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Brett Slatkin › Comments
I wonder when realtime techniques will become a normal thing just like some AJAX techniques now. For example, when will there be a framework which allow you to do the same as FriendFeed's live-updating comments? (kind of "push" content).
Sue-do Nim, Bill Whetstone, Zackatoustra and 5 other people liked this
Some back-end things that FF has will not be easy to copy... But the back-and-forth between browser and server can be put into a generic library I think.
- Meryn Stol
Although I'm familiar with most web technologies as a programmer, I wouldn't have a clue how I would go about writing a *single user* friendfeed for example. That is, I would want a comment which I post in one browser window to be instantly visible in another.
- Meryn Stol
While the FF team has been quite innovative with their approach (I've never seen it being done before elsewhere) I know this part is not truly rocket science. If I'd delve into their JS, I could probably figure it out.
- Meryn Stol
aren't we describing Google Wave?
- Rah-PM 2012
Hmm good point Rahsheen... Well maybe that's the first framework then... I was thinking more of something lightweight as jquery. Jquery could really bring these realtime/push techniques to the masses. I think it could improve almost any site.
- Meryn Stol
I think "push" is the most important thing. "Realtime" makes one think of the stream... It's the push-updating of content that interest me the most. A kind of "syncing" of the content inside browser windows.
- Meryn Stol
Meryn, the push idea on the browser is obviously difficult due to the statelessness. However, a quick polling cycle can make it feel like real-time. Ajax requests through something like JQuery can have a long-polling affect as well because the content on the server may take some time to return.
- Rob Diana
Current state of the art for open source "long polling" is http://orbited.org/
- Brett Slatkin
Rob, does FF do it with polling? You also have the technique of holding a HTTP connection open. I think that's done for web-based chat rooms often. There's a always-on HTTP connection.
- Meryn Stol
Bret, yes, I saw that a while ago. Maybe there need to be more Orbited "recipes"... E.g. "How to build a single user FriendFeed room".
- Meryn Stol
There is no such thing as 'PUSH' on the web - FF is just long polling, i.e. an AJAX request that is kept open, then re-opened when new data is returned. We do exactly the same with TweetMeme.
- Nick Halstead
Nick, yes I know there's technically no push, but a HTTP connection on which new data is trickling in is somewhat like push. There's an open connection the server can "write" to.
- Meryn Stol
Nick, what library have you used for Tweetmeme? Home-brew? You know of any tutorials to do this kind of thing?
- Meryn Stol
As for a framework - it is actually not hard to write, the common problem is that most 'typical' web servers such as Apache are not designed to leave that many open connections, NGINX is much more suitable - as it is very fast + extremely light weight
- Nick Halstead
There is documentation on the principals - but not much open source that is robust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Nick Halstead
Thanks Nick. This is very interesting. Well I hope that a a kind of "JPush" (ala JQuery) will come to be.
- Meryn Stol
Actually, you can use a forever-loading iframe to do 'PUSH'. Long-polling isn't the only option, though it's the most common and easiest to use method. Twitterfall uses different methods depending on what is available in the user's browser; potentially forever-iframes, XHR, long-polling, and ordinary polling.
- Jalada
wish there is an opensource project
- kang
#benbunugör
- İrfan BÜYÜKYANGÖZ
Could someone (like twitterfeed) use the Buzz API to make Buzz posts from Gmail work as a Twitter publishing client? This can be real-time via PubSubHubbub.... - http://www.onebigfluke.com/2010...
The idea is they wouldn't subscribe to their Twitter feed in Buzz anyways, since they'd be pushing out from Buzz to Twitter as if it were a client (like http://tantek.com).
- Brett Slatkin
The echos/loops stuff is complex and should be addressed with atom:source and crossposting extensions; I believe they've got a remedy for this already.
- Brett Slatkin
How about thinking about it one more level removed, e.g. how does someone use their own site as a Buzz publishing client?
- Tantek
Tantek, not sure if you saw this: http://www.google.com/buzz...
