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American › Comments

Sean McBride
Well, I finally moved the needle on discussion about the Judaism/Zionism issue on Mondoweiss.
It took a few months but I knew that eventually this controversy would get sorted out in a reasonable way. - Sean McBride
See this discussion -- the topic has opened up considerably: "Israel should pay 1.4 million Palestinians to leave Gaza, Moshe Feiglin says" http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - Sean McBride
Why do you care about saving Judaism? You need to connect with the *real world of life and death*, the Palestine plight and the Zionizing of the USA government. The last thing you need to do is encourage Jews to think about themselves and study their Judaism navel any more than they already do---that self absorption and narcissism is their problem to begin with. - American
The main objective here is to find ways to modify the influence of the Israeli government on the American government -- and to reduce the hold of Old Testament cultism on the minds of American Jews and Christian fundamentalists. We need to reconnect and realign American culture with the attitudes and value system of its Enlightenment founders. - Sean McBride
Are you a chess player? - Sean McBride
If you want to rid the US of Isr/Jewish/Zionist influence you go after the US politicians and the media . The Jews and Judaism haven't changed in 2000 years and they are not going to. And no one has time to wait for them to if they were capable of change. - American
I/P isnt a chess game. Maybe you need to be plunked down in a Palestine refugee camp or stuck in Gaza the next time the Jews and the Judaism you want to save drop a 1000 tons of bombs on men, women and children. This is not an intellectual pursuit or game for hobbyist . - American
*All* political conflicts are exercises in combinatorial game theory. If you can't play, you can't win. - Sean McBride
# some chess concepts you should take the trouble to master 1. absolute pin 2. advantage 3. attraction 4. bind 5. blockade 6. blunder 7. breakthrough 8. brilliancy 9. building a bridge 10. calculate 11. check 12. checkmate 13. clearance 14. combination 15. connected passed pawns 16. connected rooks 17. consolidation 18. control of the center 19. counterplay 20. cover 21. cramped 22.... more... - Sean McBride
"Going after" US politicians and the media will get you nowhere -- you need an effective strategic plan -- one that is superior to that of your opponent. - Sean McBride
The Israel lobby has been running circles around its opponents for decades now by playing smart. - Sean McBride
For the definitions of the chess terms above, see [Wikipedia; Glossary of chess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...] - Sean McBride
At the highest levels of play, you maneuver your opponent into a position in which it defeats itself. That takes strategic planning and skill -- not blunt forward attacks based on the emotion of the moment. - Sean McBride
How to play stupid: [Wikipedia; Sonny Corleone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...] and [Youtube; Sonny is Killed - The Godfather (4/9) Movie CLIP (1972) HD https://www.youtube.com/watch...] - Sean McBride
Keep deluding yourself that this is all some chess game of great strategy instead of the simple corruption that it is. Corruption is not 'maneuvered" out, it is attacked and thrown out. Live long enough and you will learn that if history hasnt woken you to that fact yet. - American
Put another way: if Tom Brady focused on hurling verbal abuse at Peyton Manning, would the New England Patriots beat the Denver Broncos? Winning in politics is not about yelling at your opponents -- it's about executing a strategic plan with skill. You need a brilliant plan and the skills with which to execute it. Planning and execution is the name of the game. And effective strategic plans usually rely on multilayered misdirection. - Sean McBride
I doubt that the National Defense University would endorse your approach to political conflict. [Wikipedia; National Defense University http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...] - Sean McBride
A conviction of moral superiority over your opponent is not sufficient to win political conflicts. - Sean McBride
The National Defense Univ?...LOL You do understand dont you that 'war plans' and strategies are 'plans' based on the use of brute 'force'. - American
And the use of brute force always occurs within a complex strategic context -- within a set of carefully prepared political plans which rely heavily on scientific propaganda and psychological warfare. Military force is a branch of politics -- not vice versa. You keep putting the cart before the horse. - Sean McBride
You are advocating the Sonny Corleone approach to politics -- as opposed to the Michael Corleone approach. Thrashing as opposed to thinking and planning. - Sean McBride
You dont really know what's involved in what I am advocating. That's your intelligence failure. You 'assume' you know. Big mistake. - American
You have been quite clear about what you are advocating -- I am capable of reading plain English. - Sean McBride
So, Sean, do you plan, single-handedly to defeat the powerful genocidal regime in Israel by using chess maneouvers and logical debates to convince "people" (who exactly?) that zionism was always embedded in Judaism? you do realize, I hope, that at least among jewish persons, the response would be 'dah"? just because Mooser puts up road blocks in your path doesn't mean there two and... more... - Danaa
As for the non-Jews, you may convince a couple of not very knowledgeable ones that indeed judaism has in it the seeds of its own destruction. And then what - eradicate it? what is your end plan? - Danaa
I think that in general, looking too hard for logic in history and/or international affairs is a bit of a dead-end street. Just as zionism is buried within the finest wrappings of "jewish values", so is illogic and bare-knuckled quest for power buried in the finest affairs of humans, including the ones who consider themselves seriously "enlightened". - Danaa
I can see why American despairs. I do too often. Though I tend to use the despair more as a mourning ritual than a tool of advocacy. For the latter, BDS, in its full-throated version, is the one and only tool remaining to us. Then again, I have done my share of talking to israelis so I know that all the best talking points in the world do not suffice to save a single gazan life, if... more... - Danaa
Or, may be your debate adversaries would be people like Annie? if she came to agree with you today, would she do any more advocacy for palestinians than she is already doing? How about Mooser? would he go charging into the woods trying to bad himself an anti-zionist or two, using his tefilin as a rope? i think the image is kind of funny though. - Danaa
OTOH, I sure don't mind you diseecting zionism/Judaism to your heart's content. I like rhetorics and am sure you'll come up with lots of facts and sources to bolster your arguments. I know I am not exactly the intended audience but because of some fondness for argumentation I'll probably remain seated when all others left the auditorium. - Danaa
These attacks by pepsi on Danaa remind one of a uniformed male Nazi viciously beating an unarmed Jewish woman with the butt of his rifle. Appalling and disgusting. And deleted. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- I apologize: as you may imagine, I can't track this group 24x7. - Sean McBride
By the way, as I mentioned before, it's easy to save full copies of FF posts with all comments to one's local or cloud drive -- and I saved a copy of this one before the deletions. If you want to see it, send me a direct message. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- you may have missed a major turn in the road here -- quite a few Mondoweiss commenters are in fact strongly interested in discussing the role of religion (Judaism, in particular) in driving and rationalizing Israeli and Zionist beliefs and policies. It's the elephant in the room that many people can't wait to address head-on. Effectively countering this religious dogma and... more... - Sean McBride
Citizen's remarks on this subject have been insightful: http://mondoweiss.net/profile... (search the page for "sean") - Sean McBride
Thanks Sean, I know you can't be everywhere at the same time. Still, some fun was had - I am practicing increasing my typing speed without adding too many typos. - Danaa
To be stalked is to be popular, right? unless...... - Danaa
The biggest problem I see with this re-examination of the religious tenets of Judaism, is that religious jews themselves, long ago, made it a cul-de-sac. They cannot be reached, and I don't mean just the ultra-orthodox but even most of the sort-of-believing observants. people like peter beinart that liberal jews love to admire. It would be great if you could make a dent in the belief... more... - Danaa
So, what about the secular humanist Jews? there you'll find quite a few who will agree that Judaism itself birthed and helped promote the toxic version of zionism we see running rampant. But to them that's just grist for the mill - reaffirming their secularness. Problem is that the jewish progressives built another shiboleth, known as "Jewish values". I call them the Tikun-olam crowd.... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- pepsi is indeed stalking you -- in a flagrant way. What he is doing has been noticed. - Sean McBride
So, assuming you know all that, i'll conclude that your target of people to convince (who are not yet) are non-jewish people who may hold zionist views. Now, if that's the case, you can see the problem Mooser had all along. If that's the target, and realizing what naivite resides in those parts, the only way you can cast doubts upon zionism is to show its deep connection to Judaism.... more... - Danaa
Do you think pepsi could be a secret fan? (yes, i know. Always the self-flattering positivist). other possibilities are more disturbing whether he is a agent or not. Sometimes, I wonder how many personas are buried in a single handle. Wondering is good exercise. - Danaa
The group has gone private again -- stalker pepsi simply won't leave Danaa alone. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- the discussion about the role of Torah/Old Testament memes in forming the attitudes of contemporary Zionists may well have a significant impact on non-Jewish Western political, policy and opinion leaders. And I think they are smart enough and decent enough to make careful discriminations on these matters that won't lead them down the road towards classical hardcore... more... - Sean McBride
Danaa -- what may happen is that non-Jewish political elites in the West may begin to hold the Jewish religious establishment (and Judaism) accountable for the behavior of Israel -- which doesn't seem unreasonable, given the facts on the table. The prospect of this development may motivate Jewish religious leaders in the Diaspora to try to influence Israel in a positive direction -- and with sincere energy and force -- not just empty feel-good words. - Sean McBride
Gawd Sean, you are such a wannabe babe in the strategy sphere. First, the only reason you 'moved the needle' is because you did a blow job for Judaism by praising it--that's the only reason Mooser even responded to you without his usual slurs. - American
I actually like several aspects of Judaism -- we could all learn a great deal from it -- it emphasizes family values, personal responsibility, hard work, achievement, love of learning, charity, philanthropy, etc. Many Jews succeed in the world because these values are their bedrock. - Sean McBride
Second, the Jews should take the advice of wasp like MRW and myself----""MRW December 25, 2014, 8:28 pm Does anyone understand the tedium these circumlocutions are having on non-Jews? They’re not doing themselves any favors. Why should non-Jews stand up for this lack of self-reflection, this inability to be smart or intelligent?'' The more the Jews talk and whine and chew their Jewish cud like cow in a pasture and obsess about themselves and their religion the more disgusted non Jews become. - American
MRW is right -- too much ethnocentrism expressed by any ethnic group in American life will lead to a backlash. - Sean McBride
'' we could all learn a great deal from it -- it emphasizes family values, personal responsibility, hard work, achievement, love of learning, charity, philanthropy, etc. Many Jews succeed in the world because these values are their bedrock. - Sean McBride).....Ugh, thats actually nauseating. Do you have little Jewish figures and shrines to Jews in your house too? LOL.... - American
American -- what is the difference between the bigotry you express towards Jews and the bigotry that Berthe expressed towards blacks? There is no difference. For some reason you find it necessary to demonize all Jews, just as Berthe found it necessary to demonize all blacks -- you simply can't acknowledge that some Jews -- many Jews -- might have positive traits. Your views on Jews are perfectly consonant with Pamela Geller's views on Muslims. - Sean McBride
'' MRW is right -- too much ethnocentrism expressed by any ethnic group in American life will lead to a backlash.'' - Sean McBride)....And you think your Jew worship is any less ethnocentric? Why dont you switch to worshiping Buddhist-ness and Buddhism ....I think we 're all over dosed with of your Jewish/Judaism obsession. And you've never explained why you are so obsessed with Jews and Judaism. Why are you? - American
Don't start your nazi hunting shit with me again little boy or I will go back on MW and verbally eviscerate your pretentious ass. You are the lying screwball on here buddy and you have a Jewish obsession mental problem. MRW says you are a Jewish supremist pretending to be a irish American, I think he is right. We are done. - American
When I point out the positive features of the Jewish tradition, I am pushing back against the ignorant and revolting antisemitism of some crazies in the anti-Zionist camp who are using controversies about Israel to try to finish the work of Adolf Hitler and to ignite a new and bigger Holocaust -- and these people are easy to spot. Generally I feel more sympathy with my own cultural tradition (European Christian) than any other tradition -- but I am not chauvinistic about it. - Sean McBride
MRW is making a fool of himself if he is claiming that I am not Irish American (and Anglo American, French American, Dutch American, Roman Catholic and Episcopalian). I've noticed that he seems to be highly susceptible to wild conspiracy theorizing. The most extreme antisemites are unable to tolerate the slightest praise for any Jew without losing their minds. - Sean McBride
American -- you didn't answer the question -- what is the difference between your views on Jews, Berthe's views on blacks and Pamela Geller's views on Muslims? There is no difference. You have no reply. If you would like, I could collect your most colorful quotes on Jews from GFTG and post them on Mondoweiss -- what do you think? - Sean McBride
Sean, I will not go off the handle here but I must point out to you that the values you list as jewish are pretty much Christian values (protestant tradition primarily). With one exception - you cite "love of learning". That however, was largely meant the Torah learning, not general learning (even though secular scholarly jews of course promote love of general learning, as does every... more... - Danaa
I am not inclined to blow-outs but can understand American's annoyance. This thread is hardly the place to extohl "Jewish values", certainly not by one who seeks a close look at the deep connection between the religion Iand its values) and the messianic/ethnocentric streak represented by zionism. You just can't mix things up like this without raising doubts as to your motivation. You,... more... - Danaa
American, don't leave me all alone now...just me and Sean - that might get a bit lonely - I like a little crowd now and then. - Danaa
Danaa -- I didn't say those values I mentioned are exclusively Jewish values -- I said I have noticed them among nearly all the Jewish families I have known or encountered -- especially the emphasis on education (the more the better) and delayed gratification (hard work). And I mention this only in response to some of the vicious comments made about all Jews by extreme antisemites like... more... - Sean McBride
Keep in mind that most of the Jewish families I have known have sent their kids to Harvard, MIT, Yale, Princeton, etc. Nearly all of them were progressives in some of the most progressive communities in the United States -- probably not typical of most Jewish families scattered around the world. Perhaps Chu had many unpleasant encounters with Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn -- I don't know. - Sean McBride
It just occurred to me that those values you mentioned - education and delayed gratification - are really quinessential Asian values. Ascribing them somehow to jews is silly, as the enormous success of Asians in America would attest to. Not only that but the "hard work" aspect is not all that typical any longer of successful jewish families. I know many who were seduced by the promise... more... - Danaa
Also I can't help but notice that there is one value entirely missing from your list of "Jewish" values - humility. Not in the play book. Not in the US and not in israel. So how much arrogance and exclusivity are people to put up with (the "bad" values) in order to to soak those magnificnet rays of the "good" values? - Danaa
Yes -- Asian culture also strenously promotes education and delayed gratification as core values -- as I said, these are not exclusively Jewish values. As to how well Jews are doing these days regarding respecting these values, one could look at the latest statistics for the number of graduates from leading universities, law schools, medical schools, business schools, etc. - Sean McBride
Everytime you choose to illustrate and list the great jewish values, Sean, you lose one or more people. Not sure why you didn't seem to get the message that just about everyone who ever visited this feed has next to zero interest in basking in the benevolence of said attributes. not one. not ever. Myself included. Which brings up the question - you always try to get people to come to... more... - Danaa
I call things the way I see them -- people can take it or leave it. The only reason I encouraged people to use this feed was to pursue discussions that have been been banned (or severely impeded) on Mondoweiss. I also encouraged them to start their own feeds and groups -- to take the initiative and break out of the box defined by top-down blog-style discussion forums. But many folks are still living in a 1990s model of Internet communications. - Sean McBride
Every time you choose to illustrate and list the great jewish qualities, Sean, you lose one or more people. Not sure why you didn't seem to get the message that just about everyone who ever visited this feed has next to zero interest in basking in the benevolence of said attributes. not one. not ever. Myself included. Which brings up the question - you always try to get people to come... more... - Danaa
American has stormed off before -- and he is always welcome back. We both have our individual views on these matters and we don't hesitate to express them. - Sean McBride
But on this feed you can also see the downside of too much real-time back and forth. Nothing seems to survive the onslaught of temper. At the end, temper wins. may be the delayed posting of comments provided by moderated blogs is a opportunity for a cool-off period. WE humans who care about world events tend to be a quick-tempered and fast on the draw crowd. I think it's part of the DNA... more... - Danaa
I don't see that as a problem -- I am focused here on the even-tempered flow of posting high-quality items on Mideast politics. If you find the lead items of news value, good -- if not, by all means turn to other, better sources. - Sean McBride
But sean, you already know all too well what makes American (and others) storm off - it's the tacit accusation/insinuations from you that they are somehow anti-semitic. that people should become riled up by accusations is simple enough to understand. The question is, why do you keep doing it? you already know the outcome and can surely expect it. If people storming off doesn't bother you, fine, it's your choice. But it bothers me, and perhaps others who are reading. - Danaa
On a positive note, my 8 finger typing skills have greatly improved, thanks to FF. I should send them a thank you note for the training. - Danaa
To repeat this important point: when I see clear cases of antisemitic language, I call them out -- and I will always do so. And the reason I do this is because I think they degrade the ability to pursue a useful critique of key issues regarding the I/P conflict. By all means feel free to disagree -- or even to hang out in GFTG. It's a free Internet. Build whatever discussion communities most appeal to your tastes. - Sean McBride
I like the chat capabilities of FF -- my mind tends to move quickly (as do my typing fingers), and an hour from now I will be on to other topics. Catch it while its hot. - Sean McBride
Regarding type A personalities (in reference to arrogance, etc.) -- I tend to have a high tolerance for them -- many of the most interesting people I have known have been completely impossible. But they were still worthwhile -- as long as there was some creative activity going on in their heads. - Sean McBride
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
‘Desperate’ Senator Graham promises ‘violent backlash’ by Congress if Palestinians go to UN - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
Senator Lindsey Graham wanted to visit Israel "in the most desperate way" to convey to Netanyahu that Congress will have "violent pushback" against a Palestinian statehood bid at the U.N., and that Congress will reimpose sanctions on Iran "at the drop of a hat."
