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Auto-Tune the News #6: Michael Jackson. drugs. Palin. - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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dstamand, Sam Chupp, Kim Landwehr and blackysky liked this
Q7 per @davidspinks are bloggers becoming too repetitive? if yes, how can we avoid the "echo chamber" issue? if no, why? #journchat
blackysky liked this
We need real-time improvements to RSS and other feeds. More on why here:
Kathleen Capps, Ian Betteridge, Captain Jack and 95 other people liked this
Dave Winer's latest two posts on his blog are NOT on friendfeed yet. I had to manually link to one of his that's very important. This is something I would like to focus the community members of Building43 on.
- Robert Scoble
There are some alternatives out there, like friendfeed's SUP, but they aren't widely adopted.
- Robert Scoble
How can we work together as an industry to make RSS better and faster? I remember Dave Winer used to run a ping server, which kept things pretty quick. Do we need to build another ping server for the industry?
- Robert Scoble
almost seems the real time web is going to need two streets, one is memcached and the other isnt :)
- sean percival
And, if we are going to build another ping server, how do we build one so it serves everyone equally well?
- Robert Scoble
I remember when I first visited Dave Winer at his house. He'd refresh the list of all blogs that were pinging his ping server (it built a list of stuff that's new right now) and he'd visit all those links. Friendfeed reminds me a lot of that except friendfeed is too slow. I hate it when i see people talking about posts before they show up on their main feeds here, like happened with dave's posts today.
- Robert Scoble
I wonder what Dave Winer's thoughts are on this topic?
- Robert Scoble
I wholeheartedly agree. So often by the time something appears in Google Reader for me its 30 minutes old. RSS Needs to be made more efficient. The second you hit "publish" it should appear in my feed reader.
- David Lloyd
RSS is not real-time enough.
- David Lloyd
stop been such a cheer leader for friendfeed, yes we get it it's cool, but unless u r looking for some stocks from their, stop it dude... u r making of this a religion, ur view of 2010 is just a naive view of the future of the internet, there is more to be done. Yes more people around the world needs to embrase it, but there is more to just a twitter accound, a facebook or a a friendfeed place.
- Gilbert Corrales
Gilbert: OK, look at Facebook then. It has the exact same problem.
- Robert Scoble
gilbert FF is more than cool, it's the prototype for how many will share and interact in the near future.
- sean percival
Isn't this purely because RSS is modeled after a subscription pattern? "I have this available here you can subscribe. When I make an update I'll post it here and you have to come check if there is new stuff"
- Nicholas Orr
And Gilbert if you like your news "aged" then go back to reading newspaper. Everything there is guaranteed to be at least eight hours old by the time you get it.
- Robert Scoble
Naa Robert is right no matter how you look at it. Remember when you got your first 1mb internet how fast it seemed compared to dialup? It's time RSS was brought into the broadband era of being instant. There has to be a way of doing it.
- David Lloyd
Nicholas: right. If I update my RSS feed it can be hours or even days before various spiders come and visit it. Some pages are visited more often, but usually only because they are updated more often. In Dave's blog's case the spiders aren't visiting very often and even if they were they wouldn't be real time like my photos (OurDoings.com uses SUP to let friendfeed know it has something new to come and grab -- that works awesomely fast).
- Robert Scoble
Scoble: I am not talking about aged... I am talking that there is way more we can do than freendfeed... u can reach 40.000 in a single message, but is that it? how many people is in FF and how many in FB? how may come to ur blog from some other reason?... my current research focus on the semantic web, and how many people is after thatn?... yeh the NYT is startin to embrase that's nothing
- Gilbert Corrales
Gilbert: I'm talking about speed, not audience size. Don't know why you are on the attack here or what point you are trying to make. Facebook has the exact same problem friendfeed does.
- Robert Scoble
Gilbert: and so does Google Reader and other feed readers. They are too slow to have a decent conversation.
- Robert Scoble
Robert I don't want to speak out of turn but David Winer will be furious at this thread. It is perhaps the most important technical thread in a long while on friendfeed though in my opinion.