- Brett Slatkin
Personally I use BNC Automatic Rss to Twitter http://bncscripts.com/bnc-aut... to send my feeds to twitter. What I like most is that instead of twitterfeed ( before using this script) it shows my own website.
- John Diguit
HTTP Conditional Get for RSS Hackers - The Fishbowl - http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2002...
Tracy and Cliff Gerrish liked this
When you receive the RSS file from the webserver, check the response header for two fields: Last-Modified and ETag. You don't have to care what is in these headers, you just have to store them somewhere with the RSS file. Next time you request the RSS file, include two headers in your request.. Your If-Modified-Since header should contain the value you snagged from the Last-Modified header earlier. The If-None-Match header should contain the value you snagged from the ETag header.
- Brett Slatkin
Gillmor Gang, Live Recording Session at 1pm PT. Participate at http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Mattthew, John Robertson, Julien and Rob La Gesse liked this
no feed yet?
- Richard
Not yet - starting "fashionably late", it appears
- Rob La Gesse
PubSubHubbub sounds even better in @julien51's French accent
- Kevin Marks
DAmmit!
- Julien
Wish my Skype worked... tried 5 different connections to no avail. :(
- Brett Slatkin
Good afternoon.
- Darren
Shame, Brett. We should have a chat about open video standards sometime...
- Kevin Marks
it's been interesting to see microsoft pick this up: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows...
- Kevin Marks
I assume others having issues with the audio/video?
- Darren
looks like some bandwidth constraints, yes
- Kevin Marks
Yes, the Internet is "fucked"
- Rob La Gesse
Keep getting drops here too; maybe there's a netsplit somewhere? B-)
- Brett Slatkin
Shame. Looked like a great group and range of topics.
- Darren
cant get a video feed at all now - says it's "Off Air"
- zeroinfluencer
It is still being recorded and will be available in a couple days, right here on building43.
- Rob La Gesse
@Brett see if you can arrange a netjoin plz/thx.
- Darren
;)
- Darren
Steve, next time you're going to discuss Activity Streams or Salmon, I'd love an invite!
- Darren
says @julien51 a feed need not be all the same - the entries can be different things - Activity Streams
- Kevin Marks
whats the Cliqset take on replicating twitter and facebook, Darren?
- Kevin Marks
i think i fixed the netsplit
- Brett Slatkin
on skype now....
- Brett Slatkin
Getting a stable video feed now
- zeroinfluencer
So I didn't hear the context. Do you mean replicating the content in the feeds we emit?
- Darren
Darren - yes, replicating twitter information seems problematic for MSFT and GOOG
- Kevin Marks
One of the original goals of AS was to provide attribution and maintain reference to the originating source. We abide by and support that in all cases.
- Darren
So while the data may be the same, de-duplicating should get easier as we get better and re-syndication.
- Darren
Though not all parties abide by that due to their own internal architecture. GOOG is one of those I think. Re: maintaining Atom IDs.
- Darren
Though it does exist elsewhere in the Atom entry. Not sure on JS right now.
- Darren
I don't think google's Atom parser is dealing correctly with Source at the moment - @t was showing me problems from his feed
- Kevin Marks
So there we go. I have audio/video in Chrome.
- Darren
Brett and Julien look like they were hacking all night.
- Darren
Darren : maybe we did!
- Julien
I need to grow my hair longer to keep up with Julien and Brett, clearly
- Kevin Marks
I love how Steve has completely ignored Cliqset as a service.
- Darren
No, actually I hate it.
- Darren
ala, Salmon?
- Darren
Salmon: http://vimeo.com/13349184
- Darren
is Cliqset using Salmon?
- Brian Hendrickson
Yes.
- Darren
We support inbound and outbound Salmon exchange.
- Darren
The Vimeo video I just linked is a brief example of Salmon exchange with Status.net.
- Darren
Steve's "real-time" video is playing right now but I suppose multi-video viewing is an option
- Brian Hendrickson
Darren, getting better comments flow from Buzz would be good too
- Kevin Marks
Kevin, very soon. Very very soon.
