I looked at at least two pages of every user who posted. I just started learning, so I bookmarked about 20 pages that I'll be coming back to. This was nice, thanks!
- Ryan Massie
This used to be one of my least favorite songs on the album (er... cassette it was for me), but it's really grown on me over the years. The Clash will never get old.
- Adrian
thanks to Pandora, their songs bubble up and i've discovered a lot of them are really cool
- Brian Hendrickson
It's also interesting in the context of the fact DirecTV viewers no longer get the Versus sports network, as they couldn't negoiate a deal with Comcast
- Ken Sheppardson
ask Al Gore how he feels about their negotiations re: Current TV
- Karoli
Comcast is very aggressive in keeping out local competitors - they have bought every local cable company or forced them out. They have locked out all local sporting events
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Yeah, here in San Francisco we couldn't get the Stanford/Cal game this fall... it was on Versus. And it means no daily, live Tour de France coverage next July :-(
- Ken Sheppardson
It was "rooter" before people started to mispronounce it.
- Gregg H.
I wonder what this means for their TV On Demand section - currently NBC is not listed for any shows and CBS is very big in that list. Will this change and now NBC will only be On Demand? Will Hulu now be a Comcast Cable only site?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
The Network has changed to the point that combining cable + tv production can't corner the market in anything.
- Cliff Gerrish
consolidation of power and message control
- Karoli
cliff, if i have no access to nbc news because i'm not a comcast subscriber, the messages aren't especially helpful.
- Karoli
Don't you have access to NBC news via the network?
- Cliff Gerrish
cliff - they already "load balance" based on where/when you are streaming from/to - so now what's to prevent them from load balancing all ABC/CBS sites in favour of NBC?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Francine, the argument against the acquistion is that they'll control the Network. They won't.
- Cliff Gerrish
That's a good question - will Comcast/NBC still allow Netflix/Mediafly content to be streamed at full speed or will it become traffic shaped
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
you mean will the net be.. you know... neutral?
- Ken Sheppardson
Google will spank properties that throttle - that alone will keep them playing fair.
- Rob La Gesse
All proprietary un-free software and platforms will lose in the long run.
- Gregg H.
Cliff, they already do. If I am watching a streaming video for more than 5 minutes I get traffic shaped. If i'm watching Comcast On Demand I do not. Will Hulu now be traffic shaped or will it get a pass? That what will be the clue if they are acting in a network neutral manner
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Windows is dog slow on good rigs, whereas Chrome OS is fast even on weak hardware.
- Raphael, Raphael
Francine - it is basically throttling of your bandwidth based on content and/or destination
- Rob La Gesse
Francine - if i'm streaming a video on Comcast the first 5 or so minutes are at my full bandwidth capability (15mbs) but if I continue past that point the speed of the video drops to less than 1mbs
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
But Silverlight is from Microsoft. How can it be good?
- Raphael, Raphael
Amazing Silverlight is actually seeing some traction. Developer Cuz predicted it would 2 years ago.
- JimmyJet
When Google switches Youtube videos to Ogg Theora natively palyabe in HTML 5 Browsers I think Gillmor and others that deride the importance of free software codecs and platforms will have a revelation
- Gregg H.
bah - I have to run an errand - I wish the video show could be viewed later
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
wish those questions had been asked in 2001
- Karoli
Bear - it can - they are always posted on building43.com a few days later.
- Rob La Gesse
Gillmor Gang is available on YouTube - your DVR of choice...
- Cliff Gerrish
google'll be using h264 and html5 video before any os codec
- Kevin Marks
Silverlight is as un-free as you can get.
- Gregg H.
Mike - use a hand grenade, Those suckers are tough!
- Rob La Gesse
seriously, take a pair of scissors and cut it. It works. surgically, even.
- Karoli
Is locked down linux an open system?
- Cliff Gerrish
The importance of the use of our computer devices in our lives are fundamental. That's why the software and hardware has to be free. Otherwise we don't control our lives. The software and hardware providers control our lives. That's the problem Steve.
- Gregg H.
But you need a real computer to debug anything. You couldn't actually debug from within Chrome OS.
- Raphael, Raphael
Is ChromeOS going to give you access to the command line?
- Cliff Gerrish
Gregg - that's crazy. As crazy as "free" healthcare.
- Rob La Gesse
strange disconnect between these guys talking about high tech and Mike opening a plastic insane package with his teeth.
- Karoli
The importance of the use of cars, homes, electricity and food in our lives are fundamental. That's why cars, homes, electricity and food has to be free. Otherwise we don't control our lives. [oh, "free" free]
- Ken Sheppardson
Chromium is NOT free. I pay for it with my attention and my gestures - and Google profits off both.
- Rob La Gesse
"opening a plastic insane package with his teeth" Either a good way to take out aggression or raise blood pressure, take your choice.
- JimmyJet
the livestream from SuperNova has been great. Good panels and very good discussions.
- Jerry Schuman
If we understand that phones are going to the Network -- why don't we see that television is going there as well.
- Cliff Gerrish
Aside from a philosophical view. After being Windows free for 2 years and being free of malware, spyware, adware, and not having to run virus scan software and all that crap, I really don't understand why people like Gillmor think Linux is second class to Windows. I would never want the pain and horrible experience of using Windows again purely for practical reasons.
- Gregg H.
Gregg, I understand Windows 7 is quite nice. I'm planning to buy a cheap Windows 7 notebook as a backup machine.
- Karoli
You guys should talk a bit about Status.net, formerly Laconi.ca. Evan Proudomu just got over $1 Mil in VC. It could wind up being a very viable free federated decentralized competitor to Twitter.
- Gregg H.
I need to find a list of UK speak so that I can incorporate it in my daily vernacular here in the States. :)
- Derrick
gotta wonder how many of these are transformers
- vijay
@derrick a fav outburst of mine is "goat molesting, gerbil felcher". If I want to confuse a person, I'll yell "yoda raped your dog". list of some apparently strong profanities removed to stop kols thread from deteriating :)
- alphaxion
Oh my stars, alpha...anything a little less, uh, vulgar? A friend I studied with here went to boarding school in London (originally from Thailand) and he used to call people stupid gits. I always loved that.
- Derrick
there's the modifier of git - get. eg "cheeky gets!". Sorry if I turned the thread blue, I was being a cuntmuffin ;)
- alphaxion
0.75 (926/1226) - still relatively new here
- mikepk
I only see my stats for the last week (17/14 = 1.21) Please tell me your 670 number is for more than just a week!