- David Lloyd
its posible do a temporizer for rss...Im working in this...the race begins...
- Ferdy
Only someone with a huge audience like you could have started this discussion and debate.
- David Lloyd
Mark: I don't agree that Dave will be furious. I think he should be furious that his content is not being seen WHEN he's writing it.
- Robert Scoble
I agree, I have the same problem. How do we get faster RSS? It is a problem for real time.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
Scoble: we need more than just this or fb (sorry if I am in attack mode.) but we need a bigger, radical chance... web 2010 is more than just this, it's about reaching where we haven't reach... 3rd worlds are on the rise, and we need some basic ground, and to be honest I dont think FF is
- Gilbert Corrales
Sorry to turn the conversation non-serious here but I am much more interested in precogs - I would like to know the news before it happens...real time is just too stale...haha :)
- Mike Bracco
Mark: that is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. You could have started it. THe second I click "like" on your item it goes to all my readers.
- Robert Scoble
oh cool, so when you like something it syndicates across all your followers in their feeds?
- David Lloyd
http://friendfeed.com/scoblei... ah there
- David Lloyd
Gilbert: we're arguing about RSS here. Not friendfeed. Take the friendfeed stuff to a different thread. Mark: that's EXACTLY how friendfeed works. Yes.
- Robert Scoble
I think that Google Wave might be the first thing that approaches the kind of speed you are talking about
- Chris Johnston
Chris: I can't wait to get Google Wave. So far I haven't gotten it because I didn't go to the Google I/O conference. But if Google Wave relies on RSS/Atom feeds it, too, will be too slow.
- Robert Scoble
Yes real time is cool.
- Randy Allen Bishop
Robert: Hmmm well the only reason OurDoings can update your FriendFeed is because you have a FriendFeed account... What if Dave Winer doesn't want a FriendFeed account. So now I'm thinking isn't this what those Blog aggregaters are used for? You don't need an account if you do create an account then you can claim your blog etc. Seems like SUP needs to be added to theses Blog aggregators and in turn WordPress/Drupal/Blogger others support that.
- Nicholas Orr
Well the google wave demo's were instant, as in, milliseconds, content was pushed from computer a to b instantly.
- David Lloyd
I want to know about what everyone writes THE SECOND they hit post. Dave's feed at http://friendfeed.com/davew still doesn't have his latest two blog posts.
- Robert Scoble
Google Wave relies on bots that can do whatever they want... (umm within the confines of permissions, waves. Its not a broadcasting platform, you have to be involved in the conversation)
- Nicholas Orr
it is not RSS that is the problem - it is the 'concept' syndication doesnt work - real-time filtering based upon the social graph is the future - twitter/FF etc are just one step along a path
- Nick Halstead
Please retweet this thread link on your twitters, might be a good way to get some more people over here on FF x
- David Lloyd
Nicholas: no, the reason OurDoings works so fast is because it doesn't use RSS. It uses, instead, SUP which comes into friendfeed nearly instantly. The problem is that very few web sites and services use SUP, most rely on RSS. So, I guess one answer is to spend years evangelizing SUP. I'd rather see some other "upgrade" of what RSS does, so that the whole system gets real time without a bunch of years wasted evangelizing yet another protocol.
- Robert Scoble
Scoble: problem is (as I see it) is that as far as I've seen everything for u gets solve in FF, yes it's a step up from RSS, but how many orgs can have a Scoble here? we need something that allows for conversation but also allows for growing and for commerce (like the ones u r targeting for) no everyone is up for this change... but an incremental change
- Gilbert Corrales
Robert: yeah I get that SUP is what does it quick. However you have to have an account. RSS requires no account. If you know about RSS address you can look at the content.
- Nicholas Orr
I just 'liked' this post, and it displayed almost immediately in my Google Reader. Is it the 'like' function, my connection, or something else that is different...
- Wallace
Nicholas: good point. Which is why people far smarter than me need to explain to me how RSS will get real time features.
