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Victor Ganata
Victor Ganata
I have a hard time distinguishing libertarianism from a philosophy where fairness means I can always do what I want, no matter how many other people it might inconvenience, harm, or outright kill, and neither the duly elected government nor the people who they represent have any right to disagree.
October 29 - Comment - Share
Amen, brother, amen. - Spidra Webster
That seems to be what American libertarianism is about. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)
I have a lot of soft-core libertarian tendencies, but I draw the line where: (1) there are information or power imbalances (look around... pretty prevalent); (2) markets are not operating freely and efficiently (look around... pretty prevalent); (3) there's too much risk of harm with a laissez-faire approach (after-the-fact lawsuits are little consolation). The rights of individuals are paramount, but not to the detriment of the group. - LogEx
Good observations, Victor - Melanie Reed
It's a complex label that applies to many different things [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...]. At it's simplest, small-l libertarianism is a worldview at the other end of the spectrum from authoritarianism. Take the test at http://www.politicalcompass.org/ ...I'd bet that >75% of the people on FriendFeed would score in the lower-left quadrant (Left-Libertarian]. - LogEx
Most self-identified libertarians would say that your freedom ends where it crosses the freedom of someone else. I can do what I want, but you don't have to help me do it. - Alex Scrivener
So, I could inconvenience all I want, but harm, or outright kill would infringe on your rights. - Alex Scrivener
LogEx, I took that test again out of curiosity, and boy did I hate the wording of many questions this time. I wonder how accurate it is. (and yes, I was lower-left, but more lower and less left than 10 years ago... how predictable) - Lo
Another fun test is the "Libertarian Purity Test" http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi-bin... - Alex Scrivener
Wow, Alex, that's worse. I couldn't answer 4 of the first 5 questions and gave up. There's no "it depends" option. - Lo
Yep, libertarians would be just fine allowing people to smoke in public areas regardless of the overwhelming evidence of the high costs to society associated with second hand smoking. - Alex Scoble
"They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written down for me. It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response... Shall we continue?" - LogEx
More like a test designed to prompt answers that reveal little about the respondent. On several of those I realized that someone who is the polar opposite of me would answer the same way. That's just crazy. (but then, I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to the imprecise meaning of words) - Lo
Lo, what's "tl;dr" ? (I saw the tmi bit) --> nvrmnd, googled it. - LogEx
too long; didn't read - Itachi
Well, libertarians are fine with allowing owners of private establishments to allow smoking, if that's what you're talking about. - Alex Scrivener
If by "private establishments" you mean restaurants, sorry, but those are public places and as such, it is perfectly acceptable for the government to sanction smoking in these areas for the greater good. - Alex Scoble
And there is a fundamental difference. Just because someone invites you into his place does not make it public - Alex Scrivener
I've met a quite a few libertarians that are quite reasonable.. there is a difference between libertarianism and narcissism.. - Pavan
The problem with "my rights end where yours begin" is that there are way too many scenarios where people's rights clash. At that point, who decides whose right is more important? - Victor Ganata
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. - Alex Scoble
Victor, isn't that what the Constitution is for? Oh, and by the way, if we don't like the Constitution and don't think Congress is doing enough to fix it, we are explicitly allowed to call for a convention. - LogEx
LogEx, tl;dr is perhaps the most common response I've seen to my comments on the internet. (I have logorrhea) - Lo
This libertarian accurately articulated my problems with the Nolan chart: "The Nolan Chart does an excellent job of describing conservatism, and the difference between conservatism and libertarianism. It does a much poorer job of describing liberals. In fact, the Nolan Chart is not really two-dimensional. Both dimensions are different aspects of a value of concern to libertarians: the amount of government. It says little about what government should do with its power in the various domains." http://www.quiz2d.com/essays... - Andrew C
