Arié Moyal - Comments

Q4: November 13, 2009 - A question for the community here. Where do YOU want to see this group evolve to? What opportunities do you feel CmtyChat has to further expand and reach out to more CMs and those wanting to just learn more about community management?

November 13, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Open-forum: so don't be afraid to share your thoughts :) Really want to gauge ppl's feelings and ideas on CmtyChat after several months since starting this chat. - Sonny Gill

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That's an awesome question. Since social business is starting to catch on, I think it'd be great to talk more about the growth of the CM role internally. Also, maybe start discussing Dir. of Community roles? I dunno, I'm spouting off here... - Teresa Basich

Good suggestions, Teresa! Spout away :) I've been getting a lot more into the social business side of social media and CMs definitely play a huge role in that shift. - Sonny Gill

Definitely Sue. Does everyone enjoy the FriendFeed format still in comparison to all other chats being on Twitter? Always something I think about so worth asking everyone here. - Sonny Gill

I think CMs are going to take on a lot of work on the internal training and education side as social business takes hold, for sure. I'd love to get some ppl here working in director positions at companies going toward social business. And yes, Sue has a great point -- maybe a different time to integrate some new faces? - Teresa Basich

That's a good question, Sue. I've thought about that a lot as well - especially as Bryan and I would much of the time have conflicting schedules on Friday afternoons (travel/work). What times would you suggest? Mid-week evenings? Obv not coinciding with other chats. - Sonny Gill

Yeah, I really like the FF format. Threaded discussions rock. - Teresa Basich

I prefer FF - Joe Kikta from iPhone

A lot more to think about now as we move forward with CmtyChat. Glad you guys still dig FF but timing may be something to think about adjusting. - Sonny Gill

I think we need to tell more people about it (each one of us tell 2 CM friends) and possibly reschedule it so it doesn't conflict with my lunch! LOL - Arié Moyal

I think it can be a place to learn and a place to share I think we should also maybe have a job board and possibly help develop some best practices & case studies we can share - Arié Moyal

I hear ya Arie & Sue. Sorry for taking your lunchtime, Arie ;) But evening chats come aplenty and people seem open to it, so definitely worth thinking into more and seeing which time slot we could fit it into. - Sonny Gill

Suck it up Arie :) - Joe Kikta from iPhone

Thanks a lot everyone! The hour flew by - but it's been great, as usual :) - Sonny Gill

What's great about FF is that it's threaded and you can go back and read the stuff even after the chat is done (which means we have to be on our best behaviour) - Arié Moyal

I like that Sue! - Arié Moyal

Interesting idea, Sue! So starting it up here in the FF room on Monday w/ a question and then full on discussion still on Friday? - Sonny Gill

I missed the chat but wanted to add my +1 for FF over Twitter. I don't use FF normally but for this chat it's perfect. I miss the chats a lot and love being able to come back and read them so easily in this nice neat format. - Michelle

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

WRAP-UP: November 13, 2009 - It was a bit quieter this Friday but appreciate everyone who was able to spend their afternoon here and chat it up. You guys rock! :)

November 13, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Thanks, Sonny! And thanks to our tiny little group today. :) Looking forward to seeing where this group goes! - Teresa Basich

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Yes thank you Sonny and thanks everyone for putting up with my shenanigans ;) - Arié Moyal

Thanks for sharing today guys! - Joe Kikta from iPhone

Thank you, Sue! That's me. :) And thanks for stopping by my blog! I really appreciate it. - Teresa Basich

Yay! I'm part of a community! LOL - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

Q3 : November 13, 2009 - Being that it's Friday the 13th, let's hear some horror stories. What are some of the biggest challenges you've faced as a CM but also, how did you overcome those obstacles? (suggestion by Tanya McGinnity)

November 13, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

What about one I'm facing? my JobAngels clean-up and re-engagement project? - Teresa Basich

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Sue - that does not sound fun! Sorry to hear that - has it happened before? If so, any extreme reactions? How did you help calm the situation? - Sonny Gill

T - definitely. What obstacles do you have? JobAngels has a pretty large community but with that are huge opportunities to become better. - Sonny Gill

Biggest challenge by far is re-engaging users. The community's core is really on LinkedIn and right now there's so little management that it's heavily spammed. I have to clean up as much as I can and set some boundaries while getting a very needy community to engage in a positive way. Also, figuring out how to draw people into the conversation who aren't unemployed or who can and want to help job seekers. - Teresa Basich

@Sue, can you say a little more about what happened? Was it a mix-up on the inside of your company? Or a misunderstanding of some sort? Often that info is proprietary, so I understand if you can't say more about it. - Teresa Basich

T - that's definitely a challenge but I've seen job seekers and those wanting to help the unemployed, typically stir up some great conversations about the job market and specific situations. I think it'll be a welcomed change for the cmty to see that they want to be heard and can engage now, outside of just getting job leads. - Sonny Gill

Sue - sorry is definitely one of the most underused words, especially in a business setting. Ppl sometimes equate sorry to failing. But I see it as a second coming, where you can grow from and get better. Whether with communities or otherwise, it's no different. - Sonny Gill

@Sonny -- Definitely. I think the key will be inspiring people to start talking, not just blasting. Getting rid of the spam and filtering, etc. Right now most members see JobAngels as a place to find leads, not necessarily talk about their job search and use the forum as support. Not sure this work is as much challenging as much as just downright hard work. - Teresa Basich

A bit of both :) - Sonny Gill

@Sue, that's definitely a tough situation. Communication is key, especially to managers who are doing customer/community facing like you. - Teresa Basich

Q4 is up, and it's direct at YOU :) - Sonny Gill

@Sue, I think that's one of the biggest challenges for any community, and especially prevalent on LinkedIn. I'm still utterly impressed by Beth Harte's mgmt of the MarketingProfs community on LinkedIn and I think I'm going to need to pick her brain. :) - Teresa Basich

Sorry my browser crashed - does that count as a community crash? LOL - Arié Moyal

Yes Arie, we're offended! ;) - Sonny Gill

Teresa I love JobAngels I DM you guys stuff all the time - Arié Moyal

I know I've shared it a few times but Rachel Happe's Power and peril of Online COmmunities presentation is awesome! - Arié Moyal

@Sonny Sorry. (There I can admit that I've failed) Will you forgive me? ;) - Arié Moyal

Arie - of course! ;) - Sonny Gill

Have a link to Rachel's presentation? - Sonny Gill

SOnny: www.slideshare.net/rhappe/the-power-and-peril-of-online-communities - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

PREVIEW/INTRO: November 13, 2009 - Hi and welcome everybody to the Friday the 13th edition of CmtyChat :) Feel free to introduce yourselves and post any thoughts/questions you would like addressed!

November 13, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Hey everyone. Tanya here. I'd love to hear some horror stories on this Friday the 13th. How have you dealt with some of the challenges of Community Management? - Tanya McGinnity

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Hey Tanya - nice to see ya again! I'll be sure to incorporate your question within today's chat :) - Sonny Gill

Arié here, communtiy manager for babyTEL's Social VoIP division in Montreal Is anyone noticing new trends in CM we should know about? - Arié Moyal

Hey Arié! Glad you could make it. Interesting question - perhaps we can build on that here in this discussion post and hear from other folks? - Sonny Gill

Let's kick things off! - Sonny Gill

Trying this on the iPhone today. Probably skulking today - Joe Kikta from iPhone

Hey Joe! Curious to see how that pans out Which app are you using? - Arié Moyal

Just accessing thru browser - Joe Kikta from iPhone

Hey Joe - hope the browser version on the iPhone is working ok for you! - Sonny Gill

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

Q2: November 13, 2009 - With some businesses slowly shifting their internal culture and how they run their biz towards the way of this social web (re: P2P social business: http://thebrandbuilder.wordpress.com/2009...), how will CMs have to adjust to these shifts? Where will their skills/roles evolve to with this change in how businesses function?

November 13, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

And here I thought we *were* the change! - Arié Moyal

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Ooo, me, me! Kidding ;) I think one of the biggest changes will be internal community management. I feel like there will be a bigger push to expand the community inside the walls of business. Connecting more people, creating more bridges. - Teresa Basich

Ha - we are but there's an even bigger change happening that we and social media heads alike, will play a huge role in. - Sonny Gill

@T - most definitely. Connecting not just more people, but the entire org. in what the business is trying to accomplish. For everyone to understand goals, have resources at hand, open doors and open-communication on what's happening within the biz. - Sonny Gill

The Canadian government has an internal social network aimed at making things run more efficiently Of course its closed :) - Arié Moyal

I guess for me the answer is does out job really change or does our public change - Arié Moyal

(Ok that was a question not an answer...) - Arié Moyal

Arie - good question and I agree w/Sue that we're already doing this - so In essence, our role may not change all that much. But in most cases, we'll be dealing with our internal community more than we ever have in the past. - Sonny Gill

@Sue Neener neener neener! ;) - Arié Moyal

Q3 is up! - Sonny Gill

@Sonny The internal shift needs to happen - Outside people just want more ways to connect with their brands - Arié Moyal

Right Sue. We need to be vocal and be sure we're helping lead the charge. To us, it's a no-brainer, but the organization will be looking for that leadership still to help in this shift. - Sonny Gill

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

Q1: November 13, 2009 - Living in a social economy where a company's every move is seen/heard, there are org's that have communities who don't necessarily believe in them. How can these co's/CMs bridge this trust gap? What steps do they need to take and where do they start?

November 13, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Way to hit hard nice and quick, Sonny! Can you give an example of what you're talking about? I mean, I get what you're saying, I just can't think of one! Trust is based in strong relationships that deliver on promises, that are consistently beneficial to both parties involved in the relationship. I think companies and CMs have to start there -- addressing concerns and figuring out what exactly makes community members distrust them or not fully believe in them. - Teresa Basich

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Oops - maybe a little too hard :) You're right, addressing concerns and seeing where these problems are stemming from is very important. I think it begins with the company itself understanding where their business is and if leaders across the board, internally, are conveying that message properly. Everybody really needs to be on the same page. - Sonny Gill

Obviously we have to make every community member read Trust Agents and give us their feedback LOL Kidding But I think it's important to find your enthusists and really talk to them - Arié Moyal

Have to know yourself before knowing how you can help others -- absolutely true. - Teresa Basich

I think that holds true outside of CM and even outside of business hehe - Arié Moyal

@Arie - good idea ;) That's a great idea as well - even going as far as bringing those loyalists in and gaining valuable feedback from them as well. Where THEY see our shortcomings and where they see us shining. - Sonny Gill

@Arie, thanks for the book recommendation. I am looking forward to reading Trust Agents. - Lou Ordorica

And you're right - it holds true in all aspects of business and life. Internal cultures and leadership has been a growing topic as of late and something many companies are slowly addressing. - Sonny Gill

Do you guys have any examples of companies who you personally have lost trust in but also see an opportunity to change that? - Sonny Gill

@Sonny Dell is a good example. They went from burying their head in the sand (remember Dell Hell?) to fully embracing social media, and even innovating (Dell Ideastorm, Dell Pulse). - Lou Ordorica

@Lou - good, popular example. You're right - they opened up, started listening more, taking action. They tapped into several communities through different strategies across the social web. - Sonny Gill

I'm with Sue -- Not just Twitter, either. Many companies broadcast and ignore problem. Maybe not even blatant ignoring, just misunderstanding of platforms and philosophy behind online engagement. - Teresa Basich

Starbucks - they're gone gone gone for a lot of people - They've gone ubercorporate and lost their way - Arié Moyal

