Isn't it great? My daughter has only been walking about a month. She went from scooting on her butt to crawling, walking and climbing up on the coffee table in about six weeks. We had to do some emergency baby proofing. - Brian Norwood
Looks like you'll be needing to update that AT&T family plan and get him an iPhone soon. - Jeff P. Henderson
The most valuable skillset today is knowing how to go it on your own. There is no such thing as a secure job, there are only secure people. - Craig Eddy
Agreed. In that I include the "protestors" who dropped sandbags from an overpass onto moving vehicles and the morons who had stockpiled buckets of urine and weapons to disable vehicles. Of course their real goal is to get arrested so that they can scream brutality. - Soulhuntre via twhirl
Yeah nobody should ever protest. - PC Easy via twhirl
People have the right to protest, but there's also the common decency of letting someone be heard...... That said, it was kind of funny.... - Chris Reed
@Chris I think common decency is not high on their priority list - John Denver
"People have the right to protest" -- not inside a private gathering, they don't - Craig Eddy
this was a great example of Prince Barak's supporters. - Tony Kanzia
I like to think that the choice of choosing a president is a public matter. - Chris Reed
Indeed it is, Chris. But the confines of the convention building are not particularly public. - Craig Eddy
People have a right to protest, but not the way they did. - Molly
it is a lack of respect and says so much about those people. same with the anarchists starting violence. - John Head via twhirl
Karim, there is no way you can justify interrupting a private event - Craig Eddy
On the deplorability scale I think it's not quite as bad as credentialed press having their faces slammed to the curb. - Karim
I hate to say it a lot of the Democrats who are protesting aren't being very respectful, but I know some may say why should they show respect if McCain doesn't show respect to America. *rolls eyes* - Molly
So John McCain dropping napalm on the Vietnamese is justified, but someone NON-VIOLENTLY interrupting a speech can *never* be justified. Hmmm. - Karim
John, and the exaggeration was? Did I get it wrong and it was high explosive instead of napalm? - Karim
@Karim what ever happened to being respectful? And not all the protests have been non violent at the RNC. Protests should be peaceful and without violence. - Molly
@Karim How exactly can you compare the acts of a few extremists with the job that a soldier performs during a time of war? - John Denver
John, just so I understand you, the "extremists" are the ones who protest non-violently, and the moderates are the ones who drop bombs on people. Did I get that right? - Karim
I am so blogging that, Jeff. thanks. :-) - Chris Baskind
Tried to buy this on eBay and there are a ton of sellers with photocopied versions - but few originals. So far as I can see it's out of print. With good reason. - Wayne Schulz
Wayne.. so you saying there is nothing available but shit copies? And with that people, I bid you goodbye for a few hours :) - John Worthington
todd: i seriously doubt that. I've seen screens that won't be available until 2010. They won't become obsolete in five years. - Robert Scoble
Won't we have some type of ocular implant by then? Or at least a contact lens/glasses for watching stuff - Rahsheen(isSoAwesome)
Rasheen/ Todd, I'd like to think that, but it isn't happening, at least in the next decade anyway. Thinner and bigger is the general direction, although Scoble I think 5 screens is still some time away, by the sheer force of building design. Newer houses might allow it, but I haven't got a wall in my loungeroom for the extra units :-) - Duncan Riley
Duncan: you're probably right in many homes. The new screens are so freaking thin they are great as picture frames. - Robert Scoble
You gave me 7 years to play with. Shortening it to 5 seconds isn't fair :-) I'm voting for the glasses that project images directly on your iris. Cut out the middleman and start painting directly in light. - todd
@todd... I´d prefer glasses/lenses that project images directly on my retina... - peter huesken
Glasses will have their place, but we will always enjoy shared media experiences. That means something that hangs on the wall. - Robert Scoble
Right now the FCC is considering whether or not to require all Cable Set Top Boxes to have Ethernet interfaces instead of FireWire. Think about it. - Andrew Feinberg
@peter... Whoops, you're right. Thanks. It's the retina. - todd
Alex - where the heck have you been? Getting ready for the wedding? - Zee at WeDoCreative
