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Cameron Neylon › Comments

Walt Crawford
Serious question and quandary: Someone hearing about the new OA journal analysis I'm doing says, in essence, "I assume you'll make the spreadsheet available for crowdsourced verification and further analysis." I do not see this as being a good idea, and if pushed on it would be inclined to drop the project ...
I'd hate to do that at this point, since I've already looked at (individually) 7,818 out of around 11,500 journals and "journals" in the project. But I'm using a variety of approximation techniques to make the project less overwhelming, and I can just see, e.g., Beall downloading the spreadsheet, finding that my numbers (which will NEVER be used citing individual journals) are off for two or three journals, and... - Walt Crawford
... proclaiming "See? I said Crawford's stuff was bilge." (He's already used that word.) Whereas, of course, JB simply avoids facts, sticking with "I suspect" and "It seems unlikely" and the like. - Walt Crawford
Anyway, if it's really Improper for me to do this work--which will lead, as in the July '14 C&I, to discussions of patterns, NOT of individual journals--and NOT make the spreadsheets available, then I may very well give it up, blowing seven weeks of effort but saving 4-6 more weeks. - Walt Crawford
So: the question: Am I being unreasonable? If I'm unwilling to make the spreadsheets available, should I just drop the project? Advice very much wanted. (As I go off and do the next 10 journals...) - Walt Crawford
It's a good open data question. I can see a lot of value in the release of the data--if you're clear both a readme file and the final document about how/what you've summarized and approximated. JB's going to be skeptical anyway;he's already decided against you, I would try not to make this decision based on him (which is hard!). In my mind sharing the data gives your work/words more... more... - Hedgehog
You are in no way obliged to. I think it would be interesting and useful to others though. Whether you do or don't, you should be transparent about your approximation techniques. Then if you do make the dataset open and people complain a number is off you can just say "Well duh, see how I talked about approximation techniques? Feel free to make a better dataset if you've got the months/years of time spare." But if you don't want to make the dataset open, that doesn't mean the rest of the project is useless. - Deborah Fitchett
I think my reaction might very well be the same. The spreadsheets weren't "designed" for crowdsourcing, and the whole thing makes me nervous as hell. Of course, I could just blank out all the journal names, but that would make the spreadsheets close to worthless... - Walt Crawford
Deborah: My response was to Hedgehog. Yes, I do plan to discuss the shortcuts/approximations used, as I normally would. Thanks for the additional thoughts. - Walt Crawford
Is there a small representative sample that you could show to explain how you evaluated the data, and to explain how some people might interpret some things differently, and then say that the big spreadsheets are available on request? But then I wonder if JB would bother to ask for the data. Would he do that so he could nitpick? - Joe
Joe: Yes, if I go to the extra work on a sample--although there are two issues, evaluation (is this an A, B, or C?) and actual counting (where I've used shortcuts at times). In either case, then I'd need to (a) prepare a readme in some detail and (b) respond to requests. Grant funding for this project has been notoriously lacking... - Walt Crawford
I guess what I'm saying is "Is it irresponsible to not make the data available?" in which case maybe the best bet is to shut down the project. Deborah's saying it's *not* irresponsible; I appreciate that. - Walt Crawford
bump: I could really use a little more feedback on this, if anybody else is interested. - Walt Crawford
It's much easier saying what you should do with your data than doing it with my data. I totally get what you're saying. My thoughts were: I didn't document enough, my code (or calculations) done in Excel were done the hard way, the data are dirty, maybe someone else will see something in there I missed.... But as not you, I really think you should try to release under a cc-0 license or... more... - Christina Pikas
also, you are looking for sponsorship or more publishing opportunities, I think, and this could bring more attention and respect for your work. More trust from the people you want to attract. - Christina Pikas
oh and it's not irresponsible to not share. but it is generous to share. i doubt beall would take the time and effort to re-do your analysis. I really do. And if he does, so what! - Christina Pikas
Christina: Thanks for that. The odds of sponsorship are so low that I've mostly given up, and I've cut back on publishing opportunities for the moment. I'll have to think about this. - Walt Crawford
So its a bit late now but I always now try to figure out at the beginning of an analysis what can and can't be (easily) shared and bear that in mind as I work on something. I would always err on the side of release, even where its messy because the upsides generally are larger than the downsides. Problem is the upsides are all less noisy than certain downsides. If it were me, under... more... - Cameron Neylon
Turns out the person suggesting release is actually suggesting release of the spreadsheet(s) used in the July article--and alternatively suggests that I recruit a small team of experts who could reanalyze/deepen the analysis. Not likely to happen, honestly. I'm now satisfied that it's not reprehensible/irresponsible to *not* release the spreadsheets. Beyond that...well, I'll keep thinking about it. Thanks all for your help. - Walt Crawford
[Curiously, just reading a long discussion involving "reanalysis" of data, in an entirely different field, and it doesn't encourage me: basically says that the only reason people reanalyze is to attempt to refute] - Walt Crawford
… in related news, this conversation is useful for us as we think about trying to persuade our colleagues to release their data. it nicely illustrates the pros & cons of data sharing in our discipline. And I agree with all the points listed above. :-/ - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
Bumping only because I just did a blog post about this...http://walt.lishost.org/2014... - Walt Crawford
Hmmm...interesting. The clinical trial analogy isn't a bad one. Also makes you realise that if you 'anonymised' the dataset then re-identification wouldn't be hard. I think there is some value in such a dataset (looking at correlations, subsets etc) but given the re-identification risk the work involved in effective anonymisation might be more than its worth. - Cameron Neylon
Thanks, Cameron. Others? (I should probably publicize the blog post on Google+, since OAfolk seem to hang out there. Will do so.) (Have now done so.) - Walt Crawford
I could see value in releasing *just* the names (and maybe URLs if you're feeling generous) of the journals/publishers you looked at, with NO accompanying information -- well, maybe column headers, but no more than that. That way, if we (writ large; it's a tempting crowdsourcing project) want to do the reanalysis, we can gather our own damn data and it's not on you if we do. No obligation, just a thought. - RepoRat
As I noted elsewhere, I'm perfectly willing to do that. (For the Beall and OASPA lists, the URLs "come with"--they're hyperlinked journal and/or publisher names. For the DOAJ list, which is of course just a subset of the downloadable DOAJ dataset as of May 2014, they're a separate column, but leaving 'em in is no more work than taking 'em out. For Beall, some fraction of journal cells would *not* have hyperlinks because of problems in downloading title lists from the publishers.) - Walt Crawford
aaron
Depositing articles into Institutional repositories isn't Open Access because it usually isn't CC-BY? http://poynder.blogspot.co.uk/2014...