Traitor trumps anti semite every day of the week, in every country in the universe, and always will. Traitor is what will US Zionist. Not games and chess. - American
Traitor is what has deported the Jews 109 times in history....every prince, potentate and king when confronted by his populace on the Jews perfidy has chosen to throw the Jews over in favor of holding onto his subjects. It will be the same again. Never learn is not worth saving. - American
"Traitor" doesn't trump "antisemite" when you have no control over or influence on the mainstream media outlets, policy centers, academic departments and government agencies which define and frame the public conversation on these issues. In chess terms, you need to take stock of your "material" and position on the board -- you have very little to work with. For the Israel lobby, bottling you up is as simple as pie -- not even worth the expenditure of a pawn. - Sean McBride
American -- my comments in this vein are not intended to attack you -- merely to help you improve your game. Feel free to ignore all my advice and do as you will. - Sean McBride
Reminder: Lindsey Graham is a Southern Christian Zionist from South Carolina who is fully responsible for his own words and actions. The residents of South Carolina who keep voting him into office, most of whom are not Jewish, are also fully responsible for their actions. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Florida congressman denied access to censored pages from 9/11 report | The Miami Herald - http://www.miamiherald.com/news...
Florida congressman denied access to censored pages from 9/11 report | The Miami Herald
"The U.S. House Intelligence Committee has denied a Florida congressman’s request for access to 28 classified pages from the 2002 report of Congress’ Joint Inquiry into the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Rep. Alan Grayson, D-Orlando, told BrowardBulldog.org he made his request at the suggestion of House colleagues who have read them as they consider whether to support a proposed resolution urging President Obama to open those long-censored pages to the public." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Redacted on orders from then-President George W. Bush, the report says the 28 pages concern “specific sources of foreign support” for the 9/11 hijackers while they were in the U.S. Specifically, that is “the role of Saudi Arabia in funding 9/11,” according to former Florida Senator Bob Graham, who co-chaired the Joint Inquiry and helped write the 28 pages. Graham has long called for... more... - Sean McBride
If you want to unravel the 9/11 coverup, start here. - Sean McBride
All we know is that Fla Sen. Graham -->*who helped write the pages*<--- says it was Saudi. And there are like 119 Saudi Princes who could funded them....so which one or ones if it was Saudis? I believe 0 that comes out anyone in congress. - American
My calculation on this: let's tug on the loose Saudi thread and see what else comes tumbling out, extending well beyond Saudi Arabia. Plenty, I'm betting. That is why TPTB are so adamant about blocking the public release of those 28 pages. If the New York Times and Washington Post still possessed any real investigative energy (think back to the days of the Pentagon Papers, Watergate and Iran-Contra), they would have been all over this story quite a few months ago. - Sean McBride
Think back to the days after 911 when Fox news was all over the Israeli angle and operatives around 911 and the hijackers and got suddenly shut down. - American
Saudi is a red herring. Saudi itself had nothing to gain by 911. Saudi objected to the invasion of Iraq. - American
The uppermost levels of the Saudi government were thoroughly penetrated by both CIA and Mossad decades ago. Saudi Arabia has been a CIA/Mossad tool for quite some time now. - Sean McBride
Any activity that intensifies public doubt about the 9/11 official story helps create openings for triggering a reinvestigation into *all* aspects of the story. You work with what you've got. One step at a time. - Sean McBride
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Israel should pay 1.4 million Palestinians to leave Gaza, Moshe Feiglin says - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
The west didn't try to "weaken" Hitler in WW2 but destroy him; and Israel must undertake the same approach with Hamas, says Moshe Feiglin, deputy speaker of the Knesset and a Likud leader
The West would be better advised to destroy the zionist. - American
Pro-Israel interests now dominate the West -- quite thoroughly. Look at Sheldon Adelson, Haim Saban and Michael Bloomberg for a few examples. - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
On the Judaism/Zionism issue a few passages leap out: - Sean McBride
1. a tremendous miracle is going on today in the land of Israel 2. biblical cities 3. destroying your enemy 4. Eretz Israel 5. Every square inch of historical Palestine belongs to the Jewish people “because God gave it to us." 6. feminism has destroyed family values, something essential to Judaism 7. Judea and Samaria 8. long Jewish history 9. religious nationalist movement 10. the land... more... - Sean McBride
With regard to "Jewish law," it is apparent that Feiglin is referring to Jewish *religious* law. - Sean McBride
Annie wrote: "Feiglin’s religious nationalist movement “Manhigut Yehudit“, meaning “Jewish Leadership” is the largest faction within the Likud Central Committee, which decides Likud Party policy." - Sean McBride
Likud dominates the Israeli government. The worldwide Israel lobby marches in lockstep with the Israeli government. - Sean McBride
To effectively challenge this political agenda one must deconstruct the Torah-based religious ideology that empowers and supports it. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
chain of command: Judaism+Zionism > Manhigut Yehudit > Likud > Israeli government > Israel lobby+Jewish religious establishment > US Mideast policy - Sean McBride
Judaism is the core driver. - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Mooser, - Sean McBride
Stop to think about it: Jewish religious Zionism is a much bigger issue than liberal Zionism or neoconservative Zionism. - Sean McBride
Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jewish leaders have been passionate supporters of Zionism for decades now -- they comprise the core of the Israel lobby and the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. What binds together many liberal Zionists on the left (in the Democratic Party) and neoconservative Zionists on the right (in the Republican Party) is their emotional commitment to Judaism. Their Zionism is grounded in their Judaism and their childhood religious indoctrination. - Sean McBride
Eventually Phil Weiss, Adam Horowitz, Max Blumenthal, Alex Kane and other Jewish progressive anti-Zionists will need to confront this issue directly and forthrightly -- not evade or dance around it. - Sean McBride
What is at the core of this Torah-based ideology? -- the belief that God has ordained that a special people and nation -- one set apart from and raised above all other peoples and nations -- must inhabit a special piece of territory in the Mideast with Jerusalem as its capital. - Sean McBride
Earlier, with regard to this important article: - Sean McBride
"1,350 U.S. Rabbis Denounce the American Council for Judaism" | Jewish Telegraphic Agency http://www.jta.org/1956... - Sean McBride
I posed the question: so why is this Jewish religious establishment much stronger now in 2014 than it was in 1956 with regard to American Mideast policy? We need to see more conversation on this topic. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Teapot, - Sean McBride
You wrote: - Sean McBride
"Frankly, I don’t think this has much to do with the Torah. Sadly, you can find people like Feiglin in every religion and every secular ideology." - Sean McBride
Nearly the entire Jewish religious establishment supports Zionism -- not just Moshe Feiglin -- and it uses the Torah and Judaism to justify Zionist and Israeli policies. - Sean McBride
Without the bedrock support of the Jewish religious establishment, the entire Zionist project would probably collapse. - Sean McBride
What binds together liberal Zionist Chuck Schumer in the Democratic Party and neoconservative Zionist Elliott Abrams in the Republican Party? -- they are both Jewish religious Zionists who believe that Judaism and Zionism constitute a single seamless ideology. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Mooser, - Sean McBride
You should try browsing the JTA Archive: http://www.jta.org/jta-arc... - Sean McBride
I just noticed this article on the Judaism/Zionism issue, published on September 14, 1965: - Sean McBride
"800 Rabbis in Call for Zionist Enrollment on Eve of 5726 New Year" http://www.jta.org/1965... - Sean McBride
"More than 800 rabbis of the three branches of American Judaism–Orthodox, Conservative and Reform–from 44 states, signed a proclamation today, calling upon “our fellow-Jews throughout the United States to identify themselves with the program of the Zionist Organization of America through membership enrollment, as a vital service to the progress of Israel and the future of our people.”" - Sean McBride
It would be useful to construct a timeline for all the documents and events that define the relationship between Judaism and Zionism. Over the last century, the ties that bind establishment Judaism and Zionism together have grown ever tighter. There is no longer a speck of daylight between them. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Mooser, - Sean McBride
This is the question that fascinates me: to what degree have the archetypes, legends, memes, myths, narratives, symbols and themes of the Torah and Old Testament strongly influenced, and resonated with, Jewish secular minds -- even militantly Jewish secular minds? - Sean McBride
Think, for instance, of David Ben-Gurion -- a self-described atheist. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Mooser, - Sean McBride
"Like I said, Sean wants to have one of those “Which-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg-salad-sandwich?” discussions. They’re useless." - Sean McBride
The archetypes, legends, memes, myths, narratives, symbols and themes used by contemporary religious Zionists, both Jewish and Christian, have their explicit origins in the Torah and Old Testament. There is nothing remotely chicken-or-egg about it. The Torah provides the ideological foundation for contemporary religious Zionism (and most of secular Zionism as well). - Sean McBride
BEGIN ARTICLE - Sean McBride
TITLE Zionism as Judaism - Sean McBride
AUTHOR Robert Wolfe - Sean McBride
DATE April 2005 - Sean McBride
PUBLICATION The Jewish Magazine - Sean McBride
BEGIN EXCERPTS - Sean McBride
There exist innumerable definitions of Zionism. The one I prefer is: Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. The question I want to raise here is: what is the relationship of Zionism to Judaism? Some see Zionism as an outgrowth of Judaism, others as its antithesis. In my view, Zionism is Judaism. - Sean McBride
Anyone who has studied this religion in any depth can have no doubt as to what it was all about. It was about the expectation that if the Jews performed the mitzvot correctly, the Messiah would come and restore the Jews to the land of their birth. This was the faith which sustained the Jewish people during the long centuries of exile, segregation and persecution. If there was a... more... - Sean McBride
From the 13th century onwards, those who sought to "force the end" were identified with the teachings of Kabbalah. And central to Kabbalah was a text known as the "Zohar", which taught that only in the land of Israel could the religion of the Jews reach its full stature. Starting in the late 15th century in connection with the expulsion from Spain and Portugal and the rise of the... more... - Sean McBride
The goals of the secular Zionists were at heart no different from those of the religious Zionists. Those goals were to create a Jewish state and society in the land of Israel that would serve both to rehabilitate the Jewish people and act as a light unto the nations. This was the program of the "Zohar" no less than it was the program of Ben Gurion, and Ben Gurion repeatedly described this program as "Messianic" in his writings and speeches. ... - Sean McBride
Properly understood, Judaism is first and foremost Judahism. The word Judaism is derived from the word Judah, which is the English form of the Hebrew word "Yehudah". Judah was originally the name of one of the Hebrew tribes, and because it was the tribe of David, Judah became the name of the Hebrew kingdom which David founded. In other words, Judah in ancient times was not the name of a... more... - Sean McBride
The people of Judah also had a religion, but this religion is not perpetuated by any modern version of Judaism since it was centered around the Temple in Jerusalem, which no longer exists, and required the sacrifice of large numbers of sheep, a ritual which is no longer practiced. What remains of Judah today is above all the ideal of a Hebrew language nation state on the territory of... more... - Sean McBride
END EXCERPTS - Sean McBride
END ARTICLE - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Citizen, - Sean McBride
The discussion about religious Zionism -- both Judaism and Christian Zionism -- is really about the power of the Israel lobby in contemporary American politics and the ideological glue that holds the lobby together. Until that ideology is effectively challenged and deconstructed, I doubt that progressive anti-Zionists are going to be successful in changing the attitudes and policies of the US Congress on Israel and Mideast politics. - Sean McBride
You wrote: "Perhaps seanmcbride’s stress in at least partially on the notion it’s time to look at Judaism the way we have evolved to look at Christianity in the USA?" - Sean McBride
Precisely. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
"As for the relationship to non-Jews – sure, some, like Cyrus or the “good” Pharoah are positively described, but only because they were ‘good for the jews”. It doesn’t change the fact that the bible in its entirety revolves around the jews and what’s good or bad for them. It is profoundly ethnocentric, parochial narcisistic, and often incredibly small-minded. But then again, I am sure you’ll be able to find “universalist” messages if you look hard enough with sufficiently rosy tinted glasses." - Sean McBride
lol.....good for Danaa,I am sick of the bible babble crap that goes on in I/P--- what we have is a cult ethnic mafia screwing Palestine, the US and everyone else..I dont care what they base their cult on or where it came from...just get rid of them. - American
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Cant believe they let this comment appear on that thread---->'' slandau December 24, 2014, 1:21 pm......" The most serious danger to Israel is not from their neighbors in the Mid East, but from the growing army of outraged Americans and Europeans who have been silenced in exactly the way Prof. Mearsheimer has outlined. The practice of shaming and defaming truth-tellers is traditional in... more... - American
Here is the permanent link for that comment: http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - Sean McBride
slandau seems to be arguing that the authortarian/totalitarian strains in Zionism are grounded in the authoritarian/totalitarian strains in Judaism. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
# selected Mondoweiss commenters: sorted by total number of comments as of December 23, 2014
1. Annie: 25,584 2. Mooser: 19,747 3. Hostage: 10,158 4. Walid: 6,946 5. hophmi: 6,654 6. Taxi: 6,455 7. lysias: 4,630 8. Krauss: 1,991 - Sean McBride
Annie and Mooser combined: 45,331 comments. - Sean McBride
wow....thats like over 5000 comments a year for annie or 14 a day. I berated myself for wasting so much time commenting and mine only come to about 3 a day over a 5 year period and a lot of those are one liners. That is a Lot of time. - American
American
http://www.reuters.com/article... China foreign minister says willing to help Russia
'' (Reuters) - China is willing to help Russia if needed but believes that the country has the ability to overcome its current economic problems, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi was quoted as saying in a state newspaper on Monday. The ruble has dropped about 45 percent against the dollar this year, suffering particularly steep falls early last week. President Vladimir Putin has declined to call it a crisis and said the currency would eventually rise again. - American
'' Wang, speaking to reporters over the weekend, said that Russia also had the "wisdom" to get out of difficulties, the official China Daily reported. - American
'' "If the Russian side needs, we will provide necessary assistance within our capacity," he said, noting that the two countries had consistently helped each other. - American
'' China's trade minister, also speaking at the weekend, proposed more use of China's currency in settling trade with Russia in the face of the weaker ruble to ensure safe and reliable trade. China and Russia have close diplomatic and economic ties, particularly in the energy sector. - American
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Cindy Corrie: What Mondoweiss Means To Me - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
Cindy Corrie writes the latest message in our series What Mondoweiss Means To Me: “Please join me today in giving to Mondoweiss. We must act together to ensure the continuation of news that sheds light on all who suffer from the violence and brutality visited upon Palestinians, and on all who struggle against it. Support for Mondoweiss is a practical way to work for human rights.” We are asking Mondoweiss readers to help to raise $60,000 by December 31. Please donate and tell us what Mondoweiss means to you.
