Cameron Neylon › Comments

Sarah G.
Happy news for a Friday - I'm taking a leave of absence from my job and spending next year as a Fellow in the Library Innovation Lab and Affliliate of the Berkman Center at Harvard. Gonna be working on free law and open information stuff. I'm pretty excited (and terrified.)
So if you see someone that looks like me walking around cambridge, it's me. - Sarah G.
Wow! Congratulations!!! - Hedgehog
How cool! - Kirsten
OH AWESOME!!!!!!! - RepoRat
Cool! - Cameron Neylon
Congratulations! - Jennifer Dittrich
Congratulations! - bentley
Do you get to wear a Beefeater costume around campus? - sglassme
Well if I don't the deal is off!!! - Sarah G. from iPhone
THIS IS FANFUCKINGTASTIC. - jambina from iPhone
Sarah, this is awesome! Great opportunity, and great project! - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
Well done. Well done indeed :-) - Pete's Got To Go from FFHound(roid)!
congratulations! This sounds excellent! - ellbeecee
What fantastic news; congratulations! - Galadriel C. from Android
What? Nobody's said #fuckyeahbuttercup yet? - Catherine Pellegrino
Wow! Neat!!! - lris from Android
That is awesome news! - Sarah from iPhone
!!!!!!!!!!!!! - John Dupuis
Shut. Up.That is fantastic. - Laura Norvig
Amazing! - joey
Wow! Congrats! - Anne Bouey
You are amazing. Congratulations. - MoTO Boychick Devil
Duuuuuuude! - Marie
Thanks all! I'm still kind of in shock even though I've kniwn for about a month now. I applied for the Berkman fellowship back in December, heard nothing until I got the call saying "you're in" I feel very fortunate. Plus, as I said to sglassme, I bet they got them some real fancy ass cheese at Harvard! - Sarah G.
Man, you did keep a secret for a long time. I thought it was only a couple of days. Who would have thunk it? - sglassme
What a great opportunity! Congratulations! - Jenny H. from Android
I am seriously bummed that FF won't be around so that we can hear all about it. dammit. - jambina from iPhone
Yeah, I was hoping to bounce ideas off of people here. Maybe the Italian one will take off... - Sarah G. from iPhone
I've been feeling rather nostalgic lately for the time when I was much more active in groups here... - Sarah G. from iPhone
Harvard- Home of Fancy Ass Cheese - Pete's Got To Go
As sglassme said, the fanciest and the assiest! - Sarah G. from iPhone
walt crawford
Idle question to folks at ScholCommCamp: Did my name ever arise in connection with OA, "predatory," or library publishing? Just special reason it should (unless people complaining about lack of hard facts on OA volume and "predatory," for example)
Suber and Sheiber came up, but alas, not Crawford. Maybe I will post some things from you with the hashtag. Yes, the be all and predatory publishing came up, but not as a session [thank god]. Library publishing came up quite a bit, and it had its own session. The library publishing coalition person talked a lot about that organization. - Joe
Thanks. Suber's in a league by himself in any case. - walt crawford
Suber *is* the league :-) That said, I'm hearing lots of positive comments on our side of the pond about your data release. When is the article itself out? Or have I managed to miss it (entirely possible, been a month) - Cameron Neylon
Cameron: Good to hear that. Tell people about my blog series, which extends (some of the) data to all of 2014. As for the article--the Library Technology Reports issue will be out sometime this summer, not sure when. I'll DEFINITELY post about it! - walt crawford
Cameron Neylon
Very sad that in archiving old #friendfeed accounts that I won't be able to get Maxine Clarke's because it is private.
Still, I think there are a lot of her comments on other threads. - Cameron Neylon
Can't help thinking that this is one way women get written out of history. It's less safe for us to exist in public, so. - RepoRat
Yep. Although in the list I've been working through there were more men with private feeds than women. But equally there were a lot more men than women... - Cameron Neylon
registration for the Zar Symposium is open - come talk scholarly publishing with me (and a certain FFer)
Wow...must sign up today for that. - Hedgehog
Hoorah! What am I talking about again...? Oh yes. I remember #toomuchgoingon - Cameron Neylon
Hmmmm. I wonder if I can get the kid home for a surprise trip home. And, maybe he can see grandma on her birthday. - Joe
LSW: Joe
What did I learn from the LSW group and from the Wider FF community?