Lo... ooh, logorrhea sounds like something I should have ;) - LogEx
Political compass is an interesting test and if you are using a Constitutionalist argument. Logex, your probably a right libertarian. I personally like the John Birch Society creed. - Eric Logan
Alex, this country was built on the ideal of liberty for the individual, not what's good for the majority is best for all. That's why we have civil rights, and why marijuana should be legal. Anyway, I'm guessing most people fall into the gray area, and it depends on the issue how libertarian they are. Oh, and people should be able to pump their own gasoline. :) - Cristo
Andrew, thanks, I was wondering when there would be some analysis on the methodology. BTW, the political compass is not the same as the Nolan chart (seems the main diff is that populism is replaced by authoritarianism... which does have implications for interpretation), but perhaps some of the same criticisms apply. - LogEx
Give me liberty or give me death! - LogEx
if you posit only negative rights (Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, etc.) they can't conflict. If you hold for positive rights, well, then you're in trouble. - Alex Scrivener
I dunno Cristo, I think the whole notion of government existing is to protect the good of the majority from those individuals who don't use their rights in a kind way. Complete individual freedom for all would mean a seriously crazy world. But this country was founded on the idea of keeping restrictions on liberty to the bare minimum, sure. - Lo
One would think this conversation was tailored for me, wouldn't one? - MVB (Grinch of FF)
Yeah, where have you been, MVB? - LogEx
I was out on a site all day. I read the above comments, and, other than Alex Scoble being a total socialist, there isn't really anything I need to add. ;) - MVB (Grinch of FF)
Government exists to protect rights. Determining what those rights are is essential before a higher level discussion can take place. - Alex Scrivener
That's a pretty narrow definition, Alex. Government also, if done correctly, can be better at roads, utilities, etc... Acting as a co-op would for purchasing power to obtain better prices for the members of the co-op. - MVB (Grinch of FF)
If my happiness depends on killing you, surely that's a conflict of rights? :D - Victor Ganata
Victor, yes. MVB, if you want to get technical, I hold a Thomistic view of government, which involves natural law, human nature, and 'The Good'. But in general, government = rights protector. Everything else is secondary. - Alex Scrivener
with scrivener on this.. - Pavan
Anyway, my point was that, on the increasingly rare occasion I get suckered into an argument with a self-identified libertarian, I always feel that they're basically just asserting that their individual rights are somehow more important than my individual rights. So, while, yeah, I realize that in theory, it is distinct from narcissism and solipsism, in practice, I find it hard to see how. - Victor Ganata
I do agree that the purpose of government is to protect rights, but the only way for governments to exist is for individuals to give up some of their natural rights. - Victor Ganata
I disagree that you have to give up rights to have government. The only thing that seems necessary to give up is money, in taxes, and as long as you are allowed to leave (see: East Germany) that is at least nominally voluntary. - Alex Scrivener
victor: nope a libertarian's rights are not greater than yours.. they are the same.. a libertarian would lead his life within his rights according to his needs.. your needs are your problem. - Pavan
Libertarians don't want to interfere with you, they want to be left alone. It's kind of a defining characteristic. - Alex Scrivener
I'm coming from a Hobbesian perspective here. Remaining in a state of nature gives you more liberty than being bound in a social contract. You do give up something to become part of civilization. - Victor Ganata
I have a hard time distinguishing libertarianism from the philosophy where libertarians do not like any political solution to every political problem, while their solutions can never be applied, because that would pretty much lead to anarchy. - Rene Wirtz
Utopian anarchy and idealized libertarianism do seem to have a lot in common. I think utopian anarchy would be the ideal system. Everyone would just innately know the right thing to do, and never impinge on each others rights. - Victor Ganata
Liberals, conservatives, libertarians, progressives, republicans, democrats. Does anyone like any group? - Cristo
Oh yes, I'm a progressive progressive. (But you can call me a socialist, too *wink*) - Rene Wirtz
Clearly, the problem is that people suck, no matter what group you put them in. I think that a realistic system of government has to take that into account. - Victor Ganata
