"No ill effects were reported by hundreds of volunteers who took part in a mass-overdose stunt around the world to demonstrate that homeopathic remedies are nothing more than sugar pills. "There were no casualties at all, as far as I know," says Martin Robbins, spokesman for the "10:23" campaign, created to highlight the alleged ineffectiveness of homeopathic remedies. "No one was cured of anything either," says Robbins." - Andrew Terry from Bookmarklet

I could have told them that. That's not the way homeopathy works. It is the way drugs take effect. They work on two different methodologies. Try again. - Melanie Reed

I also expect things like this now. Watch your history. Every time money is tight you will see big money making industries release "studies" that counter argue the benefits or undermine their competitors in order to get a bigger piece of the economic pie. - Melanie Reed

Melanie - that was the point of the stunt; to illustrate that homeopathy doesn't work, for good *or* bad, and yet they're marketed as "remedies".... - Andrew Terry

Andrew, Homeopathy does work but not on single dose. - Melanie Reed

Ummmm, they're sugar pills; they're no more remedial than a Polo mint. - Andrew Terry

No here's the deal. Homeopathy does have a market and the drug makers want it. And they are doing the same thing they did years ago to under mine the market and yet it came back. Hmmmmmm - Melanie Reed

Now if you want to drugs for everything, that's fine. If I choose to take this, that is my choice and others. But the drug companies don't want you and I to have choice. - Melanie Reed

Just because it has a market doesn't make it legitimate. You can buy spray-on hair, too. - Akiva

It was legitimate before drug companies came in. Please read the history. - Melanie Reed

Does the term "snake oil" mean anything to you, Melanie? - Scoble, Alex Scoble

It's not a matter of history, Melanie. It's a matter of science. Homeopathy has been disproven time and time again. - Akiva

I'm with Melanie on this one, they do work on somethings and if people want them, why can't they? - Faraz Mullick

No one's saying you can't eat sugar pills if you want. - Akiva

@Faraz - I think the opposition is mainly to homeopathy being treated on equal footing with other remedies. (I also think there's a lot of confusion over the term homeopathy, as a lot of people just think that means all natural medicine, which it is definitely not.) - Jennifer Dittrich

Jennifer, good point. I'm a big fan of naturopathy but homeopathy is hogwash. You might as well as believe in some mystical being in the sk... HEY WAIT A MINUTE HERE - Akiva

iirc, the point of the stunt was to prove that homeopathy is a placebo effect and that NHS money (tax money) should not be spent on it - Chris Heath

And just for some good ol' laughs: http://www.b3tards.com/v... - Akiva

Homeopathic medicine is the practice of administering highly diluted quantities of substances that are suspected of causing the same effects as the illness they are intended to treat. So in theory they should have exhibited the symptoms of whatever their medicine was intended to treat. Since they exhibited none, it appears their medicine treats nothing. Thus, a fool and his money part swiftly. - Geoff Schultz {TF}

Wouldn't OD'ing on homeopathic 'remedies' be achieved by diluting it even more, though? Natural remedies are fine when they can be proved to work, Akiva. I don't think that's what people generally mean when they refer to naturopathy. You can still be a fan, of course - Eivind

Eivind, you don't think that naturopathy is what people mean when they refer to naturopathy? - Akiva

Perhaps, as Joel, presented on another thread this is a terminology problem. It's not that you are saying natural remedies don't work its that the term to many of you of homeopathy has lost credibility according to your perception of it. - Melanie Reed

Um, no. Homeopathy has a very specific definition in this case. Homeopathy != Natural medicine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Jennifer Dittrich

Homeopathy, as it is defined, has no credibility not because of my perception but because of scientific studies on it. Naturopathy and homeopathy are not the same thing. - Akiva

But again, this is about money.And were all "homeopathic/naturopathic" remedies were removed, the drug companies would begin to devour each other. - Melanie Reed

At this point, personally, let the will of the people take place. If I and others who want different have to pay or do without, I accept that. - Melanie Reed

I seriously doubt the drug companies are all that worried about homeopathic products. If they actually worked, they'd produce them themselves. But since they don't, they know that people who take them will eventually get sick enough to need proper pharmaceutical medicine in the long run. - Akiva

Uh? Why would they consolidate even more than they already do. I have a feeling the board member that brings up the word Homeopathy in a discussion regarding competition gets laughed out of the room. - Geoff Schultz {TF}