I learned that there are others who feel the same way I do about life, things and stuff. And I love you all for it. Heck, I even love [most] of the FF people who don't feel the same way. - Joe
God. So much. - laura x
most of what I know - lris
That not everybody hates me? - RepoRat
So so much. - Christina Pikas from iPhone
that my colleagues are funny, smart, in touch, and willing to lend a hand instantly - and that the world is not so grim a place after all. - barbara fister
All of the above. LSW restored my faith in librarianship. :-) - Megan loves summer
...pretty much everything I know about libraries...and technology...and what happens when social hits technological... - Cameron Neylon
So much, and so much that's kept me going. (OK if I mine this thread for my C&I reminiscence?) - walt crawford
That there are people who think like me, and people who don't, and there's a place for us all. That organisation need not mean organised. That people will, and do, lend a hand. - Pete's Got To Go
Walt: mine it as much as you want. - Joe
I've learned so much from the LSW! I feel pretty new around here, but have found the attitudes and passion here really inspiring. It's honestly helped me stand up more for the stuff I believe it at my own place of work. Plus the LSW has given me models for passionate-but-collegial disagreements. And models for robust theorizing about the library, or robust research into library stuff. - Regular Amanda
what it means to have a professional network I can immediately rely on at all hours. - Hedgehog
That ragequit doesn't mean forever. - Rochelle *boom* Hartman from iPhone
I agree with pretty much everything Cameron says here: - John Dupuis
i joined FF almost the day i started my first librarian gig. to me being part of libraryland means seeing all of you on FF daily. - jambina
How awesome non-medical librarians are, and some of the amazing things they're accomplishing every day. - Rachel Walden
To me, and this is mine-able, the great thing about FF was that it was the first place that I saw that really facilitated people interacting that might not have met before. In my case, it was scientists and librarians. We librarians had a chance to see what scientists were really thinking about and really doing at the edges of the open science world and to reflect back and give... more... - John Dupuis
So much - including through all these discussions about migrating content and community to a new site. I love how thoughtful you all are! - Grumpator
What a lot of you have said, but just that you all are my people. I love having a wide network of smart people who will give me advice, agree or disagree with me in meaningful ways, and give me a broader perspective on things. Also, I just like you all. - kaijsa
FF and the LSW is my go to professional network. - ♫Maurice the Dolphin♫
^^^ This. Twitter is useful for knowing what' going on and for links to interesting stuff, but the depth of the conversation here and the capacity to get good help or discussion about an issue - and sense of close community - there's nothing like it. - barbara fister
The ability to say something in more than 140 characters helps me gather my thoughts. Even though other services have threaded discussions like this, the LSW has the right diversity and mix of people for me. The ALATT had a chance to be like the LSW at one point, but that place feels more like a frat house, and people are trying to get the most attention. I know I am generalizing, and there are good libns in ALATT, but the loud ones get the most notice. - Joe
I learned that goodbye does not mean never again hello. Also, I learned that a career is more than just the daily job, as it can have so many facets and directions. - Julian
Who are the cool librarians who know the real deal.. who "get it"... - LibrarianOnTheLoose
^^^ This! Being part of LSW has changed my life. I've found support for incubating ideas, been challenged to grow and expand in a professional humorous way by fun super smart colleagues, and especially during the move and transition to my current place of work, LSW kept me from feeling isolated and alone in my work. - Galadriel C.
How awesome it is to have a tribe that has my back. That not all libraries are dysfunctional. That there are amazing people doing interesting work. That it's ok to have professional heroes/crushes/whatever-you-wanna-call it and sometimes you get to meet them and they have foibles and interior lives and that's cool. - Jaclyn aka spamgirl
Like others have said, LSW has restored my faith in the future of librarianship. It's meant more than I can express to have a place to converse with such thoughtful, open people. - Jen
Besides learning the more practical aspects of things, a lot of my thinking on librarianship has been shaped by discussions here eg. IL, open access just to name two. - aaron from Flucso
Just to let folks know: I've put together a first draft of the C&I essay on FF and LSW (too long, but that's C&I: for concise excellence, go to Barbara Fister) and included *almost* all of this thread, names included. The exception: I omitted part of one of Joe's comments because, even though I agree fully with his thoughts on ALATT, I'd just as soon not go there by name this time around. Maybe I've been burned too badly by them. - walt crawford
So: If there's anybody who *doesn't* want your comment used (including your screen name), LET ME KNOW within the next two weeks. The thread reads really well as a closing section of the article. - walt crawford
I'm happy to have my comment and name included, but if you could please use the now slightly edited version I'd appreciate it. - Galadriel C. from Android
Galadriel: Done. - walt crawford
I should really try to say something more intelligent. - laura x from iPhone
LSW reminded that becoming a librarian was the right choice for me and that the job I had when I find this place was not the right choice for me. - John: Thread Killer
Thank you! - Galadriel C. from Android
Okay, here we go: Before I became a librarian or ever thought of it, I was an activist. I organized and demonstrated and got arrested and generally worked my tail off to try to change the world and make people's lives better--sometimes those of my colleagues; sometimes those of people I'd never met. When I started working in libraries, I felt I lost a lot of that. I still believed in... more... - laura x from iPhone
Hey, so, time got away from me this week and I didn't keep my promise to Jing up the FF archiving script. If you'd like me to run the script on your behalf, I'd be happy to. What I'll need from you (DM it or email it to dorothea @ is your "FriendFeed remote key" which you can find at .
You have my word I will ONLY use the remote key to fuel the archive script. You can (and should) tell FF to reset the key as soon as I've sent you the archive. - RepoRat
RR, you are the best. - laura x
Yes, she is the best. :-) ( RR, are you including just the feed or also the discussions? (I'm not complaining, I'm just asking so I know whether I need to scroll back through discussions later on.) Thanks! DM on the way. - bentley
I will try to get discussions, but the tool docco says it may not work. We'll see what happens. - RepoRat
I'm having trouble using that tool on discussions. I'm prioritising folks from the Life Scientists room that aren't around much any more so I'm guessing we should be moderately orthogonal here... - Cameron Neylon
Thank you so much RR; DM forthcoming. - Galadriel C.
Wow.So much skills. Such friendhip. - barbara fister
This actually didn't take giant skillz, just a non-Windows environment. :) bentley, the discussion thing is not happening, sorry -- script downloads endlessly until the FF API locks it out. - RepoRat
I would love your help with this, RR. Thank you - I'll send an email. - ellbeecee
Me too... - Hedgehog
Yes, me too, please - maʀtha from Android
what is download DM? do I check that? - ♕Dr. Eynollah ♕
RR: I understand. Thank you for trying, and thank you very much for the main download. That is a huge help. - bentley
Cameron Neylon
Struck by how badly wrong my memory of chronology is. Things that I would have thought were separated by years happened at the same time and vice versa...#backthroughthelikes
So for instance, Google Reader died a lot more recently than I thought. It was contemporaneous with @KayThaney and @mza running #sameAs in London for instance (which was a bit longer ago than I thought) - Cameron Neylon
Pawel Szczesny
It's already hanging in our department...