@Sue - that's a problem we've seen from the get go, but shows even more now that businesses really don't know who they're targeting, what goals they have, heck even which people to employ as these CMs/SM 'strategists'. - Sonny Gill

@Sue I got told I need to be pushing stuff out and that I "listen" I think listening is the MOST valuable part of an org's "social media strategy" - Arié Moyal

@Arie - I've heard that as well. Honestly haven't kept up on what they've been doing, but their culture has become a lot more rigid from the bits I've read. - Sonny Gill

So, is this an issue of building trust internally before being able to bridge any sort of trust gap w/your external community? - Sonny Gill

@Sonny two words: Instant coffee - Arié Moyal

@Sonny, I think so. Building trust AND being on the same page re: co. philosophy, core of business efforts, and forward moves. - Teresa Basich

@Lou Not only has Dell done well from a CM perspective, they've been able to show ROI from it - Arié Moyal

As companies evolve in their use of social media, I think we will see more focused and purpose-specific outreach. For example, setting up a private community for top customers, giving them access to the firm's expert resources, and using the community instead of focus groups to glean insight and market intelligence. - Lou Ordorica

Private communities for top consumers have been around for a long time - Communispace does that almost exclusively I think - Arié Moyal

@Arie, you took the words out of my mouth re: Communispace and closed communities. - Teresa Basich

@Teresa I'm sorry, do you want them back? I didn't meant to take without asking How very un CM of me ;) - Arié Moyal

@Lou - good insight there and I totally agree. Those focused communities have been and will become even more important as businesses continue to evolve. It's more about a value-proposition (gah - buzzword) for their community vs. constantly pushing and pushing stuff out there. - Sonny Gill

@Arie, LOL, no, they're just fine with you. Probably happier and better used, actually. :) - Teresa Basich

Q2 is up! - Sonny Gill

I think community is about that exactly - community - it's not about the hard sell - Arié Moyal

The hard sell for CMs is to get the understanding/buy-in of the entire organization :) - Sonny Gill

@Sonny The irony there is most are hired to be CMs which would imply buy-in to the untrained eye LOL - Arié Moyal

@Arie - very true and very ironic. We're sometimes in an unfortunate position where many companies don't understand what they exactly need, but CMs looking to get a food in the door and cont. their career path, jump in these roles with the proper mindset, but doesn't mean the co. has the same. - Sonny Gill

CmtyChat: mark williams

WRAP UP: October 30, 2009 We’re coming to the end of the hour…thanks for the good tips on how small businesses can use social media. As social media goes more ‘mainstream’, more small businesses will be faced with how to devote their precious few resources to drive business, so this will be the next big problem to solve in our industry. Thank you...

October 30, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Thanks Mark! great discussion and ideas today. Have a great weekend! - lizGreaux

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thanks, liz...nice meeting you! - mark williams

Thanks Mark. Great job! Nice to meet all of you. - Tanya McGinnity

have a fun Halloween, Tanya! - mark williams

@Tanya Check your e-mail! Later everyone I'm late for a call! - Arié Moyal

Thanks for hosting today Mark! Great Job! - Joe Kikta

bye folks - thanks for allowing me a flyby! ;-) - Jim Storer

CmtyChat: mark williams

Q3: October 30, 2009: Given a budget of say...$50K per year to invest in social media programs, (including time/salary) how would you recommend a small business invest it? (community platform, blog, viral contests, anything else?)

October 30, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

I'd recommend they hire someone to teach them how to get the most out of free tools and an SM savvy VA to help manage it and then I'd focus on contests but it depends on the business - I'm currently coaching a business coaching company on customer engagment and those are a few of the things we're working on - Arié Moyal

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This will definitely vary widely by your type of business and what goals you have. - Joe Kikta

Assuming the salary part might be for a separate part-timer to work on social media programs, or for training, as Arie suggests. - Bryan Person

Much of this is more going to involve *time,* which is, of course, money in the end. Big community platform is probably out (too $$$), but a smaller one may work. Blog probably depends on the biz having someone who can blog decently. - Bryan Person

okay...I'll toss out some random small businesses and maybe folks will brainstorm? These are actual businesses that I know of, but are NOT clients. How about a campground. How would you spend their $50K budget? - mark williams

I agree with @Arie - lizGreaux

I'd recommend determining clear goals first. There is no money to waste going places where your customers or potential customers don't frequent. - Angela

for the campground, I might actually start with discussion boards on their site. so users can connect and ask about local amenities, whether there are bugs/snakes in the area etc. - mark williams

@Angela...let's assume that most small businesses would say their goal is to drive sales. - mark williams

doing a flyby in between calls... - Jim Storer

(and granted, that might not be realistic, but that's probably how they would state their goal.)how would you advise them? - mark williams

hey Jim! - Arié Moyal

as others have mentioned, it really varies based on type of business and goals.. but I think taking a look at a listening service and joining the conversations happening elsewhere will give you the most bang for your buck. - Jim Storer

@ Angela Too true. Goal setting is most important. It helps determine success. - Arié Moyal

hi arie... sorry i'm so late - Jim Storer

We'll forgive you this time - Right guys? :0 - Arié Moyal

what about a local movie theater? How would you recommend they spend their $50K budget? - mark williams

As a CM who is still identifying community members listening is the biggest part of my job - Arié Moyal

let's assume that the small business owner has come to you and said "I've heard I have to be using social media to market my business. I have $50K. Tell me what to do." - mark williams

if it is local i'd probably be out on the street more and connecting to the people who already come often - Arié Moyal

@Arie...once you listen...are you engaging too? What form does your engagement take? - mark williams

@ mark I engage when appropriate So far it's been more responding to tweets and being helpful if I can - Arié Moyal

ok - movie theater owner... if i already have a web presence, i'd probably create a blog and do as Arie said... get out on the street more and connecting to the people who already come often... highlight other local businesses and figure out how to become a more robust member of the community (vs just a business) - Jim Storer

@ Jim Yep! it's about the offline a lot more than the online for local business imho But giving memebers of your community recognition online is helpful Also it would depends on the movies they played in the theatre - I might set up a wiki or discussion forum for movie buffs - Arié Moyal

The first thing i would say to someone who came to me with 50k burning a hole in their pocket would be "Why?" - Arié Moyal

lol @Arie. I would assume because they want to turn that $$ into more sales. - mark williams

Teaming up with local businesses to offer a complete "experience" is a good idea. - Joe Kikta

@ Joe & @ Jim Indeed it's all about co-petition - Arié Moyal

that's definitely the new trend, @Joe..."experience marketing". I think social media is an excellent tool...especially a blog....is a good way of sharing the experience with others vicariously. - mark williams

In many cases, folks like to see quick results as well as have an opportunity to tell their story. A blog is a great low-cost way to be able to express yourself and your business in more than 140 characters plus in anchors nicely to your existing website. - Tanya McGinnity

@ mark Sure but I'd ask them why they think spending 50k on online activities is the best - Arié Moyal

@ mark Not everyone is a good blogger - Arié Moyal

be sure to allow a "subscribe to this blog via email" option... best option to build a strong DB of passionate local folks. Spend some of that money to host special night (i.e. show Halloween on Halloween). - Jim Storer

@Arie..nice! I like that word--co-petition. - mark williams

side note: i miss the small, local movie theaters... - Jim Storer

@Arie @Jim Participating in the local Chamber too, as a part. @Mark Agree. The wiki idea not a bad one either - Joe Kikta

excellent suggestion on local Chamber and I like to remind folks that *email* is a social media tool too. - mark williams

tanya - i agree a blog is a good anchor for other socmed efforts (i.e. twitter, youtube, etc) - Jim Storer

so emailing your other Chamber members with your sales/specials or industry insights is a way of being social locally too. - mark williams

@ Jim Great to build a DB yes but like Bryan said at SMB15 in Boston Don't use that list in the wrong way - Arié Moyal

@Mark Not sure I agree with email as Social Media... Unless it's a two-way discussion, not Social Media - Joe Kikta

adding social media buttons/widgets to your website is not a bad idea - Arié Moyal

@arie - always be careful with how you use your house list... always. with blog subscribers, you can create a new post that achieves your objective (announce an upcoming event, etc.) and you're not spamming them. - Jim Storer

Sure Joe but there are ways of inviting that discussion Especially if you write the e-mail in a way that invites them to share - Arié Moyal

SMB15... how do you remember that? i barely remember 11/29 - Jim Storer

Haha I have a long unforgiving memory and there was a handout :P - Arié Moyal

email = social media? i think it's a semantic discussion. email can support social, but agree it's not really what I think of when someone says socmed. - Jim Storer

No it's not necessarily SM but it's an engagement tool - Arié Moyal

@Joe...yes, many businesses use email as a broadcast mechanism, which is wrong imo. I answer all my emails people send to me, so I think the core concept of SoMe is that a business should act like a person. - mark williams

@Jim You beat me to it. Well said. Can support, but not social by nature - Joe Kikta

@Mark I guess it is all in how you utilize it. Twitter is not really Social Media for some either - Joe Kikta

@Joe Check me out I'm using SM See? This is my latest blogpost and this is my achievement - Look at me I'm tweeting - I need 100 more followers - ooh lloky I'm social - Arié Moyal

Email can be a great way to showcase a community member, supplier, contest winner so that extends it from just being a mechanism to only speak about yourself. I do agree it doesn't lend itself to being very social, but it can show personality more so than what I usually see done by most businesses. - Tanya McGinnity

yep @Joe. Without getting too deep into the semantic discussion, I consider my email address a more personal access to ME, socially. An email is a direct conversation. (or could be) But maybe my definition of 'social' is too broad. - mark williams

anyway...I have to go be social with a few workmates in 12 minutes...aka "a meeting". nice chatting with everyone and will see you next week! - mark williams

CmtyChat: mark williams

Q2: October 30, 2009: What about Facebook Fan Pages or Groups as a platform for small businesses? How would you recommend a small business engage on FB...or would you?

