Björn Brembs - Comments

As you said the other day, it's not science. Or do you have a philosophy blog? - Alexander Kruel

My blog is a little bit of everything but nevermind, the point is that free will IS entering the scientific language. It's not the free will we're used to (it's not necessarily conscious, it's fully brain based etc) but it's certainly getting in: on the brain science podcast just the other day they embraced it, and a paper I read this weekend is full of intentional concepts despite... more... - Christopher Harris

Yeah, it IS entering the scientific language. But wait, it's not what you think it is. It's really banana juice. Sorry people for the deception. Well, I'm not going to read it. Up next: the reintroduction of evil into the legal system. Again, not what you think, it's just free people doing bad things. Phew... - Alexander Kruel

I think I know why you're so adamant about this. I was raised Christian too and the stress of spending many young years realizing how much of what I'd been told was false and irrational still to this day predisposes me to attack anything that smells like scientifically naive, wishful thinking. Free will used to be a prime target of this anger and frustration as late as a few years ago.... more... - Christopher Harris

Seriously, scientists are also just humans. I've been amazed lately of how dumb educated people can be. Ever heard of Nassim Taleb? What a crank. Anyway, it's really sad to hear this. Free will is the creationism of neuroscience. And if it's true what you're saying, then woo is winning in that field. It's also not ignorance not to read some mathematical musings you may provide underpinning your notion of free will. I don't do it for the same reasons that I don't read papers by Jehovah's Witnesses. - Alexander Kruel

It's not just religious opposition. I'm saying the same when it comes to all the bullshit about consciousness. Or take Roger Penrose, I'd tell him he's making up bs there any time. It's dancing around rainbows end. You don't need expertise for this stuff. It's just flawed reasoning. An oxymoron. Of course, that there is something rather than nothing is a problem that also conflicts with... more... - Alexander Kruel

Well, sometimes there ARE reasons to assume things. For instance we don't know that other people are conscious but the way they talk and act make us assume they are. With recent advances in brain imaging we're starting to be able to distinguish conscious from unconscious brain states which gives us more reason to assume other people are conscious, even though the evidence is not... more... - Christopher Harris

What I meant about bs regarding consciousness is the opinion of some that we cannot tackle this concept with science. The sacrosanct of subjectivity and the first-person perspective. I've written something on topic here: http://friendfeed.com/minds... - Alexander Kruel

"If I cut my throat I may disover that I was dreaming or that I have been playing some advanced virtual reality game all along. Everything is possible. But right now there are safer and more promising options of gaining knowledge. How can I be sure? I can't, but there is evidence which proved to be reliable so far. I have to suspect that it will continue to be reliable based on... more... - Alexander Kruel

Assume free will? No reason. It's a concept that should at best be examined by psychology or the social sciences. It's a cultural idea. - Alexander Kruel

Hey don't despair about free will being studied by scientists, consider this: Even if science truly incorporates free will, such that there are centers for The Neuroscientific Study of Free Will popping up everywhere the way they do around consciousness studies at the moment, then we may still get to a point were we understand the operation of free will in human brains so thoroughly as to be able to predict free decisions. At that point science will truly have killed any traditional notions of free will. - Christopher Harris

I don't despair. I'm just worried about the underlying reasons people have to introduce it in the first place. Suspicious. And it may slow down discovery. It highlights a fundamental error in reasoning in that field. That is bad. At the very least, it will always act as a semantic obfuscation for calling randomness, unpredictability and spontaneous behaviour 'free will' when there obviously exist other, more descriptive terms. - Alexander Kruel

blah..."for calling" not not ;-) - Alexander Kruel

We can't know whether there "obviously exist other, more descriptive terms" until we know more about the phenomenon we're naming. 'Random' doesn't cut it, that was the point of Brembs' 2008 paper. 'Spontaneous' doesn't cut it because behaviour is spontaneous even in disease states where autonomous agency is impaired. This is why I want to write a blog post, to list the similarities and... more... - Christopher Harris

Well, nobody can stake a claim to natural language. If you actually want to create your own definition of 'free will', I'll refer to "'free will' as defined by Harris" (or "Free Harris") thenceforward. But what do you say isn't 'cutting it'? What phenomenon? I know that randomness is poriferous. Spontaneous is fatuitous. I commited the mistake to name those terms for the ease of not... more... - Alexander Kruel

Oh no no, I've gone along with trying to articulate and defend the new free will here but I haven't yet decided what I really think about it and it's certainly not my idea. - Christopher Harris

The phenomenon is the generation of will and behaviour by nervous systems - Christopher Harris

I think you're confusing a naive mind over matter attitude with a dynamical systems attitude where emergent properties are important - Christopher Harris

Just forget what I said. Was maybe all bs. A blog post on emergent properties would be cool. Sorry. Thanks. - Alexander Kruel

I think you should write a blog post about free will after all. I'd like you to unravel the following points: 1. To what does the word 'free' in 'free will' apply? 2. What would be the difference between a being (i.e. fruit fly) which posses free will and one that doesn't? 3. Does free will apply to a certain entity or behavior? 4. Is there a borderline between free and not free? 5. How... more... - Alexander Kruel

well I'll have to so something, just got this comment on my 'What is dopamine?' video: "i love this video. i too think that we're just one big chemical machine with no free will. just the playing out of molecules in a bigger scale." - Christopher Harris

those are good questions though, hope I can address some of them when i'm done reading (still going through the papers Bjorn Brems recommended.. this Vladimir Brezina guy is vicious on the maths, hard to keep up) - Christopher Harris

Well, that's completely obvious to me since I first thought about it when being much younger. That's why I'm commenting here and elsewhere. Out of sheer incredulity that anybody in his right mind could contemplate about free will for long. I don't want to be derogatory here. I could be wrong, I could suffer some neurological deficit. As I said above, I can't wrap my mind around the... more... - Alexander Kruel

And about math, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

You can show all kind of stuff with math. Just take string theory. If you want to prove 'free will' with math, simple answer: 'Not even wrong' - Alexander Kruel

On the other hand: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/margina... - That would rock, I'd love that to be the case. - Alexander Kruel

I don't actually care about the philosophical/semantic arguments around free will all that much. what matters to me are the cases where free will most obviously breaks down. how can we learn to control ourselves better? that's my real concern. - Christopher Harris

Where 'free will' breaks down is really when volition breaks down. Anyway, self-control is the enemy of diversity. I'm here, doing this for a lack of control. If I had enough control I'd still be religious today, ignoring everything that might shatter my desire to believe. -- Always reminds of this quote: “If we could deliberately seize control of our pleasure systems, we could... more... - Alexander Kruel

This is just in: When Situations Not Personality Dictate Our Behaviour - http://www.spring.org.uk/2009... "Contrary to our instincts, however, studies such as this one demonstrate that it is frequently the situation that controls our actions more strongly than personality." - Alexander Kruel

Full list of publications by Vladimir Brezina http://146.203.52.26/Neurosc... - Alexander Kruel

That's something for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

Just Exactly What Is Determinism? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... / Forget free will and get on with empirical psychology. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... / Free will is not a question for science. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... - Alexander Kruel

Good question: "The will is thought to be free if a person manages to overcome a short-term temptation for the sake of a greater, but later, value. Self-regulation raises a final asymmetry. Suppose you have a choice between slapping a misbehaving child and patiently discussing her behavior. Will you get free-will credit only for patient self-regulation?" - Alexander Kruel

How would one differentiate between a system with "genuine" free-will, and a deterministic system whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system? - Christopher A Carr

@Christopher: What's 'genuine' free will? The last serious thinkers to take dualism seriously probably were Popper and Eccles in the 1970s. Since then, dualism has been dead. I don't see any professional neuroscientist claiming that anything other than the brain is everything we are, as people, identities, self. So apart from a ghost in our heads, what's 'genuine' free will? - Björn Brembs

@Christopher You'd better ask him if a fruit fly without spontaneous variations in its behavior would be in any meaningful way different, from one which possess a spontaneous variation generator, regarding the notion of free will. To me it is a laughable resurrection of a obsolete concept by twisting its meaning beyond recognition. In other words, a "free will of the gaps" approach.... more... - Alexander Kruel

By the way, Brembs' paper is very good and important work. Something I admire. I'm just calling bullshit on its interpretation. Just so that is clear, some people are easily upset :-) - Alexander Kruel

The brain as system that 'transforms sensory input into motor output' is a working defintion but has nothing to do with the reality of physical interactions. It cannot be used to call willful action free contrary to deliberate acts that are purely deterministic. In no meaningful way, regarding the concept of free will, are internal interactions within a brain different from interactions... more... - Alexander Kruel

Possibility and Could-ness http://lesswrong.com/lw... - "The statement, "I could jump off the cliff, if I chose to" is entirely compatible with "It is physically impossible that I will jump off that cliff". It need only be physically impossible for you to choose to jump off a cliff - not physically impossible for any simple reason, perhaps, just a complex fact about what your brain will and will not choose." - Alexander Kruel

Didn't know about this: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

One of the easiest hard questions, as millennia-old philosophical dilemmas go. Though this impossible question is fully and completely dissolved on Less Wrong... http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

@Christopher many chaotic systems in nature (e.g. the weather) are deterministic systems whose future states cannot (as far as we know) be predicted/calculated short of running the system, but we don't think of them as having will; we don't think of them as agents. even a willful agent might not be considered capable of free will however if his/her/its will expresses itself merely as... more... - Christopher Harris

@Alex "The notion of free will has a lot to do with choice and control, neither of which can be used to describe how your brain processes its decisions." This is simply incorrect: choice and control are the subjects of countless rigorous investigations, the terms are used in the neuroscientific litterature every day. Stop saying these things cannot be studied scientifically, they can,... more... - Christopher Harris

OK, Christopher, let me rephrase that: How would one differentiate between a brain with "genuine" free-will, and a deterministic brain whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system? - Christopher A Carr

Björn: Indeed. So why is the term "free-will" used? - Christopher A Carr

@Christopher (awesome name by the way) I'm not sure what you mean by "genuine", people have always struggled with the definiotion of free will, from Hume's compatibilism to Kant's transcendental freedom. I'm interested in this new intepretation of free will because it may finally give us something more solid to work with, something I can study in the lab and do statistics on. I think... more... - Christopher Harris

I only use the term "genuine" (and in quotes) to note that one can't tell the difference between the two cases I offered, at least as I understand the meaning of "free-will." I guess I'm with Alex in not comprehending why you bother with the term at all. - Christopher A Carr

What is your definition of Free Will, Christopher A. Carr? Apart from any philosopher's interpretation, what do you say it is or rather, what would you like it to be? - Melanie Reed

Melanie: You would be the only one in the thread now to define it as that thing which is beamed into heads by Yahweh, the Semitic mountain deity. Your inclusion in the discussion can only effect a hijacking of the thread. - Christopher A Carr

That is not for you to judge. I asked a question. It is pertinent to the subject matter. It is your choice (free will) to answer it. - Melanie Reed

Christopher, my reason for considering using that term is that most people have an experience of free will, and it may be that the process underlying that experience is very interesting and important. I'd like to understand the workings of that process in a small neural network and maybe one day reproduce it computationally. Also, people stress about free will with regards to the iPlant and dopamine in general, so this re-intepretation may be fruitful to that side of what I do too. - Christopher Harris

Melanie: Actually, I think it would have to be accounted for by some metaphysical woo-woo along those lines, which is why I think it's nonsense. Were we to talk about the subject, it would devolve into the omniscient creator, pre-determination/self-determination paradox, which is not the subject of this thread. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: How would the subjective experience differ between those two options I offered? - Christopher A Carr

Thou mayest, Christopher. Not a microbe. Not quark. Thou. - Melanie Reed

Christopher Carr: I think you're right, you can't really tell if we actually have free will, or if it's just an illusion due to the underlying mechanisms of consciousness. But, the sensation of free-will--the feeling that we have to make choices--is surely something we've all experienced, and if it's something we experience, then the underlying mechanisms can be elucidated. - Victor Ganata

Victor: I agree. I'm all for the study of neural correlates of the sensation of free-will, or however you might want to phrase that... - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: "Thou" is a second person singular pronoun. So? Appealing to those texts you worship cuts no ice with me. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: It comes from a very famous quote out of John Steinbeck's novel East of Eden. The main character of the Chinese Housekeeper, Lee, who despite his position is a meticulous researcher of language. He explains to Cal at the end the fruit of his lifetime research which covers the main theme of Steinbeck's novel: Choice: “Don’t you see? . . . The American Standard translation... more... - Melanie Reed

