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AASFSHNR
Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists and the Non-Religious
This group is named for the discussion group on http://www.kiva.org (founded by Peter Kroll) which shows that critical thinkers can (and do) act compassionately, without the need for magical sanction.
The idea for this room is to highlight the genius of the unwieldy name: a place to share and discuss content about issues of atheism/agnosticism/secular humanism from a truly skeptical and non-religious point of view.
It's difficult to label lack of belief (much like "not collecting stamps" doesn't work as a hobby). Names like "brights" are kind of lame, and neither "skeptic" nor "atheist" is comprehensive enough. Maybe AASFSHNR will catch on?
This group is named for the discussion group on http://www.kiva.org (founded by Peter Kroll) which shows that critical thinkers can (and do) act compassionately, without the need for magical sanction.
The idea for this room is to highlight the genius of the unwieldy name: a place to share and discuss content about issues of atheism/agnosticism/secular humanism from a truly skeptical and non-religious point of view.
It's difficult to label lack of belief (much like "not collecting stamps" doesn't work as a hobby). Names like "brights" are kind of lame, and neither "skeptic" nor "atheist" is comprehensive enough. Maybe AASFSHNR will catch on?
"Atheism in America" Godlessness is the last big taboo in the US, where non-believers face discrimination and isolation http://on.ft.com/xftE79 ~ “I’ve been told things like ‘I hope you have an accident, die and go to hell.’ So that’s what I’ve been up against.”
Morton Fox, Iván Abrego, Janet-The Bottley Crue and 20 other people liked this
"Psychotherapist Marlene Winell, who practises in Berkeley, California, specialises in “recovery from harmful religion” and advocates religious trauma syndrome as a psychological diagnosis. “There are so many places in the US that are just saturated with religion. Everything is interwoven – their families, their schools, their business – so that if you were not part of the club, part of the group, you get ostracised and people go through really horrible experiences of not belonging any more.” If that sounds like the experience of leaving a cult, perhaps that’s because, as Winell argues, “in its raw form, fundamentalist Christianity that believes that the Bible is the word of God is basically a giant cult.”
- The Real sofarsoShawn
From the outside, keeping your views to yourself may not seem such a problem. But this is only if you think that it’s easy to live hiding who you really are from almost everyone around you, even close family. Take Matt Elder, who lives in Festus, Missouri (pop. 11,602). When I met him in a downtown St Louis diner, he came across as a cheerful, friendly guy, not someone living under a...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
Data backs up anecdote. A now famous University of Minnesota study concluded that Americans ranked atheists lower than Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society”. Nearly 48 per cent said they “would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group” (many more than the next most unpopular category,...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
Boo hoo hoo.
- Akiva
That's an interesting reaction. I wonder how that would look under a post about about oppression of e.g. gay people.
- Eivind
Religion is a choice. Being gay isn't. It's kind of rude that you'd try to pair the two.
- Akiva
I know you think it's a choice, but it really isn't. The best I can do is to choose to pretend to believe in your gods.
- Eivind
That's absolutely ridiculous. You really believe that religion is genetic?
- Akiva
I don't know what role genetics play in people's religiosity. Why's that relevant? If I close my eyes and try really hard I still won't believe that you're one of the only real god's chosen people.
- Eivind
You don't know what role genetics play in religion yet you're sure it's not a choice?
- Akiva
I know I can't decide to suddenly believe in one or more of the proposed gods. You don't know what role genetics play in sexual orientation.
- Eivind
So you also think that homosexuality is a choice?
- Akiva
Eivind, perhaps you can't, but atheists and agnostics do every day through conversion. That is their choice.
- Kelli H.
What do you mean 'also', Akiva?
- Eivind
Answer the question. Erase the 'also' if it makes you feel more comfortable. Do you believe that homosexuality is a choice?
- Akiva
If religion isn't a choice, doesn't that suggests atheists shouldn't make fun of theists either?
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
I don't think homosexuality is a choice, Akiva. Victor, ...
- Eivind
I don't think either side should make fun of the other.
- Stephen Mack
from iPhone
Why do you think that religion is not a choice then?
- Akiva
I think religion is a choice. People pick and choose those all the time. An atheist, at least this atheist, can't just suddenly decide he now believes in one or more gods, though.
- Eivind
But you earlier typed that religion isn't a choice. You typed specifically 'I know you think it's a choice, but it really isn't.' Can you explain that?
- Akiva
The data seem to show that most people tend to stick to the religion they grew up with, or at least to something similar. Radical conversions aren't common.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
That's not essential to this conversation, Victor. I'm interested in Eivind particularly. I'm a Jewish Buddhist who was raised Catholic because his parents converted before I was born. I have a particularly unique view.
- Akiva
I didn't read your comment carefully enough, Akiva.
- Eivind
You're still not answering the question, Eivind.
- Akiva
I did. I explained why I answered the way I did.
- Eivind
I think it's relevant, Akiva
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
So you believe that religion is genetic?
- Akiva
Victor, you're wrong. You know what they say about statistics. I value Eivind more than that. I refuse to denigrate him. I want to know what HE thinks. I don't care what statistics say.
- Akiva
I am not sure. I can't rule out the possibility that genetics play a part.
- Eivind
And how do you feel about homosexuality?
- Akiva
Or are you admitting that Jews are a race?
- Akiva
It's clearly hereditary. Which is not the same as genetic. But there are structures in the brain that seem to be associated with strength of spiritual belief.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
So it's hereditary but not genetic? Jews are a race but they're not a race?
- Akiva
How can you explain that I'm not Catholic?
- Akiva
Akiva, I don't understand your questions.
- Eivind
Don't act dumb because it's convenient, Eivind. It's unbecoming of someone of your intelligence. Answer. The fucking. Question.
- Akiva
There aren't specific genetic loci that you could look at and say this person belongs to X race. I'm of the opinion that race is more of a cultural concept than a biological concept.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
Victor, do you think that homosexuality is a choice?
- Akiva
Akiva, I don't think homosexuality is a choice. I think you were right the first time when you pointed out that the discussion regarding sexuality doesn't cleanly map to the discussion regarding theism/atheism
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
Thank you. Religion IS a choice. The pressure of parents is a huge thing. It's unbelievably stressful. I refuse to impress my beliefs on my kids. I want them to do what I did, figure it out on their own. I'll support them in their choices regardless of how it might be opposite of I believe. I wonder if Eivind would do the same.
- Akiva
Atheism isn't a choice. I didn't think it would be cool to be the only person I knew that didn't believe in God. I didn't think it would be great to be different from my friends in a way they would never accept. It was a realization. I realized none of it made sense and the questions I had couldn't be answered. I realized I didn't believe. I can't choose to believe again. Choice and genetics aren't the only two options here.
- Heather
Heather, you really believe that your atheism wasn't choice? That's physically genetic?
- Akiva
It's either genetics or environment.
- Akiva
And, for the record, I absolutely respect atheism. It's far more reasonable than theism.
- Akiva
Reread my last sentence.
- Heather
Isn't atheism more like a neutral state? It's then a choice to pick (or being forced) some religion on top of that.
- Jemm
Heather, then what are the options?
- Akiva
I'd guess nuetral point would be "community model" your family friends and larger aquantances religious choice. Your reaction as you find your place on the"religion continuum" would be the question. Is it genetics, education, or...?
- WarLord
The word I believe best describes it, is the word used in my post. If you read it you would know it. Or is reading my post an attempting to understand it less desirable then asking me leading questions?
