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Jeremy Toeman
Jeremy Toeman
i have to say, friendfeed is actually *losing* value to me, not gaining it. if i don't put in crazy energy here, pretty much nobody likes/comments my stuff, which pretty much makes using the site a waste of time. on a "ROI of my energy" perspective, my blog, Twitter, and even IM is seems like a better use of my time...
May 23 - Comment - Share
Trying to help... :) - Sid Burgess
Jeremy, I'm confused... are you using friendfeed for the community and experience or are you using it to dive traffic to your stuff? - Bastard Operator From FF
@Sean - all of it. my comment is that, if i dont put in a LOT of energy, i dont feel i gain in the community/experience... - Jeremy Toeman
Jeremy, why do you think that is? I haven't spent a lot of energy in FF and now I'm wondering if it's worth it - Andre P. Siregar
Jeremy: I went and looked at your page and there just isn't much that is interesting lately from you. Why the entitlement attitude to our attention? - Robert Scoble
I often forget that while I'm following a bunch of folks, not that many are following me. So when I don't get comments or attention, I just do a mental shrug and carry on. The value in FF to me is what I learn from others. While I wish more people would interact with me on topics I introduce, that's what my blogs are for, not what I use FF for. - Jack
@Robert who are you to tell me what is "interesting"? oh, and you've "liked" two of my things recently. - Jeremy Toeman
Plus, your items are rarely conversational. Rarely have your personality (that I miss, by the way), rarely have images, rarely are posted from here, and show little engagement with the community. - Robert Scoble
Jeremy, don't let anyone suggest you're not getting attention because of the quality of your contribution. The design was broken when they made the upgrade and the user experience for all but the most committed users has suffered. You are not alone. - Sprague D
Jeremy, just giving you feedback about what gets engagement. Your stuff lately isn't engaging. - Robert Scoble
I love friend feed - I see everything popping up from all my social media and I can be on top of it instantly - there's nothing that I know of that works as well as this to aggregate everything real time. - James Stewart
Jeremy, I haven't even looked at your stuff lately (sorry), but more because I've been busy than anything else. However, you seem to be insisting upon love from strangers. Have you invited real-life friends here? Some of the most active commenters and like'ers on my stuff are those friends of mine that I know in real life, who care about me, who care about what I think, what I'm doing, etc. And then things snowball; since they tend to comment, others are more apt to join in. It's like a party tactic: first invite people you KNOW will RSVP, then others are less shy about being the first one to RSVP/show up ;-). - Adam Lasnik
Jeremy: put this feed on your screen and compare it to yours: http://friendfeed.com/search... You'll see that there's a HUGE difference between the items you are putting in here and yours. - Robert Scoble
Sprague: what you are noticing is that in the past two weeks many thousands of new people have come in here, and have brought their feeds as well. So the bar to getting attention has gone WAY UP. It's a lot harder to get attention. The feeds are all going faster. What I'm doing now is building new searches to find good content around topics. Also, I'm building private rooms where I'm inviting my friends into have a conversation about something specific. Those are things I can't do anywhere else. - Robert Scoble
Jeremy, the quality of your offerings is fine -- when users complain about user experience it is often because of systemic design changes. Your note implies that FF was once more engaging for you (as it was for me) that changed with the new "real time" design that requires much greater commitment (posting, managing lists, etc.) in order to keep your stuff in front of people. It's not you, it's FriendFeed. - Sprague D
Once again you make sense of it all, Robert. - Chris Heath
I second that I can't believe I didnt get on this earlier - enjoying the banter :) - James Stewart
Sprague: there are WAVES of new users coming here lately due to the easy integration from Twitter that was added a couple of weeks ago. I actually am seeing more engagement on my items. The searches here are letting me get a LOT more value out of friendfeed than before, too. - Robert Scoble
Robert, you're the definition of an outlier and actually proof of what I'm saying. Neither Jeremy nor I use the service the way you do and have seen our experience of it decline since the design change. As far as usage, I would love to see the reach numbers for FriendFeed going forward. I'm betting that a lot of those new people will churn because of the high barrier to engagement caused by the design. - Sprague D
Sprague: Jeremy used to participate here a lot more and used to blog a lot more and used to post things that I cared about. Lately? I am finding him less and less interesting. I expected that, actually, he has a new baby. Watch how my usage here goes way down in September when Scobleizer 3.0 arrives. - Robert Scoble
If you use Friend Feed for keeping you own personal network up dated and following its great I never really log into my twitter anymore I can hanlde everything from Friend Feed and My Cell Phone even from all the way over here in Australia... Its handy... - Chris Henderson
You and Jeremy almost have a point, Sprague, but Twitter? Give me a break. It's noiser and noiser and all of my friends are saying they are getting less and less engagement there. - Robert Scoble
How do you get people away from Facebook & on here though? - Jason Hansen
Wow I see the FF fans are out in full force again. @Jeremy you are right to a point - Friendfeed is a lot more work since they flipped the switch on their opinion of what the real-time web is (which I wrote about here - http://bit.ly/3aDGf4 - and got equally smacked down as you are) but someone had a suggestion that I still have to play with - that being instead of concentrating on the people, setup searches based on topic, idea or the such. this might prove to be a more valuable way for you to get some value from Friendfeed. - Steven Hodson
Jeremy, you make a great point. I like FF but much of my network is on Twitter & using FF as an aggregator, it makes it hard to have conversations here when they all originate from Twitter. However, I do believe we're on the brink of change. - Karen Swim
@Robert we almost have a point -- well that's almost a compliment! ;-) I expect that the FF boys (who are clearly brilliant programmers) will finesse the ui over time. UIs are tough. I agree Twitter is a rough place but... it's *simple*. That counts. They need to find the balance between features and ease of use. - Sprague D
