"Brownies, in this chocolate lover’s opinion, should be chocolate. Not only should they be chocolate but they should be all chocolate with no nuts. Then why am I crazy for this peanut butter brownie? I don’t know. There is plenty of chocolate here and if you take yours out of the oven a little too early, as I did, you might think you are eating a gooey Reese’s peanut butter cup."
- Derrick
from Bookmarklet
I'm in denial and these posts don't help me any so STOP IT! :D
- ♥patricia♥
Welcome to NCAA Basketball and March Madness. It consumes me.
- Mike Nayyar
I don't know what you're talking about. Combines are this week, the draft is in April, and there's plenty to keep your cheesehead high about.
- Pete Delucchi
If you get NFL Network on cable, they do replay games from the season every night
- .LAG liked that
I know, but it's better than nothing...especially in HD!
- .LAG liked that
We had arena league season ticks but that folded. So nothing.
- Todd Hoff
@Todd...oh, yeah, that's right, I forgot about arena football going on hiatus for at least one season. is nothing sacred in this economy?
- .LAG liked that
Northing. We are on the border of the profane.
- Todd Hoff
I agree with Steven, not the same. Sorry tho Mr Perez, GO PACKERS!!
- Shey, Jamaican of FF
This has to be the best friendfeed face ever. I feel sorry for you, Shey, but hey on the bright side, Formula One is about to kick off again soon.
- Alex Scoble
My husband sports that same face every year too. Epic photo Shey! :D
- Carmen
Here's another datapoint for your prop-13 arguments. This property is selling for $1,500,000, but apparently they only pay $81.66/year in property taxes. http://www.redfin.com/CA...
That's the fault of the local Assessor's office and has nothing to do with anti-Prop 13 propaganda. Here in Los Angeles, our county Assessor's office is on top of things. Our property has been assessed twice since we move here in early '07. We didn't ask for it, they just did. We just received our most recent assessment yesterday.
- Anika
Anika, "Under Proposition 13, the annual real estate tax on a parcel of property is limited to 1% of its assessed value. This "assessed value," however, may only be increased by a maximum of 2% per year, until and unless the property undergoes a change in ownership. At the time of the change in ownership the low assessed value may be reassessed to full current market value which will...
more...
- Paul Buchheit
Yeah once they sell, boom, it'll go up.
- anna sauce
Our Assessor (Seattle/King County) has other things to worry about: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html.... Interestingly enough, I actually went through the assessment appeals process a few years ago. The body that hears appeals is called the "King County Board of Equalization." So 1984.
- Joe Beda
As far as I can tell this property is 100 acres of half-barren hillside (http://maps.google.com/maps...) and it's been on the market for years. Perhaps this $1.5M is just wishful thinking?
- Gabe
It's sale pending, and I doubt it's selling for a whole lot less than the asking price.
- Paul Buchheit
Prop 13: destroying California's public schools now for decades.
- Pete Delucchi
I see someone's already posted the relevant section of Prop 13, showing that property can't be reassessed unless it's sold. Prop 13 sucks.
- Karoli
We just purchased our first home for $100,000 but it's tax assessed for $180,000. I love the idea of limiting tax assess increases until a gain in value is realized. If someone can pull out equity or refinance than increasing assesment would make sense too.
- Christian Burns
What really sucks is to lose your house because your property taxes keep going up and up.
- Todd Hoff
Todd, that's why it would be reasonable to allow people to defer the taxes until the property transacts. That way neither houses nor revenues are lost.
- Paul Buchheit
Prop 13 is a blight on California, robbing it of necessary revenue and leading once vibrant communities to rot from the inside out. Repeal Prop 13! I'll be the first to sign the petition.
- AJ Kohn
Paul if I had 25 years of property tax come due when I sold my house it's likely I would have to pay money out of pocket. Sort of defeats the purpose.
- Todd Hoff
@Todd: If property taxes *had* gone up during the bubble, current homeowners would have stopped the madness and values wouldn't have soared beyond sanity.
- AJ Kohn
If that were so then there would have never been the motivation to pass prop 13 AJ.
- Todd Hoff
81.66/year? Per week? I pay almost that much per day! Still, losing a house because of the tax increase is totally wrong. On the other hand, the idea of deferred taxes seems very reasonable to me.
- ǝuǝƃnǝ
Perhaps LA County has different rules. Here, you can ask your assessor's office to do it or they can be proactive like here in LA and do it for you. We didn't ask for ours be reassessed but due to the economy, they're doing it anyway.
- Anika
Anika, Napa County has also been reassessing homes purchased in the last few years in order to lower their assessments. I think Paul was saying they can't raise it beyond the legal percentage. But they can lower it.
- Anne Bouey
Prop 13 has been very effective. It's taken California from #12 in the nation in per-capita student spending to #50 in only 31 years. Imagine how long it would have taken without it.
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
Another thing that happens here in LA County, when someone makes modifications (renovations) to their home, they get reassessed. That doesn't happen in other counties?
- Anika
Todd: Do you have any numbers to back up the "likely... have to pay money out of pocket" assertion? I don't have any to show you wouldn't... just thought I'd ask before I fire up Excel to see for myself.
- Ken Sheppardson
Paul, it says that it was listed in January of 2007 for $1.5M. Are you saying that nobody thought the undeveloped property was worth buying at the height of the bubble, but 2.5 years later when housing values have gone down 30% and in the middle of a credit crunch it's suddenly worth buying?
- Gabe
Anika, that does happen in other counties. I'd be surprised if it didn't happen in all counties.
- Anne Bouey
@Anika, yes I've never heard of a county in CA where you don't get reassessed when making improvements to your property.
- Jeff P. Henderson
The problem with Prop-13 is that it creates a disincentive to alienate property. On the other hand, the fact that these people are only paying $81.66/year is downright magical. I am happy for them that they are not being robbed by the government more than $81.66 annually. There should be no property taxes at all.