Must say I am so confused on practical matters beyond definitional issues. So for Pre-prints you can generally choose the licenses you want including CC-BY, while for post prints and final versions you are limited to what the publishers allow and almost always they don't allow CC-BY? - aaron
Say for example i have a paper in Library Management and I check Sherpa-romeo it says okay post-print in IRs. Can I use CC-BY or any other CC license (CC-BY-NC etc) for that matter? - aaron
The whole piece starts from the wrong perspective. It sets up an opposition between journal-mediated OA and repository-mediated OA on the basis that repositories can't choose licenses. Repositories can, of course, choose licenses (or let authors do so) if they ensure that authors retain sufficient rights. Whether its done through journals or repositories, getting liberal licensing requires some political will on part of the community to tell publishers how its going to be. - Cameron Neylon
Short answer: To post anything anywhere under any license you need the rights to do so. If you've given them away you can't. If you don't give them away you can. There is some confusion over whether differing versions of the manuscript are subject to copyright transfer agreements. - Cameron Neylon
My frustration is that the tenor of the argument (publishers are pushing for CC BY) is absolutely wrong. The traditional publishers are pushing for CC NC with them owning the copyright. Picking fights amongst ourselves over licensing, rather than working together to ensure authors retain copyright is playing right into their hands. - Cameron Neylon
I have to say, though, I'm with Royster on "the OA movement has repeatedly and callously screwed IR managers and libraries." But you knew that. - RepoRat
...not all OA advocates</sarcasm>...or is that</irony>? not sure... - Cameron Neylon
...but more seriously, a lot of that screwing has come from precisely the people pushing Royster's agenda (and a lot from others not pushing that agenda to be fair). But I don't see why we can't celebrate Royster's success (and others) as a model that takes us some distance but not the whole way. While exploring the options for going the whole way through repositories (via rights retention and licensing) and through journals and licensing. - Cameron Neylon
Put it this way. Elsevier folks are approvingly retweeting Poynder on this... - Cameron Neylon
Well, I agree, Cameron, but Paul's right that this is exactly what SPARC and the CC-BYnauts refuse to do. (I will say that I do *not* understand Paul's infatuation with H-rn-d. If there's a more anti-library voice anywhere in OA, it's Poynder himself.) - RepoRat
As for "Royster's agenda," it strikes me as an "actually get shit done" agenda, and I approve... especially having been hamstrung by my own workplaces as far as the shit they would actually allow me to get done. Now, what Royster doesn't completely get is that his success is rather sui generis -- even I, whose skills parallel his, couldn't do what he has -- but he's 100% right that he got shit done because he blew all the way past the parameters of what an IR is "supposed" to do. - RepoRat
Yeh, sorry, "agenda" is a loaded term and I shouldn't have used it. And I completely agree with the "gsd" idea. But I can't help but feel that he is over-reacting to a mis-interpretation of the SPARC position (exacerbated to be fair by anti-repo folks, who in turn are frustrated by non-delivery by many IRs which in turn is due to a lack of institutional support/vision/understanding). - Cameron Neylon
...or to put it another way, everyone is frustrated by the limitations of progress. While in fact in diverse ways there is lots of progress. But the frustration has us shouting at each other rather than combining to take on the real problem. - Cameron Neylon
True enough. I still think Royster is more sinned against than sinning, however. - RepoRat
Yeh, I don't know the history there. But I was there in Kansas City. Heather's point was always that with good progress towards public access we need to ensure that traditional publishers don't grab a rhetorical position around equating ability to read with 'Open Access' and from there to the idea that we're finished. It's precisely about combatting CHORUS and trad publisher initiatives... more... - Cameron Neylon
tl;dr I think we're burning a lot of energy on each other rather than focussing it where needed. And Poynder seems to fan the flames. What we'll be left with is some good repositories where we can read stuff and everything else is CC NC with copyright held by Elsevier. - Cameron Neylon
Agree that we need to focus on authors who should keep the copyright. However, from surveys I've seen, most/many authors would want to license their work CC-BY-NC, so in a way it is a positive for many OA publishers to license their works as CC-BY. - Joe
Of only it were the case that AUTHORS retained control over the commercial uses when journals publish with the CC-BY-NC license. Usually, it's the publisher that retains control over future commercial uses. - DJF from Android
Which points to the real root problem, IMO: ignorance, mostly though not exclusively among faculty. (I ain't never gon' get over Mike "can't trust IRs! they're run by libraries! let's put everything in arXiv!" Taylor.) - RepoRat