October 30, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

So far, it seems like for small biz it can be hard to get enough Fans to generate a significant interractions on FB. And most are using it as a broadcast tool anyway. - Beth Brodovsky

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@Beth ironic isn't it? Since FB allows one to be more personal than Twitter, imo. - mark williams

@Beth...do you have a FB Group or Fan Page set up for your biz? - mark williams

@Mark Yes and No. There are opportunities to share more personal content, but how many take advantage? How many just play games and take quizzes? - Joe Kikta

good q, @Joe. Of the people I know, MOST don't take quizzes or play games. - mark williams

Well I dont think there's any harm in putting social media buttons on your website - if you have a website - Arié Moyal

Of the 150 or so FB friends I have, gamers and quiz takers represent maybe 20% of my friends. But that could be representative of my friends, and not FB in general. How about your friends? - mark williams

It depends on your demographic - Some people will - the point with facebook is that a lot of the internet connected world is on there - Arié Moyal

Although I've had interesting conversations with people on FB, I've had more on Twitter. I think it's because it's more public and searchable. Easier to target people with similar interests - Joe Kikta

@Tanya....loved your idea about promotions (and discount codes) on Twitter...does that lend itself to FB as well, or would you expect a smaller return on FB? - mark williams

@Joe...you bring up a good point...it seems to me that there are either Twitter people or Facebook people...but only a relatively few use both platforms equally. Do you find that to be true? - mark williams

Joe i thik the idea with facebook is to drive website traffic to facebook so you can interact with them and they can interact with each other - Arié Moyal

There is defintely an easier *in* on twitter - It's easier to listen there - Arié Moyal

Let me also mention that Twitter is more Open. By that, I mean that people are more open to friending/sharing with new people. - Joe Kikta

The ties are a lot looser on twitter than on facebook - part of that is the reciprocity requirement on FB - Arié Moyal

@mark - I agree with the Twitter people / FB people distinction. My FB group is mainly comprised of family / non tech folks whereas Twitter is a much tech savvier crew. I'm sure I might be generalizing here but this is just my experience. - Tanya McGinnity

@Mark I think most people have a strong preference one way or the other - Joe Kikta

@ Mark Re: return on fb - I'd say the return on FB is probably larger since there are more people there - but it can;t hurt to run the same promo on both and use different codes - Arié Moyal

so maybe Twitter is good for introducing yourself to new customers, and FB is better at deepening relationships with existing one?s Is that a fair suggestion for small businesses? - mark williams

twitter can't go mainstream until it's easier to "get" I also think the openness freaks people out - Arié Moyal

@Arie I think it depends on your product or service and your brand name. I think it's easier to attract followers on Twitter than Fans (that pay attention) on FB. - Joe Kikta

I think location has much to do with this as well. If you are a local business, then starting with building connections with the local Twitterites is quite important as a first step. I think a FB fan page comes after you've built a local following- otherwise it's pretty much just a group of you, your mom and a handful of folks who like you or your business and care enough to support you. - Tanya McGinnity

@Tanya...that's really good advice, imo. - mark williams

feel free to keep this discussion going...and...just posted Q3. :-) - mark williams

Joe it defintely depends - For some businesses I'd stay away from SM :) - Arié Moyal

@ Tanya I think you can encourage people to become fans via your website but there is no question that the offline is just as important as the online if not more - Arié Moyal

@Tanya Well said. @Arie I'm not saying to stay away! Be smart though :) - Joe Kikta

Hi everybody. I just interviewed a local company for a story I'm writing for EContent magazine and they shared a great tactic they use on Facebook. They call it "Facebook Friday's." The store manager posts a new product or item they 'd like to get more sales on every Monday and people discuss it all week. they give it away on Fridays. Drives monster sales for that product. - Angela

@ Angela Sounds interesting! - Arié Moyal

@Angela That's really cool. I'm sure people look forward to this and tell their friends who might not know about this shop. - Tanya McGinnity

Yes @Tanya and @Arie. I spent some time observing the process before deciding to write about it and it works big time. the customers comment ad naseum about these products. - Angela

So it would appear that SM works well for companies with a diverse or constantly evolving product offering and those that feed hungry SMites - Any other examples? - Arié Moyal

Now I suspect it would also depend on the business and the type of products. For instance, if the products are embarrassing or private, that company may not have much luck on FB. - Angela

I've seen flickr used exceptionally by a local cupcake shop. When users search for photos of creative cupcakes, hers show up and they truly show off how creative she is. - Tanya McGinnity

Love that @Tanya! Can you send me a link? - Angela

@ Tanya did you see the QR code cupcakes @clever_cupcakes made? The QR code directs you to her website Too cool :) - Arié Moyal

http://www.flickr.com/photos... This is just a small set of photos that had created a lot of chatter in the community - both local and international (so much that someone in Bahrain is copying her style!) - Tanya McGinnity

CmtyChat: mark williams

RANDOM: October 30, 2009: Hello, and welcome to Community Chat! I’m Mark Williams, a senior community manager at LiveWorld and I’m filling in for Bryan Person today. Please take moment to introduce yourself, and suggest topics for future #CmtyChat discussions.

October 30, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

I'm still learning how to use the interface, so those deleted comments you might see are mine, btw! - mark williams

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Hi Mark! I'm Arié, the community manager for babyTEL, a VoIP company here in Montreal - Arié Moyal

Doing OK so far, Mark! - Bryan Person

nice to meet you Arie! - mark williams

I'm Beth and I own a small business (membership marketing) & spend significant time every day using social media, but I train, speak and consult on it so I doubt I am the norm. - Beth Brodovsky

haha...Beth...are ANY of us in here the norm? :-) - mark williams

Its always hard as zealots to remember where others are. - Beth Brodovsky

I'd like to throw a few stats out from the US Small Business Administration to help frame today's discussion. - mark williams

99% of all US businesses are considered small business=less than 500 employees - mark williams

of those...80% are single proprietors with NO employees - mark williams

I'm Tanya... I'm a newly unemployed Community Manager and I'd love to have a discussion at some point on how communities have helped out of work CM's get back on their feet again. I'm experiencing some great community love currently and would love to see if others have had this experience. - Tanya McGinnity

of the remaining, 66% have fewer than 10 employees...80% have fewer than 20. - mark williams

That doesn't surprise me. - Beth Brodovsky

25% of these businesses have revenue of less than $100K per year. and 75% have revenue of $500K per year. - mark williams

So, lots of solopreneurs. - Bryan Person

yes, Bryan...or few hands, doing much work. - mark williams

and many working from home (SOHO's)? - Tanya McGinnity

@Beth Re:Norms My boss doesn`t ge how much I use social media (although he hired me because I knew the space LOL) - Arié Moyal

Really, there are small businesses and microbusinesses - Beth Brodovsky

@Arie - luckily for me, I am the boss. - Beth Brodovsky

Joe Kikta, in Cincinnati, currently on the hunt for a marketing job, preferably involving Social Media. - Joe Kikta

Tanya, good topic for for future discussion...was at a seminar yesterday with a sociologist who noted that 'loose ties' (like community) are the ones who help most for finding jobs. - mark williams

Q1 is up! - Bryan Person

@ Mark Definitely @ Tanya Check your DMs ;) - Arié Moyal

Sorry I was late to the party everyone. Hope to see you next week. - Angela

CmtyChat: mark williams

Q1: October 30, 2009: Given the lack of people power available to most small businesses, do you think a small business MUST be adopting Twitter as a connecting resource?

October 30, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

I don't think that *any* business MUST necessarily adopt Twitter. Depends on the business and its goals. - Bryan Person

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@Bryan what types of small biz would you recommend using Twitter? - mark williams

I think small retail businesses can benefit by utilizing twitter for promotional use - lizGreaux

Just putting it out there - Would a funeral home have a place on Twitter? (Not sure why that popped into my head!) Are there some businesses/ areas that might not be best for Twitter? - Tanya McGinnity

I agree with Brian, Twitter isn't for everyone - Arié Moyal

how so, @lizGreaux? - mark williams

@Mark: Not trying to avoid the question, but it would be a business whose customers are/potentially are on Twitter. - Bryan Person

In small biz I have seen not wanting to do anything that doesn't give an immediate ROI and, on the other side "networking" to the point of distraction. - Beth Brodovsky

An example: @CoffeeGroundz, a small coffee shop in downtown Houston. They make good use of Twitter--even allow people to send in their orders that way. - Bryan Person

@Mark, exclusive offers, sales, contests. I personally think that for the mom or pop business trying to compete with the giants, this type of platform is a no expense way to advertise - lizGreaux

Coffeegroundz is an awesome example! - Arié Moyal

liz You can't use twitter like direct marketing though - Arié Moyal

I don't mean in the true meaning of direct marketing, I believe it can be done - lizGreaux

I think its hard to benefit from anything if you haven't thought about your audience and what communicating in a certain medium has to offer them. The goal isn't to get your customers to use social media, its to get your customers to use you. - Beth Brodovsky

I think the small business owner has to enjoy connecting with their customers and engaging in the community first before they just open an account to broadcast their message. It does take a level of personality and understanding your brand that some small biz owners might not have in their skill set. - Tanya McGinnity

@Bryan...that makes me wonder...is there a 'type' of person who uses twitter? I mean, we're all human on Twitter (I think) so aren't we all customers of *something*? - mark williams

@Mark: A year ago you might have said it was the tech-savvy person primarily on Twitter, but now I think it's gone mainstream. - Bryan Person

@Bryan, I agree, I think it is the latest bandwagon that everyone seems to be hopping on - lizGreaux

@Mark That's a good question. Is there a profile? @Bryan I agree, somewhat. Still, tech-savvy more likely to stay - Joe Kikta

broadly speaking....how many hours a day would it take for a small business to develop a following on Twitter in order to make promotions worthwhile? - mark williams

In many cases, twitter / social media tools seem overwhelming to many folks and they think they have to push out a zillion messages rather than the quality/ tone of what they're saying. - Tanya McGinnity

I think it depends on a number of things, type of business, target audience, level of comfort, etc - lizGreaux

@Tanya Agree. Theme and tone are getting lost - Beth Brodovsky

@Mark: As you get started, 20 minutes a day would probably do. As a business gains more followers and receives more @ messages, that likely scales up. - Bryan Person

I've personally only had one promotion on twitter that caught my eye...a pizza company here in SJ. But I forget how we connected...I think they followed me because of my address in my profile. And they were giving away free pizza. :-) - mark williams

I also think many are "pushing" too much instead of starting conversations - Joe Kikta

@Joe I agree...but doesn't it come back to time available? It take awhile to have conversation...and there isn't always a payoff for it. - mark williams

Re: Mainstream Well look at all the people who joined to follow Oprah They're not follwoing anyone else and she's barely tweeting - Arié Moyal

Q2 is now up...following the same theme concerning Facebook for small businesses. - mark williams

@KojiBBQ - http://twitter.com/kogiBBQ - is very popular on Twitter. It's based in LA and tweets out where/when it's truck will be stopping. By accounts I've seen, it's a raging success. Long lines on the streets! - Bryan Person

Personally as a CM I'm still nervous that I'm using twitter wrong for the company :S - Arié Moyal

I think goiveaways are a great way to get people to know who you are Everyone likes giveaways - Arié Moyal

I remember my days working in a small retail crafting store and I'd sit behind the counter reading the Enquirer or dusting shelves. Imagine if I was connecting with customers, informing people about our specials, answering questions and showcasing crafts made by our customers? - Tanya McGinnity

@Arie - Great point re: giveaways / discounts - Tanya McGinnity

@ Bryan It would appear food and social media go hand in hand - Arié Moyal

@Mark True, time is definitely a concern, but you can ramp it up slowly and get things to the point where you get a lot of bang for your buck. You need to be patient and not expect overnight success. - Joe Kikta

agreed, @Arie...lets go out for lunch! lol - mark williams

@ Tanya Thanks - Reminds me: Discount codes are a great way of tracking ROI :) - Arié Moyal

@ mark When I get to SoCal I'll look you up Haha - Arié Moyal

Q2: October 30, 2009: What about Facebook Fan Pages or Groups as a platform for small businesses? How would you recommend a small business engage on FB...or would you? - mark williams

oops...posted q2 in the wrong place...sorry! - mark williams

Tanya makes a great point If you have downtime use it as your SM time I know people who have done a lot of business from SM - O got my job because of my use of SM - Arié Moyal

This may not be popular but I don't want to say that ANY one platform is a must. I just don't see things that way. That's an answer they need to determine based on goals. - Angela

CmtyChat: Bryan Person

WRAPUP: October 23, 2009: We've just about come to the end of our appointed hour. A quieter conversation this week, but still plenty of good nuggets. Many thanks to Connie Bensen for kickstarting the discussion and to *you* for participating! See you next week starting at 1:00pm EDT.

October 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

@Bryan @Connie, thanks very much for hosting. - Lou Ordorica

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Thanks @Bryan @Connie for hosting.. And thanks everyone for the illuminating chat. I always come away from these discussions with some great takeaways. - Tanya McGinnity

@ Sue we had snow yesterday All that was left was ice on my strairs though - Arié Moyal

@Tanya: Glad to hear it! - Bryan Person

Thanks to Connie & Bryan - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Connie Bensen

Q1: October 23, 2009 - Is an organization's culture a factor in how successful their ability to adopt social media & participate is? Does there need to be a culture shift? Who should lead it?