- O.Shane
Paul's right. The sane and sensible way to deal with Prop 13 is to simply allow people to defer any tax beyond the 2% to the equity in the home. This would allow seniors to live in their homes until they die despite any increase in tax. If they sold their house early and realized a gain on the house then they'd have to pay their fair share. If they didn't sell their house and died in...
more...
- Thomas Hawk
This won't be popular but why exactly are we solving for folks who might be unable to afford a home over time? Whether it be taxes or other reasons, there is no inherent right to be in the same place. In fact, I'd argue that it's natural to have this type of turnover. It ensures that neighborhoods remain vibrant and are infused with new families and that home values remain sane through a real supply and demand.
- AJ Kohn
++Thomas. Prop 13 is one of the main reasons I would consider moving from California.
- Cristo
This still bugs me; I wish I knew more about it. Even if the property started out at, say, $100,000, then the 1% tax would be $1,000 annually. There's certainly no place in the Bay area that has a tax rate of .08%. There's some information about this we're not getting; for example, the property may have an agricultural use exemption or something. I don't think it's representative of property taxes in general. Of course, I could be totally wrong, but still…
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
The screenshot shows the assessed value = $5908, general tax = $62.78, and tax rate = 1.0629%
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken if I pay 16K * 25 year what's the probability my house has appreciated more than that? Not much. And it's completely up to circumstance. Hit a high and you might be OK. Hit a low and you are screwed. That's bad policy to me.
- Todd Hoff
Todd, if your house hasn't appreciated, then your taxes will not be significantly more than they would be when you bought it (or what it would be under Prop 13).
- Cristo
Cristo you've accumulated a tax bill every year yet the price of your house fluctuates. If your house goes down in those years you'll still be paying taxes. So when you sell at the end and the price of your house has not appreciated greatly you'll end up with a short sale. You've also made the revenue inflow for the government very unpredictable. They'll need to take out interest paying revenue bonds waiting for those houses to turn over.
- Todd Hoff
Todd, it seems rather unlikely that housing prices go down during a 25 year period, but okay. I'm sure there could be some adjustments made for that. Are you arguing in favor of Prop 13?
- Cristo
Cristo I've just watched my house tumble in price, the thought of being on the hook for a long stream of taxes from high value years without any sort of predictable planning horizon is ulcer producing. That would be like the lotto from hell.
- Todd Hoff
If you live in CA, the reason your house rose so quickly in value was partly because of Prop 13. It disincentivizes people to put their properties on the market because moving causes the sellers to pay more property tax on their new property. This constricts the market, forcing a limited supply, and therefore demand spikes the price of available real estate. Furthermore, property taxes are made higher to bring in revenue from those few properties that are actually paying full price.
- Cristo
The reduction in value of houses is actually a good thing, although maybe not personally if you are caught in the tide. Houses are still way over valued in California, and should be a reasonable multiple of income. (E.g. 23:1 in Palo Alto is not reasonable)
- Cristo
Houses aren't trading cards. People stay in their house because it's their house. In fact, being upwardly mobile trading one house for another even bigger house was perfected here. If it wasn't for that you would probably have even less turnover. And property tax rates in CA are 1.25 percentish which is very low. So they don't pay more tax. What happened before is rates increased while...
more...
- Todd Hoff
They are always areas that are very desirable with outrageous prices. That you can't afford one the most desirable areas of the state shouldn't be unexpected.
- Todd Hoff
Just remember that your focusing on residential -- Prop 13 also applies to commercial property... commercial property doesn't change hands very often. REITs and other entities hold the titles and sit on them for 99 years. Howard Javris the man behind Prop 13 was a commercial property developer.
- david koblas
I am with Shane on this one. Tax income, not property. Why is that I pay a property tax on a necessity like a house but not on, say, a Dali painting in my living room (for the record I own neither)? When I buy a house, that money has been already taxed once. To put things in perspective, I am not a small government supporter. How much to tax and what type of tax are two orthogonal issues.
- Antonio Piccolboni
This is interesting: How High is Your Tax Burden? - http://www.forbes.com/2009... . So we pay 10.5% in CA. Higher than I would like. The average is 9.7%. It's 8.4% in Texas. For 2% I'll take CA. And remember CA year after year has been sending more to the feds than we get back, basically subsidizing the lower rates of the people who...
more...
- Todd Hoff
There is plenty of residential real estate that doesn't exchange hands. There is even a provision to pass real estate onto heirs without increasing property tax. If you plan to stay in your house forever, why do you care if property taxes are assessed against it until you finally pay? Prop 13 is a ripoff for anyone who wants to buy now, rather than 20 years ago.
- Cristo
Cristo obviously because there's a very high probability I will owe more than I'll sell my house for. So under your plan I'll never sell the house. I'll be stuck because the pain of giant balloon payment on sale is too painful.
- Todd Hoff
So lets run the numbers... Suppose you have a property you purchase for $100,000 outright, and we use that value as your tax basis. Further, suppose the tax rate is 1%, and the value appreciates at 5% per year. Prop 13 says the assessed value can go up a maximum of 2% per year. After 25 years the assessed value will be $160,844. The market value will be $322,510. When you sell, you'll have a $222,510 capital gain.
- Ken Sheppardson
In the last year, the difference in property taxes between what you pay under Prop 13 and without will be $1,617, and over 25 years you've paid $15,697 less than you'd have paid without Prop 13. So you're saying, Todd, that you wouldn't be able to come up with that $16K after having just sold your property for $222K more than you paid for it?
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, will you guarantee me a return of 5% a year by volunteering to pay the difference? And will you guarantee the rates don't skyrocket? And the numbers are much larger than 100K.
- Todd Hoff
Nobody has to guarantee you anything. What the market value did in the intervening years is irrelevant. You can just draw a straight line from the $100K to final sale price. Assume constant appreciation, and if that would've generated more property tax than the straight line 2% assessed value appreciation, you pay the difference.
- Ken Sheppardson
If the final sale price after 25 years is $160K... the same as what the assessed value is, you pay nothing.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, you will owe property taxes for every year. It will accumulate. It's not based on the final selling price.
