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Alan Dana › Likes
Just heard interesting point: the same people who oppose waterboarding generally support abortion rights.
Alan Dana, John E. Bredehoft, Robert de Castro and 7 other people liked this
And the converse is true. Some people want to save the life of a fetus but want to torture adults. I know which side of this fence I'd rather be on.
- Robert Scoble
I favor erring on the side of the innocent life. A terrorist isn't innocent; a baby in it's mother's womb would be about as innocent as a person can get.
- Craig Eddy
Craig, the values the USA was built on say a suspect isn't automatically a terrorist. Torturing suspects would violate our principles even if it worked.
- Bruce Lewis
Second point: Information gleaned from torture is notoriously unreliable. Evil regimes use it when they want a confession and don't care if it's true.
- Bruce Lewis
Craig: there are a lot of people who were on death row who now have been found innocent. I assume the same is true of people who are up for torture.
- Robert Scoble
Third: Our torture policy is killing servicemen and servicewomen. Our policy used to be to treat detainees well. Iraqi soldiers knew that in 1991. In Desert Storm, many enemy soldiers surrendered peacefully. Today? Our enemies fight to the death, desperate not to be captured. Policy matters. Pay attention, voters!
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: good point. Religious people often don't think about secondary consequences of their choices.
- Robert Scoble
I'm a religious person, and I'm aghast that so many religious people are pro-torture. Read the book, people!
- Bruce Lewis
People who pee on toilet seats also sit on toilets. And if we keep looking for relationships then we can conclude anything that fits our belief system. We just need to find a large enough purposive sample size ....
- LPH™ and his dog P™
LPH, what baffles me is when people seem so ready to conclude something that *doesn't* fit their belief system, just because someone they perceive as an authority says it.
- Bruce Lewis
Torture, abortion, and religion. This can only end well.
- Mark H
Alice is a spammer, earned a block from me.
- Robert Scoble
Bruce, I agree. Let Fox News state this same idea and many people will be quoting it as fact.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
Sorry, Mark, this torture thing has to be talked about.
- Bruce Lewis
I agree, Bruce. It just won't end well, if at all. Nobody's mind will be changed. We'll all just vent. C'est la vie.
- Mark H
"Suspected" terrorists *may* indeed be innocent. Babies in the womb: ain't no doubt.
- Craig Eddy
Robert - followed you on this one - Alice was blocked. Hey Mark - I'm not venting and enjoy reading other people's passions. But you are right that I'll make up my own mind.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
Could we maybe drop the abortion part of this discussion? I think Mark is right about that part. Torture, though, I think there's room for people to adjust their thinking.
- Bruce Lewis
Waterboarding isn't torture. If you want to know what torture really is, please lookup what Saddam used to do to people. The fact is, waterboarding saved countless American lives, but of course we won't know how many because Obama won't release the documents showing the results. Transparency....pffff.
- Spencer
LPH: Alice was reported as a spammer to the authorities in the spam reporting group. Thanks! Craig: I don't see a fetus as a human being with rights. You do. There's not much you or I can say to convince each other. Bruce is right, let's drop the abortion. Tying that to torture is lame anyway, they aren't tied.
- Robert Scoble
Spencer: that's actually false based on the evidence. Please back up a statement like that. Here's a hint: you can't because what actually happened is that we got false information out of our suspects and that led us into a war that we should never have been in.
- Robert Scoble
Gotta go people. But really look at the torture issue with an open mind. It's super important.
- Bruce Lewis
Yeah, I gotta go. By the way, on the topic that started this, there's an article saying that Christians should be against torture. Just saw that on Google News. Oh, here it is. http://www.stltoday.com/blogzon...
- Robert Scoble
Wooo - Spencer? The statements "Waterboarding is not torture .. and saved American lives" has no factual support. You are just repeating what others claim.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
Haha! "Christians should be against torture"? That's not happening until Sunday Service is abolished :P
- MλTT
Those who don't think waterboarding isn't torture are choosing to ignore actual evidence deliberately or otherwise. Those who think a foetus has an immortal soul injected into it by an invisible sky-pixie at some point between fertilisation and cell-division or that it is in some way special are also choosing to ignore actual evidence deliberately or otherwise. If the original tweeter is looking for a correlation then I think I've found it.