I don't think I will donate this time. I hardly ever comment there any longer. I don't know if it has always been the way it is now or not. It seems to me that when I first started there it wasn't so anti gentile, at least in the comment section, although Phil and marc ellis did do numbers on gentiles and Christians on occasion. Scanning the 100 comments a few days ago I really had a... more... - American
weareone said the reason she dropped out of MW and anything related (like this FF) was the constant blaming and attacking of Christians. I can't blame her for not wanting to be subjected to that. I wonder if maybe the good commenters we have seen disappear like Thomas Rutherford and others didn't drop out for the uselessness of engaging with that attitude and the mixture of religion and politics.. - American
I merely got a glimpse of weareone on here, what an amazing mind. Looked up on Mondoweiss, Hostage was struggling for words on the Chomsky reference weareone brought up. Yes it does seem blaming Christianity for Zionism is a common feature. Zionism after all casts Jews as eternal victims rather than players on the stage like everyone else. - peacefly
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
‘TNR’ pivots to racial diversity, away from ‘privileged demographic of political elites’ - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
Gabriel Snyder, editor of the New Republic, said new writers "will be diverse in race, gender, and background." The magazine "can no longer afford to represent the views of one privileged class, nor appeal solely to a small demographic of political elites."
Glad to hear that. - American
Great news. - peacefly
Sean McBride
As anti-Semitism heats up, so does Fuel For Truth | The Times of Israel - http://www.timesofisrael.com/as-anti...
As anti-Semitism heats up, so does Fuel For Truth | The Times of Israel
"“Being pro-Israel today is a scary thing,” says Ron Wasserman, 35, who runs the boot camp. “Young Jews are afraid to be pro-Israel. That’s one of the biggest problems we face. Why are they afraid? Part of it is they don’t have the facts. Also, the other side seems very confident and is intimidating. Unless you have a baseline of knowledge you won’t have the backbone to come out in support of Israel. We do role-play; it’s live-action fire so people will be prepared.”" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Muldoon said she’s naturally persuasive but wanted to learn more history about Israel and sharpen her skills. A key of the boot camp was to learn how to speak in a calm and conversational tone, as opposed to screaming, which can often undermine an argument, she said." - Sean McBride
"Richards said that some of the graduates join the organization, which has about 260 members and hundreds of other volunteers. Others fan out to join UJA, AIPAC, AJC, FIDF and other Jewish organizations." - Sean McBride
c; Israeli op; Fuel for Truth - Sean McBride
c; World op; another century, another jewish problem. - American
Jewish nationalists haven't yet figured out that that any form of lobbying for Israel and Zionism in the Diaspora, no matter how low-key and diplomatic, is a losing proposition -- one guaranteed to create friction and conflict between Jews and non-Jews over the long run. Certainly most citizens of modern Western democratic nations are not mired down in the politics of cultural warfare... more... - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Zionism isn't a deviation from Judaism -- it's the natural and organic expression of the core beliefs and values of Judaism.
And who is the leading authority on this subject? -- the worldwide Jewish religious establishment -- the most respected Jewish spokespersons for the most influential institutions in Judaism -- member organizations of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. - Sean McBride
The ACJ (American Council for Judaism) and JVP (Jewish Voice for Peace) carry no weight on these matters -- they occupy the fringe of Jewish institutional life. - Sean McBride
Progressive anti-Zionists who are obstructing a discussion about the role of Judaism in Zionism are spinning their wheels and going nowhere -- in the same way that liberal Zionists who have obstructed effective opposition to Israel's settlements program are spinning their wheels and going nowhere. Progressive anti-Zionists and liberal Zionists -- two peas in a pod. Both groups are more enablers of Likud Zionism and Greater Israelism than effective opponents. - Sean McBride
# In the merger and fusion of Judaism and Zionism, these are some of the key concepts and terms that keep coming up in the language of pro-Israel activists: 1. Amalek 2. blood libel 3. Eretz Yisrael 4. G-d 5. Haman 6. Hashem 7. Judea and Samaria 8. the chosen people 9. the enemies of the Jews 10. the Jewish people 11. the Land of Israel 12. the nations 13. the promised land 14. the Third Temple - Sean McBride
There is an endless and ever-increasing torrent of this language in the articles and comments of leading Israeli and Jewish publications. The main ideological themes are not difficult to pick out. - Sean McBride
Disagree to a degree. Zionism has subsumed Judaism, but it is not the natural and organic expression. Even cellular biology depends on variables. Zionism is the opportunistic admixture of myth and technological narcissism. It is a kind of remorseless self-promotion at the expense of murder. A form of psychopathy but not madness for its proponents are aware and responsible for their actions. In liberal Zionist terms shoot and cry and shoot again. - peacefly
peacefly -- I find it difficult to believe that Zionism hijacked Judaism for two main reasons: 1. the foundational documents of Judaism are even more violent, racist and xenophobic than the foundational documents of Zionism. 2. the worldwide Jewish establishment and the leaders of Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism have passionately embraced and promoted Zionism in the name of Judaism. Zionism is the latest ideological iteration of Judaism. - Sean McBride
One definition of Judaism: the aggressive pursuit of personal and group self-interest, in competition with other groups, by means of mystical ethnic collectivism and in the name of God. - Sean McBride
# the face that Zionism has put on Judaism 1. aggressive 2. belligerent 3. chauvinistic 4. confrontational 5. ethnocentric 6. segregationist 7. self-obsessed 8. selfish 9. violent - Sean McBride
Sean - no doubt the chosen people, tribal thing has its roots in Judaism but so does "thou shalt not kill". In this sense Judaism is understood as multiple, contradicting narratives. For e.g. Even one G_d is not the universal. However, that does not naturally lead to Zionism which is in fact a single narrative of chauvinism minus any redemption, no matter how flawed the redemption... more... - peacefly
Jews in the Old Testament appear to be fully dependent on their God, no matter the invented masochism e.g Joshua's genocide etc. Zionism, on the other hand, has the central belief in making the desert bloom etc. or making own destiny. - peacefly
However, you are right on one grand point: the power and philosophy of tribalism, it's textual roots, as the working horse of Zionism. Jesus was a critic of this and emphasised faith through actions not tribe or power. - peacefly
We may have to live with our somewhat different views on this. Zionism (violent and xenophobic ethnic nationalism) is by far the predominant theme in ancient Judaism -- and the contemporary Jewish religious establishment has overwhelmingly and passionately embraced Zionism. The rare exceptions to these beliefs and policies don't define the essential character of the ideology -- they are outliers. - Sean McBride
One begins to wonder -- is Jewish universalism as much an oxymoron as liberal Zionism? Apparently Spinoza thought so. Gilad Atzmon seems to think so. How often do we see the terms Irish universalism or Russian universalism or Chinese universalism? They are contradictions in terms. - Sean McBride
# set; Old Testament: * passages 1. anti-intermarriage 2. capital punishment 3. ethnocentric 4. genocidal 5. intolerant 6. militaristic 7. nationalist 8. pro-slavery 9. racist 10. stoning 11. violent 12. world domination 13. xenophobic 14. Zionist - Sean McBride
No doubt Judaism isn't a universal religion nor does it promote universalism so so-called Jewish universalism is undoubtedly imbued with a Christian sense. However, tribalism only becomes a problem when it is dangerously threatening and influentially powering a nuclear-armed state and fomenting civil war between and inside its neighbours eg Iraq and Syria or holding a country hostage eg... more... - peacefly
Zionism=Judaism=Jewish ethnic self-interest. It would be like saying that Italian nationalism=Roman Catholicism=Italian ethnic self-interest or that English nationalism=Protestantism=English ethnic self-interest. But of course most Christians do not define themselves in ethnic nationalist terms. - Sean McBride
Judaism is a religion that has organized itself around a single nation and a singular insular tribe situated on a single piece of territory. There is nothing universalist about it unless you believe that trying to impose the authority and rule of a local tribal God -- one with appalling personality traits -- over the entire human race is universalist. - Sean McBride
There are too many Judaisms for me to know much about. ..all I know I got from MW and searching for answers to a few questions I was curious about. All I can say about it is when you peel back all the layers in the various groups, marc ellis types and etc. others, what you get is Judaism is exceptional, therefore Jewishness is exceptional....maybe that is standard for religions. However... more... - American
It's always the fault of "the nations." - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
What Will Israel Become? - NYTimes.com (Roger Cohen) - http://www.nytimes.com/2014...
What Will Israel Become? - NYTimes.com (Roger Cohen)
"“There is a growing uneasiness, social, political, economic,” Amos Oz, the novelist, told me in an interview. “There is a growing sense that Israel is becoming an isolated ghetto, which is exactly what the founding fathers and mothers hoped to leave behind them forever when they created the state of Israel.” The author, widely viewed as the conscience of a liberal and anti-Messianic Israel, continued, “Unless there are two states — Israel next door to Palestine — and soon, there will be one state. If there will be one state, it will be an Arab state. The other option is an Israeli dictatorship, probably a religious nationalist dictatorship, suppressing the Palestinians and suppressing its Jewish opponents.”" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Tolerance is under attack as a wave of Israeli nationalism unfurls and settlements grow in the West Bank. This virulent, Jews-first thinking led recently to a bill known as the nationality law that would rescind Arabic’s status as an official language — and proved a catalyst to the breakup of Netanyahu’s government. It also finds expression in the abuse hurled at anyone, including the Israeli president, Reuven Rivlin, who speaks up for Arab rights. “Traitor” has become a facile cry." - Sean McBride
"Danny Danon, a former deputy defense minister who is challenging Netanyahu for the Likud leadership, told me his long-term vision for the West Bank, or Judea and Samaria as he calls it, “is to have sovereignty over the majority of the land with the minimum amount of Palestinians.” The two-state idea, Danon said, “is finished, and most Israelis understand that.”" - Sean McBride
Comment regarding Danny Danon: "If this were said by a non-Jewish minister of a non-Jewish state, most American Jews wouldn't hesitate to call this fascism; the sentiment is worthy of the French National Front or of the British National Party. But because it was said by a Jewish minister of a majority Jewish state, many American Jews can't bring themselves to identify this for what it is, i.e. a virulent form of racism as the underpinning for land theft. The more shame on them." - Sean McBride
Most of the New York Times comments would fit in seamlessly with Mondoweiss comments. - Sean McBride
'' “There is a growing sense that Israel is becoming an isolated ghetto, which is exactly what the founding fathers and mothers hoped to leave behind them forever when they created the state of Israel.”").....His statement does not even make sense. Obviously they did Not intend to leave the 'ghetto' behind. Creating a state of,by and for Jews only Was creating a Jewish ghetto. Neither... more... - American
American, the ghetto has been a complicated situation. There are indeed many places where the jews were quite content to leave in their own "enclave" and this was greatly supported, encouraged and mandated by their rabbis - so that they may remain separate. Because they were already in ghetto-like situation, it was easy for the ruling authorities at various times and places to keep them... more... - Danaa
Judaism and Zionism have always been self-ghettoizing ideologies, movements and cultures based on separating "Israel" ("the chosen people") from "the nations" (cult outsiders). A complex array of traditions and rituals was constructed to help maintain that separation. - Sean McBride
regarding your other point - the jewish leadership not really wanting to stray from the ghetto model - I think that also requires some acknowlegement of the variance between intent and reality. Those leaders (the ben Gurions etc) really did not want the old shtetl model to prevail in israel, as they set out for an "enlightened" state, at least what they considered so, a state like any... more... - Danaa
The idea I am trying to promulgate here is that it is not really possible to be "enlightened" and separate at the same time. There was, at its root, a universalist component to enlightenemnt which was never going to sit well with parochialism. There are numerous examples of the dichotomy and how it played out in different countries. The very concept of "separate bu equal" - a Jim Crow... more... - Danaa
The clear choice: reject Enlightenment culture and modern Western democratic norms. Actually, I am not surprised. So now the game will play out along inevitable lines. - Sean McBride
What is perfectly predictable: Likud Zionists will work tirelessly to inflame and normalize racism in the United States and Europe in order to justify racism in Israel. They will form alliances (many of them under table) with white nationalists in the West. - Sean McBride
'' The idea I am trying to promulgate here is that it is not really possible to be "enlightened" and separate at the same time. ..Danaa).....Of course it isnt. "Separation" from others was the goal and cornerstone of Zionism. Only in nonsensical Jewish pilpul can they pretend, redefine definitions of democracy, ect. and convolute what Israel was 'intended to be'. it is what is was from... more... - American
Sean McBride
Rethinking Taxi's Friendfeed problems
I think Taxi may have confused accounts with groups. When she deleted her Friendfeed account she also automatically deleted all the groups that were created by and associated with that account. With regard to creating new accounts: it works perfectly. I just experimentally created and deleted three new accounts without a hitch. - Sean McBride
Once again, I will be happy to help her out in getting reestablished on Friendfeed -- she just needs to contact me in email: seanmcb@gmail.com. - Sean McBride
Why am I still able to access Taximondo Feed and post on it if she deleted all her feeds and accounts? Is is because I was a subscriber ? I would have thought that would have been wiped out also, even for subscribers. - American
Because (I am guessing) https://friendfeed.com/taximon... is an independent and standalone account -- not a group created from and associated with another independent and standalone account that she deleted. (The existence of that account means that she has always been able to communicate with other FF users all along. Has she responded to your posts in that feed?) - Sean McBride
Nope no response. I think I will delete my post and comments there, no point in leaving them up. - American
Have you asked her through another channel why she isn't responding to communications in her own feed? If you have access to it, she does. - Sean McBride
What I got from her is that she can see posts on this FF but not on Taximondo. But she can't post a response. Note that the taximondo feed has just three subscribers - American is one and I'm another. The admin subscription is not there any longer which is probably why she can't post or even see comments on that feed (that because it was private, unlike this one). - Danaa
According to her communication with me, she is busy setting up a blog and for now is taking a break from the FF patform. I actually don't blame her. It was a bit of a jolt. I also lost my own comments on her feed as well as any on a thread started here by her. I am still smarting from that and wish there was a way to resurrect those. She is sending her apologies to those whose comments... more... - Danaa
If the feed is still up, and you and American can see and post to it, that means that she unsubscribed herself from her own group -- strange. I've never seen that before. - Sean McBride