- Brian Johns
1.44 (566/391) for brianjohns (after week tally you should see a comma then 'all time' count - I can see it on your page)
- Micah Wittman
OK, sorry. I'm a total dumbass. I stopped reading after the weekly totals...
- Brian Johns
3.74, which seems way off of everybody else's. I wonder what that says. I comment a lot more than I like.
- Cyrus Lendvay
FFers use FF with their own strategy or simply default tendencies. The ratio is an interesting snapshot of behaviour. Thanks for joining in everyone, hope more keep flowing in.
- Micah Wittman
from twhirl
0.66 - I tend to 'like' things without needing to comment further, I guess, and I notice I usually like the things upon which I comment. Well, frequently.
- ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ
.39 (2457/6242) I guess I don't comment much. I do 'like' a lot of things, it would seem.
- Bren -- Designated Driver
0.62 then again i have over 11,000 comments
- Cee Bee
1.23 (5287/4229) - I am put to shame by Cee Bee's participation, good grief!
- Fa La La La Lindsay
So far: Average: 1.27 | Median: 0.81 ... (if you average 1 comment per like, you'd be 1.0 ... if you're 0.xx you might herd content more than discuss ... if you're whole numbers above 1 you may not 'like' much or discuss plenty or both)
- Micah Wittman
InPerpetualMotion(Gina k), I really liked this 'Like' of yours (in a series of pics, so I flickr fav'd it): http://friendfeed.com/e... and commented. Thanks!
- Micah Wittman
.68 6986/10194 Someone wrote a great article on the comment-like ratio a few months ago. Search on FriendFeed is crashing on me... I'll try to get the link.
- Mitchell Tsai
Thanks Mitchell (btw, search crashing on me too - lots)
- Micah Wittman
1316 comments/20221 likes (0.06), according to Windows Calculator, although I probably screwed up.
- Tyson Key
A recent change in FF: now the comment count shows total number of comments (previously multiple comments in one thread only counted as one) http://friendfeed.com/e... so all the numbers above are from the old methodology....
- David HC Soul
My new ratio: 0.76 all time (old methodology .52).... this week 1.39
- David HC Soul
Looks like my ratio as flipped again (comments back to dominating again). Seems to match my own awareness I've lately been commenting without Liking (commenting is my inherent recognition of value to me and the additional Like is when it merits an extra bump to help discovery by others).
- Micah Wittman
Darn - 0.52. I guess I need to say why I like something a little more often :-) Liking this thread because I was wondering the same thing recently. Has anybody worked out the average from the numbers here? </islazy>
- Andy Bold
Andy, scroll upward and you'll see a couple calculations from before (January: Average: 1.27 | Median: 0.81)
- Micah Wittman
Rick, you mean that face with glasses I photoshopped tint into with an apparently disembodied arm which is actually very much attached to my eldest son? It's mostly just me :)
- Micah Wittman
Thanks, Michael. Yes, you have a rising tide of comment percentage (oh, wow, you were one of the originals from January - cool!)
- Micah Wittman
Yeah, that's a decent upward rise in comments, Nicholas.
- Micah Wittman
.6 (6,000/10,000) 3rd update - Now it's time to flip this on its head. My goal is to have (16,000/16,000) next time I post here. Regardless of what happens, I'm just looking forward to the next 10,000 comments, likes, posts, and new relationships I make here. It's all good!
- Michael Fidler
1.76 (7539/4290) My commenting habits haven't chanced much, but it felt like I clicked Like a lot less, and this ratio confirms that for me.
- Micah Wittman
.82 as of right now. edit: on January 8th it was 0.39 -- when I saw that, I decided to make more of an effort to comment. When I hit 10k "likes" I decided I wouldn't "like" anything else until I also had 10k comments.
- Bren -- Designated Driver
Jimminy, I'm copyrighting every single number. It's kind of a honeypot ;) Actually, it was curiosity mostly, but I also hope to build a sampling (small and self-selecting as it may be) for anyone who might want to analyze it.
- Micah Wittman
Wow I didn't realize I was so out of whack!! 12.23 that's got to be a record (and I don't even import my feeds with the summary as a comment)!!
- Chris Myles
Thanks JA, Chris (wow, 12+ is unusual :), Serkan and Nine!
- Micah Wittman
0.89 (17818/19913) (Somebody better make a cool ass graph of all this data!)
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
Micah.. I told you I take my likes seriously; ). You *might* want to ask (in a separate post) what percentage of likes were used to "bookmark" a post or save it for later VS actually "liking it". I NEVER used like for that.. but I did use a private group that if filled with my own topics (and comments)..
- Chris Myles
OK, so statistically, what ratio results in better interaction on FF?
- Jason Huebel
I don't think I could argue that any particular kind of ratio is "best", because if Lurkers like to Lurk and cultivate (via Likes) and the Chatty-ites love to chat, to pump out much many more comments than Likes, each can be happy and make for a great social experience.
- Micah Wittman
So I'm fairly balanced, it appears. I would imagine it's because I try to comment on every post I like. That's not always true, obviously. But mostly it is.
- Jason Huebel
Just clicking "Like" seems too easy. I feel like I should say something, too.
- Jason Huebel
wow, what a difference time makes, when i 1st posted on this thread, 6.43%, now = 1.25%, for a 5.18% difference, :o (and this is the earliest post to date i've recovered of my activity on ff)
- chaz2b
chaz, I think there's been a big fluctuation for most people (maybe not that much). This is the oldest post on which you commented that you've recovered?
- Micah Wittman
that was my third post... It's interesting to see how the number has changed. of course, I manipulated the number to a degree, because I stopped "liking" things for a while...
- Bren -- Designated Driver
Bren, the other thing that can seriously throw off someone's stats is a feed that upon each item it imports adds a comment automatically.
- Micah Wittman
true. that can seriously inflate comment stats, of course. Then you have someone like RAPatton, who posts a gazillion comments, in part because of his playlist posts where he will list each song in a separate comment. I found, after this post in fact, that I tended to "like" things much more frequently than comment on them, that I was lurking instead of participating. I have changed the way I use ff rather considerably, and I think for the better.
- Bren -- Designated Driver
Thanks Paola, Michael, Artemko, J. and Daniel!