" If there's a more anti-library voice anywhere in OA, it's Poynder himself." Sigh and I thought I was finally starting to understand the complexities of Open Access by reading through the State of Open Access interviews. Poynder reads very librarian friendly to me, a newbie to this area..... harnad makes sense to me though dont get the repetition thing he does. - aaron
"What we'll be left with is some good repositories where we can read stuff and everything else is CC NC with copyright held by Elsevier." Sorry, another newbie question. This is bad because? datamining? - aaron
This is bad because authors are the ones who should have the final say in how their work is used, not Elsevier. And the model you quote eliminates A LOT of uses. A friend of mine just published an edited collection of papers on bioethics, and she had to leave out a core article because the PUBLISHER wanted too high a licensing fee. Which means that the original author isn't being read. - DJF from Android
Poynder's interviewees are well-selected and the interviews are worth reading, but he can certainly slant a question when he wants to. (Shieber in particular calls him on it several times.) He also periodically writes some damn thing slamming libraries for Not Doing Enough for OA. I largely quit reading everything except his interviews in, like, 2008 or so because of that. When POYNDER loses a career for caring too much about OA, he can tell me I ain't done enough. Until then, he can STFU. - RepoRat
@Aaron So some (many) authors don't want commercial use of their work and so they get slanted towards an NC license. If they hold the rights then I'm kind of ok with this because when we convince them of the one true way (TM) they have the option to relicense. Or if someone comes along with a commercial use that they like they can specifically license that. Not great, but not so bad.... more... - Cameron Neylon
Cameron, I've come to the conclusion that owning the copyright is a red herring. It's common for large publishers to say, "author keeps the copyright, we publish it NC, and we are the ones who license commercial uses." So I talk about control and decision-making, not copyright, because it's me general and avoids the confusion caused by publishers going for the "author retains copyright" checkbox. - DJF from Android
@DJF, yes you're quite right. We've just changed wording in an updated version of the Open Access Spectrum for precisely that reason. 'Author retains full rights to assign rights' is a bit of a mouthful though :-) - Cameron Neylon
So if authors never ever sign over copyrights... the whole argument abt green vs gold is mostly moot and we all live happily ever after? - aaron
Life would be a lot easier, yeah. A simple author permission, which isn't too hard to come by, would let a librarian or a grant agency grab up manuscripts to make OA, and all the tedious arguments about text-mining wouldn't come up. Much bizarro permissions stuff would also vanish, though in fairness it must be said that skeevy republication outlets would likely become much more of a thing. - RepoRat
Yep, and that's the core of my issue with the dustup. There's nothing in principle stopping an institution ensuring that it or its authors can make docs available on a repository under any desired license. There's nothing inherent in publisher-route OA that makes licensing easier. In both cases the community needs to demand either the licenses they want or the right to license as they... more... - Cameron Neylon
This is one of those surprisingly meaty FF threads that I hope stays around. Dunno that I have much to add, except that I find that thinking of Poynder as "Harnad with less repetition and a little more subtlety" makes it easier to understand his posts. - Walt Crawford
Walt Crawford
Turns out I was quoted, sort of, in the Nature article (which, unsurprisingly, is still slanted towards Beall, but is really about DOAJ): http://www.nature.com/news...
[I found out about this from Lars at DOAJ first. Off to hike shortly, back in a few hours.] - Walt Crawford
Yep just saw it - does seem rather uncritically slanted to Beal but maybe Richard's at least read some more of your analysis and taken it in. - Cameron Neylon
He did get the facts right, so I won't choose to fault him, although I'd say "more than 90% of DOAJ journals, even under the old rules, don't fall into Beall's broad categories of questionable journals" is more to the point than "900 journals on DOAJ might be questionable." But it's his story... - Walt Crawford
Cameron Neylon
Damnit. Found a recording of the choruses from Death of Klinghoffer - that's going to be a bad earworm...never seen a video of a performance tho which always surprises me...
Ok, I stand corrected. DVD of the (UK) Channel 4 film is available - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
"That would work for Danah's book but not for Foucault. It only exists online as scanned copies and pretty ropey OCR'd version that I could find." - Cameron Neylon
Walt Crawford
Came *this* close to commenting at SKitch, with Joe Esposito blathering about how much he's irked by university librarians with $50 million budgets being contemptuous of university presses. I'm guessing Joe believes there are dozens or hundreds of such university libraries. In fact, as of 2012 data, there are ten (10) in the U.S.