- Todd Hoff
And it doesn't matter if the numbers are larger than 100K. If it's 500K, just multiply everything by five.
- Ken Sheppardson
It matters because you toss 16K like it's nothing. $150K is very different.
- Todd Hoff
I think you're imagining a completely different plan than I am, where somehow somebody's trying to determine the market value every year. I don't like that plan either. That's not what I'm talking about. I explained the plan I'm imagining a couple comments up.
- Ken Sheppardson
And yes, if the numbers are 10x... You buy a property for $1M and sell it for $3.2M, realized a $2.2M gain and pay a $160K tax bill. Those numbers are, in fact, very different. By a factor of 10.
- Ken Sheppardson
@Todd: If houses aren't trading cards then why are you worried about the appreciation versus property tax argument? Property taxes should be in line with the value of your home. If the value of your home goes down get it reassessed and pay less property tax. Am I missing something? Property taxes are part of buying a home.
- AJ Kohn
How about this - the insurance company will reimburse housing damages based on your purchase price, not current value. So when your home burns to the ground, if you bought it in 1982 for $150K you'll get that back today. That's the essential inversion of Prop 13 - and I doubt highly that many would enjoy that system.
- AJ Kohn
These "defer the tax" proposals all implicitly assume the house must be worth more when it's sold.
- Andrew C
Property taxes mean that it's not really your house, you really just rent it from the government.
- Christian Burns
On the flip side, do they lower property taxes when the value of the house goes down?
- Morton Fox
Yes, they do lower the tax when it goes down. Some counties reassess automatically, but all counties will do so if the owner requests it. When the tax is lowered I'm unsure if it can then only increase at the 2% rate, or if it is allowed to go back up to its previous high before the prop13 limit kicks in.
- DGentry
Here's an answer for Todd's problem, (which I think is unlikely, btw, and not the reason given for Prop 13). He can pay the property tax on his place when he sells it at the rate it's worth at the time he sells it. So any taxes owed, will be amortized over the time his house was owned by him. If the market is down (and even if it was up before) he is still okay. Right?
- Cristo
OK, here's what I still don't get. I'm going to pull numbers out of a hat here. What if he bought his house in, say, 2000 for $300K, it went up to $500K at the height of the bubble, and now is back to $300K, but he's got to sell because he's moving. He realizes no profit - in fact with inflation he's lost money, let's ignore that - but not only does he owe a pile of property tax, the...
more...
- Andrew C
That's what I was suggesting, Andrew. You only pay property tax consistent with the realized gain, not the intermediate market value. I don't know if that's a real proposal anybody's considering, or just a though experiment based on Paul mentioning the idea about. In a sense, it's just a local capital gains tax, which you could give some fancy name like "Deferred Property Tax Recovery Fee" or something.
- Ken Sheppardson
Since we're making up the rules for a prop-13 replacement, we can easily refine them to eliminate the "what if I owe more than my house is worth" cases. For example, we could use the sales price to back-compute owed taxes assuming a constant rate of appreciation instead, and completely ignore intermediate market values, so that a temporary bubble will have to effect on your tax bill. We...
more...
- Paul Buchheit
++Paul. I was trying to say this, but you were much more eloquent.
- Cristo
Are we not paying property taxes on a bi-annual basis?
- AJ Kohn
AJ, your bi-annual payment could remain at the current prop-13 capped rate (2% annual appreciation), and the "market value" deferred taxes would not be due until sale.
- Paul Buchheit
@Paul: Okay, understood. I missed that part of the equation. Would that be the grandfather way to deal with Prop 13, with all new purchases simply adhering to non-Prop 13 property tax assessments?
- AJ Kohn
AJ, the new rule would apply to everyone. The idea is to keep the best of prop-13 (grandma doesn't get kicked out of her house due to rising property taxes) but to recapture the lost revenue and restore fairness so that new homeowners aren't having to shoulder the majority of the tax burden.
- Paul Buchheit
@Paul: I guess I'm a bit more radical. Keeping 'grandma' there simply might not be the best solution. Communities need natural turnover. I'm for some tax remediation based on age - as is done in other states - but it should be based off the current rate and ensure that we're not keeping those who should probably downsize or relocate. I'm guessing I sound callous but should we really keep classes of people in their homes through different structures?
- AJ Kohn
AJ, the problem is we already have Prop 13, so it would have to be sugar-coated to have any chance of passing. Even then, it's so widely liked (because there's a large percentage of voters that benefit from it) that it would be very difficult to overturn.
- Cristo
@Chris: Agreed, it's difficult because so many people *do* benefit from it. Though ... at this point, if you repealed it ... there's a chance that a majority of homeowners would actually pay less in property taxes. Where's the data on this? Who's modeled it? Get someone on it! Because if you could say that 70% of homeowners would pay less property tax, well ... I think we might have something. (Certainly might be the case for homeowners if this applied to business property as well.)
- AJ Kohn
@Ken - ah. I don't think I like that all that much, honestly.
- Andrew C
@AJ, I'm not sure how I feel about Prop 13, but I am certain that your arguments about it's role in promoting the bubble don't stand up to scrutiny. If it's bad policy, fine. But combat it with good analysis. I'm not seeing much of that in this discussion.
- Forrest Cox
I personally fail to understand why everyone loves to complain about revenue - the state is being "robbed" of this, the community is being "deprived" of that. That problem California - and most of the rest of the country, if not world - has is a SPENDING problem, NOT a REVENUE problem. California's public sector is an enormously inefficient waste of productive resources. Therein lies...
more...
- Forrest Cox
I could be convinced that it's a spending problem, but I would have to see the figures.
- Andrew C
The amount they're paying is based on the original purchase price, right -- which given how low it is, would be from years and years ago. If so, then the sale "correct" that issue. But really, while Prop 13 cost the state tons in revenue, it's also a pretty absurd way to tax people -- on home value. The home has no value until it is sold. It would be like having to pay a huge tax on a...
more...