- Heather
Jemm, often yes. There are atheists, people who simply don't believe in a deity. Then there are atheists who are proselytizers, who believe it is their job to convert people. I'm not down with anyone who thinks they are in a position to dominate other people.
- Akiva
Heather, I'm honestly curious. Do you really want to challenge people rather than educate them? I may have missed your point. I'm simply interested. I value people who have opposing viewpoints. Either you want to help me or you don't.
- Akiva
@Akiva: I agree with that. I was only observing the way of thinking, not how the people act - religious or not. I don't approve of forcing anything, either.
- Jemm
"It was a realization."
- Heather
Do you believe that your realization is somehow more valuable than other people's realizations?
- Akiva
When did I say or hint at that?
- Heather
You haven't. I'm just asking.
- Akiva
I believe religion and atheism are choices, and that a good number of people don't realize they've made a choice because they've been indoctrinated since early childhood. Those folx have chosen to go along with their families', friends', community's beliefs. I think that the hate & conflict between religions, and between the religious & atheists, is a big part of what has turned me off when it comes to organized religion in general.
- Starmama
from FFHound(roid)!
Why would you think to ask me that?
- Heather
Because I'm curious. Will you answer the question?
- Akiva
No. Do you think you're choice in religion is better or makes you a better person then others?
- Heather
Starmama, proselytization is violent. I don't support it in any form.
- Akiva
Heather, absolutely not. But I'm at least willing to discuss it. You are apparently not. What does that say?
- Akiva
Do you even know my religion?
- Akiva
I am discussing it.
- Heather
Yet you refuse to answer my question. Why?
- Akiva
I did answer it.
- Heather
No, you didn't. You know it. You're smarter than that. I'll repeat it: Do you believe that your realization is somehow more valuable than other people's realizations?
- Akiva
Ok, I'll repeat my answer. No.
- Heather
Crap. Totally misread your answer.
- Akiva
Imagine that.
- Heather
That's rude. I'm honestly curious about your opinion, I've expressed nothing but respect for it. And you've come back at me as a jerk. I just wanted to understand you.
- Akiva
Oh I'm sorry, I misread your respect for snark and condescension.
- Heather
Can you prove that? Can you show me one comment I've made toward you that was snarky or condescending?
- Akiva
I said I misread you, you know the same way you snapped at me before realizing you misread me.
- Heather
And I admitted that in a kind way, deleted my comment, and essentially apologized for it. Then after that, you capitalized on my mistake. I think even your apology was based in sarcasm. I know you don't like me and honestly I don't care. But I try to treat you well. You deserve better than what I do. And I'm sorry about that. Truly.
- Akiva
Listen Akiva, I'm really sorry if you're being a polite gentleman and I'm taking it all wrong. I'm sorry if you're honestly trying to gain understanding and insight into the mind of an atheist. I love knowledge and I have a need to understand people too. I'm also not refreshing the page, I'm intently following the conversation as it happens. If that's caused problems, I'm sorry for that...
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- Heather
Akiva, is the fucking question about whether Jews are a race or how I feel about homosexuals?
- Eivind
Oh good lord, girl. I don't need you to make me look like a jerk. I'm legendary at that. I'm a total jerk. I hate people. I just think we'd both benefit if we didn't think that we were both out for each other. We don't agree on a lot of things but I absolutely refuse to disrespect you over that. If I didn't surround myself with people who disagree with me, I'd never understand myself.
- Akiva
Hey, Eivind. Welcome back to the conversation! BOTH. I want answers to both.
- Akiva
Thanks for respectfully calling me "girl".
- Heather
I was being affable! Dammit. You are a girl aren't you? You're a hell of a girl. How is that an insult?
- Akiva
I guess it's not, boy.
- Heather
Absolutely not. And if you were offended by it, I'm honestly sorry. It's just ... I dunno. Two of my most used phases are 'old boy' and 'old girl'. WHY YOU GOTTA BE SO DIFFICULT.
- Akiva
I feel about homosexuals as I feel about heterosexuals. Most people are good people, and I don't think sexual preference makes a difference. I think 'race' is a somewhat outdated term, and what we describe as different races often maps better to culture than to actual genetics. There are certainly no well defined genetic borders that separate Jews from the rest of us.
- Eivind
Ha ha remember when Shawn posted a link? OMG.
- Akiva
That's actually quite incorrect, Eivind. Jews have diseases that are specifically linked to them.
- Akiva
You also didn't answer the question. Do you think homosexuality is a choice?
- Akiva
Also, do you think that black people are a culture and not a race? Asians? Indians?
- Akiva
It's quite correct, Akiva. It's all a continuum. There aren't any well defined genetic borders anywhere. This doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.
- Eivind
So you believe that a disease is culture-related?
- Akiva
And you believe that black people are a cultural choice rather than a racial one?
- Akiva
Sure, there are single-gene mutations that have higher incidences in Jewish (specifically, Ashkenazi) populations like Tay-Sachs disease or cystic fibrosis, but you can't look at someone's genome and say, well, they're clearly Jewish.
- Victor Ganata
Akiva, I don't think you understand genetics very well.
- Eivind
Then why is that disease uniquely bonded to Jewish people?
- Akiva
I'm simply asking a question. Why won't you answer it?
- Akiva
Which disease? Tay-Sachs? Or cystic fibrosis? Non-Jews can be born with those conditions as well.
- Victor Ganata
Akiva, for someone trying to gain understanding, you seem to ask very narrow questions instead of letting people tell you what they think. I would imagine if you give people the freedom to express themselves and read it with an open mind, you'll gain much more understanding then selecting specific questions to be answered before moving on.
- Heather
That's true but Jews are more likely by a huge margin to have Tay-Sachs, for example. By a wide margin.
- Akiva
Heather, I'm just wanting my questions answered. I'm absolutely ready to admit that my questions are wrong. But I always get curious why people refuse to answer questions.
- Akiva
Akiva couldn't that be based on religion or cultural mating selection?
- Jimminy, CoG of FF
There is no one-to-one correspondence between "race" and someone's DNA makeup. There is no "black gene" or "white gene". I don't think it's possible to answer the question you're posing if someone doesn't believe in a biologically-determined concept of race.
- Victor Ganata
Jimminy, possibly. But aren't diseases genetically based? I could be totally wrong on this.
- Akiva
Victor, that's incredibly interesting. Thank you.
- Akiva
While asking questions is legitimate, accusing others of refusing to answer because they didn't respond with THE answer that you chose you would accept before you even asked the question is nonsensical.
- Chris Topher
I just want ANY answer. The refusal of any answer is suspect.
- Akiva
The problem is that the question is loaded with an unwarranted assumption: a biologically determined concept of race. It's a lot like asking someone when they stopped beating their wife.
- Victor Ganata
Akiva, yes but Tay-Sachs is going to occur more often in a population if for some reason the population limits it's own breeding patterns to members of a population known to carry recessive genetics for Tay-Sachs. *Tay-Sachs could be replaced with other genetic disorders/diseases if you want.
- Jimminy, CoG of FF
Akiva, do you think European royalty is/was a race? They had hemophilia occurring at an incredibly high rate.
- Heather
Victor, that's an answer. The lack of an answer? It's suspect. And I'm actually not passive-aggressive. I loathe it. When I ask questions, it's usually because I want to be wrong. I want to be educated. I know I come off as whatever but in reality, I just want to learn.
- Akiva
Heather, I think that's different. And it's insulting. The royals weren't killed because of who they are. I can be killed for who I am. And regardless of Victor's stance in this particular thread, he at one time backed Jewishness as a race. I can be killed for who I am. I didn't choose to be Jewish. It's my heritage. My family was killed in Germany. What does that mean? Why do I get so upset over it?
