Every Christmas the Dekker household has its annual Creation vs Evolution argument*. This year, I plan to swat up! *This is followed by the "interaction" about whether the previous "interaction" was a discussion, a debate, an argument, or a fight.
- Bronwen Dekker
Many of you know I've been working with Mendeley as a sort of ambassador/community liaison. I started this because I've always felt a little shut out from contributing to open science/open access/open data because I don't work for a publisher, don't really write code, and wasn't in a job where I could openly share data. This was a way to influence how things develop by promoting the people who "get it".
- Mr. Gunn
I had to quit for the "real job" a little while back and found not only that I had more time to work for Mendeley, but that I started getting other offers/opportunities also.
- Mr. Gunn
Now I've got a newborn daughter and am liking the time I can spend at home with her, which raises the following conundrum: Can I do more of this community liaison work for companies that support/promote open access and put my research career on hold, or is there not any future in this?
- Mr. Gunn
Can I trust the friends and colleagues I've met on here to be able to have a real discussion with me, keep me honest, and tell me if I'm backing the wrong horse as I take on more clients, or would I be considered a sell-out? Would people believe that my opinions still come from me and my experiences, or would people just think "You're only saying/supporting that because they're paying...
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- Mr. Gunn
Do you think there's room to grow in this kind of role or am I just wishfully thinking that I can make my own job in this tough economy and get to spend time with my daughter too?
- Mr. Gunn
I really believe this is a way I can contribute to changing how science is being done, opening up the process, disintermediating scientific discovery, and all those noble sounding things, but do you buy it, or do you think I'll not only become corrupted by money but lose my relevance because I'm not really doing science anymore?
- Mr. Gunn
Can I help companies that don't quite get it to improve and become better and more responsive to their community of users or will I lose touch?
- Mr. Gunn
I will be saying nothing works better than inspiring people by setting examples, I will not go with holding my research career even it is not working well as long as I have passion for discovering something. But there are certain realities and money is one of them. Ambassador/community liaisoning is other way to contribute back to the science, but it will be too early to give up your...
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- Abhishek Tiwari
Mr. Gunn. You can absolutely do so, but as you note, you cannot do this with one client. It will have to be a consulting/pundit role (you should probably have a chat with Paul Miller at some point http://cloudofdata.com). The life science industry will be challenging given the limited opportunities, and in this economy, this will not be a walk in the park. As to whether you have to be...
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- Deepak Singh
And we'll tell you if you're being an idiot. It also depends on what you really want to earn. You're not going to get rich doing this, at least not quickly.
- Deepak Singh
Abhishek, I could cite all the times when I've recommended Papers or Zotero instead because it really was better for what the person was looking for as evidence that I don't always have to say what the official line is, but that wouldn't illustrate all the discussions I've had where the company point of view _became_ my point of view. This is exactly the kind of discussion I want to be...
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- Mr. Gunn
Thanks Deepak. I know you will, and I'm not looking to get rich. I'm looking to do work for people I believe it, be a force for good, and at least for the moment, spend more time at home with my daughter.
- Mr. Gunn
Mr. Gunn, it will only taint it if you let it, although there will people who'll always be skeptical. As long as you are honest and present your point of view rationally, you'll be fine
- Deepak Singh
I'd like to think that being open and transparent online helps illustrate my biases, too.
- Mr. Gunn
Way outside my area of expertise, but I would think the "consulting/pundit" thing that Deepak mentions would involve lots of travel, especially to start. Not sure how conducive that is to spending more time at home...
- Andrew Su
Andrew, missed that bit. There would be a fair bit of travel
- Deepak Singh
from iPhone
Tough call MrG. I'm not concerned about you selling out, plus I will call you out if I think you are sliding into that trap (as, I'm sure, will the rest of the FF posse). My larger concern would be whether you can make a living that way. Is there a more regular (but part-time) gig that you could get to buffer the difficulties of forging a new path? For instance, do you write easily and...
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- Bill Hooker
Having a part-time gig would allow you more freedom to take risks and experiment, and could be phased out as and when your liaison/consulting work grew.
- Bill Hooker
Bill, that's a really great idea. My current commitments are only part-time, so having something more steady would both help the bottom line and insulate me from selling-out criticism - "I don't need to do this." Please, put me in touch.
- Mr. Gunn
the ultimate evidence for or against bias is behavior, would such a position restrict or inhibit assuming a critical perspective?
- Mike Chelen
What fun would that be, Mike? I just wanted to do a sanity check against my friends and colleagues here to make sure that at least some of them would promise to call me out if I started to not make any sense or drift away from the principles of openness this community takes as a fundamental principle.
