I can't stand mac and cheese, but I am with you on simplicity. And hubby said nom nom. - Michelle Martinez
I _am_ a food snob, and what you just described (Kraft Dinner for our Canadian friends) sounds awesome. - Dave Roth
@shey this is one of those things that i don't mind being ridiculed over - i've had some damned good food in my life and in the right circumstances mac n cheese holds its own with all of it @anna das' right! @michelle it feels like you just told me you don't like chocolate - Marco
There are so many toddlers out there who will tolerate nothing but Kraft Mac n Cheese that a lot of restaurants keep boxes of it on hand. I don't see why adults cannot ask for it too... - Denton Gentry
lol @dave is that really what they call it? I am thinking back through the lyrics of...omg YOU'RE RIGHT they call it Kraft Dinner in "If I had a million dollars"!!!!!! - Marco
Ha ha ha, I really don't like chocolate! The only time I could tolerate chocolate was when I was pregnant. - Michelle Martinez
I know, I know. I have to hear about this all the time from my dark chocolate loving mom. I like white chocolate, surely that should count for something?!? - Michelle Martinez
oh - you like white chocolate - that totally counts - I can't stand dark choc - milk choc followed by white choc is what i love - Marco
I am one of five people on the planet who *loathe* mac-n-cheese. - Roger Benningfield
@roger I am going to block your comment from my memory so that I can go on believing that people inherently desire good things (kidding of course) - Marco
Heh. As a kid, my mom had to force me to eat m-n-c... to me, it was like a plate full of kyptonite Brussels sprouts - Roger Benningfield
The same who created anything else. For my part, I believe that God created them but even if it was another being, etc... I don't deny the existence of dinosaurs if thats what you are asking. - Aaron Brazell
I think there are many variations of 'creationism' -- for example, not all believe the world is 6000 years old. - Shey
Man... I grew up in the post-Bakker era. I'll never forget bringing up dinosaurs in my Southern Baptist Sunday school class as a wee 6 years old. I'm of course prepared for my eternal damnation but I just found the dinosaur books to be much more enjoyable reading. It's the first muxing of cartoons and /science/ I can recall. And by science I mean that which explains and predicts. Hence, the /science/ vs. science. Dinosaur theory has been altered greatly over the past 30 years. - Jay Cuthrell
I'm going to have to agree with you here. Except I will point out that evolution is religion neutral where creationism is religion specific. Since we have a separation of church and state, evolution has more of a right to be in schools than creationism does. - Lindsey Smith
Separation of church and state simply means there is not a state sponsored or endorsed religion, not that religious topics of all variety can't be discussed as they pertain to existing course matter in schools. Personally, I think a look at the creation mythology of religions around the world is extremely fascinating. - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)
Agreed . . . but it does seem like only Christian values and ideals are shared within school walls - Lindsey Smith
i gotta be honest on this one - personal beliefs aside, I could care less what they teach in schools. the day i leave it to any other person or institution to reinforce the ideas or values I think are most important is the day I cede that ability. my faith is important to me but i am not exactly sure what forcing my kid or anyone else's to go through the motions of it will accomplish - guess I should add that i dont necessarily see the harm in teaching creationism purely as a theory many hold to along side - Marco
This is a much tamer thread than the one I mistakenly jumped in on. Good approach . Let each other have their theory. - Josh Haley via fftogo
@Lindsay But in the way evolution is taught, it's it inherently anti-religious seeing as most religions believe in a Creator? - Shey
Several notes: (1) Evolution is a fact. Microbiologists witness it happening on a viral level every day. (2) Evolution-the-fact suggests a theory pertaining to the origin of species. This is often referred to as "evolution", but the fact and theory are not one and the same. (3) Creationism is not a theory; it is a philosophy. It cannot be tested via the scientific method. (4) Even if Creationism did contain a theory, all theories are not created equal, and cannot be taught as if they are. - Roger Benningfield
Evolution may be a "fact," but I also believe we have more "facts" missing from that "fact." - l0ckergn0me
Keep it to private schools or college courses. We're bad enough at science as it is to waste time on teaching anything else. I thought it was bad enough to say '..under God' everyday as a kid. This is going backwards. - Rodfather
I think way too many people get hung up on the word theory. Evolution both explains the mechanics of biological diversity and, this is the real power of it, makes predictive claims as to what will happen in the future. To this second point, it's as accurate as all the other scientific principles we call laws. The reason it's called a theory is that it's not 100% fleshed out yet: some of the details need to be worked out or experimentally observed. The problem with elevating creationism to the level of evolution is that it fails the rigor test: it does not make verifiable predictable claims, nor does it provide any way to empirically observe any of the claims it makes. Because of this, creationism ought not to be taught in schools, not because of establishment clause, but because any relation it has to the content of evolutionary and biological sciences is purely superficial: they're not even in the same realm of inquiry. - Mark Trapp