@Duncan check out IFA Berlin, they had some incredible new television tech from Samsung and Sony. - Steve Spalding
Steve: the Panasonic that Duncan wrote up was introduced at a Panasonic press conference in IFA. So that news was directly from IFA. Also, Philips had the thinnest screen I saw. 8mm thick. Unbelieveable. I have pictures of some of the thin screens here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/s... - Robert Scoble
Don't mean to be all 'Mr Conspiracy' or 'Mr Fearmonger' but what implications will this have for security and privacy. My major concearn is what access is available to the TVs from 'untrusted' sources. Can content or ads be placed in my TV with my knowledge? Can my viewing habits be mined from third parties. I hope this is addressed and solved cause I'm all about digital connectivity through my house :) - John Worthington
John: in the case of the Panasonic TV? Probably not. The system is very limited. You can't view a lot of Internet content. Just YouTube and a few select others. I seriously doubt that Panasonic would put a system in that sends much data home. Either way, I bet NBC's Olympics Website has a lot more info being sent home than this TV will. - Robert Scoble
@Scoble... A shared media experience doesn´t always need a single shared screen. It could also be somethjing along the lines of a "Silent Disco" type experience for screens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...) - peter huesken
@Robert, indeed. My issue is not so much with the big Brands but the slew of cheap knock-offs that are sure to follow. .. Which people like my mum and dad are likely to buy :) - John Worthington
I am really behind here, with my little 25 inch regular CRT TV, but then I seldom watch any TV. - Ian May
How do you feel about privacy of your TV activity vs PC/browser activity? Do you consider your viewing habits on Hulu, for example, less sensitive than your viewing habits on your Comcast box (read Hulu privacy policy to notice relatively broad rights for personal and anonymous info). What if the TV policies and user options to control usage were similar to those provided by Facebook? - Amir Gharaat
Well for me, I do not have an issue. But for my parents, and a large number of people I know who exist outside the tech-bubble we like to float around in, they get nervous anytime anything touches the internet. - John Worthington
I've been purposefully avoiding FriendFeed because of it, myself. - Akiva Moskovitz
Aaron, you're making mountains out of molehills. Nobody has called you crazy, unintelligent, or lacking brain power in the evolution discussion. Instead of responding to counter-arguments, you played the victim card. I, and others, read, and responded, to each statement you've made, yet you never afforded the same respect. It's perfectly fine to opt-out of a discussion, but you didn't even try to have a discussion with anyone disagreeing with you. - Mark Trapp
Not you at all Mark. You have debated intelligently and without personal attacks. Others have not. My views are my views for personal reasons and those personal reasons should never be denigrated by anyone who thinks they have a perfect corner on science. You're okay, dude. I appreicate it though. - Aaron Brazell
Being called a religious fanatic, insinuating that my views are based in "Sunday School" and being told to, in essence, shut up because I hold to a theory different that someone else is silly, petty and disrespectful. - Aaron Brazell
I think your next topic should be Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar vs. anything Foreign. That will bring out the true debates of our generation. - Jay Cuthrell
Meh. I'll pass. Everyone knows Honda is the best anyway. No reason for a debate. - Aaron Brazell
Aaron, I just read all 87 comments again. Not a single person called you a religious fanatic, insinuated that your views are based on Sunday school, told you to shut up, personally attacked you, said you were unintelligent, or said you lacked the brain power to talk about science. In fact, every single claim was either about creationism or evolution: nobody was attacked. It's a heated topic, but realize that nobody is attacking you. - Mark Trapp
Mark, if only the conversation were isolated to that one thread. It all started on Twitter and has happened in a multitude of places since. I have no interest in re-hashing it all though. - Aaron Brazell
I simply told you you were misusing terms, as you were, and continue to do. "Theory" in a scientific sense has a real and specific meaning and it's not synonymous with "idea". - Jason Carreira