- Micah Wittman
1.09 (9990/9105) From and including: Saturday, April 26, 2008 To and including: Thursday, November 12, 2009 It is 566 days from the start date to the end date, end date included Or 1 year, 6 months, 18 days including the end date to reach 10,000 comments.
- Christopher Harley
"Twitter search spoiled me with it's recency. For months i've performed several extra steps on almost every Google search: a) submit the search term via my browser toolbar b) click "Advanced Search" c) click "Date, usage rights, numeric search and more" d) choose "past 24 hours" from the date popup e) click "Advanced Search" submit button. It was getting tiresome but recently a new 3-step option appeared and I can a) submit the search term via my browser toolbar b) click "Show options" c) click "past 24 hours" I'm ready for the 1-step version, I will Like it."
- Brian Hendrickson
And we heard someone drinking coffee or something as well
- Pierre TAMISIER
Love these British accents and guys who sound like they're talking in tunnels
- Francine Hardaway
Just what I need. An explosion of data coming into the stream
- Francine Hardaway
Sorry, Robert. I'm typing. Then again, I'm not on the call... didn't realize it was disruptive ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
I want tweetdeck or seesmic to be a full "real-time" web browser : with all real-time information in there : Twitter, Facebook... etc, but also Gmail, my RSS feeds,... etc
- Julien
Ken, that doesn't mean we can't hear you.
- Cliff Gerrish
Francine: I haven't seen any of that stuff on my stream yet. Probably has a big impact on search.
- Robert Scoble
Julien => it sounds like google wave what you want
- Pierre TAMISIER
Cliff: So you can hear the Blue Angels overhead too then?
- Ken Sheppardson
Keep looking, I have 10.01 via iTunes.
- Ken Morley
I know but the live format isnt always convenient from a timing perspective. some of us work! lol
- Jamie
Francine: I use them less and less, usually only for conferences. And even then I hate them.
- Robert Scoble
Oh, and people now spam by putting hashtags on irrelevant tweets
- Francine Hardaway
I need a visual map on how these things work or I can't adapt easily.
- Arnie Klaus
Bored dog just countersurfed in my kitchen, took the top off the crockpot and tried to take out the chicken! Thank goodness a fail!
- Francine Hardaway
Can someone please move the pointer out of the middle of the screen?
- Matthew Schrock
I like Brizzly's take on a wikified hashtag index right inside the client. It's got flaws but it's a good start. Would love to see an "official" hashtag wiki. Then again, Twitter doesn't feel like a wiki-friendly company. More on Brizzly at http://www.louisgray.com/live...
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Laura's not odd -- just far more like everyone else
- Ian McGee
Matthew, we just have to live with it for this show.
- Cliff Gerrish
Robert, I'm curious, are you aware of Cliqset? Some of the issues you've brought up are problems we're very interested and about to help solve.
- Darren
Yeah, I'm barely aware of Cliqset, I will be interested in trying that out. Probably this weekend.
- Robert Scoble
looks like we need a standard for these activities in a stream... oh wait there's one! What we need is an easy wait to be a "source" with existing clients (ie. making seesmic/tweedeck activity stream clients for many services, not just twitter/facebook)
- Sylvain Carle
Creating a simple and effective way for a social media publishing workflow (avoiding duplication) is very difficult at the moment.
- Mark Krynsky
Yea, the came in the client... but never further than that : Mosaic would have never been the web browser if it couldn't browse any website : http://blog.superfeedr.com/Real-ti...
- Julien
"Privacy" means "multi groups" while "public" means "one group", no ?
- Baptiste Cadiou
Just signing into Cliqset to see if it solves anything
- Francine Hardaway
Public means multiple scale free microcommunities.
- Cliff Gerrish
Public = you determine whether or not you're a member, Private = I do.
- Ken Sheppardson
Agree with Mark K - GR does a good job, feedly is a fine app which also provides suggestions.
- Dave Martin
I wrote about Twitter Times yesterday which Kevin just mentioned http://lifestreamblog.com/custom-... It's a great way to filter Twitter links by the people you follow on Twitter.
- Mark Krynsky
Well, it shouldn't have to be just your friends... I'd like to see some sort of wizard that let you build up groups, e.g. "Create a group of all the peole my friends follow, and show me trending topics among those people"
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, if Twitter rolls out lists soon and allows that data to be passed to the API Twitter Times could leverage that automatically.
- Mark Krynsky
I want to see the principal that Twitter Times has released to be created on a wider scale. Imagine that logic expanded across multiple social media services and the people you follow on each of them. Then mash the data across all of them. It become far more interesting and useful at that point.
- Mark Krynsky
Kevin, TwitterTimes looks like something actually useful.
- Francine Hardaway
All it that it is is a wordpress theme. I have it on my blog, too.
- Kevin Winn
openmicroblogger doesn't use WordPress, it has a Restful web services back-end with a number of built-in Rest-MVC ruby-on-rails-style micro-apps. openmicroblogger does a full round trip from Twitter (is a Twitter client) and it has built-in support for Facebook Connect, Amazon S3 file storage, Zeep Mobile SMS I/O, lots of other stuff. it is new and buggy, too.
- Brian Hendrickson
"Sean O said "it's easy to setup a URL shortener" but setting up a self-hosted Web app and SQL database is too difficult for most. There is an alternative: http://rp.ly lets you easily make short URLs on your own domain name: s.yourdomain.com or you.ly -- that way you're not advertising someone else's service, and your shortening-data is exportable as an RSS feed, so you're never again dependent on some service with a shaky business model. brian@rp.ly"
- Brian Hendrickson
It'd be cool if you could type the hash symbol before a keyword in the content for that word to be automatically added to the "Add tags" field. Then you could add other tags that aren't also a part of the content, but only when necessary. The problem with an extra field is that it's often not used (too much of a "hassle").
- Grey Drane
Grey, that's a good idea. Also, I like the way Google has implemented it. It's so ... clean.
- Ahsan Ali aka. Slick
Haven't used the Google Reader interface in a while since moving to Feedly. I'll check it out.
- Grey Drane
Definately that is the thing FF is missing - tags are very useful, especially when I'd liek to find some old messages based on poast topic. Please FF add separate tag field.
- Duszolap
I agree - FF is missing tags wich are specialy useful when searching some old messages. Please give us tag support!