- dannysullivan
Danny: RE "It would be like having to pay a huge tax on a stock "gain" if you had stock that went up one year but never was actually sold." -- We have that. It's called AMT :-/
- Ken Sheppardson
Nobody likes paying taxes, but there has to be some revenue to operate the state. Whenever anybody brings up taxes, it's always that particular tax that is absurd.
- Cristo
Besides, technically, you can extract value from your home before selling it. HELOCs, etc.
- Andrew C
Of all the tweets one could ever post, this is by far the most beautiful. Thank you for sharing the moment with us so we could celebrate life with you. Congratulations!
- Eric Traub
HOO-RAY!!!! Congratulations, Tamar. :)
- Steven Perez
I will be there in September again. I can't wait to see your baby! And Milan needs more friends. And Scobleizer3.0 needs more mentors! :-) Enjoy every day, it goes so fast!
- Robert Scoble
I don't know you, Tamar, but you still get a mazel tov! (You're on my FF via other folks I follow.) Much health & happiness to you & your family.....
- Alan Mairson
now I ved seen everything on Twitter!
- Diva of Dish
Awesome congrats! I like how you let us know that you, baby AND daddy are doin OK. We know how daddys have a hard time sometimes! LOL jk Congrats to all!
- Manny
CONGRATULATIONS! Yay to the new family!
- Anna Lynn M.
Robert, you're bringing Milan to NYC in October? Nice. :)
- Tamar Weinberg
How did that rumor start? Nope, no Milan to NYC.
- Robert Scoble
oh, no play dates then as I probably won't be traveling to anywhere in a long time!
- Tamar Weinberg
Hey Tamar your baby is "liked" by over 220 people and it's just a few days into this world, not too shabby.
- Steve C
Baby boy is resting on mommy's chest as she leans back on a chair updating her FriendFeed. As for the other questions... he doesn't have a name yet. His Bris will be Thursday and we'll name him during the ceremony. The only video the hubby took was me calling his great grandma while the doctor was yelling at me to put my phone down (no, I couldn't actually tweet that I was pushing. I did it as soon as I could!) ;) Weight: 5lb 14oz at birth.
- Tamar Weinberg
This is a great kyte cast. Is that the right word for it? I'm always trying to figure out the best way to utilize these social sites to proper filter out the garbage for the nuggets.
- Daniel Norton
To learn how to use Friendfeed effectively, where do you suggest starting? Watching your video here and interested in leveraging its capabilities so would like to know a good way to get my feet wet here.
- Lyn Graft
You should do a similar one on just Friendfeed, try to get more people over here :)
- Simon Wicks
Robert that was great. Thanks for doing the video! Can you do one on Friendfeed like Simon asked? I think that would be very helpful! :)
- Daynah
Thanks for sharing - good segment. Now I just need more time in the day! Can you do any split screen interviews like the Peter Himmelman show a few weeks ago?
- Lyn Graft
I like tweetdeck a lot but I can't live without navigation w/keyboard and the two-fingers horiz scroll so they really need to get this for me to definitely switch!
- Jean-Charles VERDIE
from twhirl
I missed the Friendfeed one, thanks for the link again Robert
- Simon Wicks
This is really helpful. Sco. I like the "media snack" term. And "attention thief." Would like to see your GTD vid when you do it. And less so your google reader one. Search.twiiter.com. And generally how you drink valuable memes from the firehose is helpful. Is there a "channel" of these vids from you? "Feedly.com" I couldn't parse the verbal- google grabbed it based on sound.
- moon_shadow70
I'm finding kyte interface a bit annoying cause I paused and walked away and can't just reload to where I was!!!! (is it me?) Arg, I may redo the first 15+ minutes.
- moon_shadow70
It would be helpful to have your "must follow" list in non-verbal format that was too fast.And Kyte's rewind is way too inexact to keep rewinding it. Thanks. :-)
- moon_shadow70
Has this changed in recent times? I heard on the gilmore gang that 90% of your friends are on FF, so is twitter still as prominent?
- Chris Lloyd
Chris Twitter is becoming less important.
- Robert Scoble
I am more aware of that than most of the late adopters I know who take their clues from people like Oprah. Can you tell me the market share numbers of Facebook, Twitter, and friendfeed? I can. Most around me can't. Your point is wrong.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, the 140 limit impaired my thought. I'll stand by my tweet with one modification. The curse and danger of being an early adopter is the POTENTIAL of a disconnect w/the mass, a blindness to real-world context. Respect that you know the market shares of apps, as do I, and agree that most around any of us don't know which actually serves to make my point.
- Dave Martin
Dave: thanks, yeah, it's why I get so mad when people tell me that the simplicity of Twitter is making it win. It hasn't won yet. It has 30 million. Facebook added that many people in the past six weeks and Facebook is more complex than friendfeed. Most people have no clue about how these things get popular and assume that because Oprah is talking about it that it's the biggest one out...
more...
- Robert Scoble
Which often translates into trying to make me seem some sort of weirdo or outlier. I hate that too, because it often means that people want to stick with their old crappy way of doing something and don't want to consider there's a new better way.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, respect and understand your pov. The dirty little secret might turn out to be this...MS, FB, Twitter and FF are all just crude first gen tools that we are using on the way to a much different world, a new era wherein communication will be redefined in radical and revolutionary approaches that we not able to grasp. This and other possibilities make these times the most...
more...
- Dave Martin
Two points: 1) Maybe I'm wrong about this Robert, but that Tweet wasn't directly at only you. I've been around for some time as well + while I can't give you the market share on the companies, I've seen enough to know that many folks in the tech/news space *don't* understand how the tech will be "mainstreamed" and get caught in the hype; and 2) I don't think you meant your post this...
more...
- Brad_King
you can still be an early adopter and be blind to the masses.. knowing the take up figures, expansion figures and churn rates of a service does no mean you are immune to being blind to how the masses move. I could tell you that a massive amount of facebook users are fed up with the system and you'd never know that based on the pure figures alone. Context is certainly king, but it's...
more...