Melanie: Is any of that supposed to constitute evidence of anything? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: Prove to me that you love someone. Show me some evidence. - Melanie Reed

Yeah, I saw _Contact_ too. - Eph Zero

Melanie: In fact -- and Christopher H could speak to this -- I bet it's possible to recognize romantic love in patterns of activity shown via fMRI. - Christopher A Carr

Ah, I get it now. The discussion regarding the existence of free will is just another insult to you, Melanie. It took me a few minutes to understand your presence in this thread. - Eivind

Christopher: How then did people recognize love before there was MRI? How could they be sure? There was no evidence, if evidence is only obtained from technology. Can you name anything that is self-evident? - Melanie Reed

Not at all, Elvind. I just want to make sure you have been given the opportunity to consider all the evidence. We can become "prisoners of one idea." The concept of Free Will was not originated from the scientific field. - Melanie Reed

Melanie: Having a sense of self doesn't mean that the brain is not a deterministic system. ...as to your reply to Eivind, since when are you concerned with "evidence?" - Christopher A Carr

"We hold these truths to be self-evident..." - Melanie Reed

Melanie: I suggest that if you would like to contribute to this thread, go back through and read it all in order to understand what it is that's being discussed. If you would like to talk about something else, feel free to start your own thread. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, If you want to study something that did not come from your field, I agree with the originator of this thread that it is helpful to listen to those who espouse what you are trying to gain knowledge about. There is a connective tissue, indeed, a fabric that is essential to your pursuit. - Melanie Reed

If someone said they loved me but didn't show me "evidence" of such (e.g., treating me well, showing affection, etc.), the word itself would be meaningless. In fact, it's a very vague term to begin with. What exactly do you mean by it, anyway? - Eph Zero

Wait, no need to answer that and go further off-topic. - Eph Zero

Determinism in the fundamental sense has ceased to be a viable concept with the discovery of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Determinism in the sense of predictability has ceased to be a viable concept since our understanding of deterministic chaos started happening. Dualism (aka 'genuine' free will, magic-man-done-it, or ghost in my head) has ceased to be a viable concept since... more... - Björn Brembs

Our sense of free will, the personal experience of it - much of this is usually referred to as agency - is an entirely different matter, although there is some tentative evidence that the brain functions subserving both may overlap. - Björn Brembs

@Christopher Harris You are incorrect. You don't control how you think or when you are thinking. I don't know how you understood what I said, but it's a simple fact backed by such rigorous proves as Gödel's incompleteness theorems. - Alexander Kruel

Brembs doesn't get that just by adding complexity and uncertainty you do not verify freedom :-( - Alexander Kruel

As I said above (nobody replied), endogenous processes generating behavioral variability and thus non-linearity are working-definitions. This has nothing to do with the overall physical reality of causal chains. At no point the freedom of a system, in itself or from the environment in which it is embedded, can be derived from any conclusion that was attained in reference to that... more... - Alexander Kruel

I might have to clarify what exactly I mean by 'working definitions'. Every system and its boundaries are arbitrary or biased definitions. You can extent the variables of any open system beyond its defined boundaries. Thus it is just unreasonable to talk about freedom in open systems. Endogenous actions are ultimately depend on outside factors. And talking about the freedom of a closed... more... - Alexander Kruel

Christopher: I don't know how to discuss that difference if by "genuine" free will you mean a dualistic, magical power endowed to the souls of men by God Almighty. Like Bjorn said, no scientist would argue for the kind of dualistic, supracausal free will you and Alex seem to be refering to. If however you're asking about the subjective difference between a person with free will and a... more... - Christopher Harris

As regards abulia, free-will is merely the ability to initiate a behavior? Free-will is that which exist in agents who aren't suffering from particular sorts of DDM? - Christopher A Carr

Aboulia is characterized by a lack of will, not a lack of free will. And it is not an ability to 'initiate' action. This would imply that you perceive your ability to 'initiate' action but not the initiative itself, which would mean that your thoughts are perceived as non-actions. That's where the free in free will collides with reality. We do not perceive freedom of choice, we think about options on an intellectual level and confuse ability with possiblity. - Alexander Kruel

Christopher: Something like that. Patrick Haggardd writes an excellent review of the distinct brain systems that mediate volontary and non-volontary behaviour http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... and then there's the controlled variability, the adaptivity, the intentionality and the relative independence from environmental stimuli. - Christopher Harris

What is it that does possess free will then, the entity or the 'distinct brain systems that mediate volontary and non-volontary behaviour'? That's exactly the point, relative independence from the environment is as good as no independence when it comes to freedom. It ignores the fact that we are part of the environment, an environment that includes other supposedly free agents that are... more... - Alexander Kruel

Alex: no one here argues for a free will that implies that things 'could have been otherwise' or that the causal chain stretching back to the Big Bang can be subverted. the claim here is simply that the processes by which the brain makes different decisions in the same situation can be thought of as free will. - Christopher Harris

Making different decisions in similar situations is the difference between 'mechanical' and intelligent systems. It is the difference between static systems and the flexibility of adaptive systems due to feedback and learning that allows for situational variability. I argue that it is not reasonable to use free will to describe anything physical as long as you are not willing to... more... - Alexander Kruel

Given that the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is a valid interpretation of reality, I don't think the idea of choice has been completely ruled out. The equations really do allow other events than what have already occurred. But I also realize this doesn't necessarily require free-will either. - Victor Ganata

"This universe is constantly splitting into a stupendous number of branches, all resulting from the measurementlike interactions between its myriads of components. Moreover, every quantum transition taking place on every star, in every galaxy, in every corner of the universe is splitting our local world into myriads of copies of itself." (Bryce De Witt, 1970) - Alexander Kruel

Even if that was the case. "Doing everything", or a Permutation City approach, does not account for free will. Although I guess we'll be a bit closer to something you could call freedom... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Alexander Kruel

@cristophder carr; if we grant for a moment that it is not possible to distinguish between a system with 'genuine' free will and a deterministic system whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system, why is making the difference important? If suppose that subjectively we cannot conclude either way, that is no proof in support of wither way too. So that... more... - Sandeep Gautam

@Alexender human or animal agents that are believed to have free will are not closed systems. all living beings are open systems and thus by your own admission can be free and have free will. Free will is important when thinking about agents and living things and a whole theory of mind or folk psychology module that is different from mechansistic or folk physics module has evolved in... more... - Sandeep Gautam

"Maybe the sum total of universe is not free or has a free will or a will at all; but a single organism (an open system) definetly has will, moreover will that is not tightly constrained, but relatively free and endowing with choice and control." +++ Sandeep Gautam This is a closer explication of what can be stated from other disciplines, if you will, couched in terms other than scientific ones, yet saying the same thing. In these areas it takes cross-discipline understanding, - Melanie Reed

For example take Sandeep's first posit: "Maybe the sum total of universe is not free or has a free will or a will at all;" keeping in mind the following statement allows for the exception to it "..but a single organism (an open system) definetly has will,.." This is exactly what this statement is referring to: "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose [will] that prevails." Proverbs 19:21 It allows for what Sandeep's possiblity has hit upon: a lesser will within a larger context. - Melanie Reed

@Sandeep Gautam: Huh? When have I said that? I said it doesn't matter, either way there is no free will. - Alexander Kruel

Is there no concept that a greater will can set up deterministic systems (for safety purposes) that allow for the fluidity of lesser free wills in which to act? - Melanie Reed

You're not going to get a hearing here for your "Yahweh did it" hypothesis, Melanie. - Christopher A Carr

Then with all due respect to you Christopher, you're not being very scientific. You cannot disprove it and so you must allow for it. There is a danger in not allowing for thinking and possibilities that are beyond our measure of intelligence. We will go round in circles or continue to arrive at imperfect destinations. A good scientist listens and is open to possibilities. - Melanie Reed

@Melanie Reed: Sandeep Gautam already made that point, sadly it's false. Read up on falsifiability and Occam's razor. Maybe some Wittgenstein would be good too. - Alexander Kruel

To take the analogy with open systems further, everyone knows the second law of thermodynamics that the entropy increases as time flies theorem; but that is applicable to closed systems. One cannot argue that open systems like living beings would not exist that sort of defy the entropy principle (move towards more organization) as long as they live. Living beings , that are open... more... - Sandeep Gautam

"You cannot disprove it and so you must allow for it." That is not at all correct. I can't disprove that free-will derives from an invisible pixie dust-farting homunculus in my head. Supernatural explanations are methodologically excluded... - Christopher A Carr

Alex: In Melanie's case, entertaining contrary beliefs is a slippery slope to a firey pit. ...it's the genius of the memeplex. - Christopher A Carr

@xixidiu @cristopher that is what Melaine is saying that if you cannot prove it , allow it; that is not my position. My position is that given two non-falsifiable/non-provable alternatives, believe in one that is good for everyone. - Sandeep Gautam

One can't (at least I can't) simply choose to believe the more implausible of two explanations. - Christopher A Carr

@crsitopher you are on slippery grounds here...to most of people free will is intuitive and not implausible...of course intuitiveness and folk concepts doesn't count as scientific proof,; but it is pertinent to what is plausible to believe and what is not. - Sandeep Gautam

At any rate, Christopher H's definition of free-will just sounds like "intelligence" to me. I continue to fail to see what's useful about employing a term with so much philosophical baggage. @Sandeep From whence derives this "freedom?" I can't figure that out, hence it seems implausible. - Christopher A Carr

No Christopher. I started not believing. I simply arrived (and I did not get there by one dull and morbid route) at the discovery that there was no other alternative. "I continue to fail to see what's useful about employing a term with so much philosophical baggage", Because Christopher, you are more than what you think you are. Connect the dots. They are there. - Melanie Reed

well freedom from immediate environmental influences or past learning history. room for behavior variability (bot operant behavior and conditioned behavior) - Sandeep Gautam

All interpretations of quantum mechanics describe an indeterministic universe, though. Again, this doesn't prove free-will, but arguing for a deterministic universe defies our current understanding of reality. - Victor Ganata

Victor: You aren't suggesting that the brain taps into that foundational indeterminacy via quantum computing in the microtubules? :-) - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: You're the only one here who is trying to talk about Jesus. And just making vague assertions ("you are more than what you think you are"..."connect the dots...they are there") is not even remotely persuasive. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: heh, I'll leave that to a certain renowned physicist to argue. But once you remove determinism from the discussion, I think it does become useful to examine the phenomenon of free-will. Sure, it's not the same thing as what we intuit free-will to be, and it doesn't meet the classical philosophical definitions, but there's still something there to study. - Victor Ganata

Christopher, I wasn't hoping that you would make the connection today. ;) First, the anger must go. But I think one day you will. And on that day, the click of machinery will be one of relief. - Melanie Reed

Victor: I can think of one renowned physicist/cosmologist who argues persuasively against the possibility, or perhaps that's what you meant. - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: People with agendas as constant as yours are not pleasant people to interact with, particularly when the agenda is to infect others with a memeplex as nasty as Christianity. You might as well be chasing me around with a syringe full of smallpox. - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: What do you think I'm angry at? - Christopher A Carr

I think the term "free-will" is nothing more than short-hand for an ill-defined phenomenon that we all have some vague intuition about, but which appears distinct from sentience, and perhaps even from consciousness. I think it's unnecessarily confusing to just fold it into other neurological phenomenon. As Christopher H points out, the phenomenon of volition is something that has... more... - Victor Ganata

And what of the evidence for the preparation of decisions prior to one becoming conscious of the decision? - Christopher A Carr

@Christopher yea this new free will isn't necessarily conscious, big change from the traditional version - Christopher Harris

@cristopher I concur, the new free will need not be conscious; it can , and most probably is to a large extent unconscious. - Sandeep Gautam

Christopher, I have no agenda where you (or anyone else) are/is concerned that is in the least bit as violent as your metaphor proposes. :) Quite the opposite. It is and will always be your choice to act upon it or not. I am not a virus nor is what I am telling you a virus or memplex. Indeed, if you want to pursue that thinking, you might as well turn it around and ask yourself if... more... - Melanie Reed

Melanie: Pascal's wager is bullshit. - Christopher A Carr

Consciousness seems to me a necessary condition. Without it, what does the "free" mean in "free-will?" - Christopher A Carr

I don't think the evidence that some decisions are made before your consciousness perceives them necessarily precludes free-will, though. I'd like to see them test other scenarios other than just giving a volunteer an instruction, and watching how the brain processes that instruction. - Victor Ganata

If we're thinking of the same study, it just shows that there's a lot of unconscious activity when an instruction from another person gets processed by your brain. There's no indication that the consciousness can or can't override the unconscious activity. That leaves room for another experiment. - Victor Ganata