- Duszolap
I like the idea of tags in FF, I wouldn't want to give up the hashtag ability :) ... I see hashtags as adding context to signal in a way that helps others organize around ideas... if I had tags, I'd inevitably apply too many and then how would folks 'really' know what the key tag was?
- Holly Rae
#hashtags ftw! tags take up space on the screen whether they are part of the post or separate, might as well make them as integrated and simple as possible
- Mike Chelen
with you Jesse this is LG's best. When is he going to write a book do you think? I want to read LG on the planes. I've seen all the movies. I've read all the papers. I want stuff like Parallel Internet in book form.
- Thomas Power
Starting to feel a little jealous after Thomas's post ;-)
- Jesse Stay
Hey Jesse why you jealous? cos' I've seen all the movies ...what can I say that's iTunes for you
- Thomas Power
Echo and Disqus can bring the sidewiki feed back into it
- Kevin Marks
I's not controlling conversation I object to just reaching across a network and changing the way my content is displayed. I have no objections to a client side mashup or even a peer to peer
- Matt Terenzio
You do have control over what you write. You don't have control over what OTHER PEOPLE write.
- Ken Sheppardson
SideWiki is MOST dangerous because it isn't RSS-enabled, and there's no way to properly monitor it.
- Ike Pigott
SideWiki has a feed for every page and for every user, wrong Ike
- Kevin Marks
Y'all realize Diigo has been doing this same thing for a couple years now, right? Folks just haven't objected because they don't know about it. There will *always* be side converasations you don't know about that you can't control.
- Ken Sheppardson
framing is wrong. I format my content to browser size (just devil's advocate, I don't do that)
- Matt Terenzio
what do you want a feed for, Ike? Which page?
- Kevin Marks
Gillmor suggests by his actions just now that there needs to be a judge(ment). Where is the referee.
- Arnie Klaus
You could build a similar service that displays the comments from FriendFeed related to a specific page in the sidebar. IT's the same API http://ffcheck.com uses. Would you object to that, Robert?
- Ken Sheppardson
I'd be interesting if SideWiki was a wiki
- Ross Mayfield
Robert - remember when I closed my FriendFeed account and you argued that I deleted YOUR comments stream?
- Rob La Gesse
Nobody's modifying what you're trying to display. There's a supplemental app that's displaying additional information about your page, Robert. And you have nothing to say about it, nor should you.
- Ken Sheppardson
Aren't all audiences shared, and the audience owns itself?
- Ross Mayfield
You already do anything you want with pages in your browser.
- Cliff Gerrish
But ken if a plugin said, here Google take this page I want and add all the extra metadata to it and return it to me. That is wrong. It's different than a local client gathering content and displaying the way the enduser wants. technicality, but that is law. and I'm no lawyer
- Matt Terenzio
sidewiki isn't part of anybody's blog. it is an abstraction layer that becomes visible when a sidewiki user visits the blog
- Keith Teare
Do I have the "right" to install ad-blocking plugins? Do I have the "right' to install Greasemonkey or Stylish to change fonts and background colors?
- Ken Sheppardson
actually, Robert's password IS his phone number :)
- Robert J Taylor
But *I* as the reader, am the one making the choice to "deface" the page. It's not as if every visitor is being forced to read those comments. It's MY CHOICE to see them.
- Ken Sheppardson
I did that too, Kevin. It didn't resolve, didn't pull in the very comment I left.
- Ike Pigott
So you don't ever talk about blog posts or web pages on FriendFeed then, right, Stephen?
- Ken Sheppardson
then they choose to see that content, it wasn't forced on them
- Ryan
OK, at the count of three, everyone uninstall Google Toolbar. Then they will just build it into Firefox. And BECOME MS
- Rob La Gesse
Kevin, you're right -- but THOSE posts and comments will be more easily sortable, findable, and addressable. SideWiki is way too chaotic. And since all the SideWiki comments live on GOOGLE domain, they will show up in search eventually!
- Ike Pigott
Ken, hell yes, I do, but that's on FriendFeed and not on somebody's site
- Stephen Pickering
"we had no choice" is the critical aspect that isn't being addressed by wider audiences
- Jay Cuthrell
If I told you that I was using the FriendFeed API to retrieve and display all conversations related to the page I'm visiting in my sidebar, would you object to that, Stephen? See http://ffcheck.com
- Ken Sheppardson
yes Ken, but just because you ask me, I can't legally send a copy of something to you. Not saying they do this here, but I bet they want to soon if they mix it with search data and deliver ads, for example
- Matt Terenzio
They don't all live on Google's domain - that was my point about http://oneforty.com where SideWiki shows the TechCrunch RWW et al posts
- Kevin Marks
people who publish web pages need to host a more friendfeed-like discussion experience if they want to counter the sidewiki effect
- Brian Hendrickson
Steve - that IS an economically feasible plan
- Rob La Gesse
Good. There will be a hell of a push back if it does take off
- Stephen Pickering
This whole industry that attempts to monetize content by framing it in a particular context, i.e. wrapped by ads, is sorta doomed, IMHO. In the long run.
- Ken Sheppardson
Brian I don't see your posts. just mine
- Ron Hudson
Yeah, so what's next, Ken, Google will put its own ads on my site?
- Stephen Pickering
Mike -- DotSpots is the same issue as well. Very good catch.
- Jay Cuthrell
So, what does SideWiki with Wikipedia mean?
- Robert J Taylor
Sidewiki is the new standard for comments on all websites. Just install a Wordpress plugin for bringing Sidewiki entries into your blog comments.
- Charbax
I see yours now Ike, I commented on a different url. SideWiki #fail
- Ron Hudson
No Rob... SideWiki turns blogs into subway cars, in a town that sells permanent infrared spraypaint.
- Ike Pigott
All systems need calibration or the noise takes over.
- Arnie Klaus
Sidewiki will never take off and even if it does, there will be so much push back just like the digg framer that they will discontinue it
- Stephen Pickering
Jay, yeah DotSpots raises the same issues but nobody is talking about them because they're relatively unknown (unlike Google)
- Mike Doeff
I hope Google puts SideWiki in Firefox. That will be the start of the anti-trust investigation
- Rob La Gesse
Sidewiki or something like it will absolutely take off, you just won't know about it.
- Ken Sheppardson
My browser is not your place of business, Robert.
- Ken Sheppardson
plugin functionality is quickly being surpassed by things like Comet/AJAX, so what's next.. who can write AJAX?