Sprague: I get more engagement on Facebook than I do on Twitter (and that's with a FAR smaller audience because Facebook limits me to 5,000 friends) and Facebook is MUCH more complicated than Twitter. I'm really getting tired of the hype of Twitter being better because it's simpler. Facebook is still growing a Twitter every six weeks. 225 million vs. 30 million for the "simpler" service. - Robert Scoble
Robert no disrespect because you know I value what you do, but we really need to hear from people who may not have as high a profile in order to get a better sense of how everyday users are experiencing the changes to FF. Do you know how Paul and Bret are assessing that (unique users, returning users, time on site, etc.)? For example, I still rely on FF as an aggregator, but spend much less time on site. - Sprague D
Sprague: yes, they are using focus groups (which is why they made several of the changes here) and they are watching time on site and amount of likes per person and comments per person and also are active here in many places. But they haven't shared much more about that. The thing that drags people back here is conversations on specific topics. Some of those can get hundreds or thousands of comments. - Robert Scoble
Sprague: There are alot of users who don't have as high profile as Robert and still find the service much more better then Twitter which is just a broadcasting service - which is getting filled with a lot of marketers/spammers which unlike Twitter are removed from here quickly. I spend more time over here then over on Twitter because I can engage with people easier via a better DM system, comments etc - I can even go into specific "groups" and discuss a particular topic i.e. Formula 1 with several FriendFeeders and I can't do that over on Twitter because even if I used a hashtag it would be impossible to engage over there in the way which is occuring over here. - Nicholas James
Sprague, for example, Here's a list of all items that have more than 100 comments here: http://friendfeed.com/search... that list is getting more items faster now than it was three months ago. - Robert Scoble
Sprague: here's a list of all items that have gotten 100 likes or more, too: http://friendfeed.com/search... This list too is growing a lot faster today than it was three months ago. That demonstrates that a lot more people are using the service, but that it's harder to get attention. - Robert Scoble
Just looking at the features I would easily say Friendfeed is the better place to spend my time but I find myself over at twitter more than any other place. - Hunter
I agree with Scoble on the entitlement issue.. nothing too interesting on the page. I think friendfeeds search and real-time capabilities surpass any other social media site. Twitter has far too much noise. - Johnny
Oh Robert, Robert, Robert yet again you are holding up how you use these social media tools and your opinions of them as being gospel. With the utmost respect - Piss Off. You are unique when it comes to social media service use. I admire all to hell your ability to process what you do during the day *but* not everyone using social media is using it for the same reasons your do or in the same fashion that you do. By holding up your practices as the golden bow you are making the bar to high for the rest of us that don't have the time, the energy or the reason to be "A Scoble User". Maybe instead of pointing out how people are doing it wrong (in your opinion) you try and figure out how *they* are using it to be of use to *them* not you. - Steven Hodson
Hunter: that's fair. I have been on Twitter 910+ days and I spend a lot of time over there too. One thing I've noticed is that my behavior IS early adopter and IS often two years ahead of the market. I remember having these arguments with my blog's readers. They wanted to stay on the blog comments, not come over to Twitter. Now most of them have joined Twitter and are resisting coming to the new thing. I'm seeing more and more move over though. - Robert Scoble
Hodson: what ARE you talking about? This whole feed started with a guy who was upset with a service because he is not getting the attention he wants... Are you high? - Johnny
@Johnny you might as well be stepping into the middle of a conversation. This is something that Robert and I have been going around on for a few days now. And no I'm not high (biting tongue against snappy retort) - Steven Hodson
@Johnny oh and by the way how was Joe's originating comment anything about not getting attention ... it was in fact just a statement about finding less value in FF because of time being required to get any value out of it. - Steven Hodson
Johnny: Hodson is one of those people who would rather denigrate someone who is ahead of him in understanding the usage of these tools. I have had the exact same reactions from people who used to tell me that the world didn't need Mouse and Windows. True story. Then later when IM came out people told me no one would EVER have hundreds of people on their IM lists, or use it for business. Today most of my friends have that many. - Robert Scoble
Nicholas, agree totally that FF has it all over Twitter in features. Robert, perhaps much of the issue is just caused by increased traffic but I'm not sure. I need to cut out. This has been good. - Sprague D
Johnny: I remember when I had 1,000 friends on Twitter and my friends were giving me shit for having so many and saying that I couldn't understand the real world. Same argument as Hodson is giving me. Hodson is wrong. He'll always be wrong. He can't stand it because people DO follow us into the deep end of the pool, eventually, because, well, it's more fun there. - Robert Scoble
thanks Robert. I wasn't denigrating you. But if you want to think so then fine. - Steven Hodson
How to interest Robert Scoble: talk about him, or his ideas, or skewer a sacred cow of his. Then it will turn up in his vanity search. (Oh, let me get "Scobleizer" in there so it'll pique his interest. - TxVoodoo
Steven: you are saying I'm unique. Actually, history has proven I am not. I'm just early. That's all. Not unique. A year from now I wish people would go back and understand this, but they never do. I've been through this before. Which is why when you tell me to piss off you are wrong and a jerk. - Robert Scoble
TxVoodoo: go to http://www.friendfeed.com/scoblei... -- how many items there follow your advice? Not many. You are wrong and a jerk. Thanks for adding to the conversation. - Robert Scoble
Robert I meant that with all the best humor intended I'm sorry you didn't see it as such - Steven Hodson
Robert: Glad to know we are on the same page. I have had the same problems trying to explain the usage of certain technology/tools. And you're right about people following us... Its almost frustrating to think about how many people told me time and time again how Twitter will fail and how its not for them.. where are we a few years later? They're all using it. Same with ff. :) - Johnny