So since he speaks of being irked as something that occurs a lot, he'd have a pretty short list of candidates. But not gonna go there: I know better than to enter the SKitch hall of mirrors. - Walt Crawford
[And as to the Go Big or Go Home: I'm eventually working on an informal essay about the *dis*economies of scale, apparently, where non-med/bio Gold OA is concerned: How so many libraries, colleges and associations can afford to run smallish OA journals without APC.] - Walt Crawford
If you're wondering: Harvard, Yale, Stanford, USC, Michigan, Columbia, NYU, Penn State, Princeton, UCLA. Yes, I know, Berkeley should be on that list, but Berkeley lost a lot of budget over the period 2002-2012, and is just now getting *part* of it back. Berkeley, Cornell, UT Austin and UIUC would be next up, but all under $50 big ones. - Walt Crawford
There are some interesting diseconomies of scale that emerge across the board. One that ONE is dealing with is that it has to deal systematically with all sorts of misbehaviour and odd occurrences that most journals would only ever see one or two examples of, so they take an ad hoc approach. Raises some interesting questions about what we miss about the issues in the literature because... more... - Cameron Neylon
I won't be writing anything deep or, um, scholarly, but Cameron, you raise some interesting points. On the other hand, many (most?) of the non-hard-science journals I'm looking at have somewhat different issues (for one thing, life & death are rarely involved!). On the grappling hand, some of those *really* small journals are going to disappear from DOAJ given the new rules (they publish fewer than five articles a year). - Walt Crawford
In my addled mind, a biology, biomed, medical or agriculture journal that publishes four articles a year is a pretty clear failure--where a journal devoted to the work of one author (there are several of those) might be doing just fine at that level. - Walt Crawford
JH isn't in that top 10? surprised! - Christina Pikas
Johns Hopkins' total library spending was around $37.3 million in 2012. - Walt Crawford
Is there any university anywhere else in the world that goes anywhere near $US50M - I had thought eg Oxford was around £18M so a long way short... - Cameron Neylon
@Walt "Viability is correlated with quality": discuss. Seriously not clear to me. You raise an interesting question about both what is viable (work on a single author? sounds tough) and what *should* be viable. Scale to give viability at the journal level implies a certain kind of subject matter. Creating scale at a platform level that allows more subject vertical and niche 'journals'... more... - Cameron Neylon
Cameron: As to the first, I have no idea. As to the second: I'm not sure I'm saying viability is correlated with quality, since I'm not sure I believe that. These are some tough issues that I'm probably not even the best person to be writing about; I just tossed off a couple of things here, based on the casual research I'm doing. As you say, more for (someone) to think about... - Walt Crawford
Christina Pikas
looks like @OSTIgov is working hard to get public access up and running: http://www.osti.gov/home...
thank you; would not have seen that otherwise. bookmarking! - RepoRat
That's extremely light on detail of what's actually being done though. Lots of "stuff is happening" and "these people are talking" but not quite so much "this is what is happening". - Cameron Neylon
true, but I read it as more of a NIH model than a publisher model? I guess we'll see. - Christina Pikas
I read it that way too, fwiw. - RepoRat
DOE are the most CHORUS-friendly of the agencies. My understanding is that there will still be a backup repository in case something goes wrong which goes some way to assuaging my concerns with that route. - Cameron Neylon
is DOE really or are you going with a certain DOE contractor's say so? i wonder if that contractor's view is shared or not. - Christina Pikas
Oh nope. Definitely not with contractor. Based on discussions with DoE folks but that was a while back. - Cameron Neylon
now hearing that ACM is saying DOE has definitely picked chorus. damn. - Christina Pikas
with SHARE pretty much dead, I guess I'm not surprised -- CHORUS looks superficially like the no-cost option. - RepoRat
Christina Pikas
Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics put out a memo July 9 about the public access policy, but it essentially says: you will comply by sending stuff to DTIC, enforcement details coming soon
sounds like DoD is also going with the NIH model, putting things in DTIC, instead of standing up some new system. Makes sense to me. DTIC has been cut to the bone, however, so I don't know how they will manage this greater influx of new stuff - Christina Pikas
Oooh, can haz link to memo? - Hedgehog
Ditto, interested if is public. - Cameron Neylon
It doesn't have any markings on it, but I found it through a non-public source. i'll look for it out in the wild. - Christina Pikas
you have the best fed gossip ;) - RepoRat
Cameron Neylon
Researcher as Teenager: Parsing Danah Boyd’s It’s Complicated - http://cameronneylon.net/blog...
I have a distinct tendency to see everything through the lens of what it means for research communities. I have just finally read Danah Boyd’s It’s Complicated a book that focuses on how and why U.S. teenagers interact with and through social media. The book is well worth reading for the study itself, but I would argue it is more worth reading for the way it challenges many of the assumptions we make about how social interactions online and how they are mediated by technology. The main thrust of Boyd’s argument is ... - Cameron Neylon
now, now, Cameron, didn't anybody tell you you're not supposed to point out that academics jockey for social position like high-schoolers?! ;) - RepoRat
I'm allowed now, I'm not an academic any more :-) - Cameron Neylon
hahahahahaha FTW - RepoRat
Sarah G.
I've decided that academic libraries need to make move to take over scholarly publishing. Journals, monographs, data, textbooks, all of it.