- Darren
Chris Messina mentioned "private APIs", will Cliqset and/or Superfeedr help a user use his "friends timelines" from multiple services?
- Brian Hendrickson
Brian, can you clarify a bit?
- Darren
I think it's time for a massive "Rome wasn't built in a day!"
- Julien
re: salmon, don't forget the draft I sent out the other day - crypto-free private messaging over pshb. :) (sorry, the video isn't working for me, so I have no idea what you're *actually* talking about)
- Blaine
yeah blaine reading through it
- Brett Slatkin
see you sunday!
- Brett Slatkin
@blaine and @jyri had twitter/jaiku interop working over 2 years ago... @twitter dropped that ball
- Kevin Marks
Unfortunately I can't attend but Charlie is.
- Darren
bummer; but that's okay
- Brett Slatkin
brett: :-D I'm stoked. Glad you'll be there. darren: We'll make sure everyone's voice gets heard. Except Julien's. Because he's too busy to hang out with us. :-p
- Blaine
haha
- Brett Slatkin
kevin: not @jyri, ralph meijer (who was tech lead on jaiku at the time) and I. But yeah, sadness.
- Blaine
Re: what Steve was saying. I personally believe Salmon is the single most important component of the DiSo stack and it's the one that seems to be getting the least attention.
- Darren
Darren: TweetDeck and Seesmic tie Facebook and Twitter together, I'm wondering can Cliqset/Superfeedr and standards like activitystrea.ms help users and/or developers tie those particular "private" APIs together, in other words the authenticated view (friends_timeline on Twitter) of one's friends updates etc.
- Brian Hendrickson
Darren: I agree, but I think the framing on Salmon is wrong. The pattern isn't just for commenting, and framing it like that limits its usefulness.
- Blaine
Blaine : I'll be on a plane! Ill be following it from the air!
- Julien
brian: this is what salmon *should* do, and what the draft I sent out the other day proposes. I'm convinced that public-content-only PSHB isn't interesting – once we mix in private data, then things get interesting.
- Blaine
@Brett, agreed.
- Darren
@Brian, we sort of do that today. Cliqset supports open standards, but we also integrate with proprietary APIs. We then provide APIs of our own (standards based and proprietary) to allow developers to integrate not only with Cliqset, but the services we support downstream.
- Darren
disconcerting zeros in the Internet Traffic Report: http://www.internettrafficreport.com/nameric...
- Kevin Marks
how close is Google's 'latest' search to track, steve? eg Steve Jobs: http://bit.ly/9ojR6X
- Kevin Marks
@darren - Funny, I was just working on my DiSo presentation for Sunday and trying to figure out where Salmon fit.
- Steve Ivy
Tantek was asking about hAtom support in PubSubHubbub...
- Kevin Marks
yep we've talked about hAtom it's in the queue
- Brett Slatkin
What would that look like, @brett?
- Steve Ivy
basically a <link> tag in the html declaring the hub, and the rest of the protocol working basically the same
- Brett Slatkin
conversion into atom XML at the hub would be optional
- Brett Slatkin
@brett - now that's what I'm talking about. open, easy to implement, and rooted in the HTML doc.
- Steve Ivy
this ties into the "pubsubhubbub for arbitrary content types" that monica is pushing forward: http://code.google.com/p... (draft)
- Brett Slatkin
brett: when do arbitrary content types land?
- Blaine
they're not ready yet i don't think; there are security issues wrt the content payload
- Brett Slatkin
we haven't figured out how to preserve http headers for passing through the messages, which is necessary for content types that are not fully self-describing
- Brett Slatkin
alright i need to eat ttyl guys! see some folks sunday sunday sunday
- Brett Slatkin
bslatkin on Is anyone using the fork-join-queue technique described in the data pipelines talk? - http://www.reddit.com/r...
"I use it in the PubSubHubbub hub. =) http://code.google.com/p..."