- Akiva
And why should gays not be allowed to marry? Why should they have been killed as well? And Gypsies?
- Akiva
Anyone can be killed for who they are. And I didn't know death was part of the discussion.
- Heather
Of course death is part of the conversation. Are you unfamiliar with Jasper, Texas? Are you unfamiliar with women who aren't paid properly because of their gender?
- Akiva
I thought this was about atheism and the discrimination of atheists by theists. I guess I'm on the wrong thread.
- Heather
Clearly. I want atheists to be treated with the respect that they often don't treat theists. I want atheists to be not afraid, to have equal rights. Atheists can be killed for their convictions. I'm thoroughly shocked at your ignorance. I'm religious yet I am on your side. Good grief.
- Akiva
A lot of things, I think. You have me on your side even though you possibly think I'm an idiot for my beliefs. Yet I'd fight for your beliefs. How does that work?
- Akiva
I think Jimminy's comment here is a valid consideration for the genetic disease factor (and I think Heather's example of the royal family was exactly along those lines): a population that very actively discourages or forbids intermarriage is going to have a higher incidence of particular genetic markers. I think the discussion about culture and race and Judaism is very interesting and...
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- joey
I think it came up as part of the discussion as to what characteristics of a person are and aren't a choice.
- Victor Ganata
Against my will, I agree with joey's comment.
- Akiva
Akiva, I deleted my comment, stop bringing it up.
- Heather
Ah, okay. Thanks, Victor. Well in that case: I don't have a choice about being perceived as Jewish ethnically and discriminated as such at various points in my life (regardless of whether I had been raised with the religion or culture or not) but I also don't have a choice about not being considered 'part of the tribe' or religiously Jewish (without conversion) because my mother was an...
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- joey
I missed this ^ ... I'll brb I know what Heather's meaning to say about atheism is thati it's arrived at by a sense of skepticism, whic is not just an unwillingness accept staus quo-ism. Skepticism is a provisional aproach to claims. It is the application of reason, not revelation
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
No one cares about your opinion. This is about me and Heather working out our sexual tension.
- Akiva
Hahahaa this may help Akiva :D (i think you should get Eivind some Vday sweets to charm him, all girls love chocolate <3 ... moving along... Reason applied to any and all ideas - no sacred cows allowed. Skepticism is a method requiring doubt, not a position. When we say we are "skeptical," we mean, that we must see compelling evidence before we believe. Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method which is why you find a larger % of atheist scientists than the general populace.
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
Lastly...Jimminy,Victor, & Joey *nods head* yes is right race has no genetic or biological basis. This has been thoroughly debunked. All human beings have the same ancestors from Africa….Darwin :) The physical diversity of today is purely a function of geographical accidents, climates, isolation, & wndering bands. There is simply no such thing beyond the arbitrary & the artificial of...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
Coming late to a thread makes for interesting reading. The whole "it's either a choice or it's genetic" is not quite a correct starting point though. It's not A or B like that. Anything genetic is not rigid programming, just tendencies/predispositions/higher risk. And many non genetic things are nonetheless defining. In all cases, one can go against ones programming (whether genetic or...
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- Iphigenie
Iphigenie speaks in eloquent prose what I have been pondering. Most especially the very last statement: "I see atheists that are as aggressively religious about their beliefs as some of the worst religious bigots"
- Janet-The Bottley Crue
Yeah, ultimately, I think the whole "it's a choice, or it's not" is a false binary. And I have been disgusted by atheists who feel the need to cram their beliefs down other people's throats, but, yeah, they're not necessarily representative, and it certainly doesn't justify persecution.
- Victor Ganata
from iPhone
It must be tricky in the US where a lot of the social "glue" that's left outside work is religious. People are uncomfortable with atheism, you don't need to say much to make them feel threatened - the more they have given up for their religion, the more threatening you are (same goes for any opinion that requires sacrifice, but religion is the most common). And I also think that some...
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- Iphigenie
Here in Europe atheism isn't such a big deal, but I can imagine what it is like, say, in Bible belt. I think more than anything atheists want to separate church from the state and stop things like Creationism/ID being taught at schools at the expense of real science etc. It's fine, if people want to hold on to their beliefs when it's more of personal thing instead of organized.
- Jemm
As an Atheist, my biggest issue is religion being used to create laws...i.e. gay marriage, abortion, birth control, etc.
- Chris Topher
And keeping laws/traditions in place. And as an untouchable topic.
- Heather
That ^ was one of my major hang ups, sitting through the preaching in my religious instiutions, temple & church. I always wanted to raise my hand and ask questions. Even when I got to ask whom was speaking afterwards it would go something like this: "Why? It is written!" ~ the ol' "parental because I said so" doesn't cut it when you're supposed to be an omniscent "G_d"
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
I think you'll actually find a lot of theists who agree with the goal of preventing this country from becoming a theocracy.
- Victor Ganata
Amen. A theocracy run by anyone besides a deity is not really a theocracy.
- Eric Logan
Yes, people who want to make everything they consider immoral be illegal, and everything they consider moral be compulsory... should be kept as far away from power as possible. Whether they base their sense of morality and values on a god or science.
- Iphigenie
Happy Darwin Day!! Fun fact: One of the tortoises that Darwin collected on his voyages lived to be 176 years old. She died just a few years ago, in 2006. Her name was Harriet. ~ http://biomedicalephemera.tumblr.com
Iván Abrego, Maitani, Eivind and 9 other people liked this
ddno نابود باد اسلام to ddno's feed, AASFSHNR, بالاکافر, بالاآتئیست, ایرانیان فرندفید, ایرانیان سکولار
دانشجویی از کریستوفر هیچنز می پرسد آیا این عادلانه است که او به عنوان یک آتئیست سعی می کند عقیده اکثریت جامعه مثلا مذهبی آمریکا را با عقیده اقلیت بی دین، عوض کند؟ کریستوفر می گوید: دین شما اسباب بازی محبوب شما است، تا زمانی که آنرا در خانه خود نگه داشته اید، کسی با شما کاری ندارد، اما وقتی دیگران را مجبور می کنید که به اسباب بازی شما ایمان...
The Real sofarsoShawn, ابلیس, چاخان and 41 other people liked this
بیاورند، با آن بازی کنند و از آن بدتر، جامعه را بر اساس آن اداره کنند، ما مجبور می شویم که بگوییم این اسباب بازی شما، این عیب های احمقانه را دارد و به نقد آن بپردازیم #Christopher_Eric_Hitchens
- ddno نابود باد اسلام
ویدیو با زیرنویس فارسی/این مرد مرا مغرور از انسان بودنم کرد/ گلچینی از سخنان شاهکار بی خدای معروف، کریستوفر هیچنز http://gomnamian.blogspot.com/2011...
- گمنامیان GOMNAMIAN
دلم براش تنگ شده
- sashti
داوکینز رحمتش کنه کارش درست بود
- ddno نابود باد اسلام
مگه تو آمریکا هم حکومت با مذهب اداره میشه؟
- salarralas
نه جانم حکومت کاملن سکولار هست ولی مذهب به طور سنتی در بطن جامعه وجود داره
- ddno نابود باد اسلام
Let’s Keep New Atheism Strident « Choice in Dying - http://choiceindying.com/2012...