- Jerry Schuman
but my site is my place of business (so to speak)
- Robert J Taylor
Your browser isn't but when you can use it to deface his website, it is his place of business
- Stephen Pickering
Jeez... we're going in circles yet again..
- Ken Sheppardson
Google isn't as well known as we'd like to think. Sidewiki should be enabled on every news article ever created. Every news article should have a Wikipedia stub. If Google assists, fine... but I'd rather see the overlay be outside control of any one company.
- Jay Cuthrell
I just pushed SideWiki into my Friendfeed, and my Friendfeed spools into my SideWiki profile, and it hasn't caused me any probl
- Ike Pigott
Transient logic... next big push.. data push first.. logic push next.
- Jerry Schuman
it is a document that is being passed across the web, despite how complicated the creation and distribution is. ultimately it is html and javascript
- Matt Terenzio
Sidewiki needs to bring in Google Reader comments related to the "post"/page it's displaying. That'd be slick.
- Ken Sheppardson
the document comes from a location, or multiple locations
- Matt Terenzio
Sidewiki already brings in relevant related blog posts from blogsearch/google news
- Charbax
Isn't the location metaphor broken, just like the silo metaphor.
- Cliff Gerrish
we're resurrecting "compound document" architectures ala OpenDoc
- Jerry Schuman
Do we truly care who hammed a nail? Or do we mostly care that the nail was hammered properly? (pertaining to "identity")
- Jay Cuthrell
I'd prefer that comments be distributed, and when you view an "entry" or some chunk of content, all the associated, linked comments on and items related to that item can be pulled from wherever they live and displayed for me, subject to filtering I define.
- Ken Sheppardson
You can just load the comments from Google's Sidewiki server by simply copying from the RSS feeds.
- Charbax
I wonder how NASCAR feels about that? ;-) I didn't get that as a top hit relating to mechanical engineering or marketing elements related to car racing.
- Jay Cuthrell
I might... I should.... Nov 3-5 at the Comp History Museum?
- Ken Sheppardson
Still listening to the show, but one idea that doesn't seem to have been brought up on the sidewiki debate is the fact that I can create a custom CSS template for a page (Scobleizer.com for example) and even further change and/or modify a website's appearance and look. What happens when Google creates a proverbial "sideCSS" widget to allow everyone easy access to modify the look of...
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- Chris Aldrich
Doesn't RSS already strip all the formatting from a website in order to transport one level of value?
- Cliff Gerrish
Not every site has RSS. haven't you heard it's dead?
- Matt Terenzio
I want to repeat my prediction that - after a period of much hype - Google Wave will fizzle. A lot of ideas contained in Wave will find their way to the mainstream, but in other ways, through other channels. Not many ideas in Wave are unique though.
With "fizzling" I do not mean it won't find a niche somewhere. Practically anything good finds a niche. FriendFeed has found a niche too. But Wave is *not* the successor to email. And will also not in any way be a major second platform besides the web.
- Meryn Stol
wave is meant to happen like that - it is a protocol after all, so anyone can built interoperable toys or tools that can run over wave, which can also interface which just about any other network. And because of the distributed nature, they dont have to host it all themselves. That lowers the barrier of entry for testing ideas yet again. And what you built won't ask users to duplicate...
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- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
I don't see why one would have to take the whole Wave protocol for that. I think the Wave protocol is too big. Adoption of the ideas inside Wave will happen more granular, by existing players. Of course we get compatibility between networks... But why not go on tightening the ropes we've already laid out? Integration of Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, FriendFeed, Google Reader is humming along just fine. Now suddenly everyone will need to talk "Wave"?
- Meryn Stol
Wake me up when prominent people from major networks (esp. Twitter, Facebook), or major open source projects say Wave is the future. I have the feeling all these Wave fanboys are - relatively - at the periphery of the tech world.
- Meryn Stol
Just to be clear: What do I expect instead? Twitter, FriendFeed, Facebook, etc integrating more tightly via things like activitystrea,ms, openid, pubsubhubbub, possibly XMPP hacks and the like.
- Meryn Stol
you always care so much about "prominent people" - who cares what they analysts say, they hype things that vanish all the time, and snub things that turn out to be hugely useful all the time. They ignore as much as they report, often by tactical choice for their brand rather than real analysis.
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
I guess many are early adopters so that they have the edge if/when something new turns up. Some want to be ahead of the mainstream and ditch it when it becomes too popular.
- Jemm
I love what Google Wave is: [theoretically] self-hostable, open source, standards-based. but there will only ever be one [in]complete implementation of it if it took all of Google's resources, 40 people, 2 years to create this first partially complete version.
- Brian Hendrickson
I havent even seen wave so I cant comment, but to me the future is most certainly distributed - people want control of their interactions, their content etc. they dont want their stuff to disappear without notice, and they dont want to have to manually replicate their network for every task. Google wave is simply the next generation of xmpp, with added persistence and threading.
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
As I said, Wave's ideas WILL find their way into the mainstream (I'm not merely talking about its UI or end-user features), it will just happen through a more evolutionary path from where we are now.
- Meryn Stol
I am totally in agreement with you on that front - as a matter of fact, you really sounded like me early in this thread "it's not *that* new and not *that* game changing" ;)
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
Joelle, have you taken a look at Directeur's SocNode project? That's how simple distributed real-time social networking nodes can be. http://www.socnode.org/
- Meryn Stol
I would like to find out for myself. If only...
- Jim in Real Time
"... a new feature we're testing with a small subset of users. The idea is to allow people to curate lists of Twitter accounts. For example, you could create a list of the funniest Twitter accounts of all time, athletes, local businesses, friends, or any compilation that makes sense."
- Meryn Stol
from Bookmarklet
"this is really neat and everything worked smoothly when I tried it out. now pondering how a long-poll and rssCloud callback could update my River2."
- Brian Hendrickson
"that's how I designed my rssCloud Rest/DNS server.. when you make a new zone like supercloud.org, it puts an A record there at the top level and then starts pumping out new TXT records for the subdomains"
- Brian Hendrickson
Welcome Baby Ryan!!! My baby Ryan (17 years!) and I are honored to welcome another superstar to our planet! Love, hugs, and lots of kisses to Baby Ryan, Mommy Maryam, Dad Robert and big brothers Milan & Patrick and of course Grandma!!! My guess on Ryan's arrival (predication) was only 23 hours off. I thought he would arrive on Friday, Sept. 18th at 11:45 pm. Love to all, Kelly & Ryan Kim
- Kelly S. Kim
What a moment, eh? I remember when my daughter came into this world, it was so exciting there were no words for it. Congrats on your wonderful baby boy!