Conferences. Don't forget conferences. - Deborah Fitchett
I don't buy it in the long term. A few libraries will do it well, others will turn to them to provide services and they will turn into system-wide service providers which will be renamed 'publishers'...kind of what happened circa 1850-1950 with university presses (maybe more so in Europe than the US). None of which is to say that taking things back into community ownership is a bad... more... - Cameron Neylon
Exactly what happened with the ILS, yeah. It might work if we can figure out how to do it on a Hathi-Trust-ish level -- that is, consortially or regionally -- but US academic libraries are SO BAD at that. SO BAD. - RepoRat
Interesting that, aside a few honourable exceptions, the most interesting library as publisher things do seem to be happening in Europe. Although perhaps more at the consortial level (OAPEN, DOAB, UCL Press etc). Flip side of that is that European institutions seem to get themselves into structures that then become hard to break out of. US institutions take so long to figure out something should be done that whoever does it best earliest just wins the whole party.</vast-oversimplification> - Cameron Neylon
Seconded Sarah G's original statement. And I think US academic libraries are getting better at working collaboratively, out of necessity. - Laura Krier
Well, I don't really think "working collaboratively" is the roadblock, exactly. It's thinking systemically -- about things that benefit The World At Large (including our patrons) rather than the usual, which is Our Patrons and Screw Everybody Else. http://scientopia.org/blogs... and http://scientopia.org/blogs... - RepoRat
Yeh, that was my point. US institutions (and not just universities) don't think systemically because they don't operate that way. In Europe funding is often systemic and certainly much more coordinated (some might say managed). It's not all good by any means - in fact I think figuring out how to bridge the transatlantic gap might provide the best outcomes if we can get best of both worlds together (and not the opposite...) - Cameron Neylon
Or figuring out what works better in both circumstances, or how to leverage each for maximum benefit given their differences. I don't have a strong sense of what will work -- probably idealism damage from beating my head bloody against too many brick walls. - RepoRat
Cameron Neylon
Discussion w Knowledge Integration about the merit - https://www.diigo.com/item...
Discussion w Knowledge Integration about the merits of 'culture-specific' harvest (ie OAI PHM) vs web harvest (eg. microformat) vs data push - Cameron Neylon
Sarah G.
Harvard is fancy as fuck. They use magnets on their name tags.
*scoff* I've had magnets on my name tags the last two places I've worked. And neither of them were Harvard. ;) - ellbeecee
Yeah, same here. Whatevs, Harvard. - Steele Lawman
colleague had a go at 'em last weekend: https://twitter.com/jsench... we, of course, have http://www.union.wisc.edu/venue-m... (see first pic) 'cos WE FANCY. - RepoRat
I'll tell JZ you're not impressed, then. Harrumph. - Sarah G.
Hmmm "Picture the smell of sizzling brats fill the air as you and your friends enjoy the sweet summer breeze and dancing under the stars." has a somewhat different meaning in British english... - Cameron Neylon
yes, yes it does. *g* it's short for "bratwurst" in the Upper Midwest. (There's a pronunciation difference as well. "Brat" meaning "annoying child" has the a of "fat," whereas "brat" meaning "sausage" has the a of "father.") - RepoRat
...I mean, I know I don't like children but that seems a little excessive all things considered... - Cameron Neylon
soylent wurst! - RepoRat
We don't have name tags.you should know who we are.we are that fancy. - Pete : Team Marina from FFHound(roid)!
Wisconsin is fancy as fuck. They can picture smells. - Steele Lawman
And mix metaphors! FANCILY. - RepoRat
Soylent wurst!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! - Kirsten
Btw they made up return our name badges at the end of the day. :( - Sarah G.
well, that ain't fancy. - RepoRat
Cameron Neylon
. I want my software to be supple, with well-worn - https://www.diigo.com/item...
.@kaythaney I want my software to be supple, with well-worn corners & creases from being folded into new configurations. #BOSC2014 Tags: BOSC2014 - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
Biomedical Research as an Open Digital Enterprise - http://www.slideshare.net/pebourn...
Great talk by @pebourne on how NIH needs to change the way it works with software community. http://t.co/oDqL8UfEYv #BOSC2014 Tags: BOSC2014 - Cameron Neylon
DJF
LSW: DJF
This is bizarre. Nucleic Acids Research is an OUP journal. It's "open access", with all content available to readers on the web. Authors have the choice of a CC-BY-NC license or a CC-BY license (same fees for either). But if they select the CC-BY-NC license, then OUP is the rightsholder for commercial uses. I'm not sure how I feel about this.
