from what you said, i get that you don't seem to think these generals have attempted a coup d'etat (as put forth by nokta magazine which was immediately suspended), the republican protests weren't arranged by these ex-military men like eruygur, what's more all the phone calls published in the newspapers between ex-military/politicians/criminals are fake? if you remember the first to get arrested were people like kemal kerincsiz who in a way were indirectly responsible for the death of Hrant Dink with all their supranationalist 301 bullshit . from the outside it might seem like a political move from AKP and indeed it is, but don't forget that most of these ex-military fascists are also a threat against civil/democratic and peaceful turkey. - mersenne

mersenne; where do i sign? oh, and thread and threat are two completely different things. and what is AKP police? Blah! - muzo from Alert Thingy

Kemal. amen to that! - berkay

@mersenne, @KemalYaylali, @berkay there are two type of conservatism in action here. One is nationalist, the other is islamist. Nationalists are obviously the army, islamists are the Naksibendi + Fethullah neoliberalists, which are represented by the current ruling party AKP. Do you agree with this picture? - Burak Arikan

@muzo that's a typo. - Burak Arikan

I'm suprised that why did not they take me also? - Selim Yoruk

@KemalYaylali I read elsewhere that since September 12th, 1980 coupe islamist politics has been infiltrating in the government. It has some nationalism mixed in here and there of course. I am trying to bring this dichotomy in to the discussion because there is not much reference point left at this point. We got to start somewhere. If we have a coup d'etat tomorrow, it will be the result of a fight between islamists (naksibendi+fethullah) and nationalists. It will not be about you and me, or other citizens. - Burak Arikan

@Burak, in a way there seems to be 2 camps, i'm not convinced that Erdogan is a freedom fighter he seems to be just working for his own people's freedom yet the other camp is spewing out nationalist/isolationist/downright fascist hate all the time it's virtually impossible to make politics anymore. However the thing is although there might be a political bent on this, these people have committed crimes, it's said that the Ergenekon case is a whopping total of 4million pages... - mersenne

There's also lots of concrete evidence like bombs, manifestos, phone records, photographs and so on. Just today I watched this : http://www.dailymotion.com/video..., that's why i don't find it hard to believe the "ergenekon" case.. - mersenne

@burak I don't see enough evidence to brand the effort against ergenekon as islamists as you put it. I agree that there is a struggle for power between 2 groups, the republican elite/establishment and the edge. As far as I can see, the edge (read AKP, islamist conservatives, whatever) are content to fight within the realm of democracy as they are confident that they will win the popular fight. The establishment no longer thinks it can win democratically, hence exploring alternatives including a coup. - berkay

@mersenne I totally agree that people like Veli Küçük and all that mafia ergenekon outliers should be cleaned up. But today ergenekon became an instrument for AKP, an instrument to protect their own illegal actions. However, what is worse than these (nationalists vs. naksibendi+fethullah) is that I am afraid Turkey is now in a Friedmanist shock therapy. - Burak Arikan

@mersenne this video is quite hardcore, how did you find this "Havacı Paşadan şok açıklamlar" http://www.dailymotion.com/video... - Burak Arikan

!!video!! - Erhan Erdogan

@berkay, @mersenne since army has the indisputable brute force, AKP is trying to protect itself (not the democracy), probably trying to use the ergenekon operation against it. However, at the end both actions (coup vs. blurry politics) is against us, the citizens of Turkey. - Burak Arikan

@Burak, I agree AKP is doing this to protect itself. They had opportunities to be democracy champions by protecting democracy and human rights and they blew it. But does that matter? if AKP sees its survival within democratic system, so be it. Our future lies with EU (whether we're in it or not) and as long as AKP sees it future in line with more democratic Turkey that is aligned with EU, it's our best option. I don't see any alternatives that are even remotely attractive. - berkay

@KemalYaylali what we need is "open participatory democracy" I think. It will never drop from the sky (read it in tr) of course. - Burak Arikan