- Mark H
Wow Mark, you have EVIDENCE that a baby doesn't have a soul? That's amazing. I'd love to see that.
- Craig Eddy
Yes. And I'll show it to you when you show me some evidence that you do.
- Mark H
Never claimed I had any evidence, Mark. That, I believe, is why we call it "faith".
- Craig Eddy
Then it wouldn't really matter whether I had evidence or not, since you're choosing to ignore any.
- Mark H
No Mark, I'm not choosing to "ignore" it. In fact, I asked to see it.
- Craig Eddy
Mark: which is why we will never get to agreement on these issues because there's no evidence that one can bring to the table that will get either of us to change our minds. Which is why talk radio usually bans the discussion of these kinds of topics.
- Robert Scoble
Maybe some injection on a methodology for gaining facts would help. Take the null hypothesis:"Waterboarding is not torture" and now work to show that it is in fact torture. How is waterboarding torture? "Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is: "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person...
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- LPH™ and his dog P™
Craig: to have these kinds of arguments first one must come to agreement on what a soul is. That is not as easy as it might sound. Only then can you even start considering evidence as to whether such a soul is formed at conception or at birth or some place in between. But I don't have time to get into it, gotta get some sleep, so I'll leave this to the professionals. Heheh.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: yeah, the answer is well above all of our pay grades. I just get very defensive when I hear people express disdain for people of faith as if they were ignoramuses.
- Craig Eddy
Craig: I was very religious for more than a decade of my 44 years. Then I saw an open brain surgery and it changed everything about what I believed. It also dramatically changed how I think of my "soul." But most religious people, I've found, are not willing to open their minds to the idea that they aren't anything more than a computer. A very complex computer, to be sure. Some questions that get them stuck:
- Robert Scoble
1. If you go to heaven, do you meet up with your loved ones? In my case, if I said yes, I'd then ask myself "do I meet my mom the way she was when she died, or do I get to meet the 21 year old version?"
- Robert Scoble
2. If you have a soul, is your soul closer to a battery or does it include all your memories and personality too?
- Robert Scoble
3. If you had a brain injury which left you paraplegic, which one of you would go to heaven (or hell), the pre injury one, or the post injury one?
- Robert Scoble
4. If life begins at conception why don't we celebrate that day instead of your birth day?
- Robert Scoble
By then usually a huge argument will start. So, answer carefully!
- Robert Scoble
As someone who usually scoffs when someone injects "I'm a religious person" .. I can give a different perspective. Does it really matter in a conversation for someone to say they are religious? Historically, most of the bloodiest and worst events on this planet were done in the name of religion. Why inject it into the fold? Instead, use the ideas of your religion as the basis. For example, torture is cruel because I would not want anyone to do it to me.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
I don't know the answers to those questions. I do believe that there's a dimension that we can't perceive. Similar to the book Flatland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...)
- Craig Eddy
LPH: most of "Christians" I met in my decade of being a believer were people who liked to see the world in black and white. So, if someone is in jail they MUST be guilty. They didn't like having to hear about issues that aren't black and white. Really, our human brains are awesome pattern recognizers and when they can't see a pattern we like one put there anyway. Which is why religion exists and why most people need it to feel good.
- Robert Scoble
Craig: well, we certainly have things that we can't perceive. There are gamma rays going through your body right now and you can't perceive those unless you have a measuring device.
- Robert Scoble
Craig: I can answer all of those questions and quite accurately. Our science around the brain is quite developed, even though there's still lots of things we don't understand.
- Robert Scoble
LPH: of course I'm painting with a broad brush, though. Not all Christians are black and white thinkers. It's just a pattern I recognized.
- Robert Scoble
Yes, I knew it was a generalization. My grandpa used to say "Religion is for people who need it." Guess that is from a practical perspective. However, I tend to keep an arms length from religion. Some people use religion as an excuse to hurt others.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
Robert: Actually, Atheists seem to be fairly b&w thinkers, too. I know I am.
- MλTT
Craig, just to clarify: looking through your comments here you've not said whether you think waterboarding is torture or not, simply that you think it's okay to do it to suspected terrorists. Either you think it's okay to torture, or you don't think it is torture. Your answer has a bearing on what I want to ask next.