- Mr. Gunn
Interesting situation! My take is that people who have no history of interaction with you, will not spend a lot of time looking you up online. As soon as they know you're being paid to do this, you'll be a sales rep - which means there isn't even any need to look you up, they already know who/what you are. Thus, IMHO, no online history will get you out of the sales rep box.
- Björn Brembs
I agree with Bill's suggestion, and also his non-worry about bias. Or rather, we're all biased, but you don't come across as a sell-out company mouthpiece to those who know you, so you can let that slide. Bjorn isn't tender, but he's right. Either way, you won't change it by adding on more opportunities to be a facilitator. And forging your own path to be more with your family - having been there, I would say you won't regret it later. One always has career regrets, but that's because we only have one life.
- Heather
Mr. Gunn. A full time liaison for a company will effectively make you sort of a sales rep. I have been a sales rep myself - which was a valuable learning experience, but I suspect, like me, not one you would fit comfortable into for a longer period of time (several years). When I left university, my friends and colleagues told me that I had a time-limit of 1-2 years to get back into...
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- Nils Reinton
Thanks, Nils, Heather, Björn. My intent is not to work full-time for a specific company, and I'm not doing that now. My intent is also to talk more about ideas and trends and less about specific products. Although I do spend a fair amount of time recommending Mendeley, I think Zotero shares their mission and I just personally prefer Mendeley. I used Zotero to write my first paper and it came down to me just wanting a desktop, full-screen app instead of their browser add on.
- Mr. Gunn
Björn - We all have our various reasons to believe what we do and say what we do. In my role, I'm not being paid to say anything or to have a certain opinion. In fact, I think where I disagree with the Mendeley guys is more valuable to them than where I agree, because what they're basically paying me for is my insights as a scientist who knows the field and keeps current with...
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- Mr. Gunn
I know I can't speak for anyone, and I'm not appointing myself spokesperson, but if I spend a lot of time listening to, talking about, and synthesizing ideas, and I can also effectively market those ideas to people who need to hear them (that is, companies who want to listen and adapt), isn't that a win? Couldn't that be my way to make a positive contribution to open access and linked data and personalized medicine and these causes that I already believe passionately in?
- Mr. Gunn
"Couldn't that be my way to make a positive contribution to open access and linked data and personalized medicine and these causes that I already believe passionately in?" YES, absolutely, you are already doing this very well. If you can make a living out of it, I salute you :-)
- Nils Reinton
Perhaps consider not just consultancy for companies, but also undertake work for public sector agencies (major libraries or funders), charities or not-for-profit companies.
- Frank Norman
Mr. Gunn - sure I think such a person would definitely be worthwhile to us! I was referring to people who do not know you: if you approach them and tell them you work for company X, my bet is that most of them will think "ah, he's a failed scientist trying to get me to use their products". Of course, this doesn't stop people from using company X's products (or sales reps would die out...
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- Björn Brembs
this is a great thread, Mr. Gunn, cheers for starting it, very interesting points, everyone; I would like to second Nils and Frank, and I think that some journals might also be interested in your advice (and community liaison work) and that this would certainly be a great service for anyone near to being an OA and linked data addict - isn't this a pretty wide range of users? we might create a list of arguments that you might wish to choose from when talking to journal publishers - test them on me ;-)
- Claudia Koltzenburg
Mr Gunn...you might know me from the ChemSpider system. For almost 3 years ChemSpider was run as a "for the community" project at my cost. i.e. My wife and kids lost a lot of access to me, despite the fact that I worked from home. It did NOT pay any bills...it just about covered costs. No, I was a consultant for a number of companies and worked hard for them, traveled a lot and used my...
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- Antony Williams
OT b/c it's blog not job related *but* I would cite this FF thread at some stage in this one. http://ff.im/YB4p from Feb '09.
- Graham Steel
Nils, thanks! Frank - that's a great idea. Can anyone put me in touch with someone at one of those agencies/companies? Björn - I see what you mean. Online rep doesn't translate offline automatically. Claudia - I've got a series of arguments, gleaned over the years from participation here and elsewhere. Can I send you an email? Antony - yes, I'm familiar with your work, and I have a...
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- Mr. Gunn
Mr. Gunn, one thing I've noticed in recent conversation with doctors (not academic MDs) is that most do not know much at all about OA, aren't sure what to make of a statistics-rich, data-driven science environment (or how to connect that data to actual human patients), and are leery about packages being hawked to them. Many are similar to me in age, meaning they didn't grow up in a...