you would prefer the alternative that the authors retain rights for commercial usage? I wouldn't think many people would want that. - Christina Pikas
i've seen similar wording in some others, though they don't call it a CC license - usually it's author retains copyright and can do anything NC they like, but if $ is involved publisher must be consulted. - jambina
Christina, personally, I would prefer that authors sign the CC-BY license, but it's not up to me how authors feel about that. Plan B is that authors retain control over future uses of the material, which means that they sign a CC-BY-NC license, and commercial users have to ask the AUTHOR for permission. - DJF
A friend of mine who was editing a book had to omit one of the essential articles on the subject because the publisher's fees for including the article were too expensive. I doubt that the author of the article would have attempted to ask for fees at all, if the article had been in his control. - DJF
I'd definitely prefer authors sign CC-BY, but I can imagine authors deciding they want to retain NC rights. What I can't imagine is an informed author deciding they want OUP to retain NC rights. I presume OUP is relying on authors not being that informed. - Deborah Fitchett
That strategy has worked for YEARS. - barbara fister
Decades. - RepoRat
Is the OUP situation the norm? I had discussions with people who felt CC-BY-NC should be the default, I think under the assumption the author decides on non-NC cases. - aaron
I think for both OUP, NPG and Elsevier you pass all commercial rights (either explicitly or the right to sublicense) to the publisher. Less clear in other cases that I'm aware of but I haven't looked closely. In all the big cases the intent of offering NC licensing does seem to be to give publishers right to refuse over commercial uses, not the author tho. - Cameron Neylon
Oh, this is a good one. Karger's open access option also uses the CC-BY-NC license, but, "Karger Publishers acts as a central point for commercial requests in order to help protect your work from misuse." - DJF
Dang. This is kind of a racket. - RepoRat
Cameron Neylon
Librarians Concerned Digital Content Licences Overriding Exceptions, Limitations | Intellectual Property Watch - http://www.ip-watch.org/2014...
Librarians Concerned Digital Content Licences Overriding Exceptions/Limitations http://t.co/jjbdpKPm9z via @ipwatch - Cameron Neylon
Andy
A little bird has told me that the III no longer has a Director of Library Futures. "Too much investment for too little return", I am told.
The future is PLASTICS. - Julian
Right-o, Julian - ellbeecee
I'm bemused by the idea of Library Futures. Where can I buy them? And what is the timeframe to go long on? - Cameron Neylon
Cameron, at the Chicago board of profession, just across the street from the CBOT. - DJF from Android
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ win. - RepoRat
of course now we need to rewrite Trading Places. - Pete : Team Marina
Exactly, Julian - maʀtha from Android
Who wants to lay money on who the next DoLF will be? - maʀtha from Android
I'd last money on the position being eliminated - DJF from Android
that would be my guess too. I can say from experience that getting a position created for you has a way of not working out real well -- at least, where obvious nepotism isn't involved (it's never been for me). - RepoRat
yeah, it didn't last long - maʀtha
Which law suit? - Joe
Innnnnnteresting. - Jason Griffey
Cameron Neylon
Aaaargh! Mac Outlook clearly uses spotlight to search email. I don't want to search email when looking for files, I do want to in Outlook...
You can turn off Spotlight email searching (in Lion, the menu item is "Messages and Chats") in the Spotlight system-preferences pane. I don't know if that will break Outlook, though. - RepoRat
Yep. It does...stops the search function in Outlook working. - Cameron Neylon
bleagh. - RepoRat
Cameron Neylon
Lazyweb q: If I wanted to create a linguistically and geographically representative list of ~200 journals where should I start?
Oh and the source needs to be free to use and ideally open... - Cameron Neylon
there goes ulrich's! - Christina Pikas
does topic have to be diverse, too? - Christina Pikas
Yep, thought I better add that caveat for this group :-) - Cameron Neylon
Ideally yes. What I want is a 'representative' set of journals that I can use to complement a boring set of the usual suspects. Going to use the top 800 from Scimago and add in 200 extras. - Cameron Neylon
so probably not from NLM. I'm thinking worldcat, but you'd have to do some playing around to get things that are current .... also how to know representative? like should you have 1 chinese journal or 3 out of 200 hmm - Christina Pikas
Not entirely sure to be honest. Diverse probably more important than truly representative. - Cameron Neylon
Wikipedia looks kind of promising actually... - Cameron Neylon
british library also has a ton of subscriptions.. i wonder if searching there? - Christina Pikas
oh sure, pick the easy answer :) - Christina Pikas
Not so easy...I can get a bunch of articles but now I'd have to iterate over them and hope the info boxes are consistent...dbpedia may be... - Cameron Neylon
search british library for journal in title, then use facets on the left to pick off languages and topics and even publishers - Christina Pikas
Oh cool, that works. Better than trying to write SPARQL queries... - Cameron Neylon
or you could search for any random word anywhere and limit to journals... I tried to leave the boxes blank to get all journals but it needs some term. 113 periodicals in Norwegian, for example. - Christina Pikas
Cameron Neylon
An Illustrated Book of Bad Arguments - https://bookofbadarguments.com
Awesome @NalediSaul! I also really like: https://t.co/0DP95RJUWr. Cast political "discourse" in a whole new light. cc:@alialmossawi - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
Frame Clashes, or: Why the Facebook Emotion Experiment Stirs Such Emotion | Tumbling Conduct - http://codingconduct.tumblr.com/post...
A must read - Frame Clashes, or: Why the Facebook Emotion Experiment Stirs Such Emotion http://t.co/wqq4uRCsDS @kashhill - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie - http://www.tandfonline.com/action...
RT @TandFOpen: What are authors’ views on #openaccess? Released today http://t.co/xYeNz85HBt #oasurvey2014 #oa Tags: openaccess oasurvey2014 oa - Cameron Neylon
laura x
I have lost the will to argue about the Oxford comma.
No, no, and no! Fight on! - LB sad.
OXFORD COMMA 5EVA! - RepoRat
"I've seen those English dramas too, they're cruel" http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Meg VMeg
OXFORDCOMMA4LYFE - Akiva
*picks up the sword* ONWARD WE FIGHT - maʀtha
Fight the good fight, my friends. To you the torch I throw and all. - laura x from iPhone
PLOS house style eschews the Oxford comma. I find myself crafting multi-level lists so that I'm forced to use one for clarity...or even two - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
Should Science Always be OPEN? - ZENODO - http://zenodo.org/record...