- Robert Scoble
Sorry but SUP is just a bodge on top of RSS - it was designed to allow FF more efficient access to when things update. SUP is has not got a future in making the web real-time end of story
- Nick Halstead
Wallace: Google Reader's spiders hit certain pages very often because they know they are getting updated very often. Google, for instance, is indexing friendfeed every few minutes, if not faster. But it doesn't treat EVERY web page/web site that way.
- Robert Scoble
are you a developer Nick? you sound like you know what you are talking about with all the jargon
- David Lloyd
Nick: since you build real time systems I would love to know your ideas of how RSS will become more real time.
- Robert Scoble
Mark: Nick Halstead is the guy behind TweetMeme.
- Robert Scoble
how deliciously exciting!
- David Lloyd
Robert: Doesn't FriendFeed / Twitter make RSS less relevant today?
- Jim Connolly
RSS IS everywhere Jim, is what Dave said, its liek HTTP or FTP it will always be there
- David Lloyd
the work twitter is doing on HTTP streams is much more interesting to me, this is about large volume filtered content being delivered out to multiple destinations.
- Nick Halstead
Jim: no. A lot of what is imported here is RSS.
- Robert Scoble
Jim Connolly: Yes, I think it is.
- PWR
@Robert - it is split into two parts - how content is delivered to users - Like 'long polling' which FF uses (and we do as well) - and then how big systems transfer real-time data - and that is what twitter is doing with HTTP Filtered Streams
- Nick Halstead
@Robert I see Google / Others all starting to consume these new streams (It cant just rely on just polling websites every hour/day anymore)
- Nick Halstead
Quite simple -- they should support the weblogs.com ping protocol. It's brain-dead simple. If they don't like XML-RPC they can use the REST version. Then FF would immediately be compatible with every blogging platform out there. I've been saying this for over a year, but they either don't listen or they do and they don't want to do it. THey've never responded. So your issue is with them. It's easy for FF to get on the bus. Set up a ping server and you're done.
- Dave Winer
@Dave that is never going to work on scale - if it was going to work it would have been done, the next step is to allow consuming of real-time streams - I dont care what format the stream is in but we cant go back to thinking polling techniques can give us even a sense of real-time
- Nick Halstead
Nick Halstead is the gaffer behind the sublime http://tweetmeme.com/, Dave x
- David Lloyd
At the moment if you click 'retweet' on one of our retweet buttons (when your logged in) it takes 5-6 seconds to get from TweetMeme -> Twitter -> FriendFeed ... that sounds impressive, but it 'should' be instant
- Nick Halstead
so who pays to have servers turned on with n people connected to it ready to recieve content via push? Isn't that what this is coming down to? You have the content creator and the content cosumer, then in the middle is the content pusher - I don't see content creators or content consumers paying content pusher...
- Nicholas Orr
Robert & Mark: My bad - I forgot that RSS is how we pull everything together on FF. I was thinking exclusively regarding FF and Twitter as a source of new, fresh material. Thanks for the heads up guys!
- Jim Connolly
@Nicholas - the joy of the new technologies is that having open connections is actually more efficient than delivering separate requests ever 30 seconds (i.e. AJAX polling)
- Nick Halstead
Here I manage 20 platforms with RSS, can i see which is more fast to receive data...http://www.fdeflash.com/fpanel...
- Ferdy
Scoble, also when you talk to your friends at FF, ask them to support OPML import and export. I think you should go on strike until they do that. It's about the most user-unfriendly thing they could do. It's been too long for it to be a matter of resources. They're building a roach motel here. I wouldn't add any more value here until they add a way out.
- Dave Winer
www.getpingd.com is an attempt to solve this problem by adding a real-time, peer-2-peer ping ontop of RSS
- Chris Saad
@Nick - yeah content pusher was what I made up for your open connection - where do you get an open connection from? Isn't RSS an open connection? FriendFeed works well for us because we have accounts. Say someone creates a new blog, that isn't going to go anywhere until that person creates a Twitter account and FriendFeed account and connects the blog - then it will be plugged into the...
more...
