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Carl Watson › Comments
Q1: October 2, 2009 - Kicking things off...Do you see Google's Sidewiki helping evolve community engagement for website publishers? Pros and cons?
It's early days still, but I think Sidewiki monitoring and (potential) engagement is at least something that community practitioners have to be paying attention to.
- Bryan Person
I think it will help during the development phase, but for day-to-day activities it could be a huge distraction.
- Lou Ordorica
One con right off the bat: No easy way to monitor when your company/brand/etc is mentioned on a Sidewiki. You have to do it manually by going and checking all the pages. Kind of a pain.
- Bryan Person
That will change very soon, though, as Sidewiki has an API that companies like Radian6 can use.
- Bryan Person
Could we talk about reaching the "radical transparency" level ? If yes, it's a good point for truly great and respectful brands
- Lilian Mahoukou
Who will own the conversation? Do my comments belong to me, or Google?
- Lou Ordorica
@Bryan Agree about your comment about "No easy way to monitor". Plus, did I read it correctly that site owners have no control over the comments? No way to delete comments? What about spam?
- Patricia Ooi
@Sue - right. I think it's more so a feature that Google is trying to leverage as their own expert community vs. giving publishers a chance to connect w/a different community.
- Sonny Gill
Imagine a product manager who lovingly crafts a product page, only to have it trashed with unsolicited side wiki comments like "this sucks," deserved or not. It could get real ugly fast.
- Lou Ordorica
@Patricia: Site owners *cannot* delete comments, including spam. They can only flag them for abuse. It's up to the "Google algorithm" to determine what stays, what goes.
- Bryan Person
@Sonny I agree with you. Publishers must have their say on it
- Lilian Mahoukou
@Lou: It certainly could, though, remember, Sidewiki only shows for users who've installed it in their browser. That's probably still a relatively small number.
- Bryan Person
@Lou - the comments are more so Google's than anyone's IMO. But the interaction is something that a company will HAVE to monitor now because Google basically pushed it on them.
- Sonny Gill
@Bryan, True. Still, this is Google we are talking about. I think Google should allow the site owner to opt out of side wiki. Not everyone is ready for it.
- Lou Ordorica
@Lou: One point to note: Content producers/publisher can post a comment that will always display above anyone else's. In a way, that *could* serve as the authoritative comment. We'll see.
- Bryan Person
What pros are there for something like Sidewiki? Easy entry into brand/community monitoring for companies who are slowly getting into that world?
- Sonny Gill
What about fake side wiki comments from the competition ?
- Lilian Mahoukou
yes it's not that hard to create bogus accounts and spam people
- Leanne O'Shea
@Sonny: The main thing I can see Sidewiki evolving into is a tool to trash sites, rightly or wrongly. If the comments were legit, then I doubt there would be much of an issue placing them into the brands existing community context. Anonymity breeds a consequence free environment, which has its downside.
- Carl Watson
@Lilian - good point. What is google going to do about moderation? Bigger question for them vs. companies who are getting commented on view SW.
- Sonny Gill
@Lilian Exactly. At least in a private community you can attach credibility to a person based on their reputation. Who decides trust with Side Wiki? A Google algorithm? I wouldn't feel comfortable relying on this.
- Lou Ordorica
@Sonny Yeah, I don't think companies are going to enjoy having public interactions pushed to them and not having some sort of control (e.g. opt out option like mentioned by @Lou) over them.
- Patricia Ooi
And it seems inconsistent. I've already seen sites were the ordering seemed odd.
- Leanne O'Shea
The only control I've seen thus far is Google allowing site owners to post an 'admin' message that will remain at the top of all comments. I did so on my blog to test it out.
- Sonny Gill
there is no opt in or out - you have to install sidewiki to monitor what others are saying. But even if you do there is little that you do.
- Leanne O'Shea
It's not - it just allows you to have your voice over your site. Not a lot of control really.
- Sonny Gill
@Carl: Posts aren't exactly anonymous. You have to be logged into your Google account to comment. Of course, it's not that difficult to create a fake Google account and start commenting, but still ... there is at least one layer designed to give some transparency to this.