... so OAgeek made a statement out of my question? how dare she ;-) - Claudia Koltzenburg
Claudia, it's just another Claudia, right? I will change that to @Repositories :) - Pawel Szczesny
I think citing @OAgeek here makes more sense than @Repositories, but they usually cooperate closely ;-) non-claimer: both write from my IP ;-) - Claudia Koltzenburg
Not much changed here... - Cameron Neylon
John Dupuis
RT @GaviaLib: The Loon endorses this analysis by @CameronNeylon in its entirety:
High praise indeed. The Loon is, as we all know, a very picky bird. :-) - Bill Hooker
+1 Bill. It was the "in its entirety" that gives me a warm inner glow :-) - Cameron Neylon
I hear that you saved the Loon having to write such a post herself, Cameron. *g* - RepoRat
Wow. I got this a bit wrong didn't I? "The notion that Elsevier could flip to an author pays model by charging $US3000 an article is absurd." - Cameron Neylon
Stephen Francoeur
Post your FF stats here: 333 subscriptions, 402 subscribers,17,435 comments, 4,952 likes
872 subscriptions, 841 subscribers, 61,176 comments, 56,914 likes. - OCoG of FF, Jimminy
952 subscriptions, 1,058 subscribers,107,959 comments, 257,661 likes. I don't get out much. - LB needs a break.
32 subscriptions, 57 subscribers, 13,437 comments, 4,281 likes. - Zamms
218 subscriptions, 132 subscribers, 13,051 comments, 20,460 likes, - bentley
183 subscriptions, 240 subscribers, 6,741 comments, 535 likes - aaron
155 subscriptions, 172 subscribers, 4, 573 comments, 7681 likes (never could get my flickr or twitter accounts to work properly in here) - weelibrarian
525 subscriptions, 413 subscribers, 20,850 comments, 23,658 likes. - Joe
118 subscriptions, 83 subscribers, 27,225 comments, 10,511 likes. Dang I run my mouth too much. - RepoRat
544 subscriptions, 378 subscribers, 44,767 comments, 26,022 likes - ωαřмaiden ❤Bassetmom❤
225 subscriptions 396 subscribers 39,007 comments 2,461 likes [ETA: I am not a big liker, it would seem!] - laura x
198 subscriptions, 158 subscribers, 19550 comments, 7684 likes. - Hedgehog
130 subscriptions, 159 subscribers, 28,916 comments, 13,150 likes - Rochelle *boom* Hartman
582 subscriptions 921 subscribers 60,002 comments 20,931 likes - Mary Carmen
170 subscriptions 272 subscribers 22,800 comments 7,797 likes (doesn't include my first account, which I impulsively deleted after a year or two) - Meg VMeg
108 subscriptions 120 subscribers 35,725 comments 9,711 likes - jambina
150 subscriptions, 204 subscribers, 1493 comments, 2123 likes - Heather Piwowar
392 subscriptions, 379 subscribers, 5,445 comments, 10,008 likes - John Dupuis
150 subscriptions, 621 subscribers, 11,250 comments and 6,190 likes. the day as it happens - Cameron Neylon
235 subscriptions 148 subscribers 4,324 comments 2,964 likes - Jed
182 subscriptions 156 subscribers 38,761 comments 31,911 likes - Pete's Got To Go
125 subscriptions, 272 subscribers, 7,901 comments, 4,947 likes - Christina Pikas from iPhone
257 subscriptions, 194 subscribers, 39,158 comments, 17,727 likes - ellbeecee
157 subscriptions, 183 subscribers, 5349 comments, 1626 likes (even more bah humbug than Laura !) - Kathryn is a free elf
110 subscriptions (guess I'm antisocial), 250 subscribers, 16,850 comments, 1,547 likes. - walt crawford
277 subscriptions, 204 subscribers, 16,167 comments, 8,938 likes - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
34 subscriptions, 51 subscribers, 2,160 comments, 738 likes. (I just use FF for LSW, obv.) - kaijsa
569 subscriptions, 1,148 subscribers, 50,436 comments, 7,830 likes (I did a major cleanup awhile back, to usubscribe from a lot of "dead" people) - April Russo (FForever!)
113 subscriptions, 113 subscribers, 5,884 comments, 2,293 likes - βℜ∀ñÐi
114 subscriptions 159 subscribers 19,908 comments 17,274 likes and Friendfeed NOW FRIENDFEED FOREVER! . - ♫Maurice the Dolphin♫
260 subscriptions 268 subscribers 26,783 comments 14,508 likes - Mr. The Jason Fleming from Android
Rochelle *boom* Hartman
Last night, I dreamed that there was a Walt action figure.
This now needs to become a reality. - Julian
This would work for creating a Walt Action figure, but does not include an option for creating a female action figure: - Galadriel C.