It does not make sense that she deleted her 'account' and wiped out her two other feeds and herself and all her comments and left the Taximondo one intact. If she did indeed wipe herself 'totally out' of FF the Taximondo feed should have been wiped out also. Maybe Sean can explain. - American
My guess is that if you create a group with yourself as sole administrator, and then unsubscribe yourself from the group, the group just sits there under the control of no one. Existing members can still post to it. I am completely baffled by Taxi's actions. - Sean McBride
Bottom line: without knowledge of the exact URLs she was working with (for all acounts and groups), I don't really know for sure what happened or how she became so tangled up. This situation is a first. - Sean McBride
Well I deleted my post there and unsubscribed to get it off my list. - American
Sean McBride
Comment to Annie Robbins on the American Council for Judaism (ACJ) and Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP)
Once again, Annie directed a critique at me, in her usual rambling and disorganized way, here: http://mondoweiss.net/2014... She sought out and initiated the exchange, not me -- which is how this always goes. I composed a civil and substantive reply -- which is still sitting in moderation -- which means that her post has still gone unanswered. This is no way for a moderator to run a forum. This is the way dictators and despots conduct debates -- muzzle your opponent while you deliver speeches. - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Annie, - Sean McBride
When we begin to see organizations like the American Council for Judaism (ACJ) and Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) start to move the political needle in a significant way -- especially to exert a significant impact on the US Congress -- then we will all stand up, take note and applaud. But the ACJ has been around since the 1950s, and during the last half century its impact on American Mideast policy has been negligible -- non-existent really. - Sean McBride
I recently turned up this fascinating article in JTA from **May 7, 1956**: - Sean McBride
"1,350 U.S. Rabbis Denounce the American Council for Judaism" | Jewish Telegraphic Agency http://www.jta.org/1956... - Sean McBride
BEGIN QUOTE - Sean McBride
Some 1,350 American rabbis of all three branches of the Jewish faith–Orthodox, Conservative and Reform-this week-end scored the American Council for Judaism in one of the sharpest denunciations of the Council voiced. The statement was released by the New York Board of Rabbis, which circularized 1,500 rabbis in all parts of the country with the document. - Sean McBride
The joint declaration hit the American Council for Judaism, asserting that it has “consistently misrepresented the Jewish people before the bar of public opinion” and “has consistently maligned and impugned the integrity of Jewish institutions, organizations and causes, and has consistently distorted the precepts of Judaism which it purports to serve. The joint declaration reprimanded the anti-Zionist organization for what it termed “slanders” against American Jews “who adhere to the ideals of Zionism.” - Sean McBride
Asserting that the Council’s “real goal is the complete disappearance of the Jewish people,” the declaration stressed that the Council represents numerically “an infinitesimal fraction” of American Jewry. “we view with contempt the Council’s attempt to dissuade Americans from helping their fellow Jews and the State of Israel through contributions to the United Jewish Appeal and the... more... - Sean McBride
END QUOTE - Sean McBride
Notice that the Jewish religious establishment -- Orthodox, Conservative and Reform -- was overwhelmingly lined up against the ACJ back in 1956 -- and even then was conflating Judaism with Zionism. Since then this situation hasn't improved -- it has only become worse. - Sean McBride
One needs to be a realist about these matters, even while holding on strongly to idealistic beliefs and objectives. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
There is no good reason not to clear this comment. I think the problem is that Annie can't figure out how to answer the points and handle the discussion. - Sean McBride
New comment: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
The ACJ (American Council for Judaism) was challenging the Jewish/Zionist establishment back in 1956: - Sean McBride
"1,350 U.S. Rabbis Denounce the American Council for Judaism" | Jewish Telegraphic Agency http://www.jta.org/1956... - Sean McBride
So why is that establishment much stronger now in 2014 than it was in 1956? - Sean McBride
One might come to the reasonable conclusion, based on solid facts, that the Jewish community as a whole is constitutionally incapable of reforming the Jewish establishment on the issues of Israel and Zionism -- that is what the long historical track record reveals. Lots of idealistic talk and promises, no effective action. The game goes on and on with no change. Fool me once, shame on... more... - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
I actually agree with you Sean, on the substance. Unlike phil, who continues to hope against hope, I actually don't believe the American jewish community - as a community - has it in them to change. Some young people push the debate forward, some other young people become activists, a few good people raise their voices and call it like it is (Stieglitz comes to mind). And yet, this... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- a big idea has been taking shape in my mind and perhaps you can critique it. It was triggered by that JTA article I cited earlier: [1,350 U.S. Rabbis Denounce the American Council for Judaism http://www.jta.org/1956...] - Sean McBride
The idea in a nutshell: there has been a stream of Jewish anti-Zionism in Jewish culture for more than a century now, but the influence of Jewish anti-Zionists never rises above a certain level of minimal influence. Phil Weiss is the latest proponent of this stream of thought -- and his impact on the Jewish establishment will probably be no greater than the Jewish anti-Zionists who preceded him. The overwhelming majority of Jews has consistently rejected and punished anti-Zionists in their midst. - Sean McBride
For instance, long before Phil Weiss there was Alfred Lilienthal: 1. [Wikipedia; Alfred Lilienthal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...] 2. [Amazon.com; Alfred M. Lilienthal http://www.amazon.com/Alfred-...] - Sean McBride
And there is an analogy here regarding Enlightenment and universalist Jews in general, beginning with Spinoza -- they have consistently been rejected and punished by the overall Jewish community. Why should we believe that this situation is ever going to change? - Sean McBride
I think Gilad Atzmon took a good look at this overall pattern of behavior over centuries and decided to ditch the tradition altogether. - Sean McBride
If my analysis is correct, then one can predict with considerable confidence that the Jewish establishment (and the Jewish community as a whole) will find itself once again in a state of severe (even apocalyptic) conflict with "the nations" -- with non-Jewish groups -- a situation that has erupted repeatedly since the founding of Judaism. Conflict with "the nations" is the most salient... more... - Sean McBride
JVP members (including Annie Robbins) keep dangling before us the hope that Jewish anti-Zionists are going to succeed in reforming the Jewish establishment, Judaism, Israel and Zionism, but there is little reason to believe that this is actually going to happen. The truth is that Jewish anti-Zionists have continued to lose ground since the 1950s. - Sean McBride
What do you think? - Sean McBride
"" I actually don't believe the American jewish community - as a community - has it in them to change...Danaa).......Leaving out my disgust with Zionism completely and just looking at the Jewish Community objectively as an outside observer I don't think there is going to be any change either. In every instance I have seen in history when Jews were confronted with a choice of 'cleaving... more... - American
Also the truth is most Americans rarely think of Israel, its not on their radar or something they care about one way or another. So I doubt there will be great uprising there either unless Israel causes some horrific event that blows back on the US and puts Israel on their radar. - American
The way some kind of change might come about is a war between the 20%s. The 20% who want Isr out of Palestine and out of the US v. the 20% of US zionist and The I-Lobby Orgs. - American
American
Did a review of Blumenathals 'Goliath'. Good. Rile up the Catholics against Israel. - American
Sean McBride
Report: FBI's Anthrax Investigation Was Flawed - ABC News - http://abcnews.go.com/US...
"Flawed" doesn't begin to cover it -- it was utter nonsense -- and obviously part of a deliberate coverup. What, precisely, has been covered up? - Sean McBride
The Jewish Col. who had worked at the lab and was let go or left who was seen entering the lab and being let into it after hours at night by his girlfriend who still worked there was the most obvious suspect. But the obvious was ignored. You would think the FBI would have asked why that Col. and his friends, who had harassed the Arab doctor at the lab, had sent a letter to the FBI accusing him of being the anthrax guy - American
Everything obvious about the case was deliberately buried. - Sean McBride
Philip Zack. - Sean McBride
Some pointers into the controversy: - Sean McBride
# Google; 9/11 anthrax * 1. "allah is great" 2. "death to america" 3. "death to israel" 4. advance warning 5. ayaad assaad 6. barbara hatch rosenberg 7. barbara hatch rosenberg jdo 8. bentonite 9. bruce ivins 10. bruce ivins fbi 11. bruce ivins meryl nass 12. bruce ivins paul kemp 13. bruce ivins wife 14. camel club 15. cipro 16. cipro richard cohen 17. cipro white house 18. dick cheney... more... - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Likely US presidential candidate: Egyptian option should be examined to solve Israeli-Arab conflict - Arab-Israeli Conflict - Jerusalem Post - http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Is...
Likely US presidential candidate: Egyptian option should be examined to solve Israeli-Arab conflict - Arab-Israeli Conflict - Jerusalem Post
"Ben Carson, on his first visit here, tells ‘Post’ he is not sure that a Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria ‘makes sense,’ and that Israeli settlement construction is ‘blown out of proportion.’" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
Carson's use of the expression "Judea and Samaria" reveals that his mind has already been invaded and taken over by Likud Zionism and Greater Israelism -- as has the Republican Party in general. - Sean McBride
"Asked what would change in the US -Israel relations if he did ever come to power, he replied that he “would want it to be very clear that people who are allies are allies. They are our friends, they are not people who should ever be questioning our relationship and our loyalty.”" - Sean McBride
The notion that the United States should ever declare its "loyalty" to *any* foreign government would cause the American Founders to turn over in their graves. The concept is absurd -- nations have ever-shifting interests -- not "loyalties" to other nations. This is America on Zionism. - Sean McBride
My bet is that Ben Carson will be a strong candidate in 2016. - Sean McBride
I don't think so. I think he will be seen as a black man trying to ride the coat tails of our first black President. The racist wing of the GOP isnt going to go for him and the fringe fanatic wing of the Dems are likely going to line up behind Hillary. The 45% of registered voters that are independents could go any which way but I doubt it would be for this guy. My prediction is we wont have another black president for a while. - American
I have a slim ray of hope that Jim Webb will run...very slim. - American
I don't think he will win the presidency or candidacy -- but he may perform well in the primaries -- be a disruptive force in the GOP. - Sean McBride
Jim Webb would be my candidate. - Sean McBride
Yep, we desperately need a common sense America Firster. - American
And that's the problem: any candidate who puts American interests and values first is going to be savaged by the Israel lobby. Loyalty to Israel and Zionism trumps all other issues in contemporary American politics. Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban are the ruling billionaire monarchs behind the scenes. - Sean McBride
American
The CIA official who is the subject of the NBC article - protected by the torture report - has a Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
Good catch. - Sean McBride
"Despite the CIA's insistence on the professionalism of its interrogation program, according to two well-informed Agency sources, one particularly overzealous female officer had to be reprimanded for her role. After Mohammed was captured, the woman, who headed the Al Qaeda unit in the CTC, was so excited she flew at government expense to the black site where Mohammed was held so that... more... - Sean McBride
"In January 2004, Bikowsky, as head of the Bin Laden Issue Station, made the decision to extraordinarily render Khalid El-Masri to Afghanistan for five months without any evidence in hand. El-Masri's name was a different transliteration of Khalid al-Masri, the name of a person who had supposedly met Ramzi bin al-Shibh and Marwan al-Shehhi on a train in Germany. Even after El-Masri's... more... - Sean McBride
What an incredible blot on the CIA. - Sean McBride
"certain CIA officials blocked information on future 9/11 hijackers from reaching the FBI" - Sean McBride
And why did they block that information? - Sean McBride
[Google; alfreda bikowsky http://www.google.com/#q=alfr...] - Sean McBride
One is reminded that all the many important unanswered questions about 9/11 loom larger than ever. - Sean McBride
"Alfreda Frances Bikowsky is a CIA analyst who is partially responsible for intelligence lapses that led to 9/11." https://www.emptywheel.net/2012... - Sean McBride
"Former counter-terrorism “Czar” Richard Clarke has let the cat out of the bag. The CIA top leadership all knew that Al Qaeda hijackers were living in the US, and for 16 months, they let them. Even one week before 9/11 this info was kept hidden from high-level people like Richard Clarke and the head of FBI." https://politicalfilm.wordpress.com/tag... - Sean McBride
"A growing number of former government insiders — all responsible officials who served in a number of federal posts — are now on record as doubting ex-CIA director George Tenet’s account of events leading up to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States. Among them are several special agents of the FBI, the former counterterrorism head in the Clinton and Bush administrations, and... more... - Sean McBride
What is this woman's personal background? I cant find a thing on it---its well hidden for some reason. Birth? school? ,married? religion?....what produced her? - American
I've been searching -- without success. It's probably safe to say that she is a neocon. One is curious to know what type of neocon in particular. - Sean McBride
Bikowsky is a very common jewish name....I wonder if she had in for arabs and liked to see them tortured. - American
I wouldn't speculate without hard facts. - Sean McBride
I dont think we are going to get any hard facts.....now that she's been outed she probably has to have bodyguards. - American
More on Bikowsky------- "NBC News is withholding her name at the request of the CIA, which cited a climate of fear" ------- http://www.nbcnews.com/news... -----But one former intelligence officer who worked directly with her at the time said the expert bears direct responsibility for the... more... - American
This is one of the biggest stories in American politics for the last decade or two -- and the mainstream media are covering it up. - Sean McBride
Google turned up the fact that Bikowsky is often a Jewish surname -- but there are surely numerous exceptions. What would be interesting to know is the complete history of her political statements and affiliations. Americans have a right to know. - Sean McBride
My theory on 911 has always been that it wasn't a big' Bush Adm" plot as some want to think. . What is was was a 'let it happen" plot---and the people involved in the "let it happen' were certain people in strategic positions like Bikowsky who could 'withhold' vital info and shut down other agents who were pursuing leads on suspicious people entering the US. There were numerous FBI... more... - American
Your theory is highly plausible -- it would be easy to build a powerful case supporting it, based on the available evidence. - Sean McBride
If you want a bridge to collapse all you have to do is remove or weaken a few structural supports and wait for the time when there is a heavy enough traffic on it to collapse it. - American
The agonizing creaking and squealing sounds from the 9/11 official story keep getting louder, even though the mainstream media are doing their best to look the other way. At some point the entire edifice is going to collapse. On the Internet, the official story has already been exhaustively torn apart. Eventually the mainstream media will be forced to catch up. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Obama: I’m Jewish ‘in my soul’ | David Suissa | Jewish Journal - http://www.jewishjournal.com/david_s...