@christopher I have already answered that. freedom from immediacy. freedom from histrory - Sandeep Gautam

After all, it at least appears we can temporarily override certain otherwise involuntary functions of the body. - Victor Ganata

Would a p-zombie have free will? - Christopher A Carr

yes, if it (p-zombie) was acting as an agent showing behavioral flexibility and variability, our minds would model it as an agent and grant it free will . It might not be conscious but is both willful and without being sentient free in the sense that its unconscious could still have chosen otherwise - Sandeep Gautam

Sandeep: Wait, one's theory of mind bequeaths to other ostensible agents free-will? - Christopher A Carr

to elaborate on p-zombie, supposing that intoxication (inhaling alcohol) makes you a p-zombie momentarily, you would still be held accountable in thtis real world as the prior decision to take alcohol was perhaps mistaken and lead to the outcome. To use analogy of Jon Haidt, if you train your unconscious (elephant) incorrectly your conscious (the rider/trainer / mahout) is also equally... more... - Sandeep Gautam

People on a black-out drunk have free-will? - Christopher A Carr

not on a black out, but supposing that their conscious is overtaken by unconscious and they cannot remember what they are doing, law and I would still hold them accountable and having free will (as they had freely decided to enter into that state) - Sandeep Gautam

Legality is a separate issue. - Christopher A Carr

to take further the case of drunkenness, a drunken person does not just react, he/.she acts by loosening of inhibitions, free rein of impulses ..and acts freely - Sandeep Gautam

Impulsivity is an increase in free-will? - Christopher A Carr

I guess free will has two parts...impulsivity contributes to freeness...freedom from history or immediacy...wilfulnness comes from ability to keep impulsivity in check. - Sandeep Gautam

ok to better rephrase it ...impulsivity - freedom from immediacy....impluses not driven by stimulus necessarily; willfulness - freedom from history- actions not governed by past operant rewards necessarily. - Sandeep Gautam

Regarding "could have," does Google Voice's speech-to-text algorithm have free-will? ...well, I guess Google Voice uses lots of statistical analysis. Suppose you have a speech-to-text algorithm that attempts to assign phonemes to acoustic data segments. If a section is ambiguous between a /p/ and a /b/, and the algorithm assigns /b/, do we say it "could have" assigned /p/? - Christopher A Carr

"could have" is not my position. counterfactuls do not prove the point of free will in my opinion. I think more of given the same conditions different responses at different times that are goal-directed, spontaneous, exhibit choice of form and timing and procedure; google algo doesn't choose when to substitute /ba/ as /pa/; whether to substitue or not and if so when to substitute and why? It doesn't pass the volition test - Sandeep Gautam

Christopher: Your last emphatic vulgarism answered your own question about anger. I may persuade with my arguments. I may plead with my heart. But getting angry undermines your stand. What is left is that marvel for something that to many appears a standard of intelligence and perception to which they must attain. You want the answer couched only in the terms which you have defined. Your stance would lock out the very thing you claim to pursue. Even Richard Feynman didn't do that. - Melanie Reed

Sandeep: I'm hearing something like Ben Goertzel's definition of intelligence. Is free-will necessary to effect "..the ability to achieve complex goals in complex environments?" - Christopher A Carr

Melanie: Feynman also thought that Pascal's Wager was bullshit. - Christopher A Carr

to take the google voice algo example further, if the algo had hidden urges that would spontaneously and in unambiguous situations too, tweak the translation so as to favor /ba/ over /da/ sometimes and /da/ over /ba/ other times, then I would grant it willfulness or some freedom (it is not constrained by the text, but can decide on its own to translate a given text to sound; if it... more... - Sandeep Gautam

We're talking sound-to-text here. Text-to-speech is becoming trivial, except for things like prosody. - Christopher A Carr

ok whatever, you get the idea... - Sandeep Gautam

basically if after hearing ba correctly, if google algo still mischeveiously decidedtro code it as p or d, I owuld grant it some freedom. - Sandeep Gautam

Melanie: "I may plead with my heart." You would be better off pleading with your information processing organ. - Christopher A Carr

actually our folk notions may be appropriate here...we do attribute intentionality to products like google voice when they consistently f**k up in a particular way...we say what an idiot that application is and grant it sort of agency and purpose. - Sandeep Gautam

Sandeep: Indeed. Humans suffer from hyperactive agency detection, Melanie being a case in point. :-) - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: You're right. I am a very poor example of a robot. I am to the depth, to the last, human. - Melanie Reed

Melanie: High levels of rationality do not make one a "robot," in the sense of the word you're using. - Christopher A Carr

Ben's definition of intelligence (on a cursory read) to me seems wide ranging ...his 'task independent pragmatic understanding of itself and the world' borders on sentience, so not surprised if he takes volition also in its stride. BTW, its 3 am in morning india, time to signoff. will continue discussion tomorrow:-) - Sandeep Gautam

Been lovely conversing with you Sandeep. Good evening. - Christopher A Carr

my pleasure too! - Sandeep Gautam

Christopher: No, they make one increasingly intolerant of the sum of what you are. You are dissatisfied. Your path to satisfaction has one route and it is always to run round in that circle. But do you plan to arrive anywhere? Or is it to find pleasure in the game of the circular? If so, I can understand that. But it still doesn't solve the problem of dissatisfaction. It is just a higher level of pleasurable distraction. - Melanie Reed

Melanie: With what do you suppose I'm dissatisfied? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: You want to know rather just believe.If you are presented with a situation requiring belief in the gap where knowledge leaves off, that makes you dissatisfied. I can understand that. We all have that. It's what we do with that space that makes all the difference in the world - Melanie Reed

"There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." <--- Why do you not believe that? - Christopher A Carr

With respect, Mohammed did not come to come to make dead people live. He did not come to die for their sins and make a way out for them so that their relationship with God could be restored to what it was. Only Jesus did this. And I am grateful for what He did. - Melanie Reed

"Only Jesus did this." No he didn't. - Christopher A Carr

Tell me, had you been born in Saudi Arabia, to what religion do you suppose you would adhere? That you are a Christian is an arbitrary matter of having been born in a predominately Christian part of the world. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: Again, with respect, it is not arbitrary. I have brothers and sisters ( in Christ) who are in Saudi Arabia, indeed, in every part of the world. I have brothers (in Christ) who grew up in SA and later through a chain of events moved elsewhere and then became Christians. - Melanie Reed

Suppose you were born in a small tribe in the Amazon basin which has yet to interact with missionaries. You think you would be Christian? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: Christ is there, too. Though some of our brothers have given their lives in that mission. Of recent note (in this century) with the Waodani tribe.One tribe member in particular killed 4 missionaries, but later became our brother. - Melanie Reed

You've no ethical qualms with destroying these cultures? None at all? - Christopher A Carr

Of course you avoided the question. - Christopher A Carr

That culture still exists, Christopher. They only difference is that they exist knowing the promise of Christ. - Melanie Reed

These cultures are surely doomed anyway, but it strikes me as a despicable that you're so happy to be the executioner. - Christopher A Carr

I agree with you that as globalization progress (through technology and big business) many cultures and lives will be uprooted. But it is not Christ who is destroying people. It is people and their greed who are doing these things to each other. - Melanie Reed

I also wanted to make clear in case there was confusion: the missionaries were attacked by the tribe and 4 were killed. The missionaries did not fight back. They allowed themselves to be killed. It was this that made an impression on the tribe member and he later became a Christian - Melanie Reed

We should move it over here so Christopher can clean up this thread: http://friendfeed.com/cacarr... - Christopher A Carr

I'd be interested to know how you would describe the reason for your participation in this discussion: 1. "I came across this debate and felt compelled to respond..." 2. "Of several competing actions/options I have deliberately chosen to respond to this thread..." 3. "I never consciously decided to take part in this debate for a special reason, it just happened / I just did..." 4. "Because of / God / made me do it..." - Alexander Kruel

@Sandeep Gautam: If you define free will as freedom from immediacy, how does one achieve this? Every stimulus must be processed immediately. You don't have the option to ignore it. To restrain an urge is as much a response to stimulus as motor output. Influence is always reciprocal. Non-actions do not exist. Besides, how many people would be happy to define free will as the unconscious... more... - Alexander Kruel

Alexander, I made an assumption that you might be addressing me since you invoked God in your question. This thread is in a "public" room. It infers general participation by that alone. The concept of Free Will, regardless of what it has come to mean or might come to mean, within the scientific discipline originated as concept with God and therefore has been the immediate concern of... more... - Melanie Reed

@Melanie Reed: Seen me arguing against your participation in this discussion? I actually agree with you in one point. It's a theological concept. Sadly some people don't get it, or try to sneak it into neuroscience. - Alexander Kruel

@Alexander Kruel My apologies for misunderstanding who your comment was aimed at. I do understand the desire to pursue the concept from the scientific discipline. Strangely, (as it might seem to some of the participants on this thread) others have wanted to look through this lens but from a different direction: this is what we know. Now how does it work from here. Curiosity is only... more... - Melanie Reed

Do you think your god possess free will given its omniscience and thus prior knowledge of its own actions? Just curious :-) - Alexander Kruel

One seemingly innocuous passage declares that "His thinking is higher" meaning that He is not constrained by the same constraints that we experience within our lesser wills of choice. But here is the kicker: He chooses to work within the constraints He asks of us. In short: he "obeys" His own moral laws but allows for a stepping outside the natural (what we perceive as scientific) law... more... - Melanie Reed

Seen that coming. You can't win a theological debate. Never mind, just trying to fathom if it is worth talking about this topic with you any further. I would, but I don't have the time. - Alexander Kruel

I wasn't debating. :) And I don't mind at all appearing foolish. I thank you for listening. - Melanie Reed

I don't mind appearing foolish either. Otherwise I wouldn't comment on such topics at all. But I have nothing to lose, contrary to some educated scientists that should know better. Anyway, if you haven't been debating, what then, preaching? I consider that as spam. - Alexander Kruel

I have told you the truth. Spam, when I began in technology, was defined as repeatedly sending the same email message to a recipients mailbox, flooding it so that nothing else could be sent out or received. Thus, it was incapacitating the recipient's ability to communicate. That hasn't happened here. That definition hasn't changed that I know of and I have been in the tech field for a... more... - Melanie Reed

It was an analogy. Unsolicited advertisement for something I'm not interested in. I wasn't writing a scientific paper and thought a lack of preciseness in my word choice would be permitted. Nevertheless, I grant you a points win on this one. P.S. I'm off for today... - Alexander Kruel

Just to clarify a few points in this meandering thread. Determinism, even macroscopically, is about as antiquated as that of what people in this thread call 'genuine' free will. Of course, anybody is entitled to their opinions, but of course anybody is free to ridicule flat-earthers, too. Free will is composed of two things. If we get too free (e.g. by drugs), we question the will. If... more... - Björn Brembs

I've had Tourette syndrome/impulse control disorder for many years during my childhood. I still suffer from other psychological disorders/problems, such as medical anxiety or having feelings/perceptions of things being venomed. I've never been able to focus myself on certain tasks. I also grew up in a very religious surrounding where people believe into libertarian free will. Thus I'm... more... - Alexander Kruel

@Xixidu not every stimulus is processed ; if that was the case we would get mad; be paralyzed analyzing the incoming stimulations. A lot of the stimulus is ignored and never reaches consciousness, so it is wrong to say every stimulus is attended to. Most are ignored and ignoring a stimulus need not be a conscious decisions; it can be an unconscious decisions. to say that ignoring a stimulus is also responding to it is clearly twisting definitions. . - Sandeep Gautam

A decision is a decision. No need to twist definitions here. If you come up with loaded and loose concepts such as free will, what do you expect? Your volition is the sum of all stimulus, internal and external, conscious and ignored. Where is the freedom? The word surely needs to have some meaning beyond the fuzziness of unpredictability? If not, why do you introduce it, what is its use in science? How does it enrich our comprehension of natural phenomena? - Alexander Kruel

why do you keep harping on unpredictability. Free will is not about unpredictability. Its not about randomness either. It si about freedom (from immediacy, from history). for eg, If I resolve not to reply to your posts in ana acrimonous manner , no matter how acrimonous you become, than though by stating it explicitly, I become highly predictable; I am still exercising my free will,... more... - Sandeep Gautam

Why are we attracted to Andromeda? Because every bit of matter attracts one another. The infinitesimals forces of nature exert their pull infinitely. I'm not arguing against libertarian free will here, although I know you believe into it. I'm arguing against the term in general. If you propose the existence of a will that is free, as implied by the combinatorial term free will, then what is the nature of will? Do people either act deliberately or genuine deliberate? Show me why you need to add free to will. - Alexander Kruel

