I guess this same could be said for any religion. Here, I'll star: "Imagine if you were a Muslim and had to worry about being attacked in retaliation every time some wacko hijacked a plane, suicide bombed something in the name of God, or opened fire on American soldiers." - Rah-PM 2012

That's pretty much what I was thinking about, Rahsheen. I think it's insane that mosques in the U.S. now have to tighten up security just because that Army psychiatrist happens to be Muslim. - Victor Ganata

@Matthew LOL ... I'm Catholic, and happy to be one, but MAN am i expected to provide apologetics for this stuff... - Brent

Victor, what a person says he is does not mean that he is. What a person does defines who he is and who his "father" is. - Melanie Reed

Do you guys know Ron Hansen? Arguably the best Catholic writer out these days... wrote "The Assassination of Jesse James..." and some other wonderful books. He claims, as an academic, that he's had colleagues walk out of the room when they find out he's Catholic... - Brent

Heh, I didn't mean to single out Catholics—I just happen to have been born and raised as one so I used them as an example—but replace "Catholic" with any Muslim sect and "Jesus" with "Muhammad", and the list of acts that I mentioned with the list of acts that Rahsheen mentioned, and you get the weird mentality of some people in this country. - Victor Ganata

Those in this thread may find this RSS feed a good edition to your read - it's analysis of religion and media coverage thereof http://feeds.feedburner.com/getreli... (http://www.getreligion.org ). It's solid writing. - Micah

Victor, if its any consolation, some of us understood what you were saying :). And yes, that would suck. - j1m

I assume it's the same for other faiths but, as I'm not a Muslim (for example), I don't feel it's my place to say... I wait for them to say it. :) - Brent

@ Rahsheen - that only applies to middle-eastern originated religions. The Buddhists don't tend to be violent, and I haven't yet heard of Hindu fundamentalists hijacking planes or performing suicide bombings. - Piaw Na

Piaw, the Tamil Tigers might not be primarily religiously driven, but I believe they are both Hindu and leaders in the field of suicide bombing. - Andrew C (✓) from Android

Andrew, but it's not like Sri Lankans look at that and say, see, all Hindus are evil, it's inherent in their religion. At least, I don't think they do? - Victor Ganata

ANDR-IZZLE G-IZZLE Excellent point. Thank you for bringing that out. One's skin color does not always determine one's citizenship or one's religion. People of all skin colors convert to various religions (and defect from others), while there is a general population that still represents a particular religion. - Melanie Reed

That latter point is where the rubber meets the road: you still have major populations that do represent a particular religion. Within that general category there can be extremists. Also within that general category can be those who "can be turned" and sometimes do become extremists for whatever reason later to be revealed. One of the reasons 9/11 happened is that there was more of an acceptance that anyone who had gained US citizenship "must be ok". The questions asked following that horrible epsisode was how they had lived so long in this country, been accepted as we would our neighbors and then do such a horrible thing. It broke down trust. Now we have extremist groups openly saying not only to the US but elsewhere (watch how Sharia law is spreading because they have the legal standing within the country (UK) and the consumer influence to make it a reality) that they will convert the world to this law. This is normally how groups in the US and other democratic governments get some power and influence and carry it out. If it were not for this concern, I think the problem would not even be a problem - Melanie Reed

being Catholic has nothing to do with it...........since the beginning of mankind someone was doing in honor of their God.............. - Valz 4 Botts

Was he part of a group? So far there's no evidence to point to such. - Victor Ganata

Victor, that is currently being investigated but within certain extremist ideology it is a general mandate without needing to opt into a special group: http://friendfeed.com/breakin... - Melanie Reed

I think it's an unwarranted conclusion to jump to. It's more likely that he was simply mentally ill. - Victor Ganata

No, they are not (and I am most certainly not) jumping to any conclusions. But that line of inquiry has to be followed up. What I advocate is cautious behavior. while maintaining the olive branch of fairness. - Melanie Reed

OK, if Muslims, then why not Christians? I think it's bogus, personally. But who knows, maybe he was in a sleeper cel. - Victor Ganata

@Victor: because christianity is the good religion and muslim is the evil religion, obviously. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