Obama: I’m Jewish ‘in my soul’ | David Suissa | Jewish Journal
You *must* check out the comments -- overwhelmingly vicious. - Sean McBride
Wow. Obama has a soul? - peacefly
Yes comments are vicious. Obama is a liberal Zionist star after all. - peacefly
Still having computer problem, comments wont load....what do they say? - American
Does Obama have Christian celebration at the WH also,,,or didnt they give him enough money? - American
Does he have one for Catholics and Muslims?...or didnt they give him enough money either? - American
Obama=Amalek. That's the main drift of the comments, many of which carry the distinct whiff of racism. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Apparently Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine are now banned on Mondoweiss
The following two comments were cleared on Mondoweiss earlier today in this thread -- http://mondoweiss.net/2014... -- and now they seem to have been deleted after appearing on the site for a few hours: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Mooser, - Sean McBride
Most (or all) pre-Enlightenment cultures (including Old Testament culture) practiced or endorsed slavery -- but Enlightenment culture was especially well-equipped to reform European culture on this issue and many other issues. The Bible, of course, is rich with pro-slavery passages. - Sean McBride
What distinguishes the Enlightenment is its emphasis on reason, science and individualism -- and its hostility to superstition and the rule of self-appointed priesthoods based on those superstitions. - Sean McBride
Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason): - Sean McBride
"It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man." - Sean McBride
and: - Sean McBride
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. - Sean McBride
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Mooser, - Sean McBride
Thomas Jefferson on the Bible: - Sean McBride
"There are, I acknowledge, passages not free from objection, which we may, with probability, ascribe to Jesus himself; but claiming indulgence from the circumstances under which he acted. His object was the reformation of some articles in the religion of the Jews, as taught by Moses. That sect had presented for the object of their worship, a being of terrific character, cruel,... more... - Sean McBride
You've expressed your hostility and contempt towards the Enlightenment tradition. With which cultural tradition do you most strongly identify? Who are the thought leaders of that tradition? - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Has it come to this -- do progressive anti-Zionists now find the writings of Enlightenment leaders and American Founding Visionaries too hot to handle -- material that must be censored? One wonders who applied pressure on Mondoweiss to remove the posts that it had cleared. - Sean McBride
Also, once again, someone at Mondoweiss is trying to protect Mooser from dealing with the give and take of fair and open debate. - Sean McBride
What could be more hostile to the Enlightenment spirit (and more *ironic*) than censoring discussion about the actual beliefs and writings of Enlightenment thought leaders? And on a progressive and supposedly free-thinking site? Really -- it's amazing -- 1984 Orwellian -- perhaps we should scrub the Internet of the writings of Jefferson, Paine, Voltaire, Diderot, etc. - Sean McBride
Btw, the mainstream media remarks of Bill Maher, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins on religion are very much in this stream of the Enlightenment tradition. With regard to many problematic (and appalling) attitudes in the Old Testament, mainstream Judaism itself has openly wrestled with these difficulties -- that is why Judaism has produced numerous reform movements (not just Reform Judaism) since the Enlightenment. - Sean McBride
When "progressive anti-Zionists" try to censor discussion about the central role of Judaism in Zionism, they are running interfence for and empowering Jewish religious Zionists and Christian Zionists. In other words, they are essentially in the same camp as "liberal Zionists" in terms of their bizarre self-contradictions and hypocrisy -- and they look quite ridiculous. The game here:... more... - Sean McBride
What has created some confusion about Mondoweiss is that Phil is clearly very smart about these issues -- he has addressed them directly several times in his lead articles with insight and nuance -- but apparently there are a few people hovering around him who are not nearly as developed in their thinking as he is. They come to "the war of ideas" unarmed -- and still in the grip of narrow tribalism -- curled up in the fetal position. - Sean McBride
Well with the Jefferson quote you just blew the Jews favorite claim that they and the Jewish Exodus and the OT was actually responsible for the founding of America.....lol. What is the Jewish equivalent of Catholic Holy Water?....they're probably running to get whatever it is to throw on you next time you show up. - American
Apparently Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine -- the two most influential minds among the brilliant American Founders -- failed to get the AIPAC handout. :) - Sean McBride
The notion of censoring Jefferson and Paine on an allegedly bold and free-thinking voice for progressive values boggles the mind. Actually, when you think about it, the neocons have already done everything in their power to destroy and erase the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. There is a pattern here. - Sean McBride
I just reposted the Jefferson post to make sure its disappearance wasn't an accident or glitch -- wiped again. Someone at Mondoweiss is very upset about the views of Thomas Jefferson on religion and is determined to bury them -- really -- the situation is laughable -- pitiable. Or scary -- it has a "Soviet" feel to it. - Sean McBride
Jefferson like Moses and Jesus was just a man. His caricature of both Jewish and Christian figureheads is more suited to literary than realist descriptions. Jesus was not a hippie of any sorts. And Jefferson was very much outside the norms of his society. The Enlightenment was not a European group project; it was diverse intellects, even eccentrics seizing the day. The civic structure was already in place for it to take place. - peacefly
Diverse intellects, but with a distinct center of gravity. They created the modern world. - Sean McBride
Bill Maher, Sam Harris and Dawkins would all be levelled by Jefferson, Blake and Kant. The former are morons. - peacefly
I agree -- they are not nearly in the same class -- certainly not geniuses. - Sean McBride
Christopher Hitchens should be added to that list, with Maher, Harris and Dawkins. - Sean McBride
At least two of the three are ethnocentric Zionists. Hitchens was a disgrace, fomenter of war and chaos in the name of civilization. How is he diff from Al-Zawahiri? The Enlightenment I'd like to think curtailed such zealous bloodthirsty habits as expressed by Hitchens and Harris. - peacefly
Also when I said "morons" it had little to do with the false concept of iq and everything to do with morality. - peacefly
At least three are ethnocentric Zionists -- and their understanding of Enlightenment values is highly warped. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Mooser asked: what can be done to uncouple Judaism from Zionism?
One thing that can be done: encourage Jewish religious leaders in *public conversations* to begin drawing clear lines between Judaism and Zionism -- to explain to the world where they differ. But have we reached a point in which those leaders no longer believe that there any differences between Judaism and Zionism? Game over? - Sean McBride
Censoring the debate over this issue is probably not going to solve the problem. - Sean McBride
Btw, Mooser just posted a surprising batch of smart comments in which he reveals that he *does* understand -- fully -- the problematic relations between Judaism and Zionism. One wonders why he spent so much effort pretending that he didn't understand. - Sean McBride
In reply to your puzzlement - Mooser understands quite a bit. He just didn't like you personally because of your over-aggressive and condescending on-line persona in debates. I told you before like three dozen times that Mooser has the zionism/Judaism angle figured out just fine. It's just that you haven't been reading his posts to others with the attention they deserved, even as you... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- I couldn't begin to match Mooser for aggression, bullying, insults, arrogance, etc. -- that's his specialty. But for some reason you are willing to overlook that behavior. And you continue to get it backwards -- Mooser pursued me -- I didn't pursue him. When the critique of Jewish religious Zionism first emerged on MW, Mooser lost his wit and humor and went all Terminator --grim as death. The archives tell the tale. - Sean McBride
Danaa, sorry but Mooser is a asshole imo. And his witty little attacks on people have gotten old and arent amusing any more. He literally 'stalks' people he doesn't like with his' interpretations' on what they've said. So it doesnt matter what he understands, its his mouth and attitude that makes him an asshole. He's had his three strikes with me and I never respond to him and ignore... more... - American
American, understand you don't care for Mooser and neither does Sean. All I'm saying is to just avoid engaging with him, that's all. Some on-line personas rub people the wrong way and frankly, it would be surprising if they didn't as that's what happens in 'real" life too. There are lots of people i don't care to engage with. So what else is new? All I was saying is that sean and Mooser... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- I tried to avoid exchanges with Mooser, but he kept coming at me -- and he is still doing so now -- as of today -- he just called me a "right-wing mouth-breather" on MW. I never called him "stupid" -- I pointed out that he rarely posts interesting documentary material in his posts, with cites -- as do most of the best commenters on MW. I most prize *knowledge-based* commenters like Hostage, whose posts are sorely missed. - Sean McBride
Danaa, let me say again that "I dont engage with Mooser'' or even respond to him-- BUT that does not prevent his addressing and stalking my comments. So in my case the problem is in him. I scanned MW articles and 100 comments this am for any developments and noticed his comment on my comment that the Judaism is or isnt Zionism debate is best left to the Jews to settle . This was his... more... - American
American -- since Danaa hasn't been the target of obsessive stalking by Mooser, as we have been, she may not have noticed what is going on. And we are not the only targets who have been subjected to this abusive treatment -- other users have complained about it. - Sean McBride
My personal policy is to avoid all feuds with other commenters -- they are a waste of time -- that is why I stopped engaging with hophmi. The only reason I keep engaging with Annie is because time and again she has interfered in my conversations with other MW users in a highly aggressive way. I have definitely had the feeling of being stalked by her -- often by her in combination with Mooser -- they act as a tag team. - Sean McBride
American -- quickly scanning the most recent 100 comments on MW -- I see at least 15 by Mooser. Total comments posted by Mooser to date: nearly 20,000. http://mondoweiss.net/profile... A high percentage of them have insulted the intelligence of other MW commenters -- essentially dismissing them as morons. - Sean McBride
Just quit commenting. I think I've made 3 comments in 2 weeks on MW anyway. I really have nothing much to add to MW and I am not that into all the Jewish debates. I've started relying more on twitter with Max, Greenwald, Walt and others, to pick up on news blips. I noticed some important news about Hamas this am on Max's twitter, I'll post it above. - American
American -- that is a *smart* use of Twitter -- you are quickly skimming the cream of daily commentary on Israel and Mideast politics. Many of those Twitter links point to valuable long-form articles and essays -- one click and voila. The trick is to find the best feeds to follow. - Sean McBride
Regarding Mooser's style of argument -- most recently he has accused me of being a "right-wing mouth-breather," a supporter of slavery and someone who is "frightened of Jews." And Danaa thinks he's smart? :) Check out his attempts to discuss the Enlightenment tradition in this thread http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - Sean McBride
sean, danaa should be applauding you for finally getting that rat fink Mooser to engage in the key issues of the Jewish Question, when mooser asks, "what can be done to uncouple Judaism from Zionism?" - pepsi
unfortunately, danaa doesn't want to have that conversation either. She'd rather play pat-e-cake with her fellow Jews than to ask, "what can be done?" - pepsi
one minute danaa tells sean and american they should take mooser's supremacist bigotry personally, and the next she tells sean to back off, so her jewish circle-jerk party isn't threatened. Better a supremacist, bigoted, gatekeeping comments section than none at all, she insists, jewishly. - pepsi
I just scanned the 100 most recent comments on MW. It stinks. - American
Mooser has managed to anger Keith (along with quite a few other MW commenters). Check out this exchange: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
KEITH: Listen Jerk, that isn’t what I said and I resent you implying that it was. Perhaps you have more in common with Hophmi than either of you would care to admit. - Sean McBride
MOOSER: Look Keith, I can’t help my DNA! I was born with it, and so far, although it is possible (or so I have read) to get your foreskin replaced, I’m stuck with the Jewish DNA, not that I mind. And if Hophmi was ever short, and needed a DNA transfusion I would volunteer. We don’t agree on stuff, but I won’t see him wither and die for lack of Jewish DNA. http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Mooser used to be a popular figure on MW -- he's gone off the rails -- attacking all and sundry -- usually by maliciously mischaracterizing their words, which he doesn't seem to take the trouble to read and understand. It's a weird and uncomfortable social situation, to say the least. - Sean McBride
With regard to the ethnocentrism angle on this, the comment speaks for itself -- mocking and jesting on the surface, dead serious at the core. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Annie Robbins finally shows her hand on censoring discussion on the relations between Judaism and Zionism
Annie Robbins: - Sean McBride
"hi sean, i’m done moderating your comments in this thread because i’m not qualified to judge where attacking a religion (or claiming it’s insignificant and completely consumed by a political construct) crosses the line into attacking the worshipers of a that religion given my repulsion for your determination to insist judaism is completely consumed by zionism, or whatever it is you... more... - Sean McBride
She is trying to moderate a topic about which she is completely ignorant -- she can't put together two coherent ideas on it. - Sean McBride
We'll see if this clears: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
oldgeezer wrote: - Sean McBride
"It’s a bit silly to see adherents of Judaism as a monolithic block, and say their religion is the problem, just as it is silly to lump Protestants and Catholics together as one." - Sean McBride
No one here has said that all adherents of Judaism comprise a monolithic block that supports Zionism. The argument is that *all* of the leading organizations of the Jewish religious establishment strongly support Zionism (apparently, now, even including the American Council of Judaism) -- and that they have combined Judaism and Zionism into a single ideological package. It's a gigantic... more... - Sean McBride
These religious organizations and leaders merit as much reasonable criticism as Christian Zionist groups. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Not yet cleared: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
lysias, - Sean McBride
<blockquote> Two roads diverged in a wood… One descendant of ancient Judaism, Christianity, gave the Old Testament a universalist interpretation. The other major one, Rabbinic Judaism, gave it a tribal, exclusivist interpretation until the Enlightenment, when it too gave the Bible a universalist interpretation. Until Israel was founded and Zionism swamped universalizing Judaism. </blockquote> - Sean McBride
That is one of the best brief summaries I've seen of the history of Judaism yet. - Sean McBride
Judaism had a brief moment of universalism during its Enlightenment phase (which was inspired primarily by European, not Jewish thought leaders, like Voltaire, Diderot and Jefferson), and then, with the emergence of Zionism, quickly sank back into narrow ethnocentrism and tribalism -- which is where Judaism stands in the year 2014. Even the formerly anti-Zionist American Council of... more... - Sean McBride
The crisis of Zionism is really the crisis of Judaism and Jewish civilization in general. The ability of Zionists to communicate with the rest of the world is rapidly deteriorating because, in an Aspergery way, they have little respect or empathy for the concerns of outgroups -- for the human race at large -- for modern universalism. - Sean McBride
Quite a few progressives seem to be in denial about what is going on -- including progressive Jewish anti-Zionists. They really don't differ that much from liberal Zionists in their insistence on clinging on to sentimental beliefs that don't match up with reality. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Ah, it turns out that Annie deleted this comment outright -- she can't hold up her end of the debate, per usual -- so she relies on censorship to try to muddle through: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Annie, - Sean McBride
I pointed out to jon s that the racist, bigoted, violent, ethnocentric, nationalist and genocidal passages in the Torah/Old Testament greatly outnumber the vague, feel-good universalist passages, and that many contemporary religious AND secular Zionists use those hate-filled passages (certainly hate-filled by the standards of contemporary civilization) to rationalize and justify Israeli and Zionist policies. - Sean McBride
When you read texts, you need to study them *whole*, with all the parts in context and in proportion. I've read the Old Testament carefully from beginning to end at least five times, in combination with a great deal of critical analysis. I urge everyone here to read it all the way through at least *once* to understand why that work acquired such a bad reputation among Enlightenment and universalist thinkers -- they were appalled by it. - Sean McBride
Many people who haven't actually read the Old Testament, but who have only heard bits and snatches of it from popular culture, are shocked and horrified when they do. - Sean McBride
