LSW: Origins [edited]
Once upon a time, when the stars attained certain positions in the sky, the Libraryfolk would gather. In their sensible shoes and plastic-framed glasses, they would ride the escalators up and down, down and up. They would zig and zag to avoid unscrupulous vendors in the exhibit hall. They would brave receptions to forage for sustenance and drinks. They would search in vain for passable coffee. In their sweaters and pashminas, they would shiver in underground caverns with poor wifi, listening to the drone of the Elders. And so it was, year after year, season after season, for such are the ways of our people. - maʀtha
Every now and again, there would be one among them who would say, quietly and firmly, "Enough". She would slip away to a hallway or a lobby corner, sit on the floor, plug in her portable electronic devices, and wait. - maʀtha
[please to continue the tale] - maʀtha
*nudge* - maʀtha
you set the bar pretty high here. It's going to be tough to match your prose. - DJF
well, I wasn't around in the earliest days, so my knowledge of those times is limited. I came in after the meebo room was well established, and the PB Wiki. Maybe someone could tell me a bit more about that time period and I could resume? - maʀtha
for example, which came first, lobbyconning, tweeting, or blogging? who were among the first lobbyconners? - maʀtha
Calling Steve 'n Iris. Steve 'n Iris to the white courtesy phone. - Joe
I knew all of this once, my brain is just crapping out on me :) - maʀtha
rats, so the tweeting was before the lobbyconning, my sequence is all wrong. that disrupts my entire narrative. hrm. stupid reality. - maʀtha
I still might be able to make this work. - maʀtha
But I am guessing that a lot of the LSWers knew each other from blogs before twitter came to the fore? I came to blogging too late to know the full history of the LSW. - Joe
I found out about LSW from a blog (Steve's or Josh's?) before I joined the Meebo room. It took me a long time to join twitter. - maʀtha
I found out about the LSW from Meredith in an American Libraries mag article. [Let me see if I can find the citation...Or maybe it was something she wrote about in her blog.] - Joe
I found out about LSW chat room from someone...I think CIL maybe? I do remember that the first two people I talked to in the meebo chat room were these people named grasshopper librarian (martha) and pegasus librarian (iris) who were both very, very nice to me. especially since I think I was stuck in an airport - Sir Shuping is just sir
April 27th, 2007, Josh tweeted about being fed up with ALA dues. Then he tweeted about starting the library society of the world. People were to tweet back their names and titles in this organization. It was a total joke for a while, with people adding names and bylaws to the wiki he started that day. I added the bylaw that we would always be one short of a quorum. I still stand by that bylaw. Another bylaw was that there would never be any dues. - lris
I consider myself a founding member, having joined on that day and added a bylaw to the wiki. I'm sure there are a lot of other founding members. - lris
Bingo, this is how I learned of the LSW. - Joe
Then came the meebo room. Then came the CIL presentation with Laura Harris, Steve Lawson, at least two other people, and a room full of meebo room users projected on the wall (including Jason Griffey and Walt Crawford and many many others). THEN came Friendfeed, which I joined reluctantly, feeling like it was a fad and not nearly as easy to use as Twitter... So judge my opinions of new things wisely in future. - lris
I believe that I was around at the start, but I no longer have any recollection of it. - laura x
I met you because you were there, so I believe you were there at the start as well. - lris
Anybody have a link to the Neff tweet? - Joe
I looked for that a few years back with no luck. - lris
I can fix the storyline! I'm going to eat, first, though, so hang tight. - maʀtha
I can't wait to read the Dragons and Windmills section. - John Dupuis
*bump* - bentley
The OP of this thread is dated Feb 18th *OF WHICH YEAR?!* c'monn FF just four more charaters in the date field... - Aaron the Librarian
i learned about it from ruth kneale who was arranging to a -meeting- drinking binge at an SLA :) - Christina Pikas
2013? - maʀtha from Android
LSW originates every day. No lie - Aaron the Librarian from Android
Rebump. We need to fill in some of the gaps that are at the LSW Origins page. - Joe
Martha gets the feeling exactly right. The facts are all well and good, but aren't we really all here because we were looking to escape the droning of the elders (and I mean elders in spirit, not age). - laura x from iPhone
(Thanks Laura for the parenthetical there. Not that I don't do my share of droning.) - walt crawford
I believe (but could be just misremembering) that I suggested the "of the World" bit because (again correct me) at the time I was the only non North American playing along..... - Kathryn is a free elf
That sounds right, Kathryn. - laura x from iPhone
This is how I learned about the LSW, in April of 2008. I joined soon there after. I worked with some others to set up the meetup in a Seattle dive bar during SLA that Christina mentioned. - Joe
Sept 2007 updated on LSW ... after first mentioning it 13 May 2007 , concluding with "The Library Society of the World is the best, most efficient, egalitarian and effective... more... - Kathryn is a free elf
Looking for a Venn diagram that I thought was posted here in the past couple of months. It had "things you can google," "things I can google," "things that I can get for you," and a large area that was unfindable. I had a printout by gave it away thinking I could just reprint it, but I can't find it. Does it sound familiar to anyone?