Some of the details such as, oh say, everything left itself progresses toward a state of disorder? (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) - Kind of insists that if an organization is taking place, i.e. evolution, it must be because of some external properties/forces. Right? Or does that scientific principle not apply when it contradicts evolutionary theory? ;-) - Aaron Brazell
One is a theory, while the other is a fairytale. - Chantal
I disagree and the reason is very simple: Creationism is far too open - you'd have to cover every single religion's take on it. In a classroom setting there simply isn't enough time so it's best to go with the one that, thus far, has the most supporting (and testable) evidence. However, I'm supportive of research projects for exploring creationism. In terms of priority, I'd say its fact (e.g. math), theory (e.g. some evidence) then research. And in university there's much more room for research. - trextor
I thought all this was taught in Sunday school? Or do kids don't go to service and have class afterwards anymore? - Rodfather
Mark put this more eloquently, but - Creationism is not science because it fails validation by the Scientific Method. A "theory" is not science unless it can be validated by the Scientific Method. Therefore Creationism should not be taught in Science class. Scientific theories are acceptable to be taught in Science class. If it's not science it belongs somewhere else. In the case of Creationism, it would be more appropriate to discuss in Religion or Literature class (under comparative mythology) maybe. - Lindsay Donaghe
must say i am impressed with the civility and intellectualism of this debate - from my perspective +1 l0ckergn0me - I'll admit my faith is just that as long as everyone else admits that the same science claiming evolution as fact is the same one that said eggs were good, no - bad, no - good for you. +1 for trapp semantics are a bitch - evolution is far too broad a word to clarify the debate +1 aaron 2nd law, 1st law, biogenisis - at the end of the day there are alot of unknowns - Marco
Aaron, you're adding a value judgement to evolution which does not exist, and equivocating that value judgement to what the second law of thermodynamics states. Evolution doesn't predict going from disorder to order: merely that species adapt to the conditions they find themselves in. This is an experimentally verifiable claim: and this is as far as science goes. Whether or not the end results of evolution are inherently more ordered or better than what existed in the past is not a scientific claim. - Mark Trapp
Aaron, In terms of the second law of thermodynamics, it states that in an *isolated* system (evolution is not an isolated system), the entropy (not order) will *tend* to increase over time. Entropy is the inability of an isolated system to do work. What does this mean in plain terms? The second law of thermodynamics states that isolated systems become more inefficient over time. Not that they go from order to disorder. So even if evolution *was* an isolated system subject to the second law, it would not preclude evolutionary processes over any period of time. - Mark Trapp
I'm fire with adding creationism, as long as they touch on about five or six different theories from other religions, as well. I'm not fine with it if Christians want only their beliefs added. - MiniMage
@Mark thank you... that's a much more civil description than I was going to go into, mostly because I'm too lazy to type all that. Let me just say that people who don't understand science shouldn't use the word "theory" to try to prove or equate anything. - Jason Carreira
Thank you, Jason. The "theory" of Creationism is not a SCIENTIFIC theory. - Lindsay Donaghe
are you serious? Creationism is not a "theory", it is simply a way to get the Bible into the classroom. - Dave Hodson
Why not teach creationism in Sunday school? I don't want my children being taught a religious belief in Science class. - PC Easy via twhirl
Like Marco, I personally don't necessarily care if creationism is taught in the classroom or not. My problem is that if someone doesn't buy into the theory of evolution, they are automatically labeled luddites, crazy, idiotic, etc. y'all know what I mean. When in fact, there are some very intelligent, reasonable, rational people who don't fully accept evolution..... - Shey
Yet everyone holds it up as a standard because there is no other "alternative" when there are so many unanswered questions that most evolution-believers either dismiss or guess away at. - Shey
I'll admit, it's not all false, there has to be some truth to it, but the evidence against it should not be so easily discarded and scoffed at. - Shey
When scientific research produces conclusions which contradict a creationist interpretation of scripture, the strict creationist approach is either to reject the conclusions of the research, its underlying scientific theories, and/or its methodology. For this reason, both creation science and intelligent design have been labeled as pseudoscience by the mainstream scientific community. [http://bit.ly/sdrKC] - MikeAmundsen
Shey: what types of questions do you think are not sufficiently answered by evolutionary processes? - Mark Trapp