Christianity arose as a universalist and progressive revolt against the narrow tribalism and nationalism of the Judaism of that era. Compare the flavor and tone of the Old Testament and New Testament regarding tribalism and universalism. Reform Judaism, which was an Enlightenment product, emerged from a similar perspective on ancient Judaism -- like Christianity, it was created in the... more... - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
And Annie Robbins is now also deleting my replies to Mooser -- giving him an open field to engage in attacks without rebuttal: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Mooser, - Sean McBride
I told you clearly that I don't think there are any available solutions to the problem of Zionism in a historical era in which Zionism and Judaism have merged into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology and captured the minds and emotions of Jewish establishment leaders lock, stock and barrel, with little effective resistance or opposition from the Jewish community at large. - Sean McBride
All one can do is try to make reasonable predictions. What I foresee is an increasing collapse of relations between the Zionist world and the rest of the world -- there is nothing I can do about it. What do you propose? What do you foresee? - Sean McBride
As I mentioned before, I would expect a fair number of Jews to disaffiliate from the Zionist organizations (nearly *all* Jewish organizations) which are creating so much social and political friction with "the nations." Many of them just want to get along like the rest of us in modern Western democratic nations which care about universalist values. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
So much for the vigorous and informed "war of ideas" on Mondoweiss -- it's a rigged game. - Sean McBride
I just noticed that Annie has deleted yet another comment that had already been cleared: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
jon s, - Sean McBride
Don't the passages commanding ethnic cleansing or genocide outnumber the universalist passages to a considerable degree? - Sean McBride
For instance: - Sean McBride
Deuteronomy, chapter 7: <blockquote> When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy... more... - Sean McBride
Surely you must see the parallels here with the attitudes of quite a few Israeli settlers and religious Zionists? - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
It's fascinating that Bill Maher on mainstream TV (HBO) discusses (and roasts) the violent themes in the Bible on a regular basis -- but that conversation is too hot to handle for Mondoweiss. - Sean McBride
Been decades since I read the Old Testament and New Testament (in school theology classes) but my impression was God in Old Testament was a violent and punishing God whereas in the New Testament God was forgiving and merciful. The Old was jewish scriptures, the New was Jesus. The Old Testament was Jews as tribe and against the nations - and God in OT very vengeful and violent against enemies---- sounds lot like zionism. - American
I had to laugh at the guy who said the Exodus could be seen as a 'universal' theme of Judaism. Liberation and all that. LOL. - American
American -- of course, what you say is precisely true -- but even these simple concepts, which anyone with even a passing familiarity with the history of Judaism and Christianity understands, are going right over the head of Annie Robbins. If Phil Weiss and Adam Horowitz back up Annie's charge that discussing these issues is "antisemitic," I think it will be time to write off Mondoweiss as a lost cause. Perhaps Jerry Slater had it right about Robbins all along -- the basic complaint: not very bright. - Sean McBride
What did Slater say about her? - American
Slater had problems with the generally mediocre, sloppy and uninformed quality of her thinking and writing, as I recall. One wonders why Phil Weiss and Adam Horowitz permit her to represent Mondoweiss so prominently. Her posts are a mess -- and usually angry and overwrought. - Sean McBride
Everything you really need to know about Zionism can be found in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua -- it's all there -- the basic ultra-nationalist myths, memes and themes -- fleshed out by the other books in the Old Testament. I strongly doubt that Robbins has read a single book in the lot. - Sean McBride
A moderator should not let their 'personal opinions' and 'personalities' dictate what they moderate. - American
Robbins has corrupted and degraded the comments section. She is using it as her soapbox, exercising control and censorship to prop up her personal (and often uninformed) opinions. But the buck stops with Phil Weiss -- he has permitted this situation to go on and fester for quite a few months now. - Sean McBride
In the golden age of MW, no one got in the way of vigorous debates expressing a wide range of views -- moderators were careful not to interfere with the natural flow of conversation of commenters. They didn't try to impose their point of view on the comments section as a whole. She is rather a despot and tyrant by temperament -- she revels in wielding what little power MW affords her. - Sean McBride
I wrote this last Saturday in a private message: "Annie has gradually come to believe that Mondoweiss is her personal blog -- and she has become increasingly bossy, opinionated and erratic in her management of the comments section." - Sean McBride
I am totally not joining you Sean in this tirade against Annie. frankly, if not for her, there would probably be no comment section at all at MW. If you want to rail against Annie, you will lose me. vendettas by anyone against anything are not my cup of tea. We lost over time many comment sections. haaretz's Talkback was one of the best ever and it's gone. The Guardian CiF was excellent and it's now severly curtailed. If MW will go by the way of HuffPo et al, that's something we have all expected. - Danaa
No one, as in NO ONE awes any of us a platform fro carrying out our favorite discourses/debates etc. IF MW does not wish you to carry on, especially in light of the OBVIOUS disinclination of the site to be a vehicle for any one particular debate, then you may just have to accept this and move on. - Danaa
On this feed, you can exercise whatever editorial control you wish. You can block people, you can engage with them on any topic, or not. It6's your feed and your choice. But on MW you are one commenter out of many., and if they don't want to go on and on in one particular direction that's important to you, then that's their choice. You can complain to the editors, and you can complain... more... - Danaa
I will repeat again - without Annie there's no comment section, period. She does the lion share of moderating for virtually no compensation. They'll never find another one like her willing to work countless hours on a thankless task for nearly nothing. That's the reality. It seems to me, sean, that you would rather destroy what's left of the comment section than to have your special... more... - Danaa
One more thing - I took note of your second comment above, the one you said was deleted. At some future time of my choosing I will make a similar comment, just as I have in the past. I bet you it'll clear. I told you it's personal - it's you personally they don't want to engage with on this topic. may be the way you approach it is a bit pointed and ascerbic. may be you telegraph too... more... - Danaa
Several times you described Mooser here as "not very bright" also. It could be he took note of that and decided engaging with you is for the birds. Now you called Annie all but "stupid", even dusting off good old Slater to back your denigration (why, if Slater said it he must be right, eh? after all, we all admired Slater, didn't we?). Now I'm beginning to wonder about things. Lots of things. But one thing i won't wonder about is why Annie prefers to give you a pass. - Danaa
I can't help but wonder now - was it your purpose to derail the MW comment section altogether just because it did not live up to your expectations? if it'll be no more, will you feel vindicated? is that what you were after all along? - Danaa
I have settled the argument for everyone ----->American December 17, 2014, 12:45 am '' Judaism is Zionism- Zionism is Judaism Yes it is– No its not. Anyone can find 1000s of articles by Jews and Rabbis claiming it is and claiming it isn’t. And all of them on both sides quoting this and that from the Old Testament to prove it. So its crystal clear that Judaism is Zionism for some of them... more... - American
Cause that's the truth.lol - American
<<We lost over time many comment sections. haaretz's Talkback was one of the best ever and it's gone. The Guardian CiF was excellent and it's now severly curtailed. If MW will go by the way of HuffPo et al, that's something we have all expected.>> ~Danaa. ....... ;....... It's nice that MW restored the comment period's length.. Too bad they had the unwieldy redesign though. - WJones
Danaa -- the Mondoweiss comments section could easily survive the departure of Annie Robbins -- there are any number of people out there who are better educated than Annie, more literate, have more analytical minds and better editorial judgment, and who would be eager to lend a hand. Annie more than anyone else is responsible for the steep decline of the quality of MW comments -- she is... more... - Sean McBride
One begins to wonder: are there any significant differences between many Likud Zionists, liberal Zionists and progressive anti-Zionists? Many progressive anti-Zionists are no more able to deal honestly and objectively with the ideological roots of Zionism than Elliott Abrams, Michael Ledeen or Benjamin Netanyahu. It's all about emotionally circling the tribal wagon in all circumstances. - Sean McBride
To the main questions I addressed to Phil Weiss and Allan Brownfeld in the "Yes, Virginia" post, still no answers, no serious thinking of any kind. It's no wonder that progressive anti-Zionists have not made the slightest impact on affecting the power of the Israel lobby -- they are afraid to address the question of what sustains that power. In their gatekeeping function on this issue they are as much enablers of Zionism and the Israeli government as liberal Zionists (and even Likud Zionists). - Sean McBride
Danaa -- your instinctive inclination repeatedly has been to side with Mooser and Annie Robbins in their efforts to censor informed discussion about the role of Judaism and the Jewish religious establishment in empowering Zionism. It's difficult to reconcile this behavior with your many critiques of Judaism and support for Gilad Atzmon. I am still trying to understand the strange self-contradictions here. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- Annie has severely damaged the comments section by flooding it with her opinions (most of them written in mangled and confused prose), while at the same time moderating the section with a heavy hand to manipulate and rig discussions and debates in her favor. Really -- the situation is ridiculous. Phil sets high standards for MW in his lead articles. Annie has muddled and muddied the MW brand. I am surprised you can't see it. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- Phil in his lead articles has often shown a strong curiosity and open-mindedness about discussing the Judaism/Zionism issue in a bold and frank way. Instead of encouraging Annie Robbins and Mooser in their worst tendencies you should instead be encouraging Phil Weiss in his best tendencies. After all, it's his blog -- not Annie's or Mooser's. This is a conversation he has the... more... - Sean McBride
Annie is making a bit of progress: "anyway, i am rambling. i’m in the odd position of protecting judaism or islam or whatever. i’ve asked someone else to step in and make these decisions on this thread. it’s over my head." http://mondoweiss.net/2014... The operative words: "it's over my head." - Sean McBride
Sean, your personal vendetta is kind of getting a bit stale. It's all about you being "smarter" than others and has absolutely nothing to do with whatever issue you are into. If you were arguing about the fact that night follows day and insisting the people debate the issue with you, it would be the same. You came across as obssessive with an ax to grind. Given your over-aggressive tactics, I am not sure I would want you to be the one carrying on the argument. - Danaa
I honestly think the issue of Judaism vs zionism matters to you a hill of beans. Only being right matters to you. I hope you enjoy the thin airs of your eternal scintillating brilliance. keep calling everyone stupid and see how far that gets you on the popularity scale. I now see you are, in fact, much like pepsi in argumentation style - keep beating the same theme to death long after everyone else left to find greener pastures. perhaps the two of you are not so different after all. - Danaa
Danaa -- you've got this backwards -- Annie and Mooser have consistently been the aggressors in these exchanges -- and you have consistently defended them. Regarding the range of my interests concerning Mideast politics -- look at this feed -- it covers a wide variety of angles on the subject, not just the religious angle. In fact, I think the cyber angle is much more interesting than the religious angle -- but few people at MW are equipped to discuss it. - Sean McBride
The only side I am siding with is civility and knowing when you are hurting rather than helping your side of the argument. As I said before - IT IS NOT THE TOPIC BUT YOU PERSONALLY that people don't wish to debate or carry on with because your style is too obssessive compulsive. Just like our debates about Twitter - you never heard or acknowledged a thing I said about the pointlessness... more... - Danaa
There is no Judaism vs. Zionism issue now -- they are one and the same thing, according to the leading authorities on Judaism. Anyone involved in debates about Israel is now involved in controversies about Zionism and Judaism simultaneously whether they know it or not or like it or not. - Sean McBride
There you are again, describing people at MW as "not equipped" with this that or the other. most of us believe that if you think MW is not "up to your lofty standards" then perhaps another venue is what the doctor ordered. You should find people who share your standards to debate with. If they are not at MW I'm sure they are somewhere. May be you could start your own blog and call it... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- regarding Twitter and Big Data: I addressed your remarks in a substantive way and you never replied to my points. Sophisticated Internet users know how to mine Twitter and other social media to automatically extract high-quality editorial content with minimum effort. It's a powerful tool for those who know how to use it. It greatly reduces noise and increases signal -- it... more... - Sean McBride
I confess -- I like bright minds and bright people. That is what drew me to Glenn Greenwald's and Philip Weiss's blogs, and their early communities of commenters -- lots of fascinating and useful conversations there. I suspect you were drawn to those blogs for the same reasons. What has been disappointing is to see the gradual decline in the quality of conversation on MW. But this may be the fate of all great discussion forums -- they eventually lose steam and burn out. - Sean McBride
It's the simple truth: if the MW folks were "well-equipped" regarding cutting-edge information technologies, they wouldn't have permitted an outside company to degrade the quality of the Mondoweiss site. And generally I've noticed that Phil and Adam haven't taken much interest in the details of the Greenwald/Snowden revelations about the technologies being currently wielded by NSA,... more... - Sean McBride
That is why I posted this article today -- "National Cybersecurity Center of Excellence improving security in US, Israel" https://friendfeed.com/mondowe... -- which one of my data mining tools pushed to the top of the queue for me. - Sean McBride
What I like about Glenn Greenwald, among other things -- he's not a gearhead by nature, but he has worked hard to wrap his mind around important technical issues that are foundational for contemporary politics. Good for him -- that lad has grit. That is why his collaboration with Edward Snowden produced powerful revelations that shook the world. He dug in and learned about the technology. (One can imagine how much it hurt his head to master the personal cryptographic system that Snowden taught him. :)) - Sean McBride
Well I'll be damned....Mooser is still stalking and making unsolicited comments on my 'one' comment regarding letting Jews settle the Zionism -Judaism divide/question. And he's getting uglier and uglier. He even has to slam Presbyterians ------------->Mooser.December 17, 2014, 2:17 pm....''....And oh yeah, I forgot to mention, all kinds of different Protestants, so many I certainly... more... - American
I noticed -- rolled my eyes. - Sean McBride
There is a quality of out-of-control dementia in many of these posts -- the endless stream of drivel -- and of course the over-the-top narcissism -- the voices in his head are always clattering away -- the tone is usually mean and cutting. Psychological issues. Tics. - Sean McBride
In every case of my 3 run ins with Mooser his attack on me on the basis of my 'gentile' opinions and implying I am anti Semitic or stereotyping Jews.As I said before it is impossible for people like that to understand that people can regard Jews as differing 'individuals' and still recognize that they often act as a 'collective' force. I see nothing contradictory in holding those two... more... - American
The vibe he puts out when he goes into Terminator mode is that he has sniffed out Amalek. - Sean McBride
Sean "Sophisticated Internet users know how to mine Twitter and other social media to automatically extract high-quality editorial content with minimum effort. It's a powerful tool for those who know how to use it.". You say I don't get "it", and I'm telling you the "it" does not interest me. I have you to mine the news for me, and if it weren't you it'd be someone else. I am not a paid... more... - Danaa
OK, interlude over. Gotta go back to what's pressing..... - Danaa
Well I am just going to say one more thing about Mooser then i am done with him. The first run in I ever had with him was on a thread where people were discussing something about Jews, how they were kept down in ancient days, and someone said something about Jews being in the financial world, on WS, etc... I made the comment that more Jews going into banking, WS and etc instead of... more... - American
American, everything you said about the reasons Jewish people were in the money trade is true. That is exactly How I learnt about the history of the Jews. Also no one in Europe would object to your statements at all. the problem with Mooser was on two levels; (1) he figured out you were not jewish so therefore saying "Jewish" and "money" in the same sentence was verbotten, and (2) he is... more... - Danaa