But that isn't my point anyway. Maybe he was in a terrorist organization. After all, there are plenty of Christian cultists who perform acts of terror as well that need to be investigated. My point is that if you're just an average Muslim, why should you be subjected to harassment and threats? - Victor Ganata

I see your point and I agree. But,we should hold off on any kind of comment or labeling until it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that he did belong to a terrorist sleeper cell. And the same thing needs to happen for whenever anyone of any religious affiliation commits a crime. Everyone should be treated equal and only those that committed the crime should be held rsponsible, not everyone who happens to share the perp's beliefs. - Rene, Pro Button Pusher

Andrew Sullivan, before he moved to the US? - Andrew C (✓)

Well, yeah, like I said, Christian terrorists are well known throughout history. Ask anyone living in North Ireland, too, for that matter, right? - Victor Ganata

Matthew -- Northern Scotland stayed Catholic... - Brent

Yes, Victor, there are extremists who claim parts of almost all religions. Even in India the wars between the various religions including the ones mentioned by Matthew were notorious. In Jesus' earthly time, there were Jewish zealots which is why he was under suspicion by the Romans. But he preached something entirely different: He said "my kingdom is no part of this world." and he also told Peter to return his sword to its place: "Those who live by the sword will die by the sword." He then healed Malchus ear that had been struck off. And though he had done nothing wrong, He did not resist when he was arrested. - Melanie Reed

I think the apocalypse officially starts the day a Buddhist monk straps on high-powered explosives and takes out a government facility. - Victor Ganata

I do think all Christians pay a price for the fanatical Christian fringe. It's why HBO can pee on Jesus and call it comedy. Granted the levels of real and feared retaliation aren't the same, but neither is the level of violence on the Christian side compare to the Muslim side. That said, blaming an entire group for the acts of a few is ALWAYS wrong. Unfortunately, human nature predicts that there will always be anti-X bigots whenever there are X bigots. - Dawn

I really don't buy the idea that Muslims are more violent than Christians. There are more than 229 million Indonesians, the majority Muslim, and as far as I can tell, they don't really seem any more violent than Americans, really. - Victor Ganata

Christians have a long history of extraordinary violence over the centuries. By the far the bloodiest war in American history (to pick one example) was instigated by Bible-thumping Southern fundamentalists -- the very same cultural group which is trying to instigate a global holy against Islam in contemporary times. They used the Bible and their version of Christianity as a justification for slavery and crude racism. They almost blew the United States to smithereens. They're still out there, in droves. - Sean McBride

Is that a requirement? When I was Catholic I never worried about being attacked. By that same logic, if you're an abortion doctor or little kid you must live in fear of being shot or raped by Catholics. Everyone can live in fear, there's plenty of scary things in the world. - Lo the Baker

I'm not talking about just living in fear though. I'm talking about having that fear realized, with people actually trying to harm you, just because of that association. - Victor Ganata

a lot of it depends on where you live, too - Brent

[redacted. cannot express clearly] - Lo the Baker

I think everyone in the world belongs to a group that has some reasoning to fear others. And most groups do have their fears realized. Men and women, religious or not, from the right or wrong place in the world/country/state/town, too young or too old. People categorize and when they do they push people where they don't belong. People who shoot others don't do it because they are religious or of a certain race, they do it because of some mental problem that causes them to be able to devalue human life. - Heather

That's what I think, too, Heather. First and foremost, people who commit these kind of acts are mentally ill. Of course, that doesn't mean you can be automatically absolved of guilt, either. Just because you have a mental illness doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions, or that you don't have the capacity to make decisions. - Victor Ganata

So Buddhists don't become mentally ill, but Muslims and Christians do? Why is that? - Piaw Na

Piaw, I don't really think that either. Obviously, there are lots of cases where Buddhists kill other people and commit massacres. But Western media doesn't look for them like they do for Muslim or Christian terrorists. - Victor Ganata

Mentally ill? I don't know about that. I think it has been proven, possibly scientifically, that people seek some type of religion so that their life makes sense. Some of us steer clear of organized religion, but most other people would put their lives up for it. If your very existence is tied to certain beliefs and somehow you have come to believe that you have to kill someone to uphold those beliefs, that's what you're going to do. I don't think it means you're actually mentally ill. - Rah-PM 2012