Keep your head up bro. Some people are just not open to Great thought. Some people's brains can only deal with one side instead of all sides yah know. It's sad really. Don't let it bother you. - Zod the Shodai Taiyoukage
Jason, I'm looking for a reason to snap out of my funky mood and you're not providing one. Thus my request for you to go away. I can block you if you'd like. Or you can go back to the other thread and keep amazing people with your scientific prowess. Your choice. - Aaron Brazell
Aaron, why you gotta bring up that shit? Now you've just gone and hurt my very last feeling! - Akiva Moskovitz
Wow. I guess I'm probably in the doghouse too here but it's not good to let things get so personal... It's just the internet. I try not to be uncivil but I guess that mission failed this time... - Lindsay Donaghe
Lindsay, you haven't gotten personal. Much. - Aaron Brazell
I just find it sad that the non-religious who get so offended when religion is proselytized to them have absolutely no problem with prosleytizing atheism to the religious. Honestly, I have no clue what the original thread was all about so this is mainly the vodka and challah talking so, yeah. I should probably go back to ignoring FriendFeed. - Akiva Moskovitz
And someone please shoot me if I *EVER* proselytize. I'm a Christian. You don't have to be. Let's get a beer. - Aaron Brazell
I disagree that Creationism should be taught in public schools, but I think it would be unintelligent to call you unintelligent. ;-) - Chris Baskind
@Akiva, great comment. Atheists proselytize too. - Larry Huffman
Shey, I went through them again, and I did notice the comment about the critical thinking ability of one who does not accept evolution, and 2 or 3 comments overly blunt in wondering why people would consider Creationism, out of now 91 comments. Considering the ability of Aaron to moderate his own thread, it seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water in what was a pretty civil discussion of why evolution is different than creationism. To those of us who were trying to have a civil discussion, instead of getting responses to our counterpoints (as we provided to yours), we're instead grouped with people who want nothing more than to personally attack people who believe in Creationism. I think mutual respect and giving people the benefit of the doubt could've went a long way. - Mark Trapp
@Akiva - it's the forum where the proselythizement takes place that's the problem... and whether your children should be forced to be exposed to religions that you don't also believe in and whether that exposure takes time away from things that are more imperative for to be exposed to instead. I have no problem with people believing what they believe but I don't like non-concentual proselytization. - Lindsay Donaghe
@Aaron if I was offensive or hurtful to you I apologize. My perspective comes from growing up an atheist child of 2 research scientists in the Southern Baptist south, having evangelicals come to my house several times throughout my school years to try to "save" me, and trying to fight the near constant push in the south to remove Evolution from science class and teach Creationism. It's a somewhat touchy subject with me. - Jason Carreira
Well, now that thread's gone to hell. But it wasn't 46 minutes ago when *this* thread was created! - Mark Trapp
Mark, Godwin's law is ready to be invoked over there. I'm not even going back. - Aaron Brazell
Lindsay, I don't particularly believe in secularism, nor do I want my children to be taught that it's the only acceptable worldview. Does this mean I have to send them to private schools? - Larry Huffman
Lindsay, understood. I'm definitely raising my children with an open mind. But until they're at a rational age, they're damn well sitting still for Shabbat. Jason, evangelical Christians do not define religion as a whole and to judge every religion by their aggression is probably not the most open-minded approach. - Akiva Moskovitz
I'm a Southern Baptist with a Romain Catholic background that nearly converted a friend of mine to Catholicism but he chose to become an Anglican Priest instead. I became a Southern Baptist for good Catholic reasons. But the reason I had any interest or input at all is my undergraduate degree is a Philosophy of Religion Major. Oh yeah, I teach IT. - James Herbert
Akiva, I'd also say that not all evangelicals are like those Jason has encountered. - Larry Huffman
I am the God of Epic FriendFeed Threads. Call me Zeus. Or Apollo. Or Thor. Whatever works in your worldview/religion/scientific understanding/or lack therof. - Aaron Brazell
If your opinion is vindicated by the number of people you can get to agree with you, then it's not your opinion. - Akiva Moskovitz