@all of you, wake up and smell the coffee. nobody gives a shit about us. to them, we are just cattle that needs to be herded. until we wake the f**k up--which considering turkish citizens' track record, seems very very unlikely. - muzo

oh, and this is a proper friendfeed conversation now, innit? ;) - muzo

@berkay I understand your concerns about Turkey-EU relationships and AKP's positioning itself in a sort of democracy. But AKP is playing a blurry politics. This is illegal, this is against the citizens. What is illegal? Read elsewhere, it is a long list of shadowed commercial activities, injecting Naksibendi and Fethullah people into the government offices behind the scenes... etc.etc. - Burak Arikan

@muzo waking up is only possible through discussion, as we do here. Please join in. - Burak Arikan

@burak, you and i both know that there's only a handful of us who believe waking up is possible through discussion. the general course of action in this country is to try and eliminate the opposing argument with any means necessary. your initial tweet that brought about this conversation here ends with "...threat to existence". which says a lot, doesn't it? - muzo

@Burak. Illegal? there is a lot written elsewhere so little more explanation needed. injecting its followers/supporters into government offices is a common disease but not sure it's illegal. We have a lot of problems, most existed since the beginning of our young republic. Our only hope to solve them in time is stick with a stable democracy. - berkay

@Burak, AKP "seems to be" protecting itself with this case, but it's all a matter of conjuncture, i'm not convinced that they are using ergenekon directly. this is a confrontation from the past catching up, it's uncontrollable right now, and it would be superficial to think that a party is controlling it. just as it is superficial to think that the ergenekon mentality would disappear once these guys are grounded. it's an entity on its own that is not controlled by anyone. - mersenne

@muzo yes current politicians in Turkey are not welcoming "different" ideas. But new generation of open minded people are growing. Thanks to the Internet. - Burak Arikan

found the video here : http://www.iyibilgi.com/haber... another thing is that for the first time a military office has been granted permission from genelkurmay to be searched, what do you think, maybe the army also wants to get rid of these people? that would be very interesting if the army supports ergenekon and legitimizes the operation. it would end the game in pat and might put the feud into a state of truce, but then again it seems highly unlikely that this will happen. - mersenne

@berkay: "AKP had opportunities to be democracy champions" ... but is it really them who blew it or those who blamed them with having secret Usa, Eu, UN, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kurdish, Armenian, Greek agenda's? - meursault caulfield

@Burak: "But new generation of open minded people are growing. Thanks to the Internet." never read the hurriyet comments / or the facebook groups sir :) internet has done nothing but decrease my faith in younger generation. prior to the internet i didn't know young people sucked this much.. - mersenne

@meursault caulfield exactly! we'll never know if AKP would have resorted to reactionary politics had the other parties acted more ethically. remember they were a fresh breath after the various three headed coalitions in the late 90s and the first 4 years of their reign were prosperous both diplomatically and economically. it's hard to stay on course while dealing with baykal everyday. - mersenne

I totally agree mersenne. A new generation of "single" minded people growing. You should also check out comments on political youtube vids as well. So called turkish girls swearing at so called kurdish boys.. Sooooo disheartening. I wonder if we will ever learn to live together under a proper democracy or if we'll have to go through a civil war like most successful democracies? Take your pick and brace yourselves :(( - muzo

@meursault, Unfortunately yes, AKP blew it. It's true that AKP opposition has no shame nor vision and attacks them with no moral compass. This is no excuse. Constitution #301 was a major litmus test. There is no room for it in a democracy. Instead of getting rid of it, they chose to do cosmetic changes. Sacrifice freedom of speech to get support of nationalists to pass turban law. They lost all credibility that they are for HR and freedom and only care about own causes. - berkay

@berkat re:Constitution #301. You are right. #301 has to go. Everyone in the government today knows that it has to go. But the first one to even attempt to let it go will face an incredible resistance from the army and the Turkish public. The Turkish public, as liberal as they want to be, would ruthlessly attack AKP on grounds that they are weakening the Turkish system by getting rid of 301 and opening it to new threats of non-punished insults. This already happened with the EU efforts and Kurds. Correct? - meursault caulfield

@mersenne, @muzo in the past I also posted comments on both Hurriyet and Ntvmsnbc websites, never published... yes we see a lot of illiterate comments, but education takes time. i believe people who use internet will be more open minded. - Burak Arikan