*bumping for Walt* - Rochelle *boom* Hartman
Which Walt did you have in mind? Certainly not this one... - walt crawford
Yes, sir. It was you. - Rochelle *boom* Hartman
Anyone else looking up to customize a minifig? - bentley
This sounds like a perfect maker space project. 3D printer, anyone? - Andy
I'd chip in. - Meg VMeg
And this is why I love you all :) - Jen
Can it be like the Fonz with thumps up action? - Joe
I would buy one. And I almost never buy anything. - laura x from iPhone
Can we make a tiny Cites and Insights to go with the figurine? - Marie
Sigh. I apparently lost my (custom, 30th anniversary, pair) wedding ring today, so I'm currently not feeling very action-y. Depressed and upset and... but right now, I'm just not up for anything. - walt crawford
Crap, any idea where you lost it? - Meg VMeg
That's too bad, Walt. I once lost mine for 10 months (it was in the bottom of a deep kitchen drawer filled with tupperware). I also lost it for 15 minutes on the day after I got married as we were flying to our honeymoon (I found it under the cushion of my seat). - Stephen Francoeur
No idea. Retraced our walk, called the two places I'd been, looked *everywhere* in the house--and, because Tuesday's garbage/recycling day, we spent a couple of hours going through the garbage, green waste (I'm degrassing the front yard) and recycling: Finally had dinner at 8 p.m. instead of the usual 6 p.m. - walt crawford
Later this morning I'll go through the not-yet-recycled buckets of grass, etc. one more time, probably shovel & sift through a few cubic feet of soil, revisit two places, and call the police dept. to see if they have a lost & found. And try to get things back to normal. Very little likelihood of finding it. Still not up for action figure, I'm afraid... - walt crawford
My wife had been suggesting that I have a ball mounted on inside of ring (she has this) to help prevent it slipping off the finger; I found the ball really uncomfortable, so resisted. As usual, she was/is right. UPDATE: Wedding ring found. - walt crawford
Hooray! Now can we have the action figure? - Cameron Neylon
Walt, I have two balls on one of the rings I wear (it belonged to my great-grandmother and then my grandmother)--I've gotten used to them much more quickly than I thought I would. - laura x
Laura: Thanks for that. I'm definitely going to get it done (and it is two balls, not one). - walt crawford
yay wedding ring found!! - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
Yay! - bentley
Yay! I've actually "lost" my wedding ring twice over the years and ended up finding it. The first time was on a business trip to the UK only about a year or two after we got married. I noticed it was gone while on the plane and spent the whole time sweating it out. Fortunately, it was sitting on the top of my clothes in my suitcase when I got home. It probably fell off while I was packing after my shower. - John Dupuis
Also, I vote for a Walt action figure, even if only a virtual one. - John Dupuis
I saw one of these machines at the Toys R Us in Times Square over the weekend: - Stephen Francoeur
Cameron Neylon
Following on from (but unrelated to) my post last week about feed tools we have two posts, one from Deepak Singh, and one from Neil Saunders, both talking about ‘friend feeds’ or ‘lifestreams’. The idea here is of aggregating all the content you are generating (or is being generated about you?) into one place. There are a couple of these about but the main ones seem to be Friendfeed and Profiliac. See Deepaks’s post (or indeed his Friendfeed) for details of the conversations that can come out of these type ... - Cameron Neylon
Mr. Gunn
FF replacement option: run the friendfeed code on shared hosting. Pros/cons?
Con: someone has to install and host it - Mr. Gunn
Pro: _likely_ that you could import with minimal loss. - Mr. Gunn
It's not the actual code for running the service tho as I understand it? - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
You know that feeling when you gain a new perspective on all the problems that you though insoluble for several years...?
Sure. :) What's up? - RepoRat
Of course, it may well just be that I have a new hammer and all of those issues look like nails :-) - Cameron Neylon
General theory of cultural change in scholarly communications...(and failures thereof) - Cameron Neylon
Formulate the basic problem as one of convincing knowledge clubs (which have non-rivalrous but excludable goods) to share those goods by giving them access to network effects that create new club goods. - Cameron Neylon
Crossref succeeds because the club (publishers) gives away a resource (infrastructure plus identifiers) that gives them a club good (traffic and attention) - Cameron Neylon
IRs live or die on the basis of their ability to convince academics that by depositing manuscripts (club goods -> public goods) that they will exploit the network of the web to get more attention (club goods). Where discovery works and the network is created effectively (eg QUT, Liege, Southampton) this works. This provides design principle for the underlying infrastructure (ie repository software and support systems) that seem to map to success stories. Discovery is critical, frictionless deposit etc etc - Cameron Neylon
Knowledge Unlatched works because it takes the club goods of the library monograph budget, and access to the books themselves, and turns them into a public good, but delivers club goods (saved money in the longer term) back to the club. struggles (as do many crowdfunding campaigns in general)because there is no club to start with so where does the benefit get returned to ? - Cameron Neylon
Consequence: we need to build infrastructures and templates that enable frictionless conversion of club goods to public goods and allow easy integration into *existing* networks/communities that all the club to exploit network effects and gain club returns (or at least given them confidence that such returns are likely). - Cameron Neylon
And this arises out of the view that knowledge is *not* created as a public good but as a club good (non-rivalrous but excludable). Knowledge/insight is situated within communities and needs to be transferred out of them into public spaces. - Cameron Neylon
...which is not new, but took me a long time to wrap my head around. - Cameron Neylon
"... and the network is created effectively" seems really handwavey to me, though that may be because I spent six years trying to create that network and failed quite miserably. How does one effectively create such a network? Are there prerequisites without which it won't happen? Etc. - RepoRat
Yep. It is. My interim answer is that the community probably already needs to exist in some form if you want the easy route. The longer term answer is that we need to build the network as infrastructure. So the reason we can even talk about this is that the web exists as an infrastructure that eases connections and makes network effects accessible on a much larger scale at lower cost. So at some level we need to create those networks... - Cameron Neylon
...the new piece is that we should probably be doing that (at least in our space) by connecting up clubs, rather than trying to "crowdsource" individuals. "build it and they will come" drops out as a design anti-pattern immediately if the club/group/community is central - Cameron Neylon
But yes, things that can stop network effects being accessible include friction (legal, financial, political), poor discovery, lack of nothing new there but it seems to link failures in a number of different bits of our space - Cameron Neylon
I *think* that the logical conclusion of a good model that builds on this would be a) templates that make it easier to adopt good practice in building services/infrastructures/clubs that work in this system and b) good ground rules for telling if something is probably not going to work. That seems useful. - Cameron Neylon
I can go along with this. The piece I would add -- not least because I lectured about it in class today :) -- is FFS START SMALL and grow from there. A thing I didn't realize when I was writing Roach Motel or even How2Scuttle is that if you set your scope to "all of campus, all at once" you're screwed because you can't focus your effort enough to actually help anybody, not to mention... more... - RepoRat
Yep! And that's consistent with the economics of successful "clubs". They need to be at a scale where you can build trust internally before they can be persuaded to unilaterally trust externally. Homogeneity is as much an issue as size because of this. Is it generally true that the most successful IR programs started in departments? Southampton ECS, Harvard FAS (but basically CS), QUT?.... more... - Cameron Neylon