@Akiva, they were the sum total of my religious experience for the first nearly 20 years of my life. There's levels of pushiness in different churches where I grew up, but not a lot of variety in religious belief. - Jason Carreira
Jason, I commiserate. I was raised in the south and spent much of my youth on the defense from evangelicals. Hell, even if you were Christian, you were never Christian ENOUGH unless you were THEIR brand of Christian. Nonetheless, that kind of thing doesn't define religion, or religious people, as a whole. - Akiva Moskovitz
@Akriva. I love the "If your opinion is vindicated..." statement. Can I use that? Can I quote you? - James Herbert
The little bit of name calling that invaded your thread was unfortunate, but I think that was the most civil discussion of evolution vs. creationism that I have seen in a long time. I appreciate it Aaron. - Bryan Clark
I shouldn't be adding any more fuel to this fire but... @Larry - what you learn at school is not "secular" or not... it should be about skills and basic knowledge you need to be a functioning adult. Math, Science, Language(s), Social Studies - all these inherently have nothing to do with Religion and should be known by both "religious" and "secular" children. It's the government's directive to provide that knowledge. If you want your child to be exposed to religion in school, yes, go private. - Lindsay Donaghe
The same who created anything else. For my part, I believe that God created them but even if it was another being, etc... I don't deny the existence of dinosaurs if thats what you are asking. - Aaron Brazell
I think there are many variations of 'creationism' -- for example, not all believe the world is 6000 years old. - Shey
Man... I grew up in the post-Bakker era. I'll never forget bringing up dinosaurs in my Southern Baptist Sunday school class as a wee 6 years old. I'm of course prepared for my eternal damnation but I just found the dinosaur books to be much more enjoyable reading. It's the first muxing of cartoons and /science/ I can recall. And by science I mean that which explains and predicts. Hence, the /science/ vs. science. Dinosaur theory has been altered greatly over the past 30 years. - Jay Cuthrell
I'm going to have to agree with you here. Except I will point out that evolution is religion neutral where creationism is religion specific. Since we have a separation of church and state, evolution has more of a right to be in schools than creationism does. - Lindsey Smith
Separation of church and state simply means there is not a state sponsored or endorsed religion, not that religious topics of all variety can't be discussed as they pertain to existing course matter in schools. Personally, I think a look at the creation mythology of religions around the world is extremely fascinating. - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)
Agreed . . . but it does seem like only Christian values and ideals are shared within school walls - Lindsey Smith
i gotta be honest on this one - personal beliefs aside, I could care less what they teach in schools. the day i leave it to any other person or institution to reinforce the ideas or values I think are most important is the day I cede that ability. my faith is important to me but i am not exactly sure what forcing my kid or anyone else's to go through the motions of it will accomplish - guess I should add that i dont necessarily see the harm in teaching creationism purely as a theory many hold to along side - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
This is a much tamer thread than the one I mistakenly jumped in on. Good approach . Let each other have their theory. - Josh Haley via fftogo
@Lindsay But in the way evolution is taught, it's it inherently anti-religious seeing as most religions believe in a Creator? - Shey
Several notes: (1) Evolution is a fact. Microbiologists witness it happening on a viral level every day. (2) Evolution-the-fact suggests a theory pertaining to the origin of species. This is often referred to as "evolution", but the fact and theory are not one and the same. (3) Creationism is not a theory; it is a philosophy. It cannot be tested via the scientific method. (4) Even if Creationism did contain a theory, all theories are not created equal, and cannot be taught as if they are. - Roger Benningfield
Evolution may be a "fact," but I also believe we have more "facts" missing from that "fact." - l0ckergn0me
Keep it to private schools or college courses. We're bad enough at science as it is to waste time on teaching anything else. I thought it was bad enough to say '..under God' everyday as a kid. This is going backwards. - Rodfather