Winckel, mina_sydney, MQ and 6 other people liked this
"Apparently, Sir David Attenborough is going to tell Kirsty Young that there is no inconsistency between evolution and belief in God. He may, perhaps, already have done so, since there is often a time lag between my picking up on the news and the events or anticipated events it records. He’s not confident enough to be an atheist, says Sir David, opening the floodgates of prediction that the shrill, strident new atheism is being replaced by a more genial, accommodating form of unbelief. But, of course, this is sheer nonsense. Those of us who are convinced, on good grounds, that there is no basis for belief in a god of any sort that would be religiously meaningful, have no intention of building atheist temples and listening to atheist sermons, even if, it seems, there are some atheists, like Alain de Botton, who think this is a good idea, and some theists, like George Pitcher, that particularly rebarbative Anglican priest, who begins his piece of Daily Mail pap with words of terrible banality:"
- Maitani
from Bookmarklet
the myth good ol myth of radical atheism
- The Real sofarsoShawn
"...just imagine what would happen if all atheists began to say the same kinds of things! There would be a return to religion in droves! People would be falling over themselves trying to get back to church and make it up to the big guy upstairs, and all the tawdriness and paltry claims of religion would begin to be made again without restraint!" Heh. This, actually, is the single most...
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- Fåruk Ahmet
I take it that he is ironically exaggerating here, because his point isn't the "danger" depicted in that part but the incompatibility of religious belief in a good god and the suffering in the world. And this he puts in a clear and stringent way. A good post; I recommend reading it.
- Maitani
Jesus and Mo - Jesus reads the Koran, so you don’t have to. - http://www.jesusandmo.net/2012...
Café ✓, mina_sydney, Kelli H. and 6 other people liked this
"It's still a bit repetitious." :)
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
God obviously likes to repeat (I also suspect that the angel Gabriel suffers from alzheimer and often forgot what he said)
- Mistaken Identity
The Real sofarsoShawn to The's feed, Funny Pics and Videos, Patheos Conversations, AASFSHNR, Philosophy
... Oh my gosh Philosoraptor, what you speak of is très controversial. What you speak of goes beyond logic and reason & falls into the abyss of BLIND faith. I'd say that's a WhammOoO00 home run Philosoraptor: a leap beyond #15's et al "divinity" & into the quantum of overlooked, everyday heroism (JHC 45:15)
Jemm, Andy Bakun, Cyber Wanderlust and 4 other people liked this
Quite the conudumb or rather conundrum? (to the terms and REFETENCES! precise).
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
I just thought it was funny.
- Heather
But it's not your joke! :P Anyhow, we (atheists and theists) end up rehashing the same stuff fairly frequently so eventually we just get silly. It's like Ricky Gervais saying "Thank God I'm an atheist." Then again, this would also be a perfect argument for the people who say "Well what if you're wrong and God does exist. You should believe, just in case."
- Heather
I'm sure the New Testament God would still love you even if you were wrong. The Old Testament God, well... he's just a mofo.
- Andy Bakun
Isn't that the god of the Jewish people, Andy?
- Eivind
"It has been rightly said, 'Where your treasure is there will your hear be also.' ~ Mathew 6:21; from Nietzsche's Preface "On the Genealogy of Morality."
ddno نابود باد اسلام, ☆彡Jazzy-B, Maitani and Eivind liked this
Yessir the words in quotations, the footnote says that's from Mathew 6:2; Nietzsche was a famous for being a bibliophile he read more books upon books than any librarian on FF I'm sure. He took up a full tenured doctorate/professorship at the age of 24.
- The Real sofarsoShawn
"Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."
- Eivind
And you're saying the printing couldn't be missing a number? It's from Mathew 6:21, if you care to look it up. Eivind, kindly shared Mathew 6:2, for you.
- Jimminy, CoG of FF
And did it say "hear" or "heart" in the text you're quoting?
- Melly Botts
Oh the joys of nitpicking!
- Maitani
Nietzsche read a lot of books / ended up misappropriated by 'Aryan' crooks / beware composers, sisters too / the guardian of your legacy ain't you
- Pete
My intention wasn't nitpicking, I was genuinely curious as to whether or not the word in the quoted text is that which Shawn has written, or "heart" as it appears in the Bible.
- Melly Botts
Thank you Maitani. That one says both "heart" and "Matthew 6:21".
- Melly Botts
whoops, thanks Johnny & Maitani (editing to 6:2 to 6:21), c'est mon fault // all my fault, I missed the 1 *face palm*, you're correct. My bible verse memorization ain't what it used to be since catechism; I was typing/reading too quickly. ~Things have suddenly become busy at work, my socnet correspondence is falling behind
- The Real sofarsoShawn
It made me look the text up and read a bit into it. I felt quite drawn into it... Was there a special reason why you posted this particular quote (just being curious)?
- Maitani
‘How do atheists find meaning in life?’ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...
Kelli H., Lit, istem and 8 other people liked this
"The correspondent was blunt: “Why don’t you atheists just go out and kill yourselves right now?” True, most Christians phrase it rather more delicately, but atheists are regularly informed by a certain kind of believer that our lives can have no value if we do not believe in their God. What is the point, they ask, of being kind or loving, caring about suffering or doing anything at all, if one day we just die?"
- Eivind
"This is a perverse view of reality. After all, if the only valuable thing about existence is that God gave it to us, then that must mean the gift is not worth having in its own right. God’s creation would be the equivalent of a shapeless, baggy sweater of dubious color that you would never willingly wear but which you nevertheless can’t bring yourself to throw away because it was a...
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- Eivind
Humanism: "The very fact that this life is all we have makes it even more important to do everything possible to reduce the suffering caused by poverty, disease, injustice and ignorance."
- Heather
I believe in life before death :)
- Eivind
I was raised Catholic. And even after renouncing Catholicism, I believed in some sort of afterlife. I'm not so sure now. And since becoming unsure, it's become that much more important to me to wring what I can out of the life I have. (n.b. When Catholic, I wasn't raised to believe that nothing in this life counted because there was an afterlife...)
- Spidra Webster
I think the puritanism and pietism on the Protestant branch of Christianity are much worse than Catholicism when it comes to sucking the fun out of life, Spidra.
- Eivind
I would have to agree with that although it seems that since the Reagan era, the more right wing Catholic parishes have been hanging out with the fundamentalist Prostestant sects and picking up more killjoy habits.
- Spidra Webster
They still have some work to do to catch up with the Wahhabi, though :)
- Eivind
"I would rather belong to that race that commenced a skulless vertebrate and produced Shakespeare, a race that has before it an infinite future with the angel of progress leaning from the far horizon beckoning men forward upward and onward forever. I had rather belong to such a race commencing there producing this and with that hope than to have sprung from a perfect pair upon which the Lord has lost money every moment from that day to this." - Robert Green Ingersoll, 1896 :)
- Ken Morley
The Real sofarsoShawn to The's feed, AASFSHNR, just smile, Funny Pics and Videos, Patheos Conversations, Heather, Eivind
An Atheist Upon Emigrating To The USA
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"On the Genealogy of Morality & Other Writings"
by Friedrich Nietzsche, Keith Ansell-Pearson (Editor), Carol Diethe (Translator) Goodreads | sofarsoShawn ~ "currently-reading" - http://www.goodreads.com/review...
Moody (Sweet FA 4 Life), Eivind, Maitani and 2 other people liked this
I should read more Nietzsche. I think I've held off b/c I tell myself I should read it all in German when, really, I don't have to.
- Katy S
May I also recommend finding the translations done by Walter Kaufmann, who wrote the excellent work, *Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist*, as well as many other outstanding works.
- Moody (Sweet FA 4 Life)
Dude is eminently quotable.