+++ Sandeep Gautam - Melanie Reed

let me get this straight. you believe that 'will' exists but is not 'free' and we create an oxymoron by adding free; can you define what your 'will' is? - Sandeep Gautam

Because the gravity between people and the gravity between celestial bodies are not the same thing. It seems that there is a blurring between what you are saying (influenced by experience from your condition as a variable) and what Sandeep is saying. Needs sorting out - Melanie Reed

You can express gravity between people as that of emotional attraction or repulsion based on characteristics not the force between galaxies - Melanie Reed

Yes I can: My will is the unfolding of a highly complex process, a sub-system of the universe, as defined by this system itself, into actions perceived to be shaped by itself. I tried to define free will here: http://xixidu.tumblr.com/post... - Just remove free and you got my definition of 'volition'... - Alexander Kruel

ah, the western mind - Gregory Lent

Gregory, I never figured if you believe that something like free will exist or not? - Alexander Kruel

Oh no, Lent joins the thread, expect more spiritual woo woo ;) Alex, let's take a specific example. The feeding system of the snail Lymnaea contains 500 neurons in two connected ganglia, but nevertheless has rudimentary free will under this new definition. The neurons in the two ganglia generate a complicated pattern of thousands of sequential and parallel spikes, which, in the intact... more... - Christopher Harris

Let's just say I can accept free will to be defined as 'nonlinear, endogenous behavior', output over input. I now think it might be adequate after all. -- It's just really hard for me to perceive freedom 'from within'. Much of my perception is actually influenced from within, as for example that I perceive things to be dangerous for no apparent environmental cues. Or that I... more... - Alexander Kruel

no free will ... nice discussion above of what that statement could mean/imply/ ... biggest takeway from this thread is about the limits of english and its close cousin science in being able to get close to understanding subtleties of mind and consciousness. it is lacking so many necessary concepts. - Gregory Lent

Nevertheless, I think there is another problem. Although this problem matters when it comes to the new definition of free will and my definition of volition I held all along. So this is not just a critique of what you, Brembs or others propose but also of my own idea of will. Namely, of what importance is consciousness regarding volition? Can we really talk about deliberate actions without explicit awareness of what we want to do ahead of the action? - Alexander Kruel

Well, sure, even the inflexible behaviours of OCD or addiction emerge from inside the nervous system despite being in some sense un-free. The assumption there is that the normal mechanisms of will and variation have been corrupted, and this too has been studied in the molluscan feeding system http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... - Christopher Harris

Re consciousness: I think important decisions in the healthy human brain will typically be conscious, even if the mechanisms by which the contents and conclusions of consciousness are generated are only vaguely understood. This is important I think, to identify with your ENTIRE brain, not just those processes that are accessible to consciousness. People tend to get this wrong about... more... - Christopher Harris

Do people get it wrong or may they simply have a different idea of what free will is supposed to mean? Even if I agree to this new definition of free will now, being wrong before, I still doubt most people would accept that definition any time soon. - Alexander Kruel

I think people get it wrong in the same way people who reject brain-death as the proper way to determine when a person is dead are wrong. I think brain-based notions of identity will get increasingly prevalent and increasingly useful as we learn more about the brain. This will require however that there is loads of engaging, easy-to-understand-and-interact-with material available that deals with the findings of neuroscience, hence my youtube channel and website :) - Christopher Harris

If you could control your iPlant brain implant using a external computer, or use a time-based job scheduler on a external machine to execute some script, would it cease to be external and integrate with your free will/identity and thus become part of you? - Alexander Kruel

conditional rewarding brain stimulation (the main function iPlants would enable in humans) always requires an external computer to determine when a required task has been performed and deliver the rewarding electrical pulse. the question is who programs it. if the implant is used to reward behaviours that the user has chosen - behaviours he or she wants to be able to perform but which... more... - Christopher Harris

charcoal artists talking about how to draw rainbows :-) - Gregory Lent

Lent has found the way and the light, none of this search for logic and science, truth is found in the humble leaf, and in the morning wind. - Christopher Harris

ah, the qualitative makes an appearance in Mr. Harris words .. nice beginning - Gregory Lent

I try to mix the qualitative and the quantitative in my novel, check it out sometime http://www.iplant.eu/fiction... - Christopher Harris

I'm glad you have a sense of humor, Christopher. Me, not so much. Did you have something to add, Gregory? - Christopher A Carr

hello, mr carr, just drawn to the subject of the original post, enjoyed the thread, my two rupees worth is to imply that there are larger, and perhaps more accurate, understandings of these great questions available in other parts of the world, in other systems of inquiry, in other languanges. the western mind can be amusing. - Gregory Lent

For Christopher: (I'll come back to the Sapir-Whorfian Lent in a moment). This is difficult to express. Where brains generate minds that contain models of themselves that are sort of recursively referenced, the thing referenced is not the *brain*... so I continue to fail to see where there is a thing that could be described as "will" acting in a way that can be described as "free."... more... - Christopher A Carr

Mr. Lent: Are you really a strong linguistic relativist? If so, you are wrong. - Christopher A Carr

I think you might get some kind of abstract freedom once you arbitrarily define a system and can prove that the complexity of transformation by which this system shapes the outside environment, in which it is embedded, does trump the specific effectiveness of the environmental influence on the defined system. In other words, mind over matter. You are able to shape reality more effectively and goal-oriented and thus, in a way, overcome its crude influence it exerts on you. - Alexander Kruel

Alex: That's just intelligence, so far as I understand what you're on about. - Christopher A Carr

When I say "the thing referenced is not the *brain*," I mean that brains didn't evolve to solve problems in brain-habitats -- rather, brains process information in a way that organisms can accomplish procreation in the presence of trees and grass and so forth. We didn't evolve in a brain landscape. "We" don't *decide* to initiate neural activity. Neural activity initiates us... - Christopher A Carr

Yes, as far as I understood, the new definition of free will that Christopher Harris and other people are talking about here, does to a certain extent equalize free will with control and thus, I assume, intelligence. For example, children and some mentally handicapped people are not responsible in same the way as healthy adults. They can not give consent or enter into legally binding... more... - Alexander Kruel

You are right, this new definition of free will only works once you arbitrarily define a system to be an entity within an environment contrary to being the environment. Thus the neural activity, being either consciously aware and controled by the system itself, or not, is no valid argument within this framework. Of course, in a strong philosophical sense this definition fails to address... more... - Alexander Kruel

Alexander: We might be close now to being able to write this whole thread off as a semantic quibble. - Christopher A Carr

It was very interesting, nonetheless... :-) "quibble" might be not a good word as it connotes pettiness. And this discussion wasn't petty. - Christopher A Carr

if you did neuorscience research on "mind" in sanskrit, instead of english, you would do very different experiments .. five very different words for aspects of mind that the single english word clumps together .. is that relativism? dunno. i see it as an obvious limitation of "science" - Gregory Lent

Greenland natives have many, many words for snow. In no sense does that imply that english-speaking research into snow would be limited. Snow is still snow. Your mind betrays you Gregory ;-) - Nils Reinton

nils, you would never say that sentence, or have that thought, were you a native greenland speaker - Gregory Lent

Nils is from Norway, close enough I say! - Christopher Harris

Gregory, http://scottaaronson.com/blog... - "This is a mystery that could not even have been formulated within the nineteenth-century mathematical universe of Hermann Weyl." - There is some conclusiveness in what you are saying, but in reality it never comes down to the difference of popular concepts within natural languages but rather mathematical formulations. Colloquial or scientific terminology is being conceived afterwards as, for example, it happened within String theory and other modern concepts. - Alexander Kruel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Christopher Harris

Gregory. My point is that having many words for something does not mean you understand it better. I have very diverse experiences with snow, but in describing snow in a particular setting I would use adjectives or build whole sentences around the word "snow". This is similar to studying the mind - where you seek to understand the object "mind" and then describe what you learn, - not by... more... - Nils Reinton

This thread and the Asian nipple licking thread (http://ff.im/1hqgl) are the two threads I can always count on being present in my feed :) - Eivind

No mention of friendfeed, so what about writing a correspondence piece on this? It could be based on http://ff4s-paper.wikidot.com/start and perhaps also put the recent NIH grant for a "Facebook for Scientists" ( http://ff.im/beKk7 ) in perspective by providing an overview over existing tools along these lines and why they are not widely used. - Daniel Mietchen

105 more comments

http://www.cell.com/authors... / Correspondence: "The Correspondence format provides our readers with the opportunity to respond to an article in Cell—either a research article or Leading Edge article—that has been published within the last 2 months. Correspondence should be no more than 900 words in length with up to five references and should be of interest to the broad... more... - Daniel Mietchen

Now that sounds like a good idea! I'm all for it - especially mention the gazillion "facbook for scientists" already out there. - Björn Brembs

I gave it a start at http://etherpad.com/Microbl... - feel free to join in! - Daniel Mietchen

Added some stuff... - Björn Brembs

333 words so far, and once the generic FF description and some highlights from the spreadsheet are in, we will be near the limit. So probably no time to dwell on fb4sci, though I would still like to mention the NIH grant in the hope that those people will build on the ideas we lay out. - Daniel Mietchen

Maybe steer away from a "but we want to talk about friendfeed" towards more "there is a much richer set of tools out there...and here is a good example..."? Might mean the Fb4Sci stuff can get squeezed in? - Cameron Neylon

I would actually prefer the Fb4Sci stuff in there, and the article would be more balanced if we were to name a few more services that offer microblogging (I listed some in the Organization part of the document). FF can then be described in two sentences as a particularly useful example because it provides hierarchies of threaded conversations in which the most current and the most popular entries compete for the top of attention. - Daniel Mietchen

Correspondence has to be submitted within two months, so we got four weeks to go if we are to submit something on the matter. Perhaps we can indeed expand this into a general overview on the potential of web 2.0 stuff for science. To this end, I just started a vote on the "open science breakthrough of the year" at http://ff.im/cidKG . - Daniel Mietchen

thanks guys - a very interesting read (the paper, these responses, the etherpad document). I've added a couple of possibly-relevant points to the etherpad doc. :) - Allyson Lister

...bumping to remind me to try and do something about this before deadline... - Cameron Neylon

To those coordinating this: let me know if you need any extra help with anything... - Allyson Lister

Allyson, help with shortening the FF part and with adding in something on the non-FF alternatives would certainly do something good to push things forward at this stage. Thanks! - Daniel Mietchen

Edited a bit and tried to merge the new contributions into the draft. The word count for the FF part now stands at ~570 excluding FF real science examples. I still don't see how we can give an overview of more than one of these services and accomplish anything better than a boring enumeration without spirit. On the contrary, people will just get the impression that scientists can't make... more... - Björn Brembs

Correction: 660 words... :-) - Björn Brembs

See also Jean-Claude's stylesheet about FriendFeed + Science ? FFscience: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc... - Pierre Lindenbaum

Thanks, Pierre, was already mentioned. Just added some examples from this spreadsheet. Word count is now at 760. Tasks remaining (if you agree on the general structure): polishing and final, concluding paragraph. Tasks remaining if you don't agree: re-write :-) - Björn Brembs

have removed a few words, tightened things up. will do more as time permits - Allyson Lister

Getting there ... >800 words. - Björn Brembs

953, so some trimming needed. Mentioned the NIH grant in the roundup section. Which references to take? - Daniel Mietchen

Good job, Daniel! I think the references are fairly clear, most of them are in the text already (i.e., papers from FF). We have until December 30 to get it all finalized, so we have some time, but I'd rather get it there sooner than later. I think a few more runs of polishing and honing and we should get the final author list together and submit. I suggest everybody who wants to be an author leave the URL to their FFfeed at the end, that way readers get an idea of what FF looks like. - Björn Brembs

What about signing with a group pseudonym (something like D H J Polymath; http://arxiv.org/find... ) and a link to this thread or the etherpad? - Daniel Mietchen

I have inquired with them whether links count as references. - Daniel Mietchen

@Daniel as a pseudonym, I suggest to use what Deepak calls the "BioGang" http://openwetware.org/wiki... http://www.linkedin.com/groups... - Pierre Lindenbaum

What about the title? "Should you be sharing science online?" would be my favourite but it is not reflective of the current emphasis. Any suggestions? - Daniel Mietchen