Steven: I've heard that argument before. Many times. The person saying it has ALWAYS been proven wrong. Which is why I'm telling you you're wrong. Humor is fine. Where's the smilie? :-) - Robert Scoble
Johnny: exactly. I could wallpaper my bathroom with all the comments that I got in the early days of Twitter that said "Twitter is lame." All from guys like Hodson. - Robert Scoble
Oops, hit enter too quickly. Seriously, though, ones objectives shouldn't be to engage only 1 reader, even one as vaunted as Scoble. It should be to first express something you feel strongly about, and hopefully engage others who are interested in what you think. But I wouldn't consider Robert's critique as near to valid, because it's a classic example of "YMMV". Different strokes, etc, tropes ad infinitim. Oh, & Robert? I see you popped up to respond (thank you for validating my words!). Ad hominems win no friends. - TxVoodoo
shit things are heating up in here! dam you can type fast Scoble!! :-) SMILE haha - James Stewart
James: the best class I took in college was typing. :-) - Robert Scoble
Jeremy, you aren't alone in wishing that people would contribute to the conversations you try to start. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
TxVoodoo: ad hominems? Hahahahahahah. Boy, you are funny. You're the one who made a false statement. - Robert Scoble
@Robert - excuse me? But if you check you will find I have been using Twitter for almost as long as you have so don't hang the lame label on me (for that). Just as I've been using Friendfeed for as long if not longer than you. - Steven Hodson
MiniMage: life doesn't guarantee you a listener. - Robert Scoble
Is there really a right or wrong answer here though? - Jason Hansen
Same. That's why I couldn't help but call the guy out. Lame. - Johnny
@Robert re: missing smiley - oppss it slid by me :) :) :) :) :) :) :) - Steven Hodson
I reckon dude - I've been cruzing though my emails and facebook and friendfeed all arvo and watching this convo roll out has been really interesting. loved that vid of you talking about building43 and friendfeed on your fan page - just can't believe I havn't been tracking you earlier - thanks for the insights all the way to NZ :) - James Stewart
Well, um, Jeremy, looks like you got your wish. Lots of replies here! :D - Adam Lasnik
Robert-how about this one? http://friendfeed.com/scobles... - Not all of us feel the need to Big Brother the world about our mentions. And I'm not a jerk because I disagree with you. I've felt this for a while, feels good to speek my mind. Been around as long as you, just haven't felt world revolved around me. - TxVoodoo
Steven: well, I am telling you that there's some lessons you guys aren't getting and you're trying to denigrate those lessons by saying I'm "unique." Sorry, the teacher is ALWAYS unique. I guarantee you that you'll be using the techniques I'm learning in friendfeed a few months from now and you'll be saying that I am right. - Robert Scoble
TxVoodoo: what about my vanity feed? You trying to tell me you don't look to see what people are saying about you? Liar. - Robert Scoble
@Robert if that is the case at least I'll be man enough to admit in print .. which I have done before when I have been proven wrong - Steven Hodson
Adam: Shame they're not referring to the original topic though ;) - Nicholas James
Oh, Robert - an opinion can't be a false statement. Don't strawman me! And how can you know if I'm lying or not? Don't project. That's libel, sir. - TxVoodoo
Adam: this is the first engaging thing Jeremy has done since his baby was born. I miss his engaging self. - Robert Scoble
TxVoodoo: oh give me a break. That got you one big step closer to a block since you're here just to be a troll, not for a conversation. - Robert Scoble
one thing that does seem kind of limiting is the misinterpretation of text still on here - but it's not like you can do video. Another thing is that the amount of attention this has brought to Jeremy is huge - I wouldn't have come across him except that I saw Scoble talk at the start of this thread and wanted to see what he was on about - haha calling people a jerk is the best insult. - James Stewart
Seriously, this is about social media, which presumes social etiquette, and ad hominems are just cheap. - TxVoodoo
TxVoodoo block warning #2. Don't tell me what's social etiquette. You follow your own rules, I'll follow mine. - Robert Scoble
Jeremy, your original point is quite valid. To me, FF is the Usenet of the 00s - most use it to flamewar and self-promote. I rarely get value on it. I see an awful lot of bloviating & frankly, circles of backrubbing. - TxVoodoo
Scoble, lemme get this thru your head: 1) this isn't YOUR ff. 2) I don't CARE. You have little to no impact on my existence. 3) If it makes you feel important, do it. I don't begrudge others their entertainment. - TxVoodoo
RScoble: If I listen to others, it'd be nice for them to listen back. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
See this is the Key. People who are thinking about ROI aren't in love with what they are doing. No offense. I and about 99% of the population fall into, sadly the same category. The people like Scobleizer, who are loving what they do, are on the edge of excitement all the time. Everyone should find out what it is that makes them tick, and follow that for a career. Not preaching. More writing this for myself. You know how they say, we write in order to learn. - Stephen Pickering
Stephen, yes. I find much of what goes on here to be naval gazing and beating of dead horses. Good lord, stop *talking* about social media, go and BE social with it. - TxVoodoo
Jeremy: you should have had a disclaimer. Your job is to build very close relationships with influencers. People like Ryan Block who used to run Engadget etc. And me, because I have a large audience. You want to have a place where you can study JUST THOSE PEOPLE. You don't care about people like TxVoodoo who has only a few readers and who doesn't even disclose his real name. So, to you, those people add noise and friction to studying the influencers you need to get your products in front of. - Robert Scoble
Robert, HER real name. And it's out there, if you look. And I don't measure my value or validate my existance by number of readers. - TxVoodoo
For heaven's sake, my icon is of my face. - TxVoodoo
Jeremy: you'd rather have a dinner with Gary Shapiro, who runs CES, than talk with "normal people" like TxVoodoo. So, when you see a comment stream like this one it takes too much work. See, you can interact with people like Gary over IM, or on Twitter, where he only has a few followers, and you can lock everyone else out, but here people like TxVoodoo leak into the conversation which makes the ROI far less. I get that. But you should have disclosed that up front. It's the same reason that Tim O'Reilly doesn't like friendfeed. - Robert Scoble