@Mark We can have a discussion on that at later time -- Aaron wished not to get into an evolution / creationism debate, and that's the only reason I'm even commenting. My real point is the ostracizing and ridiculing that takes place when one doesn't choose the evolution side of this issue. I think I'm an intelligent person, I've proven that to the people around me, so if people think I'm a fool for not buying into evolution, then so be it. - Shey
Judge rules against ‘intelligent design’ - A six-week trial over the issue yielded “overwhelming evidence” establishing that intelligent design “is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory,” said Jones, a Republican and a churchgoer appointed to the federal bench three years ago. [http://bit.ly/vGnjI] - MikeAmundsen
With the preponderance of evidence supporting evolution, and the lack of any credible counter-evidence, yes, I tend to think negatively about the critical thinking capacities of those who reject it. - Jason Carreira
RE: 2nd Law... The sun (a low-entropy entity) radiates energy to this planet. Most of that energy is radiated back into space, and the total entropy of the universe increases. Meanwhile, the leftovers are gobbled up by our biosphere and turned into fuel in a process that increases entropy at every step of biomechanical conversion. - Roger Benningfield
Right. I don't particularly care to discuss Creation/Evolution BECAUSE I'm labelled an idiot and not worthy of having an opinion. Also, at what point did I bring religion into this or insinuate I wanted religion taught in schools? (Crickets) - Aaron Brazell
Additionally, I can sign on to the idea of micro-evolution. I fully believe that species adapt. I have a problem with a big-bang style theories of creation though. I can't grok, nor will I simply through brainiacs waving flags of science and proclaiming unproven fact, that everything we see in this world simply "happened" through some coincidental happenstance. I can sign on to a hybrid theory of creation + evolution though. My faith can support that. But so can my intellect. - Aaron Brazell
Shey: fair enough. Aaron: would you mind explaining the version of creationism that doesn't include a divine instigator? - Mark Trapp
I believe in a divine instigator. That's me. - Aaron Brazell
Furthermore, I don't think I'm crazy. I'd appreciate that that inane bridge is not crossed. - Aaron Brazell
Aaron, so you're implying that you created yourself and every other biological process in the world? - Mark Trapp
Dude... I'm not God. WTF (Oh I get it... bud dum dum) - Aaron Brazell
belief in a divine instigator is your right. however your belief is not a theory and should not be taught as such. - MikeAmundsen
Sure it's a theory. It may not be a theory you like or want taught, but it's certainly a theory. - Aaron Brazell
No, one theory has a basis in science, the other is a fairy tale that most sane Christians (ie outside of the United States) don't believe either. - Duncan Riley
Shey & Aaron: Calling someone an idiot for not "getting" evolutionary theory would be like calling someone an idiot for not "getting" relativity... 99% of the planet would promptly fall into the "idiot" bucket. And you're right, that's not fair. - Roger Benningfield
Aaron, again, evolution and science as a whole does not involve value judgements regarding the processes they explain. Science, and by extension, evolution and cosmology, makes explanatory and predictive claims that are experimentally verified. That's it. To make sense of the world requires something else, whether or not it's religion or a belief that the world is randomly generated or that the Fonz created everything. I'm all for teaching philosophy in public schools, but it can't be disguised as an alternative to scientific inquiry. It's two different and distinct modes of inquiry that require each other to complete a worldview: they are not in competition. - Mark Trapp
This is always a heated topic. It truly boils down to definitions. The philosophical terms used to clarify the point are primary and secondary efficient causality. Explained in the analogy of the sculptor. Primary efficient causality defines the "who" behind the sculpture and can have discussions about the "person". Secondary efficient causality can only discuss the tools and how they were used. Science is the study of "processes". Biology (Greek Bio-logos) literally means "(logos) words about (bios) life" - James Herbert
Duncan: most Christians in the United States believe evolution is scientifically sound, too. The minority is especially vocal about it, though. The Christian worldview is wholly compatible with the science of evolution. - Mark Trapp
my mistake. belief in a divine instigator _is_ a theory. however, by any definition i find, it is not a *scientific* theory. - MikeAmundsen
@Aaron, again, if you don't understand science, don't use the term "theory" because you're just wrong. Creationism or anything involving God taking some action is not a theory because it is not falsifiable. The end. - Jason Carreira
Jason, I do understand science and you're not the end. Bye. - Aaron Brazell
@Mark Re: most Christians. Can you show me some numbers on that? - Shey
It's pretty dang simple. If you can't validate it through the Scientific Method, it's not Science! If it's not Science, it shouldn't be taught in Science class. Why is that even a debate? - Lindsay Donaghe