- Bryan Person
@sonny @lou posting to sidewiki requires a google account which ties to your google profile. length and complexity of comment, age of your google profile, number of comments on sidewikis and votes of your comments seem to be tied to what floats upwards.
- Scott Moore
Q2 is up!
- Sonny Gill
it's not very transperant. You don't have to have much information on your profile and yes, easy to create bogus accouts
- Leanne O'Shea
@Sue: No opt-out right now, although I have seen some ways developers can try to block Sidewiki on their sites.
- Bryan Person
@Scott - very interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Important factor as far as relevance and truth goes in comments.
- Sonny Gill
@Sonny: Exactly and the lack of control from the brand side is going to be key, I can see this being pretty consistently blocked by most corp communities. The lack of Opt-in, the lack of a user history and lack of transparency will also be key factors.
- Carl Watson
BTW, I'm still skeptical that it will take off. Worth seeing how it develops, but remember that searchwiki and their new commenting haven't impacted brands on searches or new articles.
- Scott Moore
blocking it is not so easy, causes other problems
- Leanne O'Shea
@Carl - right. And as Scott just pointed out, the takeoff rate for more of a tech-feature like SW will be hard to grow IMO. But still, very early in the game.
- Sonny Gill
@Scott: You're right; it could be that this is a big fuss about nothing. Google doesn't necessarily have the best track record in this area.
- Bryan Person
well they can monitor it, just can't do anything about comments they don't like. Web owners cannot remove comments.
- Leanne O'Shea
On the up side, google says there will be an API which means a cottage industry of apps allowing site owners to monitor, capture, aggregate, etc.
- Scott Moore
Good point Bryan - relates to my 2nd question
- Sonny Gill
I'm currently fighting to keep a troll out of my site. He'd have a field day with something like this. I don't like it at all.
- Michelle
@Scott: True but my worry is that a company with the size and influence of Google makes this more of a factor, it very well could pan out to be nothing.
- Carl Watson
@Michelle - care to explain the situation w/the troll? Via Sidewiki or otherwise?
- Sonny Gill
@carl I agree. which is why it's worth watching. I'm skeptical because it has to be good enough for people to get something out of those side comments.
- Scott Moore
@Scott: Agree. I just made a similar point in my response to Q2.
- Bryan Person
@Sonny - I don't want to derail the convo with specifics about my battle. My point was that, when you have someone attacking your site, you have enough trouble keeping them from adding content to the site itself. Sidewiki gives them a venue that you have no control over to attack you.
- Michelle
I think Google should offer a "Side Wiki for Enterprises" This is a wonderful tool for distributed groups collaborating on web sites. Teams can annotate pages in development, and the meta information stays on the page. No need to track changes, bugs, in a separate system.
- Lou Ordorica
Really? Please say some more about what you mean.
- Leanne O'Shea
Michelle, your concern about 'trolls' echos my own. I'm not very much in favor of Sidewiki for exactly the reason that there is no control/moderation ability.
- Starwind
Understand your point Michelle. A huge concern that Google will have to meet head-on.
- Sonny Gill
BTW, it's not as though there is no control - it's just not in the site owners hands. Comments can be voted up or down and flagged for review. The link Sonny posted to in this week's welcome post is a really detailed explanation of what is known so far. I'll report it for convenience: http://searchengineland.com/google-...
- Scott Moore
And I've been watching the Microsoft site. There is a comment with high approval ratings that appears way down the page. The top comment actually refers to it, so the content is comparable. There is not way to explain the logic of why the comment appears where it does - except that Google doesn't like it and it has been quoted in a number of articles. There is nothing transperant about their monitoring process.
- Leanne O'Shea
Scott - that type of control may not be enough for branded sites, though.
- Starwind
Wouldn't you be concerned that the lack of participation from brands/companies could hurt them as well? I'm not saying I think SideWiki will take off but if it does wouldn't it e worse not to participate?
- Arié Moyal
Seems to me the brand/company really needs to participate -- respond to some of the comments.
- Starwind
So you're saying they shouldn't opt out of SideWiki?