- Mark H
It isn't just b&w - but really - people try to be succinct and precise - which leads to understatements or overstatements to their actual thoughts. After all, we cannot understand people's intentions and only can measure their behaviors.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
Matt: which is why I'm not an atheist. I'm pretty sure there's no god, or at least nothing like what the bible says is god, but I'm not absolutely 100% sure, either, so I keep an open mind.
- Robert Scoble
this is news? I support a woman's right to choose. "prolife" usually equates with "propatriarchy in my book.
- WDavidStephenson
Gender and the family unit discussions are also controversial but isn't patriarchy usually an extreme view that the male dominates the family unit?
- LPH™ and his dog P™
Mark: if we're convinced that we can save thousands of lives by torturing someone we feel fairly certain has information that can only be obtained using those methods, and that person is materially involved in the operation (i.e., not someone who "overheard" plans in a coffee shop), then I say get the snippers out and start cutting.
- Craig Eddy
Wait a second - if waterboarding isn't torture then I should be able to waterboard my teenagers whenever they refuse to tell me where they were all night. Hmm -
- LPH™ and his dog P™
Craig: the problem is that we have pretty deep studies that if you apply torture you'll get false information. Think about it, if someone is torturing you you'll say anything to get the torture to stop.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: I never thought about it that way. Damn television, giving me unrealistic views on torturing people :)
- MλTT
Robert: I do not for a minute believe there is ANYONE in the CIA or elsewhere who *enjoys* torturing people and has been allowed to maintain their position. So if it's not giving valuable, actionable, reliable information then it wouldn't be employed. I think that's why Cheney is trying to get the documentation released.
- Craig Eddy
I agree that torture is useless as a means of obtaining actionable intelligence. I wonder if it might not be an effective punitive tactic once a suspect is found guilty, but my hunch is that these people are undeterrable. And that's because they believe in a preposterous fable about a father figure superhero who lives in the sky and condemns his children to eternal torment if they break any of a large number of incredibly uncongenial and capricious rules. It's a good thing *we* don't do that.
- Alan Chamberlain
LPH: sorry, I don't think your kids' whereabouts constitutes sufficient cause for extreme measures :)
- Craig Eddy
Craig. No, Cheney is trying to get "some" information released because of legal issues. Torture is an illegal action and prosecution is possible. He's just defending himself against possible action.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
aye, torture is not a way to get real information - you'd be more accurate with stab in the dark guesses. It's also an act that goes against the principles of compassion. Surely the better way to gain information is to offer sanctuary and protection in exchange for information, with the stipulation that if the info turns out to be false they'll be tried and sentenced for their crimes....
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- alphaxion
*sigh* ""I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was," the former vice president added. Read more: "CIA Denies Cheney's Request To Declassify Interrogation Documents | AHN | May 15, 2009" - http://www.allheadlinenews.com/article...
- Craig Eddy
Craig: a lot of people do want revenge for 9/11, though. My brother is like that. He wants to kick the shit out of one of "those people." There are plenty in the military and other places who like inflicting pain on others. You should hear some of the stories of how prisoners are treated in California, not even Guantanamo.
- Robert Scoble
Craig - notice the precision is Cheney's language: "those memos" does not constitute precision because by keeping things vague some people conclude he's referring to particular memos -- it's just fancy speak to make some people believe there is a memo somewhere clearing him.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
Alan: the threat of pain in the future won't keep humans from doing nasty stuff. Heck, look at how many people still smoke, even though there's a very real chance they'll get a nasty cancer in the future.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Well then I hope your brother doesn't work at the CIA. I don't want any emotion in the process. =)
- Craig Eddy
Craig: no, luckily he doesn't. But there are humans who get into all places that are flawed. We see police officers all the time who shouldn't be in the position they are in. Or pilots who shouldn't have been flying. You can't guarantee me that everyone in the CIA is squeeky clean.
- Robert Scoble
Craig, people are human. It's impossible to keep emotion out of the process. Especially when the process spoken of involves what may or may not be torture. The adrenaline and endorphin releases alone would bring emotion into the equation, regardless of who is involved.