That's an interesting research question. Among the lit review should be the Carrots and Sticks article from D-Lib that I love so much; the angle that fits here is that the IR managers quite consciously and intentionally used bribery to get club rivalries/competitions going. - RepoRat
You'd have to explain Mana'o and DList's failures away though. I think that's possible, but it would still need doing. Can't speak for Mana'o, but my impression of DList has always been that they vastly overestimated LIS faculty's give-a-shitness. (Or, to put it in club terms, the internal cohesiveness of the club. ASIST always seems to me like a bunch of people getting together who for the most part don't actually like each other very much.) - RepoRat
CUNY's internal social-network thinger would be an interesting case to look at; so would MLA Commons. Both seem designed for club-building. - RepoRat
Yep, that's useful. Things that would need to fit the model, failures and successes will be crucial to seeing if this makes sense. - Cameron Neylon
Just for my own curiosity's sake, I'd love to hear how California eScholarship turned itself around. I mean, there's an official story, and I mostly believe it as far as it goes. But I'm *dead sure* there's more to it. - RepoRat
this is the best thing on the Internet today. thank you. - jambina
Any chance that my wishful thinking of the schol comm future has any chance? - Joe
Academics gotta think that it is a big club just for them. - Joe
Ok, so I think I need a more robust and less hand-wavey version of the model before trying to shoe-horn stories into it. Also need a grounding in proper case study methodology at some point. But this does seem to be making some sense still (been churning on it for a few days now...) - Cameron Neylon
if i can help and test any theories out, let me know. i have the fortune (most days) of building a repository from scratch, so working with clubs is totally my angle right now. - jambina
I definitely think you're on to something worth testing as empirically as possible. - RepoRat
@jambina Will bear that in mind. I need to think about how best to take this forward. Will take some time to get the ducks lined up. - Cameron Neylon
all good. we are still moving slowly on this (oh funding requests, how i love writhing thee) so timing might work out. - jambina
Freeda B.
We're having a discussion about whether to use NIH "author manuscript" versions of article to fulfill ILL requests at MPOW. As a staunch open access advocate, I'm all for it, but I'm getting some push back. The author manuscript versions, as far as I can tell, have gone through peer-review, but not the final copy edit.
Anyone know a little more about the NIH open access articles and their relation to the final published versions? - Freeda B.
doesn't it depend on the publisher and what they send/allow? - Christina Pikas
If they are NIH, shouldn't they be in PubMedCentral already and not need ILL? - Hedgehog
Exactly, they are in PubMedCentral, but the pdf has a disclaimer about being an "author manuscript". For example: - Freeda B.
Just convert to document delivery and send the requestor the PubMed Link? - Aaron the Librarian
Yeah, I guess I"m thinking along the lines of Aaron-- it's already open, why is anyone requesting an ILL? It's the same manuscript, just doesn't have the PDF formatting the journal put in place... changes would be commas/typos. - Hedgehog
Yes, you are all responding in exactly the same way I did to the question. But some people here are concerned about sending students or faculty something which has not gone through the final editing process. I guess I'm trying to find a way to convince them or at least assuage their concerns. - Freeda B.
Pagination may be different, so harder to cite to a specific page of the article? - Joe
The figures may also be on completely different pages, so if so one wants to cite a figure, hard to know which page it appeared in the final version. - Joe
The NIH expects it to be the same material, that's good enough for me. I could see wanting it for Joe's question but that seems rare. - Hedgehog
Perhaps I am a bad person (I likely am for this) but I would just cite the PubMed Author MSs content as a webpage published in a collection (the PubMed colletcion) for an academic assignment. {I get that in a formally published venue the version of record would be fairly mandatory} - Aaron the Librarian
*grumbles about the confusion created by this, a wish that the PMC was the final version, and @#$%@# publishers* - Rachel Walden
The final version *could* be different. People requesting ILL may either 1) not know a copy is available in PMC, or 2) want to be sure they're seeing a final version. I do worry about whether anything (supplementary items, figures, etc.) could be problematic/missing in author versions, whether any corrections that happened in editing may be missing and important, etc.But I also think folks are probably overestimating how thorough/transformative that final edit might be. - Rachel Walden
I'm tagging this thread for a likely future C&I discussion of OA Colors (the problems with green being part of it, as in this case). Thanks. Nothing to offer, though. - walt crawford
This is all very helpful. It is also making me explore why PubMed isn't connected to our 360 Link tool, so that users could discover PubMed articles on their own. My guess is that most people would happily use the PubMed version if they found it first, so I'm going to see if we can make that happen. - Freeda B.
Nothing much to offer but that because its a strong cultural preference for print version of record, applying just logic to the answer is unlikely to help because it requires surfacing reasons for that preference (which people don't much like to think about). To be successful you need to add a values argument on top of the "its close enough" argument. Also copy editing? Does anyone do that any more? Proofing yes, copy editing is pretty unusual. - Cameron Neylon
I got into a rather umm interesting exchange on my last paper with the journal copy editor. - Hedgehog
fwiw- our standard thing is something like - we found it available online here:... but if you still need the version of record from the publisher we can get that for you. I don't do ILL for a living, but I'm pretty sure no one ever asks us to buy/ILL anyway - Christina Pikas
Connecting PubMed to 360 is a true pain in the ass, but worth it. And it would solve your problem. - maʀtha
Cameron Neylon
Re: Principles for Open Scholarly Infrastructures -
"Hi Leigh. Yes the Open Definition should be a touch point. I think we felt that wasn't widely enough known so that making the data definitely available in some bulk download form was good to signal. And you're right on open formats as well. I guess in terms of privacy we were trying to signal that the default is open but there are edge cases that need to be acknowledged. Certainly we weren't saying it should be used as an excuse. Maybe that needs to be more explicit." - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
Re: First analysis of software metrics -
"Your comment about not following metrics on the forks is interesting because it surfaces an issue that is clearer within software repos but definitely generalises to data (and possibly written works. To what extent is it useful/necessary to natively aggregate up metrics for the forked repos (as opposed to expecting a downstream analyst to decide whether/if they want to do that)? This also comes up with annotations (issues in this context I guess) where you want to somehow signal a transitive property so that the annotation of a gene in a document actually flows through to the gene in the database or the issue on the forked repo flows through to an upstream version..." - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
Re: Principles for Open Scholarly Infrastructures -
"That's a really good question. Clearly the governance doesn't fit in terms of stakeholder involvement and financial transparency is minimal. I wonder whether you've hit on an issue which is that our model only works for relatively small infrastructures or at least homogeneous(ish) communities. As things get bigger the issues of effective and representative stakeholder engagement become substantial." - Cameron Neylon
I understand this Dorothea Salo knows stuff about things.