Of course, I found it after I posted this. It was in my downloads folder. - bentley
liked for the first comment :) welcome to the club - Aaron the Librarian
:-) - bentley
Hmmmmmmm, can I borrow this? - Meg VMeg
Thanks! - Meg VMeg
How we got here A historical look at the academic teaching library and the role of the teaching librarian -
shared on FB [eta: meaning I saw this here and then shared it on FB] - Aaron the Librarian
Is anyone here on a Canvas campus?
We are. - Marianne
Have you used it? How do you like it, or what do yo hear? We just got word we are most likely moving off BlackBoard on to Canvas in the next 12-18 months. - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
We are. I like it better than any other LMS I've ever used. - kaijsa
I've barely used it (part of my job is supporting the people who are not as fast to transfer off of Moodle to the new system, so that keeps me pretty focused on Moodle for now). But even as an inexperienced user, I like it far better than Moodle, Blackboard, or D2L (the three other LMS's I've used). I was actually part of the selection committee that picked it from a wide field, and we... more... - Marianne
That's really good to hear! This will be coming from the system, so we haven't had a process to build buy in or make a decision in a communal way. - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
there do seem to be a few printing related challenges, but less than we had on moodle or i had as a recent student using blackboard? also our printers are so borked in multiple ways (plus we have weird printing usage patterns) that I'm extremely hesitant to blame Canvas for even a piece of that... - Marianne
Customer service is leaps and bounds better than what we got from our previous vendor, too. - kaijsa
This makes me feel much better about the possibly moving. Thanks!! - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
We might be moving to canvas. I don't know anything about it though. - Joe
I need to pull a fake budget out of a hat for a school project. Anyone have an idea of how I would get ballpark site license pricing for bepress Digital Commons and Springshare LibGuides without contacting the vendors directly? I have emails in to my work colleagues but not sure if they'll see the email before the paper is due.
I know i know, procrastinated worse than the students I help. The cobbler's children go barefoot, etc. - LibrarianOnTheLoose
Ask on Twitter? - RepoRat
Wouldn't it be sweet if there was, like, pricing available on the vendor's website instead of all of the incessent bullshit? How much would we save in labor $$$? Why all the bullshit secrecy? WHY WHY? [[existential crisis ensues]] - barbara fister
thanks, my work colleagues actually apparently check their emails in the middle of the day on saturday, LOL. Barbara, i am right there with you! - LibrarianOnTheLoose
How big a library? How many potential eyeballs? I'd go with 1200 for a bare bones libguides guess and anywhere from 3 to 5k for the bepress depending on projected colectionary size - Aaron the Librarian from Android
Thanks Aaron, I got the numbers from my coworkers after all. But Ms. Fister is getting at my real issue here. - LibrarianOnTheLoose
Secret Agent Fister is the LSW conscience and authority poker... well, at least one of them really - Aaron the Librarian
I want the video of her saying the above - maʀtha
how do we like comments on here again? - Aaron the Librarian
LSW: Joe
Interesting. "Let Methospace help you meet your research needs". I am not quite sure how Meth is going to help my research needs. *Reads email* Oh, you should have said Methodspace in the subject line....
I am the one who (knocks OR calls) - Pete's Got To Go from Android
Perhaps named in honor of Methos? - maʀtha
My first thought was martha's - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
Mentos space? :-p - Hedgehog
MethOS: The Operating System. - Joe
Martha: also my first thought. He was a researcher, right? - bentley
~Courtney F
So in relation to the Adobe thing ( ...what, if anything, are you telling your patrons about it? And how? Social media? Tutorial videos?