Sorry for the history "lesson" - I didn't mean to lecture, but I am sharing my experience as a one who came to this country as a foreigner and was astounded to find out how little people knew about history of, say, Europe. And that included some of the most learned jews I met. That includes Phil himself. Only in history departments you find knowledgeable people. So Mooser, to bring the... more... - Danaa
Anyways, i take all this into account when I talk to people like Annie or mooser or keith or even Slater. I see no point (though once i may have) of denouncing people as ignoramuses, having become cognizant of just how ignorant I am about things I learnt nothing about. that being said, it's true that I get treated better than you or Sean. Benefit of the doubt, tribal "status" and all... more... - Danaa
My own suggestion is: get a blog going that's run by a mix of jewish and not jewish editors. Not easy but all it takes is two, one on each side who are open minded and have the kind of non-ascerbic personality on-line that would attract others. Phil, whatever people think about him, simply brought an attractive personality to the I/P debates - who wouldn't want to have dinner with him? who wouldn't be willing to even pay for dinner. So there - this is what it's all about. personality first, debates later. - Danaa
Danaa -- I hear you loud and clear on your views on social media mining, and I respect them. We all process information in our unique and idiosyncratic ways -- and thank God for that. I like social media mining precisely because I value my time -- it permits me to scoop up the most valuable new information for me personally in the least amount of time and with the least amount of... more... - Sean McBride
Danaa -- I also appreciate you being so forthright and forceful in expressing your opinions about the Annie/Mooser situation -- why beat around the bush about your views? :) Neither of us is shy about expressing our opinions and I like that -- it cuts through the bullshit nice and quick -- and eventually things get sorted out one way or the other. I wouldn't waste time in discussions... more... - Sean McBride
Wrt to the tug of war with Annie, my held-up posts were cleared -- I assume either by Phil or Adam -- which is what I expected would happen. - Sean McBride
Danaa, no I dont mind the imput. But it mystifies me that so many Jews on MW who are so into the Jewish subject seem to have no real historical knowledge at all about actual Jewish history. Next to my fiction addiction, I am a history fan, not expert, but read a lot about different eras and countries that come up on my radar screen--so when I got involved on MW, where the theme is very... more... - American
Tragedy is that the opportunity for a Jewish Renaissance in the US has ended in capitulation to tribalism. This tribalism also ties it to the "diasporic". The term "diaspora" of course is a Zionist one; it predates Herzl. The immense wealth and influence has not served the core ideals of equity and fairness but a neurotic worldview that bristles against and blames the outsider in the... more... - peacefly
peacefly -- great comment -- overloaded with content ("overloaded" is a compliment) -- you packed many powerful ideas into that single paragraph. The key challenge facing Jewish civilization in the 21st century: solving the problem you described. I'm an optimist -- I think it can be solved in a positive way to the satisfaction and benefit of everyone. - Sean McBride
Jewish messianism is a powerful force that can evolve in both negative and positive directions. Let's figure out how to nudge forward the positive impulses -- the universalist strains in the culture rather than the tribalist and xenophobic strains -- but without abandoning the culture as a whole. But doing that will require ruthless honesty in trying to figure out what elements in the culture have often gone wrong. This is not a project for the timid. - Sean McBride
I cant find anything positive about Jewish messianism. And I havent been able to find any universal strains in the culture either. Every time I ask for some examples of the universalism all I get is quotes from Jewish writings. What I want is real world 'examples' of how they have 'practiced' universal principles. - American
Jews have often been in the forefront in the battle for social justice, human rights, civil rights and civil liberties. But Zionism has created enormous confusion about which values Jewish civilization really stands for. - Sean McBride
What is most problematic in Jewish civilization: mystical ethnic collectivism. That meme is at the core of both ancient Judaism and contemporary Zionism. - Sean McBride
'' Jews have often been in the forefront in the battle for social justice, human rights, civil rights and civil liberties'..sean)......Still, give me some examples in history, countries, movements other than some Jews involvement in Civil Rights. I am looking for specific examples. In all my research i cant find any movements by Jews in human social issues prior to their involvement in... more... - American
Cant find any Jewish movement against SA Apartheid either---->Search Results History of the Jews in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_South_Africa Wikipedia The early patterns of Jewish South African history are almost identical with ..... The majority of South African Jews were unsupportive of the anti-apartheid cause. ‎History - ‎Today... more... - American
That's because there was no such movement. Vast majority of these movements were supported in the U.S. out of self-interest or safe emotional ways to exercise responses to Holocaust - hence no outrage against own tribe in Occupied Palestine - and not overarching universalism. That's why its quoted, first they came for the [fill in the blanks]. Jews in SA had no fear as "whites", many of... more... - peacefly
American
Oh Look...Obama found his balls..
''Today, following successful diplomacy to secure the release of U.S. citizen Alan Gross, President Obama announced that he's moving to restore full diplomatic relations with Cuba and to ease the half-century U.S. embargo on Cuba. President Obama called on Congress to end the embargo completely, referring to the embargo as a failure. [1] [2] Not surprisingly, Republicans like Senator Marco Rubio are attacking the President's diplomatic initiative. [3] That's why we're pushing back immediately, urging Americans to contact Congress in support of President Obama's diplomacy. You can sign our petition to Congress here: http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/act... - American
American
http://mondoweiss.net/2014... Israel will lose all American Jews but the crazies--- Philip Weiss
Weiss - '' I predict an open uprising in the American Jewish community in the next few weeks before the election. - American
Well the crazies happen to be the ones in charge of all the Israel -US and Jewish bizness. - American
American
Republican Kasich Forces Public Schools To Partner with Religion Or Lose Taxpayer Funding http://www.politicususa.com/2014...
'' Obviously, there are Christian extremists in America who believe, like the Islamic State extremists, that it is the government’s duty to force religious instruction on public schools, and this week, Ohio Governor John Kasich made that “religious extremist duty” mandatory in Ohio. Kasich issued a statement through a spokesman informing Ohio schools that if they fail to align with Christian organizations, they will lose funding. It should disabuse any American of the idea that this sad country is exceptional; unless they consider theocracy a la ISIS exceptional - American
'' Kasich’s theocratic initiative is part and parcel of the religious right fundamentalists’ “Onward Christian Soldier” campaign to eradicate “deviant schools and replace them with institutions that will propagate Christian family values by issuing government edicts that all education will be handed over to the church,” and funded with taxpayer dollars. It is now the law in Ohio that... more... - American
Well why the hell not?...taxpayers are already funding Jewish religious schools and colleges with grants. Are there any politicians that have a gd grain of sense or any respect for the Constitution? - American
American
iya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/12/17/EU-court-orders-Hamas-removal-from-terror-blacklist.html EU court orders Hamas removal from terror list
''The European Union’s second highest court annulled on Wednesday the bloc's decision to keep Hamas on a list of terrorist organizations, but temporarily maintained the measures for a period of three months or until an appeal was closed. - American
'' The 2001 listing of Hamas was based not on sound legal judgments but on “factual imputations derived from the press and the Internet,” a statement from the General Court of the European Union read. - American
'' Hamas’s military wing was added to the European Union’s first-ever terrorism blacklist drawn up in December 2001 in the wake of the September 11 attacks on the United States - American
Adding Hamas to the terrorist list because of 911 was nothing but more of the US Zionist/Israel cabal hokey shit to begin with. So absurd. - American
I am still having problems so sometimes the link takes and sometimes it doesnt. - American
Here is the working link: http://english.alarabiya.net/en... Your link above was truncated at the beginning. - Sean McBride
If you ever have tech questions, just ask here in the public feed. And I am still happy to help out Taxi with her FF problems if she wants the help. - Sean McBride
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Yes, Virginia, there is a liberal Zionist - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
Allan Brownfeld explains that Liberal Zionism has never existed, because Zionism was always based on an illiberal idea, denying the Palestinian presence and removing indigenous people from the land
What liberal Zionists do to others in the name of ethnic nationalism can be done to them -- and no doubt will be done. - Sean McBride
"Run don’t walk to read this article in the Washington Report for Middle East Affairs: “Lamenting the Decline of ‘Liberal Zionism’ Is Futile—Since It Never Really Existed.” In which Allan Brownfeld of the American Council for Judaism explains that the crisis liberal Zionists are experiencing today over anti-democratic trends in Israel is actually the collapse of their own illusions: these liberal Zionists should have recognized long ago that the ideology they embraced was illiberal at its core." - Sean McBride
"Those who believe that Israel is now in the process of abandoning its founding philosophy of “liberal Zionism” are engaged in a futile enterprise, for that “liberal” Zionism never existed—it is simply a convenient myth. They have not confronted a contrary thesis—one supported by history—that Zionism was flawed from the beginning, not only by ignoring the existing indigenous Palestinian population, but by rejecting the dominant spiritual history and essence of Judaism." - Sean McBride
c; Moshe Sharett quote; "We have come to conquer a country from a people inhabiting it…the land must be ours alone." - Sean McBride
"Those who look at Israel’s current policies, such as continued construction and settlement of the occupied territories, are wrong to blame the country’s right wing. Labor and Likud Israeli governments alike have advanced the occupation. Both right- and left-wing Israelis, apparently, are comfortable with the status quo. Those who lament what they think is the decline—or end—of “liberal... more... - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Allan Brownfeld wrote: <blockquote> 1. ... by rejecting the dominant spiritual history and essence of Judaism ... 2. ... turned its back on the Jewish universal spiritual tradition ... </blockquote> - Sean McBride
Could Allan Brownfeld, or anyone here, provide the names of some key Jewish religious authors and works, outside of Enlightenment non-nationalist Reform Judaism (which has turned out to be a small historical blip in the big scheme of things), that give voice to "the Jewish universal spiritual tradition" and "the dominant spiritual history and essence of Judaism"? Some key quotes? The Torah is an intensely tribalist and nationalist ideological document -- one fully consistent with contemporary Zionism. - Sean McBride
Any good quotes? - Sean McBride
How does Brownfeld's interpretation of Judaism jibe with that of Israel Shahak or Yehoshafat Harkabi? - Sean McBride
Where is the "universalism," for instance, in Maimonides? - Sean McBride
There are deeply grounded cultural and ideological reasons for why the Jewish religious establishment has embraced Zionism with such enthusiasm -- and why it continues to double down on Zionism decade after decade, crisis after crisis. Until that complex of ideas is fully investigated, untangled and understood, it is going to be difficult to change a critical mass of Jewish minds about the rightness and righteousness of Zionism. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Once again, Phil himself has introduced the subject of Judaism on Mondoweiss -- and is promoting the familiar theme that Zionism is an anomalous and illegitimate deviation from Judaism. I don't think that is an argument that can withstand a fair intellectual challenge based on reading aright the foundational documents of Judaism for the past few millennia. - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
One can untangle and bring clarity to this subject by assembling two collections of quotes: - Sean McBride
1. universalist quotes by leading Jewish religious thinkers - Sean McBride
2. anti-universalist, ethnocentric, nationalist, racist, tribalist and xenophobic quotes by leading Jewish religious thinkers - Sean McBride
Which stream of thinking has exerted the greatest influence on Judaism as a whole over the last few millennia -- and especially during the last half century? - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
I would be interested in pursuing this discussion with Phil Weiss and Allan Brownfeld -- not Mooser or Annie Robbins. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- once again check out Mooser's behavior on Mondoweiss -- he is initiating discussion with me -- I am not initiating discussion with him. And his comment to me is entirely without substance. Clearly any criticism of Judaism gets under his skin -- but he is unable to explain precisely why. - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Another question for Allan Brownfeld: - Sean McBride
Within Judaism, the Ultra-Orthodox, Satmar and Neturei Karta represent the main (and perhaps) only anti-Zionist streams. In what way are they universalists? - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Interesting -- Mondoweiss deleted my first comment above -- which struck me as being perfectly reasonable and civil. Why? But it approved the second comment. Mondoweiss appears to be highly conflicted and inconsistent about this subject. - Sean McBride
TIf Mooser is initiating something you don't need to respond. Do you respond to every commenter on this or any other subject? why do you care so much what Mooser says? do you take on Hophmi all the time? or every comment Annie makes? I must say that your comments come across to me as needling. however much you read on the subject you are not a religious jew so it is not your faith or... more... - Danaa
just be glad I am not putting up this comment on MW. that would really bring "them" (whoever they are) out of the wood works. - Danaa
Danaa -- what is important to me are the destructive effects that this ideology is having on my country -- the United States. Asking reasonable questions about the ideology in question is not "needling" -- it's an attempt to get at the bottom of what is driving this ideology and political movement. Phil posted an article citing Allan Brownfeld which, once again, addressed the... more... - Sean McBride
Danaa -- you seem to be arguing that one has to be a religious Jew to ask questions about Judaism and religious Zionism. By that reasoning, it would be improper for Jews to raise questions about Christianity, Islam or any other non-Jewish religion. And in any case, the focus of the discussion here is about *politics* -- not religion -- about the ways in which religious believers are... more... - Sean McBride
Whatever you would like Brownfeld to do he is not going to do it and there's no way you can force it. just because you want someone to come out and debate you or explain their position, they will only if they want to. My suggestion would be to find him on his own blog or whatever perch he is on and have him take it up there - if he wants to. The emphasis here is on "want". - Danaa
what i don't understand is why you insist they (whoever0 debate an issue with YOU. For whatever reason they don't want to have that discussion specifically with you. The more you insist, the less likely they are to take up your question. May be you could get someone else to raise it? or perhaps accept that everyone basically agrees there's a problem in the Judaism/zionism department and somehow those who care about judaism (which is not you and is certainly not me) need to resolve it for themselves. - Danaa
Sure what jews do affects others. But you want to argue something that that they don't want to argue WITH YOU about. I keep telling you they ain't gonna pick up the glove as much as you want to duel it out. If I were you I would take it personally, and make decisions accordingly. Perhaps there is a legal instrument you could use to force them to come out and debate/discuss/explain whatever. - Danaa
Now look what you did Sean - you brought out pepsi! now we can all have fun together, can't we? - Danaa
Well, the logjam seems to have broken -- the debate is proceeding on MW. :) - Sean McBride
I looked at the comments. I've said this before----I rarely see any Jews who actually have a true and factual understanding of Jewish history and I think it is because they rely on Jewish writers who write 'only' about Jews. Therefore they get only a Jewish interpretation' of world history, events, the Jews place in it and etc.. They should read some 'straight' world history books by... more... - American
What is most frustrating in trying to discuss the tribe, Jews, zionism or anything related with them is they do not understand how a person (or critics) can hold two views at the same time. There is nothing contradictory about treating or regarding Jews as 'individuals' and at the same time recognizing that Jews often act as a tribe or 'collective'. - American
I can easily agree with what you say American regarding views of history. In Israel in particular we got strictly a jewish viewpoint of history's larger events. For example, we really studied only history of places and countries where jews were at one point or another, and only those periods when they actually lived in the land. examples are Poland and Russia. We got very little Russian... more... - Danaa
ChasMark -- interesting essay on Machiavelli. You should post it on GFTG or your personal feed. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Mooser and Annie Robbins on Mondoweiss are still trying to obstruct and censor discussion about the ideological linkages between Judaism and Zionism.