- Brent
Come to think of it, Shawn, you kind of philosophize with a hammer, too #NotAEuphemism
- Brent
Ahahaa thanks Brent, yes I cut to the marrow no pun intended on my BMT; I have put up with it in the past, and through that I have learned not suffer fools
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
I think I'm too stupid for Nietzsche. I feel I stumble upon these little compressed nuggets of wisdom here and there, but in between there's a lot of 'WTF?'
- Eivind
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't understand a word.
- Melly Botts
Lol no one's too stupid, he just seems intimidating, and Katy S you don't worry about the German thing to read it "properly". Some translations (ex. this Cambridge one) can be just as fulfilling: The first time I read N's stuff was a lil baby step with his essay "On the Use & Abuse of History" (very excellent btw) one of his ironic Untimely Meditations. Nextly, Eivind I just remembered...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
Oh, I've read some in German before (I've taken an obscene amount of German coursework). He really isn't that bad to read in German, which is why I tell myself that I should. English would just be a lot faster for me.
- Katy S
I know what you mean, that's like me with the Franch, I do read Voltaire, Montaigne <- he gets a <3, Derrida, Rousseau etc en français, being from Québec I'm technically bi-lingual, (although we're not considered pure blood francophones by descent (mudbloods :). But I also find worth in reading English trans to further my understanding ie different way to explain/look at things. It almost feels as though I'm betraying my heritage, but whatevs it's not.
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
The hammer in question was, btw, according to Nietzsche, the tiny hammer used to detect hollow spots. Not a hammer designed for smashing. Just FYI in case someone wasn't sure about it.
- Moody (Sweet FA 4 Life)
Moody: I understood that it a double-meaning: a hammer, to smash, and a tuning-fork type thing to see if the idols are hollow. In case you weren't sure.
- Brent
In his introduction (The Twilight of the Idols), he speaks of the tuning-fork type of hammer, but in "The Hammer Speaks" at the end of the essay, he speaks of the need to be "hard."
- Brent
Yes, certainly. But overall the idea was that what was hollow would with a little effort shatter or break up. It is a common misunderstanding—one I was not actually ascribing to anyone, but rather for the sake of the unknown reader who might be new to Nietzsche—that he is advocating gleefully smashing (violently) what he perceives as "false idols".
- Moody (Sweet FA 4 Life)
Oh, yeah I gotcha, I was referring to his characteristic aphoristic, non-prolix writing style, he doesn't mince words, cuts to the chase, when I commented "cut to the marrow" (and there using too many adjectives, was an example of the opposite); consequent to his succinctness his why he's so "eminently quotable". WWND What Would Nietzsche do? He's doesn't hide behind vagueness or verbosity, he's comes out loud and clear where he stands.
- The Real sofarsoShawn
Manta Rays Endangered by Sudden Demand from Chinese Medicine | Extinction Countdown, Scientific American Blog Network - http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinct...
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"Demand for the gills of manta and mobula rays has risen dramatically in the past 10 years for use in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), even though they were not historically used for this purpose, a team of researchers from the conservation organizations Shark Savers and WildAid has discovered. [...] TCM practitioners are marketing the rakers—known locally as peng yu sai—as an ingredient for soup that they claim boosts the immune system by reducing toxins and enhancing blood circulation. Other supposed medical benefits include curing cancer, chickenpox, throat and skin ailments, male kidney issues and, as we often see with TCM, fertility issues."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
:^( Humans suck.
- Friar Will (:^)
When they just make shit up anyway, why do they always have to go after the rare and endangered species? :(
- Eivind
:( :(
- Tamara J.
:( They should start huffing, or whatever it is they do, invasive species.
- Heather
meh
- esther
The Real sofarsoShawn liked this
In Atheists We Distrust: Scientific American - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article...
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"Atheists are one of the most disliked groups in America. Only 45 percent of Americans say they would vote for a qualified atheist presidential candidate, and atheists are rated as the least desirable group for a potential son-in-law or daughter-in-law to belong to. Will Gervais at the University of British Columbia recently published a set of studies looking at why atheists are so disliked. His conclusion: It comes down to trust."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
"It wasn’t just the highly religious participants who expressed a distrust of atheists. People identifying themselves as having no religious affiliation held similar opinions. Gervais and his colleagues discovered that people distrust atheists because of the belief that people behave better when they think that God is watching over them. This belief may have some truth to it. Gervais...
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- Eivind
"Gervais and Norenzayan’s findings may shed light on an interesting puzzle: why acceptance towards atheism has grown rapidly in some countries but not others. In many Scandinavian countries, including Norway and Sweden, the number of people who report believing in God has reached an all-time low. This may have something to do with the way these countries have established governments...
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- Eivind
Related: http://live.washingtonpost.com/why-do-...
- Heather
Do you think this fear of 'coming out' as an atheist is so prevalent as that Q&A makes it seem, Heather? Is the discrimination real?
- Eivind
I particularly like this quote from the Washington Post article:
- Friar Will (:^)
As the religious scholars all noted, what binds those of faith is exactly that: faith. One has to have faith in their beliefs in Christianity and in God. Since religion is about faith, shouldn't those of faith understand that those without faith, people who demand evidence and hard facts, are not going to accept something on faith. Why can't the faithful embrace their faith and not be...
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- Friar Will (:^)
Absolutely. I have avoided telling my parents I'm an atheist, including when my mom found out about the AASFSHNR Kiva group and I promptly told her the name covered all sorts of people, not just atheists. Offline, I can't remember telling more then a handful of people that I'm an atheist. Chris is the only person I actively talk to about it.
- Heather
I have no fear about being openly atheist, though that's probably thanks to the tolerance levels of the people I associate with. I already have dealt with being black in America and female all my life. I am cautious not to bring up my atheism any more than is necessary. I don't feel like I need to rub it in. My Dad and my youngest sister have become devout Christians recently (more than they were when I was younger) and we're mutually respectful of each other's views.
- Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)
The Real sofarsoShawn to The's feed, Funny Pics and Videos, The Solidarity Project, AASFSHNR, Patheos Conversations, Sports Talk 2.0
I love #Tebow, proof to the point religion is sh*t loser, maybe just prayer harder next time and get down on your knees more often it increases the signal, so next time you’ll win. Riiigghhht Or maybe he’s been praying to the wrong g_D this whole time. Whooooops, jokes on you hehhehhehee :D // God be with you. Quel perdant!
Shawn, if you think the point of prayer is to obtain victory, you're missing the point.
- Johnny
Hater much?
- Mo Kargas
Thanks for being the voice of tolerance and acceptance.
- I like big Botts
It's an easy target and a simple argument to make... This argument has the EXACT same validity as me saying that all the bad things that have happened in Shawn's life is because he DOSEN'T pray... But I don't make that argument because as Mathew 6 goes onto say... "does worrying add another hour to your life?"
- Johnny
from iPhone
48% of people polled thought divine intervention played a part in how well he was doing. I think that means 48% of people polled believed that God wanted Tebow to win football games. Maybe Tebow isn't praying for that, but at least some people think the point of God being involved in sports is to pick the winning team.
- Heather
I believe Tebow himself has said that God doesn't care who wins a football game
- Glenn Slaven
I know what that's like. When the Pats were caught filming on the sidelines people really flipped at anyone who was a fan.
- Heather
Now I don't mind a good ribbing, and a lot of the comedy is funny, but translating football to religion and back again is just kind of weird. There are lots of players that believe lots of different things. To put too much personal capital into an athlete is a mistake in my opinion.
- Eric
from iPhone
I think when people are very visible and outspoken on a subject, they open themselves to criticism for what they do and say as much as they open themselves to praise.