- Michael J. Carrasquillo
Congratulations! Welcome to the world, Ryan. :-)
- Yvette Ferry
Congratulations Robert and Maryam! And welcome Ryan. If I was having a baby today, I'd begin a blog for him/her straight away as an online diary they could look back on when grown up.
- Sandra Large
الهــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــی چقده ناز نازیه.اینو فارسی نوشتم مریم جان بخونن ....راستی به باباش که نرفته:)) خوشگلتره:)) پس به شما رفته
- joupy
I was a c-section six week preemie in an era when that was seriously life-threatening, they didn't know if I would make for the first week. It always gets me a see a c-section / preemie come howling into the world. Welcome, little guy!
- Bob Morris (polizeros)
from iPhone
Beautiful baby! Congratulations daddy man :)
- Gary
:) Congrats Robert... best wishes to your family! Get her name in twitter and ff!
- Business Blogger【ツ】™
Right ON! I am so happy for you. I have 4 kids of my own and they are my greatest joys. Take care and I hope all goes so smooth for him and mom.
- Robert Anderson
Congrats! I wish a long and healthy life.
- Muammer Okumuş
Robert, you newest addition is too freaking adorable. I hope you and Maryam are doing well. Congratulations! Here's to a long, prosperous future!
- Mike Nayyar
They have me waiting outside while they prepare to surgically deliver Ryan Soroush Scoble. His life should start within minutes. I wonder what he will be like? What technologies will he see in his lifetime?
- Robert Scoble
from email
"This is working pretty well, send me an e-mail if you'd like to try it out. brian@megapump.com The source code is published on github: http://github.com/voitto... #################### ## creating a zone record #################### POST vars --------------- name = "george" record = "TXT" feedname = "george.loose.ly" key = md5( subdomain.record.value.pass ) where period concatenates values of these post vars and "pass" contains password value API endpoint ------------------------------ http://cloud.twitteronia.com/api... New zone record ------------------------------ | 14 | 9 | george | TXT | | 0 | 86400 | george.loose.ly | #################### ## updating the feedname #################### POST vars --------------- name = "george" record = "TXT" feedname = "george.twitteronia.com" key = md5( subdomain.record.value.pass ) where period concatenates values of these post vars and "pass" contains password value API endpoint ------------------------------..."
- Brian Hendrickson
This is basically just an extension to OPML. Not sure why it's necessary when OPML more or less seems sufficient?
- Chris Messina
Chris, can you make OPML say that a url points to a Twitter user? I thought OPML was just for pointing to feeds. Pointing to a feed (together with a free-text title) is quite a bit different than saying: Hey, here's a Twitter user you can subscribe to, or go talk to, or analyze with Twitter Grader or a plethora of other tools. I think that for OPML to be a replacement for this, I think...
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- Meryn Stol
I dislike the TweepML spec because it uses "screen_name" as the primary identifier (in the simplest case). Screen names are not fixed, anybody can change theirs to any unused one at any time, and the "follow" remains. While you can put the ID in there, it's optional, which is bad. Using the RSS feed gives you the internal Twitter ID number, which never changes, and with that feed, you...
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- Otto
Otto, I don't think an OPML document - at this moment - can carry the semantics of pointing to Twitter users in particular (as opposed to pointing to any kind of feed or web page). So for automated processing - for example, support by web browsers! - OPML currently does not suffice. Or we would need to rely on "URL sniffing". Then browsers would need to hardcode something like the...
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- Meryn Stol
One other possible - and promising - direction would be to introduce a HTML microformat to indicate a link to a Twitter user. Something like <a href="http://twitter.com/meryn" rel="twitteruser">meryn</a>. This could be picked up by browser plugins. No need for a separate TweepML page then.
- Meryn Stol
:confused: I don't understand the issue here. If the feed starts with twitter.com then it's a twitter feed. You don't need special semantics to identify a twitter user specifically. That's completely unnecessary and kinda silly. Same goes for the microformat, why require people to add all this extra crap just to prevent, literally, one line of parsing code?
- Otto
My point is that it's utterly pointless to invent a new format when an old one fits just fine. Especially if your purpose in the new format is to make your coding.. well.. not any easier. How is it harder to recognize twitter.com than having to look for extra tags or examine the content of the rel attribute? Short answer: It's not. A "browser plugin" could just as easily read the bare...
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- Otto
Now I thought about it a little more, the obvious use case for a tweepml file is simply to open it with a Twitter client which supports the file format. So it's not so much a matter of browser support, it's a matter of Twitter client support. This special file format makes a lot of sense. OPML is too generic.
- Meryn Stol
Would be cool as well if Twitter itself would start to support TweepML format for its "following" and "followed by" pages.
- Meryn Stol
The Twitter ID number should be the primary identifier, with the Username provided as an optional additional field. Then both could be read directly by a client program, without additional Twitter web scraping or API calls, which would be more convenient than OPML, currently the best compromise.
- Mike Chelen
I'm not sure what the issue is that OPML doesn't address directly. We had twitter user lists and browsable / drill-down-able packages of users a few years ago (using just OPML). I'll see if I can dig up an example.
- mikepk
Bah drives me crazy again. One of the services we shut down when I left. The Grazr Twitter Reader API would let you chose a user, and get a package of their followed list that would let you drill down through it. OPML does a lot more than people realize (inclusion is a really neat concept people never quite 'got')
- mikepk
plus OPML can easily be extended with a namespace to add the user ID if that was really needed (without requiring breaking OPML or adding a new spec)
- mikepk
I think the main point that we always tried to do with OPML was to build on a base spec. That way, even with namespace extensions, the core list would still work in things like feed readers (for pulling in the feeds) and other OPML aware applications. Applications that understood the additional namespace could add additional functionality. The need to always create new specs is damaging in a lot of ways when the old ones can get the job done.