With that translation biology becomes the "studies about life" or "studies of the processes about life" Science is concerned about processes: The How or How to of things. Creationism/Intelligent Design begin with a universe creatio ex nihilo. There are no processes to study thus no Science in either the manner of Sir Thomas Bacon or more modern definition. - James Herbert
@lindsay, because people who argue for creationism like to intentionally conflate the vernacular use of the word theory with the strictly defined scientific concept of Theory. They think any idea they can come up with is a "theory" and is on equal footing with Evolution, Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics. It's galling, really. - Jason Carreira
On the other hand there are a number of real zingers thrown out there. My personal favorite (not a value statement but just because I find it humorous) is: "Evolution is just a theory. So is Gravity." - James Herbert
My final comment: Not fully accepting evolution is not a complete dismissal of ALL science. Get that. - Shey
Yes, Evolution is a SCIENTIFIC theory and so is the theory of Gravity. They're not facts... if someone comes up with a better theory that can be validated by the Scientific Method then those will be replaced. Creationism is not a SCIENTIFIC theory and therefore has no comparison to either Evolution or Gravity. - Lindsay Donaghe
@Shey, Evolution is one of the most rigorously tested and verified of all scientific theories. Denying it is, in effect, denying the scientific process. - Jason Carreira
Shey & Aaron: There's a flipside to that unfairness, though. My wife builds large networks for a living, and I (like most geeks) only understand about 1/100th of what she does. The average person, meanwhile, probably doesn't even grasp 1/1000th of it. And yet they depend on their networks to Get Stuff Done, creating a situation where dependency is married to helplessness. The result is a lot of defensiveness, misdirected anger, and magical thinking. Evolution is just networking x1,000,000. - Roger Benningfield
Teach all the creationism you want -- in a humanities class, along with the Hindu creation myth, the Hopi creation myth, the Egyptian creation myth, the Babylonian creation myth (here you'll find the foundations for the Judeo-Christian myth), and the creation myths of every other culture on earth. But in science classes, teach science. Evolution is science, creationism is myth. - William Harryman
On Usenet (or the Google version of it at least...) there are 15427 threads over at alt.talk.creationism. Can FriendFeed keep up? :) - Jay Cuthrell
What I find most disappointing is the tendency to throw darts and daggers instead of a well thought out interesting argument. I mean argument in a manner after Aristotle's Logic rather than the knock down drag out this becomes. It is a truly fascinating topic for discussion. Unfortunately it divides most and in the divide the silence of wisdom is defining. - James Herbert
@Shey - Science has nothing to do with Religion... They shouldn't mix. You could be the most religious person in the world and still accept Science. Whether you accept Evolution or not is not the point... it's whether it's a Scientific theory or not. Why teach something that's not a scientific theory in Science class? Would you want Science taught in Religion class? Why not? Because they're two different things.... - Lindsay Donaghe
Shey, evolution as guided by the Father is accepted by Roman Catholics, Lutherans, the LDS, Greek Orthodox, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Anglicans/Episcopalians; this constitutes 66.1% of the Christian population of the US, according to the American Religious Identification Survey conducted by City University of New York: http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty... - Mark Trapp
Never thought I'd "Hide" my own conversation, but to be honest... it's become hurtful and depressing. So... "Hide" - Aaron Brazell
We are the myth; god is our science. - David Kemper
Too bad I can't hide my own conversation. Meh. - Aaron Brazell
Personally, I think if you reject one facet of science you should reject the whole thing... how can you accept the benefits of Science (brought to us by adhering to the Scientific Method) if you reject what it predicts as a reasonable and verifiable assessment of how the world works? We couldn't have made the advances in medicine and technologies we have if we hadn't used the Scientific Method the way we have. - Lindsay Donaghe
i would not agree with creationism being taught in a scientific context. it's not scientific. there's nothing wrong with creationism, people who believe it are not stupid for so doing, but it's not science. this was a pretty hot topic when i was in school, as well. my opinion as a child was: i'd be happy to learn all about creationism (not specifically Christian creationism, personally, but i wouldn't exclude it from a group of such things in a proper context), but ... - idnan
the attempt to force creationism to masquerade as science makes it a less viable perspective for me. part of why i learned atheism at such a young age was theism's attempt to impose on science, which seemed indicative of theism's inability to stand on its own confidently. that view is somewhat revised in adulthood ... - idnan
@Roger Benningfield Well said! Well Done! You've got it. That is exactly why discussions about this topic break down. It would have taken me the rest of the night to say that. Too much Philosophy major in me I guess. Again, Well Said! - James Herbert