I've heard the same. Too bad she's hard to get ahold of. - lris
She's kinda Looney, but I really like her ideas and she's a lot of fun - Aaron the Librarian
Look for the purple streak. - ♫Maurice the Dolphin♫
It's all lies. - RepoRat
RepoRat, I think that's libelous and slanderous. Just wait till Dorothea sees that! - lris
LIES I TELL YOU. (Besides, Dorothea's one of those commie open-access, information-justice freaks, she won't sue.) - RepoRat
*I've* heard she doesn't just know stuff about things...but things about stuff... - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
Principles for Open Scholarly Infrastructures -
Everything we have gained by opening content and data will be under threat if we allow the enclosure of scholarly infrastructures. We propose a set of principles by which Open Infrastructures to support the research community could be run and sustained. - Geoffrey Bilder, Jennifer Lin, Cameron Neylon - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
The problem of expertise: The Brighton/English Touring Theatre production of Stoppard’s Arcadia -
The play Arcadia by Tom Stoppard‘s links entropy and chaos theory, the history of english landscape gardens, romantic literature and idiocies of academia. I’ve always thought of it as Stoppard’s most successful “clever” play, the one that best combines the disparate material he is bringing together into a coherent whole. Rosencrantz and Guildernstern are Dead feels more straightforward, more accessible, although I don’t doubt that many will feel that’s because I’m missing its depths. In the Theatre Royal Brighton/English Touring Theatre production that just closed at the Theatre Royal in Bath the part of Thomasina was played by ... - Cameron Neylon
Cameron Neylon
This week I apparently will mostly be cranky...
...and mostly responding to queries with "FFS, just go and read this thing years ago and get back to me afterwards..." - Cameron Neylon
We had our Steacie Library Hackfest this week. Just finished and it was a huge success. I am uncrankyable this week. #yulhackfest is the hashtag. - John Dupuis from iPhone
That's a plus. I need some of that I think. Ideally energetic enthusiastic people who've actually done some homework... - Cameron Neylon
Other than being buried in gruntwork, I'm actually having a great week! Classes going well (I GOT THROUGH RDF/XML WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE including myself), met an applicant today that I really hope chooses us, got Encode Club off the ground... life's good! - RepoRat
LSW: Joe
Justin wonderin'. How did people hear about the LSW?
Josh's blog, I think. - Pete's Got To Go
Twitter - ellbeecee
It was whispered to me in an elevator at CIL in DC 2008. By Josh Neff. Also the picture from CIL2008 in Meredeth's article makes me miss a whole bunch of folks who I don't see enough anymore. Let me get this stuff out of my eye. - ♫Maurice the Dolphin♫
Iris and Martha, back when LSW was still in a meebo room - Sir Shuping is just sir
From Ruth at SLA - Christina Pikas from iPhone
I'm not sure. Probably Josh's blog, too. - bentley
I was in the Meebo room on the day it was born. Cigars were handed 'round; there was a brandy toast. It was a beautiful baby. *dabs at eyes* - Rochelle *boom* Hartman
I think I couldn't get on Meebo because I had the ancient computer then or something. :-( - bentley
I think from Rochelle's blog post about it, which also led me to getting onto Twitter in the first place. Almost 8 years there now. - Katie
blake had a tweet in his feed that led to a link to here, and to see what the link actually said, i had to sign up... - LibrarianOnTheLoose
From some pamphlets my doctor gave me when I asked about spells of dizziness. - Stephen Francoeur from Android
Meebo... oh look, Rochelle Said It Better Than I Could. Summer of 2007, iirc - Aaron the Librarian
I don't believe you Stephen... - Joe
As you shouldn't, because actually I heard about it in a vision. I was in the Zs, dusting some of my favorite library science titles, when a flash of light blinded me and knocked me to the floor. A booming voice told me, "Go ye online to find ye brethren, like minded folk who, enticed by calls for slatterns and powders of mystery, make sport of all that is sacred." - Stephen Francoeur
I do remember the Meebo room from the summer if 2007...mainly because I'd pop in the evening from whichever hotel as I drove cross country from Youngstown to Tucson for the new job. Terre Haute, Joplin, Amarillo, Albuquerque, Tucson. It was gone by the time I moved back east in 2010. That was Van Horn, Tyler, Birmingham, Atlanta. (the things that stick in my head...) - ellbeecee
From laurax, I think. It's so hard to remember. - kaijsa
Actually, Stephen's recounting might mirror what happened for some of us - especially the description provided by the Great Cataloguer. - Aaron the Librarian from Android
I don't remember specifically, but I do know that at a conference sometime before CiL 2009, there was a small crowd of people having entirely Too Much Fun, and I kinda-sorta recognized some of them from their blogs, and thought "that right there? That's the LSW." And then at CiL 2009 I was sitting on the floor in the hotel lobby with 'em. :) - Catherine Pellegrino
Roundabout way. I was invited to a crime & mystery fiction FF group by Maxine Clarke (super-crimeficfan and Nature editor who sadly is gone now but did a lot of Nature's media stuff and was a good online friend). Then I browsed around and thought "wait, I think Iris mentioned this Library Society of the World thing..." AND THEN A VOICE SAID .... like Stephen, only not in the Zs. - barbara fister
I'm guessing one of the founders mentioned it to me *or* I picked up on it from an early blog post. I don't believe I was one of the really early folks, but probably among the first 200. - walt crawford
I remember your posts from your drive too, LBC! - laura x from iPhone
Meebo room. I'm going to with probably Rochelle dragged me in :) - Hedgehog
Meebo room, mentioned by Steve? - Megan loves summer
I came across LSW through Friendfeed. Wish I could remember exactly what/when/where the connection was made but...see para 8/9 in http://book-shaped-object.came... - Cameron Neylon
It's all Rochelle's fault circa 2008/2009. - Galadriel C.