TxVoodoo Yes, I heartily agree, but for some people, like Scobleizer, Gillmor, Leo, that is their passion and job, and it has great value to the rest of us to report on weigh in on that sector of technology. But I hear what you are saying, and I think Scoble is interested in the same thing, how to apply this very technology to every kind of career and make it more fun and productive - Stephen Pickering
OH MY Robert, you're really making yourself look dreadful. The "normal people" don't count? Who buys your services? Who hires you? Who reads your works? Way to alienate! It might not occur to you that some of us use these services for other things that aren't less valuable. - TxVoodoo
TxVoodoo: I know Jeremy. Do you? He does marketing and influencer management and PR and that kind of thing to launch new companies. - Robert Scoble
Stephen yes - but as I say above, it doesn't pay to alienate ppl w/ less followers/readers/etc. One never knows where a jewel will come from, or a job. Y'all don't know who I am, or who I represent, or what my buying power is, right? - TxVoodoo
TxVoodoo: You're only helping Robert prove his point by spamming this conversation. - Johnny
Robert, do you know me? Do you know what I might do? Do you know what I might buy? Why auto kneejerk to slit your own (professional) throat, possibly inadvertantly? Social media should have value-but not only in having all the S.M. folks engage one another. - TxVoodoo
TxVoodoo: sorry, but people like Jeremy can't engage with everyone. He is one of the world's best at figuring out who is important. Watch him work a show on behalf of a vendor. I watched him at CES. He is very adept at figuring out who the buyers are, who the press is, who has an audience, who is just there to waste his time, etc. - Robert Scoble
TxVoodoo Don't beat up on Scobleizer, he's on yours and my side, he's saying we the people who are on the outside of the tech industry, that our voice is important too - Stephen Pickering
TxVoodoo: you aren't a good listener. - Robert Scoble
I agree with Robert 100% on noise to value ratio with Twitter and now with FF. With your help we are experiencing it right now. - Johnny
People like Jeremy can't or won't engage with everyone? - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
TxVoodoo: I was talking about Jeremy, not you. To Jeremy you are just another shlub. - Robert Scoble
Just another shlub, reporting for duty. - Ken Sheppardson
MiniMage: Jeremy said exactly that above. That he isn't willing to put in the hard work participating because he gets more ROI somewhere else. I've seen how Jeremy works. He works dinners. Private emails. Phone calls. And gets to know INFLUENCERS intimately. He has won CES's best of show several times on behalf of his clients. Hint: he doesn't see a way to get that done here. He should have disclosed that. - Robert Scoble
*sigh* See, Robert. You are missing soooo many points here. These discussions could have value - like the one I'm having w/ Stephen. Stephen's reading my words and their import, not just kneejerking. But influencing happens on MANY levels, in many fora. - TxVoodoo
TxVoodoo: But isn't Robert saying Jeremy doesn't want to bother with the influencing on your level, when he can benefit greater from his normal levels? - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Johnny: this is what happens with EVERY onlne community. The noise level goes up as newbies come in. I've seen it happen over and over and over and over. What's fun is that in friendfeed we can start secret societies. I'm shocked that Jeremy hasn't discovered that yet. Because that WOULD let him get high value out of friendfeed, similar to his IM client or his Tweets. - Robert Scoble
MiniMage: that's exactly what I was saying. - Robert Scoble
But TxVoodoo while Scobleizer is one of the "important" people as Kawasaki calls them, he is the only one who engages us like this right now. He really does care about the interconnection of "regular" businesses and organizations with this new Social Media World. - Stephen Pickering
To me, FF isn't organic. Discovery isn't organic on it, it's not a great way to find new info and share it. I don't want nor care to influence Robert. On the other hand, I will say I'm more interested in reading Stephen, now. Maybe not his FF, but other bits. - TxVoodoo
Everyone is talking to fast, you don't realize you are having 2 conversations that aren't related anymore (I don't think anyone is really listening at the moment), at least in IMHO. One is about "high-level" users and the value of FF and the other is about the "normal" users. They are different and can't easily be broken down into one answer (with apologies to those who think they can). If they could, *this* discussion -- which has happened on every network I've been on since QuantumLink -- would not happen. - Brad_King
TxVoodoo: I wrote a book called Naked Conversations that SAID EXACTLY THAT. It's clear you haven't done your homework about me, just like I haven't done mine about you. - Robert Scoble
Robert, what do you mean by "secret societies"? - LPH™ and his dog P™
@Brad_King .. thank you for making the distinction - Steven Hodson
LPH: here in friendfeed you can build rooms that no one can see into except if you are invited. A secret society. - Robert Scoble
Brad, true enough. I like working and thinking outside the box - and that often requires bringint in 'normal' folks, integrating their input. I think a lot of recent tech could be made more valuable by integrating their input at the beginning-too much is now grown from minds of 'important' folks while forgetting what normal ppl need to WORK. - TxVoodoo
Robert: Hopefully you'll send me a message and let me in on some of these secret societies so I can focus more on discussion and less on TxVoodoo! - Johnny
@Stephen that is the thing I have *always* liked about Robert and even though he thinks I'm a smuck I still hold him and what he does in high regard. We need more like him. - Steven Hodson
btw, as a disinterested third party reading - there are lots of good points here. I hope that people go back and re-read post flame war (used in the 70s sense of the word = good, not the bad sense). (disclosure: Scoble helped me figure FF out :) - Brad_King
Johnny: well, there's more than one way to get rid of TxVoodoo. I almost blocked her, but kept her here to see just what she'd say. What can I say, it's a slow news night and I needed some entertainment. :-) My son has control of the TV. Sigh. - Robert Scoble
Johnny: there's always the block feature ;) - Nicholas James
Rober, Yah, I didn't read your book. Strange that I say what you wrote, but you don't use it? (ok, low blow). I just very much dislike this caste system you seem to perpetrate. I've been important in my field from time to time, and I feel it makes me too insular. - TxVoodoo
TxVoodoo: I'm not talking about you Damn It. You are soooo narcissistic. - Robert Scoble