- Nicholas Orr
@Nicholas a range of technologies exist now to deliver data delivery that relies upon an open connection such as 'comet' http://cometdaily.com/ - FF uses it - it requires very different server architectures so it is taking time for developers to move onto it
- Nick Halstead
Gnip is an attempt to do this with a Central Service - but it doesn't need to be central - it should be distributed - again - refer to getpingd.com :)
- Chris Saad
Chris, you think all this hasn't been beaten to death ad nauseum? We're coming up on the 10th anniversary of weblogs.com. All the would-be reinventers have given up. Over and over. You guys should have reunions! :-)
- Dave Winer
Scoble, if you can hear me -- try following this account. http://friendfeed.com/friends... You'll get all my updates within five minutes. And a bunch of others you probably are missing too. :-)
- Dave Winer
anyone know how to get realtime twitter mentions on friendfeed?
- Tyler Gillies
Question: what runs IM technology (IRC)? Could this be a solution applied to RSS. Obviously, I'm not a developer just thinking out loud.
- Jason Cronkhite
xmpp is the best PUSH IM technology IMHO
- Tyler Gillies
"There are some alternatives out there, like friendfeed's SUP, but they aren't widely adopted. - Robert Scoble" - YouTube just recently announced SUP support: http://apiblog.youtube.com/2009...
- Benjamin Golub
whatS UP?
- Tyler Gillies
SUP FAQ: http://code.google.com/p...
- PWR
It looks like Rob is AFk - probably gone to a party or something ;)
- David Lloyd
you calling me a FAQ?
- Tyler Gillies
wordpress SUP plugin http://neothoughts.com/2008...
- Tyler Gillies
typically appears on friendfeed within 10 seconds [so the site says]
- Tyler Gillies
Yeah - SUP does this. I use it on my site, and Youtube is starting to use it as well. Google just encouraged developers to begin taking advantage of it.
- Jesse Stay
There is absolute proof that people want to interact in real-time. It's called Google Wave. Google and Facebook have been making a habit of using FF as a test environment for new features (comments, likes, sharing, grouping, etc). Real-time is just the next 'wave' Google will be stealing.
- Scott Magdalein
Google's Wave is also a solution. I have a test account and I can see it becoming a real-time replacement for blogging.
- Jesse Stay
Robert, BTW, if you ever want to play with it, I can give you access to my test account to play with.
- Jesse Stay
Justt add a Google Reader layer to Google Wave, problem solved. Did you try it?
- Charbax
@charbax - not really, the problem is that Google Reader (wave or not) still takes forever. it's not a layer issue, it's a paradigm issue.
- Scott Magdalein
I went through this a few years back. Including the 'ping server' concept where my server would ping the ping server with new content. The ping server would then ping all subscribers. The subscribers would then request the new RSS. Then I realised: That's basically what XMPP is for. We just need an extension to XMPP that is for RSS style syndication. Other XMPP clients subscribe to my...
more...
- RickMeasham
@Jesse: You've got to be in the conversation though. I guess a group could be created "everybody@onthe.net" and we could all opt into that group. Then all we have to do is add the group and bam instant global broadcast :) (Google Wave)
- Nicholas Orr
Publishers have to have the infrastructure for realtime or they need to syndicate to a service, like Friendfeed, that acts as a hub. If you look at the way FedEx works, they send all packages to a hub before sending them to their end destination. As a publisher, I don't need any scale to push to Friendfeed, who can handle the scale of thousands of clients polling it. Even with pings, if...
more...
- Peter Warnock
Funny, was reading the Observer pattern section yesterday in the Gang of Four's seminal book on Design Patterns. It made me think I should blog about how RSS needs to implement aspects of it & just generally improve to handle realtime. Why not have the protocol allow for items to be pinged that are > guid X. (caveat, not sure if any of this has been spec'd out, haven't come across it...
more...
- Joe Devon
Why not just build all the good features from RSS and other feed systems in to Google wave
- Michael Mooney
do you think google wave will kill friendfeed?
- Tyler Gillies
friend feed should be one of the first Wave providers with it's own look and feel but still 100% compatible.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Michael Mooney
Google wave will certainly not kill FF. It will increase FF's relevance. The two services are totally different.
