Actually, I think we'd just have banks that were flush with cash (people saving their money for tax time) and still have a crappy time trying to get a loan. - FFing Enigma

Oh that wouldn't work out well! We'd have a nation of IOU's and installment payments. The government takes theirs as you earn it! Uncle Sam don't front you no cash! - Adam Turetzky

@Adam - they take *yours* as you earn it, not mine. ;) @Tina: that assumes people would be disciplined about it. I tend to think most wouldn't, and we'd end up with a situation like Adam's describing. Which is what I was talking about with my "funny feeling". - Anthony Citrano

Actually, I think we'd end up with a lovely old-fashioned tradition called "debtors prison". And the irony of course is that the people who didn't pay their taxes would then be living on the government dole, so in reality the situation wouldn't be all that much different than it is now. - FFing Enigma

Anthony, surely you must make at least quarterly estimated payments. That qualifies for pay as you go. - Tinfoil 2.0

LE, I'm pretty sure Anthony is no longer on US soil. - FFing Enigma

Ah, then why is he worried about US tax procedure? - Tinfoil 2.0

I've been so tempted to claim the most allowances I can and just actually...*gasp* save the money and let it earn ME interest. - Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ

Mike: as I said on a previous post, the penalties you would pay would wind up being greater than the interest you earned in the course of a year. - FFing Enigma

If there were no withholding, people wouldn't save enough to pay their year-end liability and they'd just end up making payments on the previous years' debt. You'd get a "holiday" for one year, then everybody would be in debt to the government, no? - Ken Sheppardson

@LE - my situation is top secret. ;) Suffice it to say I pay, to use a scientific term, a fuckton of US income taxes. But on another note - wow, I sure despise the general concept you put forth - that if something doesn't affect one directly, then one shouldn't give a shit. That has led us into tons of trouble, historically. - Anthony Citrano

But is it a metric fuckton or imperial fuckton? I'm sorry, I truly couldn't resist... =D - FFing Enigma

@Tina I assume you mean a virtual “debtors prison”, since it is not a crime to not pay your US income taxes. @Ken, not sure why it would last only one year. But anyway, don't you think that might help wake people the fuck up? @Tina: imperial, unfortunately. - Anthony Citrano

Anthony: It'd only last a year because in all subsequent years you'd still be paying out every month/quarter... you'd just be making payments on the prior years' taxes. - Ken Sheppardson

@Ken: ahh, I see what you meant. - Anthony Citrano

The worst part about tax withholding is when people get tax refunds and think the government is giving them money. It was actually their money all along! - Morton Fox

Anthony, you really think that if the government made paying taxes a once-per-year versus auto-withholding, they'd leave the rest of the tax code untouched? - FFing Enigma

Morton, if that were truly the case all the time, I wouldn't hear people always bringing up examples of the no-income people getting big checks at tax time. It can't be both ways. - FFing Enigma

Withholding was only instituted during WWII to improve government's cash flow during the war. It was supposed to be temporary. - Dave Roth

@Tina - "the government" is us. If we wanted it changed, it would be changed. And yes, I do not think Congress would - especially on the heels of abolishing withholding - add criminal penalties for nonpayment. Added: BTW, having employed a lot of people, I can tell you that most folks do it to themselves - they do not set their withholding properly and, as Morton says, the gov't ends up with a free loan. - Anthony Citrano

People are so cute when it comes to thinking about their taxes. It brings out the most childlike responses! We really need to figure out how to get some higher visibility of all the good we actually get for our money. Srsly, I mean does anyone doubt this is working better than the old chiefdom system we had going back in the day? - Edward Zwart

You know, we could get this all taken care of and your lives would really all be much better if you'd just put me in charge of everything. - Ken Sheppardson

+1 Ken. @Edward: I commend you for your optimism, but that glass ain't anywhere *near* half-full. - Anthony Citrano

Interesting, Anthony. I'm figuring in a nation where the leading cashcrop has been ostracized and the revenue it could generate has been ignored, criminal penalties for non-payment are a distinct possibility in your scenario. They already are, actually, it's tax evasion. - FFing Enigma

Better yet, make tax day be the first Monday in November. - dpurrington

Edward, actually I'd prefer no government at all and at the very least they stay the hell out of my life. Also, back in the chiefdom days, what people knew was the truth. Information wasn't as widely available as it is now. People were literally thought of as too stupid to make their own decisions. The problem now is we have a mix of too smart for my own good, and too stupid it should be illegal and everything in between. - Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ

@Tina: I don't see Congress having the courage. And tax evasion must meet a higher standard than the mere avoidance of paying an already-assessed tax liability. There needs to be active conduct of avoidance. Evasion is almost always someone who is trying to prevent assessment, not merely blowing off the bill. - Anthony Citrano

@Jason - I agree, and I said in another thread recently that each American should sit down and figure what their share is of everything. So, for every $10k you pay in taxes, figure $2100 to blow people up in Arabia, $800 to pay the interest on our debts, $1400 to bail out bankerZ and hedge fund boyZ, etc. (I know it's not that simple but it might help Americans get a clue about this.) - Anthony Citrano

@Jason - more paperwork, yay! ;) - Anthony Citrano

The abolition of withholding would cause a tax revolt. Thus, it will never be allowed to happen. - Joey Gibson

@Joey - "allowed"? Are we subjects now? As I said above, it would be abolished within months if enough people wanted it. - Anthony Citrano

Anthony, I think you miss the gist of what Joey was trying to say. The people, the voters: they don't want it. They might gripe about their taxes and whine about how much goes gets pulled out every month, but when it comes right down to it, it's easy. Having the money taken out for you is easy and you don't have to think about it or have the self restraint to not spend it during the year. THAT'S why it won't happen: the people won't allow it. - FFing Enigma

@Tina - gotchya; sorry. p.s. why are you always right all the time? ;) - Anthony Citrano

I'm just that good. Either that, or all those voices I hear are really smart ;-) - FFing Enigma

Right now I have to pay my own taxes. Which honestly I like a bit more then having them taken out every week. Because I'm in control of when I pay my taxes. The only downside, I don't have any unemployment benefits, so I have to make sure that I save money for that just in case loss of employment. - Mathew™ aka Youngblood

Thanks Tina, you got most of what I meant. The rest was that *if*, through some miracle, a real movement to abolish withholding started, those who want to keep it would instantly frame it as just another attempt to keep "the rich" from paying their "fair share" or some other class warfare tactic. Then, no matter how large the movement was, you'd still need congressmen with balls to get it done. There are no congressmen with balls any more. - Joey Gibson

@Joey - not none. There's a ball or two in the 111th, but yeah, still close to zero, sadly. :</ - Anthony Citrano

My Dad's idea was simpler: every payday, people would be paid the full amount and then have to count back the tax money; seeing the actual money would wake them up. - Robert Hafer

@Robert - definitely a fun illustration - but highly impractical. (I know mine is, too, but..) - Anthony Citrano

@Chris, quarterly payments are fine, too. Either way, I want people to fully understand how much they are being screwed by our government. When it's essentially hidden by withholding, they don't appreciate the level of screwing. - Joey Gibson

Joey, that really depends on the person. I just deposited my check today, I know what my gross was, my net, and the rough % of what got deducted where. It's not hidden, people just choose to keep their heads in the ground and not look. - FFing Enigma

True, Tina, it does depend on the person. But I would bet the change in my pocket that the vast majority of taxpayers are the type who don't have a clue how much they are paying. - Joey Gibson

http://petter-haggholm.livejournal.com/151913... <ducks> - Edward Zwart

How many people look at the amount of taxes on their utility bills? (Don't get me started on the Al Gore secret phone tax). We need a way wake up the average taxpayer. - Robert Hafer

@Robert - I do. Re: waking them up, I agree with you (despite the Al Gore finger-pointing). - Anthony Citrano

The Al Gore secret phone tax is just one example of Government skulduggery. - Robert Hafer

Was Gore King for a few weeks and I just missed it, Robert? Anyway, not sure how this relates to withholding. Start a thread on it, maybe? - Anthony Citrano

I'm trying to figure out which exactly is the Al Gore phone tax: the FUSF, the e911, what. - FFing Enigma

Well, I still think paying taxes for the upkeep of a democratic republic is still better than serfdom or indentured servitude. - Victor Ganata

The idea is that Americans should look at all the taxes they are paying, and what they are getting for their money. Of course we pay taxes, citizens in dictatorships also pay taxes. The Government is, in theory, subject to the will of the people. If We the People don't have a firm grasp of what's going on, we can be lied to and manipulated. - Robert Hafer

Theoretically, all this information is available. The government has to publish a budget. Your taxes and contributions to entitlements should be on every paycheck. While I realize politicians try very hard to hide expenses that they don't want the electorate to see, if you don't know where your money is going, who should you blame for that? - Victor Ganata

