If it's *all* about guns, shouldn't the crime rates in Finland and the US (countries with lighter firearms restrictions) be MUCH higher than those countries with tougher firearms restrictions? - FFing Enigma

Off the top, do you know what constitutes a "crime" in this survey? - Hiro Asari

Yeah, there's no real good argument either way for or against gun ownership rights these days. Which is why those arguments go one forever. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

But the arguments need to take place. To drift too far in either direction from the center would be disaster. - Tinfoil 2.0

I believe the UN reports look at violent crimes and property crimes. There are later reports from the UN but the US stopped sending data in right around 2002 or 2003. Helpful... - FFing Enigma

Shit, i'm going in Finland next year! - stanjourdan

Good gun control laws and enforcement punish the criminals while allowing the law abiding to own guns. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

In my perfect world the current CWP licensing procedure would be required for gun ownership. You have to be legally proficient to drive a car, it makes sense to apply the same to firearms. Even though Dave is a 2nd amendment fanboi he agrees with me on this. The NRA however says such a thing is absurdly restrictive, hence my dislike for the NRA. - FFing Enigma

Matthew, should citizens have semi-automatic weapons? - Tinfoil 2.0

Alex, should citizens be limited to muskets as the framers intended? - Tinfoil 2.0

"limiting laws are dumb" - have you tried bringing a hammer on board a commercial flight lately? - Micah

Matthew, I wasn't being entirely serious on how I phrased that, but there is definitely a valid argument to be made that at the time of the Constitution, the framers couldn't possibly have understood how weapons would evolve to become so powerful. I'm simply pointing out some of the complexities of the debate. - Tinfoil 2.0

http://www.unodc.org/documen... Finland reports 0.32 homicides per 100,000 with firearm in 2006, while the USA reports 3.36. Interestingly, this statistics is high in (some) Latin American countries. - Hiro Asari

At least some of the framers could and should have understood how weapons would evolve, based on how far they had already evolved in a short amount of time in history. And the fact that they understood how important weapons were at all shows a deeper understanding there. I do not think that citizens should be limited to any small arms as long as they can be shown to be trustworthy enough to possess them. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Is there a power level beyond which responsible citizens have no place owning? Does carrying vs storing make a difference? Does visible vs concealed make a difference? - Tinfoil 2.0