- alphaxion
alphaxion: the masses almost ALWAYS follow early adopter behavior. I was among the first to get onto ICQ and one of the first ones to get off of it, too. I look at these things as tides. Are the tides moving toward the service or away from it?
- Robert Scoble
The first waves to wash up on a new beach are oblivious often to the waves that will wash up on that same beach three years from now.
- Robert Scoble
Me? I keep in touch with the real world by traveling and meeting normal people and watching their behavior. Most business people still use Microsoft Office, for instance, but I've just recently started seeing business people using Google's Docs and Spreadsheets. That was an interesting obvservation. The tides are moving!
- Robert Scoble
Can't the "masses" be the ones who are disconnected? Just because early adopters believe that they see the future of things in presently evolving technologies doesn't disconnect them from reality. Almost by definition, innovators and creators are disconnected from the masses. In fact, it's a duty in some regards.
- phil baumann
Phil: absolutely true, but the masses usually get pulled in by something. Either their boss forces them to use some new technology (which is how many people got onto email or IM) or their family forces them to use some new technology (I know many people who wanted to see pictures of their grandkids, so they got pulled into Facebook) or they get pulled in by celebrities who are talking...
more...
- Robert Scoble
Robert: I suppose a great deal of who we call masses are peeps who just want to live their lives as they know it. So ventures are well advised to find out what nudges are needed to get them to tie products to what they're familiar with. That's usually something very simple (as in your examples); and perhaps that's why it can be hard to figure out (front-of-nose syndrome).
- phil baumann
Phil: and sometimes you just need to do something for yourself and screw the rest of the world. That's what Woz did with his Apple I. He didn't expect it to go mainstream. He just wanted to build his own computer for himself. The best innovations are like that. Then society changes to match that innovation because they see value in it.
- Robert Scoble
Phil, one aspect of early adopter behavior that deserves discussion is the penchant for the "dead" meme (e.g., RSS is dead, MS Office is dead, radio is dead, TV is dead). While some early adopters may move on - as Robert suggests with his Google docs example - it does not mean that mass abandonment is underway. Truth be known, we have all fallen in love with first generation apps that...
more...
- Dave Martin
I have to deal with just that in the presentation I am making for My Name is E. The platform, apps and connector for starters solve a problem (or make a hassle easier) that the people we want to tell it do not have (being on all kind of different social platforms, and wanting to connect easily, and having contact data for the rest of your life). And then there is out-of-this-world...
more...
- Ruud van Wijngaarden
Those that proffer the "dead" meme are, in fact, suggesting that they are somehow able to time the mass market. Clearly, the facts do not support any such ability. Witness the four hundred year death spiral of newspapers. Certainly the dead tree guys are fighting for their lives and many are hearing the death rattle but some (incl Rupert & co) are dedicating themselves to the rethink required to somehow survive in the brave new world.
- Dave Martin
Dave - I guess we can say there are different kind of early adopters. Some just see ways to make the world a better place and get passionate about what they think will serve that purpose. Others may just adopt for the sake of adopting, without a deep regard for a focused purpose. Those are the ones who probably enjoy delivering eulogies.
- phil baumann
@robert and I'm betting you signed up to many services that never reached the mainstream. It's the nostradamus effect. Some of the things you sign up to early do reach mainstream, some don't. Doesn't mean you're prognosticating everything they go to. Tell me, how active are you on habbo hotel? cause there's a shit load of people on that service. How about Bebo? Malple Story?
- alphaxion
Phil a lot of the "dead" talk is just to get a fight going, which aggregates attention.
- Robert Scoble
@Phil, Robert: I find those who harbor over "death" generally don't have anything to say about what *will* work. That's Robert's great strength - focusing on what and why something *can* work. Far more interesting to read about. (I will retire now to listen to that dead medium, the radio.)
- Brad_King
alphaxion: I have tried a TON of things in the past, but I only get excited by a small handful and when I get excited by something the percentage of times those go mainstream is very high. I was the first one to do a web page for ICQ (which got me invited to Davos, by the way). I was early on blogging. I was early on email. I was early on the web. I was early on Google (begged my dad...
more...
- Robert Scoble
I do miss things, by the way. I missed Del.icio.us (I didn't need it, I had my blog to bookmark things). But that's OK, I usually do note that those things are getting popular with others (that's one reason why I watch crowds of early adopters so I can understand what their behavior is and how it differs from mine).
- Robert Scoble
Robert is exactly correct on the "dead" talk - it's the noise of the agent provocateur. Sad that it remains a time tested approach to getting attention. We live in a world where it remains far easier to throw bricks than to use them to build anything of substance.
- Dave Martin
Dave: no one pays attention to the geek in the science lab but everyone pays attention to the fight in the quad. That behavior is not about to change anytime soon.
- Robert Scoble
Early adopters are also often early dabblers who don't put the effort in to find the depth of value in a service. I know I was guilty of that we FF for a very long time. We try on new things and gravitate toward those that are most comfortable to us for reasons we may not even know ourselves. Sometimes we land in a particular service because that's where our comfort zone of friends and...
more...
- Ken Camp
@Robert: here's where we diverge, in thinking that we are early adopters. Email dates back to the 60s at MIT + I was using it (with scads of others) in the early 80s (I was 12 so I'm sure it had be around in great use before that - I have skipped the 70s but know there is a giant whole in my knowledge there). And blogging is simply an application - BBS and such have been here long before even WE came on the scene. -- of course my point actually validates your "tides" point earlier.
- Brad_King
Brad: of course you are right. I was actually the 65,561st user of ICQ. I was about as late to Twitter. A little earlier than that to friendfeed, but Louis Gray beat me by about five months. I just look for doubling pennies and hop in front of the parade before most people recognize a parade has formed. :-)
- Robert Scoble
@Robert: I know, that was totally a nerd point (and frankly irrelevant - just a touchstone issue with me). You are of course one of the parade-leaders. I don't mean to imply otherwise. I think that was the academic (*gasp*) side of me + the journalist, cringing at "first" or "one of the first". *sighs* Just ignore me :)
- Brad_King
@robert so were a hell of a lot of other people, I'm not denying the amount of work you do to help foster an increased number of people joining whatever is new. I thank you for it :) I'm just saying that it's more of a shotgun approach rather than sniper when it comes to these services. Early adopters will sign up to so many services that some of them are bound to go mainstream. It...
more...