That being said, because Evolution is a theory and not a fact that means that there is room for it being adjusted or replaced when new data comes to light. It's the fact that a SCIENTIFIC theory CAN change in the face of new evidence that makes it so powerful. - Lindsay Donaghe
One day, through science, we will achieve god-like power, shall we say, and then we will create our own worlds, new life forms, and more, and then we will no longer have use for myth because we have become our own creators. No one, not even historians, will ever again misinterpret our achievements, as has been done in the past through "church" and "institutions." - David Kemper
Aaron: I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm bummed that you find this hurtful. A couple folks have been a touch excited in their replies, but it seems exceptionally restrained given that this is, after all, the web. :-) - Roger Benningfield
I think it is pretty obvious that evolution through natural selection is fact, but if you boil it back to the beginning of life, something caused the first living organism to exist. It was either dumb luck, as the theory of evolution states, or an instigator/creator, "helped" the first organism to exist. Dumb luck vs. creator. I have no problem with a science teacher spending 15 minutes to bring up this point and state that as far a scientist are concerned we have no evidence to prove what happened. - Bryan Clark
I don't think that the Creationists only want 15 minutes, Bryan... they want every point that is made about Evolution to have a Creationism counterpoint. Whether there was an instigator is outside the scope of Science. Science doesn't confirm or deny or have a theory about that... But people have their opinions, for sure. - Lindsay Donaghe
No, it's just me. I'm the crazy, religious zealot. Plus, I'm on edge with moving tomorrow and a touch depressed. Carry on, folks... I'm just checking out. - Aaron Brazell
@Bryan, Evolution doesn't say anything about the origin of life, only the process by which it has adapted. - Jason Carreira
Aaron, I don't think anyone is calling you a crazy religious zealot. What you proposed didn't have anything to do with that. It was about the idea that Creationism is a theory just like Evolution. People have been trying to convince you that Creationism is not a scientific theory, which is quite a different thing from calling out your beliefs. - Lindsay Donaghe
Duncan, your statement, "most sane Christians (ie outside of the United States)", is pretty offensive. - Larry Huffman
I don't know how you give Creationism more than 15 minutes. Even in Sunday School, creation is covered in 2 minutes. "God did it, and he used God magic." - Bryan Clark
@Lindsay Why are we trying to convince him? When ever has the attempt to be "right" ever convinced anyone? Apologetics rarely converts. - James Herbert
There's nothing wrong with teaching creationism alongside Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. But not in a science classroom. - Ed Kohler via twhirl
"sane christians", "he used God magic" and "Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy" now the topic has truly degraded itself past all reason. What follows is a shouting match. Potentially void of wisdom. How very sad. - James Herbert
Maybe "God magic" was a little insensitive, but the problem with creationism is that it lacks the "how". How did a creator/instigator create and/or instigate. It is difficult to teach a theory with no meat, even if the majority of the country believes it. A bullet next to evolution stating that many people believe in creationism and there is no scientific means to disprove it should be sufficient. (although it is not) - Bryan Clark
You know both candidates were asked to speak with scientists just as they spoke to the pastor of that mega church. They both turned it down. Too bad we can't work on solving the real issues in this country, rather than some BS religious crap that doesn't really matter. - PC Easy via twhirl
I learned evolution at school and creationism at home and I believe in both. Then I grewup and married a Science teacher. I married him twice. Once in the middle of the ocean and once in a castle with all family present. Both times under God, in front of family surrounded by nature. I pray for good health while I take medicine that science created. Who says you can't have it both ways? - TheMacMommy via twhirl
how can a body that is so faulty and poorly constructed as ours be the work of a perfect being? - alphaxion
also, we have observed evolution in many organisms both in the wild and in the lab - fruit flies and bacterium for starters! - alphaxion
"“Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency. Governor Palin shares John McCain’s commitment to overturning Roe v. Wade, the agenda of Big Oil and continuing George Bush’s failed economic policies — that’s not the change we need, it’s just more of the same,” said spokesman Bill Burton." - Russellreno via Bookmarklet
was she at all responsible for the pork re: bridge to nowhere? - anna
@anna according to her speech she told Congress "no thank you" on the bridge - it will be interesting to see questions like these really get vetted in the coming weeks as information surfaces - Marco
I am just WAITING for Bill Clinton to say that people with no foreign policy experience shouldn't be elected Vice President. WAITING. - Ontario Emperor via fftogo
McCain needs to pick someone that is conservative since most conservatives see him as liberal and only slightly to the right of Obama. - Paul L. McCord Jr.