Pierre - good one. Perhaps add FF as initials? - Daniel Mietchen

BTW, the doi does not resolve - anybody has the correct one? - Björn Brembs

895 words... - Björn Brembs

I like Clay's idea for a title: "It's not information overflow, it's filter failure " :) - Allyson Lister

884 words, and a few more slight tweaks. This means we could probably fit an entire sentence about other approaches' existence, if we wanted :) - Allyson Lister

Björn - http://dx.doi.org/10... . - Daniel Mietchen

@Allyson: awesome! @daniel, sorry, meant this one: http://dx.doi.org/10...) - Björn Brembs

Added ref 4: the NAR paper ( http://tinyurl.com/mr5kvm ) - Pierre Lindenbaum

Right now this sentence is a mixture of DOIs & links: which to use? : "Such conference coverage has even received direct (e.g. ISMB09 http://www.iscb.org/ismbecc..., BioSysBio09 http://dx.doi.org/10...) or indirect (e.g. ISMB08) support from the conference organizers, see e.g. http://friendfeed.com/ismbecc... ." We can convert them all to links, & save some of the 5 publications, but all three examples here have papers associated with them (well, ISMB09 paper is accepted) - Allyson Lister

Ah - actually it looks like the ref we would use for ISMB08 is actually ref 1 - am I correct? There isn't much detail in ref 1 yet. That could solve part of the problem - Allyson Lister

I'd also like to find that out, but the DOI does not resolve (for me?). Haven't looked at ref1 yet, to determine if it's redundant. - Björn Brembs

The DOI, if intact, should point to http://genomebiology.com/2009... , which is behind the paywall for me but perhaps Allyson can give us a hint ;-) - Daniel Mietchen

Sorry - yes, @Daniel, the DOI seems broken, but the genomebiology link is the correct one. If we're limited for references, we could just link to the FF room, which is http://friendfeed.com/biosysb... - Allyson Lister

We have 5 references and thus I added Allyson's to make it 5 :-) - Björn Brembs

Question as to whether its advisable to include reference to the RW room. I think someone raised this somewhere but I can't see the discussion now. - Cameron Neylon

Otherwise made a few very minor changes - Cameron Neylon

I'm about adding a ref to O'Reilly/"Beautiful Data". The collaboration for this book started here: http://friendfeed.com/fgibson... - Pierre Lindenbaum

@Cameron - yep, a few of us have brought up that point (me and michael and some others I think in the etherpad doc). I'm happy to go with whatever the owners of the room, or the general consensus, wants :) - Allyson Lister

Cameron, do you have a reference for the second grant? I am only aware of http://www.labgrab.com/users... . - Daniel Mietchen

Added mention of polymath project. - Daniel Mietchen

Found reference mentioning both grants: http://www.nih.gov/news... . - Daniel Mietchen

RW room discussion is in the header of the document. IMHO there are several crucial reasons for finally going public: it's a grey area probably still fair use; more subscribers mean more access; readers will see the usefulness of this room, even if they don't get any of the other features; the kinds of hoops we have to jump through to get access need to be made public and the room has a significant record now. - Björn Brembs

I think we need to drop ref 6 since we only have 5 and it's not a journal article, correct? - Björn Brembs

With Etherpad deleting everything by March 31, we should think of ways to archive existing pads - particularly relevant for this one, as it was meant to be citable. As far as I can tell, none of the currently available options preserves the version history, so if we want to have that, we should do a screencast. - Daniel Mietchen

Indeed, we need to think of something! - Björn Brembs

Incidentally, the threat of such services disappearing certainly contributes to the hesitation of people to adopt social networks, and the best ways I see to cope with that problem is to have either open standards on data portability, or - better still - social networks (or at least one of the most suitable ones) that are built entirely open source platforms, with open configuration (and of course data portability too). Any suggestions on whether and how this could fit into the concluding paragraph? - Daniel Mietchen

Isn't it already in there, sort of? Where we write that these tools are in development and NIH funded? - Björn Brembs from iPhone

Haven't seen mention of open source and open standards in the news on these NIH grants, so it may be worth making more clear that this is needed. - Daniel Mietchen

Interesting turn: Etherpad will remain operative until at least when they release their source code. http://etherpad.com/ep... . - Daniel Mietchen

Upon feedback from Graham, I took the RW reference out. Still think some mention of Open Source would be good. http://www.nih.gov/news... does not mention it. 816 words. - Daniel Mietchen

Can we be part of that feedback, please? I find the RW functionality so convincing for non-social web users that I fear the whole article might be wasted, i.e, preaching to the converted, without this component. - Björn Brembs

It was in a DM that I just forwarded to you (dunno whether that works), and I asked him to comment here too. - Daniel Mietchen

Did anyone manage to do a screencast? I could try and do that today if its useful? But maybe better to wait until you feel is finished? - Cameron Neylon

I think we should wait until it's basically submitted. - Björn Brembs

@Daniel: DM was blocked (private). - Björn Brembs

Nothing wrong in testing, otherwise I'd also wait till it's submitted. @Björn - sent you screenshot. - Daniel Mietchen

I'll comment once I get back form work (only have internet access here during lunch hour). - Graham Steel

Right. 1) Having consulted with Bill, we have (the same) mixed views vis a vis raising the visibility of the RW room. 2) We don't feel that we "own" the room though, it belongs to everyone who uses it. 3) We agree that a poll should be set up for subscribers of the RW room to vote on the issue of whether or not they feel it appropriate to raise visilbility of the room outwith FF. 4) The poll is http://www.micropoll.com/akira... and I'll post a link to it in the RW room shortly. - Graham Steel

Apart from inclusion of the RW room, the title has not been decided yet. Two suggestions are in there now (I threw away my older one). - Daniel Mietchen

Also, what about the "like=bookmark" discussion? I would like to see that paragraph go back in. - Daniel Mietchen

I thought that like=bookmark was clear from the context? If not, then it should be easy to add a sentence to make it explicit. - Björn Brembs

Björn - see chat bar - Michael was not comfortable with the notion. Any other opinions? Also turned Shirky quote from title to quote and set the title to "Social filtering of scientific information - a view beyond Twitter". - Daniel Mietchen

Besides, FF search has now been unusably slow for weeks, so I wonder whether we should take this formerly excellent feature off the draft. See also http://ff.im/cO3Jw . - Daniel Mietchen

Two weeks left to submit. I plan to do it on Sat (Dec 19) around noon UTC. Still to address: RW room and perhaps ephemerality of non-Open Source services like FF. I think I saw somewhere that FF have released (part of) their source code, or plan to do so. Anyone know details? - Daniel Mietchen

Added "the permanence of services whose source code is not public" as an unresolved issue. brushing welcome. What about the RW room? - Daniel Mietchen

Also, authors need to identify themselves in the document, or they will be missed. Academic affiliations and FF feeds, please! - Björn Brembs

Like the current version a lot! Also the source code permanence point was important! We should get it ready, clear authorship and author order. My suggestion is Daniel in front, me in the back and whoever feels should have a place in the middle, but I'm flexible (or does author order matter here at all?). From Bill's argument, we should leave the reference to the RW room in, but I'm also flexible there. If there are no storms of protest now, let's keep it the way it is. - Björn Brembs

I did some more brushing - 899 words now without the title (spot landing). As for authoring, I would really like to go for a group pseudonym (as explained above), but the submission process will probably ask for the usual contact information (incl. email) anyway. Order does not matter to me. Will check back in about 36h, with the intention to submit. - Daniel Mietchen

I was only pointing out that if you mention the RW room at all, you might as well name it. The poll stands at 41 votes (~25% representation, but it seems to me that there aren't many more than 41 really active contributors/users). The tally is No - 56%; Yes - 32%; Unsure - 12%. I don't think the piece loses much by deleting the mention of the RW room, and it seems to me that the users prefer to continue to keep quiet for now. - Bill Hooker

I tend to agree with Bill. It seems to me that mentioning (and in doing so effectively naming) the RW room is not what users (that cared to vote) want FULL STOP - Jan Wessnitzer from iPod

(1) The point of the letter is to attract scientists who are not using social media for their work to FF. As far as I can tell, the one single thing that everybody can profit from that doesn't already exist in mailinglists etc. is the sharing of papers. Moreover, this is also the one single aspect that touches every single reader, as nobody has access to all the literature. So while it... more... - Björn Brembs

(2) This has been mentioned before, but I see no reason why one would have any interest other than supporting closed access, in keeping quiet. The purpose of the room clearly is to 'document', so nobody in his/her right mind would think that their actions remain anonymous. This means that everybody participating must have been well aware that one day this documentation will be... more... - Björn Brembs

(3) I have now voted often enough to skew the results to more than 50% 'yes'. Who can verify that this has not occurred before, on the 'no' side? - Björn Brembs

Bjoern, I do agree with your arguments. W.r.t. (3), I was merely trying to argue that the vote should be respected (if it were representative). Allowing multiple votes clearly screwed that up beyond repair! ;) - Jan Wessnitzer

BTW, I voted 'yes' and maybe the only way to do this now is to vote openly here in the Forum! - Jan Wessnitzer

@Bjoern: "I see no reason why one would have any interest other than supporting closed access, in keeping quiet" -- are you going to pay my legal bills for me, if I get sued? That's a completely serious question. I'm one of the heaviest suppliers of papers in the room -- if anyone is targeted, I certainly will be. I have said many times that I don't think I am doing anything wrong OR... more... - Bill Hooker

@Bjoern, cont'd: I see no reason to think that (before you fucked it up :-) ) the vote was not representative, which means that most of the RW room users were less willing than you to take up arms against their closed-access oppressors. Judge that as you will, my friend, but some of us have limited resources. If even one publisher sends even one cease-and-desist letter to FriendFeed we... more... - Bill Hooker

@Bjoern, cont'd: I fucking HATE that I have to make this calculation. I would rather publish and be damned -- if the publishers do send lawyers, mount an international campaign in defense of the room and its users and bring their shitty empire crashing down around their beancounting ears. But I have my newly acquired all-American cowardice to consider: I have no health insurance and my... more... - Bill Hooker

P.S. I do not really think I can be accused of "supporting closed access"... merely of refusing to fight it to -- not my, but my family's -- last drop of cash... - Bill Hooker

Bjoern, I will add that any librarians in this room (and I am not the only one) may have a professional interest in keeping mum. We are pathologically helpful folk, so it's hard to resist sending papers -- but we also belong to a profession that looks incredibly askance at even a HINT of copyright-related impropriety. Are you willing to lose me my job over this? Like Bill's, completely serious question. Remember also that my job is intimately OA-related. - D0r0th34

I cannot sit here and say nothing in light of recent input. I'll be brief simply by saying, 'as Bill and D0r0th34 say(s)'. I too am not willing to put my livelyhood on the line over this (single) issue. All my (OA) eggs in one basket re. this one? I think not. - Graham Steel

Just a couple of points. (1) I'd assumed that most or all contributors voted in good faith, i.e. once, on this issue. (2) Having read through the draft at etherpad, I think it reads as a good summary of the utility of FF, with or without the mention of RW room (which is only one small paragraph). Is this one aspect really so important, really such a major component of the FF science experience? I think our interactions and discussions are much more important and interesting. - Neil Saunders

IMHO, the 'no' voters here are blowing the matter way out of proportion. I'll try and put it back into proportion, which may or may not work :-) - Björn Brembs

@Neil: Good point. I think it may not be all that much of FF for us, but for people not using social media for their work, it may well be *the only* useful thing they can see in this article. That's one of the reasons I'm fighting for it to remain in the letter. I agree, for anybody who is already using this technology, the RW room may only be a minor benefit, compared to the rest of the features. - Björn Brembs

To all those who "are not willing to put their livelihoods on the line": what part of "document" did you not understand when you signed up? Bill used the right description for this kind of behavior: cowardice. But if you really think our little room of 40 scientists with inadequate access to scientific literature will wake a sleeping giant, I have several additional accurate descriptions. - Björn Brembs

(1) Delusion. If you really think someone like Elsevier is risking their 800 millions annual profit in tax payer money by going after people who can barely support themselves, you must be deluded. The music industry doesn't have any profits left to lose, but publishers do. They wouldn't be making record profits during the worst financial crisis in 80 years if they really were so stupid to go after us. - Björn Brembs

(2) Stockholm syndrome. How many salaries and healthcare plans could you pay from 800 million each year from Elsevier alone? Basically, these guys take your salary and your healthcare and then hold you ransom to shut up and keep your head down - and in response you have nothing better to do than to defend that behavior and cozy up with your captors? You must be the only ones who can see any shred of sanity in such behavior. - Björn Brembs