October 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

I think so. If they don't understand social media, they won't get that adoption of same is important. - Star Aasved

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Leaders need to get it, too. They have to understand pros/cons, speak to the organization's need to hear and participate in conversation about the brand/company. - Star Aasved

I think a culture shift will need to happen if the organization is used to being closed or if they are very concerned with control. As far as leading it, I think those that are passionate and who 'get' social should be at the helm, regardless of title, if they can prove their chops (ie: already active with a community/ don't spam/ understand how social fits within a strategy). - Tanya McGinnity

I think the higher the buy-in comes from the better. That said if you force community management on someone who doesn't want the job the results are sure to be less than optimal. - Arié Moyal

If you need to shift culture in order to be successful, you may be setting yourself up for failure. - Robert Swanwick

The culture needs to shift from "Don;t tell anyone what we're doing and push product" to "be transparent and engage" - Arié Moyal

@ Robert Disagree That's like saying getting people to buy wordprocessors in the 80s was impossible if the culture needed shifting - Arié Moyal

Arié, agreed. And that's not a huge shift, IMO -- again, it's based on understanding what social media can do for the organization. - Star Aasved

Social Media can appeal to different cultures in different ways: listening, sharing, measuring, etc... - Robert Swanwick

Some companies don;t need SM for community management They do just as well if not better with direct marketing - Arié Moyal

With the team I work with, they have expressed that they get overwhelmed because the term social media sounds so vast to them. It's really important like Sue mentioned to set realistic goals. - Tanya McGinnity

@Arie: Sounds like the choice of social media depends on the culture of the community? The type of buyer/end user you're trying to appeal to. - Bryan Person

@ Bryan That and the product Some products just sell better offline - Arié Moyal

@Arie: Of course. Plus, most word of mouth happens offline. The social media work is all for a small piece of the total pie. - Bryan Person

@Arie, @Star Leadership by example is a very powerful way to get people off the fence and contributing. A little peer pressure never hurts, either. - Lou Ordorica

What? Communication? :) - Connie Bensen

@Sue I have started a social media saturation count down clock. People are getting impatient to get past the hype, and see real change to their day-to-day businesses. - Lou Ordorica

People are still saying there is no money in SM - I disagree, it's just that there is no direct marketing in SM. Well there is, it's just SPAM - Arié Moyal

But I know that my friend Claire who is the Director of the International Climate Change Programme at WWF started tweeting on her own before she was able to get them to adopt a more SM approach - Arié Moyal

Lou, good point though I think it's not just day-to-day, but over the longer haul that is really of benefit to business if we are looking at the big picture. - Star Aasved

@ Bryan A lot of people forget that social media is a tool for conversation not a magic pill - Arié Moyal

Back to the culture shift. I think that it can be hard for some companies to want to speak with their customers because they are afraid of the repercussions. They don't want to get in trouble with the boss and they're not used to being told that it's OK for them to be open (within limits) - Tanya McGinnity

@Tanya, I think fears can be curtailed with clearly communicating social discourse guidelines and training (rule #1: don't get fired). There will always be corner cases, though. - Lou Ordorica

I don't think you can get much backlash from engaging unless you or the company have been "asking for it" - Arié Moyal

I think that for some, being social online may have been spoiled by having been roughed up in forums where there may not have been a community manager. Just speaking in terms of one staffer who had a bad experience on a film forum. - Tanya McGinnity

@ Tanya Fair enough but then that person may not be suited to a CM role - Arié Moyal

Q4 up! - Bryan Person

@Arie I'm not saying the person is to be a CM, I'm referring to folks who do SM in our org. If they can't handle forum abuse then they are certainly not cut out for the CM role :) - Tanya McGinnity

@ Tanya I guess I'm doing it all so for me it falls under CM - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Bryan Person

Q5: October 23, 2009: Let's discuss Thomas Knoll's comment: "It seems everyone agrees that CMs should create goals. But, not many examples of goals/measurements people use. Is it because they are difficult to communicate? Or because no one really measures? Too much voodoo?"

October 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Maybe it's just me but there seems to be a lack of books/ training / information on measurement in general specifically for CM's. Someone want to write a book on the topic?! - Tanya McGinnity

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The measues are clear to me: Responses, relationships, traffic, conversions What's tough is showing the link between SM efforts and the last two - Arié Moyal

Also Lou just gave us a whole whack of measures on Q4 (Thanks Lou) - Arié Moyal

@Arie, You bet - glad you found these useful. - Lou Ordorica

CmtyChat: Bryan Person

Q4: October 23, 2009 (I think Connie is handling an unexpected appt, so I'll jump in). Let's talk tools with this question. Which ones, specifically, are you using to track activity/engagement/etc.?

October 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

And if it's all in an Excel spreadsheet, no judgment there. You wouldn't be alone! - Bryan Person

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I'll start. For most of our communities we have proprietary tool which tracks activity/enagement/etc. and spits out reports in Excel that we can slice and dice. - Bryan Person

Google Analytics, Peoplebrowsr - Arié Moyal

I like the gold star system that I have going on.. Simple bristleboard and glitter with a gold star everytime I have a successful engagement with a member of our community.. Just kidding.I'm in a space where traffic to our site is of primo importance (as it relates to sales) so web analytics tools are my friends in this respect. As for interactions that help me to push the 'personal'... more... - Tanya McGinnity

For webinars, I use email opens, click-thrus on invites, online registrations, attendance, and attention meters during the event. Also, I measure clicks on call to actions such as sign ups and promotions. - Lou Ordorica

For online communities, I use standard activity measurement - registrations, time spent on the site, return visits, forums visited, posts, click thrus on banners. - Lou Ordorica

For conferences, it's all about sign ups and attendees, number of paid sponsorships, and participant's ratings and reviews of the speakers and sessions. - Lou Ordorica

@ Lou yes but which tools are you using to count those things ? - Arié Moyal

Thanks for that @Lou. These are all very valuable points and clearly demonstrate what we should be looking for. - Tanya McGinnity

@Arie, Tools - WebEx, Citrix, Google Analytics, Telligent, Webtrends, SurveyGizmo, and tools developed in-house. - Lou Ordorica

Just got off client call and can add one thought here - met CEO of @hubspot on Panel yesterday - their tools look great. Look at their website for free 'grader' tools - sounds like a good measurement system - Mark Sylvester

@mark some are but how do they relate to community engagement? - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Connie Bensen

Q3: October 23, 2009 Are you measuring your efforts? And does this get taken into account in the bigger picture?

October 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Connie: I think measurement *has* to be taken into account. Otherwise, how do you know if you're succeeding? - Bryan Person

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I have this convo all the time. I think most people skip the goals portion...so they don't even know what to measure. - Scott Bishop

The rub is, what to measure? Common sense says starts with agreed-upon goals and working backwards, but in many cases your sponsor doesn't have a clear picture themselves. - Lou Ordorica

Wondering what measurements today's participants find most valuable - which indicate social is working for the organization? - Star Aasved

@Scott, Yep. This is a HUGE risk, because if you can't show the impact you are having, guess who will be on the short list come layoff-time? - Lou Ordorica

@Scott: The 2009 Tribalization of Business came out recently, and like last year, not measuring activities that track to business goals was again a problem in several communities. - Bryan Person

my community isn't on a platform - Connie Bensen

I measure much around the success stories that the community has in interacting with our website. When I hear that I've solved a problem or helped someone out, that's golden... but it might not be as golden in terms of value to the 'higher ups' - Tanya McGinnity

@ Lou If they don't then its your job to set them How else do you know,as Bryan said, if you're succeeding - Arié Moyal

sorry hit enter too quick! - and I'm able to gather stat's. Last March I provided adv training to 30% of our customer base & they all upgraded. There is a direct ROI to that - Connie Bensen

My issue with goal setting is putting numbers on organic growth - Arié Moyal

@Bryan I find that a big problem for companies. They don't know what to measure or even if they're measuring they can't answer why. Start with the goal and reverse engineer the how. Then you can know exactly what to measure. - Scott Bishop

Lou - I agree that the goals need to be set. People shouldn't be engaged without a strategy. - Connie Bensen

@Arie, the goals don't need to revenue all the time. Can be...we want x of new site clicks, or to come to an event...etc - Scott Bishop

@Scott I agree - Start with the Strategy - which determines the goals - which shows what to measure. Then choose what % change you want. (Benchmark & get busy). The tactical is also driven by the goals & ultimately the strategy. - Connie Bensen

Bottom line is if SM is not leading to increased sales you're wasting your time - No? I mean you have to benchmark it before you start so you can compare. Google Analytics can tell you where traffic is coming from and you can use promo codes but accept that not everyone will use them even if you are driving them there - Arié Moyal

Tanya, I've measured success stories for some communities as well and agree on the value. It's difficult to determine, though, what impact those have on the organization. - Star Aasved

At UGCX this week the CEO of NPR said Nothing might work, so try everything She's done a great job with their community - Arié Moyal

@Arie: Don't agree that it's always ultimately about increased sales. We have a client whose primary goal is education, not sales. - Bryan Person

@Connie, so right...well stated - Scott Bishop

@Sue as someone hired to get CM started I can tell you that the focus is first to set up the infrastructure and then start engaging The company will want to see $$$$$ That's what they're they're for - Arié Moyal

Your can goals can be anything...not always sales. But you need goals, regardless of what they are. Otherwise you're just sending tweets and facebook posts for fun - Scott Bishop

@ Bryan Fair enough but what's point of educating people for them? - Arié Moyal

For many businesses, the goal of customer satisfaction in terms of responsiveness may not be a measurable stat in the short term, but there is long term value in customer loyalty. - Star Aasved

@ Star There is no doubt that SM is a long term strategy Thanks for confirming :) - Arié Moyal

It seems everyone agrees that CMs should create goals. But, not many examples of goals/measurements people use. Is it because they are difficult to communicate? Or because no one really measures? Too much voodoo? - Thomas Knoll

The measues are clear to me: Responses, relationships, traffic, conversions What's tough is showing the link between SM efforts and the last two - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Connie Bensen

Hi! Thanks for joining us for CmtyChat this Friday. Feel free to introduce yourselves here, The topic I've chosen is Culture shift required. Let's talk about the internal culture required for comm mgrs to be successful.

October 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Hey there, Connie. Thanks for hosting! Looking forward to the conversation. - Bryan Person

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Hello Rob Swanwick. Founder of Speaker Interactive and twebevent. Currently working on a drupal platform to support Chat communities (mostly Twitter chat) - Robert Swanwick

Hey Connie! Looking forward to an interesting chat :) - Arié Moyal

Hi Connie. Am a community manager for LiveWorld, looking forward to today's discussion. - Star Aasved

As to internal culture, I think one of the primary considerations is an understanding of social/community. - Star Aasved

I'd suggest that clear communication internally around the role of community managers is important. - Bryan Person

Hi Sue & Star - nice to meet you! Sue, I so appreciate your enthusiasm on Twitter! - Connie Bensen

Add to that, an understanding of the brand/company's business goals. What are you working toward? - Bryan Person

Hi Connie. Great to see you leading this session! - Tanya McGinnity

@ Tanya Hey! :) - Arié Moyal

Hi @Arié - Tanya McGinnity

Hi Connie, nice to see you here. - Lou Ordorica

hieeeeeee! - Thomas Knoll

CmtyChat: Connie Bensen

Q2: October 23, 2009 - Do you think that organizations realize the extent that community people can contribute to the biz obj's? What do you do within yours to push that envelope?