Please forward me invites to the high-value secret society rooms. kthxbye - Ken Sheppardson
TxVoodoo: I'm talking about Jeremy. THAT IS HIS ATTITUDE!!!! - Robert Scoble
Brad_King - totally agree, it's been interesting to watch this develop over the past couple of hours and something I think I'll use an example for how cool FF is. Love IT - James Stewart
Robert, thank you for the best laugh of the evening - TxVoodoo
Stephen has the right of it. How many of the big players would look at a nobody's blog, follow her on Twitter or respond in email? http://scobleizer.com/2006... - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
TxVoodoo: you think everything is about you, don't you? Heheh. - Robert Scoble
May I quote Carly Simon to you? - TxVoodoo
TxVoodoo: that song is in my head thanks to you. :-) - Robert Scoble
You two need to learn to use emoticons, me thinks. There ya go, Robert. - Ken Sheppardson
It's definitely hard to hate on Robert because he'll actually respond :) - Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Ha, I've always thought of the block feature as the easy way out. I'm going to call it a night. Robert: send me a FF or Twitter DM in the near future and we can discuss more tech, less Voodoo. - Johnny
I've a bit of snark in me, no question. HOWEVER. To the subject - this is a great chance to engage w/ as fandoms call them, the Big Names, so to speak - and maybe puncture their insular bubbles? - TxVoodoo
Johnny: a private room is even better than a block. That way the person you are trying to remove from the discussion doesn't know it happened. - Robert Scoble
TxVoodoo: let me know how it goes trying to get @oprah to engage. - Robert Scoble
FWIW, I don't think FF is best or only way to do it. I believe we should use the tools that work for us, not fit our work to the tools. - TxVoodoo
or Leo Laporte? - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
TxVoodoo: I dare you to try to have this kind of conversation on your blog or over on Twitter. - Robert Scoble
Robert - false comparison - she isn't active on Twitter, she's not a 'real' user. And Robert? I've had convos like this many times on my blog & on twitter. - TxVoodoo
Mini: Leo actually is pretty engaged. - Robert Scoble
He's never said a thing to me - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Again-it's NOT the tool-it's what you do w/ it. - TxVoodoo
TxVoodoo: now I know why you don't have many followers on Twitter. (Low blow, but true) - Robert Scoble
TxVoodoo: Show me where you have had a similiar conversation on Twitter - Nicholas James
TxVoodoo: if you had a conversation like this over on Twitter (I have) you would have had hundreds of people complaining. - Robert Scoble
And what you do w/ it is influenced by how natural it feels to you. Example: i don't like the "hit enter it posts" thing here. - TxVoodoo
I see what u mean - orionstarr
Nicholas: she would, but Twitter search isn't working right now. - Robert Scoble
TxVoodoo: Why don't you let FF know your opinions in the Feedback room then ;) - Nicholas James
Robert-you're engaging the wrong ppl on twitter-I do political talk there, often, and it works. I haven't had anyone complain, perhaps because I've followed/am followed by like-minded people - TxVoodoo
I don't think it ever fails. If someone posts that no one is paying attention to what she/he is saying, a conversation explodes. Maybe I should try it ;) - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
TxVoodoo: You mean close-minded people. - Jason Hansen
Nicolas because I haven't really ever cared enough? - TxVoodoo
But TxVoodoo what I gather about Robert from following him is that he is the opposite of the caste system. He's just the opposite of all those characteristics you hate (and for good reason many times) that's one reason he's very popular - Stephen Pickering
btw, screw you guys.... because of this conversations I didn't edit my book chapter for the last hour (your fault and your fault and your fault...you get the idea) ;) <-- joke emoticon - Brad_King
@MiniMage - only if robert gets involved so make sure to be negative :) LOL - Steven Hodson
Let me ask fathers, though, if Hooters' wings stop tasting so good when they have daughters, and no one's in the woods to hear my tree fall. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Stephen: I don't *hate*, I bemoan. I am sorry that he choses to keep his circle like that. - TxVoodoo
Also, I think I *will* go to feedback-darned page keeps scrolling the typing box out of view. That's not organic, dammit! - TxVoodoo
Brad_King what kind of Book are you writing? - Stephen Pickering
Am off for evening, adios. - TxVoodoo
TxVoodoo: you should have clicked on the time stamp. - Robert Scoble
TxVoodoo: that would have opened up a window with the comment box on the bottom. - Robert Scoble
Robert++, that's what I did - Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
@Stephen: The kind that isn't being edited right now :) I have 2 books with Carnegie Mellon (virtual worlds and social media+storytelling) and editing a book of essays for them on digital creation. NONE of them have been touched. Bastards. - Brad_King
Robert: Thanks for that tip... haha. I always click on Share, etc... - Jason Hansen
I right-clicked and opened in a new window, because I'm cool like that. No, I'm not serious. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Rahsheen: see, that's where Hodson goes wrong. Sometimes it takes an advanced user of a service to figure out all the productivity tips and teach them to other people. - Robert Scoble
Robert, stupid question, what is clicking on the time stamp? I keep having to go to the top of the page too - Stephen Pickering
That's where I've been watching the action! - Christopher Harley
Stephen: underneath the title at the top of this node is a time stamp. When this item was originally posted. Click on it. - Robert Scoble
Stephen: now, if you click on it again you'll get a second type of window to open. - Robert Scoble
@Robert .. huh .. what have I got to do with productivity tips? - Steven Hodson
Christopher: I knew there was a reason I was watching you. - Robert Scoble
I'm sort of curious when I see people use the acronym ROI when it comes to "Social Media" tool, how exactly they define "return". For me return is learning stuff, not building traffic and followers. I can see how FriendFeed might be a poor platform on which to build an audience, because yes... you have to actually participate rather than just throw breadcrumbs over the wall now and then. - Ken Sheppardson
So Jeremy Stormbringer starts this and wanders off? - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Steven: because you don't like it when I tell people how to use friendfeed to get the most out of it. - Robert Scoble
Ahhhhhhhhhhh, I learned something! Thanks Robert! - Stephen Pickering
@Robert, btw, I sent you a DM here earlier about th Carnegie book. I know you have a billion of them, but I'd like to talk with you if you have the time. No rush. - Brad_King