As far as I can tell, no one on this thread is actively calling for naturopathic remedies to be removed at all (some are singing its praises). The two terms are not interchangeable, even if that has become common usage. - Jennifer Dittrich

Akiva, I meant I don't think naturopathy is just about proven natural remedies. If that was the case you could just call it medicine. No one is trying to use as much synthetic medicine as possible. - Eivind

Eivind, there are many types of medicine, each classified according to its kind: natural, antibiotic, et al. They're all medicines. Now, having written that, I certainly don't believe that all natural remedies are worth a damn and some may have an effect but not enough. My argument here is that there is science that backs up the effects of naturopathy and there is none that backs up homeopathy. - Akiva

I agree on science based medicine, Akiva. This is what I'm thinking of when I hear naturopathy, though (you may just think about science based natural remedies like aspirin): http://www.quackwatch.com/01Quack... - Eivind

Akiva, I respect your argument. But Science doesn't always tell the truth. It has a percentage rate of arriving at something that appears to be true as far as it is known at that moment. That is why you will have problems with medicines that are scientifically founded but have to be recalled later. Alex, Yes, I do know the difference between something that has worked for me and "snake oil". :) - Melanie Reed

Naturopathy is in the same psuedo-science league as homeopathy; nothing that can stand up to scientific testing and scrutiny. - Andrew Terry

And then the inevitable: "We're sorry but we didn't know as much but then please trust us now because we know so much more." - Melanie Reed

Anecdotes "doesn't always tell the truth" either, Melanie. What has worked for you sounds like the placebo effect, and that can be achieved with snake oil. - Eivind

Eivind, If it goes on for three years or more with no change but they are made worse by the doctors and their drugs what should we do? - Melanie Reed

I would do some research into other proven treatment methods, but of course medicine can't fix everything. - Eivind

Bingo! Eivind. That is why people turn to alternative medicine. Why did you not consider that I and others have been doing that? - Melanie Reed

"But Science doesn't always tell the truth" - no, but unlike pseudo-science, Science is built upon the framework of change. Once a theory is proven not to be sound it is discarded. Homeopathy is NOT Science, because even in the clear light of being shown to be a hoax, its adherents continue to support it. - iTad from fftogo

Melanie, the key word there is "proven." Homeopathy has been proven to have no effect at all besides the effect one gets from sugar pills. - iTad from fftogo

Tad - great point. That's an important, and often overlooked, aspect of science-based medicine - chemists and doctors *know* they don't have all the answers and that's what continues to drive them forward, with research and testing. - Andrew Terry

I think what is not being said as well is that until you have been in the situation and been sick that long, its hard to see the other person's point of view. - Melanie Reed

And my guess is that Homeopathy is pretty static... because it's a hoax. - iTad from fftogo

Melanie, I agree with that statement, but it has nothing to do with the efficacy of homeopathy. - iTad from fftogo

Thanks Tad and as I said, I am willing to forgo anyone paying for what alternative medicine I choose to take. And if I can't afford it then I'll do without. Because I never want to go back to the mess I got into going from doctor to doctor and being made worse. At some point, logic kicked in and saw my finances being drained and I wasn't getting better but only worse. And the ironic thing was that "proven" scientific methods always seemed to either be out of grasp or yet again ineffective in my and others like cases. I had the choice of just sitting there doing nothing or trying a field which, like you, I was afraid of to be "silliness". I chose to be foolish...and I got better. - Melanie Reed

You're not describing homeopathy there, jcunwired. The homeopathic remedy would be water that 'remembered' being in contact with the poison ivy extract. - Eivind

Eivind, I appreciate what you are saying and you and I must have different homeopathic reference books. I think mine must be "old" because none of my homepathic books use that description or even advocate it. - Melanie Reed

You don't believe in "potentization", Melanie? Maybe we are talking past each other then. - Eivind

Eivind, I think its the latter conclusion. :) - Melanie Reed

Most allergy medication that's administered in a doctors office (subcutaneously) is small doses of the allergen, and I have had doctors recommend that I eat honey from a local beehive to help with spring allergies (because the local flower pollen gets in the honey), but those are NOT Homeopathic remedies. Homeopathic is when they take something that causes an ailment, run water over it, FILTER the water, then make sugar pills from the water. There's no more of the offending agent in the sugar pills at that point. They're just sugar pills. Will it "cure" some people? Actually yes, because the placebo effect is a powerful one and some people respond well to it and their bodies fix themselves because they believe. But is it effective for everyone? No. And should it cost a lot of money? No because it's sugar pills. - Lindsay