@muzo betting on the latter to be more likely. but i suspect a global crisis already, with all the xenophobia spreading through europe because of unemployment levels, us - iran - russia - china power crisis - market economy going bust, i shared an article a few days ago, where soros speculates the capitalist system is coming off at seams http://online.wsj.com/article..., if mccain gets elected i think it might go boom everywhere, - mersenne

@mersenne: I agree. But it's not Baykal that worries me. It is the turkish public. They have been an awakened giant in the past years. The voice turkish public has today is louder than ever, however mostly ill informed. they are surely enjoying this power however the result is always against AKP. What worries me are the theories that are floating around and AKP's dilemma to address these or their political agenda... nothing comforted me more than seeing Tayyip Erdogan on Hulya Avsar Show though... - meursault caulfield

@burak sure in the long run i believe that too i was just kidding there, in fact technology is the big impetus here in this debate, these issues can be talked about today thanks to the internet. and youtube might be staying closed not because of videos but because it's a very powerful medium, remember there were a few more leaked videos on youtube? - mersenne

@KemalYaylali good thoughts on the origin of nation and nationalism. http://kemal.bioeng-network.org/2008... - Burak Arikan

@mersenne if mccain is elected we should all go to a white mullberry fest in Aya$! ;)) - muzo

@meursault @KemalYaylali says religious communities are "reality" now. I agree. We are also real. - Burak Arikan

@meursault I agree may be AKP couldn't show progress on 301 because of the fear from army (before the general public). However, they were able to show progress on the Turban, which may have a similar result as we can see today. Why did they choose Turban instead of 301? - Burak Arikan

@mersenne thanks for the Soros article, I will read it on my way home. Soros foundation has big impacts on Turkey as you may know. http://www.soros.org/about... - Burak Arikan

@KemalYaylali, @Burak Read Benedict Anderson - Imagined Communities , if you haven't already : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... + a short interview with him, interesting stuff just found it while looking for him http://www.culcom.uio.no/aktivit... and also nite boys! - mersenne

I will be back in half an hour. Thoughtful discussion, I learn from it, thanks for participating. - Burak Arikan

@Burak, turban is directly related to education which seems to be the declared first priority on AKP's agenda. I think the 301 issue is more related to PR abroad than anything else yet I'm sure it will be addressed soon. - meursault caulfield

We got a kind of a shock here in Turkey. In the case of shock, the only way to keep your sane is to be informed. I recommend reading The Shock Doctrine, watch the trailer of the book here: http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-d... - Burak Arikan

@meursault a government could easily execute multiple work in parallel, we can't take this excuse. I understand what you are saying as a larger strategy, which is the problem with AKP I think. I am not tracking what they do what they don't personally, but I read from people who do track them, write about them, criticize them. As a result, what i understand is AKP is the representative of Naksibendi + Fethullah doctrine, which is not about democracy. - Burak Arikan

"i believe people who use internet will be more open minded"... I have to disagree with this. Unfortunately. It works in theory but not in practice, and I'm not optimistic about the future. I think the internet creates what I can call fascist despotism in reverse. (?). Where masses are the "opium of the masses" . where the majority raises their voice louder and grows more violent merely with the echo they hear of their own voice. scary. - meursault caulfield

@meursault before the internet, were you able to do large-scale conversations like we do here? Conversation does not imply echoing, it implies discussion, criticizing and learning from each other. - Burak Arikan

A clear evidence that AKP is only trying to protect itself and not interested in the democracy and the citizens of Turkey: Ufuk Uras wanted to give a proposal so that TBMM could research the coup d'etat claims. But no AKP member signed it. To propose something like this it must have 20+ signature in TBMM. Hopefully Uras hardly collected 21 signatures with the support of DTP. http://www.radikal.com.tr/Default... - Burak Arikan

To me it is so obvious that AKP exploits the word "democracy" and the support people gave in the past. - Burak Arikan

Burak it's true that the conversation and communication is done. But not all discussions are done in this manner of objectivity. I think on the edge of opinions, internet becomes a great propaganda tool where people only look at judgments they want to see and ignore the rest. - meursault caulfield

To me AKP treasures the word "democracy" more than any party in the past, and the continuous support for them from the minorities is a proof of this. - meursault caulfield

@meursault do you favor few voices over many voices? I understand that it is hard to catch the discussion when there are many voices. But I don't get your argument "people only look at judgments what they want to see", what do you mean? - Burak Arikan