Re my Bill Clinton comment, Dave Winer went one further. Not only does Palin not have national experience, she doesn't have American experience. (Alaska is kinda weird, you see...) - Ontario Emperor via fftogo
@anna - actually, she is responsible for killing the "bridge to nowhere." She is also playing a large and public role in getting the current corrupt congressional delegation from Alaska kicked out of office. The state GOP had no idea what it was getting itself into when it appointed her head of the state oil commission... - Forrest Cox
Laughs are one thing, stupidity is another. - drew olanoff
They would be the first people to go into a PC hissyfit if she was a democrat. - Jay Tannenbaum
Exactly, Jay. I am a Dem, and I am irritated at how it is acceptable for Dems to make comments about her appearance. I may disagree with most of what she believes in, but judging a women on appearance is wrong no matter what her beliefs may be. This goes for Cindy McCain, too. - Michelle Martinez
After sputtering this morning the media is going to go after her hard -- every stereotype in the book (she does happen to look a little like Geena Davis, which won't help). What people don't seem to understand is that conservatives just love her and it will galvanize the right even more. - Jay Tannenbaum
+3. Lets give ourselves another 12 hours of juvenile humor. Then lets shelf the VPILF meme. Although I think @FakeSarahPalin has some legs. Err..u know what i mean. - Elliott Ng
The shameless pandering for Hillary's supporters is pretty insulting, IMHO. - Eric
As if "pandering" and "ploy" are the exclusive domain of the GOP...politics, by definition, is all about pandering and ploys...especially when it's time to elect a President... - Live4Soccer
I agree Soccer . . . both sides are employing any and all tactics to gain supporters. I just felt like speaking out about this particular one. - Lindsey Smith
Well, I didn't think HRC supporters would actually refuse to vote for Obama, even though McCain as none of their interests in mind, so there is no telling what ploy will work for their votes. - Rahsheen(isSoAwesome)
Why must we assume that choosing Palin is a ploy or tactic to gain Hillary supporters or women voters. That seems more sexist than the idea that she might be the right person for the job. - tsudohnimh
@tsudohnimh The Republicans' timing to be progressive seems a little more than coincidental. I don't have a lot of faith in anyone's ability to have a unique or genuine strategy, either democrat or republican. - Lindsey Smith
I agree that genuineness is not a trait I associate with Politicians but I do think Conservatives have long been more progressive on Race and Sex. Clarence Thomas, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell. Even on the political spectrum I have opposed affirmative action initiatives because I feel they tell people you aren't good enough to do it on your own. I think Dems have long focused on race/sex too long. I just want the best of best. - tsudohnimh
Some people would find fault with McCain's choice of VP no matter what. Black, young, woman, etc. someone would always say it was pandering to some group. I guess the only choice that McCain could have made that someone would not say he was pandering would be an old, white male. - Michael Tefft
"latest Republican ploy" kinda says it all. If I were a woman, I think I would only be able to manage a shake of my head and weary sigh at this point. - Michael W. May (Joffi)
I wish more people could see through the veil of the political machine and stop the BLIND allegiance to either party...while we need to have the opposing parties for balance in our system of Government, never forget that at their core, they both are slimy power machines driven by the all mighty $$$....For every Ted Stevens, there's a Donald Riegle. For every John Edwards, there's a Eliot Spitzer. And so on and so on... - Live4Soccer
It does also need noted that though this is not the first major party female VP candidate, it will be the first /Republican/. Think on how far that is coming. - Michael W. May (Joffi)
@tsudo Your last point was also good . . . i just missed it. @Soccer I would say it looks like I have a blind allegiance to democrats . . . but really their beliefs just align with mine. - Lindsey Smith
I am glad you feel qualified to speak for what women would do Michael. At least there is a woman on the ticket. Democrats rejected a woman as a candidate and refused to choose one for VP. I guess they were afraid that they might be accused of 'pandering' to HRC supporters. - Michael Tefft
heh, I was waiting for that. I can empathize. My life and upbringing make that possible more than most men. So while I do not feel qualified to speak on their behalf, I can quite easily share my thoughts on the matter. - Michael W. May (Joffi)
I still don't whole-heartedly agree that Dems rejected a woman candidate. There was a lot more at play there that we didn't get to hear about. She had a lot of support. - Lindsey Smith
The pick isn't a ploy to pull dem votes. It's a move to grab moderates, independents, and shore up the conservative base. "soccer moms" that listen to limbaugh. There are enough out there to make a difference in a close election (which this is shaping up to be). - Jason Kaneshiro
So when Obama picked Biden was he pandering to old, white males? BTW, Biden is only 6 years younger than McCain. Where are all the too old jokes? And I agree with AlexScoble that this is going to be a historic election. - Michael Tefft
