 |
|
| FriendFeed is the easiest way to share online. Learn more » |
Chris Heuer › Likes
How do you like this e-mail signature? Every employee. Every e-mail. Think this company gets social media?
Nicholas James, dennisfa, Dave Q and 125 other people liked this
Disclaimer: Emulex is a client of Paladin Advisors Group, where I am GM of New Media (or whatever title I have these days)
- Louis Gray
All those links in every e-mail are clickable, by the way. The B is for the main blog page.
- Louis Gray
what's the last logo? oh... heh.
- Jim Hearts FF
You can see all these logos on their Web site in the bottom right corner as well: http://www.emulex.com/
- Louis Gray
Including replies? because I really can't stand full signatures on email replies. If there's a lot of back and forth, the signature just adds clutter and gets in the way of the content. I like it on the first email in the exchange and then a perhaps a shortened version thereafter.
- pea ♥ fierce as a woozle
Pea, I think that depends on the user's Outlook settings. It is optional.
- Louis Gray
But in terms of getting the message across that this company is connected, yes, this setup certainly makes that very clear.
- pea ♥ fierce as a woozle
Oh if only Gmail allowed some HTMLy signatures! :(
- Travis Koger
GMail receives the sig just fine. Tested there and .Mac and Outlook.
- Louis Gray
So in other words, they don't "get" e-mail? :)
- Steve Lynch
from twhirl
If I saw an email signature like this, I'd click on all of the links just to see how active they are. Some people have all these accounts but aren't active, so what's the point? But of course this doesn't apply to you Louis. I'm just saying in general.
- Violet Mae Lim
Violet, these are active. I promise. :)
- Louis Gray
If that company were REALLY into Social Media, it would have just one link, to your Google Profile: http://www.google.com/profile... ;-)
- Robert Scoble
Robert, why show favoritism to Google? There's little actual social happening there so far.
- LogEx
But why make them click twice? That would just annoy me. EDIT: Also, I could maybe understand if the company didn't have its own site, but it does, why send them away from their own home on the web and give Google all that traffic?
- pea ♥ fierce as a woozle
Logical: I'm just having some fun with Louis. I personally hate tons of icons on things. So complicated. How do I pick? ;-)
- Robert Scoble
At some point, will you discuss the Paladin Advisor's Group more fully?
- DGentry
Louis: Looks nice! Looks better than my typical signature where I just have a link to my website and then a link to http://www.travishartwell.net/blog... that lists on my online accounts.
- Travis B. Hartwell
snazzy!
- Mark Essel
Robert has a free pass to tease or criticize anything I do. It's 100% fair game. I think Google Profiles aren't known well for folks to click through to yet. That said, Robert, bring it on. Here's the company's profile: http://www.google.com/profile...
- Louis Gray
And DGentry, yes, we can talk about Paladin soon. Promise.
- Louis Gray
Louis, I'm curious about the rationale for putting the Twitter link above the company website in the Google Profile?
- LogEx
LE: None. That's been fixed. :) Probably not thinking too much about it.
- Louis Gray
Logical: Twitter is the new website.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, now I know you're joking!
- LogEx
Logical: actually I was joking about the Google Profile thing, not kidding about the Twitter thing.
- Robert Scoble
Robert... after all you've said about Twitter and the fragility of SNS relative to your own brand?
- LogEx
Yeah, but where's your email address? LOL
- David Libby
Didn't you hear....E-Mail is Dead!
- Owen Greaves
I wish gMail supported HTML signatures. Been wanting to do something like this for years.
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
you can do html in gmail, with a firefox plugin Blank Canvas http://blankcanvasweb.com/pages...
- Robert Higgins
Yes, e-mail is dead. It is also required in order to create an account on how many Web sites!?! I think I was required to link my OpenID account to an e-mail address. So much for Identitiy 2.0....
- Steve Lynch
from twhirl
Looks sharp imho.
- Rob Schieber
what, no My Space link?
- Jeff (the メガマクダジ of FF)
Louis - I like the links on the home page, but EVERY employee gets that? I can tell you that lots of storage people are going to be scared by all of the "interwebs" stuff. I <3 the Emulex guys and know they're trying to update their image, but I'd think that most of them have bigger issues that learning to explain what FriendFeed and SlideShare are when people look at them funny.