(3) Hypocrisy. Isn't it hypocritical to oppose a regime on the surface but then support it when real action needs to be taken? Isn't it ironic that a German is arguing for and volunteering to putting your actions where your mouth is and Americans are arguing in favor of personal safety long before any hint of a serious threat is even perceivable? - Björn Brembs

(4) Paranoia. There is no precedence of any publisher going after individuals. Publishers have much more to lose than we. Thus, the only potential threat is purely in your minds. There isn't even the slightest hint of any hazard for any one of us on the horizon, yet you defend yourselves against imaginary future actions of your oppressors. More than any of the above, this paranoia... more... - Björn Brembs

(5) Documentation. This thread, more than any number of exchanged papers documents how bad corporate publishers are for the scientific community. Their stranglehold on the community stifles freedom and liberty, intimidates all community members to the point that they delude themselves, develop paranoia and act hypocritically. I think this thread documents more than anything else in this... more... - Björn Brembs

(6) Anticipatory obedience. It is a well-known consequence of dictatorships around the world that individuals in these dictatorships support the dictator even if there is no explicit force, merely because they imagine some bad consequence for themselves or their family if they wouldn't support the dictator. In Germany, every child is raised with what the term 'anticipatory obedience' means. We are being taught how it works to stop all potential threats to democracy at the roots. - Björn Brembs

1) Elsevier has lawyers on retainer, sending a take down letter costs them very little and makes a point - compare to RIAA - how many college students did they take to court? they are actually legally in their right so you would lose without even a trial 4) it's not paranoia if they really are after you. There is a precedence - in the OSTP letters someone complained about ACM going after a Taiwanese grad student - Christina Pikas

Björn, don't take this for more than the friendly advice that it is: I don't think it will win over many people in a debate (or win you many friends) to accuse those who are not willing to publicly encourage illegal activities of suffering from delusions, Stockholm syndrome, hypocrisy, and paranoia. - Lars Juhl Jensen

Bjorn, you have lost my respect. I am blocking you and leaving this room. My email is findable if you care to apologize. - D0r0th34

Re-reading my posts from this morning, it seems indeed I may have over-exaggerated my points a bit too far. It was and still is my purpose to rouse people and ruffle some feathers on a topic which to me is the worst side of my job. In my frustration that even people who I thought were on my side don't dare to leave their comfort zone for something I find so important, I may have gone a... more... - Björn Brembs

Hadn't voted earlier, but vote now for the references to RW to be included in the article. (nice commentary/response BTW) . RW room is one great thing that you guys are doing and should be proud of. People like me who have no access to any scientific literature (that OA or PNAS or some other because of my country of origination (india) ) are able to do science because of that support;... more... - Sandeep Gautam

I am basically offline now and thus postpone submission until Dec 22. Hope to be able to comment in more detail tomorrow night. - Daniel Mietchen

@Bjoern: I do understand your position, and I cannot disagree with a lot of what you say. But this is my point of view when I step back a little. 1) the number of subscribers to the room cannot claim to represent the sceintific community (they may or may not be representative, but the claim cannot be made based on the numbers). Nor do I think it can claim to represent the scientific... more... - Kubke

@Kubke: Indeed, very measured words. Last night I've also come to the conclusion that apparently, the situation is not bad enough, yet, for people to seriously push for change. It first has to become a lot worse, before it will get better, I totally agree. - Björn Brembs

I just rephrased the critical section (lines 45-47). further brushing welcome. - Daniel Mietchen

That letter looks great! Kudos to all of you! - Kubke

Sorry, won't make it today. Next online time scheduled for 27, just in time. - Daniel Mietchen

Is there a precedent for the journal reviewing a manuscript paying for reviewers to access subscription-only articles at other journals, or, heaven forbid, for reviewers to pay for access themselves? Or is it that reviewers check references so rarely that it just isn't an issue? When they do happen to come across one they don't have access to, do they just go "meh" and move on? - Shirley Wu

14 more comments

Also, I suspect that since many reviewers are well-ensconced in the cozy surroundings of their institutional subscriptions, this occurs much much much less often for them than it would for a reviewer like me, who is not in academia... - Shirley Wu

Despite my academia-level access, I frequently find myself unable to read references I want while reviewing. If they are essential to my understanding or my argument, I post to the RW room; if that fails I note in my review that I think [cite] is important but I was unable to access it. I suspect that most reviewers go with "meh" though... - Bill Hooker

Thanks, Bill, those are good alternatives to going "meh" ;). - Shirley Wu from twhirl

JMB give 30 day access to a large range of literature to their referees via a temporary account on Scopus. - Iddo Friedberg from Android

Kudos to JMB -- I'm surprised, because that is tacit acknowledgement that there's an access problem, which is something that most publishers deny. - Bill Hooker

Reviewing for cross disciplinary journals can require access to many different journals. As Bill H notes, academia access is no guarantee of access. - Bill Anderson from twhirl

Though it involves paying $$ -- Deep Dyve is what I've been recommending to health providers not associated with academic institutions. At $19.99/mo for unlimited access, it's not a bad price, though the site's received some negative reviews for its search engine. I haven't given it a try, though, so don't know how specific one needs to be to get to a precise article. This testing is on the list for the new year! - Mickey Schafer

Just for fun, I ran "autism prosody" at Deep Dyve, and although the citation count was absurdly high, the first dozen or so articles are the same ones that come up in gopubmed or novoseek. A few articles were freely available. - Mickey Schafer

I recently ran into this in a serious way reviewing facility proposals for a well known synchrotron. Some stuff out of my field and I really just wanted to check whether what was being proposed was novel. But I had no way to do that because I couldn't access the relevant literature. - Cameron Neylon

Putting in author's name in the advanced filter worked to pull up a single article. It appears that it has to be last name, first name/initial, though there are no immediate instructions for that. In any case, may work for fast retrieval of an individual item for the purposes of checking sources (as opposed to downloading them). Don't know if they have a library or folder system which would be particularly useful for organizations. - Mickey Schafer

Deep Dyve does have a bookmarking function -- didn't see that until I went to the sign up page. I realize this is not ideal OA by any means, but again, for non-academic practitioners, having a "rental" service is a good solution with significant cost savings compared to individual subscriptions to something like MD Consult. - Mickey Schafer

see also: http://omicsomics.blogspot.com/2009... - pq: "I've been frustrated on more than one occasion whilst reviewing a paper that I couldn't access their supplementary data, and have certainly encountered this as a reader as well. I've sometimes meekly protested as a reviewer; in the future I resolve to consider this automatic grounds for "needs major revision"." via: http://friendfeed.com/mndoci... - Bill Hooker

Paper access for a reviewer is indeed a problem! I have to admit, I often just go 'meh' and do a second-rate job, simply to save time. Which is just one of many reasons why for me the status quo of scientific publishing is the worst part of my job. - Björn Brembs from iPhone

Meh myself. By the time I put the paperwork in for interlibrary loan, it is activated, payment from my grant is approved, and the rest of the madness the deadline for the review would be way past gone. - Kubke

Nice, I didn't notice the discussion here had expanded until Bill reshared. @Iddo, does JMB automatically provide instructions for the temporary Scopus account or do they wait for the reviewer to come to them with the problem? Still although there are workarounds like this, a lot of these solutions probably don't work too well with the modus operandi of most scientists... namely,... more... - Shirley Wu

Excellent, this is a much better approach than an author ID system... - Greg Tyrelle

2 more comments

Thought I'd seen it before: http://archive.nodalpoint.org/2006... - Greg Tyrelle

@Greg I guess you need both systems (author ID + disambiguation). Hopefully they can meet somewhere in the middle? Not read this paper yet, but it looks interesting... - Duncan Hull

2% false negatives is not nearly good enough on its own. It would be a great way to pre-populate an author ID system and then finish it off by hand, though. - Björn Brembs

Hmm, good point. There may even be some Atlantic divide in this. Not necessarily wrt social media, but wrt interest outside one's own field. Moreover, I'd speculate that there also is an age gap: as you get older, you feel confident enough also to look outside of your own field, because you've learned enough so your own field doesn't require all of your capacities any more. - Björn Brembs

it would surely be just an estimate, but the error because of the data set may not be higher than the general error on impact factors... (which is an interesting question in itself...) - Egon Willighagen

5 more comments

I don't understand the point. Journal-level metrics are obsolete. - Björn Brembs

@Björn: the context is this question on the Blue Obelisk Exchange: http://blueobelisk.stackexchange.com/questio... - Egon Willighagen

I don't mind about the actual metric used, but automating generation of such lists would be nice... - Egon Willighagen

@Björn: I am very much open to suggestions from your side! - Egon Willighagen

As I mentioned on Twitter, Mendeley does generate article and journal-level usage stats, on a daily basis. This data will be available via API, as well, starting soon. Let me know if you'd like to know more about this. - Mr. Gunn

@Mr Gunn... yes, such an API would be perfect. I'd like to hear more about that... - Egon Willighagen

"The Life Scientists" group on Friendfeed :) - Andrew Perry

+1 Andrew! - Björn Brembs

Well that's a given... ;) Any others that you use? If not, any that you'd _like_ to use? For example, I've wanted to use NCBI resources in a seminar/meeting before, but the interface right now is pretty poor on my blackberry. - Andrew Su

Andrew, you need a phone with a proper browser :) http://flashingneurons.deepaks... - Deepak Singh

You are at a concert? I am deeply envious. - Bill Hooker

3 more comments

Yup, best Xmas carols I've ever shouted :-) - Björn Brembs from iPhone

Du Hast! - Marcos de Carvalho

Awesome show, ten thousand people, fantastic performance. These guys are outstanding! If you ever get a chance of seeing them, don't miss it. - Björn Brembs

Saw them in '96 and one of the most memorable shows I have seen! - Jan Wessnitzer from iPod

Conference proceedings : ... Annual International Conference of the IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society. IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society. Conference, Vol. 1 (2009), pp. 2212-2215. In the last few years, many studies in the cognitive and system neuroscience found that a consistent network of brain regions, referred to as the default network, showed high levels of activity when no explicit task was performed. Some scientists believed that the resting state activity might reflect some neural functions that consolidate the past, stabilize brain ensembles and prepare us for the future. Here, we modeled default network as undirected weighted graph and then used graph theory to investigate the topological properties of the default network of the two groups of people with different intelligence levels. We found that, in both groups, the posterior cingulate cortex showed the greatest degree in comparison to the other brain regions in the default network, and that... - Björn Brembs

Also, psychological causality as revealed in our labs is arguably never deterministic. Our studies show a change in the odds of one response over another. But changes in the odds entail that more than one response was possible. Our entire statistical enterprise is built on the idea of multiple possibilities. Determinism denies the reality of this. Statistics are just ways of coping with our ignorance, to a determinist - statistics do not reflect how reality actually works. - Sandeep Gautam from Bookmarklet

6 more comments

Determinism has been dead since Heisenberg. - Björn Brembs

Björn: I'm not sure that's relevant at macroorganismic scales, short of the brain doing quantum computing. But perhaps I'm wrong. - Christopher A Carr

Every single ion channel is a quantum object and as such it is very conceivable that quantum effects in these molecules can amplify to behavioral differences. Moreover, there is good evidence that some decision-making circuits are being held at a delicate equilibrium precisely to enable the sort of 'free' choice that minuscule disturbances offer. But in brain science, one need not... more... - Björn Brembs

Better read the follow ups: Forget free will and get on with empirical psychology. - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... / Free will is not a question for science. - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... - Alexander Kruel

Oh and the uncertainty principle does not equal non-determinism. Also take radioactive decay, on average, it is predictable. QM is always the last resort to hide if you want to defend your woo but sadly never stands up to the claims. - Alexander Kruel

Alex: QM has certainly become the handwavium of choice... - Christopher A Carr

Uncomputable Numbers and Determinism - "If the universe is a machine where the future is uniquely determined by its present state, it would not be possible to calculate what the future will be." http://lamp.tu-graz.ac.at/~hadley... - Alexander Kruel

PQ:"The new digital era presents both a challenge and an opportunity for all science communication. New ways of communicating using social network platforms that fall into the category of Web 2.0 (for example, Facebook and YouTube) have flourished in recent years. [...] Although these digital tools open up new and creative ways of communicating neuroscience directly and interactively to the public (Table 1), their advantages and limitations have not been fully explored. In particular, it is not yet clear how neuroscientists are adjusting to the diverse new forms of media. Should neuroscientists be paying attention to these new tools? To reach today's generation on a global scale, it would seem that the answer to this question is yes." - Björn Brembs

mouse over me for email address - Bill Hooker

10 more comments

No access for me, sorry :-( - Mr. Gunn

Not for me either :-( - Björn Brembs

Neither :( - Kubke

Sorry, can't access anything from Karger... - Graham Steel

Falls into my "wilfully obscure, deserves to die" category :-) - Neil Saunders

Thanks for trying, y'all. - Bill Hooker

Wow! I'm in a Max Planck Institute right now and even here I can't get it! - Björn Brembs