kick-butt speech... she will do well ... brains - gregory lent
its really a "damned if you do..." situation - he picks a white male its "heh, figures the GOP would pick someone from the boys' club, panderers" he picks a woman its "heh, picking a woman?! panderers" I can understand the distrust but its not like he selected a random woman - she's a popular governor who won by upsetting the establishment in a state that personifies the word, understands energy issues but has ruffled alot of feathers by taking them on - she has a lot to offer - Marco
Kamilah: good point, that alone was enough to send me running away. - Sally Church
@Marco true, but what does she offer on abortion? Another staunchly pro-life opinion. Not really the most popular position to have if you're looking for women's votes. - Aaron Krug
@Marco Not to mention Creationist views, and lets not forget her husband works for BP. Can you say 'lobbyist influenced'? Sorry, that's just too much for me to go for. - Aaron Krug
I guess they're hoping some HRC supporters will only vote on gender. I simply don't want Palin *that* close to the Presidency. She's *way* too inexperienced (mayor of a 6,000 pop town just 2 years ago), cozy with big oil and has abused her power. There were other VP picks that I might have disagreed with in principle, but wouldn't have been *scared* of being President. - AJ Kohn
I like how everything the Republicans do is called a "ploy" - Craig Eddy
I've written as much elsewhere, but this entire line of "outraged / insulted" reasoning is misguided. Sarah's pick isn't meant to try to win liberal-leaning female votes. If McCain wanted those, he'd have picked a pro-choice executive with private-sector credentials (he had two at his disposal here - Meg and Carly). This selection was made to shore up the conservative base, which it will... - Forrest Cox
AJ, Way too inexperienced? Sounds like criticism I have heard of Obama. As for Aaron, lobbyist influenced? like Joe Biden isn't? - Michael Tefft
@AJ - so on the basis of political experience, am I right to understand that you'd rather elect a person who's had a very quiet stint in the state legislature and a virtual no-show term in the national senate over a former mayor and current governor with a history of wrecking political establishments? You're walking right into the experience trap Republicans are hoping for - there are ways to attack Palin, but experience is a mistake. - Forrest Cox
Of course, had HRC been the nominee, none of this would have been an issue... - Forrest Cox
Concur, Forrest, we Republicans are a sneaky bunch. ;-) - Michael Tefft
@aaron i'm not sure her husband's role with BP ='s lobbyist influence anymore than if he was instead a supervisor at a GM manufacturing plant - that plus she has done anything but ingratiate herself to the oil interests that are ubiquitous in AK - Marco
Palin has been endorsed by Fishing and Forestry Associations in Alaska. Hardly in BP's pocket. - Michael Tefft
In her first year as governor of Alaska, Palin raised taxes on the oil industry, pushed through ethics legislation amid a burgeoning corruption investigation of Alaska lawmakers, bucked her party’s old guard and ordered her administration to seek fewer congressional earmarks after Alaska’s “bridge to nowhere” became a national symbol of pork-barrel spending.
Her popularity soared above 80 percent when she enacted an ethics bill and shelved pork-barrel projects by fellow Republicans. - Michael Tefft
@Michael touche, you've got me on the Biden thing. @Marco I would be saying the same thing if he was a field manager for GM, I don't think either position is free of conflicts of interest. She isn't big oil's fav pick, but she isn't exactly their worst pick either. I'm not saying she hasn't done good things for AK but our views are too far apart on too many things for me to even consider supporting that ticket. Then again, its not like I was in their camp to begin with, so its not like they lost anything. - Aaron Krug
@krug I think the phrase "fortune favors the bold" applies here - this could turn out to be a very, very poor choice BUT if it doesn't... - Marco
@Forrest: Yes because City Council/Mayor/Governor in Alaska does not match State Legislator/Senator from Illinois. Nor does it match Biden's record. She's the least experienced on either ticket by a wide margin. Think of it this way, should Obama and McCain both get hit by a bus ... Biden v. Palin, who do you want in the driver's seat and who do you think wins? - AJ Kohn
@Michael: Ethics. Pressure an official to fire a trooper who's in a custody battle with her sister. Fire that official when he doesn't fire the trooper. Give $10K to the replacement after he resigns because of sexual harassment issues. Oh, but the first official got nothing. No, I'm not sure ethics is a real winning theme for Palin. Stick to pro-life anti-gay and she'll help secure the conservative base. - AJ Kohn
Wasn't going to comment on this but since when does being president of the PTA, excellent point guard, and thinking that the VP job isn't productive qualities for someone a step away from the presidency - Joel Martinez
“Here's an interesting thought: no matter which party wins the election, it'll be a pretty big first - either the first non-caucasian president, or the first female vice president. I'm a little more excited about that than anything else!”