Lindsay, it appears that it needs to be said again that apparently homeopathy is a general term that many of us (for the past 20 years I know of and during the time I was the editor of Southern Indiana HEAL a part of the national HEAL(Human Ecology Action League dealing with issues related to chemical sensitivities and complex allergies) in Atlanta and wrote about this) have understood to be inclusive of natural remedies. It has only been apparently during recent times that the term has come to mean something entirely different and with a disdainful reputation since it poses a threat in the universal health care debate. I don;t see that it should. Those of us who were using natural remedies were having to pay for them all this time out of pocket. If it is this much of a problem, then I see no reason for that to change. I never took any "sugar" pills and I knew of no one who did. - Melanie Reed

Recently someone I know posted something that seemed interesting about water memory, the idea that water can retain some chemical properties of a solution regardless of how dilute the solution had become. This is supposedly the mechanism at work with "mother water" and its dilutes that makes homeopathy possible. Apparently a skeptical scientist named Madeleine Ennis conducted an experiment comparing extremely dilute solutions of histamine with pure water and found some results that she couldn't explain. Reading about this piqued my interest until I followed up and discovered that there were doubleblind problems with the original experiment. When James Randi attempted to reproduce the experiment with the addition of doubleblind protocols, he was unable to reproduce the results. Ultimately I find myself feeling pretty skeptical about homeopathy. - Jason Wehmhoener

Melanie, are you talking about something other than Homeopathy, as described on Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... That seems to be what everyone else is talking about, and it certainly seems to be a complete and total hoax. - iTad from fftogo

Tad, there appears to be a difference between ancient homeopathy and modern homeopathy. One seems to have the jury still in somewhat where the other feels certain the jury is having dinner at Denny's. ;) At any rate, the real argument is about money and where it should go in health care. The sub argument is about the efficacy or non-efficacy of homeopathy. We are treading difficult waters in this country with choice on a number of levels, but primarily with health care and privacy. And we are showing signs of losing both if, and only if, we don't allow ourselves alternatives. In health care we are really saying:"If the accepted regimen of paid for universal healthcare is adverse to 5 children on my block and 3 adults, but it saves 15 children and 20 adults, then that is what we should ethically do. It sounds "right". But it doesn't allow for choice and become something more than perhaps bargained for down the road. Now if it allows for personal responsibility (choice) then we have a democratic system. And democratic systems have to allow for good to fair to poor choices on both sides of the coin, poor community choices as well as poor individual choices. Without that, you don't get the good choices either way with the individual protecting the state when the community has erred and vice-versa. - Melanie Reed

I'm sorry Melanie - you totally lost me on all that. The original discussion was centered around whether or not Homeopathy was a fraud. As for money in healthcare, especially tax payer money - certainly none of it should go to proven hoaxes. A hoax alternative is NOT an alternative. - iTad from fftogo

Tad, that is my point: would you really feel that strongly (and did you before?) about homeopathy if it were not for the health care debate and the possibility of your tax dollars going to fund it? Would it not really be just a minor (if that) annoyance that it existed? - Melanie Reed

There is no debate about the efficacy. There is not, and never, in the entire history of the universe, has there ever been a double-blind peer-reviewed study that showed any efficacy of homeopathy beyond placebo effect. Whether it's public or private dollars, it's still fraud and should be prosecuted as such. - Glen Campbell no really

Of course I would Melanie. I hate when "psychics" dupe people out of money in their frauds as well. Anything that masquerades as science which clearly isn't gets on my nerves. However, to your point, I suppose I'd be willing to allow Homeopathy to exist as long as its practitioners are required to clearly state that its effects are placebo in nature and that no taxpayer money ever go to it. - iTad from fftogo

I'm with Glen. This stuff is pure nonsense. Just because fools and their money are easily parted doesn't mean it should be legal. - Matt M (inactive)

Blind allegiance to "science" is hogwash. You might as well as believe in some mystical being in the sk... HEY WAIT A MINUTE HERE - *misquotes Akiva* - Laura Norvig

By Melanie's reasoning, I can take advantage of the poor choices of seniors and start bilking them out of their retirement savings. I'd hate to see the nanny state get involved in the personal choices of seniors. - Matt M (inactive)