Dear all, who would you get if you wanted or needed someone expert to talk on altmetrics? Preferably someone who has done work in the social science areas?
Heather Piwowar or Stacy Konkiel from ImpactStory. - RepoRat
Ditto--either they'll be happy to talk to you or they'll know someone else to refer you to. - Hedgehog
I can third that - we've had Heather come out to Illinois - she was great. - Sarah from FreshFeed
Meg VMeg
How is your "new school year insanity" going? I think this might be my last really hectic week (I will certainly have other hectic weeks, but not so many in a row, usually).
I'm happy for you, genuinely. The entirety of fall semester is bonkers for me. This year I have suffered from bonkers inflation. At least three days a week I am here 8am to at least 8pm and I am basically existing on whatever food the library coffee shop has to offer. We cannot hire our two vacant faculty and one staff position fast enough for me. - kaijsa
soooooooooo tired. (nothing but training students almost all day every day, fielding calls on weekends from new student supervisors, helping people move and suchlike on the weekends). good things but I am ready for the pace to slacken. - Marianne
it's... really, really bad. New course plus keynote plus accreditation site visit next week plus TA weirdness and other low-level hassles, and I am getting close to the red overload line. - RepoRat
Yeah, we are super low on staff, and there's only so much one human can do, so... everyone is crazy. - Regular Amanda
With migrating to Alma, it's been feeling like new-school-year-insanity around here since May. I'm exhausted. - Kirsten
I've felt like I haven't stopped since mid-August and I don't see it stopping soon. - ellbeecee
I've got two major commitments this year that are outside the library (coordinating the first-year seminar program, which launched this fall, and chairing a high-level college-wide committee) and there are days when it feels like I'm not librarianing at all. - Catherine Pellegrino
Y'all are making me feel guilty. I'm on sabbatical and lazy as hell. - barbara fister
Like Kirsten, migrating to Alma on top of normal heavy workload is exhausting. Although my heart goes out to Kaijsa, as at least I can work from home at night. - Jen
Liked for Secret Agent Fister's comment - Aaron the Librarian
I have opted for sanity... I leave and don't look back between 8 or 9 hours after I arrive. I accomplish less. I own that. But if more is expected, we need to hire someone else. I have (at strictly informal count [eta: I have a spreadsheet of daily documentation]) 3.5 years (yes, years -- where 2000 hours = year) of comp time on my ledger. That's roughly 8 years of 60-80 hour weeks. If... more... - Aaron the Librarian
I worked more than I was paid for during our Alma implementation but now I'm trying really hard to get back to my proper 8 hours a day *with statutory breaks*. If for no other reason than to set a good example for my staff. :-) But over-working is a hard habit to break.... - Deborah Fitchett
My September wants to kill me, so I'm really looking forward to Oct 3. Theoretically. I haven't had time or will to look and see what October is bringing..... Hope everyone gets some space for rejuvenation soon!! - RudĩϐЯaЯïan from YouFeed
I'm trying not to cry? I was out sick for 8 out of 10 working days in early September, and we're down 20% on staff, and 25% on budget, and, um, yeah? - Jenica
Still hectic here! Frantic, even. And committee work is just kicking in. - maʀtha
Sounds like we're all struggling here, and I sympathize and empathize. Work-life balance is nonexistant at the moment and I'm also letting balls drop on some of my committees, which sucks for the other members. I guess we can all be here for each other, though. - kaijsa
yup, we can, and thank goodness for it. - Marianne
i'm hoping that this is my last truly insane week, as all of my non-work commitments have required something of me this week in addition to start of school madness. - ~Courtney F
here's a hug for {{{ Jenica }}} Too much bad at once time. - barbara fister
And you all, if we drop enough balls maybe we can have fun playing with them! signed, mistress of all lazy. - barbara fister
I thought my new school year insanity was dying down, then I cleaned up the accumulated pile on my desk. I've got at least another week of tight deadlines. - Elizabeth Brown
Look what I just found! Storytime!
"it turns out that love will win out over anger everytime" <3 <3 <3 - maʀtha
btw, this is Aaron D reading - maʀtha
Caleb and Kate by William Steig :) - Aaron the Librarian from Android
Regular Amanda
Ebooks what the what, edition 478: for those that have JSTOR ebooks, can you confirm that there is no way to search within a single ebook title? I see search within an ebook chapter, or across the entire JSTOR corpus, but not within a single ebook title. It's not like search is one of the basic benefits of an ebook or anything. Am I crazy?