Very true, Victor. But it would have to be a government that actually listens to its citizens. - Rene Wirtz
Interesting article here: "Libertarianism as a Liberal Project" http://friendfeed.com/alexscr... - ...helps to explain why I think of myself partly as a fiscally-conservative bleeding-heart libertarian ;) - LogEx
LogEx, but that is what libertarianism has been stereotyped as: objecting solely against state impingement on liberty, never mind the tyranny and oppression that a human being or corporation in a state of nature is capable of. Frankly, I can't see the typical American libertarian being behind that--it would immediately be seen as impinging on the liberty of private citizens. It's really more in tune with progressive and neomarxist goals. - Victor Ganata
It's silly to define and root yourself as anything, when after every move white makes, black makes a counter move and the shape of winning changes. Progressives realize that a move ago being less controlled made sense, but after black's last move, that path to the prosperity may be closed and a more authoritarian central control is prudent. Once you realize life is all middle game, it makes more sense. - Matthew DeVries
@Victor, sure, but I think there is more common ground on liberty-libertarian issues across the liberal-conservative spectrum than there is on almost any other issues in that spectrum. Maybe we can use that to bundle things a different way, reduce authoritarianism, and then be able to deal with real issues one by one. - - @Matthew, yes, I've never thought the extremes of any philosophy make sense in practice (despite my nom de plume)). We need to find a way to get more consensus in the middle ground and stop being so polarizing. - LogEx
Just to stir the pot a little more, I am a radical libertarian with monarchist sympathies. Why? People are more suspicious of a king's claims than the claims of someone with a "mandate from the electorate" - Alex Scrivener
Alex, isn't that contradictory? *confused* - Rene Wirtz
No, libertarianism only means support for liberty, not democracy. - Alex Scrivener
Then why would you have monarchist sympathies? *still confused* - Rene Wirtz
People will only put up with "Because I said so" so far, before they resist, and people are wary of give power to a separate entity, like a king. But in a democracy, the leaders can always say "This is what the people want. I have a mandate." There is no external check. - Alex Scrivener
OK, but you can vote out a democratic government, but you can't vote out a king. - Rene Wirtz
I never said it was perfect - Alex Scrivener
*LOL* But then wouldn't a democratic government be slightly better than a monarchy? (And perfection doesn't really exist ... anywhere ...) - Rene Wirtz
If you want details, I favor (in an abstract way) the tripartite mixed regime as laid out in 'De Regimine Principum, ad Regem Cypri' but always with the understanding that governments must fit with the history and traditions of a people. - Alex Scrivener
alexscrivener, interesting twist re. the monarchy strategy. But, historically it seems to me royals have employed the same type of rhetoric as modern elected representatives. Of course the Kings with an unabashedly self-centered rule are the most notorious, but 'best for the subjects of the realm' is not unheard of. - Micah Wittman
*Housekeeping Item* @Victor - Subscribed! (lol, can't believe I hadn't till now, but I don't groom my subscriptions much at all for probably a year now.) - Micah Wittman
For anyone really interested in a solid defense of monarchy, try Liberty or Equality: The Challenge of Our Times by Erik Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn. A fascinating book, and the closest anyone has come to convincing me to be a monarchist. - Alex Scrivener
This is me on libertarianism: http://piaw.blogspot.com/2009... - Piaw Na
@Cristo: I like being a progressive liberal. The conservatives have been wrong on every issue in history. They were wrong about giving votes to women, they were wrong about child labor, they were wrong about pollution, they were wrong about National Parks, and they will be wrong about gay marriage and are currently wrong about healthcare. I can't think of any issue in history where the conservatives were ultimately proven correct (they were even wrong about WWII) - Piaw Na
Piaw Na: right on! I've said the same thing! - josh neff, geek at large
Piaw Na, great. And your economic policy? BTW, I think all groups are wrong on some things, and some groups are right on some things, although not all groups are right on some things. And while I agree with every one of the issues you stated, I don't agree with all the policies of progressives or democrats. - Cristo