Yes, Rasheen. There is a big difference between what is classified as mental illness and being mentally blinded. We think, form ideas in mental pictures. If you have been shown the wrong mental picture by whatever circumstance, it is almost as if you are "under a spell". Both Chesterton and Lewis demonstrated that when writing to your audience and presenting an opposing concept to overcome faulty critical thinking you have to "snap the spell". - Melanie Reed

Now, as far as the stigma against Muslims, I think it's complete and total bull. I'm no expert on religion, but it seems to me that they all share the same basic philosophies or whatever. For the majority of Americans to look down on one religion because of a few extremists is just ridiculous. I don't even think most Americans know what Jihad means. - Rah-PM 2012

Rasheen, I think before 9/11 that was correct. I remember the day and the first word that went through my mind when I fully let the report sink in was "Jihad" but that was because I remembered my study of it. I don't think that is the case now. I've been surprised at the sampling of people whose demeanor and clothes would have signified to me a lack of interest previously to these things. But to address community response with a long-sighted view, the hyper-vigilance of some if tapped into in a timely and respectful fashion can be just as much of a safeguard as the hyper-complacency of others. Either signals to the community that something is wrong. Both need to be listened to and the temperature taken. - Melanie Reed

Rahsheen, I think you're right, there are people who rationally come to the conclusion that they have to kill for their religion and way of life, but in this case, I'm putting my money on the fact that he's seriously fucked up in the head. But that's just a hunch. I could be very wrong. - Victor Ganata

Religions are definitely not the same. Buddhism is a far cry from the middle-eastern religions. I think to lump them all together does them a disservice. The evangelical religions, I think, are a particular blight on the human race. - Piaw Na

I still remember what my Scripture teacher in high school, who was a Jesuit priest, said about other religions. If you looked at the most devout, pious followers of almost any religion and examined their personal attributes, what they had in common would far outweigh where they differed. Good people are good people. There are over a billion Muslims in the world, and to judge them by the actions of a few extremists is a serious injustice. - Victor Ganata

I disagree. The non-evangelicals don't usually run around declaring that you're going to hell for not believing in their god. The evangelicals are a blight for that reason. Similarly, the most devout fundamentalists are the most likely to shoot abortion-providing doctors. - Piaw Na

Well, being a Jesuit, he would probably consider those kinds of evangelicals and fundamentalists to not be true Christians, in that they're following a perverted version of God's message. If you're going to perform eisegesis on the Bible, you can justify anything sort of behavior, but as far as I can tell, I don't think Jesus would condone massacring non-believers or damning them to hell. Unless I missed a few verses in the Gospels? - Victor Ganata

Devout and pious in terms of following the true spirit of their respective religions. I can't really find anything in the Bible that explicitly says that God likes it when you kill lots of people and blow them up into tiny bits, and while I haven't read the Quran as closely, I don't think there's anything in there either that explicitly states violence is the best way to be a good Muslim. - Victor Ganata

John 14:6 - "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - Piaw Na

Yes, but where's the killing and the damning in the verse? - Victor Ganata

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18) - Piaw Na

So the way they taught us was that the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament whenever there's a conflict. From what I know, it looks like Jesus wouldn't have been into genocide, but I could be wrong. - Victor Ganata

Yes, but what the hell is the definition of a witch? And, again, NT > OT. - Victor Ganata

That is how it seems to work :D I haven't met a Catholic who was a complete literalist yet, but they probably exist. - Victor Ganata

Christopher, not really. It is an entire narrative pointing to what happens in the New Testament. And the New Testament ties both together. How much and how far have you read in either? - Melanie Reed

Just for point of reference, religion-wise, I'm far from a devout Catholic. I consider myself agnostic, really. I think there's a lot of superstition and deliberate misinterpretation that people cling to by calling it tradition. I think the Church is very wrong on a lot of social issues, and hypocritical too if they're really supposed to be driven by Jesus' great commandments. But I was born to a culture in which Catholicism is firmly entrenched, and I was educated under Catholic auspices for 12 years of my life, and up until 8 years ago, I went to mass every Sunday. - Victor Ganata