Me too, thanks ! - Barbara
It's because I've been here for a year and even tried to leave for a month and only made it 26 days! - Christopher Harley
Brad: cool, I'll try to get to my DM's. Got a bunch of them. - Robert Scoble
26 days? That's IMPRESSIVE! uh, but why the heck did you do it? - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
@Robert: yeah, I know. It's for the Entertainment Technology Center (ETC) Press. Do you know Drew Davidson? - Brad_King
It's a tough habit to try and break. - Christopher Harley
@Robert .. you and I really need to talk :) tip away my man .. make it as useful as hell .. the more people who use the better ... just because I raise questions about how it is used and why doesn't make me someone who doesn't like the serive. If that was that case I wouldn't keep coming back day fter day - Steven Hodson
MiniMage: These threads often turn into that sort of party where the host wants to go to bed but a bunch of the guests just want to hang out and watch the big screen TV all night. - Ken Sheppardson
Brad_King wow, you are right in the middle of it. And I thought Scoble and Brogan were the Social Media Kings! - Stephen Pickering
Chris: You kept away from FriendFeed for 26 days. Wow. - Nicholas James
Ken: when Jeremy says "ROI" that means that his job is to influence influential people like journalists and bloggers with big audiences. He's finding that more and more those people are disappearing into a sea of other people. It pisses him off. - Robert Scoble
@Stephen: the dude abides. Scoble knows a lot more about much of this than I ever will. - Brad_King
Steven: anytime! Part of it is I assume you're like Arrington and just like to argue to get an audience going. That's cool. It's fun for me too. - Robert Scoble
Good point...but should Jeremy be going to bed just yet? It's only midnight on the East Coast, and don't the movers and the shakers work 3 hours later? - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
I still haven't seen that movie, Brad. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
I did. Twitter, GReader, Facebook, and my own blogs got all my attention but in the end, this is where new ideas are spread out over the greatest number of users. - Christopher Harley
MiniMage: Jeremy has a new baby. And if his wife let him away from those duties he's probably out having dinner with someone who has more influence than me. :-) - Robert Scoble
@Robert please don't make that comparison please. I like to raise questions and make conversations happen. If I do that by being the devil's advocate what is wrong there? - Steven Hodson
Brad_King Yes, I was joking a bit, I've been an enthusiasic Scoble follower for quite a while. But those are some impressive titles you are working on! - Stephen Pickering
Steven: I like your critiques. I usually learn something about myself and usually learn that I'm not communicating clearly or I'm too far ahead of the pack and the pack is getting pissed off. - Robert Scoble
New babies. Ah, yes. Those may or may not have their schedules down just yet. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
And if you notice, I no longer import anything into FF. Why bother with the aggregation. I know where everything is and if you'd like to find all my stuff; check my Google profile. - Christopher Harley
On the other hand, when the pack gets pissed off for being left behind it usually is a problem with the pack, not with me. I've been through this before many times. - Robert Scoble
@Stephen: I've had some luck being around this stuff for awhile. I just prefer a different profile level :) I get to hear more. - Brad_King
Christopher: why did you come to that conclusion? - Robert Scoble
@Robert then I have succeeded .. thank you .. but equally so you keep me honest and on my toes .. plus I do learn a lot from you - Steven Hodson
FF has scaled to size large enough that I can just search for everything. I'm here to laugh and learn. - Christopher Harley
Christopher: that seems to be a mighty lame conclusion to come to. Especially since we can hide specific stuff from specific services. - Robert Scoble
Christopher: yeah, but what if we want to see what kind of music you're listening to, or your videos, or your Tweets, or your blogs? I am doing lots of searches and that's the kind of stuff I want to see from you here. - Robert Scoble
Oh, I used to import everything but for me, and that's the key, for me it works differently now. - Christopher Harley
There is always something be learned and nothing to lose. I always try to enjoy my time spent here. - ashish
Christopher: interesting, because what you import has nothing to do with you. It has to do with what WE see of you. - Robert Scoble
Brad_King Oh sure I understand. Everyone must go with the grain of their personality. Or else they won't be as happy and productive, and it sounds like you are very productive! - Stephen Pickering
I share all those things. - Christopher Harley
Christopher: oh, then I'm missuderstanding. What aren't you bringing in here anymore? - Robert Scoble
Robert: Whenever I want to post something that I listen to or watched, I search FF first and find someone else has already posted it, so I just like/comment, rather than duplicate (most times). It's a rare joy to find that someone else hasn't beaten me to the punch. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Oh Jeremy, what have you done? Tsk. Tsk. - Louis Gray
It aint hurting him any, Louis! - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
@Louis .. okay what took you so long?? :) - Steven Hodson
Louis: he did an advanced trolling technique that has been used here several times lately to get engagement. Unfortunately I think it'll only work about three more times before people just ignore anyone who complains they aren't getting enough comments. - Robert Scoble
@Stephen: I spent a few years in the Robert-lite shoes when I was at Wired News. Took away from my time building things. Plus, Robert does it *much* better than most. - Brad_King
The need to constantly display everything lost its importance. Maybe I'm selfish but I can take away all that I want and share only what is germane to sharing right at that moment. The bookmarklet remains HOT. - Christopher Harley
Brad: I am building things. :-) - Robert Scoble
Robert - I work in Permits, and one of the clerks has a great saying about the way some people are. She said, "I can explain things to people, but I can't understand it for them." - Gary Etie
Brad_King well it sounds like you are doing very important work - Stephen Pickering
What is a "troll"? Am I a Scoble troll? - Stephen Pickering
@Robert: shush. I know you are. What you did is different than what we did. I didn't mean that in a negative way. @Stephen: important? hahaha. not at all. Curing cancer is important. I play with media. - Brad_King
