I've taken a screen shot of the part that strikes me as the most interesting: the fact that pensions came into full fashion as a result of Social Security, and not the other way around with Social Security intending to supplement an existing pension system. - FFing Enigma

Correct me if I am ill informed, SS was not intended to support you in retirement but to supplement what you saved? - Janet-The Bottley Crue

Depends on how you look at it, Janet. This site has a great look (men only though) at who 'retired' starting n the 1850s or so http://eh.net/encyclo... In 1850 76.6% of men 65 and older were still gainfully employed. In 1930 it was 58.0%, and in 1990 it was 18.4%. Basically: people didn't always retire. When they did, the lived with children. The "“babies-to-bank accounts" theory has interesting perspectives on this. - FFing Enigma

Reaching age 65 in the 1850's was not the normal life expectancy so I am confused by what the 76.6% is really referencing in true number ratios. I think 65 was what today's person would think of someone at 85, nearing the end of life and not being in the system 30 more years. - Janet-The Bottley Crue

Then the figure is even more telling, from that light. You're basically saying the equivalent would be 76.6% of male 85 year olds today would still be gainfully employed. - FFing Enigma

You know we're both weird when I see a really long, boring PDF on the history of pensions vs. Social Security and it makes me think of you =P - FFing Enigma

LOL Tina, no I am surmising that 76.6% of men aged 85 would be near death. - Janet-The Bottley Crue

That might be, Janet, but that doesn't change the fact that near death or not they were still working. There's a lot of good information in there as to why it might happen, and ties some good reasoning to the decline of the number of people working in agriculture. "As more opportunities for work off the farm became available, children left home and defaulted on the implicit promise to care for retired parents. Children became an unreliable source of old age support, so parents stopped relying on children -- had fewer babies -- and began saving (in bank accounts) for retirement. To support the “babies-to-bank accounts” theory, Sundstrom and David look for evidence of an inheritance-for-old age support bargain between parents and children. They find that many wills, particularly in colonial New England and some ethnic communities in the Midwest, included detailed clauses specifying the care of the surviving parent. When an elderly parent transferred property directly to a child, the contracts were particu - FFing Enigma

Tina, these contracts for property transfer and parental care are still prevalent in my locale. Farms given to oldest son and a new home erected for the parents to live on. The mindset of that time is no longer in this time. We are too portable in our society to compare the 1800's, as you stated the change to saving in banks. The market crash of '29 made the gov change SS yet again. - Janet-The Bottley Crue

I am of the opinion that Social Security should be *entirely* need-based. Free money for old people (who do not need it) is ridiculous. And that one change would make a *huge* fiscal difference. - Anthony Citrano

Anthony, these old people had their wages garnished their working lives, how fair is this? - Janet-The Bottley Crue

I agree with Anthony. It has always bothered me that Ronald Reagan collected both a presidential salary and social security at the exact same time, while in office, and he obviously didn't need either one. - April

@April, if that was done today any wage earned above a certain limit is heavily taxed to those on SS. I will need to check but something like every two dollars over you must pay a dollar back. - Janet-The Bottley Crue

And that, Mark, is why I say the line "If I can do it, anyone can!" is full of BS. Just because person A had exactly the correct life circumstances to pull themselves up from their bootstraps doesn't mean person B will as well, even if all things are exactly identical at the beginning. - FFing Enigma

Yeah, because Mark's always there high sticking, cross checking and generally enforcing for his crew. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

@Janet: how ‘fair’ (or better yet, how fiscally rational) is it to give people free money when they do not need it? I say give retirees back their contributions, plus some fair amount of return, and call it even. - Anthony Citrano

@Mark, it could be done a lot easier than what we're currently obligated to do. - Anthony Citrano