I think way too many people get hung up on the word theory. Evolution both explains the mechanics of biological diversity and, this is the real power of it, makes predictive claims as to what will happen in the future. To this second point, it's as accurate as all the other scientific principles we call laws. The reason it's called a theory is that it's not 100% fleshed out yet: some of the details need to be worked out or experimentally observed. The problem with elevating creationism to the level of evolution is that it fails the rigor test: it does not make verifiable predictable claims, nor does it provide any way to empirically observe any of the claims it makes. Because of this, creationism ought not to be taught in schools, not because of establishment clause, but because any relation it has to the content of evolutionary and biological sciences is purely superficial: they're not even in the same realm of inquiry. - Mark Trapp
Some of the details such as, oh say, everything left itself progresses toward a state of disorder? (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) - Kind of insists that if an organization is taking place, i.e. evolution, it must be because of some external properties/forces. Right? Or does that scientific principle not apply when it contradicts evolutionary theory? ;-) - Aaron Brazell
One is a theory, while the other is a fairytale. - Chantal
I disagree and the reason is very simple: Creationism is far too open - you'd have to cover every single religion's take on it. In a classroom setting there simply isn't enough time so it's best to go with the one that, thus far, has the most supporting (and testable) evidence. However, I'm supportive of research projects for exploring creationism. In terms of priority, I'd say its fact (e.g. math), theory (e.g. some evidence) then research. And in university there's much more room for research. - trextor
I thought all this was taught in Sunday school? Or do kids don't go to service and have class afterwards anymore? - Rodfather
Mark put this more eloquently, but - Creationism is not science because it fails validation by the Scientific Method. A "theory" is not science unless it can be validated by the Scientific Method. Therefore Creationism should not be taught in Science class. Scientific theories are acceptable to be taught in Science class. If it's not science it belongs somewhere else. In the case of Creationism, it would be more appropriate to discuss in Religion or Literature class (under comparative mythology) maybe. - Lindsay Donaghe
must say i am impressed with the civility and intellectualism of this debate - from my perspective +1 l0ckergn0me - I'll admit my faith is just that as long as everyone else admits that the same science claiming evolution as fact is the same one that said eggs were good, no - bad, no - good for you. +1 for trapp semantics are a bitch - evolution is far too broad a word to clarify the debate +1 aaron 2nd law, 1st law, biogenisis - at the end of the day there are alot of unknowns - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
Aaron, you're adding a value judgement to evolution which does not exist, and equivocating that value judgement to what the second law of thermodynamics states. Evolution doesn't predict going from disorder to order: merely that species adapt to the conditions they find themselves in. This is an experimentally verifiable claim: and this is as far as science goes. Whether or not the end results of evolution are inherently more ordered or better than what existed in the past is not a scientific claim. - Mark Trapp
Aaron, In terms of the second law of thermodynamics, it states that in an *isolated* system (evolution is not an isolated system), the entropy (not order) will *tend* to increase over time. Entropy is the inability of an isolated system to do work. What does this mean in plain terms? The second law of thermodynamics states that isolated systems become more inefficient over time. Not that they go from order to disorder. So even if evolution *was* an isolated system subject to the second law, it would not preclude evolutionary processes over any period of time. - Mark Trapp
I'm fire with adding creationism, as long as they touch on about five or six different theories from other religions, as well. I'm not fine with it if Christians want only their beliefs added. - MiniMage
@Mark thank you... that's a much more civil description than I was going to go into, mostly because I'm too lazy to type all that. Let me just say that people who don't understand science shouldn't use the word "theory" to try to prove or equate anything. - Jason Carreira