October 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

I believe some parts of an organization can see how community contributes - those people who understand how reaching a broader audience can be of benefit. To push, it's a matter of getting one's feet wet, I think, getting involved in listening, hearing what is said and based upon those results determining next moves. - Star Aasved

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I think a good question to add to this is whether community managers do enough to provide the business results gained from community participation. I personally don't feel confident enough in this area and could use some tools, tips, training. - Tanya McGinnity

I'm constantly educating my boss about how to use social media but he hired me specifically for community management so I guess I'm lucky in that way - Arié Moyal

Tanya, when it comes to tools I find a weakness -- it's not easy to measure concrete results based on traditional metrics, IMO. - Star Aasved

Traditional metrics still work - not follower/fan/member #s but responses, conversions, traffic etc - Arié Moyal

They work to some extent, but can't measure long term benefit/gain, IMO. - Star Aasved

Tanya, that's a really good point - are you provided with enough training/tools to do your job well? - Connie Bensen

I put up a question on measurement - and I need to join a call in 12 min's - but I'll be multitasking - Connie Bensen

I think that one challenge is that traditional business expects #'s on a quarterly basis. That's about the time that one is just starting to see progress in social media - Connie Bensen

@Tanya @Star @Arie, it's relatively easy to measure activity of your community, but attributing this to key performance indicators (downloads, try-n-buys, paid subscriptions, new business) is what separates men from boys, women from the girls. :) - Lou Ordorica

@ Lou How do *you* do it? ;) - Arié Moyal

@Lou - yes, and a bit sticky from my perspective. - Star Aasved

Rachel Happe has a great preso on slideshare re: growth of online communities let me find it - Arié Moyal

I think that you need to build in the 'how did you hear about us' and collect that info in surveys - Connie Bensen

@Connie - I'm from a digital marketing background with years of agency experience who transitioned over to a few community management positions.. so I'd say I'm self taught. But then again, I guess that's how many of us got our start ') As far as support, I think I would like more integration with internal teams to see how we can all effectively work together. Might be interesting to examine any CM certification if that is indeed something out there (given the position is still somewhat new to many orgs) - Tanya McGinnity

Here you go: http://www.slideshare.net/rhappe... Great lifecycle graphs too SM is definitely a longterm strategy which is funny given its immediacy - Arié Moyal

@Arie, I've had success starting small, taking an existing program with clearly identified costs and outcomes (example, producing a product launch video), then applying social media to the same problem (a user generated video contest) and comparing and contrasting the two. - Lou Ordorica

@Connie I agree re: surveys having a great degree of importance in helping a CM - Tanya McGinnity

@Tanya, the community manager is rapidly becoming a fixture in many organizations, I completely agree a professional organization to certify individuals in the art and science is needed. This will give assurance to prospective employers, and help individuals with their careers, tool. - Lou Ordorica

@Connie Could you start an online degree program? :) - Tanya McGinnity

@ Lou yo can;t say that the results are going to be exactly related to how if you don't control for externalities and not everyone has the luxury of doing both What do they do? - Arié Moyal

@ Connie @ Tanya Surveys are great but not everyone will fill them out unless they're super short - Arié Moyal

@Tanya @Connie Are you interested in forming an professional CM organization? I am game! :) - Lou Ordorica

@Sue Yep -- I suggest to @Tanya and @Connie we should take the bull by the horns and form the organization. Grassroots, for the win! - Lou Ordorica

@Arie, I don't understand your question. Can you clarify please? - Lou Ordorica

FYI there is a professional CM organization: http://community-roundtable.com/ - Thomas Knoll

@ Lous Sounds good to me! But do we have proven results yet? How do you allow for a constantly changing landscape? - Arié Moyal

@Arie Good point re: length of survey. I would never suggest a rotten experience by having someone sit through 33 boring questions - Tanya McGinnity

@ Lou How do people who can only run one scenario show their impact? - Arié Moyal

@Thomas, Yep the CR is a cool organization, but I'm thinking along the lines of formal accreditation, a title you can attache to your resume, like project managers use PMP. - Lou Ordorica

@Arie Hunh? I am not understanding your questions. - Lou Ordorica

@ Thomas The CR is awesome we love Jim & Rachel bt are they certifying people? - Arié Moyal

@Lou As a former Project Manager , I like the analogy with the PMP - Tanya McGinnity

What's cool about CM is that soon journalists will all have to become CMs so the CM community will grow exponentially - Arié Moyal

@ Lou Never mind LOL - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Bryan Person

RANDOM: October 23, 2009 - Here's the thread where you can introduce yourselves and your community, and suggest questions for the wider group. Anything else goes, too!

October 23, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Checking in with my 3 keywords this week: YouTube video, travel, birthdays - Bryan Person

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we didn't get to talk at BWE! - Connie Bensen

keywords for today are poptech, biztechday, embed - Robert Swanwick

@thescottbishop here. Great to see everyone here - Scott Bishop

My three: Soup, snow, shabbath :)) - Arié Moyal

@Connie: I know! At least we said hello for 5 minutes. - Bryan Person

keywords for today : finish "Trust Agents" :) - Tanya McGinnity

I think we need to get the energy level up here. Have you all done your jumping jacks today? Eaten your Wheaties? - Bryan Person

WOO!!! I'm as energetic as Gary V. Thanks for that push @Bryan :) - Tanya McGinnity

Now I'm ready for a CM firewalk.. Who's with me? - Tanya McGinnity

@ Tanya Me! - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

THANK YOU: October 2, 2009 - That about wraps it up for today. Thanks so much for everyone that participated today! Very new topic and service, so it's definitely great to get numerous perspectives. Have a great Friday!

October 2, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

And you! ;) Thanks all - Lilian Mahoukou

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Thanks Sonny! - Arié Moyal

Thanks Sonny and Bryan, enjoyed the chat today. - Lou Ordorica

Thanks Sonny, Bryan and the rest of you who joined in today. Enjoyed today discussions a lot. - Patricia Ooi

I got pulled away. Thanks from me as well. - Michelle

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

Q5: October 2, 2009 - A question to our CmtyChatters: What topics or ideas in the world of community management do you want Bryan and I to cover in future chats? We're always looking to provide value to everyone that comes here, so feel free to share any topics that would be helpful to the cmty!

October 2, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Bryan Person liked this

I think this was good. There is a deeper issue at stake which has to do with the dance between 'the social web' and what makes for social responsibility. - Leanne O'Shea

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@Bryan, the business side of communities -- make money, save money. Community managers need a way to show they are contributing to profits or revenues, or find themselves on the short list come layoff time. - Lou Ordorica

@Lou Are you suggesting a ROI discussion? - Joe Kikta

I like Lou's idea But is talking about the value of lurkers interesting too? - Arié Moyal

@Joe Yes indeed! - Lou Ordorica

Maybe only of limited interest, but maybe something about building a community when you _aren't_ a brand? Something for us hobbyists? - Michelle

@Sue: A whole discussion around content moderation ... that's certainly something that can be arranged :) - Bryan Person

Interesting ideas! Love the suggestions. We'll definitely be putting these topics onto our list. - Sonny Gill

Have you talk about bloggers as community managers aka Kumbaya bloggers? - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

Q4: October 2, 2009 - Are co's trying to PUSH the point of community engagement/monitoring too much? Sidewiki and Seth Godin's Brands in Public are doing similar forms of pushing products/services towards companies and brands. What's that say to the CMs and Social Media folks out there?

October 2, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

More info on Seth's venture: http://moblogsmoproblems.blogspot.com/2009... - Sonny Gill

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If enough of your customer and buyers are talking about your brand, then of course you want to listen and participate in that conversation. Right now, it's a novelty, and entrepreneurs see the opportunity to make a buck and do this without asking. I think it will become a standard form of public relations for companies eventually. - Lou Ordorica

Can't force a community. It has to develop somewhat naturally. - David Spinks

@Lou - it is a bit of a novelty but something that companies should be doing already. Understandably, they all don't get it and when big names push services like these, those co's who don't monitor/engage, will take notice. That's where Seth and Google realized their play. - Sonny Gill

No but you can force participation. Already know of a lot of people who have installed this, not because they want to, but because they need to monitor what is happening on their own sites. - Leanne O'Shea

@Leanne - right, they've certainly forced the need to participate. Is it necessary given the other tools and avenues we have and are trying to educate companies on? Maybe not. But opportunities for the big boys to at least try. - Sonny Gill

It shows the very organic side of communities growth and the impossibility to control or manipulate conversations online - Lilian Mahoukou

@DavidSpinks Can't agree more It's like making friends You can't make friends just because you want to You have to work at it and let the other party see benefits to engaging - Arié Moyal

@Leanne: Right. At this point, it's an uncomfortable new reality for businesses. To be prudent, you really do need to download Sidewiki and start monitoring. - Bryan Person

Lilian: Good point re: You can't always be in control of what is being said about you/your brand - Arié Moyal

Just as an aside, there is another company with exactly the same tool - ReFrame It - There product is now dead thanks to Google, and whether or not you like the tool, there's is actually a better product. More privacy options for a start. - Leanne O'Shea

@Sonny Good point! These days, brand monitoring is increasingly difficult, lots of conversations scattered across different platforms. I'm guessing it might be better for Google to try to find a way to "aggregate" these conversations into something useful to their algorithm rather than creating yet another platform for community engagement. - Patricia Ooi

@Leanne: I saw someone mention ReFrame It the other day. I can't imagine it's going to get any attention now. - Bryan Person

No. And even though I don't like the concept, theirs was a better product. Good example of bigger not meaning better. And sad for them. They've had the product on the market for 12 months - Leanne O'Shea

Last Q of the day - Q5 - is up! - Bryan Person

@Leanne: Maybe Google will buy them? - Bryan Person

@BryanPerson Not a bad idea: Google buying ReFrameIt - Arié Moyal

Why would they waste the money. They've done it, they have the user base and will introduce the other aspects themselves. - Leanne O'Shea

Leanne: You could say the same for buying YouTube though - Arié Moyal

@leanne buyouts make sense when buying is cheaper than developing certain features. As Arie points out. My example would be FB buying FF. - Scott Moore

Maybe, but I don't think ReFrame It has the user base and the technology is not that complex. - Leanne O'Shea

I suppose it depends how much Google offers ReFrameIt and if the developers get to keep their jobs - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

Q1: October 2, 2009 - Kicking things off...Do you see Google's Sidewiki helping evolve community engagement for website publishers? Pros and cons?