Christopher: it's sort of like the U.S. Constitution: the OT correspond to the articles, the NT are the amendments. At least that's how we were taught scripture my freshman year in high school. - Victor Ganata

Seriously question: I remember reading about a lot of stonings for various offenses. I'm assumings all that was old testament stuff? - Rah-PM 2012

Christopher: the Jesuits also taught us to interpret both the OT and the NT more as works of literature that embodied certain themes rather than an actual guidebook to human behavior. They clearly weren't writing for a modern audience. Slaughter and rape seem to be countermanded by Mark 12:28-12:34 http://bible.oremus.org/... but maybe I'm reading into the text. - Victor Ganata

Christopher this is what the scriptures from the old testament to the new were about to give you a very condensed reply. The "law" which you mention coming from Leviticus as well as Exodus and Deuteronomy (which means "second law") were a "tutor leading to Christ" :http://www.biblegateway.com/passage... Jesus summed up the law and its purpose this way: http://www.biblegateway.com/ passage/?search=Matthew+22%3A36-40&version=NIV | http://www.biblegateway.com/passage... | http://www.biblegateway.com/passage... | http://www.biblegateway.com/passage... - Melanie Reed

Christopher: the heart of those passages are "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." - Victor Ganata

I'm also seem to remember there was a specific hierarchy for which text was considered authoritative. Something like Gospels > Acts > epistles > OT. It's been a while since I studied the Bible that closely. - Victor Ganata

Christopher, We were given a choice in the beginning: listen to God and live well or go our own way and endure the consequences (life as we know it today: not very pleasant for a lot of us is it? But we have free will) God worked out a plan within that free will to give us a chance out of this mess and back into a restored relationship with him. He had to educate a very stubborn minded set of people who wanted to go their own way no matter how much it hurt themselves or others so he looked over the earth for men and women who would listen to him of their own free will. The law was to guide and teach them so that they would be ready when Jesus came. Once he came, it was no longer necessary to have rules and consequences to teach the people things that would benefit them. It's hard to love an abstract law...you can delight in the protection of it and be grateful for the benefits. But you can't love it so that you would obey it out of love for thepeople around you and th one who created it. You can however love a person. Jesus fufilled the law, the spirit of it. When you love God you put self last and then the law is in your heart. - Melanie Reed

Christopher, can you clarify what you mean by ridiculous? - Melanie Reed

And as Eric mentions, the popular conception of Hell doesn't really exist in the OT or the Gospel. The original afterlife was Sheol, where both the righteous and the unrighteous end up. There's also Gehenna, where sinners go to be destroyed, but they don't get eternally punished. Certainly, the conception of Hell that they taught me in high school (which I perhaps wrongly assume is the current Catholic concept) is nothing like the popular conception. Hell is where God isn't, and your punishment is to be separated from God forever. - Victor Ganata

Christopher, since you and I weren't there as eyewitnesses, then from the evidence left, I think we can safely assume He found a way. And I for one am no gladder knowing the explanatory details that science would attempt to give us, than I am having been given the narrative which assures me that what I see survived did. - Melanie Reed

Christopher: I can't explain it either. Like I said, I have yet to meet a Catholic who interprets the Bible literally. Most Catholics I know don't believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old, or even that God completely destroyed civilization in a flood. They're stories that carry a divinely inspired message, but the instruments of that message are limited by their time and place and culture, and their perspective isn't our perspective. - Victor Ganata

Christopher, right now I am studying advanced algebra (I actually have to get some homework done) and it provides me some activity of discovery. That discovery process is interesting, challenging and sometimes (when its a subject I like) very enjoyable. I'm very grateful that God left a lot of the details of the facts that don' t really change the reality a sort of "mystery" for me and you and others to enjoy learning. How He does some things are left a mystery we are allowed to uncover, some He reveals directly, and some He reserves for only Himself to know . - Melanie Reed