Gary: good quote. Stephen: there's this thing called Google that I would love to introduce you to. :-) To everyone else, now I'm outta here cause I'm done with dinner and this was fun, but there's gotta be something else happening on friendfeed. :-) - Robert Scoble
That's right, there always is! - Christopher Harley
Brad_King well media is important, especially now! But I agree, there are different levels of "importance" - Stephen Pickering
wow... quite a bit happened over dinner it seems... if there were only THREADED comments, it would be so much easier for me to re-engage with anyone who said anything here. I'll have to do my best individually.... - Jeremy Toeman
/buckles seatbelt .. and the ride continues :) but I do agree about the threaded comments - Steven Hodson
Steven, sorry for the delay. The family (myself included) was at a real-lief wedding in Santa Cruz. - Louis Gray
@Robert funny, i both agreed and disagreed with your comments throughout, especially the ones where you talked on my behalf. re "trolling": meh, if that's your feel, whatever - I honestly didn't expect to see a conversation like this one emerge. re "ROI": in this case i really meant engagement with *anyone*, not just influencers... re "interestingness of my content": i think you cross the line a bit buddy, i am not asking for anyone's "approval" of the content i choose to share... re "busy due to baby": bingo. :) - Jeremy Toeman
hope you had a good time Louis :) - Steven Hodson
Jeremy, my twins can take more time than your baby. Let's talk. I can teach you. - Louis Gray
@Louis - i also have a 2 year old and run 2 companies... - Jeremy Toeman
and now i'm off to clean radishes from my garden (uninteresting, i know), then go watch a movie with the wife. real-time web, please have a good night, i look forward to seeing you again soon. oh, and i still stand by my original statement. :) - Jeremy Toeman
Jeremy: when you say stuff like this you gotta know that those of us who still are on the service will take it personally and spend a lot of time engaging on your item whether out of spite, fear, guilt, or just plain old "we feel like you just threw a pie in our face" reaction and we want to throw it back. That's why what you did was trolling. You should have known the reaction you'd get and the fact that you didn't shows you are losing touch with the community here (there have been several similar posts over the past week and they've all had the same reaction). - Robert Scoble
I wasn't going to chime in on this thread because frankly, I'm pretty new to FF and was enjoying the discussion. But Scoble is right on with his last comment. Jeremy, the fact that you posted this on FF and not on Twitter or your blog, at least to me, shows you to be a tiny bit disingenuous. It's like showing up to someone's party and and instead of politely excusing yourself and leaving quietly, you take the stage and announce that this party sucks. You're bound to get a reaction. - James Poling
Was it just me, or did Jeremy not actually address anyone but Robert and Louis? Then again, perhaps the salient points came from them? Still, I find it interesting that someone who runs two companies and rubs shoulders with tech elite has radishes in his garden and cleans them, himself. It's not riveting, but something I can't overlook. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
@MiniMage .. it's not just you :) - Steven Hodson
MiniMage: Yeah, so much for all those other poor slobs and their ROI who came to comment on Jeremy's point. - James Poling
Jason, don't mean to sound flippant, but the "hide" option is your friend. I've also found friend-grouping to drastically reduce the noise in my friendfeed :) - Adam Lasnik
I guess I missed all the ego stroking. I thought some egos were getting punched up there, myself. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
@Minimage, Steven, James, etc - nobody else really addressed me directly in their comments (with something that needed dispute in one way or another - I didnt realy think I needed to tell someone who agreed with me that i agreed with them for agreeing with me). most of the rest of the comments circled around Robert's arguments, not mine... so i apologize to anyone who said something to me that was waiting on a response, but it just seemed like the conversation had moved along by then. - Jeremy Toeman
@Jeremy :) any points can easily get lost in FF comments which is why I agreed with you about the need for threaded comments - Steven Hodson
@James interesting that you'd take it that way. a little history for you: I was *very* active on FF when it first debuted, and remained so for months. as i (1) became utterly deluged with work, (2) spent a month in the hospital, and (3) the multiple-times-aforementioned babies, my ability to participate as an active member here went way down, roughly to NIL. so now i get no love in return - understandable. i'm not trying to spoil *your* party, I'm observing how there just isn't much of one for me... - Jeremy Toeman
Jeremy: Do you have some sort of target number of Likes or comments per hour you invest in FF that you'd consider an acceptable ROI? - Ken Sheppardson
If I post accidently on Thomas hawk account, it's a best of day, on my account, not so much. - Mrsth
@Jeremy: I was being slightly tounge-in-cheek, but I see your point. I have a one-year-old at home and a job that keeps me virtually locked down from about mid-February to mid-April. Because of both of those things there have been times this past year when much, if not all of my networking, blogging and microblogging completely falls off as well. You are right obviously that any slowdown in your participation sort of causes people to pass you by. What makes it difficult to get back into the flow is not so much how much time you start investing back into the platform (friendfeed for our purposes) but the quality of your investment. The problem with that though is that the fact that you're spending less time connected not only makes you feel idle while people are passing you by, but that the posts you do make probably aren't all that profound (btw, I'm now speaking about both of us, this isn't an attack on you). In this case, my argument is that you're ROI significantly changes not because of the amount of your investment has changed that much, but the quality of your investment has. It's very difficult to jump in mid-race and have your finger on the pulse of what the current meme is and how your POV and experience can play into that. Does that make sense? - James Poling
@Ken how about 7? just kidding. no, i dont have quite so strict the definition of "ROI" here that I think XX hours of liking, sharing, and commenting should return YY results. but, per James' last point, it's a belief/feeling that to make YY>0 will take a LOT of hours. - Jeremy Toeman