- alphaxion
Part of being an early adopter is recognizing that most of the world is NOT on these services. Our role is to investigate and evangelize.
- Louis Gray
I think the discussion of blindness and disconnect is wrong. We know there are different adoption rates and social circles.
- Louis Gray
Investigate, test, find that the tool fits the needs, and then evangelize.
- Zackatoustra
Seems to me the one thing most difficult for early adopters to say out loud is "I don't know" as it appears everyone has an opinion and stands willing to defend their handicapping of future odds of any new venture and/or interpret as proof of their case some small sample of early data. Since batting averages are not easily available the wrong are allowed to make repeated failed...
more...
- Dave Martin
Dave, who are the early adopters you are talking about? One thing I tend to do is write up summaries that show when I was right or wrong - and we try not to make big prognostications. We use the tools and say where they are useful.
- Louis Gray
Louis, my reference is made to "the usual suspects." While your disclosures have earned you a well deserved respect, too many others (e.g., those that would proffer a "dead" meme to get attention) are trading on the potential gains of immediate attention without regard to the intellectual honesty of their argument.
- Dave Martin
Louis is correct. I say all the time that I don't know how things will turn out. Google might release a killer real time search engine tomorrow that gets me to switch from friendfeed. One thing you'll see with me, though, is I will push the best of breed and if someone can demonstrate something is better than what I'm doing (you can see what I'm using on Wakoopa) then I'd love to hear about it.
- Robert Scoble
@robert which is all any of us can do really :) I just don't agree with the notion that because any of us early adopt and that service hits mainstream that any of us called it. We can only say "this was cool/useful" and/or "you should try this, you might like it more". There is no connect, just a best guess.
- alphaxion
alphaxion, spot-on! best guesses are all any one of us has beyond our opinions, perceptions, attitudes and beliefs.
- Dave Martin
alphaxion in my career I have regularly gotten excited before most other people I know about some things. Most of the time those things get very big. A year ago how many of you were pushing everyone around them onto friendfeed? A few were but most were calling me stupid. Or worse. Arrington in December said I needed an intervention.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, take heart and lead on, please keep in mind the scenery only changes for the lead dog. It was ever thus.
- Dave Martin
Dave: that's why I jump in front of the parade. :-)
- Robert Scoble
@robert a year ago I was applying for a job position with rocketboom that was advertised on friendfeed. That was my introduction to this place ;) crap was it that long ago now, I miss writing with them. That and I still want andrew to find vertical slice cool enough to add it to the rocketboom stable... but personal wishes aside, I still think it's more a case of stumbling across the...
more...
- alphaxion
Steve, I love that I made a cameo in your post. I only wish my short URL was more inspired.
- Scott Gatz
Finally! Yay! Wish Twitter had this a long time ago. That's the reason I never use full links that get converted. I change the www. to w3 .website.com and that way everyone can see the full link still and copy and paste it if they want to view the site. I got annoyed at clicking on duplicate TinyURLs.
- Adam
I use the greasemonkey script tinyurl-ru at http://kapranoff.ru/friendf... but it only covers tinyurl.com and tinyurl.ru | Maybe we should do a community project that keeps updating that script with all those url-shorteners out there. | Alex, are you game?
- ĎÚβĨŐÚŚ Dod
Is this a feature that friendfeed removed? Because it's not working in Chrome.
- James Poling
I don't see any short URL's in FriendFeed anymore. all are automatically expanded.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
“With a bit of personality and fun, an infographic can become a distinctive and charming way for the viewer to learn and access data. The most important aspect is the underlying message – the primary information that is being illustrated.”
- Anthony Citrano
Recovering the data has proven to be very difficult, requiring technological archeology. The only working version of the Ampex tape player ($300K when new) was discovered in a chicken coop and restored with the help of the original designer. There is only one person on Earth who still refurbishes these tape heads, and he is retiring this year. The skills to read this data archive are on the cusp of disappearing forever.
- mathew ingram
This is a perfect example of what Terry Cook wrote about in "It's 10 o'clock: do you know where your data are?" -- back in 1995 -- http://web.mit.edu/erm...
- Victor Panlilio
"It was the end of this June when amateur photographer Sandra Critelli, who was looking for whale sharks, found herself in the right place at the right time to experienced nature at its best. Her boat was surrounded by thousands of rays swimming together like autumn leaves floating in a sunlit pond... gently moved by the wind. The images speak for themselves. The spectacular scene was captured as the magnificent creatures made one of their biannual mass migrations to more agreeable waters as they follow the clockwise current from Mexico's Yucatan peninsula to western Florida in schools of as many as 10,000."
- April Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
Daniel, the video is from SXSW, filmed by Morgan Brown. Topics include information overload (or lack thereof), real-time Web, aggregation, etc.
- Louis Gray
dropping science like gallileo dropped the orange!
- Morgan Haley
I love when they tell you when they're going to do a big ticket delivery (or cable guy appointment). "They will be there anywhere between, umm, oh lets say Tuesday at 7AM to Friday at 5:30PM"
- mikepk
Pfft! I've waited 48 hours straight for the #$(!%&#($) cable guy before. 8a-9p window, two days in a row? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Gillmor, is anyone from the FF team on your show this afternoon?
- Thomas Hawk
My guess would be he's probably been tired since Friday or so, Chris. :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
yes Paul Buchheit will be on Gilmor Gang at 4PM Pacific streamed on Twit.TV live
- Steve Gillmor
I can barely hear what Leo is saying.