Really interesting discussion! I wish it were generally accepted that doctrines, faiths and ancient scriptures are not "true" - but they may have "value." Then one could sift out the superstitions, ancient "health codes" and terribly outmoded penal codes and acceptable crimes (slavery, incest, genocide.) Then careful study of all religions (such as Eric mentions) might find that the "value" of these faiths is shared to a large degree. But, I'm an Atheist, so it's not really for me to say :) - Richard Walker

Whatever your opinion of Catholic dogma, to get an accurate, up-to-date presentation of its tenets, you are best consulting the Catechism. In there, you'll find the Church's current position on all aspects of Catholicism: Hell, the Old Testament, the Flood story, relationship to Islam, etc. I suspect the Church would rather their authentic positions be questioned, than a misrepresentation. :) - Brent

http://www.vatican.va/archive... - Brent

sorry... this link might be easier to navigate (the index, instead of the T of C): http://www.vatican.va/archive... - Brent

yes. i don't argue that point. - Brent

Christopher: I think they'd argue that God's revelation isn't static. They value tradition almost as much as scripture itself, and tradition continues to evolve. The Church I grew up in was significantly different from the one my parents grew up in. - Victor Ganata

@Victor I'm a wee bit jealous that you were educated by jesuits... I have a deep respect for them. :) - Brent

Heh, I went to a Dominican elementary school and junior high. The priests there actually warned me about the Jesuits before I went to high school. I have to say, it was the Jesuits who taught me to question my faith. And I think anyone who argues that religion can't coexist with rationality and science has clearly never met a Jesuit. - Victor Ganata

Exactly. Rigorous minds, eh? - Brent

Maybe we define rationality differently. Being rational doesn't mean you necessarily know the truth (or non-truth) about something. (And I'm not even talking about supernatural things.) - Victor Ganata

Also, I never had the balls to ask them what they REALLY think about transubstantiation :D - Victor Ganata

Christopher: were you exposed to the Spiritual Exercises at all? I'd like to know what you thought of them... - Brent

Christopher: there's no need to get nasty. i wasn't talking about being "forced" to do anything. I asked if you'd been exposed to it. And what difference does it make if it's a private university? Well-regarded, or not? - Brent

apology accepted. mea culpa. ;) - Brent

thanks for the links, christopher... looks like interesting stuff. - Brent

Christopher: Given that Catholics tend to be non-literalists, I don't really see a conflict between science and Catholic dogma/doctrine. Lots of Jesuits were scientists and mathematicians. Georges Lemaitre, S.J. is credited with originating the Big Bang Theory. I don't think there's necessarily a need for compartmentalization, although I don't doubt that in many cases you're right about their ability to bullshit themselves and others :D - Victor Ganata

casuistry = bullshit? lol - Brent

Christopher: yeah, apparently the Vatican finds evolution perfectly compatible with Christianity http://www.reuters.com/article... It's basically a god-of-the-gaps approach. After all, we still don't know how the first cell came into existence :D - Victor Ganata

So you're saying the Big Bang theory is invalid because it was postulated by a Jesuit priest? - Victor Ganata

I'm being deliberately silly. Why would there be separate Catholic physics if they can make contributions to the real thing? - Victor Ganata

"Sorry, didn't mean to sound nasty, Brent. Wasn't a goal." Changed your mind, Christopher? ;) - Brent

(I'm watching Nirvana's live DVD right now. yup.) - Brent

Victor: a request. would you add me? feel as if we are working from similar pages, at least... :) - Brent

Christopher: nope. bought that separately today, too... that's next... procrastinating my nanowrimo. - Brent

I don't know, I suppose I'm a naive fool, but the fact that even the Vatican can admit they're wrong, even if 500 years late, keeps me hopeful :D - Victor Ganata

ok, now i'm hearing zappa's 'catholic girls' in my head... which is wrong! wrong! ;) - Brent

Heh. I understand that sentiment. - Victor Ganata

It's not really my horse anymore, anyway. I'm just familiar with it. But I do find the way people automatically pit science against religion as if they were mutually exclusive to be sloppy thinking. You end up making untoward assumptions about what another person believes, which is always counterproductive. I'm certainly not a fan of creationism and intelligent design, but to ascribe that trash to people who don't believe in it either is basically demonstrating the same point I was trying to make in the OP. - Victor Ganata