- Heather
Lol quite exactly Heather. No problemo :), doubtless some will take offense at my POV on religion, but I don't care I don't ignore the facts of the matter. Religion has for the greatest part been and still remains, an affliction in human affairs, and cannot be omitted from discussion of the considered life. Have you ever been hated and discriminated against for just because who you are?...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
All that is a FOOTNOTE! to the focus of this post, so those more personal comments I'm not going to address except to say, reread & reread again the above comment, to understand. Oh and yes like Heather said very revealing...interesting
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
I don't take offence at your POV on religion. I do get kinda pissed off at you being a fucking asshole about it, though.
- Melly Botts
To be fair, when people push faith and religion, it's rarely recognized and reacted to to the same degree people react to criticism of faith and religion.
- Heather
x_X
- Derrick
I fail to see how a post like this proves your point, Shawn. If you feel the need to be this viscous to express yourself, perhaps you need to examine your rationale. You sound self-righteous and petulant, but have no problems tearing into others who apparently exhibit the same behavior. Hell I even understand good old fashioned heated debates, but this just smacks of "I think I'm right,...
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- Mo Kargas
Listen, I take no issue in you taking issue with the public opinions with a specific person, but all the "Broncos deserved it" crap is uncalled for. It's just football and to roll me up as a supporter of someone's personal politics or religion when I'm supporting the team I've rooted for for many years, that is just tacky shit.
- Eric
I think that this post wasn't meant in any way to attack anyone's personal beliefs. We should all be entitled to our own beliefs and opinions, right?
- Tamara J.
from FFHound(roid)!
I don't know Tam - "religion is shit, loser" kind of says a lot IMO.
- Melly Botts
I have to agree with Mo and Melly on this one. I don't see any qualitative difference between evangelical religious people and evangelical atheists - so self-assured they know the answer that they dismiss everyone else as stupid and/or doomed. Good luck with that.
- Bren
"Is it one prayer? No, it is two- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of His Who hearth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this-keep it in mind. If you beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time."
- Eivind
I think it's interesting that the assumption is Tebow's praying for his own success, and not offering thanks for the blessings he feels he has received. I would be curious to hear what he has to say on the matter.
- Bren
The Non Sports Fan’s Guide to Tim Tebow Everybody is talking about Tim Tebow. Except for you. Who is Tim Tebow? http://gawker.com/5875125... OMG SOOOoo FUNNNEEEE! That bottom link is AWESOME!
Maitani, Brent, Yogesh Kumar and Eivind liked this
The Non Sports Fan’s Guide to Tim Tebow Everybody is talking about Tim Tebow. Except for you. Who is Tim Tebow? you're asking yourself, after spending 10 minutes nodding silently while coworkers discussed his game this weekend against the Patriots. (What sport is this? you are probably also asking. For the record: football.) It's okay, non sports fan: here is your exclusive guide to Tim Tebow. Who is Tim Tebow? Tim Tebow is the starting quarterback (that's the main guy who throws the ball) for the Denver Broncos and former quarterback of the University of Florida Gators, where he won a national championship and a Heisman trophy (College Sports for "Oscar"). He was, before that, a home-schooled high-school football star, and was controversially allowed to choose the team he wanted to play for. Before that, he was a fetus. (His time as a fetus is important to an understanding of Tebow: more about it later.) What is Tebowing? Can I Tebow? How? Tebowing is the act of kneeling down for a...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
Is Tim Tebow good at football? No. Really? Well, he's better at football than, say... me? He's a good athlete and a good runner. He tends to have a few terrific moments every game, especially in the fourth quarter. There are plenty of people who will tell you that he is a good, or even a great quarterback. But the thing is, he can't throw. I mean, literally, he can throw a football: he...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
LOL. Thanks, Shawn :) ""Scrappy white guy uses grit, determination, and his faith in God to win miraculously under pressure" is what most people here think of as a good summary of the New Testament." :D
- Eivind
Scrappy white guy's team got pwned the other night.
- Joe The Sausage
I guess it's true what they say, "God moves in mysterious ways."
- Eivind
Give me a break. He's a good football player. It's just that his strengths and weaknesses don't exactly match the team and play-style of the NFL. I think he's a good kid but all the hype surrounding him has got out of control. When it comes down to it, the Broncos are making the best of what they got and Tebow is trying his best.
- Rodfather
from iPhone
Jesus H. Christ 45:10 - Hallelujah jesus answered my prayer, whatta fuckn #loser; good guys win bad guys lose. Should've prayed harder
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
I want this for my car
“ADOPT AN ATHEIST” CAMPAIGN BEGINS | The Catholic League ~ awwwww PLEASE SAVE US! ~ or maybe we should start an adopt a Catholic to set it straight - http://www.catholicleague.org/adopt-a...
Maitani, Cyber Wanderlust, Eivind and Heather liked this
"Catholic League president Bill Donohue explains why the Catholic League is starting a new initiative aimed at atheists: Approximately 80 percent of Americans are Christian, and 96 percent celebrate Christmas. Of the 20 percent who are not Christian, non-believers make up the largest segment, though the number of self-identified atheists is tiny. David Silverman, president of American Atheists, knows this to be true, which is why he is frantically trying to inflate his base. “We want people to realize that there may be atheists in their family,” he told the New York Times, “even if those atheists don’t even know they are atheists.” We think there is some merit in David’s idea, even if he has things backwards, as usual. Today we are launching our “Adopt An Atheist” campaign, the predicate of which is, “We want atheists to realize that there may be Christians in their community, even if those Christians don’t even know they are Christian.”
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from Bookmarklet
"Here’s what our campaign entails. We are asking everyone to contact the American Atheist affiliate in his area [click here], letting them know of your interest in “adopting” one of them. All it takes is an e-mail. Let them know of your sincere interest in working with them to uncover their inner self. They may be resistant at first, but eventually they may come to understand that they...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHA :D LMAO I love it.
- The Real sofarsoShawn
Yeah you fundy moralizing charlatans, get your fraudulent ponzi scheme out of legal judgements and try to force it on others. Fwd: Photo: dead-logic: http://tmblr.co/ZAnTayEiHn69 (via http://friendfeed.com/barrywy...)
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NOMA: Non-overlapping magisteria (Wikipedia): "The magisterium of science covers the empirical realm: what the Universe is made of (fact) and why does it work in this way (theory). The magisterium of religion extends over questions of ultimate meaning and moral value. These two magisteria do not overlap [...]" -- Stephen Jay Gould - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
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1999 statement from the National Academy of Sciences: "Scientists, like many others, are touched with awe at the order and complexity of nature. Indeed, many scientists are deeply religious. But science and religion occupy two separate realms of human experience. Demanding that they be combined detracts from the glory of each."
- Stephen Mack
from Bookmarklet
Never the twain shall meet?
- Stephen Mack
I'm more swayed by the arguments in the Criticism section, though, especially Susan Jacoby's.
- Stephen Mack
Yeah, there's a bit of fallacy in that quote (that can be found here: http://ff.im/Nz4Pk). Science and religion are apposite they quite hardly ever meet & if they do, it's no longer science, unless what's that search for the god molecule deal with physics now? That's different though
- The Real sofarsoShawn
There's an interface between the two realms, but I agree with the idea that you can't really use religion to answer questions that can be answered with empiricism, and you can't really use science to answer moral or ethical questions.
- Victor Ganata
I am not impressed with the NOMA. It would be nice if religion wouldn't interfere with science, but I don't agree that morals should belong to the magisterium of religion.
- Eivind
OTOH, most human beings are interested in both how the way the universe works, and the way we should treat each other, so there's always going to be some overlap.