Thank you, Jason. The "theory" of Creationism is not a SCIENTIFIC theory. - Lindsay Donaghe
are you serious? Creationism is not a "theory", it is simply a way to get the Bible into the classroom. - Dave Hodson
Why not teach creationism in Sunday school? I don't want my children being taught a religious belief in Science class. - PC Easy via twhirl
Like Marco, I personally don't necessarily care if creationism is taught in the classroom or not. My problem is that if someone doesn't buy into the theory of evolution, they are automatically labeled luddites, crazy, idiotic, etc. y'all know what I mean. When in fact, there are some very intelligent, reasonable, rational people who don't fully accept evolution..... - Shey
Yet everyone holds it up as a standard because there is no other "alternative" when there are so many unanswered questions that most evolution-believers either dismiss or guess away at. - Shey
I'll admit, it's not all false, there has to be some truth to it, but the evidence against it should not be so easily discarded and scoffed at. - Shey
When scientific research produces conclusions which contradict a creationist interpretation of scripture, the strict creationist approach is either to reject the conclusions of the research, its underlying scientific theories, and/or its methodology. For this reason, both creation science and intelligent design have been labeled as pseudoscience by the mainstream scientific community. [http://bit.ly/sdrKC] - MikeAmundsen
Shey: what types of questions do you think are not sufficiently answered by evolutionary processes? - Mark Trapp
@Mark We can have a discussion on that at later time -- Aaron wished not to get into an evolution / creationism debate, and that's the only reason I'm even commenting. My real point is the ostracizing and ridiculing that takes place when one doesn't choose the evolution side of this issue. I think I'm an intelligent person, I've proven that to the people around me, so if people think I'm a fool for not buying into evolution, then so be it. - Shey
Judge rules against ‘intelligent design’ - A six-week trial over the issue yielded “overwhelming evidence” establishing that intelligent design “is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory,” said Jones, a Republican and a churchgoer appointed to the federal bench three years ago. [http://bit.ly/vGnjI] - MikeAmundsen
With the preponderance of evidence supporting evolution, and the lack of any credible counter-evidence, yes, I tend to think negatively about the critical thinking capacities of those who reject it. - Jason Carreira
RE: 2nd Law... The sun (a low-entropy entity) radiates energy to this planet. Most of that energy is radiated back into space, and the total entropy of the universe increases. Meanwhile, the leftovers are gobbled up by our biosphere and turned into fuel in a process that increases entropy at every step of biomechanical conversion. - Roger Benningfield
Right. I don't particularly care to discuss Creation/Evolution BECAUSE I'm labelled an idiot and not worthy of having an opinion. Also, at what point did I bring religion into this or insinuate I wanted religion taught in schools? (Crickets) - Aaron Brazell
Additionally, I can sign on to the idea of micro-evolution. I fully believe that species adapt. I have a problem with a big-bang style theories of creation though. I can't grok, nor will I simply through brainiacs waving flags of science and proclaiming unproven fact, that everything we see in this world simply "happened" through some coincidental happenstance. I can sign on to a hybrid theory of creation + evolution though. My faith can support that. But so can my intellect. - Aaron Brazell
Shey: fair enough. Aaron: would you mind explaining the version of creationism that doesn't include a divine instigator? - Mark Trapp
I believe in a divine instigator. That's me. - Aaron Brazell
Furthermore, I don't think I'm crazy. I'd appreciate that that inane bridge is not crossed. - Aaron Brazell
Aaron, so you're implying that you created yourself and every other biological process in the world? - Mark Trapp
Dude... I'm not God. WTF (Oh I get it... bud dum dum) - Aaron Brazell
belief in a divine instigator is your right. however your belief is not a theory and should not be taught as such. - MikeAmundsen
Sure it's a theory. It may not be a theory you like or want taught, but it's certainly a theory. - Aaron Brazell
No, one theory has a basis in science, the other is a fairy tale that most sane Christians (ie outside of the United States) don't believe either. - Duncan Riley