Christopher: for me, it's not about whether I can 'handle' curtness, or rudeness, but whether i want to tolerate it. I find that it, too, can be counter-productive. - Brent

for the record, i have been enjoying this thread immensely. :) - Brent

Christopher, supposing that they were mutually exclusive, is there no conception in your philosophy "whereby two opposite passions may blaze together"? - Melanie Reed

Christopher, We have been able to fertilize ovum with sperm in a petrie dish but have we ever been able to create ovum or sperm itself? There is a premise of first things here no matter where you take this. If there is a story, there was a story teller. If there is a moral law, there was a moral lawgiver. If there is a painting, there was an artist. If there is a program, there was a programmer. - Melanie Reed

All religions are the projections of the hopes, fears, desires, etc. of their human creators. They tell us much more about the human mind than about "God," and in that sense all religions are quite interesting. - Sean McBride

Another take on religion: religions are instruments of social, political and financial control wielded by self-appointed and self-aggrandizing priesthoods. - Sean McBride

Christopher, I think it's a problem of demarcation, rather than a direct conflict. Saying religion and science are intrinsically antagonistic is basically saying that physics and metaphysics can't co-exist. It's like saying science and ethics/morality are opposite forces. As far as I can tell there's nothing in the theory of evolution or general relativity that tells me how I should go about treating my fellow human beings. I'm not saying that religion has a lock on this kind of knowledge. But the fact that philosophy is not science doesn't make philosophy invalid either. - Victor Ganata

Anyway, until someone demonstrates empiric proof that God does not exist, I'm going to have to answer "I don't know." Insisting that God doesn't exist despite lack of evidence is just as oppressive as the Bible-thumper insisting that the world is 6,000 years old, or that string theory is the grand unifying theory despite the fact that it doesn't make any experimentally testable predictions. - Victor Ganata

The main problem: "God" is a human concept, subject to infinite definitions and interpretations. Even if one posits that "God" exists, one doesn't really have any meaningful idea of what "God" is. For all we know, "God" may be a malevolent and deceiving entity. (And judging by the extreme chaos and violence which wrack the universe, that might be the first reasonable conclusion one might come to, based on the empirical evidence). - Sean McBride

Sean is right. And I'll add that Religion is a very clever concept serving a very useful function... giving normal people(believers) the walking stick of "hope" when their minds are crippled by fear***, anxiety, confusion, helplessness etc. (edit: I belief God exists, not as krishna, Jesus or allah or any other gods we worship but as an unseen unknown force within ourselves. I've observed that all religions have one thing in common... they encourage praying in groups though they preach God is omnipresent. I believe it has a scientific reason, that getting a huge mass of people to think about the same thing, for instance the deity in hinduism, for a few seconds connects people in that mass together. I like to believe that this is to amplify the effects of this unknown force I call God by 'syncing' people together, though how I can confirm that, is as yet unknown to me.) ***fear in this case is not ghosts, by "fear" I mean fear of tomorrow, fear of the unknown etc. - vijay

Religion is a form of (understandable) self-medication (in the face of adversity, pain and suffering), as well as a tool of social, financial and political control by self-appointed priesthoods. It is also a form of mass hypnosis and mind control. - Sean McBride

vijay -- note how often throughout history this use of religion as a technique of encouraging group consciousness and solidarity has been used as an instrument of aggressive warfare in the competition among human groups for territory, resources, wealth and power. - Sean McBride

"Melanie; You are out of your depth." Christopher, we've just met. How do you know what my depth is? :) "That complex things exist does not necessarily entail a more complex entity that created them... I'm happy to point this out to someone that won't get their feelings hurt. I don't think that's you" Christopher, then I am happy to point out that next time you make something that you feel needs a copyright, that I don't think it will be necessary. As far as my feelings are concerned I don't believe I mentioned them. However, it seems that you are annoyed that I do not subscribe to your premise. - Melanie Reed

Melanie -- founders of religions, most of which contradict one another in a bewildering variety of ways, are human beings, just like you and me. They all make special claims based on alleged divine inspiration. One has to decide whether you value your own judgment and insights over theirs. I haven't encountered a religionist yet whose judgment and insights I value over my own, although some of them have contributed to my store of knowledge. - Sean McBride