October 2, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

It's early days still, but I think Sidewiki monitoring and (potential) engagement is at least something that community practitioners have to be paying attention to. - Bryan Person

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I think it will help during the development phase, but for day-to-day activities it could be a huge distraction. - Lou Ordorica

One con right off the bat: No easy way to monitor when your company/brand/etc is mentioned on a Sidewiki. You have to do it manually by going and checking all the pages. Kind of a pain. - Bryan Person

That will change very soon, though, as Sidewiki has an API that companies like Radian6 can use. - Bryan Person

Could we talk about reaching the "radical transparency" level ? If yes, it's a good point for truly great and respectful brands - Lilian Mahoukou

Who will own the conversation? Do my comments belong to me, or Google? - Lou Ordorica

@Bryan Agree about your comment about "No easy way to monitor". Plus, did I read it correctly that site owners have no control over the comments? No way to delete comments? What about spam? - Patricia Ooi

@Sue - right. I think it's more so a feature that Google is trying to leverage as their own expert community vs. giving publishers a chance to connect w/a different community. - Sonny Gill

Imagine a product manager who lovingly crafts a product page, only to have it trashed with unsolicited side wiki comments like "this sucks," deserved or not. It could get real ugly fast. - Lou Ordorica

@Patricia: Site owners *cannot* delete comments, including spam. They can only flag them for abuse. It's up to the "Google algorithm" to determine what stays, what goes. - Bryan Person

@Sonny I agree with you. Publishers must have their say on it - Lilian Mahoukou

@Lou: It certainly could, though, remember, Sidewiki only shows for users who've installed it in their browser. That's probably still a relatively small number. - Bryan Person

@Lou - the comments are more so Google's than anyone's IMO. But the interaction is something that a company will HAVE to monitor now because Google basically pushed it on them. - Sonny Gill

@Bryan, True. Still, this is Google we are talking about. I think Google should allow the site owner to opt out of side wiki. Not everyone is ready for it. - Lou Ordorica

@Lou: One point to note: Content producers/publisher can post a comment that will always display above anyone else's. In a way, that *could* serve as the authoritative comment. We'll see. - Bryan Person

What pros are there for something like Sidewiki? Easy entry into brand/community monitoring for companies who are slowly getting into that world? - Sonny Gill

What about fake side wiki comments from the competition ? - Lilian Mahoukou

yes it's not that hard to create bogus accounts and spam people - Leanne O'Shea

@Sonny: The main thing I can see Sidewiki evolving into is a tool to trash sites, rightly or wrongly. If the comments were legit, then I doubt there would be much of an issue placing them into the brands existing community context. Anonymity breeds a consequence free environment, which has its downside. - Carl Watson

@Lilian - good point. What is google going to do about moderation? Bigger question for them vs. companies who are getting commented on view SW. - Sonny Gill

@Lilian Exactly. At least in a private community you can attach credibility to a person based on their reputation. Who decides trust with Side Wiki? A Google algorithm? I wouldn't feel comfortable relying on this. - Lou Ordorica

@Sonny Yeah, I don't think companies are going to enjoy having public interactions pushed to them and not having some sort of control (e.g. opt out option like mentioned by @Lou) over them. - Patricia Ooi

And it seems inconsistent. I've already seen sites were the ordering seemed odd. - Leanne O'Shea

The only control I've seen thus far is Google allowing site owners to post an 'admin' message that will remain at the top of all comments. I did so on my blog to test it out. - Sonny Gill

there is no opt in or out - you have to install sidewiki to monitor what others are saying. But even if you do there is little that you do. - Leanne O'Shea

It's not - it just allows you to have your voice over your site. Not a lot of control really. - Sonny Gill

@Carl: Posts aren't exactly anonymous. You have to be logged into your Google account to comment. Of course, it's not that difficult to create a fake Google account and start commenting, but still ... there is at least one layer designed to give some transparency to this. - Bryan Person

@sonny @lou posting to sidewiki requires a google account which ties to your google profile. length and complexity of comment, age of your google profile, number of comments on sidewikis and votes of your comments seem to be tied to what floats upwards. - Scott Moore

Q2 is up! - Sonny Gill

it's not very transperant. You don't have to have much information on your profile and yes, easy to create bogus accouts - Leanne O'Shea

@Sue: No opt-out right now, although I have seen some ways developers can try to block Sidewiki on their sites. - Bryan Person

@Scott - very interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Important factor as far as relevance and truth goes in comments. - Sonny Gill

@Sonny: Exactly and the lack of control from the brand side is going to be key, I can see this being pretty consistently blocked by most corp communities. The lack of Opt-in, the lack of a user history and lack of transparency will also be key factors. - Carl Watson

BTW, I'm still skeptical that it will take off. Worth seeing how it develops, but remember that searchwiki and their new commenting haven't impacted brands on searches or new articles. - Scott Moore

blocking it is not so easy, causes other problems - Leanne O'Shea

@Carl - right. And as Scott just pointed out, the takeoff rate for more of a tech-feature like SW will be hard to grow IMO. But still, very early in the game. - Sonny Gill

@Scott: You're right; it could be that this is a big fuss about nothing. Google doesn't necessarily have the best track record in this area. - Bryan Person

well they can monitor it, just can't do anything about comments they don't like. Web owners cannot remove comments. - Leanne O'Shea

On the up side, google says there will be an API which means a cottage industry of apps allowing site owners to monitor, capture, aggregate, etc. - Scott Moore

Good point Bryan - relates to my 2nd question - Sonny Gill

I'm currently fighting to keep a troll out of my site. He'd have a field day with something like this. I don't like it at all. - Michelle

@Scott: True but my worry is that a company with the size and influence of Google makes this more of a factor, it very well could pan out to be nothing. - Carl Watson

@carl I agree. which is why it's worth watching. I'm skeptical because it has to be good enough for people to get something out of those side comments. - Scott Moore

@Michelle - care to explain the situation w/the troll? Via Sidewiki or otherwise? - Sonny Gill

@Scott: Agree. I just made a similar point in my response to Q2. - Bryan Person

@Sonny - I don't want to derail the convo with specifics about my battle. My point was that, when you have someone attacking your site, you have enough trouble keeping them from adding content to the site itself. Sidewiki gives them a venue that you have no control over to attack you. - Michelle

I think Google should offer a "Side Wiki for Enterprises" This is a wonderful tool for distributed groups collaborating on web sites. Teams can annotate pages in development, and the meta information stays on the page. No need to track changes, bugs, in a separate system. - Lou Ordorica

Really? Please say some more about what you mean. - Leanne O'Shea

Michelle, your concern about 'trolls' echos my own. I'm not very much in favor of Sidewiki for exactly the reason that there is no control/moderation ability. - Starwind

Understand your point Michelle. A huge concern that Google will have to meet head-on. - Sonny Gill

BTW, it's not as though there is no control - it's just not in the site owners hands. Comments can be voted up or down and flagged for review. The link Sonny posted to in this week's welcome post is a really detailed explanation of what is known so far. I'll report it for convenience: http://searchengineland.com/google-... - Scott Moore

And I've been watching the Microsoft site. There is a comment with high approval ratings that appears way down the page. The top comment actually refers to it, so the content is comparable. There is not way to explain the logic of why the comment appears where it does - except that Google doesn't like it and it has been quoted in a number of articles. There is nothing transperant about their monitoring process. - Leanne O'Shea

Scott - that type of control may not be enough for branded sites, though. - Starwind

Wouldn't you be concerned that the lack of participation from brands/companies could hurt them as well? I'm not saying I think SideWiki will take off but if it does wouldn't it e worse not to participate? - Arié Moyal

Seems to me the brand/company really needs to participate -- respond to some of the comments. - Starwind

So you're saying they shouldn't opt out of SideWiki? - Arié Moyal

Not saying that - I think they need to take a hard look at the positive/negative aspects and make their decision based on this. If they take it on I think they need to be part of the conversation. - Starwind

But would it be detrimental to the brand NOT to participate? - Arié Moyal

Well they only choice you have at the moment is to remain ignorant about what is on your site, or download the toolbar and keep track of it, or engage in the limited ways possible. - Leanne O'Shea

I think a community-oriented message from the site owner at the top of the sideWiki can be helpful in directing users, no? - Arié Moyal

@Arie I would think so. Maybe even a little legal disclaimer depending on your site (I can see that health sites would be keen on making it clear that sidewiki comments are not endorsed by the site owner). - Scott Moore

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

Q3: October 2, 2009 - Is Google taking from a company's community by giving people an option to share, but externally, outside of the company's homebase?

October 2, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

I think so. It's great for users to not have to log into each site and be able to comment everywhere but not so good for folks trying to build up a community of their own. - Michelle

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@Michelle - I see Google pushing this onto companies and their sites vs. something more natural. I could be wrong and prove to be an important feature, but will take some time to see that. - Sonny Gill

Maybe. Also a weak shot across Twitter's bow. Most of those type of comments outside of the community are now on Twitter. - Joe Kikta

I think that by having the UGC distributed between both Community and Sidewiki, and by Sidewiki only being available to those with the pluggin, there is an obvious impact to the content of a community. Even leaving the other issues aside for now. - Carl Watson

@Joe - true. We all know the adoption rates of new features/platforms that get released in this space also. Don't think it'd be able to take away from the value of monitoring on Twitter. - Sonny Gill

@Carl I agree. Tools that fragment the discussions in your community are not helpful. - Lou Ordorica

As far as fragmenting the discussions, do you monitor Twitter for comments outside your community, on your community? - Joe Kikta

@Sue - that's where I see the adverse effect of a feature like this. They're trying to silo community engagement, if your issue is what comes about. - Sonny Gill

Skeptical at how much community sidewiki will be able to foster. There's no threading or replies. The comments can be reordered in any way based on votes and reputation (which can change). add to that that, at the moment, google is mixing in blog post with comments and it seems like it breaks the experience. - Scott Moore

@Scott: Do you have a good example of a site where we can see blog posts being mixed in? Had heard of that but not yet seen it. - Bryan Person

@bryan I admit, I am making an assumption based on reports that google is seeding empty sidewikis with blog posts. - Scott Moore

@Scott - I wonder if given the breaking of experiences/interaction, if Sidewiki will even become a big enough factor for companies to care to monitor? - Sonny Gill

@sonny good point. Maybe it will become another "slightly separate" channel to monitor ala twitter, getsatisfaction, or the general commentosphere. :) - Scott Moore

I think the 'ordering' means that comments are always being decontexualized from each other. I think this just encourages people to right random rubbish. I know Google are banking on people responding to the content of the site, but.... - Leanne O'Shea

@Joe I think it depends. If your client is a significant brand, then it totally makes sense to monitor what fans and detractors are saying in mass social media spaces like twitter. Astute brands will do this themselves, or pay Seth Godin $400 to do it for them. :) - Lou Ordorica

Just posted Question 4 if you haven't scrolled up. Hard to tell if it's not announced :) - Sonny Gill

@Lou: Ha! From a selfish point of view, I do think it opens up monitoring service opportunities for agencies like ours. - Bryan Person

I think it will have a tough time gaining traction because of the extended toolbar requirement. Also, it's more of a toy, IMO. Is there enough value to make people want to install? - Joe Kikta

How much does anyone want to bet that Chrome comes with this already embedded in the Browser? it will catch because people are entranced with the possibility of being able to say anything without the consequences of social responsibility - Leanne O'Shea

I think you can say the same thing re:sidewiki displacing community about twitter and fan pages So it's not terrible It's just difficult to manage in it's current form - Arié Moyal

Sue: Good question Benefits: Ease of use maybe? No searching for where to comment. - Arié Moyal

@Leanne: I think that's the plan for a future update of Chrome. - Bryan Person

Joe: I think there are enough toolbar users to support it - Arié Moyal

@Sue: Many corporate sites require a registration process for commenting. None of that with Sidewiki (apart from being logged into your Google account). - Bryan Person

@Leanne - really good point. We can imagine what Google will be integrating come their Chrome OS release. - Sonny Gill

@Arie: Know where we might be able to find out total number of Toolbar users, and how many could be installing Sidewiki? - Bryan Person

Interestingly enough - people have already created scripts to block the use of Sidewiki on their sites: http://www.seroundtable.com/archive... - Sonny Gill

@Sonny Maybe Seth will be installing that script - Joe Kikta

he hasn't yet - Leanne O'Shea

@BryanPerson Oddly the only think I could find was an article on cnn.com from 2003 where Google already claimed to have millions of users - Arié Moyal

Is refusing to participate a good idea though? - Arié Moyal

@Joe - good point Joe. He may after he catches wind, but I can imagine the backlash from the blogosphere :) - Sonny Gill

@Arie They may actually have millions of users of the toolbar, but the extended version? Probably not - Joe Kikta

@Sonny I think if he hasn't suffered from his current stance yet that he could survive backlash from blocking. :) - Joe Kikta

@joe Google says they are planning to add it to Chrome by default. That might be interesting. - Scott Moore

Last question, Q5, is up! - Sonny Gill

Joe: True and not everyone wants to leave a comment... which brings up lurkers again... - Arié Moyal

@scott Have you seen any numbers on Chrome adoption yet? - Joe Kikta

@joe I haven't looked at browser share in a while, but this news story says they have about 3% of the browser market: http://www.computerworld.com/s... - Scott Moore

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

Q2: October 2, 2009 - For a company as big as Google, why haven't they been able to utilize their brand's strength to build a strong community platform? Can Sidewiki create that expert cmty for them?