- Scott Magdalein
Scott why do The two services need to be totally different
- Michael Mooney
Wave is something that social media services will adopt. It will certainly not kill them. Michael, why are they different? For the same reason that FriendFeed and email are different. They just aren't the same at all.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Remember Friend Feed, Facebook, Twitter, IM & E-mail are basically tools for communicating. so why do they need to be need to be totally different?
- Michael Mooney
They don't need to be, they just are. It's like asking why apples need to be different from oranges.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
They don't NEED to be different. They ARE different by their nature and purpose. Even though Wave is moving messaging to a more collaborative environment, it's still not an OPEN environment. That's where FF steps in. It's an ongoing, open conversation in real-time.
- Scott Magdalein
from email
As I said, it is likely that services like Facebook and friendFeed adopt the wave standard (not necessarily google's products though) as their new means of communication. I will also suggest that I will likely use most heavily, any social media service that uses waves for communications.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
People can be free use the Friend Feed wave or Facebook wave or Google wave or CNN wave each optimized for their communitys
- Michael Mooney
If static non-interactive web & e-mail are seen as Web 1.0, social services & IM as Web 2.0, so Wave Providers maybe be seen as Web 3.0
- Michael Mooney
Nicholas, exactly. One would just need to subscribe, and the blog would broadcast on each post out to that wave group. Real-time. You could even incorporate comments via that means, real-time.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, that's exactly the problem. Broadcast media isn't real-time when you try to also incorporate conversations around it. That's why FF isn't a broadcast medium, it's a conversation medium. Google Wave will still be far too fragmented to hold OPEN conversations.
- Scott Magdalein
from email
Nicholas Orr said, "well the only reason OurDoings can update your FriendFeed is because you have a FriendFeed account". Actually, any aggregator can get the same real-time results as FriendFeed. You could build your own competitor to FriendFeed and use SUP the exact same way FriendFeed does without asking my permission. Ping services don't allow that.
- Bruce Lewis
Hope all the social media service R&D teams are brainstorming on how to improve the web in events like Iran
- Michael Mooney
Superfeedr - realtime via xmpp & pubsubhubub http://blog.superfeedr.com/gospel...
- Capn' One Eye - adrift
Bruce Lewis - The point I was making was there needs to be an aggregate/hub for the information to flow too, otherwise people will need to visit lots of places. You can't have your content show up on FriendFeed unless you have an account :) People who start a blog right now aren't auto plugged into anything and have to plug themselves in. In order to have real time of the entire web I...
more...
- Nicholas Orr
FrameChannel doesn't have a FriendFeed account as far as I know, but I created a group and added one of their blogs to it. So I'd amend what you said to, you either need an account on the aggregator, or a user on the aggregator who's interested in following your blog. I think that's reasonable.
- Bruce Lewis
Wow, what a FF thread, and they say RSS is dead. This to me is simply a push vs pull debate. Granted RSS (the spec) is dated but RSS is highly used and useful. I believe RSS needs to evolve more like XMPP with Distributed hash tables like P2P networks. Allow RSS feeds to know how many active connections there are that it needs to send real time (which seeders such as GReader could...
more...
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
Peter is exactly right, RSS/Atom is a "virtual" publish and subscribe pattern. For it to be a real publish and subscribe pattern it will need to 1) know and keep track of who/what has subscribed and 2) send out the new/updated content to all current subscribers at the time of publishing. XMPP probably points the way most clearly to date.
- Barry Baker
XMPP pubsub http://xmpp.org/extensi... Webhooks http://blog.webhooks.org PubSubHub http://code.google.com/p...
- Ken Sheppardson
If you had a Wave and had people join it, like following you on Twitter or subscribing on Friendfeed, you would then get the equivalent of those services but in real time and with playback.
- Chris Johnston
Indeed, hopefully PubSubHubbub will solve this. It can turn all of the web's feeds into push. http://pubsubhubbub.googlecode.com
- Brett Slatkin
My Iranian brother in law: "I've never seen anything like this, CNN is nothing but Iran all day."