Christopher: Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. I took two quarters of philosophy of science as a freshman at Caltech, have read extensively in cognitive science, have a PhD in math from Berkeley, and am now working there as a research specialist in evolutionary genomics. On what basis would you assert that my thinking is sloppy? - Ruchira S. Datta

What's sloppy is making broad generalizations based on your very limited experience of people from a small sampling of religions. - Ruchira S. Datta

Ruchira -- the Bible is overflowing with bad science, wrong science -- mistaken notions about causality based on childish superstitions. Religion has an impressive track record of opposing science and persecuting scientists (Galileo comes to mind). Which advances in scientific knowledge were powered by religion? - Sean McBride

Sean - I did not say anything about the Bible. Did you notice what I said about a small sampling of religions? And which advances in scientific knowledge were powered by art? Does that make art and science mutually exclusive? - Ruchira S. Datta

See "Brian Greene and religion" here: http://viciousmomma.blogspot.com/2007... - Ruchira S. Datta

I keep wanting to recommend the article "Global Darwinism: Eastern enchantment" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... but unfortunately it's behind a paywall. - Ruchira S. Datta

Matthew: Actually, Newton saw his elucidation of celestial mechanics as being powered by religion. With Einstein, it's rather questionable. - Ruchira S. Datta

Great art (as opposed to bad art) achieves its power not by making grandiose ideological claims about the universe, but by capturing sensuous observations about the world. We admire Dante's Divine Comedy not because of its exposition of Roman Catholic doctrine, but because of the beauty of Dante's language. Great art transcends all religious doctrines. Artists have more in common with scientists than do religionists. - Sean McBride

What did religion have to do with Einstein's greatest scientific achievement? - Sean McBride

Sean: I suspect Matthew was referring to Einstein's comment "God does not play dice" but many people think that Einstein was just using "God" as a shorthand, not something to take seriously. - Ruchira S. Datta

Brian Greene: "I think it partly depends on your exact definition of religious. If it means the traditional notion of going to services and some organized religion, then the answer is no. If it means, does it fill me with a sense of awe and wonder about the universe, does it fill me with a sense of how remarkable it is that the pieces of the universe fit together with such logical cohesion, does it fill me with this unshakable sense that there is an underlying order and harmony behind the universe, then to all of those I would say absolutely, yes. For some people, that is religion." In answer to: "Does your work with string theory make you more or less religious?" But one does not need religion to feel a sense of wonder about the universe. - Sean McBride

Sean: For me both religion and science bring me a sense of wonder. I'm not the only scientist whose investigations have been driven by this sense of wonder. - Ruchira S. Datta

It's fine if religion expands your sense of wonder about the world, but religious "methods" will not advance scientific discovery. Science has its own rules, and they are quite precise. - Sean McBride

Sean: Of course they are. All I'm saying is science and religion are not mutually exclusive. You say "Artists have more in common with scientists than do religionists" as if scientists and religionists are two nonintersecting categories, but that is simply false. - Ruchira S. Datta

Einstein: "A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Sean McBride

Sean: I too believe that morality is worldly, not religious. This is also what my religion says. - Ruchira S. Datta

In general, in my experience, artists are more open-minded, adventurous, pioneering, creative, etc. than religionists. These are not fixed categories, of course. Religion has inspired much great art. But the power of that art springs from artistic genius, not from an attachment to any particular religious doctrine. - Sean McBride

Sean: Being artistic, being a scientist, being religious are different dimensions of being a human being. You are trying to put all of these things on a single dimensional scale and ordering them with respect to each other. One of the benefits of mathematical thinking is realizing there's no need or justification for doing that. - Ruchira S. Datta

Sean: There exist religious people who are open-minded, adventurous, pioneering, and creative in their exploration of spirituality. There are others who are not. I've met both (even within my own religion). This is just what one would expect if Openness (one of the Big Five personality traits) is an orthogonal dimension to being religious. - Ruchira S. Datta