Shey & Aaron: Calling someone an idiot for not "getting" evolutionary theory would be like calling someone an idiot for not "getting" relativity... 99% of the planet would promptly fall into the "idiot" bucket. And you're right, that's not fair. - Roger Benningfield
Aaron, again, evolution and science as a whole does not involve value judgements regarding the processes they explain. Science, and by extension, evolution and cosmology, makes explanatory and predictive claims that are experimentally verified. That's it. To make sense of the world requires something else, whether or not it's religion or a belief that the world is randomly generated or that the Fonz created everything. I'm all for teaching philosophy in public schools, but it can't be disguised as an alternative to scientific inquiry. It's two different and distinct modes of inquiry that require each other to complete a worldview: they are not in competition. - Mark Trapp
This is always a heated topic. It truly boils down to definitions. The philosophical terms used to clarify the point are primary and secondary efficient causality. Explained in the analogy of the sculptor. Primary efficient causality defines the "who" behind the sculpture and can have discussions about the "person". Secondary efficient causality can only discuss the tools and how they were used. Science is the study of "processes". Biology (Greek Bio-logos) literally means "(logos) words about (bios) life" - James Herbert
Duncan: most Christians in the United States believe evolution is scientifically sound, too. The minority is especially vocal about it, though. The Christian worldview is wholly compatible with the science of evolution. - Mark Trapp
my mistake. belief in a divine instigator _is_ a theory. however, by any definition i find, it is not a *scientific* theory. - MikeAmundsen
@Aaron, again, if you don't understand science, don't use the term "theory" because you're just wrong. Creationism or anything involving God taking some action is not a theory because it is not falsifiable. The end. - Jason Carreira
Jason, I do understand science and you're not the end. Bye. - Aaron Brazell
@Mark Re: most Christians. Can you show me some numbers on that? - Shey
It's pretty dang simple. If you can't validate it through the Scientific Method, it's not Science! If it's not Science, it shouldn't be taught in Science class. Why is that even a debate? - Lindsay Donaghe
With that translation biology becomes the "studies about life" or "studies of the processes about life" Science is concerned about processes: The How or How to of things. Creationism/Intelligent Design begin with a universe creatio ex nihilo. There are no processes to study thus no Science in either the manner of Sir Thomas Bacon or more modern definition. - James Herbert
@lindsay, because people who argue for creationism like to intentionally conflate the vernacular use of the word theory with the strictly defined scientific concept of Theory. They think any idea they can come up with is a "theory" and is on equal footing with Evolution, Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics. It's galling, really. - Jason Carreira
On the other hand there are a number of real zingers thrown out there. My personal favorite (not a value statement but just because I find it humorous) is: "Evolution is just a theory. So is Gravity." - James Herbert
My final comment: Not fully accepting evolution is not a complete dismissal of ALL science. Get that. - Shey
Yes, Evolution is a SCIENTIFIC theory and so is the theory of Gravity. They're not facts... if someone comes up with a better theory that can be validated by the Scientific Method then those will be replaced. Creationism is not a SCIENTIFIC theory and therefore has no comparison to either Evolution or Gravity. - Lindsay Donaghe
@Shey, Evolution is one of the most rigorously tested and verified of all scientific theories. Denying it is, in effect, denying the scientific process. - Jason Carreira
Shey & Aaron: There's a flipside to that unfairness, though. My wife builds large networks for a living, and I (like most geeks) only understand about 1/100th of what she does. The average person, meanwhile, probably doesn't even grasp 1/1000th of it. And yet they depend on their networks to Get Stuff Done, creating a situation where dependency is married to helplessness. The result is a lot of defensiveness, misdirected anger, and magical thinking. Evolution is just networking x1,000,000. - Roger Benningfield
Teach all the creationism you want -- in a humanities class, along with the Hindu creation myth, the Hopi creation myth, the Egyptian creation myth, the Babylonian creation myth (here you'll find the foundations for the Judeo-Christian myth), and the creation myths of every other culture on earth. But in science classes, teach science. Evolution is science, creationism is myth. - William Harryman