- Arié Moyal
Not saying that - I think they need to take a hard look at the positive/negative aspects and make their decision based on this. If they take it on I think they need to be part of the conversation.
- Starwind
But would it be detrimental to the brand NOT to participate?
- Arié Moyal
Well they only choice you have at the moment is to remain ignorant about what is on your site, or download the toolbar and keep track of it, or engage in the limited ways possible.
- Leanne O'Shea
I think a community-oriented message from the site owner at the top of the sideWiki can be helpful in directing users, no?
- Arié Moyal
@Arie I would think so. Maybe even a little legal disclaimer depending on your site (I can see that health sites would be keen on making it clear that sidewiki comments are not endorsed by the site owner).
- Scott Moore
Q3: October 2, 2009 - Is Google taking from a company's community by giving people an option to share, but externally, outside of the company's homebase?
I think so. It's great for users to not have to log into each site and be able to comment everywhere but not so good for folks trying to build up a community of their own.
- Michelle
@Michelle - I see Google pushing this onto companies and their sites vs. something more natural. I could be wrong and prove to be an important feature, but will take some time to see that.
- Sonny Gill
Maybe. Also a weak shot across Twitter's bow. Most of those type of comments outside of the community are now on Twitter.
- Joe Kikta
I think that by having the UGC distributed between both Community and Sidewiki, and by Sidewiki only being available to those with the pluggin, there is an obvious impact to the content of a community. Even leaving the other issues aside for now.
- Carl Watson
@Joe - true. We all know the adoption rates of new features/platforms that get released in this space also. Don't think it'd be able to take away from the value of monitoring on Twitter.
- Sonny Gill
@Carl I agree. Tools that fragment the discussions in your community are not helpful.
- Lou Ordorica
As far as fragmenting the discussions, do you monitor Twitter for comments outside your community, on your community?
- Joe Kikta
@Sue - that's where I see the adverse effect of a feature like this. They're trying to silo community engagement, if your issue is what comes about.
- Sonny Gill
Skeptical at how much community sidewiki will be able to foster. There's no threading or replies. The comments can be reordered in any way based on votes and reputation (which can change). add to that that, at the moment, google is mixing in blog post with comments and it seems like it breaks the experience.
- Scott Moore
@Scott: Do you have a good example of a site where we can see blog posts being mixed in? Had heard of that but not yet seen it.
- Bryan Person
@bryan I admit, I am making an assumption based on reports that google is seeding empty sidewikis with blog posts.
- Scott Moore
@Scott - I wonder if given the breaking of experiences/interaction, if Sidewiki will even become a big enough factor for companies to care to monitor?
- Sonny Gill
@sonny good point. Maybe it will become another "slightly separate" channel to monitor ala twitter, getsatisfaction, or the general commentosphere. :)
- Scott Moore
I think the 'ordering' means that comments are always being decontexualized from each other. I think this just encourages people to right random rubbish. I know Google are banking on people responding to the content of the site, but....
- Leanne O'Shea
@Joe I think it depends. If your client is a significant brand, then it totally makes sense to monitor what fans and detractors are saying in mass social media spaces like twitter. Astute brands will do this themselves, or pay Seth Godin $400 to do it for them. :)
- Lou Ordorica
Just posted Question 4 if you haven't scrolled up. Hard to tell if it's not announced :)
- Sonny Gill
@Lou: Ha! From a selfish point of view, I do think it opens up monitoring service opportunities for agencies like ours.
- Bryan Person
I think it will have a tough time gaining traction because of the extended toolbar requirement. Also, it's more of a toy, IMO. Is there enough value to make people want to install?
- Joe Kikta
How much does anyone want to bet that Chrome comes with this already embedded in the Browser? it will catch because people are entranced with the possibility of being able to say anything without the consequences of social responsibility
- Leanne O'Shea
I think you can say the same thing re:sidewiki displacing community about twitter and fan pages So it's not terrible It's just difficult to manage in it's current form
- Arié Moyal
Sue: Good question Benefits: Ease of use maybe? No searching for where to comment.
- Arié Moyal
@Leanne: I think that's the plan for a future update of Chrome.