- Stuart Miniman
Stu, I think I should use the word "optional". It's optional to everyone and every e-mail. And it's fine if some conservative industries aren't ready yet. It's time to shake it up.
- Louis Gray
Is it using Wisestamp? Very nice. FYI - Wisestamp is free, works w/ Gmail, Posterous, even the links.
- Liza
Is this seriously your sig for emails? Bit busy don't you think? Wouldn't a push to their website that has the actual list be a better use of that space? Also with email clients that don't do HTML its going to be lost.
- CW™
It's a bit much
- Rodfather
The nice thing about Wisestamp is you can delete the icons in gmail, if it is going to someone who you think has no idea what Slideshare is. Otherwise, wd be a pain.
- Liza
In my training of employees on how to do a Email Signature, (where the corp hasn't stated a standard) is to plan for plain text clients. Have your information there. Do one font only and stick to that. Nothing fancy in the font either. Get the information there so that the recipients can contact you or get more information about you. Company Logo's are only if you really need them. Key thing is to provide a sort of Business Card (information how to get a hold of you) at the bottom of emails.
- CW™
I tend to fall into the plain text camp. my signature is as follows: " -- 505.652.2878 http://sarahvela.net @orchid8 everywhere"
- Sarah is Novembery
Yeah, I like simple signatures.
- Andrew C
All the hyperlinks scream I'm spam & it will likely be treated as such by many mail programs.
- Rick Frank
Rick, very good feedback. It will be considered.
- Louis Gray
Too much. Too busy. I'd get rid of the office line, the link to lousgray.com, and definitely the emulex logo. Anyway that's just my opinion :)
- Eric Florenzano
They get it better than I do. I have to admit, I do not recognize all of those icons as they do!
- Randy Rambo
check out http://www.socialmediav.com they have a killer signature widget, both for personal and corporate brands! :)
- sera aktüre
Office and mobile phone? You need Google voice. I was able to get a cool number, (areacode) 4 Julio F
- Julio F ~ @SocialJulio
Just a simple link to a homepage should be enough, small description about what you do, and phone numbers if you're into that kind of thing.
- Peter Stuifzand
Too many links in an email signature can cause the email to be flagged as spam. you need to test it out before using it. never can be 100% certain...
- Mike Nencetti
Are those custom icons, or something pulled from the web?
- Spencer
How does that degrade? Are there alt tags? Does the text/alternative or text/plain part properly remove the HTML and still preserve the pertinent information? Accessibility is just as if not more important than having something flashy IMHO. (Disclaimer: I use a text MUA and you'll get me to accept HTML mail sometime shortly after the sun suffers hydrogen exhaustion...)
- matthew john ernisse
yes but what's it mean? More is not bettter.
- Jeremiah Owyang
Personally, it seems way too cluttered to me. I would rather just have a link to a page on the company's website that lists all of their various connections. I'm almost as jaded to those icons as I am to banner ads. If I want to know about the company I will be looking at their website first, then their blog, then whatever other services interest me, but I'll always go to their website first. If that's not impressive then it doesn't really matter what they're doing in other spaces.
- Her Lindsay-ness
they get it, but is it necessary? agree with others here that it's cluttered and sorta cliche already.
- Bill Kinney
Looks good to me. Simple. IMO, I would (1) bump name size +2 pts (2) maybe italicize title or choose different font, so it will jump out at you, but not as much as name (3) remove "www." from website. (4) I haven't seen this in real-life to look at overall point sizes. Often people's business cards need ALL pts sizes +2 to +4. As my 72-yr old Dad always reminds me, older people can't...
more...
- Mitchell Tsai
Simple and To The Point!!! The Purple " B" Logo...What Brand is That???
- @CtrlFollow
I had same question - never seen it!
- Susan Beebe
@louis - how'd you create a company google profile?
- andy brudtkuhl
Andy, A Google profile is just assigned to a GMail account. So if you create a centralized GMail account, you can make a company profile. This one, for example, is emulexinc@gmail.com. More on the strategy here: http://www.louisgray.com/live...