Economic policy? The conservatives were wrong about marginal tax rates, and tax cuts boosting the economy. Clinton's progressive tax increase certainly didn't hurt the economy either. Starve the beast didn't work, and hasn't worked, and smart conservatives (e.g., Bruce Bartlett) are starting to realize that. And in the long run, economic policy is driven by policies such as racism, the right to vote, child labor, education, healthcare, etc. You can't have a sensible economic policy if all those things are messed up. - Piaw Na
Okay, so you're equating republican with conservative. Try reading "fiscal conservative" as in Ron Paul or Ross Perot. You know, like in a strong dollar, and not putting ourselves into deeper debt, which both democrats and republicans have done. - Cristo
@Piaw Na: I am thinking the conservatives are the real, unsung heroes in any society? They are taking a bullet for the team as the conservative forces are needed in any society (in some form) to help steer the ship, but they are bound to look both stupid and uncompassionate in the light of history as they by default initially will have opposed all those progresses we are so proud our society has made. *edit: And for the record, I'm NOT playing that part! :)* - Eivind
Eivind: I'd be much more grateful if they were truly unsung. They seem to have way too many supporters at any given time in history, from the pro-slavery crowd to today's Rush Limbaugh/Joe Lieberman crowd. - Piaw Na
There's a time and place to put on the brakes, and those are laudable. But the rest of the time, it really isn't. - Andrew C
They are NEVER able to answer how they will protect children or the public in general from the rampage of greed. - Brad Nickel
I'd hate to call the pro-slavery folks unsung heroes. - Piaw Na
It's highly dependent on definitions, but I usually think of the the people who want to put on the brakes moderates, and the people who want throw it in reverse conservatives/reactionaries. Life is change. Anything that doesn't change is dead. On the other hand, believing in a mythic future can just be as dangerous and destructive as trying to turn back the clock to the mythic past. I don't think one side is more right, but I do think that a lot of times, one side is less wrong. - Victor Ganata
It always depends on the timetable, doesn't it? With slavery, Lincoln was an unsung hero at first, and he didn't free the slaves because of overwhelming anti-slavery sentiment. But he quickly became one of the most sung heroes in US history. - Lo
Lincoln sounds like a flaming librul to me, even now. Liberating property sounds downright communist, in fact. - Victor Ganata
Lincoln got a bullet to his head for what he did. The conservatives get jobs at think-tanks, lots of money from industry, newspaper columns, highly paid tv and radio shows. I don't think the word "hero" means what you think it means. - Piaw Na
I don't think that any person has ever really belonged to another, but Lincoln was not nearly as liberal as I on the matter. - Lo
So the Lincoln Memorial is a condemnation to eternally remind everyone what an asshole he was? (also, do you think he was really unpopular and everyone wanted him dead, and that's why he was shot? LOLOLOL!!!) - Lo
sic semper tyrannus? Says you....JWB - Matthew DeVries
I wouldn't be surprised if there are people alive in certain parts of the U.S. today who absolutely loathe Lincoln. - Victor Ganata
Certainly, Lincoln could never be a libertarian hero. - Victor Ganata
There's people who still think the South was something different than the flat out bad guys. That somehow the importance of the other things on their platform other than slavery (states rights, etc.) somehow equilibrated it's movement as an overall good and noble cause. - Matthew DeVries
I don't think of the North as flat out good guys, either, though. But most of the time in politics, you end up having to side with the lesser of evils. And the Civil War seems to be another case where libertarianism, limited government, and strict interpretation of the Constitution would totally fail. The most likely result of following such a philosophy would be the permanent schism of the Union and the Confederacy. I doubt either nation would've endured intact into the 21st century after that. - Victor Ganata
Which, putting slavery on the table, made it an easy choice. Flip that one issue around, and I'd have routed for the South. That one issue erases the entire rest your manifesto. Something like ritual child rape would have to brought in to trump it. - Matthew DeVries
Expansion hurts my head. http://rationalwiki.com/wiki... - Eric Logan
You're still rooting for the south too today. They're anti-abortion rights, anti-gay rights, and still manage to be anti-civil rights. I definitely don't see those as being unpopular movements today. - Piaw Na