Farzad, Holger Eilhard, Kol Tregaskes and 25 other people liked this
this is crazy.....it's a world revolution
- blackysky
See what happens when people complain for 2 days straight? :). #CNNFail really affected them.
- Grant Gochnauer
Well, world revolution is a little far fetched. Possibly the start to a Middle Eastern revolution!
- Ian Holton
They're doing a good job making up for last wkend's non-coverage. And they're supposedly having Amanpour on at midnight, instead of Larry King interviewing the Jonas Brothers' parakeet.
- DB
Robert - can you confirm rumor of tanks rolling in at Azadi Square tonight? I know you said you are connected with some in Iran right now. Trying to confirm for @BreakingTweets
- Breaking Tweets
Breaking Tweets: I haven't heard that, but my family is expecting this government to do something like that. They say this regime is brutal and won't allow these protests to continue.
- Robert Scoble
the army and Revolutionary Guard(and therefore their tanks) are not in the streets yet, they are riot police and Basiji militias beating and killing our brothers and sisters
- A.J.
Robert, thanks for your reply. If you hear anything more, please let us know @BreakingTweets. We have heard the same about the regime and how they won't let protests continue.
- Breaking Tweets
Breaking Tweets: I have seen many more tweets that suggest confirmation of tanks than tweets saying this in unconfirmed. (not much to go on but...)
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
It should be Iran all day.... something revolutionary is happening. I'm very excited. Go Iran!
- Kevin A. Burton
Funny, CNN is doing a money show right now.
- Robert Scoble
Yeah, I turned on and checked CNN and their sister station (the old Headline News) and neither is covering this now....
- Steve de Mena
I'm afraid it's going to end just like China's student revolution, big tv coverage, then big death at tianamen, then we all forgot about it and nothing changed except a growing debt to China.
- Steve C
@Steve C. I have the same fear about these events fading into anonymous history. We still don't fully know who was the student in front of the tank line in Tianemen... or what happened to him :-(
- Carlos M. Gomes
June 2009 is the 20 year anniversary of Tank Man, or the Unknown Rebel, the nickname of an anonymous man who became internationally famous when he was videotaped and photographed during the Tiananmen Square protests on 5 June 1989. TIME included the “Unknown Rebel” in its 100 most influential people of the 20th century.
- sherry reynolds
where in the heck is MSNBC--crap programming--the world is changing and we have next to nothing on TV
- Eleanor Wynn
@Eleanor Wynn - You do have a remote control or a channel knob, don't you?
- Ralph Friedman
CNN is reporting NO SIGNS of tanks or armored vehicles: http://friendfeed.com/cnn-rep...
Thomas, Michael Mooney and blackysky liked this
In Tehran, according to its sources that are on the ground. It's 5 a.m. in Tehran right now.
- Robert Scoble
Tanks should go where and do what?
- Charbax
thought of turning on TV to follow Iran coverage, then realized I'm already following it...without the crap
- Brian Appleby
tanks.... ??? god I hope not.... it's gettin crazy.. they can't control this mouvement
- blackysky
as long as the army sides with the government it will be hard for the protester to be successful, need to have a important unit show clear support for the opposition, like what happened in Russia in 1991
- Kim Landwehr
It's time for the Greeks to get back the Elgin Marbles. I'd ask my UK friends to support this r/t http://news.bbc.co.uk/2... #ElginMarbles.
ikera, endiaferon, blackysky and 3 other people liked this
... and return the Sphinx's beard to Egypt!
- Stephan Romeo
TRUE :) RT @markshaw Just finished watching 2 videos from @mariaandros & other @garyvee they both say you have to have passion to succeed
blackysky liked this
@PrestonHaley uservoice helpsell get feedback from my readers. Love it. Not sure what youean by "plans for it"
blackysky liked this
Me and Grandpa by the fireplace at Christmas http://jasoncalacanis.posterous.com/me-and-...
blackysky liked this
excellent post on work/family balance http://steveblank.com/2009...
blackysky, Stephen Smyth and Linda Mills liked this
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