Laura N, That is another concern I have: blind allegiance to science. It is coming to that and I find that very disturbing as they have been wrong so many times with dire results to many. They certainly were in my case as they were when they convinced my parents to remove my tonsils. As they were when they misdiagnosed me for a number of years. As they were when they misdiagnosed a friend of mine with the wrong drug who now suffers a lifetime of seizures. (they did admit and they are sorry) But of course, she still has to suffer. Can you imagine living in a state that would force you to take drugs that would leave your baby without arms after birth or you with seizures for a lifetime? As uncomfortable as the tension can be, it is a good tension to have in a state when choice and debate are available. - Melanie Reed

There's nothing wrong with gambling on unproven alternatives when the statistically beneficial solutions aren't working (though not with tax dollars), but alternative solutions should be properly labeled, with no false claims. But the pure modern definition of homeopathy is BS and should be illegal to claim benefits beyond placebo and entertainment value. - Tinfoil 2.0

Melanie, you make it sound like "science" is one hive mind with *one* opinion on every subject. I'm sorry about your friend, but your anecdotes doesn't prove anything else than that doctors aren't perfect. People have been misdiagnosed in the past and people will be misdiagnosed in the future. Misdiagnosis are nearly always human errors made because doctors don't posses all the knowledge there is in the field of medicine, or because they simply didn't connect the right dots from symptoms to possible underlying causes (even though they may have heard of that connection in the past). I don't know what you mean by "blind allegiance to science", but it sounds like you feel we should throw in the opinions of a few psychics, alchemists, astrologists, mediums and priest for balance. I would say your safest bet is to trust the scientific consensus in any field where you don't have the competence or the time to read all the underlying data. Of course the consensus *may* be wrong, but that will be corrected as new evidence presents itself. If I'm allowed to misquote Akiva as well, I'd say that "blind allegiance to one static idea despite evidence to the contrary is hogwash". - Eivind

Eivind, I would like to respond to this more fully but I have an apt coming up that I need to prepare for so I'm going through things quickly. With respect, my concern is that over the past few years, science has raised her self into thinking that she is the "mother of all disciplines" and her mistakes which are at times tragic and gargantuan are often glossed over and blame shifted. Science is a tool and only a tool. It is not the harbinger of all truth. It is most unwise to put all our eggs in this rather fragile basket, clinging to it as it tries to make man god. That I find one of the most frightening aspects of this trend in thinking. There is almost a worship of science and a daring to anyone who might question it and its current precepts of thought. It is understandable that a society who has removed the foundations of belief in one area would desperately grab for that of another. It fulfills the old maxim: nature abhors a vacuum. When society creates a hole in the soul, its naturally going to fill it up with something. The desire for wanting something that provides some answers is too great. As for proof, how many deaths and disabilities done in the sole pursuit of science does it take before they are no longer anecdotal and emerge into the realm of reality? - Melanie Reed

science is a process, not a tool. i think you're projecting a bit melanie (science as god?) - any mistakes made by man in pursuit of truth using science are just that - mistakes made by man. the scientific method is a process that has been proven to be the most reliable and successful method of thinking in known history. if a doctor doesn't make the correct diagnosis that's not science's fault - if an engineer doesn't do his calculation correctly that's not science's fault -- don't blame science for the imperfections of man - Chris Heath

It is interesting to note that "New Scientist" is reporting on this event that is essentially a stunt, hardly a controlled and repeatable experiment with verifiable results. - Jason Wehmhoener

Wow, New Scientist, welcome to the present. - Akiva

Hmm, say what? - Jason Wehmhoener

A homeopathic treatment for AIDS: 1 drop of AIDS tainted blood in the ocean. Everyone infected person the world takes a sip. No more AIDS (now does that seem even slightly credible to you, because it sure doesn't to me) - April

Melanie, for matters of fact and reason, there is no other basket in which to put our eggs. - Tinfoil 2.0

LogEx, After a time, you may too find, that when facts don't always add up and reason alone can wind us up in circles, we always have a higher wisdom to which we can appeal if we want to. The relief one finds is that we are not stuck with only one fragile basket of our own making. So that when there is something we can't see or understand, we don't always have to grope for it in the dark where our instruments crude or sophisticated could miss it, we could ask. - Melanie Reed