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- Mickey Schafer
Well, I see myself being able to help in explaining these issues, but I don't think I'd get too far hawking products. I'm just not that kind of person.
- Mr. Gunn
Yeah, I just don't think I'm the salesman type. I think I'm more effective developing ideas than products.
- Mr. Gunn
You don't have to be a salesman to develop products. Product development requires a better understanding of customer needs than anything else out there. Being a product manager was one of the most satisfying jobs of my life
- Deepak Singh
from IM
Mr. Gunn -- I wasn't suggesting that you represent product -- actually, I was thinking more in terms of a "knowledge broker" -- the slow adoption of some technologies (whatever they may be) is often b/c the persons needing the tools don't know how to evaluate them -- sometimes, they may not know how to evaluate their own needs. Having an expert who can help someone understand the landscape, help them make choices based on needs (as opposed to sales pitches) is a very valuable resource. Just a thought!
- Mickey Schafer
Another area that is worth looking at, though probably represents a short term play, is that there are lots of people out there putting out calls for tenders to do small research projects in the Social Media/Publishing/Data/Science space. Again its patchy, and not regular but with some reliable money coming in from e.g. editing and writing this kind of work could do two things, firstly...
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- Cameron Neylon
MrG, did you get my email? I sent it to a gmail address that I have listed for you in my address book.
- Bill Hooker
Yes, I got the one you sent and I really appreciate it. I do plan to follow up when I get back into town.
- Mr. Gunn
Wow, it seems that Google has decided to censor out the interesting image
- Lars Juhl Jensen
When turning 180° later http://tinyurl.com/yh65ojc you can see that grandma was safe, and the truck has gone. So I guess, Google's staff stopped to help her
- Pierre Lindenbaum
Maybe the fire truck had nothing to with the accident. Maybe grandma saw the Google Street View car and go so excited that she fell on her bicycle ;-)
- Lars Juhl Jensen
Another paper of mine was published today! That marks the 2nd in a month. It's about the Protein Geometry Database. http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...
Bosco, this is a superb idea. Along with starting up a new journal/software hybrid, it will be great if existing journals insist users to submit source code, executable or VM of a bioinformatics software / database / server to a centralized repository like 'biohub.org'.
- Khader Shameer
While not linked to an actual repository (but rather, provides a snapshot of the s/w and data for the article), Journal of Statistical Software, does pretty much this
- Rajarshi Guha
I would take this further and the article text remains in the revision repo. The reviewers are sent to the article, not the other way around and it can be forked in just the same way the software can
- Frank
from iPhone
@Frank, this makes sense, since otherwise the paper would be static and refer to old versions. But then this assumes that as the s/w is updated, so is the paper
- Rajarshi Guha
@Rajarshi not neccessarily the paper should state which version/revision it refers to. It does not have to keep up with the sw. That is what documentation is for :)
- Frank
from iPhone
The more I think about it, the more I think some big-wig bioinformaticians should do a deal with Google Code to edit a journal. That might even align with Google Scholar.
- Bosco Ho
@Frank, in that case, why bother with a VCS? Why not just put a tarball with the source code for the version that goes with the paper?
- Rajarshi Guha
Great idea, but I can't see it working for data sets. Yes data sets evolve and should track provenance somehow, but having been in and around standards groups for some time now, this is an impossible task for a publishing group to take care of, especially considering the nature of big-data bioinformatics. Plus if goes against best practices for software source control (use factories, don't store your database...)
- delagoya
There are some interesting and non-trivial questions around this kind of idea as to what peer review should look like. Should such a journal provide virtualisation environments so that the code can be run? Example data should be a requirement presumably? Are peer reviewers expected to evaluate code "quality". Anyone thoughts on this would be extremely useful...and help guide a project like this into reality.
- Cameron Neylon
My answers to Cameron's points: (1) no, (2) yes, sample data would probably be used to run tests which should pass, (3) quality is somewhat subjective - minimum requirement should be that code runs and generates output as expected - but reviewers could certainly suggest code improvement where appropriate.
- Neil Saunders
So if the answer to 1) is no, does that mean that you can't necessarily expect referees to actually run the code? Or compile it? Or just that you pick referees appropriately? Or conversely that "refereeing" becomes a process of building up enough positive comments or karma points in the repository...? It seems to me that you want to bring the best of versioning systems and best practice...
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- Cameron Neylon
Referees should certainly be able to run code - I'm just not sure that virtualisation through the web interface is the way to do it. Seems like an additional layer of complexity that might get in the way of making this idea work.