- Victor Ganata
Agreed, organized religion shouldn't have a monopoly on ethics and morality. But I don't think you can devise humane systems of ethics and morality from observation and experiment.
- Victor Ganata
It seems like a compromise, but I don't think compromise is a dirty word. While I personally am an atheist, I enjoy discussing theism and do my best to be respectful of the beliefs of theists. NOMA seems like an interesting model for peaceful coexistence.
- Stephen Mack
You can analyze it and describe it, Victor, but it is not something that you can implement in a society (on a short time scale anyway). It is an organic part of the culture that evolves and transfers memes with bordering cultures, but it is not well suited for domestication and directed breeding :)
- Eivind
Ah, Shawn, I missed your November post when you originally posted it. But even if oil and water don't mix, both oil and water are important parts of the human experience.
- Stephen Mack
what Eivinder said ^ (now two comments above) just beause you don't believe in a god, doesn't mean you're an evil person or bad person (it seems to be quite otherwise) Morals and ethics, can be sought and further understood outside the realm of dogma and "thou shalt not.
- The Real sofarsoShawn
^ agreed, but that's sort of an aside from the topic at hand
- The Real sofarsoShawn
Oil and water do mix though, in an emulsion, you just have to shake them together really hard and add stabilization agents.
- Todd Hoff
Religion and science do mix though, in reality, you just have to bang your heads together really hard and add stabilization agents.
- Stephen Mack
Western civilization is an emulsion :) Sometimes it separates out and you have to shake it up again.
- Victor Ganata
Honestly, while I don't know how I feel about the concept, I must say I do love the elegance and poetry of Stephen Jay Gould's words, and I really just love the phrase "non-overlapping magisteria."
- Stephen Mack
Typical...Eivinder and I have the exact same shirts*!!? ~ (actually no we don't, I'm just poking fun at myself, and him I guess, he got caught in the crossfire) #AtheistShirts
Dickbuttkick, Maitani, Heather and 4 other people liked this
*poke*
- The Real sofarsoShawn
:-P
- Eivind
Why do you share the same shits? :p
- Jimminy, CoG of FF
We're both huge believers in the paleolithic diet.
- Eivind
We're doing the sex and sometimes in the morning we pick up the other dudes shirt
- The Real sofarsoShawn
*Eivinder and I have the exact same SHITS!!?* oh, ROFL
- Cyber Wanderlust
LOLOmgereeee, editing.... :D though it depends I guess some times we share our food like in restos, It's very romantic, so same that goes in, same that goes out // CITATION! * indicates correction of shits to shirts
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
The Real sofarsoShawn to The's feed, US Politics, AASFSHNR, Life Celebrates Diversity, Not All Crazy Is Good, The Solidarity Project
Pope Benedict XVI: Gay Marriage A Threat To 'Future Of Humanity' | Pope wins & beats Santorum's homosexuality is bestiality with this TKO'ing uppercut that it threatens, "human dignity and the future of humanity itself." As though being gay was a nuclear warhead, oh really now? Go to hell Pedo Bear ~ "Religion is the opiate of the dumb assess." - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012...
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#CivilRights #LGBTQ | VATICAN CITY, Jan 9 (Reuters) - Pope Benedict said on Monday that gay marriage was one of several threats to the traditional family that undermined "the future of humanity itself". The pope made some of his strongest comments against gay marriage in a new year address to the diplomatic corps accredited to the Vatican in which he touched on some economic and social issues facing the world today. He told diplomats from nearly 180 countries that the education of children needed proper "settings" and that "pride of place goes to the family, based on the marriage of a man and a woman." "This is not a simple social convention, but rather the fundamental cell of every society. Consequently, policies which undermine the family threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself," he said. The Vatican and Catholic officials around the world have protested against moves to legalise gay marriage in Europe and other developed parts of the world. One leading opponent of...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
The Roman Catholic Church, which has some 1.3 billion members worldwide, teaches that while homosexual tendencies are not sinful, homosexual acts are, and that children should grow up in a traditional family with a mother and a father. "The family unit is fundamental for the educational process and for the development both of individuals and states; hence there is a need for policies...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
Now here, I'd thought I'd already heard it all with Santorum, guess it's not quite done yet. Righteous hate goes on.
- The Real sofarsoShawn
The Commentator - The rise of atheism in Pakistan - http://www.thecommentator.com/article...
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"Hazrat Nakhuda: Atheist groups and movements are a global trend. PAA is a part of that but it is different. The problem is that most of the groups for freethinkers are in secular countries. In my view the battle for reason, rationality and freethinking doesn’t need to be fought (with urgency) in England, Holland or Canada. It is here, in countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia where we need to fight the battle for reason. It is here where the battle will be the most hard-hitting, it is here where reason needs to triumph, and it is here where we can’t afford to lose. Almost every Muslim-majority country is under-developed economically or socially. I believe that when a religion is adopted by a state it stifles progress. Pakistanis are running 40,000 Madrasas but 30 percent of the children under the age of 5 are malnourished. We missed our millennium goals to eradicate polio because we couldn’t run the refrigerators that housed the vaccine, but we spent a fortune on the...
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- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
"HN: Right now most Pakistanis aren’t even aware that there is an option to not believe in God; they don’t question the existence of God and generally don’t believe that Atheists exist. What is more, according to a Gallup poll, 78 percent of Pakistanis believe that a person who leaves Islam should be killed. And finally, Pakistan has very strict blasphemy laws. If I get to change these three things in my life time, I would die a happy man."
- Eivind
End of Atheism and Free Thinking in India: Court sets deadline for social networking sites to remove all “anti-religious” or “anti-social” content - http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tec...
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"Setting a deadline for 22 social networking sites including the Facebook, the Google, the Yahoo and the Microsoft to remove all “anti-religious” or “anti-social” content, a Delhi court on Saturday directed the companies to file compliance reports by February 6. Additional Civil Judge Mukesh Kumar, who had on December 20 in a ex-parte order issued summons to the social networking websites, granted around one and half month for compliance of his order."
- April
from Bookmarklet
"Minority faiths like pagan are considered as superstitious beliefs and they'll be taken care of under anti-superstitious belief bill. Atheism has negative impact on people as per indian thinking. Bombing in the name of religion is considered as atheist act, not religious as per these spiritually religious folks. You can't beat their logic. " http://www.donationcoder.com/forum...
- April
this is so sick and sad. - /me dislikes this
- Dickbuttkick
typical religious arrogant ignorance (anapestic tetrameter a classical latin poetic rhyme; more contemporary examples include Byron's "The Destruction of Sennacheri" and Eminem's "The Way I Am" and the meter I just wrote above :)
- The Real sofarsoShawn
Casus belli ~ RELIGION: The Number One Cause of War
grizabella, SteVe C, Kelli H. and 14 other people liked this
" intolerance, oppression of women, bigotry...etc etc" commented by way of Chloé elsewhere on the intterwebz
- The Real sofarsoShawn
I don't believe there's ever been a war that wasn't started by a government or a political leader of some sort. Their reasons for arousing the masses into violent fervor vary with changing cultural winds. Religion has been a popular war cry because most people are religious. Political leaders co-opt religious speech and ideas to gain support.
- Kevin L
War is politics. Modern war is more about greed and coveting resources, land, political maneuvering, just look at how many nations the US has invaded since WWII (religious reasons?). Intolerance and bigotry aren't the exclusive domain of the religions. It's standard atheist operating procedure to point the finger solely at religion, but the facts don't add up - it trivializes the more basic causes.
- Mo Kargas
So the definition widens to any political philosophy, and simplifies to anything people can potentially passionately disagree over.