^^ that. All my friends are here, even if I'm mostly silent. - Louise "Weezy" Alcorn
*takes a bow* - Rochelle *boom* Hartman
I was there at the beginning...? - Julian
I think it was probably Mark Lindner. Meebo was definitely involved. I was looking for a way to stay connected to libraries while I lived abroad. - Jaclyn aka spamgirl from Android
Iris was my college librarian and showed me the light when I began applying to library schools. - Lily
Meebo room, but I forget how I found that. It was 2007, probably, and I was lonely at work. Sort of what stephen said, only in the basement with the shelf list catalog. We called it "the B level." - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
I found this on the earlier version of my blog: It seems that it was the science gang that got me on FF not the librarians. No idea how I ended up in LSW at this point, probably just by accident or following the trail from someone I already knew. - John Dupuis
I found it when the group was raising funds for Walt to attend ALA...and I'm not sure where I saw that, probably on LIS News? - John: Thread Killer
I think maybe Josh's blog? - maʀtha
walt crawford
Thinking this request may not have reached LSW people (or you're all trying to get out of Chicago).
Closing the loop: Rudy verified that the doi's working properly. Thanks. - walt crawford
Also aware I haven't sent you my comments on the manuscript. I need to pull the comments out of one device onto another and I hadn't got that far yet. Will try to do it tonight. - Cameron Neylon
Cameron: Thanks. - walt crawford
Meg VMeg
Here's a funny trend I've noticed: folks wanting to use web scraping tools for their research projects, essentially to index journals, because they don't know that it's already been done.
But can they actually get the bulk index data? I can't. - kendrak
They want subsets based on fields that are indexed, so it would be as easy as doing a search and exporting metadata. And both Scopus and WoS have APIs now. - Meg VMeg
We've had the same trend. (I'm trying to figure out how to talk with faculty en masse about the difference between licenses and copyright...) We've been working with EconLit to give a faculty member what he wants so he won't scrape-- for months. They are willing, but the amount of red tape is truly absurd. - RudĩϐЯaЯïan
If there's an API available, it still wouldn't be as much fun. #doitthehardway - kendrak
True, they did preface their question with, "How can I make this as hard as possible for myself, by redoing all the work that someone else already did and that the library pays a lot of money for access to?" - Meg VMeg
Any chance you could give me a sense of how much of this is going on? We're advocating for copyright reform in Europe and one of the publisher arguments is "there is no demand" - to which my answer is generally, sure there is but you don't see it because people just don't ask...I'm guessing this isn't really text mining per se but its a similar space - Cameron Neylon
I've seen mention of this sort of thing as being not permitted in some recent license agreements. Mostly business data, but still. Watch out for that if you end up helping them. - Holly's favorite Anna
Oh, these are bibliometrics projects that would be easy to do the "old-fashioned way", it just sounds cooler and harder and more DH-y if you use a web scraper and you've never heard of bibliometrics. It is truly nothing fancy, which is why it's funny to me. - Meg VMeg
Though it cheers me to think of Eugene Garfield as a proto-Digital Humanist. - Meg VMeg
Cameron Neylon
Another tree, a different cat...
2015-01-25 09.36.59.jpg
2015-01-25 09.36.21.jpg
This was actually a cub. There is a picture somewhere in here of a full grown cheetah up in the same tree which just goes to show...cats...trees....high stuff... - Cameron Neylon
walt crawford
Two-parter on my massive OA research: 1. To end the coyness, it will appear as an issue of Library Technology Reports (from ALA TechSource) sometime this summer, which means I'll do 15,000-18,000 words of reasonably tight, coherent presentation on the results and what they mean.