- Louis Gray
I think if they are all business related and it is for marketing- why not. There is another app nomee.com that does a card also. It is flash based so won't work on the iphone
- Kathleen Cercone
15 Exceptionally Useful Resources for WordPress Theme Designers | Vandelay Design Blog http://vandelaydesign.com/blog...
Chris Heuer liked this
Some pictures of Tuesday's Social Media Club South Florida meetup at the Doubletree http://thedudeoforkut.multiply.com/photos... by @TheDudeDean #SMC #SMCSF
Chris Heuer liked this
I wonder if anyone uses the new FF for any serious purpose. Before I finish reading something, it's scrolled off, replaced by the next thing. Feeding the whole write-only-ness of the medium. I anticipate even more mindless comments based on not having read the thing they're commenting on. Now they have an excuse.
Juras Vetrau, Marwan Osman, Eril and 61 other people liked this
Q is your friend. Also, use lists. And make your lists not too big.
- Meryn Stol
And you wonder why newbies don't get FF. :-)
- Dave Winer
I'm using FF all day long, and very seriously.
- Meryn Stol
Lists are your friends. And FoaF makes subscribing abuse hurt ... and bad.
- AJ Kohn
FF is serious bizness...iono what YOU talkin about.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
iono -- ???
- Dave Winer
I use it to bash Apple products.
- Alex Scoble
indeed Q is your friend - but that requires you to read the help files
- Bart LePoole
iPod/iPhone UI is more usable, no boring unrequested scrolling/updating features
- cyb
Agree with Meryn; you can just toggle off real time with the play/pause icon in the upper right of the content window. But I agree with Dave: the quickened pace of even a paused feed doesn't lend itself to thoughfulness. Brings to mind the whole Nick Carr "Is Google Making Us Stupid" idea.
- Tom Landini
I've almost replaced all my twitter usage with FriendFeed. (which was mostly serious) The realtime just makes it easier to skim thru more posts. I use the permalinks quickly on things I want to spend time on
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Dave, iono is teenage slang for I don't know. Mr Rahsheen was making a joke about the seriousness of FriendFeed.
- Cristo
Tom, I'm not missing any thoughtfulness on FF! I get very good comments, at least on my feed.
- Meryn Stol
But I wasn't joking. For me, FF represents some part of the future of "Enterprise 2.0". That's serious business.
- Meryn Stol
Dave, in seven minutes you've got about 15 comments here ... not sure how 'readonly' that is... do you're blog posts get that much response this quickly?
- Chris Heath
Meryn, I always take what you say as jokes. ;)
- Cristo
The flow is above normal levels right now - same thing happened when the beta first came out. But AJ is correct, there is not replacement for using Lists to manage your main feed into a stream content and frequency of one's liking.
- Micah Wittman
Pause button in UR is our freind.
- Melanie Reed
it's like google reader... but you don't have to push 'n'
- Andrew Davis
So let's assume FriendFeed has changed design to drive more people to its service and grow – what other reason may be, right? Now everyone from the 'pro' camp comments that you need to learn to use the 'Q' key and pause the stream, and organise your subscriptions in lists. Or, to put it in another way, that the default organisation is not suitable and everyone needs to customise it. How does this match with the desire of drawing new, inexperienced people to the service?
- Alessio Bragadini
Alessio: The UI is only busy for those with a large amount on subscriptions. Most new people don't. *Unless* they import all their Twitter friends... So indeed, it could be a problem. And if they import their Twitter friends, they might not know how to use lists yet.
- Meryn Stol
Actually, that's just an option you have. I pretty much stick with the primary live feed until it gets boring, then I dig deeper. Just like I kept telling people with the old layout...the good stuff will get bumped. If it doesn't, you're subscribed to the wrong folks.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Alessio: The point to me is that everyone can customize the UI to their own liking. I'm more comfortable watching stuff scroll by and then pausing when I spot something that interests me.
- Tom Landini
What might be interesting is for some FFers to make some screencasts of how they use FF.
- Tom Landini
I don't get the point of a new release if everyone is trying to customize it to look like the old one. Now FF is basically a chat.