- Mo Kargas
Oi! Mo's back?!? I feel I should acquiesce just in honor, that is if I didn't know better, hey I teach our world's youth. My re-butt is as follows: ~ A knowledge of history proves otherwise. Nuff said there. Nextly, you're making the mistake of conflating religion with nationalism as samsies this mixed &with a clear misunderstanding of atheism & proper debate mechanisms. Now...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
Now on to atheism...Atheism is not a belief or value system, atheism is a rejection of belief in a deity, only. So unlike religion it does not over generalize, ie straw man fallacy (another debate thingy) & point fingers at Muslims, homosexuals, or socialism, anything they regard as different as the cause of all that's wrong with the world: ex if only they believed in Helios, the one true G_D of the sun, then our nation's problems would be solved, we'd be saved & have eternal life. ~what's up next?
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
I didn't actually say religion was the cause of *all* war (as inferred from the number one cause) - in fact I said the politicization of an idea is always the cause of all wars. A knowledge of history does not prove otherwise conclusively - indeed, can you definitively prove that religion is the number one cause. Even the Crusades can be debated as being economically driven. Sure there...
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- Mo Kargas
Okay you're still mistaking or misunderstanding what's already been established. Yes it can be proven conclusively & definitely especially the crusades and even up to this president day, is it 100% science no of course not. No historical account ever is, so does that mean that all history is lie? Ridiculous, one regards historical accounts as facts to the matter, empirical evidence &...
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
If you want an example of religion synonymous with nationalism, you just have to look at Nazi Germany, this *is* well documented. You also haven't answered my point, that any idea that can be politicized can be fought over of which religion is but one cause. Inferring religion is the number one cause of war requires evidence and precedence, which we would get from recorded history, and...
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- Mo Kargas
Sorry MoKa but right now I'm got something important to do, but I'm starting to get what you're meaning to say, so will for get back to you, swear to god :) And good to see you back, if I knew all it took was some religulous one liner post I would've done it sooner. @_@ PEW PEW PEW ~ that's the sound of me blasting you with my lazers (Oi, and yes this isn't just Mo & I's thread anyone feel free to jump in)
- The Real sofarsoShawn
from FFHound!
One of the first things to do is step back and define "religion" -- "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods." Religion is a belief in a superhuman power, not *exclusive to belief in god*, just *especially* as it applies to a belief in god; however, the actual meaning is reserved for belief in/worship of a superhuman power. Spiritual...
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- Prosey BUTTONS!
I'm going to have to step in here & stop this dumbfounded downard spiral of BS. When hell freezes over and when in political science I have studied a divine book of religion as THE LAW, or if I moved to Iran, then there'd be some merit of truth to this. But we don't and there isn't. Insightful, nonetheless because I better understand now, yesssir, nothing gets through the bubble....
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- The Real sofarsoShawn
Cant think of witty title, here you go - Imgur - http://imgur.com/gallery/i2bbm
Kristina Lovric, The Real sofarsoShawn, ddno نابود باد اسلام and 3 other people liked this
ahh, just what they need!
- grizabella
easy pr(a)y
- Dickbuttkick
I've just joined (liked) the "Jesus Is My Homeboy" phenomenon on Facebook and you should too. ~ They have hawt shirts ;) ~ see below - http://www.facebook.com/Officia...
ddno نابود باد اسلام and Eivind liked this
hem yakışıklı hem kaslı O.o
- Anatewka
I totally want that hawt...shirt
- The Real sofarsoShawn
THE TOWEL HOOK demotivational poster Comments - http://www.motifake.com/faceboo...
grizabella, ddno نابود باد اسلام, Kep_numberg and Eivind liked this
Global Christianity - A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World' s Christian Population- Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life - http://pewforum.org/Christi...
ddno نابود باد اسلام, Kelli H., Friar Will (:^) and 4 other people liked this
"The number of Christians around the world has nearly quadrupled in the last 100 years, from about 600 million in 1910 to more than 2 billion in 2010. But the world’s overall population also has risen rapidly, from an estimated 1.8 billion in 1910 to 6.9 billion in 2010. As a result, Christians make up about the same portion of the world’s population today (32%) as they did a century ago (35%). This apparent stability, however, masks a momentous shift. Although Europe and the Americas still are home to a majority of the world’s Christians (63%), that share is much lower than it was in 1910 (93%). And the proportion of Europeans and Americans who are Christian has dropped from 95% in 1910 to 76% in 2010 in Europe as a whole, and from 96% to 86% in the Americas as a whole."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
10 countries with the largest number of Christians: USA, Brazil, Mexico, Russia, Philippines, Nigeria, China, DR Congo, Germany, Ethiopia.
- Eivind
Germany?!
- سيما كيا Sima kia
Lutheranism.
- Akiva
I find the ~60M number for Germany very suspect, but if their system is anything like ours, most people would actively have to de-register from the church to stop being counted as Christians.
- Eivind
@ سيما كيا Sima kia I'm living in Germany and yes there are quite a lot of Christians here, especially in Bavaria (the pope btw. is from the region, close to where I grew up). there are a bit more than ~81 Mio people living in Germany, so 58M people could be true on the paper. you get hammered by Christianity early in schools here. But most of MY friends (including me) are either agnostics, or atheists, or Christians only on the paper who are not very devoted to Christianity.
- Dickbuttkick
Dickbuttkick, couple of my close relatives are German and I have traveled in Germany a few times. I have not noticed religion much in my conversations. It may be true that they are considered religious in the sense that they go to church for certain occasions and traditions, but for whatever reason Germans have not struck me as being religious. On the other hand I can easily believe...
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- سيما كيا Sima kia
Many people here do not appear as decidedly Christian/religious, and religion is not much of a conversational topic, but try and criticize the Christian religion (the belief, not its institutions), and before long you'll realize that this is socially taboo. I think most people regard the Christian faith as an ethical force, a pillar of the Western society, the source of "our values" or...
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- Maitani
I would argue that most "Christians" are thus in name only. Even in the heavily religious United States only about 12% of Christians attend church on a weekly basis, even though more than 30% report doing so.
- Friar Will (:^)
Do you think church attendance is a good measure, though, Will? I agree that people not attending church or other houses of worship are probably more heterodox in their beliefs, so maybe they're not counted as Christian by everyone? What I see (or how I interpret what I see) in Norway, is that more of the religiously inclined people are sort of customizing their religions to suit...
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- Eivind
Church going is a problematic measure owing to the cultural factors already mentioned; people going as they feel they ought to, or were brought up to etc. The state church aspect is not so strong here, in so far as there is no assumption you're CoE from birth :) I was baptised, but not confirmed. None of my brothers were baptised.
- Pete
Holocaust Images in Ultra-Orthodox Protest Anger Israeli Leaders - NYTimes.com - http://www.nytimes.com/2012...
The Real sofarsoShawn, ddno نابود باد اسلام, Fossil Huntress and 7 other people liked this
"The protesters numbered only a few hundred, but in the current climate of discord and animosity, the use of children and Holocaust imagery was calculated to cause the maximum aggravation. Organizers distributed yellow stars printed with the word “Jude,” German for Jew, which some demonstrators pinned onto their coats. One little boy was instructed to pose for cameras with his hands raised in surrender, mimicking a famous photograph of a small, frightened Jewish boy surrendering to the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto during World War II."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
And such a noble cause they're fighting for too: their right to be assholes because some ancient texts tell them to.
- Eivind
they lament over what the nazis did, but do not realize that they are behaving likewise racist towards Palestinians today because of that ancient text http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- Dickbuttkick
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