October 2, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Big doesn't necessarily mean better in terms of community building. That hasn't really been Google's strength. - Bryan Person

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Right. Jaiku, of course, Google Video - never really built that much of a community following vs. other micro-communication platforms, and YouTube of course. Perhaps why they bought them :) - Sonny Gill

Sidewiki has the potential to do that, but I'm skeptical of the "algorithm," at least at this point. People who contribute to a community expect some of kind of "response" to their contribution/interaction. And depending on how nutty the algorithm is--or is perceived--they might not get that. - Bryan Person

Good points B. That's kind of where they separate themselves from creating a true community feature/platform with engagement and interaction vs. a place that's more to the benefit of Google and a database of 'expert' opinions on thousands of websites. - Sonny Gill

Google Groups? - Joe Kikta

@Sonny: Not to mention additional advertising revenue. - Carl Watson

http://www.google.com/groups :) - Sonny Gill

@bryan I agree. Orkut has been their biggest social/community play to date. Okay, groups, but that feel less social.... :) - Scott Moore

Q3 is up folks! - Sonny Gill

@Bryan Agree! I always think Google is "more of a robot than human". They are very good in tracking our passive activities (the site we visit, the site our blog links to, the feed we read, stuff we share with friends etc) but struggle when it comes to building active communities. - Patricia Ooi

I really don't think that sidewiki will create communities. It's really just a mechanism for giving everyone and anyone the right to comment anywhere. There is not threading of comments, no capacity to respond directly. This isn't community building. - Leanne O'Shea

@Leanne Good point. Maybe "Google Graffiti" is a better name for this service! :) - Lou Ordorica

I vote for Google Graffiti as the new name! :) - Joe Kikta

Joe - probably a more accurate name, at the least. =) - Starwind

More like "Graffiti Board for the Disaffected" - Leanne O'Shea

I may be remiss in saying so but the attitude in the Valley isn't very community focused at all... so I'm not surpised that Google isn;t trying - Arié Moyal

It could be that most developers are intraverted and that there's still a "don't tell anyone what we're doing they might steal it" attitude in business - Arié Moyal

@Arié I don't think you are out of line with your comment that community isn't the focus of many people in tech. - Scott Moore

CmtyChat: Sonny Gill

RANDOM: October 2, 2009: Welcome everybody and thanks for joining us! Feel free to post any additional questions, ideas, links, jokes, etc. - or just say hi :)

October 2, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

A great overview of Sidewiki, today's topic: http://searchengineland.com/google-... - Sonny Gill

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Thanks for the link! - Joe Kikta

Danny's post was excellent! Here's my analysis from earlier this week: http://bryanperson.com/2009... - Bryan Person

Looking forward to today's chat! - Bryan Person

@Bryan, Me too! The "annotated web" -- fascinating topic. - Lou Ordorica

Sorry I'm late! Hi everyone! - Arié Moyal

Little OT but wanted to say that I only use friendfeed for cmtychat so please don't be offended if I don't friend back. I literally only come here once a week for this. - Michelle

CmtyChat: Bryan Person

Q4: September 25, 2009: Weigh in on our last question of the day. Facebook Pages offer real opportunities for engagement, but can they really build to a true "community"?

September 25, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

They could. If you only exist there or find out that all your traffic comes via FB then it would be a true community. This is such a theoretical Q. Of course it CAN happen. If you choose to focus your attention there..... - Dave Weinberg

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Given the tips and ideas we shared today, yes. But, you truly have to have a cause, produce, service that people are passionate about and that they want to talk and engage on. - Sonny Gill

Similar to other Social Media, it is a facet of the whole community - but it isn't the only part. - Lee Anne Orange

I would still call it Community Lite..does it offer ability for other fans to engage each other easily? - Chris Bailey

For a small group of individuals with a common interest, I think FB could be the community. For any larger business or group, I think it is only part of the whole toolkit. - Amy Blake

@Sonny Agree 100%. They can be...but too often brands jump in because they think it will bring in wild success without much effort. - Scott Bishop

If the community is facebook-oriented and spend more time on this platform rather than another, we could build a true community. The FB page tools are sufficient to let people interact each other and talk back - Lilian Mahoukou

I don't think Facebook is a community platform like Communispace and LiveWorld offer I also don't think most people come to facebook to meet strangers Facebook is very strong-tie oriented - Arié Moyal

And FB is constantly tweaking so its possible that we'll see more community apps integrated in future - Chris Bailey

Again it depends on what your goals are. It can, if that is your only online presence or community initiative. However, by being in a silo you are missing other opportunities to spread your brand's message. - Angela Lawson

It can't be your primary community. However, community is such that it has to happen wherever your customers / readers are. You should be running several communities. - Maria Ogneva

@Chris - it's more so indirect engagement between fans. That may be the drawback but maybe what Facebook @mentions feature will help regain (IF they implement it within comments of comments (if that makes sense) - Sonny Gill

@Amy Agreed. Any org or brand big enough must engage users where they exist. People are already talking about your brand. Find them and engage. Drawing those tools together into your arsenal to drive traffic and actions where you want is the strategy behind everything. - Dave Weinberg

you should be on FB and Twitter and industry specific community sites, getsatisfaction, and definitely on your site. Wherever your customers are. - Maria Ogneva

@Sonny, perfect sense..I think with more moderation from the brand/individual, there is more possibility for community - Chris Bailey

I think it's tough to build only on FB. Still people out there that despise FB, but will engage in other forms of SM - Joe Kikta

@Dave Exactly! FB is part of a larger strategy/conversation/plan/etc. And each organization/business is different. The beauty of having all these tools is we can focus where we can best serve our clients/customers! - Amy Blake

@Dave @Amy Jeremiah Owyang has a nice term for engaging users - "Fish where the fish are." - Lou Ordorica

Lou: I just said that on another Q - Arié Moyal

Thanks Lou - Dave Weinberg

@Dave @Lou: Love this: fish where the fish are!! - Amy Blake

Don't you also have to be careful to not spread yourself too thin in the SM World? Unless you just have an army of ppl to listen, engage and manage... - Joe Kikta

Yeah it's tough to build community on FB and nearly impossile to build community around FB apps! - Arié Moyal

Great discussion here, everyone! I'll be hopping off soon, but don't stop on my account :) - Bryan Person

@Joe With new multi-posting tools (posterous and tumblr) you can create content once and have it show up everywhere at once. Listening can be filtered and thus watched smarter. But the bigger you are, the more ppl you'll want part of your team. Eg. Kodak has a chief listener as well as a content person and an engagement person as part of their SM team. - Dave Weinberg

@joe, you have to know what you goals are and staff accordingly. The big mistake companies make is jumping in because everyone else is there and not doing anything after the page is up. I can say I have made those mistakes and learned hard lessons from them. - Angela Lawson

@Dave But how much of that will plug into FB? Isn't it kind of self-contained? Do they allow plug-ins of content from other sites? Other than Status Updates, that is. - Joe Kikta

@Joe It plugs in perfectly. I can email posterous which then sends that content (any media types) to my synced and connected accounts, eg. fb, tw, delicious, etc.... - Dave Weinberg

@Angela - so true! At my agency, sometimes we would start a client with a "jump start" but then we give them a detailed guide on how to proceed with the tools we helped them develop (this is for clients with small budgets, and who want to do it themselves). Starting something and not continuing is deadly for your brand. No one wants to see a moldy old page. - Maria Ogneva

@Arie - I think that building community is possible, but given the need to work around apps, which can be very distracting, I think it's bit of a struggle. - Starwind

The focus is broader, rather than narrower, particularly when users bring in apps. From my point of view FB's strength is relationships of a more personal, rather than community, nature. - Starwind

CmtyChat: Bryan Person

Q3: September 25, 2009: Facebook group or Facebook Page? How do you decide which one to use? Which is better for community building?

September 25, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Lilian Mahoukou liked this

FB fan pages are more interaction-oriented - Lilian Mahoukou

59 more comments

Facebook suggests using Pages now only. - Dave Weinberg

@dave does that suggest that group will end up going away? - Angela Lawson

Pages are dif. Since new posts and fan activity auto-posts to other ppl's feed which is different than groups and many apps, a good page can keep growing exponentially if monitored. Groups do not have this functionality PLUS cannot be creatively altered using FBML. - Dave Weinberg

I personally love Pages as there are more opportunities for the community to share and engage in the open-stream. Easy to connect with others' messages. - Sonny Gill

I agree with Sonny. We closed down our group and started a fan page - much better features/interactivity. - Michele Gartner

I've just moved a client to a Fan Page from a Group. Not enough time to really judge yet, but so far I'm pleased. - Amy Blake

@Angela Groups wont go away, they serve different purposes. Pages are for companies, orgs and individuals who want to exist as a brand. Groups are more informal and can exist unofficially around those things. - Dave Weinberg

From a member point of view, it is more fun to use pages. You really meet with other people. At the end of the day, it's more members between them. What do you think ? - Lilian Mahoukou

Then, do groups encourage some members to lurk ? - Lilian Mahoukou

@Lilian - right on. Groups to me, as a member of a few, feel like more of an information portal vs. one of engagement. - Sonny Gill

Luckily for me I have @dave on my team and he is moving our group into a Fan page. It's in design currently but I thrilled with what I have seen and am sure it will be great for our engagement and promotional needs. - Angela Lawson

@Lilliian @Sonny That may be OK if your goal is to eventually drive traffic from Facebook to your own site - Lou Ordorica

@Lilian: I'd agree that Facebook Pages tend to be more engaging than groups, but groups tend to have a more limited focus. - Bryan Person

@Lou - good point, Lou. It does all matter on what the goal is of the organization. - Sonny Gill

Definitely pages vs. groups. A group is like a closed community. Fan page is like becoming friends with the brand, and interacting like you would with a FB friend - they show up in your feed, you can write on their walls, etc. - Maria Ogneva

So it's a more natural shift from friend page to fan page - you aren't asking the fans to alter their behavior too much. If this makes sense. - Maria Ogneva

Pages, no question. Groups are only left up for people that created them a while back and haven't transfered. There is no overwhelming reason to start a new group - Scott Bishop

@Maria - you make a good point about users' behaviors on FB. You're right, they don't change as both profile and fan pages are similar in structure. - Sonny Gill

@Maria--that's how I see it too: like a friend page, but for an organization/brand/etc. - Amy Blake

However, Fan pages can pose a greater moderation challenge. You need to know going in what you feel is acceptable and when, if ever you moderate or delete. - Angela Lawson

How about the discussion forums? Do you see those working better on a group or a Page? - Bryan Person

The main advantage i see for groups is being able to send users a message that will show up in their inboxes (fb and potentially e-mail) - Arié Moyal

@Bryan - I'll be honest, I don't pay attention to discussion forums on pages as much as I would in groups. They're more prevalent in the latter. - Sonny Gill