- Brett Slatkin
Opening up microblogging with founder of Status.net — building43 - http://www.building43.com/videos...
alfred westerveld liked this
Finally got a chance to watch Evan's interview with Scoble and it's great. Must watch for people whose curiosity about decentralized social networking has been piqued by the press about Diaspora.
- Brett Slatkin
Going to Mars—sort of - http://www.boingboing.net/2010...
I wonder, do they also simulate the communication lag to/from earth for voice calls and internet access? That's got to be a big part of the psychological experience, right?
- Brett Slatkin
Facebook Security Flaw Publicizes Private Chats - Bits Blog - NYTimes.com - http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...
Mark Trapp, FALOB, deerstep and Micah liked this
How is this a reasonable failure mode? What engineering practice/approach would lead to such an awful mistake?
- Brett Slatkin
PHP
- Nick Lothian
"For a limited period of time, a bug permitted some users’ chat messages and pending friend requests to be made visible to their friends by manipulating the ‘preview my profile’ feature of Facebook privacy settings." —Facebook
- Micah
Google Web Elements - http://www.google.com/webelem...
Google Checkout finally has a one-click store gadget: what they should have launched in 2006.
- Brett Slatkin
Stargate Studios Virtual Backlot Demo on Vimeo - http://vimeo.com/8337356
Hadn't see this yet. Really impressive.
- Brett Slatkin
I like
- hersonls
Google Wave Sample: Pushy - http://wave-samples-gallery.ap...
Stoyan Zhekov liked this
Would love to see someone extend this to speak PubSubHubbub, so Wave could become a collaborative feed reader.
- Brett Slatkin
Google adds support for hCalendar and hRecipe Rich Snippets - http://microformats.org/2010...
If you don't understand microformats, here's a good concrete example of how it's useful (see "prep time: 20 mins, cook time 45 mins" in first search result snippet).
- Brett Slatkin
Learn Python The Hard Way Site Is Live - http://sheddingbikes.com/posts...
Dude's making furious progress.
- Brett Slatkin
Nokia: digital SLRs are doomed • The Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010...
Morton Fox, Mark Trapp and Adewale Oshineye liked this
Gimme some of what they're smoking @NokiaHQ plz~
- Brett Slatkin
A Switch for the Google Age - Bits Blog - NYTimes.com - http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...
Cool.
- Brett Slatkin
Will Wall Street require Python? | ITworld - http://www.itworld.com/governm...
Reminds me a lot of one of Jaron Lanier's concrete ideas from his book.
- Brett Slatkin
SwissEduc: Stromboli Online - Volcanic and glacial landforms of Iceland - http://www.swisseduc.ch/strombo...
Picture of the eruption at night! Crazy shit! Be sure to click previous/next to see all pics. I never knew volcanoes came with lightning~
- Brett Slatkin
SPARQL + pubsubhubbub = sparqlPuSH | Alexandre Passant - http://apassant.net/blog...
hersonls, Emre Sevinc and Berker Peksag liked this
Really happy to see someone compose a new realtime service (in this case, for SPARQL) using PubSubHubbub and other reusable parts!
- Brett Slatkin
The Chilling Effect of the GPL - http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog...
Tracy liked this
Interesting overview of the issues. I prefer the MIT/Apache license because it's actually free.
- Brett Slatkin
Ping.fm Now Supports RSS - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
alfred westerveld and Stoyan Zhekov liked this
Cool!
- Brett Slatkin
For now just one feed, but we'll see...
- Stoyan Zhekov
Hell on Two Wheels: No Money Down, Low APR on Bike Loan!: Culture/Entertainment: SFAppeal - http://sfappeal.com/culture...
Yay Mission Bikes shout-out~
- Brett Slatkin
Google App Engine Blog: App Engine SDK 1.3.2 Released - http://googleappengine.blogspot.com/2010...
Scott Ludwig, NaHi, Louis Gray and 2 other people liked this
Big release! DoS blocking system, programmatic blobstore reads, faster queue execution, and more!
- Brett Slatkin
Scientists Finally Prove High Fructose Corn Syrup Risks | Apartment Therapy The Kitchn - http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitc...