RT @melbaek Impressive result of yesterdays "Should Science Always be OPEN?" #esof2014 #ESOFopenness http://t.co/ANri1FObPB#openscience Tags: esof2014 ESOFopenness openscience - Cameron Neylon
Rachel Walden
Have any of you all written anything about changes to PLOS's institutional membership charges?
nope. hadn't heard, actually. link me up? - RepoRat
Oh, that's awfully disappointing. :-( - Deborah Fitchett
Oh..this is not good news. Sending notes to people now. - Hedgehog
well, shit. - jambina
I'm going to guess "not enough uptake from libraries to bother." Sigh. - RepoRat
How many no-fee Gold OA journals could Vanderbilt publish for $122K/year? Never mind; PLOS is a Verified Good Guy, so I shouldn't ask questions like that. - Walt Crawford
They're a Verified Good Guy who I'm pretty sure nevertheless could survive quite happily if they lowered their fees. - Deborah Fitchett
Deborah: The last chapter of my Library Tech. Reports on Big Deal Damages (out any day now) has as one possible "solution," after "Transparent Prices," "Transparent Costs." I'd love to see such transparency happen during my lifetime...but that only allows about 30 years. - Walt Crawford
Another way of saying: "quite happily" may depend on personnel pay levels and perks, but otherwise I'm inclined to believe you're right. - Walt Crawford
ooh, Transparent Costs! sounds lovely! - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
As I say in the report (not remotely in these words!), it's mostly a dream...whereas with FOI, transparent prices should be reasonably achievable. (On the other hand, some OA startups devoted to fair pricing--and maybe with university backing--*could* establish some actual costs...) - Walt Crawford
So the point is that there was never actually a discount. Libraries paid a 'membership fee' which covered the discount to institutional authors. This was just getting silly because there was a huge administrative overhead on both institution and PLOS on managing a zero sum system. So now if an institution wants either direct billing or to pay into a fund both those things are available.... more... - Cameron Neylon
..speaking as the person who took the decision to sunset the old program. More than happy to talk to anyone about this but we did it to simplify things and reduce overall costs in the system. - Cameron Neylon
I was gonna say that I'm pretty sure jh has been moving toward dropping all memberships and putting the money into a fund you have to apply for but that will pay full - Christina Pikas from iPhone
With author-fee funds dying like flies... yeah, I admit I'm concerned. But I do see the reasoning. - RepoRat
Christina, who's in charge of administering the fund and evaluating the applications? Researchers/faculty? Or librarians/administrators? Also, where does the money sit? Library budget? University/departmental budget? - Meg VMeg
Part of the issues was exactly that it didn't seem we were helping with author fee funds. The way it worked was we'd estimate volume, assess a membership fee of 10% of the expected costs, then find the volume was a bit higher than expected then have to assess a bigger fee the following year, on top of the volume increase so there was sticker shock - and the amounts were rising to levels... more... - Cameron Neylon
What has happened is that we have fewer US institutions using the new tools but a lot more UK and European ones. Certainly we're seeing a lot more UK/EU institutions establishing funds, less clear on how many US ones are dropping them. - Cameron Neylon
Yeah, that figures. I don't have hard numbers on the US either -- it may be a wash, because other funds are being established even as older ones die. - RepoRat
@Meg - it's out of the libraries budget, administered by the library, and there are some requirements - drat, they deleted the online guide since they ran out of money this year and the new year money doesn't start until July 1. Basically 1 publication per author, author has to state that they can't pay the fees out of a grant or other source, a copy has to be archived in the IR... I can't remember what else. - Christina Pikas
Whatever PLoS's reasoning is is fine for them, we're just not going to take on the costs or local administration of a fund of that type. (Note that this was not my decision to make on our end, so I will not be engaging in conversation about whether we should or not) - Rachel Walden
*nodnod* At MfPOW it was a lot easier to sell a membership than a fund. It fits into existing green-eyeshade categories and it's a lot less hassle internally. That's not to say it was a piece of cake -- I had to do the homework on how many authors and articles we were talking about -- but I'm pretty sure MfPOW still has some OA memberships, while the author-fee fund is deader than Generalissimo Francisco Franco. - RepoRat
... maybe all this is my next LJ column. I need an idea for it anyway. - RepoRat
There's definitely a wider discussion to have about where it is best to administer different kinds of system. I can buy that it's easier to subsidise by putting a smaller amount of money into a third party place. The catch is two fold - there's an administrative burden which to my mind is very inefficient on our side (the intricate variety of what different institutions want is... more... - Cameron Neylon
All that said, if there's real demand for a deposit account that gets use to provide institution marginal discounts then we could look at that again. But at the moment we've got much more demand for systems where the eligibility varies author to author based on their funding sources within an institution. - Cameron Neylon
You'd enjoy my summer lectures, Cameron. I spend a LOT of time hammering on the chooser-isn't-payer market dysfunction. :) - RepoRat
the thing with memberships, imo, was that a chunk of money would go to 10% or 20% discounts... when it was like not that for, say, $1000 they couldn't pay the apc but for $800 or $900 they could. It was like they either could or couldn't. library may want to endorse oa, but instead, they're endorsing one publisher and their offerings. and really, biomed vs all other fields of endeavor.... more... - Christina Pikas
@Meg here's how ours is handled if that's useful http://researchguides.uic.edu/ROAAP - Hedgehog
Cameron Neylon
The ethics of scholarly publishing: exploring differences in plagiarism and duplicate publication across nations - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc...