- mikepk
mikepk: could someone do that then? the situation that occurs is having a list of Twitter usernames, it is useful to find and save their ID numbers, in case of username change. right now that is done often with basic CSV, or hacking the username into the OPML feed title
- Mike Chelen
Twitter already supports XFN by linking to someone's friends using rel-contact. They also markup the contact list in microformats. I suppose getting a full list of someone's friends is currently challenging, but I guess in general I question the creation of new formats where others exist (though, starting with OPML seems fine).
- Chris Messina
I think OPML + a clean namespace would solve this problem 100% and still maintain compaitibility with OPML aware apps (like feed readers). Unfortunately, after I left Grazr, we shut down all the advanced feed applications we had (sniff), so the Twitter Reader no longer works. That would have been a good example.
- mikepk
So assuming we have a namespace of "supertwit" you could create outline nodes that look like this: <outline supertwit:userid="IDNUM" text="mikepk" type="rss" xmlUrl="http://twitter.com/statuse..." htmlUrl="http://twitter.com/mikepk" />
- mikepk
I still think a new format (with a new mime-type) is by far the easiest way to get a list of Twitter users loaded into a Twiter client like Tweetdeck. Otherwise, all OPML clients (what are OPML desktop clients anyway? I don't know any?) should support either Twitter natively, or support forwarding the mentioned Twitter users to a user-configured Twitter client. That just doesn't make sense.
- Meryn Stol
I kinda think that you don't quite understand the whole purpose of OPML in specific, and XML in general. OPML is designed to be able to exchange lists of feeds between feed readers. If you want to extend it with twitter specific extensions, then you could do that with a namespace. No existing OPML capable clients would have to be modified to support your extensions, that's the whole...
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- Otto
Otto, I do understand both OPML and the concept of namespaces. Can you please explain to me how I'd ever get Firefox to push Twitter-specific data inside an OPML file to Tweetdeck? Or how would you have in mind that I'd get Twitter usernames communicated to a Twitter client otherwise? Also, Tweepml is not my spec. Why would you think so? I just saw it, thought it was a great initiative, and shared it here. I'm just defending a great idea.
- Meryn Stol
Can you explain how you'd ever get Firefox to push OPML to anything, period? If you can do that, then I'll explain how you can add support for additional namespaces. Fact is that you're going to have to write the code to generate the ML file anyway. The choice of format is not a software support issue, it's a compatibility issue. By using straight OPML with add-ons, you instantly have...
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- Otto
Otto, you're *really* missing my point of the usefulness of specific mime-types... Do you know why mime-types were invented? They are a crucial element of HTTP. It's part of what makes the protocol so powerful.
- Meryn Stol
I understand MIME types, but you don't need a whole new incompatible file format to switch to a different MIME type.
- Otto
Ok so you propose serving OPML with a more specific mime-type? E.g. not text/x-opml but something more specific? What about text/x-opml-tweeps? Something like that?
- Meryn Stol
All desktop feed readers will consume OPML, as will outliners (but that's a niche-y kind of thing). There are also lots of feed meta-tools that use OPML, as grazr once did. By using OPML with a namespace, you get the benefit of your format being immediately useful to a very large set of applications, otherwise you have to hope people implement your unique spec. Having a unique mime type doesn't seem to bring enough benefit to overshadow those points IMHO. You clearly disagree :)
- mikepk
I'm generally of the opinion that MIME type doesn't make quite the difference you think it does. Format is much more important. People can make their browser send to their app of choice manually, all having a MIME type standard does is to let apps tell the browser, in advance, that they can deal with that type. On the whole, MIME type is a platonic ideal, it doesn't have much real-world application that matters.
- Otto
additionally, nothing says you can't define a new mime type to serve the opml as, if you *really* wanted to.
- mikepk
I really don't understand the resistance to this nice little spec... I think it's about on the level of KML. Just *useful*. Not world changing, but nice for exchange of twitter usernames just like KML is nice for interchanging geographical data.
- Meryn Stol
Personal opinion I guess. There's a sliding scale between using existing formats that makes the data available and useful to all the applications that already understand that format, and needing something truly unique to represent your data but by definition making it a highly niche format that will only be useful in a handful of applications (if they implement it). The more general you...
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- mikepk
Agree that an opml extension would be best, but the TweepML folks have built something pretty neat and it looks like it could be a fun and useful tool
- Brian Hendrickson
Meryn: There's nothing wrong with the *idea* of it, I'd just prefer it if they used a format that would already work with all my existing software. OPML is well known and understood and supported. Libraries already exist for it. Adding it to twitter client programs would be trivial. This format, OTOH, is not supported by anything I use, and therefore is useless to me.
- Otto
Example: I can't take a TweepML file and import it into my Google Reader. If they used an OPML extension, I could import it there and instantly get all my followers as feeds.
- Otto
Best solution would be to serve the information in both OPML (text/x-opml) and in Tweepml (whatever the proposed mime-type is). Then the user can both use generic tools, and have it automatically forwared to their Twitter client of choice. But I personally doubt many people want to add Twitter users to their feed reader, or any other generic RSS tool. Twitter is a world in itself. A...
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- Meryn Stol
Just the same, some people like to consume geo-data through a GeoRSS element embedded into feeds. Others like to consume it through KML files. But a KML file can be configured to always open in Google Earth. It wouldn't make sense to let a browser forward all rss feeds to Google Earth.
- Meryn Stol
On the contrary, I used that specific example for a reason: a *lot* of people have been doing exactly that lately, exporting their Twitter feeds into Google Reader. Dave Winer wrote a tool to do exactly that: http://rsscloud.org/twitter... and several people commented on it and have been using it. Also see http://www.google.com/search...
- Otto
otto, I must say that I don't have stats handy, but I think that people using Google Reader for Twitter feeds really represent a niche. In any case, I expect dedicated Twitter clients (or at least, clients that go beyond the feed, taking "users" or "people" as their starting point) to win handsomely in the future shoot-out. "Feeds" do have their place, and will always have, but the people-oriented web is rising fast.
- Meryn Stol
It's not a niche, it's being actively done by some rather big names in the biz. Might want to read the comments here as well: http://www.scripting.com/stories...
- Otto
Just to be clear, I think Dave Winer lives in quite a bubble. He's not representative of most users. not even the typical early adopter. I'd be wary if I found myself to be referring to one particular old guy from the valley too much.
- Meryn Stol
That doesn't mean I don't want to take OPML (or anything else) away from you, or anyone else. It's just that for other users, other solutions - like dedicated formats to talk about Twitter users, or tweets, or retweets) might be very appropriate. There are enough Twitter clients out their to warrant development of standard exchange formats.
