only because it was "Muslim proselytizing”, of course. - Anthony Citrano

*sigh* - vicster

It's a shame that Muslim proselytizing sometimes involves guns and bombs. - Akiva Moskovitz

As does Christian proselytizing, Akiva. - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

The actions of one group don't necessarily excuse the similar actions of another group. - Akiva Moskovitz

"Christianity learned toleration only recently. Judaism centuries ago. Islam has not yet had this experience"-. Lord Sacks. Because we are a secular and tolerant society Mr. Hassan was given the opportunity to rise to the rank of Major in our armed forces. This same opportunity would not exist in an Islamic country. - Eric Logan

Akiva: in no way did I mean to excuse the actions of anyone. The point Anthony was making, as I read it, was that Muslim proselytizing should have been a red flag, whereas other (i.e. Christian) proselytizing would not. My point is that both have a recent history of violence attached. - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

Eric: you mean an Islamic country like Iraq where, under Sadam, one of the top government/military officials was Christian? - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

Generalizations and stereotypes, ftl - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

I should clarify that the point was not Anthony's, but that he was pointing out the inherent bigotry in Ms. Vargas's statement. - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

No I don't mean like Iraq as it was a secular government, Bren. I mean like an Islamic government that operates under sharia law. - Eric Logan

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification. - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

Eric: is your point that the US should become more like a country that operates under sharia, or that tolerance has a price? - Cole Jolley

Bren, I'm just tired of the implication that we're not allowed to suggest that Islam could possibly be behind the motives of someone's bad actions without the PC hand-patting. Maybe it's just me but I get nervous whenever I hear someone say, 'Allahu akbar,' and I guess that's an unintended side effect of Islamic terrorism. I guess the next time a Jew goes into some building and starts shooting people while screaming, 'Sholem aleichem,' it'll all seem more equalized to me. - Akiva Moskovitz

I think at anytime anyone of us could raise a red flag - VAL D.

I get your point, Akiva. Unfortunately, I think that the Muslim terrorists have tainted the view of all Muslims. Since Judaism doesn't really have a tradition of evangelism, the sort of religio-cultural terrorism practiced by Muslims and Christians is unlikely in the extreme to be practiced by Jews. I wonder, though, if Palestinians feel similarly uncomfortable when they see a Jew driving a bulldozer? - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

Probably not, Bren, because Israeli citizens don't have a history of randomly attacking Arab citizens. - Akiva Moskovitz

Akiva, there have been some Jewish cases as well: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisd... - Eivind

And I repeat, for the nth time: the actions of Group A do not excuse similar actions by Group B. - Akiva Moskovitz

While that's true, Akiva, I would suggest your original statement would be better stated as "It's a shame that proselytizing sometimes involves guns and bombs." Because it is, regardless of religion (or lack thereof). - FFing Enigma (aka Tina)

It was a response to this statement, Akiva: "I guess the next time a Jew goes into some building and starts shooting people while screaming, 'Sholem aleichem,' it'll all seem more equalized to me." Or was the screaming the point? - Eivind

But, Tina, in this case, we're talking about a particular incident. - Akiva Moskovitz

Tolerance certainly has its price and we should remain vigilant about intolerance wherever it exists. Failing to recognize and confront intolerance only emboldens fundamentalism. - Eric Logan

I second Tina, there. Proselytizing, insofar as it includes violence, is wrong. It is no more or less wrong when it is a Muslim doing the proselytizing. - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

And I never wrote that it was, Bren. - Akiva Moskovitz

I would wager, however, that if they were talking about Christian proselytizing being red-flag-worthy, this post wouldn't exist. - Akiva Moskovitz

Also, does that mean that the actions of Palestinian terrorists justify the displacement, killing, internment in refugee camps, etc. of innocent Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli military? In that case do the actions of one group excuse the actions of another? - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

Or are there, in your mind, *no* innocent Palestinians? - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

I think the original point was that a Christian proselytizing would never be construed as a red flag. - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

I love how the words 'innocent' and 'Palestinian' go together like peanut butter & jelly. It's so rare to hear anyone mention 'Palestinians' without having to preface the sympathy-manipulating 'innocent' first. At any case, Bren, where are you getting all of this? I'm wondering if you have a Firefox plug-in going that generates all kinds of subtext for you when you read what I've been typing. I don't think I've even used the word 'Palestinian' in this post until now. - Akiva Moskovitz

And your very first comment singled out Muslim proselytizing in a way that indicated you meant Muslim proselytizing *generally* - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

My original point was that it's sad that extremists cause people to even consider Islamic proselytization to be worthy of a red flag as opposed to other religions. You guys took that and ran in all sorts of interesting directions. - Akiva Moskovitz

And my first comment singled out the phrase 'Muslim proselytizing' because it's the same phrase that Anthony used. - Akiva Moskovitz

No, Akiva, but I did. I was simply analogizing two situations. Also, I acknowledged quite clearly that there are both innocent and guilty Palestinians. I actually believe we should a have sympathy for innocent people, of any stripe, who are unfairly hurt by the actions of others. But I'm pretty sure I got an answer to my question about whether you believe there are innocent Palestinians. - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

I think your first comment did not read the way you intended it to. - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

You're making assumptions again. I actually am very sympathetic toward the plight of the Gazans. Unlike what you're trying to imply, I don't automatically make a judgment on someone simply because of their geography. I don't think anyone in Gaza is automatically innocent or guilty simply based on the fact that they live in Gaza. - Akiva Moskovitz

Perhaps I am misreading you, Akiva. I shall leave that conversation as it is. Edit: my apologies for not grasping your point, and misrepresenting your intention. - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

Ps, I want that subtext generating firefox extension ;) - Bren, Not Grinchy from iPhone

No need to apologize! I was just being needlessly fussy and confrontational. - Akiva Moskovitz from BuddyFeed