i thought bill clinton was america's first 'black' president. silly me. lolz - .LAGizmoto
It's not just about making history - it's about setting the world back on the right track - Chris Saad via twhirl
McCain needs to keep the votes from those who would have voted for HRC, had she made it to be the dems candidate, but were moving towards him once the nomination was lost. Not much more information about Palin this side of the pond, but it sounds a bit like a last minute contingency plan to me. - dario
McCain's choice of running mate is obvious pandering to get just that reaction from voters. Palin is a weak candidate, maybe weaker that Quayle who we remember couldn't spell potato or some such ridiculous thing. - Rafael Robayna
half-caucasian. either that, or we can just say he's black (versus *non*-caucasian) like everyone else. sorry, feeling nitpicky today. - Kamilah Gill
Except that Palin is staunchly anti-abortion. What may seem like a win for equality would in effect be a loss for women's rights. Firsts in gender or race may have novelty, but let's not forget there are long term results from our choices here. - Sherard Ewing
For me it's more about what's the right thing to do, who represents the best opportunity for a better America? Who is going to dig us out of the hole Dubya dug so resolutely? That's what gets me excited. It's nothing to do with race, gender, religion or whatever. I'm now an Obamacan because I genuinely believe he will offer this country the best chance right now. - Sally Church
Yep this is shaping up to be a very pivotal election. We're presented with two very different ideas of the "american dream" (yes, it seems we don't all agree on this means) - and how to achieve it. - Jason Kaneshiro
I agree with Chris. It's nice that we're making history, but much more is at stake than history. - Chieze Okoye
It will be interesting for Mcain and his running mate. I mean he doesn't even think women should get paid the same as men. - PC Easy via twhirl
not an Obamacan or a McCainiac, I'm an American - Jeff Quinton
For most jobs in the tech sector, you can't actually do much to guarantee that women will get paid the same as men. Most of the time the people working alongside each other have no idea what the other people are getting paid. And employers should be allowed to base pay on experience and merit. I don't see how you can equalize pay in most non-unionized jobs where there isn't a set pay scale. - AlexScoble(Robert'sBro)
I'm not against the idea of women getting paid the same as men for the same job given that they both have similar experience and performance, but I don't see how this can be effectively regulated in industries where people are salaried. - AlexScoble(Robert'sBro)
I realized that too -- very cool indeed. - Tamar Weinberg
Exactly what I told my kids over lunch today. Historic and way overdue. - Kevin C. Tofel
There are firsts and there are meaningful firsts -- I'll take the Obama first over the Palin first any day. - Mitch Ratcliffe via twhirl
Couldn't have said it better myself, Chris :) - Mona N.
Palin is a joke conservative so I disagree. Obama needs to win to change this country for the better and for the future - Photo Larry via twhirl
That's exactly what my History teacher said. - OekelWm
I am just hoping that the disgruntled Hillary supporters are not taken in by the "yay, another woman" sham being propagated by McCain. Palin is anti-choice, anti-science (supports creationism in schools and doesn't believe climate change is man-made), anti-wildlife (supports drilling in ANWR, opposed classification of polar bears as endangered, supports hunting from the air - yeah, that's real sporting..) - Marci Maleski
Marci, why take the negative? I'd say she's pro-human survival (against killing our own or protecting animals at the cost of our economy), and pro-not having your opinion ridiculed because someone else's opinion is accepted as a matter of public policy. At least creationism can explain first cause and the origin of matter and energy...and the disappointing shortage of transitional species. - klecu
I can't type in Twitter for some reason. That should read, "Lost followers on Twitter/FF, probably over my shift to political stuff for the morning." I'm not really down about it, but I figured it would happen. The social contract is a reference to one of my first interactions with Cyndy, where she wrote this piece: http://profy.com/2008/05/22/th... - Mark Trapp
One argument that I've seen is the "purity in the channel" argument. "He used to talk about Linux, and now he talks about Obama! I'm unsubscribing!" I solve this by talking about everything, all the time; that way, people hopefully know what they're getting into when they follow me. - Ontario Emperor via fftogo