Let me say that I largely appreciate the JSTOR ebook approach, this just seems like a really weird interface oversight. - Regular Amanda
Not in the way one would expect (which indeed seems odd!) but using Advanced Search I could put in the item title and then search on another term. Did also pull up reviews of said book that used keyword but that didn't cause too much noise. - Lisa Hinchliffe
I will have to check on this tomorrow. - Joe
Without having to go to the advanced search, I can search within a chapter. - Joe
Also, for an advanced search, it doesn't seem like JSTOR thinks that the subtitle is part of the title of this book. "Christian Monitors: The Church of England and the Age of Benevolence, 1680-1730" Doing a title search on that doesn't seem to find that title. - Joe
Thanks for sharing this! We haven't turned on JSTOR in GOBI yet but are in the process of reviewing pros/con's of publishers to add and it's helpful to have this detail. - Galadriel C. from Android
So it seems like you can either use the main JSTOR advanced search to combine item title with term, or search within individual chapters, but not search from the actual book home page. We just submitted an enhancement request for this, because usability-wise it seems like one would assume you could search through the ebook at the ebook's home page. Galadriel, we like JSTOR's pricing and... more... - Regular Amanda
Galadriel, did you encounter any issues with the license agreement? We're stuck waiting for JSTOR legal to approve our amendments. - Holly's favorite Anna
Anna, we haven't even gotten that far. If we can't activate in GOBI under an existing agreement, we probably won't pursue further until after the new year when I'm done with journal renewals. - Galadriel C. from Android
Me, to a student, making fun of my inability to follow alphabetical order: "No, really, I can alphabet."
I alphanumeric at a collegiate level. - Julian
No really! I acn tyope! - Aaron the Librarian
Holly's favorite Anna
Pulled circ stats from the past five years. Filtered to a specific series. Created a spreadsheet with that data. VLOOKUP subject collections from the package title list. Average use per year. Cost per use for online if consistent with print. Analysis. Report sent. #fuckyeaheresourceslibrarian
Stuff you can google - Stuff I can google - Stuff you can't google, but I can help you find -- All the Stuff. [EDIT: by Karl G. Siewert]
how should one attribute this image? - maʀtha
Unfortunately, I don't remember where I got it. I thought it was on FF, but I couldn't find it. And I might've renamed it when I saved it, which makes things even more complicated. - bentley
Found it! (That's not where I got it, but this one does have attribution) - bentley
Thank you so much, I was trying to remember this! - Meg VMeg
Be careful - the name is misspelled in the notes. It's Karl G. Siewert, not Siewern. - Christa
Because "I" am more experienced at searches and syntax and The Google. - bentley
Or as Donald Rumsfeld might say, the googled Google, the ungoogled Google, and the ungoogled Ungoogle. - Greg GuitarBuster
Oh wow, I love that. The ungoogled Ungoogle. Maybe pertinent: latest Pew report says "Millennials’ lives are full of technology, but they are more likely than their elders to say that important information is not available on the internet": - Regular Amanda
I'm probably a bad corporate citizen, but I just showed a first-year student how to find used print copies of her textbooks online for cheap. Textbook rentals through the bookstore are highway robbery.
… but a good librarian for giving the student what she needed. - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
Hey, if the used print copies are legal (helloooooo, First Sale Doctrine), then I'm all for it. - Catherine Pellegrino
Oh, yeah, I know I'm legal. I am having a crabby moment about the bookstore. - kaijsa
I think I'm actually just crabby with The Man in general. - kaijsa
I can get behind that. :) - Catherine Pellegrino
There are more cataloger cartoons at that website, including a series on RDA and a cartoon on reference weeding.
Show all
these are soooooooooo great - RepoRat
The Bib Record Challenge. "The Ice Bucket Challenge has been a phenomenal success, and so I decided to see if I could use a similar challenge to raise awareness of a very important issue plaguing catalogers:"
Mr. The Jason Fleming
eresource links are clearly made by the beverage industry to inspire heavy drinking
Mr. The Jason Fleming
I had a dream last night where the library did a hostile takeover of the theater
Here's an odd OA counterfactual idea: imagine if scholarly publishing worked like literary and short fiction publishing: publishers pay authors (admittedly, not much) for first publication rights only, with six months exclusive, and future republication requires that the original journal be cited ("this article first publish in...."). The...