And Annie Robbins is continuing to try to protect Mooser from being challenged about his views on Judaism and Zionism -- whenever this topic comes up, she interjects herself between Mooser and me -- really strange behavior. Mooser hides trembling behind her skirts -- he loses his tongue. - Sean McBride
On the subject of religious Zionism, both Jewish and Christian, Mooser and Annie seem to know absolutely nothing -- no cites, no background reading, no facts, no insights. Their agenda seems to be to protect Judaism from any responsibility for Zionism -- which is an absurd position. The Jewish religious establishment is by far the most important component of the Israel lobby. - Sean McBride
"Fofani"? I don't think this is appropriate, Sean and will not get you many fans. It just looks like you are irritated that Mooser won't engage with you. It's his choice, you know, to not debate this or another issue. Just like hostage. Debate only makes sense if there's another side that actually want to debate. You may want to find another angle to get your point across is my recommendation. - Danaa
Danaa -- you may have missed many of the exchanges. Annie Robbins has repeatedly inserted herself in the discussions about Judaism and Zionism in a way that was clearly intended to obstruct and disrupt that line of conversation and investigation on Mondoweiss. And she has repeatedly failed to draw clear distinctions between her role as a Mondoweiss moderator, Mondoweiss spokesperson and... more... - Sean McBride
Annie Fofani is her Twitter handle, by the way. https://twitter.com/anniefo... Nothing derogatory was intended in the use of her self-chosen Twitter name. (Did Danaa think I was taking a cheap shot at her? :) -- not my style.) - Sean McBride
I thought this was a reference to the Name Game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... (Annie, Annie, Fofannie) But since her name is Annie, not Ana, her name actually would make the Name Game (which uses the ending "-ana") into a tongue twister. - WJones
My main problem with Annie -- she consistently misrepresents and garbles my views and directs her ire at straw men -- after awhile, one loses patience in trying to sort out the mental mess. You can only have a useful discussion when the participants quickly get each other's points -- and respond intelligently to what you are actually saying. Mooser is even worse in this department -- he... more... - Sean McBride
If annie and Mooser's debate style is not to the level you want then just stop debating them. isn't that the obvious solution? my only question is why do you insist on continuing something that you are not happy with? may be you should find some other people to engage with on this topic, possibly not on MW. - Danaa
I am not saying anything here about the pros or cons of this particular debate, because the point of your point is that they (annie, Mooser et al) don't seem to want to engage with you on the topic. At least not sincerely. If you keep bringing up the topic trying to draw out Mooser, it'll just look like you are trying to score debate points. - Danaa
Danaa -- you've got this completely backwards -- when I tried to debate this subject with other people, Mooser and Annie repeatedly interjected themselves into the discussions with the clear intent to disrupt and obstruct -- they were the aggressors. I know what I am talking about -- I was in the middle of every exchange :) -- (all of it archived, by the way). - Sean McBride
Sean, the topic is probably worth discussing for the sake of other readers, but not to expect Annie and Mooser to engage in a constructive way. I don't know that Mooser is really able to make a detailed engagement on the topic, pro or contra. Annie probably is, but she straightjackets herself on the topic, since I asked why are so there so many PEPs who are conservative on the issue,... more... - WJones
I don't know what the deal is with annie and Mooser but I don't engage with either of them any more since the debate/argument Mooser started with me that annie butted into and was very snide and insulting. I made some comment on a thread in response to something saying I had always regarded Jews as religion because that's how I was raised, that Jews were Jews because they were members... more... - American
American -- that's the well-established pattern by now with Annie and Mooser -- they work as a tag team -- with Annie often interceding (butting in) to try to protect "little brother" Mooser -- who has trouble standing up on his own two feet in a serious debate. Often neither one makes a lick of sense -- often they are snide and insulting. They have dragged down the level of the comments section. The basic agenda -- constrain the critique of Zionism to what they consider to be safe limits. - Sean McBride
Well I just ignore them now--I don't really comment that much on MW any more anyway. My only interest in ever looking into the tribe or Jewishness/Jewish history'Judaism to begin with was simply because of the political problem of Jewish Zionism to try and see*why* there is always a Jewish problem century after century. I think I now have a good grip on the 'why of it'----and imo if... more... - American
Avigail's essay was really great. I think more people should have paid attention (judging from the comments - I expected a lot more. If the thread isn't closed down yet I may interject). The key here is the psychology of brain washing from infancy (that's how it's done in Israel). She is saying what I have been for a while now (and she is definitely the professional psychologist; I am... more... - Danaa
'' The key here is the psychology of brain washing from infancy (that's how it's done in Israel). She is saying what I have been for a while now (and she is definitely the professional psychologist; I am just a good observer) that israelis are a cult, a really virulent one. And one with enough tentacles to draw in their supposed bretherns among the jews of the world. Who then go on to... more... - American
MOOSER: "[“I see ancient Judaism as holding an inner Messianic prophecy of universalism.” ~W.Jones"] Yes, but you have always been one of the world’s premier chumps, so you would think a meshuggana thing like that. Go ahead, be a schmendrick, I can’t stop you." http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - WJones
I think he is being sarcastic. - WJones
Let me ask you again, WJones. why do you insist on carrying on a conversation with someone who simply doesn't seem to want to talk to you? Mooser does not want to discuss anything to do with ancient Judaism and/or whatever "prophesies' one imagines were contained in the OT (which, as you know I consider Rantings, not "prophesies") with anyone, be they jewish or not. It's not his shtick,... more... - Danaa
Another thing - most people who are jewish, however observant they may or may not be, are nopt very interested in talking about ancient judaism, and especially not with those who say they are Christians. That task is perhaps best left to historians and/or theologians with a historical bent. I realize Christians (cf. mostly protestants) do like to talk about early Christianity which gets... more... - Danaa
On this again eh? I honestly don't see the point unless you are trying to prove that Judaism provided the seeds for Zionism. I think there are some beliefs in Judaism that 'could have' ..mainly how it evolved for some into a ethnic or 'peoplehood tribe' . But seriously, how do you think you're going to change whatever is in the minds of those you keep trying to discuss this with? The side that pursues this and the side that avoids it both have their minds made up already so its a lose- lose. - American
American saying it more simply than I did, more to the point, too. - Danaa
Mooser, working in tandem with Annie Robbins, was aggressive and abusive in trying to shut down discussion about the relations between Judaism and Zionism on Mondoweiss as a whole. He started that mess. And now many people are wondering where he is really coming from on these issues. If the subject makes him defensive, nervous and shrill, he should steer clear of it -- and he should... more... - Sean McBride
What this controversy revealed about Mooser is that underneath the comic exterior lurks a true fanatic when it comes to Judaism -- very angry and xenophobic in a classical Old Testament way. - Sean McBride
The anti-Zionist and non-Zionist factions in contemporary Judaism are on the far fringe and are completely powerless -- the Jewish religious establishment overwhelmingly supports Zionism and frames it as an organic extension (or even core component) of Judaism. Regarding the topic in general: it comes up all the time on Mondoweiss, spontaneously, among many commenters and MW writers,... more... - Sean McBride
Judaism is the ideological glue that holds together the ethnic cult of Zionism. - Sean McBride
Drat! I lost my comment and have a cruddy head cold and am going to bed---but will just say again ....quit beating your head against the wall. Mooser and annie don't want it, aren't going to engage. I don't know why you try/care anyway cause nothing anyone outside of Judaism says about Judaism being Zionism or visa versa one way or another is going to change anything. - American
I have no interest in discussing the topic with Mooser and Annie -- but I do with other people on MW who are interested in the topic and who are much more knowledgeable about it than they are. You should advise them to butt out and stick to issues they know something about -- with Mooser, that would be doing Henny Youngman routines, circa the 1950s in the Catskills and Borscht Belt. - Sean McBride
I doubt my telling them to butt out would have any affect. lol BUT.... if you want to pursue the subject with other commenters then be smart and don't step in the cow pie---by addressing Mooser on it, don't respond to him or annie regardless of what they say if they do butt in, ignore it----only respond to the others you say have an interest. - American
yet again, I must second American. Don't engage with those who don't want to engage with you. Addressing others is fine, why not. You know, the easiest thingto do on MW, as I found is to ignore people. Which is why I'm always amazed that people were so tempted to respond to someone like hophmi or the other pro-Israel posters. I did so only once in a blue moon and only when i felt like... more... - Danaa
Danaa and American -- again, you are missing the point: Mooser and Annie Robbins were trying to prevent *other* MW users from engaging in discussion on this topic with *one another*. They have sought to censor and shut down the topic of Judaism and Zionism altogether by means of personal attacks and even vicious verbal abuse (from Mooser). I had numerous lengthy and useful conversations... more... - Sean McBride
But this is a non-issue now -- the MW comments section has lost its vitality -- most of the heavyweight commenters and commenting have disappeared. - Sean McBride
What is going on here is that some MW personalities are trying to cling to the belief that Zionism is a peculiar deviation from the Jewish tradition which "hijacked" Judaism. But this is not the case -- the roots of Zionism lie firmly in Judaism -- that is why the Jewish religious establishment has embraced it passionately and without reservation. What was a deviation was Reform Judaism... more... - Sean McBride
Quite a few minds on MW were capable of discussing these issues in an interesting way based on a mastery of scholarship -- but they are now gone. And this is a conversation that has gone right over the heads of Mooser and Annie. - Sean McBride
DANAA, You ask: <<"Let me ask you again, WJones. why do you insist on carrying on a conversation with someone who simply doesn't seem to want to talk to you? Mooser does not want to discuss anything to do with ancient Judaism... My suggestion is - find someone else to converse with.">> I don't have a special interest in talking with Mooser. I make general comments on MW about things I... more... - WJones
WJones -- indeed -- the issue is about Mooser and Annie fouling up and degrading the MW comments section in general with classical troll methods -- not about any desire to engage in discussions with them. - Sean McBride
''indeed -- the issue is about Mooser and Annie fouling up and degrading the MW comments section in general...Sean).....Yeah but there is nothing you can do about it. The best days of the MW comment section are gone, not likely to return. Except for a few times when articles like the one about Ferguson and cops appears and gets people arguing their side and debating its mostly just repetitive yada yada. - American
American -- as you know, I've pretty much written off the MW comments section. There are still some good posts there, however -- for instance, I just quickly scanned the 100 Most Recent Comments and noticed some interesting posts by JLewisDickerson. The valuable commenters go well beyond opinionating -- they load up their comments with important documentary material from high-quality... more... - Sean McBride
WJones also made some excellent posts just recently. - Sean McBride
I wanted to interject into the comments to defend Sean for getting into a worthwhile topic. - WJones
Once again, Mooser is up to his old tricks: http://mondoweiss.net/2014... Always in attack mode on the subject of Judaism. - Sean McBride
Sean, who cares what mode Mooser is in? seems it's only you that takes it to heart. - Danaa
Once again, he is cluttering up the comments section with nastiness and empty remarks while trying to disrupt a useful discussion about an all-important issue. It's beginning to sound like you are defending or excusing his behavior. I would like see an intelligent discussion on Mondoweiss concerning Allan Brownfeld's views on the relations between Judaism and Zionism. Perhaps it can still happen -- we'll see. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Estimated 15,000 people join ‘pinstriped Nazis’ on march in Dresden | World news | The Guardian - http://www.theguardian.com/world...
Estimated 15,000 people join ‘pinstriped Nazis’ on march in Dresden | World news | The Guardian
"Its members have been dubbed the “pinstriped Nazis” and they refer to their demonstrations as “evening strolls” through German cities. But on Monday night, an estimated 15,000 people joined Pegida, or Patriotic Europeans Against Islamisation of the West, in a march through Dresden carrying banners bearing slogans such as “Zero tolerance towards criminal asylum seekers”, “Protect our homeland” and “Stop the Islamisation”." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Lutz Bachmann, the head of Pegida, a nascent anti-foreigner campaign group, led the crowds, either waving or draped in German flags, in barking chants of “Wir sind das Volk”, or “We are the people”, the slogan adopted by protesters in the historic “Monday demonstrations” against the East German government in the runup to the fall of the Berlin Wall." - Sean McBride
Much of Europe is going "Zionist" -- ethnic nationalist -- using many of the same propaganda memes as Israel and the Israel lobby. - Sean McBride
"“Muslims are plotting to infect our food chain with their excrement,” said a man in his 60s, who refused to give his name. Another, a middle-aged woman in a red leather jacket, said she was shocked that “asylum seekers in Germany have expensive mobile phones, while I cannot afford such luxury and others still cannot afford to eat properly”." - Sean McBride
"Almost two-thirds of Germans, according to a poll for news magazine Spiegel by the TNS institute, believe that Angela Merkel’s government is not doing enough to address concerns about immigration and asylum seekers, and 34% think Germany is enduring a process of “Islamisation”." - Sean McBride
"“Something quite new is brewing here,” said Hajo Funke, a researcher into rightwing extremism at the Free University in Berlin. “We haven’t seen rudiments like these of an extreme rightwing inspired mass movement for years”. Funke said that even the group’s name was incendiary. “It’s nothing short of a veritable call to arms by far-right populists,” he said, suggesting that the message triggered comparisons to Third Reich propaganda." - Sean McBride
You can blame the Zios and the US and the GWOT crap for the anti Muslim incitement. But its also going to be very easy for the racist right wingers to turn their sights on the Jews after having dispatched the Muslims. - American
They dont like the 'Islamisation of Germany the same way they didnt like the 'Jewification of Germany in the 1920's. I have been watching the zionist part in this nationalist rise for a couple of years now. But they are so stupid----they think they can 'partner with' nationalist as a way to increase their zio or jewish dominance in various counteries. But because of their naracisssism... more... - American
The obvious best current move for European and American white nationalists is to cooperate with Zionists now, in an alliance of convenience against Islam on behalf of "the West," and then to use the political momentum created by that xenophobia to deal with other groups -- including their former allies. But surely Zionists can figure out this play as well -- so they must have a... more... - Sean McBride
One easy prediction: these nationalists will reclaim and seize by force the wealth that they believe was "stolen" from them through "trickery" and "deceit." Who can't see this coming? - Sean McBride
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