- Neil Saunders
@Cameron & Neil: If it could be figured out how to to handle the virtualization (or having remote access to machines), I think that'd be a highly valuable addition to peer review. Easy for me to say (not knowing how to implement it), but I think it's a great goal to strive for. It doesn't seem too crazy to have the journal have a bunch of machines on hand so the authors can remotely upload / install code and referees could then remotely log in to look at and try out code.
- Steve Koch
I can't figure out where to jump into this thread. Personally, I think we just need a place to publish locations, i.e. the code is here, data is there and this is the version we used, etc. That must be maintained and being able to maintain that should become part of the funding process. Since funding agencies are the ones who are funding this research they need to include the ability to...
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- Deepak Singh
My feeling is that being able to run the programs somewhere on a server without downloading them is important - but that is very much a user's perspective. I often look at useful things that are made available and just have no clue how to actually make them work. A good range of downloadable executables would probably do the job for me though. Additional question: what are the standards for web services?
- Cameron Neylon
Which is why VM's and cloud services are such a big deal for demo's and provenance now. You can package up a VM with the exact stack that you want and make it available, either as a service or a VM you can launch yourself. It's too easy not to do it
- Deepak Singh
@Deepak : Cloud + VM is an an interesting combination, but should have an accessible pricing that is affordable to a larger research community
- Khader Shameer
I think there should be strict guidelines while reviewing bioinformatics software / database / servers to test the resource. I had a recent experience : a reviewer wrote extensive list of points to reject a server that we developed with out trying what exactly it is doing or to know how does it differs from other existing resources. I strongly support the hybrid journal model, also it...
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- Khader Shameer
Let's talk specifics. VM images are great, but you are tying your release to a particular release of a particular platform. A better approach is to start from a base OS (like a linus distro ISO) and have a set of build instructions for system set up and application building. My favorite of the moment would be Chef.
- delagoya
Second, academics love to solve a problem with a novel algorithm and then move on. In fact it is in their best interest to move on after milking a project for all it's worth, publication wise. Maintenance, or even robust testing (couch... Tophat ... cough ... Bowtie .. cough ) is not even on the radar. Frankly I am not so sure it should be. Maintenance requirements may slow the pace of...
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- delagoya
@delagoya, good point. If I have made significant improvements, why update the old paper? better to try for a new paper!
- Rajarshi Guha
delagoya, chef's fine too. Find a common medium/mechanism that works for the community. The resources are certainly there. It's a matter of trying things out. As someone I know says, start simple, and iterate
- Deepak Singh
Khader, that's where the funding agencies come in. They need to provide mechanisms for sustainable funding here.
- Deepak Singh
The nice thing about a hybrid journal is that it might be possible to have new dois/database entries for "significant" updates. Not perhaps just place holding papers as is the case sometimes in the NAR database issue but when something has changed significantly you can get a new paper without needing a new algorithm or service. I like the idea of funding to support "orphan" code and services as well. Make it worth money and people will do it.
- Cameron Neylon
Delagoya - as a naive user I disagree. I really don't want to have to build, I want to use in the lowest stress way possible and a hosted VM seems like a good way to enable that - as well as allow for longer term preservation. We may not be able to run linux on future hardware but will probably be able to handle VMs for longer (actually having written that I'm not sure its true - would be interested in more expert perspectives)
- Cameron Neylon
I almost missed this discussion. I really like the idea but I wonder how discovery type projects fit in. I mostly use code to look for trends. If anything I might make some predictor to enhance existing data. For these reasons most of what I do is one off scripts around perl and R. Maybe this sort of project does not belong in a bioinformatics journal at all.
- Pedro Beltrao
Pedro, great question. Personally, if we included all glue code, small scripts, etc this would be unsustainable and defeat the purpose of peer review as well
- Deepak Singh
@Pedro, I don't see a journal/software hybrid as replacing all bioinformatics journals. I think there's a place for journals that discuss pure algorithms and ideas. These would do exploratory type programming. Normal journals service these papers quite well. For me, a hybrid model targets specifically those papers that describe a program that is meant to be used by other people. In that...
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- Bosco Ho
Bosco, you're thinking along the lines of a communications journal aren't you. And then people can go to work on the code if it is on github or something
- Deepak Singh
@Deepak. Yep. The disconnect I see is that pragmatically, it's the open-source project that counts. The article in the bioinformatics journal is so that we can get a place-holder to collect citations that contribute to our academic CV. The journal/software hybrid provides the most efficient way to this goal.