The article is publicly visible, or not, in the publisher's site at their whim, but all rights are reserved, and belong to the author. That would piss off both the OA advocates and the publishers. - DJF from Android
Doesn't seem so bad to me. Authors still have option to license as OA. - RepoRat
That's actually fairly common (I'd almost say "standard") for nonfiction serial publishing as well--freelancers are paid for one-time rights, *maybe* with a six-month exclusive, *maybe* with citation on republishing. (Usually, you'd tweak the material before reselling it to another publisher, so the issue wouldn't arise.) And authors retain copyright. - walt crawford
One difference: with some magazines, the payment isn't a pittance. - walt crawford
So, if you've got an institutional OA fund, do you warn applicants about dodgy journals, even if they meet the criteria of the fund? The OMICS journals (, for example, are not indexed anywhere, but I've got somebody who's submitted an article for publication there.
When MfPOW had one, it clearly stated that DOAJ membership for the journal was a prerequisite for funding -- and yes, I looked it up for every single application (unless it was one of the no-duh majors). Given that DOAJ is starting to clean house, this may make even more sense now. - RepoRat
We ask for OASPA and it's a limited enough fund that anything too sketchy we'd probably decline. (Note, I'm not making those calls at present) - Hedgehog
Anyway, to actually answer your question (sorry), yes, it happened a couple times and yes, I warned. Never made a damn bit of difference, but at least my conscience felt clean. - RepoRat
We say, "doaj, or assisting their criteria". The problem is a journal that meets the criteria, charges over $900 in fees, but isn't indexed anywhere, not even in proquest. - DJF from Android
Well, at least the Oral Health and Dental Management journal is indexed for Medline (at least thru a year ago) there's at least that criteria met? I say let the author know your concerns so as least they can make a more informed decision - Hedgehog
How old is it, DJF? Has there been time to get it indexed? - RepoRat
Two issues in 2012 (Jan and Mar), three issues (Mar, Aug, Dec) and one conference proceedings in 2013, two issues (Mar, Jun) so far in 2014. - DJF
This is on the homepage of a sister journal (Cellular & Molecular Biology, "It has to be stated that the cybercriminal robber of my journal, named Maixent, a heavily condemned former professor, ejected from the university like a lousy dog, deprived of all his titles and functions has had the cheek to publish in my... more... - DJF
Cellular & Molecular Biology is, in fact, indexed in Medline. - DJF
We apparently require an impact factor of at least 1. (No comment.) - Deborah Fitchett
That's actually a fairly reasonable use of impact factor IMO. It does leave brand-new journals out in the cold, however. - RepoRat
Wow, DJF. That's... eye-opening. In a LOLWUT kind of way. - RepoRat
The more time one spends with OMICS, the stranger it becomes (and I'm currently plowing, very slowly, through several hundred OMICS journals). The strangeness includes the possibility that there may be some solid journals among the OMICS battalion. - walt crawford
[And I have to give OMICS credit: most journals dropped APCs from $1,800+ levels to $500-$900 levels within the past few months.] - walt crawford
That's the thing. It's a platform. So the quality of the individual titles depends on the editorial board, because there's no corporate oversight. - DJF from Android
DJF: Is this not true of most publishers with lots of journals--unless they're forced to recognize failure at a specific journal? (I'm not arguing OMICS is good; there's a whole raft of "C" grades in that section of the spreadsheet.) Does Elsevier actually maintain strong corporate oversight over the ethics of each and every journal? Or is this another diseconomy of scale? - walt crawford
(The questions above are honest questions: I don't know the answers...) - walt crawford
Well, part of it is platform prestige. If somebody is going to pitch a new journal to Elsevier, then it's going to have to have a quality editorial board and good business plan before Elsevier will pick it up. - DJF from Android
They seem to quit looking after that, though -- how the heck did Chaos Solitons and Fractals survive as long as it did otherwise? - RepoRat
walt crawford
Just got email from Lars Bjørnshauge, managing director of DOAJ, with some (very) kind words for my series of OA-related articles, especially the big look at the real numbers behind Beall's list. This has made my weekend.
Martha and Sarah today at the party celebrating their wedding.