Wow-- pretty impressive results, via Brett Cannon
- Brett Slatkin
Official Google Blog: A new approach to China: an update - http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010...
Important, part 2
- Brett Slatkin
Seems unlikely that this will be acceptable to China.
- Cliff Gerrish
Deepak Singh, Michael Lehman and Michael R. Bernstein liked this
How'd it go? Very curious to hear!
- Brett Slatkin
First quantum effects seen in visible object - physics-math - 17 March 2010 - New Scientist - http://www.newscientist.com/article...
In a nutshell: They made a physical object that's in a quantum superposition state.
- Brett Slatkin
RE2: a principled approach to regular expression matching - Google Open Source Blog - http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2010...
Tracy liked this
Nice!
- Brett Slatkin
Gillmor Gang, Live Recording Session at 12:30PM PT. Participate at http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Zu from AOD, Chris Messina, Christophe Ducamp and 5 other people liked this
who are the guest's today?
- Chris Jackson
Me and Chris Messina and others
- Brett Slatkin
Chris Messina talking OpenId??
- Chris Jackson
Has Steve ordered his iPad yet?
- Karoli
I;ve ordered 2
- Steve Gillmor
We will be up shortly.
- Robert Scoble
Gillmor Gang live recording session now w/ Scoble, Marks, Slatkin and Messina at http://building43.com/realtime
- Cliff Gerrish
Fillmore? West or East?
- Cliff Gerrish
the latest Foursquare update (3-11) is much better than the prev. Im liking foursquare more and more
- Chris Jackson
not that hard. just put a "hide" link on the thing.
- Karoli
Only bump stuff when somebody I follow comments.
- Ken Sheppardson
Then you need to let me pull in somebody elses app/view into Gmail.
- Ken Sheppardson
Buzz just doesn't scale if people actually use it.
- Ken Sheppardson
Z listers?
- Cliff Gerrish
Wait.... if somebody I follow comments to someone I *don't*, I don't see the item in my stream. Buzz doesn't have friend-of-a-friend... or am I missing something?
- Ken Sheppardson
Let us all shout from the mountains: Robert Scoble is insane.
- Karoli
Giving power users control over their experience isn't incompatible with making the system more usable to non-power users. It's a strawman.
- Ken Sheppardson
Kevin, Cliqset does that. All of that. Cliqset stream filtering gives you much more flexibility than FriendFeed or Buzz.
- Darren
Yes, exactly Darren, cliqset does this nicely.
- Kevin Marks
from Android
Ostatus.
- exador23
We need *many* different systems, each optimized for one or another kind of interaction, yet all working together...
- Bob Wyman
shouting in foursquare is kinda cool
- Chris Jackson
Hey, Kevin: Is anybody from Twitter active in the Activitystreams process?
- Ken Sheppardson
No, Ken, twitter us sadly missing from activity streams discussion
- Kevin Marks
from Android
All services should be sharing the same information but competing based on what they do with the data.
- Bob Wyman
Absolutely. It levels the playing field and becomes less about having critical mass.
- Darren
Using one versus the other will not mean sacrificing connectivity or conversation with those on other systems.
- Darren
Sharing the data means that new and innovative services can launch with a small user base and then grow. Today, a new service is forced to isolate its users from the rest of the conversation.
- Bob Wyman
with items like Activity Streams and Salmon Protocol - then sites can compete on how they expose/manage the UI/X experience. This allows users to pick the site based on how it allows them to interact with the stream.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Use the Source!
- Bob Wyman
Changing the Topic: Are those iPhone or Nexus One headphones on Chris and Brett?
- Alex de Soto
In nature when a channel is that narrow it gets routed around - same will happen with Twitter soon
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Thanks Kevin. Yes, as Chris Messina says, we "up convert" to Activity Streams. :)
- Darren
We should all read legacy formats like RSS, but we should only write Atom...
- Bob Wyman
Virtually nobody uses rssCloud. Vastly more people use PSHB. Should we implement *all* protocols no matter how good they are or how few people use them?