2. If there are one or two of you--max. three--who would like to review the rough draft of "Idealism and Opportunism: The State of Open Access Journals," let me know. The draft should be ready late this week or very early next; I'd need comments and suggestions within two weeks of sending the PDF. Reward: I'll send you a signed copy of the LTR issue when it appears. - walt crawford
[The Library Loon is not eligible, as it's linked to at least once. But then, the Library Loon isn't on FriendFeed. The BAE, whoever that might be, probably is eligible.] - walt crawford
Oh, and if it's not clear: the draft will be fully formatted (in a style resembling LTR) and will be roughly 17,000 to 18,000 words, or about 42-44 pages. One rough-draft chapter left to go; right now it's at 16,600 words, and the final chapter should be brief. - walt crawford
I'd love to but timeline doesn't work for me. I'll look forward to seeing final version though! - Hedgehog
Hedgehog: if your library subscribes to LTR, you'll get it automatically; if not, it should be $45 (with the first chapter free online). Dunno *when* this summer it will appear... - walt crawford
If its useful for me to to review then I should be able to do on that timeframe. This week tight, next week mostly tight (but with some plane time Friday), week after starting to clear somewhat. - Cameron Neylon
Hi Cameron, I'm mostly looking for library people, but I'd be happy to send you a copy. Hi others: If it takes more than 2-3 hours to read through it and tell me if there's something glaring that I missed/overemphasized/screwed up, I've done it wrong. That's really what I'm looking for; it will go through proper editorial and copyediting passes in any case. - walt crawford
I should note that the only journal I mention by name is PLoS ONE, of necessity given a discussion of publication volume. (That is: there are four OA journals I tag as "megajournals," but one of them--PLoS ONE-- has fivetimes as many articles as the other three combined.) - walt crawford
Caveat: That's as of the penultimate chapter. The final chapter might have one list of journal names as an example of OA presence in one relatively small field, namely LIS. Or might not. - walt crawford
<bump> Anybody else? - walt crawford
can't - must dissertate - but I'm sure you'll find someone good! - Christina Pikas
Thanks. No pressure. I rarely even ask (being, you know, an arrogant SOB)--but I'm ahead of schedule this time, so thought it was worth a try. - walt crawford
I have a big presentation on the 29th, so as long as I can start after that I should be able to do a review. - John Dupuis
np - I'd love to see a copy in any case! - Cameron Neylon
John, Cameron, I'll email you both PDFs when the draft is complete--either Friday or Monday, most likely. I don't plan to touch it after that until February 9, and even comments by February 16 would be useful. Thanks! (Could you each send me your email address--in email to I can send the PDF?) - walt crawford
Walt, I am no open access fiend, or even very smarts about it, but I would like to know more -- and would, therefore, be happy to look at your piece for my own education AND to help you out. If you want library type feedback without OA expertise, I'm your girl. :-) [will gmail that to you too] - Stephan!e•CogSc!L!brar!an
Thanks all! John, Cameron and Stephanie have sent me emails, and I'll send them PDFs. Three seems about right. - walt crawford
Megan loves summer
Is anyone familiar with / subscribing to Open Book Publishers, started at Cambridge? They have a library membership scheme through which libraries can support the initiative (and pay for downloadable access, etc.)
I know the founders, they're good folks. Coming from an academic, not library background but have built the operation up from scratch, essentially with no outside support. Its a freemium model (unless a specific book gets additional funding) where ePub/PDF etc are extra but online reading is free (print also attracts a premium over cost but not huge revenue there). If I were writing a... more... - Cameron Neylon
Cool, thanks. - Megan loves summer
John Dupuis
I don't think we have a thread here yet for the Springer/Nature merger. Some info here on what is and isn't included:
The most interesting thing that *isn't* included is Digital Science. If I were Springer that might have been the thing I wanted most, the forward-thinking, innovative group that will (you hope) set you up for the next 10 or 20 years. - John Dupuis
It doesn't look like a let's-us-and-Pearson-fight either, because what I presume to be Macmillan's higher-ed textbook arm remains separate. I thought Springer had a textbook portfolio? I could be wrong. - RepoRat
oh wait, now I'm completely confused. Macmillan Education *is* included, but the US arm of it isn't? Weird. - RepoRat
As for Digital Science, a disruptive-innovation strategist would call leaving them separate the right move; it prevents the Old Skool at both businesses from squelching DS. Springer might well want it, but would Springer be good to it? That's the question, I suspect. - RepoRat
The resulting behemoth will be a curious pushmi-pullyu with respect to open access and library relations. I have no way to even make a stab at predicting the outcomes. My sense is that Springer has a rep among librarians for being pretty chill and reasonable about things, whereas NPG... doesn't. Springer also saw opportunity in BMC, whereas NPG didn't really move until PLoS ONE kind of forced their hand. - RepoRat
DS may have argued not to be included so that they would not be squelched. - Joe
Is the Frontiers In OA journals part of the deal? - Joe
Heck if I can tell. Anybody else? - RepoRat
The merger is Macmillan Science and Education which includes Nature, Palgrave, Scientific American and presumably the investment that Nature has in Frontiers. Springer has a fairly substantial book business, less so in text books tho I think. Macmillan re-organised a while back and the old "US" and "UK" businesses (which weren't anyway) were recombined into vaguely sensible blocks - Cameron Neylon
As I said elsewhere I think including Digital Science would look like a full stack play that would scare Competition Agencies, or certainly give Elsevier grounds to object. - Cameron Neylon
Oddly, of the Big Evil publishers, the place where DS would probably fit best is Elsevier. But I think Springer too is at least somewhat focused on the 10-20 year time frame on how OA, etc, could end up changing things in a big way. - John Dupuis
Heck, my sense is Springer got there a LOT faster than Elsevier. - RepoRat
Re Frontiers, looks like not: - RepoRat
I guess I would say that NPG and Springer have both been innovators, but in different ways. NPG has a killer R&D department in Digital Science, whereas Springer has been pretty damn foresighted about business currents in STEM publishing. If the combo adds NPG's Build Cool Shit ethos to Springer's Do Good Business Without Being Total Jerks About It ethos, this could be good. If it... more... - RepoRat
Wish that FF technology could allow me to like RRs previous comment. - Joe
Cameron Neylon
Who do you get to say I am? -
There’s an argument I often hear that brings me up short. Not so much short because I don’t have an answer but because I haven’t managed to wrap my head around where it comes from. It generally comes in one of two forms, either “You can’t possibly understand our world because you’re not an X” (where X is either “humanist”, “creative” or “social scientist”) or its close variant “You can’t possibly understand…because you’re a scientist”. There are a couple of reasons why this is odd to me. The first is a ... - Cameron Neylon
I have bitten my tongue on "how is that not an ad hominem argument?" soooooooo many times... - RepoRat
Both ad hominem and usually followed up with "...and because science communication is like this and like that...which I clearly understand" which is somewhat...ironic in its symmetry. - Cameron Neylon
heh. that too. - RepoRat
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