Chris and Tina, you guys crack me up! :D - Edward Zwart

Oh, btw, what WAS the secret Al Gore phone tax all about exactly? - Edward Zwart

The Al Gore secret phone tax is an addition to your phone bill to support some Government programs. The anger-inducing part is the provision in the law that makes it illegal for phone companies to itemize it on the bill. - Robert Hafer

Ah, you're talking about the surcharge which goes to offset phone service to government entities such as libraries and the fed. Which may or many not be bundled into your FUSF/EUCL depending on which company you're with. I'm not really sure why that's frustrating to you: the taxpayer will pay for that one way or the other, either on the phone bill or via the federal income tax. It makes sense to make you pay it on the phone bill since people who don't have phone service are less likely to call those organizations. Kinda like the taxes for road construction being rolled into the price of gasoline. - FFing Enigma

Yes, I used to work for a phone company. - FFing Enigma

The relative merit of the tax is not the point. It's the fact that it is deliberately hidden from taxpayer. It is a calculated effort to redirect anger from "the Greedy Government" to "the Greedy Corporation". That kind of fraud angers me. - Robert Hafer

So I take it you're equally frustrated that when you buy gas you don't have a line itemization of the cost per gallon vs. the tax per gallon? - FFing Enigma

The pumps do tell you how much tax you're paying per gallon, at least in California. I do think it's shady that the phone companies don't itemize it. What's up with that? - Victor Ganata

The pumps tell you something like "43 cents per gallon" just like anyone can research and find out how much the "Secret Al Gore Phone Tax" is. But your receipt from the gas station doesn't say $30.00 fuel, $10.00 gas tax, total $40.00 any more than your phone bill itemizes this particular "Secret Al Gore Phone Tax". - FFing Enigma

@Tina, yes I am.and tobacco taxes too - Robert Hafer

May I ask, whose secret tax is the gas tax? Because if you're equally as mad then I would've expected reference to "Person X's Secret Gas Tax". Otherwise, it seems as though you're throwing out the name Al Gore just to gain attention rather than as a rational argument. - FFing Enigma

How about this: We're going to invade Iraq, but before we do, we need every US Citizen to pay for the cost up front. Every man, woman and child needs to put up $3,333 each before we can drop any bombs. As the father of a family of four, I need to write a check for $13,332. How would that have gone over? - stretta

I'm going to guess it would no longer be considered unpatriotic to question the war... - FFing Enigma

Ah yes Tina, that reminds me... *starts another thread* - Anthony Citrano

Not equally mad, also mad. People should be mad at every tax and every bill they pay. They should look at it and say "Why am I paying this much? Am I getting value for my dollar?" otherwise, the people in charge get away with whatever they want. The country runs on dollars, control the dollar and rule the country. - Robert Hafer

A government is only as strong as the strength of their tax enforcement, really. - Victor Ganata

@Robert I look at my bills, and my taxes, to varying degrees, and I conclude that, on the whole, I do get value. That would be my main point on this whole thread. I'm sure there are inefficiencies, but we still gotta pay for what we get! We are, collectively, working that out. That's the whole point (for me) why govt is NOT broken. (Caution: objects in mirror may appear as overly optimistic.) - Edward Zwart

@Anthony Do you think it's better to start a new thread than change the conversation in an existing one? ..cuz it seems that way... just curious. :) - Edward Zwart

Face it. There is no viable alternative to government. Utopian anarchy is unachievable. While a lot of people will argue there isn't a difference, I'd rather voluntarily (and I use that word quite loosely) pay taxes than be forced to cede my labor and property to people in power completely without my consent, at their unaccountable whim, on the threat of violence against my person, which historically seems to be the other way governments have obtained funding. - Victor Ganata

Unless we can set it up a la Star Trek. I'd be willing to cede a fair bit if it involved a holodeck, replicator, and all the medical visits I needed ;-) - FFing Enigma

Don't forget a brain soothe with the counselor! - Edward Zwart

Maybe it's time we re-think this whole "representative democracy" business, now that we have real-time entries and commenting in FriendFeed. - Ken Sheppardson

Funny thing, I was just thinking of Brave New World the other day, and maybe a totalitarian government wouldn't be so bad if everyone really did have guaranteed access to unlimited recreational drugs. - Victor Ganata

@Victor, bring on the Soma, baby! :-) - Joey Gibson

Somehow, this always brings out an "all or nothing" arguement. Less taxes is not the same as no taxes. I just don't think we should trust politicians to have our best interest at heart. We need to question things like, what does my State to pave a mile of road? Could it be done with less, and if so, why are my gas taxes so high? - Robert Hafer