- Dave Winer
Leo's spent the last few days trying to recover from a tricaster failure and has been tweaking levels on different services, getting resolutions reset on feeds, etc. The ustream feed seems to have the best audio at the moment: http://www.ustream.tv/channel...
- Ken Sheppardson
Paul Buchheit, Mike Arrington, Scoble, Dan Farber, Andrew Keen, and Kevin Marks.
- Ken Sheppardson
Mike says he's writing an article right now: "FriendFeed is in danger of becoming the coolest app no one uses"
- Ken Sheppardson
Mike sorta declares FF missed the boat and won't be able to overcome Twitter's lead/network effects. Paul's trying to defend the fact that they can/should be more than one company in the space.
- Ken Sheppardson
This realtime discussion is amazing... instant realtime chat room!
- Adnan
Mike is missing the standards conversation
- Kevin Marks
Thomas, it's great. I did turn off the replies to Twitter feature though...
- Karoli
Live blogging events pretty much changed overnight.
- Ken Sheppardson
I'd love to ask Paul, will there be any chance to give people the choice for run-Time instead of forcing it onto people. That's what I didn't like. Leave it an option.
- Mol, Time Warping
That's actually a really good point: "Celebrities aren't coming to Twitter for conversation."
- Kevin Fox
I agree with Paul, personally I'm not interested in celebrities and Twitter has very little appeal for me. I'm far more interested in interesting tech and photography and for that FF is far more interesting a place.
- Thomas Hawk
Molly, just hit pause and manually refresh
- Karoli
The comment box needs to be above the comment stream so it doesn't get pushed of the bottom of the window if a couple of people post comments while you're typing.
- Phil Maxwell
Kevin: Ask what FF's runway looks like, will ya?
- Ken Sheppardson
Can't wait to hear it. When will it post to the web.
- Tom Parish
I am not giving Twitter or Facebook my content. They keep it
- Karoli
It would be interesting to pick any two: FriendFeed, Facebook, or Twitter, and assign those two arbitrary user counts where one had 10x the other, and then try to make the argument of how the underdog was doomed, or would eclipse the larger site.
- Kevin Fox
I can't understand why it's always a choice between FriendFeed or Twitter and not a choice between Facebook or Twitter. Boggles my mind
- Bwana ☠
When FriendFeed will tip: When people get sick of duplicating themselves across FB, Twitter, Flickr, Disqus, BackType, etc.
- Karoli
There are tautological arguments. Twitter is superior to Friendfeed because it's simple, but Facebook is superior to Twitter because it has more functionality.
- Kevin Fox
I don't think a direct 1-to-1 comparison of users is fair. Does a twitter user have the same value as a FF user under all the possible monitization schemes you can imagine?
- Ken Sheppardson
*sarcastic tone* Yeah get Paul off the line so we can trash FF. *rolls eyes*
- Mol, Time Warping
FF is far superior to either for two simple reasons. 1. It's far better for conversations. 2. Visual representation is significant and in many ways can be more relevant than text alone.
- Thomas Hawk
I prefer friendfeed over twitter because it allows a conversation to beuch less fragmented. I can see the whole conversation rather than having to jump all over the place to pick up what is being said. Twitter is one on one im and not the group chat I prefer
- Iain
Mike has a very typical biz/VC approach to this it seems. Sorta limits the scope of what one sees it seems.
- Ken Sheppardson
We have real-time web around a real-time video show...
- Bwana ☠
When Paul says multiple services converging... does that mean he sees friendfeed, facebook and twitter eventually having the same functionality?
- Adnan
Adnon: No, it means he sees interoperability and a free flow of data between them.
- Ken Sheppardson
Adnan, since Facebook seems to copy everything FriendFeed does anyway... :)
- Karoli
Back in my day, we called this IRC... kinda cool it's on the web now
- Bwana ☠
"Why would you want a private room?" Because some people have friends in real life that they want to share with and not worry about random people on the internets messing it up
- Pat Hawks
Bwana: And we can search it, link to it, hop off form it into peoples' other stuff, etc.
- Ken Sheppardson
Adnan: Matt Cutts and Paul were talking about OpenSocial last Friday night... keep your eyes open.
- Ken Sheppardson
On Twitter, I know 50 people are telling other people to listen to Gillmore Gang. On Friendfeed there are several active conversations in realtime *about* the things that are being discussed on the show right now.
- Kevin Fox
Google at one point was far smaller than Yahoo. And then Google came along with better tech. Sometimes you actually can build a better mousetrap.
- Thomas Hawk
see how this realtime is limited to this thread....Guess what else can do that... LISTS!!
- Bwana ☠
friendfeed has metadata because they don't strip it from the incoming sources - twitter strips all of it but the source and the 140 characters
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Lists of comments provide much more semantic connectivity than @ signs on Twitter
- Ken Sheppardson
@Bwana we will get use to it or find better ways to use it. It's just day 1 on this.
- Martin Añazco
someone in the chat room just said short statement metadata is useless. LOL.
- Karoli
@Ahmed I was hoping someone would say that.
- Karoli
Scoble's really on today. Making very good points.
- Thomas Hawk
Bwana, that is where I am, but old comments perhaps should be pushed away by new comments... right now, new comments push away the comment box instead.
- Philipp Lenssen
Here it is again...Explain again Robert lol
- Bwana ☠
if you have comments and likes!! you can filter!!!!!
- Ed Dale
Scoble knows how FF works far more than Arrington does.
- Thomas Hawk
meta data is sadly not a celebrity word :-)
- Ed Dale
Ken...but still, what if we want to communicate from FF. I have to leave to reply, can't send likes there. Even if it's not huge, it would center everything on FF
- Karoli
SOMEBODY get this link in front of Mike!
- Pat Hawks
Scobles been put on the spot so many times, he's improved all his arguments over time! :)
- Adnan
Ed - Let's make a cute name for it.. "Meta Meta" or "MoMeta"
- Bwana ☠
I like how the company founder just sits back and let's Scoble explain stuff. Robert is FriendFeed's "Goose", re the Top Gun analogy earlier today.