That's a good picture! thanks, Iris! - maʀtha
You two are very cute. :) - Laura
Iris, would you be willing to share this pic with me? - maʀtha
that is a very happy picture, made my day. :) - Benedicta
As Aunt Ann says, "That is cute a while" - MoTO Boychick Devil
you look so happy!! congratulations!! - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
A big ol' grin spreads across my face every time this scrolls by. - MoTO Boychick Devil
happy day! - barbara fister
LSW: Joe
Picture this. Ice cream truck. Library book truck. Combined. Good idea or bad idea?
book-flavored ice cream? thanks, but no. - RepoRat
Not exactly. Sell ice cream, and circulate books for free for card holders. - Joe
YES. I will suggest this to the Antelope Lending Library. - laura x from iPhone
Like coffee, but better! - ~Courtney F
I would run out to the street with a fist full of quarters and my library card if I heard the music! - Marie
Brilliant. - Kirsten from Android
are you hiring? - maʀtha
Still need to get the truck first. Working on funding. - Joe
It might have difficulty getting past the board. - Julian
I promise free ice cream to board members. - Joe
laura x
Someone just gave us some National Geographics that are actually old enough to be interesting.
Also, near mint-condition copies of the Atlantic Monthly and Harpers from the 1960s. The National Geographics are from the teens. - laura x
How old is old enough to be interesting? - Katy S from iPhone
1919 is earlier than any I've seen in a long time. - laura x
Neat! - Brian Johns
wow. JEALOUS! - MoTO Boychick Devil
That does sound interesting. - Katy S from iPhone
I just got rid of a bunch of National Geographics from the subscription I had in the 80's, but I kept the #4 and #6 I bought at a library book sale. - bentley
Hey folks! We're hosting some visiting librarians from Myanmar, and I was just talking to them about open access resources. They sensibly asked me for OERs on library & information technology - they don't get many opportunities for education or training. Anyone know of any they'd recommend? I'd love to compile a best of list for them to take back.
Bump into the new week - Aaron the Librarian from Android
I guess I don't know how to answer this? To me (admitting that I am steeped in tech; I have to be) it feels like "Could you give me any OERs about books?" - RepoRat
I can't say with certainty, but they might be able to get some support at the American Centers in Rangoon ( or Mandalay ( Most of their programming seems to be geared toward teachers & English learning, but the librarians on staff may have local insight. (Disclosure: I work for the office that supports the Centers, but I'm not involved in their day to day operations.) - Zamms
I have a few ILS resources listed in my OA web exhibit: Important note: These are open access, with various licenses and restrictions, not necessarily OER or "open". - Rebecca Hedreen
Good questions - I guess I wasn't very clear. It seems to me that they would be interested in open textbooks or other resources that would be geared towards LIS students or paraprofessionals, such as the organization of information, acquisitions, collection development, etc. Due to the limitations of their infrastructure (internet is very spotty and not always present, they only have an intranet catalog, etc), stuff on digital librarianship is not as practical. - Grumpator
I wasn't able to find much in my search. And aside from the more limited scope of this particular request, I was hoping to find more OERs targeting our own profession than I did, given our increasing emphasis on open education along with open access. I do freely admit that I am not a reference librarian and am not really very good at the art of searching, so I may be missing stuff. - Grumpator
There are a few more general books in the ebrary free collection (that the digital libraries book is part of), like Libraries & Librarianship in India, Patel & Kumar, Greenwood Press; So You Want To Be a Librarian, Pressley, Library Juice Press; International library education, Ashcroft, Emerald; etc. - Rebecca Hedreen
Thanks, Rebecca! - Grumpator
Rachel Walden
Have any of you all written anything about changes to PLOS's institutional membership charges?