But hey, no need for those damn socialist OA journals, the Free Market already provides all necessary access... - Bill Hooker

oi! we're COMMIES, I'll have you know! ;) - D0r0th34

Sent. - Torfinn Nome

Thank you! - Bill Hooker

Microscopy Research and Technique, Vol. 71, No. 11. (2008), pp. 778-786. By providing two examples, the option for embedding 3D models in electronic versions of life science publications is presented. These examples, presumably representing the first such models published, are developmental stages of an evertebrate (Patella caerulea, Mollusca) and a vertebrate species (Psetta maxima, Teleostei) obtained from histological section series reconstruction processed with the software package Amira. These surface rendering models are particularly suitable for a PDF file because they can easily be transformed to a file format required and components may be conveniently combined and hierarchically arranged. All methodological steps starting from specimen preparation until embedding of resulting models in PDF files with emphasis on conversion of Amira data to the appropriate 3D file format are explained. Usability of 3D models in PDF documents is exemplified and advantages over 2D illustrations... - Björn Brembs

7 more comments

Awesome 3D models, rotatable, zoomable, everything within a PDF with no extra plug-ins! Amazing! - Björn Brembs

I think they should have mentioned some Open Source alternatives to Amira/Adobe, my favourites being http://rsbweb.nih.gov/ij/ and http://www.ctan.org/tex-arc... . For the fossil part, see also http://www.virtualpalaeo.org/ (summary in http://newsletter.palass-pubs.org/pdf... ). - Daniel Mietchen

+1 Björn - this is a most impressive piece of work !! @Daniel, I'll check those links out tomorrow. - Graham Steel

Now I need to find out how to get the 3D model of our experimental setup into our PDFs! - Björn Brembs

Daniel: how is imagej used to embed 3d models? - Mike Chelen

imagej produces the 3D models, animate the embedding. - Daniel Mietchen

That is a great link Bjorn. My student has been producing similar models of brain/brain regions that are extremely useful since one can rotate the brain, remove regions, or "slice" it at different angles (great when trying to interpret histology and also to calculate stereotaxic approaches for electrophysiology). But it never occured to me he could publish the dynamic pdf. - Kubke

Does anyone know if Osirix can do the pdf trick? http://www.osirix-viewer.com/index... - Kubke

(via pedrobeltrao) A proposed author ID system is gaining widespread support, and could help lay the foundation for an academic-reward system less heavily tied to publications and citations. - Pierre Lindenbaum

4 more comments

It's like Copenhagen. Proposals, counter-proposals, trying to get agreement. What next, a walk-out? - Neil Saunders

I already walked-out of this one! - Paulo Nuin

Great start! Pullquote: "In his classic book Management Teams, UK psychologist Meredith Belbin used extensive empirical evidence to argue that effective teams require members who can cover nine key roles. These roles range from the creative 'plants' who generate novel ideas, to the disciplined 'implementers' who turn plans into action and the big-picture 'coordinators' who keep everyone... more... - Björn Brembs

The dude's gettin' it: "This kind of 'microattribution' could ultimately make it possible for each researcher to have a constantly updated 'digital curriculum vitae' providing a picture of his or her contributions to science going far beyond the simple publication list." - Björn Brembs

Fantastic article! Finally: "But perhaps the largest challenge will be cultural. Whether ORCID or some other author ID system becomes the accepted standard, the new metrics made possible will need to be taken seriously by everyone involved in the academic-reward system — funding agencies, university administrations, and promotion and tenure committees. Every role in science should be recognized and rewarded, not just those that produce high-profile publications." - Björn Brembs

Ugh. Poor bastard. I hope he gets some help. - Bill Hooker

A disturbed bloke. Also, he might benefit from some lessons in how to write English language. - Jo Young

I get emails like that from him about once a week or so. They average about 18 pages when pasted into MS Word... - Björn Brembs

I'm hoping people in the room will take live notes...don't think I can simultaneously stream audio safely - Cameron Neylon

Confidently predicting I'll be of little help at the appointed time, but for future information - how does one search wave? I've not had any success with the little 'searches' down arrow. Mind you my successes on wave generally aren't much to write home about. - Jo Brodie

Seem to have worked it out... I was doing it wrong ;-) - Jo Brodie

Was there, wave was full and very slow - but it seemed people there really enjoyed it! Cool! - Björn Brembs

Really enjoyable experience though slightly disappointed about the rss feed demo - sounded like there were some difficulties. - Dan Hagon

The demo partly failed because I didn't press the final upload button on the phone. Entirely my own fault. Will have to figure out why the robot doesn't like other rss feeds though - Cameron Neylon from Android

Poll is here:- http://www.micropoll.com/akira... Thank you in advance. - Graham Steel

39 more comments

Just to expand briefly on Graham's intro: I think the RW room is covered by Fair Use (nota bene, ianal). Nonetheless, the likely result of any legal challenge by publishers would be that FF would shut the room down as a precaution, and we'd have to fight to re-open it. I doubt we have the resources for that fight, so as a matter of realpolitik I'm voting to continue to fly under the... more... - Bill Hooker

^^What Bill said. Yes, the world absolutely needs access to the scientific literature, but we need to work to reform the publishing process and the laws. All things considered, this is a very small room, which is why it hasn't attracted the ire of the publishers. If we advertise and it gets large, the industry will start playing the same whack-a-mole lawsuit game that they do with music or movie sites. - Chris Miller

I voted "No" - Pierre Lindenbaum

Please keep voting folks. A dozen in so far, thanks. - Graham Steel

The referenced thread is about a letter to the journal Cell in which we promote FriendFeed. The RW room will be the single most attractive feature for people who have never used social media. I also think it helps to show a large readership what kinds of hoops we will jump through to get access - and the RW has a great record of people not having access. So in the end, all publicity... more... - Björn Brembs

I'd love to read that Cell paper if possible! http://is.gd/5fQ0D I voted 'unsure' on the poll, perhaps not very helpful, but I thought that my 'yes' might not be as strong as the poll's yes might be demanding. I would like more people to be aware of this helpful service, but to hear of it as word of mouth rather than a 'one to many' broadcast in a journal article. I suppose I'm voting for the status quo (of this room), but with gradual increases in numbers. #fencesitting ;) - Jo Brodie

I would be more concerned about publishers cutting off access to individuals known to be supplying papers in the room for breech of TOS. It has happened to one of our researchers but for other reasons. - suelibrarian from iPhone

Here is the draft of the letter: http://etherpad.com/Microbl... Note that we do not need to spell out the name of the room in the letter, as we do now, just the functionality. I can only re-word my argument from above: cowering before the possible reprisals of 'big publishers' is definitely not the best way to change the current publishing model. In fact, anybody who... more... - Björn Brembs

I voted no. As I see it, the role of RW is to provide a service, not to instigate a revolution or provide a soapbox for change in the publishing industry. I don't think it's fair to create the potential for unpleasant repercussions through wider publicity for a "cause", certainly not without the full knowledge and agreement of everyone who has ever used the room. - Neil Saunders

@Bjoern, it's not "no big deal" to open another room -- that simply won't work, corporate copyright lawyers are quite good at whack-a-mole and we cannot expect FriendFeed to fight our Death To Toll Access battle with us. As I said above, the fight you are spoiling for is worth having, but I don't want to pick it and then get my ass kicked. If you really want people to fight, you'll need... more... - Bill Hooker

The purpose of the room is explicitly "to document the harm caused by closed/toll-access publication". What's the purpose of collecting this data if we're not going to publish it? Voted yes, apparently against the consensus, whose arguments I'm sympathetic to, but it seems to me like even if we did mention the RW room in a letter it would still only have visibility to a quite small audience. Perhaps the poll choices should have been "yes, publish the RW room/No, don't publish yet"? - Mr. Gunn

28 votes so far, with "no" currently in the lead. - Bill Hooker

What about mentioning the functionality but not the room? If we include a link to the etherpad in which the letter has been prepared, interested people would find the information. - Daniel Mietchen

A few thoughts. 1) It is possible to vote multiple times, I noticed. 2) @Neil: as Mr. Gunn pointed out, the explicit purpose of the room is to document, not to provide a service. What's the point to document, when the document remains secret? 3) @Bill: point taken. However, the mere fact of multi-billion dollar corporations (who, unlike the RIAA, make their money from tax-dollars!!)... more... - Björn Brembs

Also unlike the music industry, the three major publishers have had increasing profits for at least the last five years, with 2008 (of all years!) being a record year with double-digit growth rates for some and a total of almost 5 billion dollars in profits for the three largest corporations alone - and that when other large publishing businesses seem not to have such a great time... more... - Björn Brembs

Couple things. 1) researchers are not the only people here; publishers have shown no compunction in going after librarians. 2) in the library literature, it's fairly well-established that researchers are asking other researchers for copies of articles, rather than (sometimes in addition to) going through ILL and document-delivery services. - D0r0th34

I don't know if this has been studied, but the reasons for that, D0r0th34, have to do with the overhead. To ask a colleague, all you have to do is send them an email. ILL requires forms and accounts and waiting periods and follow-up and so on. - Mr. Gunn

yes, that's the usual reason given :) - D0r0th34

Procedural suggestion - I don't use the RW room for reasons I can go into elsewhere but I voted I don't know because I didn't. I actually take Bjorn's point though - what is the point if it doesn't change things? Anyway the suggestion - rather than people posting that they've sent stuff I suggest people post when they receive a copy. It would even be possible to set up a dead letter... more... - Cameron Neylon

I am behind Bjørn on this, I voted yes and at the time the yes -side was winning. In my opinion, this is a fight worth taking and if that happens, worth loosing. - Nils Reinton

+1 Neil and +1 Cameron. A simple change in the etiquette of the room would protect those sending papers from liability. To fully protect them, though, you'd also have to scrub the archives, something that isn't easy to do on the internet. - Chris Miller

Changing the etiquette in that way is a tacit admission that we are doing something wrong, OR that we are doing something we don't believe is either wrong or illegal but that we fully expect we could be punished for anyway (because the system is unjust). If we are going to fight the good fight as above, we would be better off not handing our opponents the opportunity to argue for the... more... - Bill Hooker

I'll admit to not following the 'fair use' argument very closely, but I'm under the impression that sharing such articles is a clear violation of an institution's TOS with the publisher. I'll readily agree that something can be just but illegal, but that doesn't change the fact that there could be repercussions against those providing articles. Every movement needs its zealots, but I'm more of a casual supporter, and certainly am not willing to go down for the cause. I suspect there are many others like me. - Chris Miller

Chris, it does appear that our use of References Wanted falls under fair use as I figure it: http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC... - Mr. Gunn

Yes, I also think it is fair use, though I am aware that just the suspicion of this not being the case may be enough to shut down the room. Besides, we have Harvard law professor Lawrence Lessig on our sides: http://ff.im/9xiRN . - Daniel Mietchen

Chris's point is a good one - fair use is one thing but its definitely a technical violation of most TOS. On the other hand its not clear that library users sign up to the TOS, the librarians do, which takes us back to Dorothea's point. I take Bill's point though. If you think its a fight worth fighting then it should be done out in the open. The question is both strategic and tactical.... more... - Cameron Neylon

A very kind person sent me a copy of the letter to Cell - unfortunately it was picked up by my mail system's quarantine and instead of rerouteing it safely to my inbox I have to admit I pressed the wrong button and deleted it. Might I trouble them to resend it to me? http://is.gd/5fQ0D <embarassed> - Jo Brodie

http://friendfeed-media.com/50c126f... - Björn Brembs

Given that you can vote multiple times and only 40 votes have been cast, does that mean that about 75% of the subscribers to this room don't care enough to vote? - Björn Brembs

well, you have to figure on some attention attrition, there -- I have a lot of FFeeps who don't seem to actually use the service - D0r0th34

Jo, in case it wasn't clear -- that link from Bjoern goes to the Cell letter. - Bill Hooker

@Björn, that was only the second online poll that I've created and realised shortly after creating it that there _might_ be a potential issue with multiple votes. Can't drill the stats so will have to work on trust. Many of the subscribers to RW don't frequent that often in terms of posting, so I think it's unlikely that the "n" of 40 on the poll is likely to increase much further than as it stands. Moving forward, I guess we'll have to rely on the stats of 57% no 30% yes and 13% unsure. - Graham Steel