- Carlo B. (brodo)
I was reading the comments to Dave's post and then poof the page refreshed. Heh. I forgot to do one of two things to get the feed to pause: 1) explicitly hit the pause button or 2) scroll back up to the top of the comments and quickly click on "Comment" before the page has a chance to refresh. My favorite is to pause the page using this latter technique. This will cause the edit area to appear at the bottom of all the comments and freezes the page. You'll still get to see new comments appear.
- Loren Heiny
Loren, just hit Q. It's the "quiet" keyboard shortcut. Also, you can freeze the stream just by moving your mouse over it.
- Jérôme Flipo
I think the shortcuts are great, but not easily apparent to new users.
- kilbuda
Because I push all my friendfeed posts and comments onto twitter, I really think twice before the mindless comments. I always try and ask "Am I adding value?"
- Christian Burns
Yep - Everybody. Find that old joystick. Fast ... slow .... stop
- Charlie Anzman
Jerome, I'll give your suggestions a try, but sometimes when I'm using my Tablet PC I don't think about where the cursor is or if I should have pressed the letter 'Q' to quiet things down. Not bad suggestions, but as more and more people browse like I do with a Tablet or CrunchPad or Apple iPod Touch SuperMediaDevice, I think the FF team needs to do a little bit more work.
- Loren Heiny
Dave: I pause the interface. I don't like the scrolling. Oh, and I'm doing everything else recommended here too.
- Robert Scoble
Dave, the "p" key will pause the interface if you need a shortcut. I just use lists and filters
- Jesse Stay
I think there needs to be a "Pause" button closer to each post, instead of just on the top.
- rob friedman
from twhirl
Gosh, I was just going to say that too. I pause the interface and refresh manually. I hate seeing stuff that I'm reading disappear down the page - and get lost somewhere on the next one.
- Chris Loft
I'm not a big fan of pausing - if I see an interesting conversation I just open the permalink in a new tab. You get a dedicated page that does nothing but update the conversation in real-time, with a comment box at the bottom. I think it's odd that the permalink is hidden as easily-overlooked "X hours ago" info, but other than that I think this interface works pretty well.
- Edward Coffey
You don't have to pause. I tend to start scrolling slowly with the mouse's scrollwheel when reading. When doing this, the screen and contents don't jump around. No need to pause.
- Diego Barros
What about if you click on a link? The contents can still scroll before you can read whatever was linked to and then decide if you want to comment about it. Outside of pausing the feed anything else you can do in this case?
- Loren Heiny
Loren - I click on the posting date/time link ("4 hours ago"). That gives you one thread in one window. Bottom of the thread still refreshes in realtime, but you can read everything at leisure.
- Eric Johnson
Out of the box the next FF can be frustrating. I also hate how, if I use the rollover from someone's name and subscribe to them, I then get redirected to the top of the page, and have to try and scroll down and find my spot again.
- David Eedle
Have to agree with you there. There were so many options for filtering content with the old UI. That's the main thing I loved about it, being able to cut through the noise.. I could see Best of Day from different lists (which I haven't yet found a way to do on the new UI). If there's no way to do this and get to the posts within those list with the highest engagement it takes away a lot of the value of those lists.
- Mike Elliott
Dave, newbies won't have tons of people that they are following so they won't have this problem that you are having before learning about pause. It will feel better to them to see some sort of action on a page.
- Thomas Hawk
It's like the FF Developers spent the last month obstinately refusing to read what people were saying they wanted and needed and what they thought of the new UI. "Nope, not reading what you're saying, got the time to read it, and it's right there, fuck that. Not gonna read it."
- Matthew DeVries
I find the best way to "stop the madness" (or pause the feed) is to move your cursor over any post -- that stops the scrolling until you move your cursor back into the grey. Not really obvious at first but works well. I rarely use the q key or the pause button.
- Brian Sullivan
it's a use case issue, I open new tabs for involved items I want to read and then possibly comment on - but I also use pause a lot - realtime was avail in previous version it just wasn't default
- mike "glemak" dunn
Mike is right. Tabs and pause work like magic.