Interesting study of retractions across nations. http://t.co/5u4mh83ND3 - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
How scientific figures should work in 2014 - http://juretriglav.si/how-sci...
Fascinating paper re tweeting and cloud cover at http://t.co/IuJ0jJFxzN - one for @marca in particular - Cameron Neylon
Heather Piwowar
RT @KnowldgeLinking: Aw, shucks! MT @diylibrarian: Great group of #sla2014 closing speakers! @sglassmeyer @researchremix @Joshing @KnowldgeLinking
wait, what? Heather Piwowar and Sarah Glassmeyer IN THE SAME PLACE and I'm not going? I CALL FOUL. - RepoRat
So can we have a panel somewhere (I don't care where - I'll go to whatever meeting it is) which is Heather, Sarah, RepoRat, Jason Scott and...hmmm - Cameron Neylon
Short hop to Vancouver. - Joe
MCGILL WILL HOST THAT PANEL NO PROBLEM - jambina
Cameron, and...Barbara Fister! - John Dupuis
Meg VMeg
Holy crap, Jean-Claude Bradley died???? :(((((
so it seems. I am sad. He was on the side of the angels. - RepoRat
WHUT - jambina
oh my. that is very sad. - jambina
I'm sad too. He was a good person in all senses of the word. - John Dupuis
Wow, sudden news. I'm glad Tony was able to share this, since he knew him so well. - Elizabeth Brown
oh so sad. I saw him at ASIS&T way back when. RIP. - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
Retroactively proud to have shared a stage with him at SLA once. - RepoRat
I just pinged Drexel archives to see if they'll pick up the UsefulChem website. If not, I will yell and scream and stomp my feet until somebody else does or my digital-curation students do it next spring, whichever comes first. - RepoRat
Got a "thanks, kicking this up the chain" response from an archives tech there. - RepoRat
Had he been sick or anything? Does anyone know? I don't really see anything from him since ~2012 except for his White House visit. - Christina Pikas
Haven't a clue. This came out of the clear blue as far as I'm concerned. - RepoRat
What? Damned. There goes another good one. Now I am going to start crying... - Joe
So sad. - Sarah
What a loss. I remember, Meg, when you brought him to that kick ass conference at NYU you did a while back (and Elizabeth and Tony were there as presenters, too). - Stephen Francoeur
Yeah, I hadn't heard anything about an illness. I'm proud to have presented with him at the OpenSciNY and an ACS regional meeting a while back. Glad his work will be archived and remembered. - Elizabeth Brown
Archivist got back to me; IA has apparently been crawling the site, but recent crawls have failed and she's going to look into it. I thanked her, suggested the embedded content might be part of the issue, and offered to throw some students at it if they couldn't get a satisfactory IA crawl. - RepoRat
So sad. I met him at a Science Commons Symposium back in 2011 - the only other group I followed here on FF. Was so inspired by the idea of Open Notebook Science. He'll be missed. - Grumpator
Thanks for pursuing, RR. - Meg VMeg
NP. Somebody had to; why not me. - RepoRat
JC was an inspiration - literally - to a whole bunch of us. Was never happy with saying something could (let alone should) be done if he wasn't actually getting on and doing it. Usually with a crap-load of appropriated technology, bailing twine and duct tape - Cameron Neylon
Does lead me to wonder once again about archiving this place. You can't get back into stuff much pre-2011 systematically but it seems to be their if you can trigger google to give you a link. Quite a lot of history buried in the FF archives. - Cameron Neylon
SIGH okay lemme think about it. Could be a good, though VASTLY less than simple, digital-curation project for next year's students. - RepoRat
Sorry, didn't mean to suggest you should take it on. Just that its the second time in a month I wanted to dig back in and realised that you run into a wall if you just keep paging back. May need to talk to someone with control of the back end. - Cameron Neylon
No, it's worth thinking about, and would be a solid project if I can keep it from being overwhelming. - RepoRat
Let's get Jason Scott on this, too! - Stephen Francoeur
sure. I'll talk to him at the Harvard thinger. - RepoRat
I've been trying to figure out how to scrape just LSW for a project I'm working on...tossing in a hat of willing to help if I can - Hedgehog
Does anyone mind if I link to this from this blog post? http://cameronneylon.net/blog... - Cameron Neylon
Not at all. - RepoRat
Nope. - Meg VMeg
Be my guest. - Stephen Francoeur
Thanks, now linked. - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
Remembering Jean-Claude Bradley - http://cameronneylon.net/blog...
It takes me a while to process things. It often then takes me longer to feel able to write about them. Two weeks ago we lost one of the true giants of Open Science. Others have written about Jean-Claude’s work and his contributions – and I don’t feel able to add much to those reflections at the moment. I will also be participating in a conference panel in August at which Jean-Claude was going to speak and which will now be dedicated to his memory – I may have something ... - Cameron Neylon
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