@meursault because you think AKP treasures the word "democracy" more than any party in the past, will you ignore their ridiculous anti-democratic moves (for example remember the last May 1st), and don't ask for a better democracy? - Burak Arikan

@Berkay about any "Decision to remove 301" http://www.biroybil.com/archive... - meursault caulfield

@burak about the loudness of voice issue, which I realized is also a deep and complex primary issue of democracy. this is the part that i am trying to come into understanding as well. it is a strange case: Current ruling party got elected by a significant majority in Turkey. Today, when you look at the comments section of online newspapers, the comments with heavy criticism (insults and accusations of grand treason) of the party is much more frequent than those in their praise. And these comments with heavy criticism seems to receive to most praise. This scene, is also the same in Istanbul streets. hoping this is not my selective perception and I'm also certainly not saying there is a sort of control / censorship done. most probably not. but it makes me wonder who and where the people are who voted for this party? - meursault caulfield

@burak regarding the above, for example: Akp, may 1st anti-democratic moves allegations: if we keep in mind the "legislative, execution, jurisdiction" as independent pillars of turkish democracy, than May 1st cannot have much to represent AKP's policies. To me, May 1st, should not be at all. see the "Türkiye'de 1 Mayıslar ya kanlı ya da yasak" part which describes past 1980,89,90,94,96 "May 1st"s in Turkey: http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber... . In brief: Noone expects feasts and fireworks on may 1st. - meursault caulfield

Since we are (and actually have to) approach this case by case here is what happened on May 1st 2008: --Taksim Square has been denied permit for May 1st (I have to say: so called) celebrations since 1977. --Despite this, various unions in Turkey decide to celebrate May 1st 2008 in Taksim Square. --Municipality renews its stance, and denies any permit and advises all to celebrate in Kadıköy, Kazlıçeşme or Çağlayan as permitted. --Unions attempt an illegal walk to Taksim and are interfered by the police. The police of a state governed by law, not a policestate. So currently I don't believe the system even allows AKP any interference in how police carries out it's tasks. so I really do not see how it all ends up in this: http://groups.google.com/group... - meursault caulfield

@burak: "...and don't ask for a better democracy?" akp is playing the game of democracy better then those who claim are the descendens of the masters. There is absolutely no alternative to this "better than Turkey has ever seen" government and the beautiful democracy they are fighting to impose on an awakening pupil. - meursault caulfield

@meursault under these poor economic conditions how come workers in Turkey are not making demonstrations anymore? What replaces their anger? TV shows? Religion? Shock therapy? "May 1st should not be at all" is an unrealistic ideology that puts non-obvious press on struggling people. Demonstrations are the most natural actions against the powerful, so that democracy can work. - Burak Arikan

Also I think there should be better demonstration techniques in the age of networked communications. Using peer-to-peer one-to-many few-to-few mobile technologies and so on. - Burak Arikan

@meursault when the Minorities Report of Turkey ("Türkiye Azınlıklar Raporu") was released top AKP ministers simply said this is "intellectual bullshit". There are real democrats in Turkey, as you said AKP is just playing a game. http://www.radikal.com.tr/ek_habe... - Burak Arikan

Türkiye Azınlıklar Raporu tam metni => http://is.gd/P38 - Burak Arikan

"There are real democrats in Turkey" Burak I believe there are and has always been real democrats in Turkey. Noone gave them a chance and noone will because they cannot balance their... "game play" ? but here is a consideration in case we might end up with one of them. This is a simple before & after comparison in photos: once upon a time: http://www.flickr.com/photos... and now: http://www.flickr.com/photos... - meursault caulfield

@Burak: 95% of Turks do not want 301 removed. This is a number that I can confirm from online discussions I participate. This number unfortunately precedes any discussion on any attempts to remove it today. Clearly it has to go, but one cannot expect solid steps from any government who would be acting against the will of their public in such a fast manner we expect. Baskin Oran expresses my confusion correctly by saying that the oppositions CHP, MHP, DSP is "1,000 times worse than AKP". - meursault caulfield

the pulse of the turkish public today is highly nervous and totally paranoid about foreign powers taking over the country. Again, I trust that the ruling party will take necessary steps to bring Turkey into a civilized democracy, including 301. I base my trust not just on their balanced talk that exceeds anything we are used to, but also on their actions so far. I believe this trust is the basis of progress in democracy but it is replaced by a discontent in Turkey that does not know where to lead to. This combined with above leads to one thing: We are so better off with AKP than any other possible alternative. - meursault caulfield

before the whole country went into a primitive elections imposed on july 2007, the worlds biggest economical crisis paranoia, a massive ergenekon trial in which a solid, working 27 grenades are found in a house, and the case regarding the closing of akp there were progress being made. http://www.abhaber.com/english... - meursault caulfield