- Bosco Ho
Very nicely summary of the problem. Really, the whole concept of a journal article about software is stupid. What does an academic article do? Alert people to a new finding/discovery. But in the case of software - well, the software is the finding. And people are "alerted" by finding it on the web, downloading it and using it. As Bosco says, the sole role of an article here is a CV tick - hence the hybrid approach. Non-academic programmers must find all of this very odd.
- Neil Saunders
What's the best way to embed a pdb crystal structure into a wikipedia article? Is there a gadget that allows reader to rotate & zoom? Or is static png the way to go?
I realized what I actually want: A widget that will display a molecular dynamics trajectory of the system, while allowing user to rotate, zoom, pull on atoms, etc. ... Comp. people get to work :)
- Steve Koch
One of the web widgets they offer at the PDB might work in the context of Wikipedia but I would guess this is one to have a wider conversation about? Andrew Su and Tony Williams would have an idea of the logistics at least.
- Cameron Neylon
The Jmol community has been trying for a long time now to get it available in Wikipedia... you could ask on jmol-users@ ...
- Egon Willighagen
As part of the Gene Wiki effort, we uploaded ~66k thumbnail images created by the EBI to wikicommons, and categorized them by SCOP. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki... Of course, they are auto-generated so they probably don't illustrate what you'd want to illustrate.. (and certainly not an MD trajectory...)
- Andrew Su
Thanks! Oh, and BTW, I was kidding about the MD trajectory, including the ability for the reader to pull on atoms in a real-time MD simulation. :)
- Steve Koch
Jmol has been up for discussion for a long time. I am not aware of any movement to support it at present. You might want to put the crystal structure hosted in Jmol elsewhere and make a link to it from the Wikipedia page rather than having it in the Wikipedia article itself.
- Antony Williams
"Yesterday I attended a biweekly meeting of an informal UC Berkeley group devoted to Python in science (Py4Science), organized by Fernando Perez. The format (in honor of my visit) was a series of 4-minute lightning talks about various projects using Python in the scientific world (at Berkeley and elsewhere) followed by an hour long Q&A session. I was blown away by the wide variety of Python use for scientific work. It looks like Python (with extensions like numpy) is becoming a standard tool for many sciences that need to process large amounts of data, from neuroimaging to astronomy... [see list of very interesting TOPICS and projects]." \\ see also http://fperez.org/py4scie... which includes links \ Video at http://www.archive.org/details...
- Adriano
from Bookmarklet
Good management = "reduce the number of people I have to talk to" ... you know, because you have more important stuff to do - http://www.phdcomics.com/comics...
errr - authors who give out their user details deserve what they get!
- Jo Badge
I'm not sure I've understood the implications of this, but isn't just like an account on any other service?
- AJCann
well, another option would be for journal submission systems to drop the requirement that only the corresponding author can submit. it should be enough to let the PI verify the submission.
- Michael Kuhn
A sharp-eyed camera aboard NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter has spotted the Phoenix lander encased in dry ice in the depths of winter on the northern polar plains of Mars.
Orbiter camera sees ice-covered Phoenix lander - http://neilfws.tumblr.com/post...
Kids would be carried to a closed place where they would be forced to sit still all day. Another group of adults would be determined to be the guards. Kids would not be allowed to do what they feel like doing, even if it were a very useful thing (e.g. reading a book of their own choosing), but they'd be forced to do what the guards tell them. There would be a pressure punishment system, publicly assigning symbols representing a kid's well-doing, per the rules laid out by the guards. This would go on day after day, for many years. Just imagine, what would happen?
- Philipp Lenssen
I'm guessing he was talking about schools, like Philipp was.
- Ed Millard
For only 13 years though? (er, silly me, forgot that the fact you graduate at 18 doesn't mean you spent your entire life till then in it....although it may feel like it sometimes)
- Maxamad
In the U.S. 12 grades plus kindergarten is common. I assume he considered it a jail break to make it to university
- Ed Millard
I don't :( It's significantly better, yes, but still sucks if you're a minor
- Maxamad
I mostly didn't show up to class in college, so it wasn't much of a prison, and I actually liked it to some extent.
- Paul Buchheit
I thought the point of the Stanford prison experiment was what it turned the "guards" into. Not sure what that says about teachers.
- Nick Lothian
For some reason teachers and parents don't become as cruel as prison guards. I think it has to do with external inputs. The Stanford experiment was essentially a closed system, while the outside world is open and might not have the same feedback loops.
- Gabe
Case wasn't that bad... we had fiber!
- Eric Borisch