@ Jeremy, @Scobleizer That's why Robert is so good at what he does. Even when he does have those periods of away time (as he will in a few months) when he comes back he will throw himself head first into the deep end and quickly get back with the pack. That's his job so he is afforded that luxury. People like us on the other hand, while our jobs may be peripheral to what Robert does, they are not actually what Robert does. So when we come back we have to wade into the shallow end and slowly make our way to the deep end because we're also trying to catch up on a lot of other little pools. People like us have to rely on people like Robert to sort of allow us to use his gravity field to set a trajectory and slingshot ourselves around his stream and launch back into our own orbit. OK, I've made myself sound geeky enough. - James Poling
@James i think i'm going to call that response "bulls-eye" (the one with the "tongue-in-cheek" comment, which was the one i was responding to when the other one showed up mid-typing... yup, i sure would like threads please). - Jeremy Toeman
@Jeremy, awesome. Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya. :) (oh and yes, threads please!) I may start adding that as default ending all of my comments, please add threads. - James Poling
Jeremy, not to beat a very dead horse, but, again, there's nothing wrong with the quality of your contributions. There are people here who get huge response from announcing what they had for dinner. I think the "real-time" design changes and recent uptick in user numbers have forced the most-active users to retreat to lists in order to manage the flood of input. If you're a more casual user (like us?) who lives mostly in the "Home" feed and has not been added to power users' lists, your stuff will fly by without a lot of the people most likely to engage you seeing it. That's a problem for us, but a bigger problem for the FF designers. - Sprague D
It probably helps to have a gazillion followers, but I think Robert's point about being willing to go where the conversation is happening is the key to getting a return on your FF investment. Crowds will often gather around certain topics, influencers or funny cat pictures. Rather than trying to win over the people already following you, focus on comment threads where you can add to the conversation instead. - Davis Freeberg
@sprague - totally agreed with you on this, sorry for not ack'ing earlier - Jeremy Toeman
@davis - i'm really not trying to "win" anything... - Jeremy Toeman
This far I find FF to be more of a consumption destination than a publishing platform. Interesting thoughts from interesting people but few people I know personally. That's how twitter felt to me 2 yrs ago, difference being FF has actual threads of conversation vs Twitter as a collection of brain farts - Ryan Miller from Nambu
Jeremy, after reading thru the 17+ hours of conversation in this thread that started as I walked out the door last night (i kept tabs on it a bit thru the night) i'm still wondering what 'value' means to you. Was Scoblizer correct in stating that the value to you is where it helps you influence people with large audiences (or however he was stating it)? To me 'value' is very subjective. That seems to be what everyone's caught up on here. - Chris Heath
He who posts and likes shall be rewarded in kind. - Russ Jackson
true, and yet I value the social linking so much. - susan mernit
Russ, that simply isn't true. Several of us have been saying that we like/comment a lot and just don't get the responses back. Furthermore, pretty much like what Sprague said, there are people who can post "eekeek ackack" and get 40 likes and 50 comments, whereas if someone else posted the secret to being a success in life, it would never be noticed. Am I whining about it? I hope not, I just don't want everyone claiming that all FFers will get back what he/she puts in. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
There does seem to be a pretty steep climb into the secret FF kabal, and then once you are there you can maintain your status pretty easily, but if you fall through the minimum level of activity for any reason (such as real life, etc) you will have to re-climb the wall. Not perhaps a bad thing, but that at least is my impression. If work/life takes me away from FF it takes me a while to get noticed again after I get back. I think this might be a result of the nature of the new real-time paradigm. - matthew john ernisse
This having to be active lots in order to be noticed I do not understand. If I see something that interests me, it doesn't matter to me if the poster had been gone for a week. And as a counterpoint, some threads become big, simply because that person had been missing for a while, and people were excited so see something from them again. Is there some sort of algorithm for this? - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
Maybe you should try to say something interesting. - Will Higgins™
Yes, that's what people keep saying. Yet people say things that are more interesting than what others who get noticed say (not all the time, granted). What makes someone else's "guess what movie I'm watching" picture more interesting than the ones that don't get noticed? I believe the answer is "nothing." Why should one person's shared YouTube video get no likes or comments, when someone else can post the same thing with no response? It's more complex than the cop-out, "Say something interesting" answer. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
If it was that simple, this conversation wouldn't exist or last so long. - MiniMage, sheeple of FF
@Chris - no, Robert's assumption of what I feel valuable was incorrect. While he is right in that a place where I could specifically remain connected with people in the CE industry *would* be valuable to me professionally, that actually was not part of my lament about FF. his assertion that I don't care about connecting with random folks of all walks of the Internet is way off in this case - Jeremy Toeman
@Jeremy it must be since you follow me :) :) - Steven Hodson
Bump... Looks like this one turned into a flame war to me.. - aerobroken
Jeremy, thanks for clearing that up. - Chris Heath
MiniMage: What you're describing/lamenting something that happens on just about any social sharing network with 'voting'. The first time I noticed this 'unfairness' was on digg.com when it started to get big in 2006. You will see the same type of complaints on digg: someone who's not as 'popular' submitted a story first, but another 'power user' submitted it after and it was promoted to the front page because of the power users's greater visibility... it's a shame and it's not fair - but that's life i guess - Chris Heath
I've edited the ^above^ post a couple times (if you're watching in real-time) - Chris Heath
Also, speaking of the problems with dupe submissions to digg: from what I understand about the future plans (and from the history of this issue) there will be (and have been) technological steps taken to get the dupe situation under control. - Chris Heath