- Bryan Person
Joe: I think there are enough toolbar users to support it
- Arié Moyal
@Sue: Many corporate sites require a registration process for commenting. None of that with Sidewiki (apart from being logged into your Google account).
- Bryan Person
@Leanne - really good point. We can imagine what Google will be integrating come their Chrome OS release.
- Sonny Gill
@Arie: Know where we might be able to find out total number of Toolbar users, and how many could be installing Sidewiki?
- Bryan Person
Interestingly enough - people have already created scripts to block the use of Sidewiki on their sites: http://www.seroundtable.com/archive...
- Sonny Gill
@Sonny Maybe Seth will be installing that script
- Joe Kikta
he hasn't yet
- Leanne O'Shea
@BryanPerson Oddly the only think I could find was an article on cnn.com from 2003 where Google already claimed to have millions of users
- Arié Moyal
Is refusing to participate a good idea though?
- Arié Moyal
@Joe - good point Joe. He may after he catches wind, but I can imagine the backlash from the blogosphere :)
- Sonny Gill
@Arie They may actually have millions of users of the toolbar, but the extended version? Probably not
- Joe Kikta
@Sonny I think if he hasn't suffered from his current stance yet that he could survive backlash from blocking. :)
- Joe Kikta
@joe Google says they are planning to add it to Chrome by default. That might be interesting.
- Scott Moore
Last question, Q5, is up!
- Sonny Gill
Joe: True and not everyone wants to leave a comment... which brings up lurkers again...
- Arié Moyal
@scott Have you seen any numbers on Chrome adoption yet?
- Joe Kikta
@joe I haven't looked at browser share in a while, but this news story says they have about 3% of the browser market: http://www.computerworld.com/s...
- Scott Moore
Q2: October 2, 2009 - For a company as big as Google, why haven't they been able to utilize their brand's strength to build a strong community platform? Can Sidewiki create that expert cmty for them?
Big doesn't necessarily mean better in terms of community building. That hasn't really been Google's strength.
- Bryan Person
Right. Jaiku, of course, Google Video - never really built that much of a community following vs. other micro-communication platforms, and YouTube of course. Perhaps why they bought them :)
- Sonny Gill
Sidewiki has the potential to do that, but I'm skeptical of the "algorithm," at least at this point. People who contribute to a community expect some of kind of "response" to their contribution/interaction. And depending on how nutty the algorithm is--or is perceived--they might not get that.
- Bryan Person
Good points B. That's kind of where they separate themselves from creating a true community feature/platform with engagement and interaction vs. a place that's more to the benefit of Google and a database of 'expert' opinions on thousands of websites.
- Sonny Gill
Google Groups?
- Joe Kikta
@Sonny: Not to mention additional advertising revenue.
- Carl Watson
@bryan I agree. Orkut has been their biggest social/community play to date. Okay, groups, but that feel less social.... :)
- Scott Moore
Q3 is up folks!
- Sonny Gill
@Bryan Agree! I always think Google is "more of a robot than human". They are very good in tracking our passive activities (the site we visit, the site our blog links to, the feed we read, stuff we share with friends etc) but struggle when it comes to building active communities.
- Patricia Ooi
I really don't think that sidewiki will create communities. It's really just a mechanism for giving everyone and anyone the right to comment anywhere. There is not threading of comments, no capacity to respond directly. This isn't community building.
- Leanne O'Shea
@Leanne Good point. Maybe "Google Graffiti" is a better name for this service! :)
- Lou Ordorica
I vote for Google Graffiti as the new name! :)
- Joe Kikta
Joe - probably a more accurate name, at the least. =)
- Starwind
More like "Graffiti Board for the Disaffected"
- Leanne O'Shea
I may be remiss in saying so but the attitude in the Valley isn't very community focused at all... so I'm not surpised that Google isn;t trying
- Arié Moyal
It could be that most developers are intraverted and that there's still a "don't tell anyone what we're doing they might steal it" attitude in business
- Arié Moyal
@Arié I don't think you are out of line with your comment that community isn't the focus of many people in tech.
- Scott Moore
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