@Angela: Moderation challenge for Pages is greater because they're more public than groups, right? - Bryan Person

@Arie you can do that in a page too. - Dave Weinberg

They other main advantage of pages is the ability to control the look and feel. - Angela Lawson

@Arie, the email option is the last benefit of a group over a page. But I feel that getting too many emails from a group begins to get annoying pretty quickly - Scott Bishop

Dave: It shows up in their Updates tab not in their inbox form what I can tell. Did I miss something? - Arié Moyal

Until recently with Fan page updates showing in your stream, it was easy to get lost in the shuffle with the Updates link instead of Inbox for messages - Joe Kikta

Scott: It's definitely a question of balance :) Too much of most things is a turn off - Arié Moyal

@Scott Agreed! The e-mail option could be used as roundups to post community activity summaries or news - Lilian Mahoukou

@Sonny: The Facebook NBA Page - http://www.facebook.com/nba - is about the only Page where I've seen high volume of content on Discussions tab - Bryan Person

@Arie updates show up in the feed, but you can private msg your fans. - Dave Weinberg

@bryan, Wall feeds will post to fan/friends profiles. More info going out in real time. - Angela Lawson

@Lilian: And what would be the equivalent of using that e-mail function with a Page? - Bryan Person

@Bryan Discussion in pages in no more public than in groups. Think of pages as groups 2.0. - Dave Weinberg

I rarely check my Updates link and I think I'm not alone in that practice - Joe Kikta

@Dave: More "public" in the sense that updates are going out to fans' activity streams. - Bryan Person

@Bryan - 1. No idea why I wasn't apart of that page being a bball lover 2 - discussions are definitely robust. Due in part of the size of their community? Passionate fans? Good thing to ask yourself as a company - do you have something that people will be passionate about? - Sonny Gill

@Joe: I *never* check my Updates link, so you've got me beat - Bryan Person

@Bryan updates to discussions dont appear in fans' streams only major updates and changes do. Such as "X became a fan" or "Watch our new video" - Dave Weinberg

I don't see where you can private message your fans directly into their inbox It goes to the updates tab doesn't it Also you can;t PM one-on-one from what I can tell Maybe Fan Pages for apps is different - Arié Moyal

I just (like a few days ago) started up a FB group for my site. I had a page but didn't really know what to do with it. Maybe I just conceptually understand groups better? After reading this, I'm going to take a closer look at what pages do and see if maybe I should just forget the group and focus on the page. - Michelle

@Bryan It could be a good idea to drive traffic to the main community - Lilian Mahoukou

@Michelle Focus on the page. - Dave Weinberg

I never check my Updates tab either - Arié Moyal

@Bryan But as pages are more interaction-oriented, I would go for engaging in conversations to learn more about my community and talk back. - Lilian Mahoukou

@Arie The link is under your page image. Click the "more button" and "send an update to your fans" appears. - Dave Weinberg

Q4 is up! - Sonny Gill

@Sonny: Thanks ... Q4 is up! - Bryan Person

@Dave: Sorry, was referring to Wall posts! - Bryan Person

Dave That's an update It doesn't go to the inbox nor do they get a notification of an update - Arié Moyal

Fact is that Social Media and Community are merging in a way that many of us "long-time" community practitioners did not see coming. You can't ignore it any longer. My best advice is either hire or connect with a social media guru. When we hired @dave it was exactly for his social media experience. And as a result my social media knowledge has improved drastically. - Angela Lawson

@Dave And as previously mentioned, ppl don't check their Updates section.... - Joe Kikta

@Arie I dont think thats true. It send you to a fb msg dialog box not an feed update. - Dave Weinberg

Dave Maybe it has changed recently but that's not my experience - Arié Moyal

@Joe agreed, neither do I. I think if that sends an update then its useless, except for that mnay ppl still receive updates via email. I know you can private msg your fans, I might just be getting the way to do it wrong. - Dave Weinberg

You can private message your fans but not as the Page, only as yourself which doesn't always make sense to people - Arié Moyal

@Arie Right, that is good if the page is a politician or the like. Unless the brand is tied to an individual this seems awkward. - Dave Weinberg

Dave: Yep it's awkward if you can;t message people as the app, which doesn't solve my problem LOL - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Bryan Person

RANDOM: September 25, 2009. Here's where you can introduce yourself, propose discussion questions, and offer off-topic thoughts.

September 25, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Let's do your 3 keywords again. Here are mine: sunshine, retreat, Facebook. - Bryan Person

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I've been traveling too much to be able to participate recently. Woohoo. Great to be here. - Marcia Conner

Fasting, Birthday, autumn - Arié Moyal

rain, mpmf, networking - Joe Kikta

Hey Joe! - Arié Moyal

Bryan, can we discuss building community around facebook apps as well? The focus seems to be on using pages for things that live outside of facebook and that's important too but I feel we're missing an opportunity if we don't discuss apps - Arié Moyal

Hey Arie! - Joe Kikta

I guess I'm not going to get the insight I was hoping for :S - Arié Moyal

CmtyChat: Bryan Person

Q2: September 25, 2009: Let's try to come up with a good list of best practices for driving engagement on Facebook Pages. Add your recommendations below.

September 25, 2009 - Comment - Like - Share

Lilian Mahoukou liked this

I'd welcome practices for driving to FB groups too... or do I just need to move my group to a page?! (Welcome hearing that too). - Marcia Conner

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have someone dedicated to monitoring FB pages and interacting - Chris Bailey

Video on front page is highly recommended. - Dave Weinberg

#1 engagement strategy is Consistent Frequency of Posts. If you aren't posting engageing questions or content...you don't exist. - Scott Bishop

Watching your analytics from the back end is key to showing you where and how to make changes. - Dave Weinberg

learn to use FBML and produce custom tabs to guide people to where you want them to go - Chris Bailey

Well, not sure if it's best practices, but I try to post engaging content (my client's and other relevant content), encouraging fans to participate - I usually ask questions, have fans express their opinion. - Maria Ogneva

what do you recommend for "interaction activities"? - Lee Anne Orange

Use links to drive traffic back to your main community - Angela Lawson

@Marcia - here's a good resource to look over comparing pages vs. groups - http://mashable.com/2009... - Sonny Gill

@Scott: What do you recommend for frequency of posts? One a day? Two a day? You also don't want to overdo it ... - Bryan Person

@Scott - absolutely right. Keeping the community engaged, testing their thoughts and what they feel about certain topics. Can't remain stagnant. - Sonny Gill

@Lee Anne a simple "action items" box on the front like the Humane Society does. If you can sexy that up... even better. http://www.facebook.com/search... - Dave Weinberg

Scott: I agree - frequency of posts is key. Also, when I post, i usually try to find the most attractive thumbnail. - Maria Ogneva

My best practice: Use photos and video to drive engagement. - Bryan Person

@Scott, each community differs. There is no set formula. A b2b community is different than a consumer or social community. - Angela Lawson

@Angela: How well do you find that people follow those links back to your central community? - Bryan Person

Thanks Dave, I will check it out. - Lee Anne Orange

Even for our very own CmtyChat - people have been responding very well to Bryan's audio previews. I personally love them! - Sonny Gill

I don't like FB for community personally. I feel that it's too restrictive. - Maria Ogneva

@Bryan It depends on the purpose of the page. You need to beware of "Reader Fatigue". But a few times per week is fine. Again, it depends on the buinsess and why people have joined. But too ofter I see pages that havne't been updated in weeks - Scott Bishop

@Maria : Agreed! It's easy to launch a FB fan page but very important to keep people interested by your content - Lilian Mahoukou

@Angela +1. The value of time increases exponentially with B2B over B2C, you need to deliver good return on attention. - Lou Ordorica

We are just moving to a fan page but with our FB group and Twitter we get a lot of traffic from Social Media referals. - Angela Lawson

@Maria not once you learn FBML and gain from others' pages. Building a custom page is not simple drag and drop, but can be really effective over time. - Dave Weinberg

I have found contests are a good way to both atract new fans and get your current community engaged. But after the contest...you need a strategy to keep the interest - Scott Bishop

@Dave fortunately FBML isn't that hard to use, particularly if you know yr way around Dreamweaver - Chris Bailey

@Scott: Right. A case a starting something and not keeping up. Leaving it to die! - Bryan Person

@dave good point. I should get on that :) - Maria Ogneva

@Scott - funny you mention that. I've seen great contests on Twitter and Facebook, but never heard a peep from that brand after the fact. - Sonny Gill

@Bryan, @Scott : We need to think long-term strategy not campaigns - Lilian Mahoukou

@Chris Even without, the Facebook developer test area isa great tool which helps. http://developers.facebook.com/tools... - Dave Weinberg

@Maria Good point with the thumbnails. Often this is the first impression to draw initial attention to your page posts - Scott Bishop

@Lilian - bingo! Social media is NOT a 'campaign' - Sonny Gill

@Sonny Exactly. As important, if not more...is the strategy after the contest. I rarely see brands roll out content well after the initial bang - Scott Bishop

We're planning a recurring contest that askes people to vote on the content submitted and pick a winner - Arié Moyal

@Scott - the short-term for them is great, but sustaining that push and drive is even more important than the contest itself. Something companies are slowly learning but yet to implement well. - Sonny Gill

@Sonny How to avoid the campaign pitfall ? - Lilian Mahoukou

We ran a contest lately and it just bombed. i think that users are just getting bored with the same old tricks. - Angela Lawson

@Lilian @Sonny Totally agree..Social Media needs the same strategy process as any other part of the biz. But campaigns exist within that strategy. - Scott Bishop

Facebook seems to be full of apps, contests, etc. that are ultra-popular for about 5 secs and then go away. People lose interest. The novelty wears off - Joe Kikta

@Joe - how would you drive interaction and keep that engagement up? - Sonny Gill

What about champions within your community and on FB ? - Lilian Mahoukou

What I want to take away from here is ideas to help me manage the community that exists around our facebook app Any ideas? - Arié Moyal

@Joe Pages are dif. Since new posts and fan activity auto-posts to other ppl's feed which is different than groups and many apps, a good page can keep growing exposnentially if monitored. - Dave Weinberg

@ Angela what kind of contest was it? - Arié Moyal

@Arie: Community around a Facebook app? Say a little more about that. - Bryan Person

@Lilian @Sonny Agreed! Not a campaign! My partner and I actually wrote a post "Marketing is not a drive by shooting" on our agency blog! - Maria Ogneva

Q3 posted ... but feel free to keep going in this thread, too. - Bryan Person

To me, FB is like the web/blogs. It's content-driven. Of course, the key is knowing what content your community wants and what they consider to be of value! - Amy Blake

@Dave True. Constantly adding new content and soliciting involvement is key. Same with apps. Have to be constantly evolving. @Sonny - Joe Kikta

Well we have a facebook app which is basically a phone/voice messaging/IM Java app and I'm finding it quite difficult to reach out to users - Arié Moyal

Q3 is up for anyone who hasn't scrolled up :) - Sonny Gill

@Arie Sounds interesting. Name of App? What's your target? - Joe Kikta

App is called Telephone http://apps.facebook.com/babyTEL - Arié Moyal

I want to strengthen the community that already uses the app as well as have discourse with new users but there seems to be a black box there People think "I'm using a facebook app" not "I'm using babyTEL's app ON facebook" - Arié Moyal

@Arie: That link doesn't work for me. - Bryan Person

@Arie: Didn't work for me either - Joe Kikta

http://apps.facebook.com/babytel - Arié Moyal

Who knew? Facebook vanity URLs are case-sensitive? - Arié Moyal

Arié Moyal › Comments