I agree with you that there are many religious people who possess all those good traits, but there is little connection between religious fervor and artistic and scientific achievement. Religiosity on the one hand, and artistic and scientific genius on the other, are separate human faculties. And in quite a few cases, religiosity has been the enemy of artistic and scientific achievement. I do think, however, that religious symbol systems reach into the deepest levels of human psychology -- that is why they have been so resonant and influential. - Sean McBride

Sean: It looks like we're coming to agreement. I would only add that the false idea that science and religion are mutually exclusive is *also* an enemy of scientific achievement. - Ruchira S. Datta

Sean: Insofar as religion is a source of mental strength, it can help foster achievement of any kind. But of course it is not always such a source, nor the only such source. - Ruchira S. Datta

Religion sometimes seems to be valuable for crystallizing and organizing intuitions and intimations about the universe, some of which can be later developed into substantive knowledge by the application of reason and scientific method. - Sean McBride

Sean: You are still trying to order things which do not need to be ordered. - Ruchira S. Datta

Feynman: "We must, incidentally make it clear from the beginning that if a thing is not a science, it is not necessarily bad. For example, love is not a science. So, if something is said not to be a science it does not mean that there is something wrong with it; it just means that it is not a science." http://books.google.com/books... - Ruchira S. Datta

Sean: In particular, religion is very personal. The need for replicability and matching of cases with controls makes science a different domain. - Ruchira S. Datta

Of course: things that are not science are not necessarily bad; they may be very good. But they are not science. That is all. - Sean McBride

Religion is very personal; but many religionists (not all) try to enforce their unprovable beliefs on their neighbors and on the world at large. Thus history in great part is the chronicle of religious wars, fought in many cases over absurd doctrines. - Sean McBride

"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously." (Albert Einstein, Letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946) (I would have used the expression "anthropocentric projection.") - Sean McBride

Sean: I agree that enforcing unprovable beliefs is destructive. Making fundamentalist materialism the dogma of scientific culture is more subtly destructive, as it keeps many good people out of science and in some cases, even from benefitting from science. - Ruchira S. Datta

Sean: If you're still arguing with Matthew about Einstein, he seems to be gone now. - Ruchira S. Datta

"Fundamentalist materialism"? - Eivind

Eivind: Google it. I'm using it as shorthand for the idea that science *requires* atheism, which it doesn't. - Ruchira S. Datta

Real scientists are not "fundamentalist materialists" -- they simply don't claim to know more than they know within the realm of scientific knowledge. What we don't know vastly exceeds what we know. - Sean McBride

Sean: Agreed. - Ruchira S. Datta

Great scientists are usually gifted with powerful imaginations -- they are willing to entertain all kinds of marvelous scenarios that aren't yet provable by science. They are always thinking about the mysterious unknown. In some sense, you could call them non-doctrinal religionists, I suppose. - Sean McBride

Paul Thagard, director of the Cognitive Science Program at U. Waterloo, talks about this. See e.g. his article "The Passionate Scientist" http://cogsci.uwaterloo.ca/Article... - Ruchira S. Datta

I googled it, Ruchira. "Fundamentalist", it seems, is just thrown in there to make sure people understand it's a bad thing and not the "moderate materialism"? - Eivind

Eivind: "Fundamentalist" as in "intolerant of other views". - Ruchira S. Datta

I think that is a misuse of the word, but an increasingly popular one. - Eivind

Eivind: Well, originally the word only applied to evangelical Christians. By that usage, there can be no such thing as an Islamic fundamentalist, by definition. - Ruchira S. Datta

I understand it as a strict adherence to a set of static rules (like holy books). That would be the "fundament" part of the word. What I see is people attaching it to whatever to make it sound negative. - Eivind

The word "fundamentalist" does seem to have acquired the connotation of being intolerant to criticism and re-interpretation of one's beliefs. - Victor Ganata

I guess it's possible to be a moderate fundamentalist, then? Nobody likes to be criticized or told what they actually believe :) - Eivind

Just read the following in Sinclair Lewis's _Arrowsmith_: "the scientist is intensely religious--he is so religious that he will not accept quarter-truths, because they are an insult to his faith." Interesting turn of phrase. Not sure I agree with the rest of the passage (from which I would infer, for example, that an evolutionary biologist is not a scientist). - Ruchira S. Datta