I agree with the premise, Robert. But the cost to pave that mile of road depends on the amount being charged by a private entity that was awarded the contract. That private entity, in a capitalistic society, is obligated to make as much profit as they can which either means charging more money (and hence higher taxes on the people it employs) OR cutting their costs (and firing some of the people it employs). When it comes to government, it's not just about paying less for each mile of road paved: expendetures such as that are funneled in many ways back into the economy. What good does it do to cut the price per mile in half if you half to lay off 70% of the construction workers in an area to do so? - FFing Enigma

I just finished working for the federal govt for a year. I HATED how inefficient and mindless and stupid and full of shit the whole process was. So, I'm with you on the project of making govt (at least SEEM) to operate in a more realistic and competitive manner. But, that doesn't lead me to wanting to tear it down, and more to the point, mistrust it. It's a difficult problem, cuz really, for REAL competition at the bureaucratic level, you need MORE bureaucracy, not less! - Edward Zwart

That's what anti-tax arguments sound like, though—a call for the complete abolition of taxes. I agree, in a republic, there needs to be oversight, but I disagree that every tax needs to arouse outrage in every citizen. - Victor Ganata

But that saved tax money could employ twice as many in the private sector. Government spending can't create wealth because every penny spent comes out of the private economy, which you then put back in, minus waste. Government needs to spend as little as possible to perform its function, so the rest can be left in the private sector, where it can possibly create more wealth. Wealth creation isn't a smooth process, which is why you have downturns. - Robert Hafer

Where's the data that saved tax money employing twice as many in the private sector? And again, my example above was including the private sector (in this discussion, a construction and paving company that received the gov't contract to do the roads). Assuming the taxes are lowered across the board, the company proper can employ more people but the employees who are paying less taxes aren't employing anybody. At best they're spending their money with a company who's skimming a profit off the top and then perhaps hiring some new employees. There's waste in either scenario, either the government skimming it to cover their costs or the private companies skimming it to boost their profits. As I'm not a member of either of those groups, I don't benefit more one way or the other, except when teh government skims I perhaps get more paved roads and possibly better healthcare. When it's the private company, the only one that sees those profits are the shareholders. - FFing Enigma

How are you saving money when now you don't have a paved road? Government does things that the private sector would never do, because it wouldn't yield them a profit. And yet the private sector can profit off of the infrastructure that the government builds. - Victor Ganata

Tina just reminded me of Dave Winer's comment earlier this year that we should just print our way out of the current crisis. http://www.scripting.com/stories... I tend to agree. Money's a made up concept anyway, kinda like daily affirmations.... Value is what matters. - Edward Zwart

Twice was an arbitrary number. But if those companies make more profits, they pay more taxes. That's why tax cuts have always lead to a net increase in Government revenue. A business will only hire more workers of they make increased profits or have a reasonable expectation of doing so. And if those workers spend some of their new salary in a business that employs you or you own, you see a direct benefit. - Robert Hafer

money is a made up concept, wealth is not. You can't create wealth by printing money. That printed money has to be covered by taxes or debt. Both of witch remove that wealth from the economy. - Robert Hafer

Wealth is not a made up concept, neither is money. Money is any common material used for the exchange of goods, it can just as easily be gold. Wealth is possessions worth someone else's possessions. Money can be a possession. Fiat money (money made by govt decree) is an agreement between all parties to accept a certain specified material for the exchange of goods. It's a self-perpetuating currency so long as someone wants it. Only it's "worth" is the sorta made-up concept, ie, controllable by govt if needed - xero

Wealth is not agreed upon by society, but it can only exist in the event of multiple parties with one desiring to acquire something they do no possess but the other does. Wealth only needs possessions (material or non) and a desire to have something else. So long as the idea of a barter exists, then money exists, whether its chickens, water, services, etc. when there is something to barter with and need to do so, then there is money. - xero

By "money", I will assume you mean printed paper fiat currency, since you're obviously not using the definitions that I have been writing about. With that in mind, if all you have is "money" and nobody wants it then you do not have wealth. But if someone does want your "money" then you do have wealth. Replace "money" with alternatives and think about it: chickens, water, farming skills, carpentry skills, knowledge, etc. - xero

If the store is in a developing region (including rural America) then they'll probably take your chickens and gold in exchange for liquor. - xero

Jason, don't pay your taxes and make the IRS come get your big rock - Robert Hafer

I wonder what the exchange rate is for giant rock to US Dollar? - xero