nope. hadn't heard, actually. link me up? - RepoRat
Oh, that's awfully disappointing. :-( - Deborah Fitchett
Oh..this is not good news. Sending notes to people now. - Hedgehog
well, shit. - jambina
I'm going to guess "not enough uptake from libraries to bother." Sigh. - RepoRat
How many no-fee Gold OA journals could Vanderbilt publish for $122K/year? Never mind; PLOS is a Verified Good Guy, so I shouldn't ask questions like that. - walt crawford
They're a Verified Good Guy who I'm pretty sure nevertheless could survive quite happily if they lowered their fees. - Deborah Fitchett
Deborah: The last chapter of my Library Tech. Reports on Big Deal Damages (out any day now) has as one possible "solution," after "Transparent Prices," "Transparent Costs." I'd love to see such transparency happen during my lifetime...but that only allows about 30 years. - walt crawford
Another way of saying: "quite happily" may depend on personnel pay levels and perks, but otherwise I'm inclined to believe you're right. - walt crawford
ooh, Transparent Costs! sounds lovely! - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
As I say in the report (not remotely in these words!), it's mostly a dream...whereas with FOI, transparent prices should be reasonably achievable. (On the other hand, some OA startups devoted to fair pricing--and maybe with university backing--*could* establish some actual costs...) - walt crawford
So the point is that there was never actually a discount. Libraries paid a 'membership fee' which covered the discount to institutional authors. This was just getting silly because there was a huge administrative overhead on both institution and PLOS on managing a zero sum system. So now if an institution wants either direct billing or to pay into a fund both those things are available.... more... - Cameron Neylon
..speaking as the person who took the decision to sunset the old program. More than happy to talk to anyone about this but we did it to simplify things and reduce overall costs in the system. - Cameron Neylon
I was gonna say that I'm pretty sure jh has been moving toward dropping all memberships and putting the money into a fund you have to apply for but that will pay full - Christina Pikas from iPhone
With author-fee funds dying like flies... yeah, I admit I'm concerned. But I do see the reasoning. - RepoRat
Christina, who's in charge of administering the fund and evaluating the applications? Researchers/faculty? Or librarians/administrators? Also, where does the money sit? Library budget? University/departmental budget? - Meg VMeg
Part of the issues was exactly that it didn't seem we were helping with author fee funds. The way it worked was we'd estimate volume, assess a membership fee of 10% of the expected costs, then find the volume was a bit higher than expected then have to assess a bigger fee the following year, on top of the volume increase so there was sticker shock - and the amounts were rising to levels... more... - Cameron Neylon
What has happened is that we have fewer US institutions using the new tools but a lot more UK and European ones. Certainly we're seeing a lot more UK/EU institutions establishing funds, less clear on how many US ones are dropping them. - Cameron Neylon
Yeah, that figures. I don't have hard numbers on the US either -- it may be a wash, because other funds are being established even as older ones die. - RepoRat
@Meg - it's out of the libraries budget, administered by the library, and there are some requirements - drat, they deleted the online guide since they ran out of money this year and the new year money doesn't start until July 1. Basically 1 publication per author, author has to state that they can't pay the fees out of a grant or other source, a copy has to be archived in the IR... I can't remember what else. - Christina Pikas
Whatever PLoS's reasoning is is fine for them, we're just not going to take on the costs or local administration of a fund of that type. (Note that this was not my decision to make on our end, so I will not be engaging in conversation about whether we should or not) - Rachel Walden
*nodnod* At MfPOW it was a lot easier to sell a membership than a fund. It fits into existing green-eyeshade categories and it's a lot less hassle internally. That's not to say it was a piece of cake -- I had to do the homework on how many authors and articles we were talking about -- but I'm pretty sure MfPOW still has some OA memberships, while the author-fee fund is deader than Generalissimo Francisco Franco. - RepoRat
... maybe all this is my next LJ column. I need an idea for it anyway. - RepoRat
There's definitely a wider discussion to have about where it is best to administer different kinds of system. I can buy that it's easier to subsidise by putting a smaller amount of money into a third party place. The catch is two fold - there's an administrative burden which to my mind is very inefficient on our side (the intricate variety of what different institutions want is... more... - Cameron Neylon
All that said, if there's real demand for a deposit account that gets use to provide institution marginal discounts then we could look at that again. But at the moment we've got much more demand for systems where the eligibility varies author to author based on their funding sources within an institution. - Cameron Neylon
You'd enjoy my summer lectures, Cameron. I spend a LOT of time hammering on the chooser-isn't-payer market dysfunction. :) - RepoRat
the thing with memberships, imo, was that a chunk of money would go to 10% or 20% discounts... when it was like not that for, say, $1000 they couldn't pay the apc but for $800 or $900 they could. It was like they either could or couldn't. library may want to endorse oa, but instead, they're endorsing one publisher and their offerings. and really, biomed vs all other fields of endeavor.... more... - Christina Pikas
@Meg here's how ours is handled if that's useful - Hedgehog
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