- FFing Enigma
Robert: nope, can't guarantee that. Can't even guarantee that if they *do* exist there that they're found out and removed from those positions. However, given what I know from people who work at the agency, it's highly unlikely that someone performing "torture" for purely sadistic reasons does it very many times before they're "removed".
- Craig Eddy
Craig: I'd like to believe that, but I have seen systems where incompetence is accepted too often for me to buy into that completely.
- Robert Scoble
Tina: agreed, if you're talking "24" style. But we're not. We're talking about an organization and a process that is involved, not just a single person or even a small group of people implementing (having said that, that's an assumption based on many factors, not first-hand knowledge). But I prefer to assume that we're basically the good guys even with a Democrat as president. =)
- Craig Eddy
Craig, the bad apple theory doesn't really work. This is why lawyers spent time trying to define waterboarding as legal - even though there were decades of legal briefs stating waterboarding is torture.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
And, LPH, there is a HUGE difference between one off torture to try to get a specific result and systemic torture. When it's systemic everything changes about the acceptability of behavior.
- Robert Scoble
Of course we are, Craig. There's an organization and a process involved in my job, too. If I'm faced with a problem that requires a time sensitive solution I get worked up about it, I can feel my heart race, I call sense my focus shifting, and I can tell that I start to work quicker than I should and am prone to making mistakes. And this is when dealing with a database, not extracting...
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- FFing Enigma
Correct Robert. Lawyers were trying to legalize waterboarding - so the organization could take part in the exercise - and not select individuals.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
Tina: yes, but my point was that the people involved in implementing the intelligence gather more than likely aren't doing it for kicks. Believe me, they undergo psychological profiling and all sorts of testing to make sure of that.
- Craig Eddy
Craig: you agree waterboarding is torture then and you approve of torture to extract information that may or may not be useful. Are you married? If you suspected your wife was having an affair (think: danger of STDs, there's lives at risk here!, yours!) would you be in favour of torturing her just to see? If not, and I really hope not, then can you find that happy halfway house where...
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- Mark H
Yep, we are the people who put the living before the zygotes of possibility!
- ursi
This has been fun, but I dare say most of us probably have more effective things to do today. I know I do. I'm off to search for info on Wolfram|Alpha and whether or not there's an API we can hook into. And write up my justification for ripping the foundation out of our application and replacing it with Microsoft MEF.
- Craig Eddy
Robert, the potential for retributive punishment does deter some people from destructive (or self-destructive) acts. Just not all of them. I'm not really advocating corporal punishment for those convicted of terrorism, just pointing out that it has been an effective deterrent in some societies throughout history. The threat of eternal torment is indeed one reason why a great many people...
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- Alan Chamberlain
Oh - let's rearrange the idea - people who don't accept abortion are the first to push a country into war.
- LPH™ and his dog P™
When I see more pro-lifers start voting for issues like child health care, increased funding for foster care, and broader equality in adoption, I might start thinking this argument carries water. Its insidious to support birth at all costs and then leave them to languish after.
- Bailey McCann
I think it's a mistake to equate an unborn life of innocence by virtue of no impacting actions upon society with the life of one who commits conscious acts against others in society.
- JonT
it is interesting to see these issues combined and to see how pro-choichers jump the tracks to moral absolutes suddenly when it comes to these three waterboarding cases. i have been solidly pro-life for 30 years now and have been derided for having 'moral certainty' which is really a silly defense for abortion to begin with. The burden of proof regarding making a case that abusing the...
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- Andrew Deal
how are those two things related in any way?
- Kathryn Martyn
I understand where liberal people (I'm fairly liberal, just not in the case of abortion) are coming from on this. On the one hand you have an act which represents the entire nation (torture for our national security), and thus should _properly_ represent the nation (i.e.: if the nation is collectively against it, it shouldn't happen). And on the other hand, from a liberal perspective,...
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- Andrew VanderVeen
bailey: i pity the person who takes your point seriously. supporting birth at all costs, which is a burden i can accept. does not mean i need to favor every public program conceived of for children. Each program stands or falls on its own merits. history clearly shows that private programs are the most effective, but that is a whole nuther topic.
- Andrew Deal
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