Sorry for just posting the link, was in a hurry! - Björn Brembs

@Graham: The question now is, what do we do with the poll? I don't think it really tells us all that much. Moreover, I think none of the arguments for publishing have seen any serious refutation. On the other hand, I don't want to dismiss the counter arguments completely. I suggest we go ahead and describe the functionality without mentioning the room name, even though I think it would be much more effective to mention it explicitly. Any comments/suggestions? - Björn Brembs

I for one agree with that suggestion. What do others think... - Graham Steel

I voted to mention the name but since the majority of votes are against I think Bjorn s suggestion is a good balance. - Pedro Beltrao

+1 Pedro - Nils Reinton

Presumably the letter's authors will give links to their FF accounts, then it's just a matter of scrolling through their posts until, aha!, "Refs Wanted" must be the room they were talking about. So is there really much difference between describing and naming the room? - Bill Hooker

@Bill: You're right, of course, in that it is more a token of appreciation of the other arguments than an effective step towards concealing the room. Alas, it is the only 'middle ground' I could think of. - Björn Brembs

Thank you Björn and Bill :) - Jo Brodie

J. Neurosci. In J. Neurosci., Vol. 29, No. 49. (9 December 2009), pp. 15595-15600. Spontaneous neuronal activity is a ubiquitous feature of cortex. Its spatiotemporal organization reflects past input and modulates future network output. Here we study whether a particular type of spontaneous activity is generated by a network that is optimized for input processing. Neuronal avalanches are a type of spontaneous activity observed in superficial cortical layers in vitro and in vivo with statistical properties expected from a network operating at "criticality." Theory predicts that criticality and, therefore, neuronal avalanches are optimal for input processing, but until now, this has not been tested in experiments. Here, we use cortex slice cultures grown on planar microelectrode arrays to demonstrate that cortical networks that generate neuronal avalanches benefit from a maximized dynamic range, i.e., the ability to respond to the greatest range of stimuli. By changing the ratio of... - Björn Brembs

No luck here, but Jesus Gawd Almighty what have they done to the Tulane library interface! - Mr. Gunn

Can't get it... - Björn Brembs

Got it! - Jan Wessnitzer

Reached me fine, thanks! - Daniel Mietchen

"CrossRef is pleased to announce that it will be participating in the recently launched Open Researcher and Contributor ID (ORCID) initiative to create an unambiguous identifier for scholarly and professional researchers. Our members will be aware that CrossRef has been exploring the possibility of creating an “author DOI” or “contributor ID” system. In doing so, it has become clear that the issues and use-cases involved in identifying researchers span a broad collection of stakeholders including libraries, institutions, funders, publishers and, of course researchers themselves. In short, this is not primarily “a publisher problem.” As such, we believe that the ORCID approach to creating an inclusive and open organization representing all the stakeholders in the scholarly communications process represents the best chance of creating a successful contributor identification system" - 'Mummi' Thorisson

8 more comments

Absolutely fantastic news on the researcher/contributor ID front! - 'Mummi' Thorisson

For those who are new to the topic, this has has been discussed extensively on FF before and elsewhere. Couple of links which may be helpful for background reading: A specialist OpenID service to provide unique researcher IDs? http://ff.im/GbM8 http://blog.openwetware.org/science... http://network.nature.com/people... - 'Mummi' Thorisson

Finally, it was about time! Good. - Björn Brembs

Am I allowed to be amused that we're IDing orcs? Many logos suggest themselves... - D0r0th34

But of course, D0r0th34! what else could this possibly be about!! !? :) [BTW apologies to fellow FriendFeeders who are not also Tolkien-fans and do not find this amusing at all.. ] - 'Mummi' Thorisson

Mmmkay, so now we have ORCID. Where do I sign up and claim my papers? - Björn Brembs

+1 D0r0th34 Maybe if you're lucky, they'll figure out a way to offload most of the workload to librarians ;-) - Mr. Gunn

Funny thing about that. I spent a lot of last week fixing initial-only names in the repo. - D0r0th34

+1 Björn, except I'm not so eager to sign up if it means letting people know that I'm an orc. :-) - Ruchira S. Datta

I think you're underemphasizing some cultural factors: namely, it is FAR more socially acceptable for men to abandon their children 12h/day than it is for women. Likewise, it is FAR more socially acceptable for women to say "I'm giving up on [career] to have kids" than for men. My personal opinion is that until men step up to a fair share of childcare, nothing changes. - D0r0th34

15 more comments

I agree with D0r0th34. Plus, it seems to me that there is something wrong with a career/professional culture that requires these work hours. Perhaps if more people were hired to work in the lab, it wouldn't be necessary for others to take on these work loads. - Katy S

also, "biological drive"? puh-LEEZ, says this no-kids-nuh-uh-not-ever woman. - D0r0th34

This is cultural rather than biological. US and UK are very very poor examples for women in science from what I have gathered so far. I would prefer to see statistics from somewhere like Sweden, which appears to have much more civilised maternity/paternity regulations. - Anna Croft

There's plenty statistics on this, no time right now to look it up, but there are norwegian studies. On the post-doc level I believe we are closing in on 50/50 share between men and women. Maternity leave and social benefits when you have small children do make a difference. That said, I believe that the distribution is skewed towards men when it comes to tenured positions also in scandinavian countries. - Nils Reinton

@D: I try not to emphasize neither biology nor culture. As a neurogeneticist, I find the dichotomy to be useless anyway - which I try to allude to in brackets. Social acceptance is certainly part of the mix. - Björn Brembs

@Katy: I think this is at the core of the issue: where do these long hours come from? Personally, every morning I look forward to coming to the lab and in the evening, I've organized events (sports, social) simply to have a deadline by which I MUST leave the lab. A quote from our prof emeritus here springs to mind: "When I married, I lost my Sundays in the lab. When our first child was... more... - Björn Brembs

@Anna: Of course, childcare is an issue in many cases, no doubt. However, I'm asking myself (as the issue will come up next year): how do I fit a 12-13h workday with a child that will be awake for (at least for some years) less than that time. If I have a child, I'd like to raise it and educate it at least for some of the time and not delegate that to 100% to strangers. Why have a child... more... - Björn Brembs

It might be interesting to look at what arguments emerge from looking at career path figures on men in science who do not raise children (or do any other daily care work for others alongside their jobs) compared to women in science who don't, either. - Claudia Koltzenburg

when they had me, my parents both took a year off, first mum then dad, before doing the daycare thing. that's what I plan to do. @Bjorn I think on average mothers probably do want to spend more time with their baby than fathers, but I doubt the effect is substantial or general. as Nils says, Scandinavian countries are closer to 50/50 thanks to a different culture re ma/paternity leave (though it's far from equal, and maybe it never will be, but i doubt there's any harm in trying). - Christopher Harris

@Björn I could make a number of comments to the nature of 'society' response to this, but given they relate to instances in my current job this is probably not the place (not relating to me in terms of childcare btw). My partner otoh, has indicated he is eager to take on any childcare responsibilities when/if the time comes (and thus considers this extremely seriously) - however, I suspect he is in a reasonable minority. Hopefully this will change. - Anna Croft

I am with Katy here. Just cut those crazy working hours and make a life outside of the lab obligatory. Everybody will be happy and I can finally keep up with the papers published in my field. Damn workaholics! - Oliver Schuster

@Katy, @ Oliver: it's not necessarily that people are forced to work these hours (although that is a component), it's more the passion that drives them (which may be potentiated by the competition). - Björn Brembs

A couple of books by Berkeley women address these issues: _Mothers on the Fast Track_ http://www.amazon.com/gp... by Mary Ann Mason and Eve Mason Ekman, includes a section on women in academia (not scientists specifically). Mason notes that women with children are less likely to get... more... - Ruchira S. Datta

Claudia, the _Mothers on the Fast Track_ book answers your question. A rough paraphrase from memory: for men in academia, being married with children is *better* for their careers than not having children. For women in academia, it's the opposite. - Ruchira S. Datta

The competition driving them may be an illusion. This presentation on the Rules of Productivity http://lostgarden.com/Rules%2... is aimed at game developers, but apply to scientists as well. The 40-hour workweek was chosen because it gives the greatest sustained productivity. - Ruchira S. Datta

A salient point is that productivity for knowledge workers declines after 35 hours, not 40. - Ruchira S. Datta

Discuss. If there's anyone actually on here. - Noah Gray

24 more comments

everyone left.... - Mike Nencetti

would be interesting to see average stay and visits/person over this period - Mike Chelen

I still get better and more meaningful engagement on Friendfeed than any other site. - Andy Bakun

All we know from the FriendFeed founders is that they intend to keep the site running "indefinitely" - i.e. until such time as they announce that it's shutting down. I see plenty of activity in my networks, but I also see "signs": broken features (search), degraded performance (updates), no new development and most of all - lots of development at Facebook - that the end might be edging closer. A shame, it's by far my favourite and most useful network. - Neil Saunders

I agree with all comments. Well, except Mike N's, since I don't understand it. But anyway, I get nowhere near the interaction I used to get despite having increased numbers of subscribers. My narcissism doesn't allow me to think it is because I post crap, so I choose to blame the site. And the traffic numbers back that up. As do Neil's always thoughtful points. - Noah Gray

i was just bumping the thread to generate comments. - Mike Nencetti

I'm here, a sure sign of it's impending demise. - SuezanneC Baskerville

Could it be lowered interaction frequency comes from everybody having more subscriptions and distributing attention more selectively? I'd like to see statistics for likes and comments per user and unit time over the last 12 months... - Björn Brembs

Is that a nice way of saying "Yes, your links DO suck"? - Noah Gray

Some limited stats at http://www.ffholic.com (room search seems broken). Would be fun to pull out the API and answer Björn's question. - Neil Saunders

@Noah: lol :-) I did comment, didn't I? You know all Germans always lie! :-) - Björn Brembs

Well, being half-German, I guess you have a 1/2 chance in correctly identifying when you should trust what comes out of my fingers... - Noah Gray

My experiments with the API suggest that you can only go back 600 entries (late October in my case). So much for that plan :-) - Neil Saunders

Well, where have they all gone to if the stats are to be believed? - Frank

Uhh...Facebook and Twitter? Google Wave? Who knows. Why would we not believe the stats? - Noah Gray

Compete unique visitors are US-only, so the Silicon Valley buzz factor is amplified. People interested in FF because of the startup story left when that story ended. People who like the features are still here. - Bruce Lewis from fftogo

Great! Then it's back to where it started! A fringe site w/ a great interface for specialists. <-- Somehow,I don't see that as boding well or progress, even if "progress" means a mass adoption and dilution. At least mass adoption would mean the site isn't going anywhere... - Noah Gray

My tiny bit of observation would be that when FF allowed twitter feeds and such, that more people started using FF as a kind of dumping ground -- if it was good enough for twitter, it was good enough to feed here as well. So there is more noise than seemed to be the case a few months back. But I do not use twitter, so cannot vouch for a twitter-effect. - Mickey Schafer

I still love FriendFeed, but I personally now have more interacations (both reading and commenting) on Twitter. - Martin Fenner

@Mickey: I completely agree, which is why I deleted Twitter from here about 6-7 months ago and saw a much-better signal in my feed with regards to interactions and discussion-seeding. I think Deepak and Cameron might have played with this a bit as well but I don't remember what conclusions they drew... - Noah Gray

Honestly, how can anybody interact on Twitter? Twitter and FriendFeed is like MS Paint and Photoshop... - Björn Brembs

What Bjoern said. - Bill Hooker

This makes me sad! :-( - Jannifer @wordsforliving

...but even at the peak in the Compete chart -- August 2009 -- it was only 1MM uniques. the regulars at Friendfeed (like me) love it, but it was never in the same ballpark in terms of usage or relevance to average Net users as Twitter or Facebook. Not even close. A lot of the most active users, and loudest (like Scoble) have left, for the most part, and perhaps they were skewing the numbers far beyond what the site would have naturally had in the first place. - .LAG liked that

@LAG, well the difference in usage is not difficult to understand, Twitter is like MS Paint and Facebook is like Photoshop... :-) - Björn Brembs

w00t! Congratulations! - Björn Brembs

Thanks. :) - Jo Young

You should put up the link(s) to your papers! ;) - Jan Wessnitzer from iPod

Yup - where are they? - Björn Brembs

Meant to do this last week, here they are! http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal... - Jo Young

Wow! Those are some massive tomes! - Björn Brembs

Yeah, loads of images! - Jo Young

Björn Brembs › Comments