- Meryn Stol
I don't disagree with you on the need for a format to do this sort of thing... I disagree on the need for a custom format that doesn't work with anything else, especially when it verges on trivial to simply add what you need into OPML. Furthermore, the existing OPML created by that tool already gives you all the necessary information to transmit lists of Twitter users. No other data is really *required*. If I was a Twitter client developer, I'd program support for the OPML idea first, not for this format.
- Otto
At least we need a new mime-type to make it carry the *semantics* of point to a Twitter user. How else could a browser know to what app to forward a downloaded file to? I don't see a browser actually "sniffing" inside an OPML file to see if it contains "twitter.com/" as a viable solution.
- Meryn Stol
Why do you need the browser to know where to send the file? Are you incapable of picking your Twitter client from a list? Furthermore, nobody really uses only one Twitter client, which one gets the data in your MIME type scenario?
- Otto
Well ask some regular internet users if they're happy that their KML files open in Google Earth. I expect they'll answer affirmative.
- Meryn Stol
Many internet users like to open the KML files in Google Maps, actually, since it supports them too. Also, KML is a special use case, since location data like that actually does not fit into OPML or any other existing format. But take it as an example: If you were going to develop something that fit into KML, would you make a new, incompatible, format for it?
- Otto
Well you can probably bind the mime-type to Google Maps too... The point is that it's useful to be explicit about what data ends up where, even if you use - say - three "Geo" clients (GMaps, GEarth, MSN Earth) and three Twitter clients, at least you only have to choose from a group of three.
- Meryn Stol
Do you have a program on your machine that supports the OPML mime type now, other than perhaps a single feed reader? Is it really so hard to pick a twitter client from a list of a twitter client and a feed reader?
- Otto
Not going to argue anymore... This is typical - unproductive- arguing. Let's look back at this thread a few months later from now.
- Meryn Stol
My point is that OPML is specifically designed for this. There's nothing special about a Twitter user's feed. It's just another form of blog, with very small posts. The RSS feed contains those posts. And an OPML contains a list of those feeds. QED.
- Otto
Meryn, don't think of this as an attack on you. I left it as we can 'agree to disagree' but I understand the negative reaction to another spec. It may seem harmless to create a unique spec for every slight variation of data format, but it makes developers lives worse, throws out any 'baked in' experience with existing specs, and fractures data making it less useful overall. Then again, you never know what specs actually get implemented vs. not implemented so only time will tell if this gets used or not.
- mikepk
Mike, I think that I've been mostly arguing for introducing another mime-type. I don't care much what particular serialization format is used in the end. But browsers do need to know if they're receiving information about Twitter users or just regular feeds. There's a big difference in semantics there. You can do many things with Twitter users which you can't do with feeds. E.g. You...
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- Meryn Stol
I already said that another solution would be to introduce an "OPML switchboard" which would intelligently handle different kind of links inside an OPML file (much the same as a browser really, based on mime-types or pseudo mime-types appearing inside each OPML entry). But I think that with simply using microformats inside HTML we would be much closer to a solution then. Such a "switchboard" could be implemented pretty fast with a Firefox plugin I suppose.
- Meryn Stol
If you have a Twitter users feed address, then you can find out all you ever want or need to know about the Twitter user. Here's my Twitter feed: http://twitter.com/statuse... The "link" tag inside the "channel" contains my current twitter url (and by extension, my username). With that info, you can do anything you like. Furthermore, my username can change. That feed URL will never change, no matter what I change my username to.
- Otto
Furthermore, if you examine the Twitter API, it will take either ID numbers or usernames for all identification fields. The ID number is right there in the feed link itself, so you can get any info you want from the API without even retrieving the feed. If you know my ID is 7016582 (from the feed url) then you can retrieve http://twitter.com/users... to see everything about me.
- Otto
Meryn, there's a happy medium here too. All of these formats are just XML, it's up to the server to serve it as a particular mime type. You could easily define a new xml mime-type for the twitter user bundle and just have the server use it. I'd have to do some research but off the top of my head I don't know of any cases where a namespace extension to a format is served as a new mime-type, but I can't think of any reason why not. Does GeoRSS have a mimetype. I'd have to look.
- mikepk
No, GeoRSS is not a MIME type, it's an extension that you can put in RSS2 (application/rss+xml), ATOM (application/atom+xml) or RSS1 (application/rdf+xml). Most generators I've seen use one of those or sometimes just application/xml. The whole thing about MIME types is overblown anyway. They're just not that darned useful in real world applications. Sure, they're fine to hook a format...
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- Otto
But again, if it's not a big deal, and there's some utility for twitter clients, why not serve it as a new mime type? MIME is extensible too (just have to look up the mechanism). That gets the best of both worlds, standard spec + functionality for desktop stuff if it's warranted.
- mikepk
The correct mime type for OPML is either text/xml or text/x-opml. Technically, that last one should be text/x-opml+xml to identify it as an XML document, but Radio Userland used text/x-opml back in the day and it stuck. Anyway, you could easily just say text/x-whatever+xml if you really wanted to target twitter clients, but that has the same compatibility issues as a new format. Your...
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- Otto
My main concern is simply that I don't see how this TweepML spec actually adds anything that you can't do with OPML, with no extensions. A twitter feed *is* the user. There's no more information that I really need. I can grab the ID number from the feed URL and directly follow that user. One Twitter API call. Nothing more is necessary. I don't need the username at all to follow a user or even to see his tweets. ID's and usernames are 100% interchangable, everywhere.
- Otto
Note: TweepML doesn't define a MIME type, they're returning their data as text/xml.
- Otto
Otto, then the standard is more or less worthless in its current incarnation. No mime-type means no semantics.
- Meryn Stol
"I made a REST API like this, you can find the documentation at http://cloud.twitteronia.com - would love to have feedback here on whether it works. Thanks! -- Brian"
- Brian Hendrickson
You can try this in practice all day long and never succeed and he does it against a difficult opponent, in the semi-final of a grand-slam ,,, hat's off!
- Rene Wirtz
I remember first seeing a "tweener" (between the legs shot) hit by Gabriela Sabatini (the "sabatweeny") but it's very rare that you see someone hit a [winner] with that shot - a "twinner" :-)
- Brian Hendrickson