- Ken Sheppardson
@Karoli I think he is just on the show to make people angry...
- Ahmed
Oohh also, use the scroll function in the browser, activated using the mousewheel/mousebutton3 and just set it to scroll to the bottom of the page, once it hits the last item, it won't scroll until a new item is added by friendfeed.
- Viran
Ed, I disagree. The Twitterati lists combined with lack of track mean it will be elitist. that's how they want it. Like Google weighting toward corporate sites in their results
- Karoli
Sometiemes trolls are nice to have around.
- Thomas Hawk
I'm on Twitter because my site's readers are there, too.
- Chris Baskind
Chrome seems to handle the ajax in a little smoother way on the thread page
- Amyloo
wow, this is long. I like the trend with FF. They just need to give me some numbers that will boost my ego and I'll switch over.
- Nick Gonzalez
Chris: I thought a troll was somebody who tried to incite you into responding.
- Ken Sheppardson
@Philipp Lenssen Same issue here. I need to scroll down constantly to play catch up with the ever growing conversation. Hopefully there will be a fix for that.
- Rolf Schewe
Mike, this could never happen on Twitter.
- Thomas Hawk
So how does the plugging of networks happen? Open Social? Why won't they talk about that?
- Adnan
Yeah a comment button on the BOTTOM of the feed!!!!!!!!!!!!1 yeah! thanks for listening to my request for this earlier today!!!!1 woooo hooo!
- Susan Beebe
twitter and friendfeed work well together
- Ed Dale
REALTIME BLOG -- Try real time comments when people aren't on your blog using IM for the hundreds of millions of people on their desktop
- Angus Logan
So we've went from it'll fail, to "I want this"
- Bwana ☠
Ok must go... hubby wants BEEEEEEEER :) sorry to hit and run
- Susan Beebe
Susan: Yes, when you're viewing an individual post.
- Ken Sheppardson
I will crush the enemy social media and drive them before me and hear the lament of their users.
- Moved to Facebook
The summary: Twitter has already changed the game. FF could maybe change the game, but whether it will remains to be seen. We are still in the early stages of how this stuff works. Obviously, Twitter and FF (and dozens of other services) aren't mutually exclusive.
- Albert Willis
will be fun to read while listening to the recording, though
- Amyloo
I do agree with Arrington: realtime FF is nice, but is it the game changer that Steve Gilmore's post implied? Not yet--at least not for most people.
- Albert Willis
less than a month... and with full keyboard shortcuts!
- Jérôme Flipo
You need to promote it to your niches - Thomas to Photographer for example :-)
- Ed Dale
I like how a comment thread is also a topic oriented chat room that can be archived and linked to unlike traditional chat room conversations that disappear once you close them.
- Rolf Schewe
Philipp: Each person could eal with them individually: block
- Ken Sheppardson
Everybody can make their own judgement what's spam
- Ken Sheppardson
Rolf - Yeah this is a lot more IRC-feeling isn't it.
- Mitch
I've had this running as the lead items on my Flickr page all day. I'm trying to promote FF at Flickr and other photography related places as much as I can. Love seeing great photos on FF.
- Thomas Hawk
is direct message here a new thing, or just something i never noticed?
- Amyloo
this doesnt auto scroll on Mac/Firefox FYI ... i have to keep scrolling to catch up
- Garys Wine
@Daniel Boehmisch I thought so, others may disagree, but I am going to give it a try over the next few days and see how smooth it runs...but I agree a dedicated app would probably be better
- Jeffrey Marsh
Watching this on post on Twit.tv while watching it on Friendfeed. Yo Dawg...
- Eric @ CS Techcast
there's been very little spam in FF. When you do see it it's almost sort of fun.
- Thomas Hawk
Well, Ed, but in threads like this you see everybody. Not just the folks you're following.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ed, I was talking about specific comments in this thread, which show even when you're not following the person... and I didn't notice any block button when hovering over a name.
- Philipp Lenssen
All thats missing is a realtime list of whos all currently viewing this page.
- Tony, Paradox of FF
@Bwana are going to make a tutorial on how to use Filters???
- Ahmed
lol 16 new results on "Gillmor Gang" on Twitter since Kevin Fox posted it.... and 200 new comments here. We win.
- Bwana ☠
Twhirl client shipping tomorrow: looking foward to see what it does!
- Patrick Chanezon
I tell you what, next time I liveblog something, I'm just opening up a FF thread and going to town.
- Phil G
I've managed to read everything, but could not parse the voice. will have to listen to recording
- Amyloo
Editable chat rooms ... the wave of the future!
- Garys Wine
I'm with Andrew Keen on this one. I find this all hard to understand, and therefore tiresome. So there. I want something simple and compelling
- Francine Hardaway
from IM
yes, we have the swarm/river/whatever... now we need to figure out how to give users the ability to manage scarce attention.
- Brian Roy
You can scan friendfeed but how do you scan a discussion thread such as this?
- Adnan
Jérôme, you're giving me an idea about animated ASCII art here :)
- Philipp Lenssen
will this thin thread just keep digging down until it hits china?
- clewellyn
That window issue sounds like it would be tough on the Android
- Keith Barrett
Shoot. I have to go to work yet. Is lunch over yet?
- Ken Sheppardson
im still using cleaner friendfeed V2 bc the beta cleaner doesnt look much better than the beta ui, aside from what V2 already does.
- Tony, Paradox of FF
I tried the FF Facebook app. 1. It looks abandoned, and 2. I see Facebook as a subset of my overall social content and FriendFeed as my hub.
- Rolf Schewe
We had similar problems with the last Beta Friendfeed release, Digg says "This link does not appear to be a working link. Please check the URL and try again." Friendfeed might be sending the wrong http header for Digg.
- Philipp Lenssen
63283 chars of minified javascript: nice job Bret!
- Patrick Chanezon
digg submit didn't work, even with link from friendfeed.com (not beta)
- jcunwired
"Twitter is currently down for unscheduled maintenance". We did it, didn't we?
- Jérôme Flipo