- Bob Wyman
Postels law applied to feeds, Bob?
- Kevin Marks
from Android
Absolutely, Postel was a smart guy! Read RSS, Write Atom.
- Bob Wyman
Why don't we just move PSHB spec into an IETF working group and then do all the normal patent disclosures?
- Bob Wyman
Leo Laporte makes a cameo on the Gillmor Gang.
- Cliff Gerrish
Leo :-)
- Jamie
Great, first time on Friendfeed in a long time. Slow down is because of changing servers?
- Tom Landini
Would Facebook want everyone to use their API? If they really wanted everyone using the same API, wouldn't Facebook be using open standards or putting their API through open review?
- Bob Wyman
It's like Brett just mentioned - is Facebook ready internally to allow their use of a protocol to be dictated by an outside agency.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Standards are like sausage... They taste good, but don't ask too many questions about how they are made.
- Bob Wyman
Great question, Steve.
- r Macdonald
Track! If we standardize on *existing* API's, we'll never be able to implement TRACK!
- Bob Wyman
Track MUST come back one day...
- Bob Wyman
Bob, yes. it must.
- Karoli
Standards are actually a conservative element in the overall progress of the stream.
- Cliff Gerrish
status net + identispy when there's one statusnet stream, and one buzz stream and one facebook stream, etc that something like identispy can access brings track back.
- exador23
Cliff, standards are "conservative" once adopted. But, often, the process of defining the standard is progressive since folk seek to anticipate and identify future needs. The nature of the standard depends on where you are in its life cycle.
- Bob Wyman
Google shouldn't be "releasing APIs" -- Google should be *using* openly defined APIs defined by the community. There should be NO "Buzz API" -- there should only be "APIs that Buzz uses."
- Bob Wyman
ostatus piggybacks on Atom, Activity Streams, PubSubHubbub and such. Right now, I can subscribe from identi.ca, or any website running status.net to any Buzz profile, thanks to the magic of Atom, PubSubHubbub, Activity Streams and whathaveyou. Interoperability. It's getting there. Interestingly enough, I can't subscribe to cliqset users. Must be something about their Atom implementation.
- Ed F
Bob Wyman makes an excellent point
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
But, we haven't started defining the "track" extensions to these protocols.... That will come soon!
- Bob Wyman
or the geo query extension, Bob
- Robert Scoble
Errr.. The "geo guery" thing might be hard to do in a "standard" since we've still got a good bit of uncertainty in terms of what people need. But, yes, we've got to work on it.
- Bob Wyman
simplegeoinc's http://vicarious.ly example is a good one, bob. documenting the buzz geo api the mobile client uses would be good too
- Robert Scoble
Kevin, are you playing the role of Scoble?
- Cliff Gerrish
Note: There's geo stuff in HTML5 as well. Much to be considered here.
- Bob Wyman
I have scoble's gadgets bag here....
- Robert Scoble
Please compete with Buzz! Please!
- Bob Wyman
Great show Steve - thanks!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Thanks for another good show
- r Macdonald
Great show,thanks Steve
- Alex
thanks all!
- Brett Slatkin
If we had to wait for open community standards based APIs before doing anything, nothing would ever get done. Software is released in months, standards are released in years, and standards not based on field experience are useless anyway. Push forward now. Organize and consolidate later.
- Todd Hoff
standards are not released in years: http://ostatus.org/sites...
- exador23
★ Attention Is the Real Resource - http://daringfireball.net/2010...
Amit Patel and Adewale Oshineye liked this
More Gruber awesomeness. Very relevant to PubSubHubbub's effectiveness and open data policy.
- Brett Slatkin
does PuSH stuff not get counted in say, feedburner subscriber stats? http://en.blog.wordpress.com/2010... http://wordpress.org/extend...
There's room in the spec for aggregating and delivering statistics to publishers about their subscribers. See this section: http://pubsubhubbub.googlecode.com/svn...
- Brett Slatkin
thanks brett. yeah im looking at superfeedr for some of that.
- Paul Stamatiou
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