On Usenet (or the Google version of it at least...) there are 15427 threads over at alt.talk.creationism. Can FriendFeed keep up? :) - Jay Cuthrell
What I find most disappointing is the tendency to throw darts and daggers instead of a well thought out interesting argument. I mean argument in a manner after Aristotle's Logic rather than the knock down drag out this becomes. It is a truly fascinating topic for discussion. Unfortunately it divides most and in the divide the silence of wisdom is defining. - James Herbert
@Shey - Science has nothing to do with Religion... They shouldn't mix. You could be the most religious person in the world and still accept Science. Whether you accept Evolution or not is not the point... it's whether it's a Scientific theory or not. Why teach something that's not a scientific theory in Science class? Would you want Science taught in Religion class? Why not? Because they're two different things.... - Lindsay Donaghe
Shey, evolution as guided by the Father is accepted by Roman Catholics, Lutherans, the LDS, Greek Orthodox, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Anglicans/Episcopalians; this constitutes 66.1% of the Christian population of the US, according to the American Religious Identification Survey conducted by City University of New York: http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty... - Mark Trapp
Never thought I'd "Hide" my own conversation, but to be honest... it's become hurtful and depressing. So... "Hide" - Aaron Brazell
We are the myth; god is our science. - David Kemper
Too bad I can't hide my own conversation. Meh. - Aaron Brazell
Personally, I think if you reject one facet of science you should reject the whole thing... how can you accept the benefits of Science (brought to us by adhering to the Scientific Method) if you reject what it predicts as a reasonable and verifiable assessment of how the world works? We couldn't have made the advances in medicine and technologies we have if we hadn't used the Scientific Method the way we have. - Lindsay Donaghe
i would not agree with creationism being taught in a scientific context. it's not scientific. there's nothing wrong with creationism, people who believe it are not stupid for so doing, but it's not science. this was a pretty hot topic when i was in school, as well. my opinion as a child was: i'd be happy to learn all about creationism (not specifically Christian creationism, personally, but i wouldn't exclude it from a group of such things in a proper context), but ... - idnan
the attempt to force creationism to masquerade as science makes it a less viable perspective for me. part of why i learned atheism at such a young age was theism's attempt to impose on science, which seemed indicative of theism's inability to stand on its own confidently. that view is somewhat revised in adulthood ... - idnan
@Roger Benningfield Well said! Well Done! You've got it. That is exactly why discussions about this topic break down. It would have taken me the rest of the night to say that. Too much Philosophy major in me I guess. Again, Well Said! - James Herbert
That being said, because Evolution is a theory and not a fact that means that there is room for it being adjusted or replaced when new data comes to light. It's the fact that a SCIENTIFIC theory CAN change in the face of new evidence that makes it so powerful. - Lindsay Donaghe
One day, through science, we will achieve god-like power, shall we say, and then we will create our own worlds, new life forms, and more, and then we will no longer have use for myth because we have become our own creators. No one, not even historians, will ever again misinterpret our achievements, as has been done in the past through "church" and "institutions." - David Kemper
Aaron: I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm bummed that you find this hurtful. A couple folks have been a touch excited in their replies, but it seems exceptionally restrained given that this is, after all, the web. :-) - Roger Benningfield
I think it is pretty obvious that evolution through natural selection is fact, but if you boil it back to the beginning of life, something caused the first living organism to exist. It was either dumb luck, as the theory of evolution states, or an instigator/creator, "helped" the first organism to exist. Dumb luck vs. creator. I have no problem with a science teacher spending 15 minutes to bring up this point and state that as far a scientist are concerned we have no evidence to prove what happened. - Bryan Clark