I mean we have an opposition party that imposes a primitive election on a critical time, that tries to convince the public for some very odd reason that we are in a gigantic economical crisis, that claims they are the defensive lawyers of the -accused terrorists- in ergenekon without having a slightest clue about the case, and that claim that AKP should be shut down because they are letting girls in hijab enter universities. Nevermind the entire opposition about Kurdish broadcasts and everything else... and in the end AKP is accused for not making enough progress on issues they should be dealing with. lord have mercy. - meursault caulfield

@meursault I repeat: top AKP ministers call the Minorities Report of Turkey "intellectual bullshit". We can't accept such an idiot respond to the people of Turkey. - Burak Arikan

@meursault sorry but I think "95% don't want 301 removed" is an arbitrary assumption. As you agree we all do not want 301. Do those people who want 301 think about my future as much as I think about their future? How much they care about it? How much energy time and intellect they spend on it? Look we've been discussing about it for the past 70 comments if not anywhere out of this virtual space. - Burak Arikan

@meursault did you see this: "Ufuk Uras'ın Darbe Önergesi TBMM Başkanlığında" http://bianet.org/bianet... - Burak Arikan

Ufuk Uras's proposal hardly passed 20+ signature threshold to get in to TBMM's consideration. No single AKP member signed Ufuk Uras's proposal, which would take all 12 Eylül coup army generals to the court (e.g Kenan Evren). Do you know why no AKP member signed it... weren't they utilizing any resource to arrest all the responsibles of the army coups. - Burak Arikan

Baskın Oran's article on newspaper Taraf's recent slander on the Turkish army, the so called diagram against everybody: http://baskinoran.oran.name/baskin... - Burak Arikan

@Burak: Yes I saw it and read the article, Baskin Oran is a deservingly respected writer and I agree with him on the matter mostly but even in his article he mentions the changes made in an effort to toppling the 301. But I don't agree with him that the changes made on the article are "street smart" to avoid changing it. There is nothing in the way of the current government, no ideology, no grand mission to stop them from removing it. I believe these done on 301 are solid changes that will slowly drag the heat away from the article, by avoiding so many cases until Turkey is ready for it to be removed. - meursault caulfield

And this is my main issue that I'm trying to raise: Turkey and Turks are not ready for it to be removed. A big majority of the public according to one of the most popular political Tv shows in the country is against changing it. This is not an arbitrary number and I know and believe that majority of the public does not want it changed and I hope that you believe in this assumption too. I'm surprised to the number of 95% but... check out youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch... ... and many more.<sarcasm>Goosebumps all over. it looks like turkish nationals have much better production crew than islamists, almost on par with adnan hoca, Harun Yahya crew</sarcasm> - meursault caulfield

I also do not agree with Baskin Oran's portrayal of the case claiming -first- that 301 discriminates on religion... giving hints that it is the making of the current parties religious aims. this method is similar to that of tabloid newspapers. To the contrary 301, as 159, has survived through a series of democrat or religious governments of all sorts. 301 is just 159 covering insults on "Turkishness" instead of "Turkish republic and turkish government" and it has nothing to do with religion. http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber... - meursault caulfield

which he also explains in the correct context of "racial segregation" under the next heading. But I have to remind that it is not the 301 that needs changing first it is the Turkish public and their outlook. These tensions needs to ease and I see grand efforts in increasing them on sides other than AKP, not just with the accused of Ergenekon but also members of the opposition and in cases of May 1st: unions who refuse to demonstrate under given conditions but decide to march wherever they want instead. Ufuk Aras's proposal: Noone other than DTP members signed the proposal, it is not only AKP who did not sign it. - meursault caulfield