- LeighaB
This is a pretty cool thread - I wonder if Dave has read the pile of comments that keep trickling in?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Yes
- Dave Winer
I agree there has to be an easy way to pause to be able to read or comment. I also don't like it if I have opened another tab with the contents, I return to FF to comment or like and the item has scrolled of to the sunset.
- TobiasVerhoog.com
why do we have a fear for new patterns?
- Phil Smirnov
I feel like whatever I do here is very short-lived and will ultimately be lost.
- Angela
Lists help a ton in terms of being able to control the noise.
- Louis Gray
Where's the UI equivalent for the keyboard command Q. Why isn't it obvious on the web page? It's just bad UI IMHO.
- J.D. Deutschendorf
J.D.: at the top of the page, in the blue bar, is a 'pause' button. UI equivalent to q
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Using the Q button isn't exactly the same as clicking pause. Clicking pause is permanent and will keep friendfeed paused even if you refresh the page. Q does not make it permanent.
- Alex Scoble
one reason I prefer using FF on the iPhone.
- ~C4Chaos
Wow! I'm just beginning to learn to use FriendFeed. I've had this account for, I'm not sure, 7 months to a year and I'm only now starting to dig into it. These comments where very helpful in showing me that this tool requires work and a learning curve. I like that!! I can't wait to learn more.
- John Michael Cannon
People can always press the pause button
- Euan
Real time is king in my opinion.
- Drew Lucas
from BuddyFeed
Interesting Drew - In that I've always thought the Real King was time.
- Matthew DeVries
@Mike Elliot's old FF's good UI for slicing and dicing: Amen. I'm looking for (and not finding) the ability to read feeds by type, i.e., by delicious, or by blog posts, or by tweets alone. Old UI had it. don't know if new one does. I miss those little kind-of-feed icons of the old UI. Especially for some rooms I created where I have a whole bunch of incoming sources -- they're all IDd w/ Room's icon (or default icon). Do not like.
- Susan A. Kitchens
Susan: new FF definitely has that option. Create a filter, include service:twitter (for example) and you're done. All tweets from you, or the people you follow, or everyone on FF.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
@FFing Enigma: How do you create a filter? I went to Help link, @ bottom of page, did an in-page search for "filter." not found.
- Susan A. Kitchens
@FFing Enigma: Oh. I found it. I should NOT have clicked "help" to find the answer to a "how do I?" question. What I REALLY should have done was click "blog" -- how obvious! Sigh. Userbarriers++
- Susan A. Kitchens
@FFing Enigma: Before: open Friendfeed, find icon on left. Click. Watch page refresh with results. [Total clicks =1] After: Go to search. type in something, click Search. Page refreshes to see results. Click Advanced option. Read all the Advanced How-to. Browse the many text boxes for the one marked "service." Do not find. Read directions closer. Oh! Type that in main search box. Type service:blog and click results. [Total clicks: 2, plus about 2 minutes of close reading]
- Susan A. Kitchens
Yeah that kind of obvious, already had filter function should have shipped with new FF, rather than having to build the filters de novo. There's a hundred services out there, and I need to build every single one of them, and those filters aren't stored in a nice filter library, the guild haphazardly spread among the menus.
- Matthew DeVries
The new interface works well for me but maybe I just don't participate on enough high-speed discussions to see the problem? The biggest thing I love about the new interface is that it establishes an interaction model that can be optimized and improved over a wide range without feeling too "different." The FF team will be able to tune its responsiveness based on how you use it, as well as how everyone uses it. It seems to me that they already have?
- Daniel Dulitz
What are you talking about, Winer? Pissing off conservatives and libertarians is hard work, and do I get paid to do it? NOOOO. I do it for love!
- Steven Perez
try this userscript : http://userscripts.org/scripts...
- Jammy Lee
P021809PS-0069 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! - http://www.flickr.com/photos...
HealingBrush, Mitchell Tsai, Wayne Sutton and 141 other people liked this
I vote that the next time we need a photo of Air Force one that we just have Obama take it himself rather than spend $328,000. He seems to know his way around a Canon body with L series glass well enough.
- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
Yet another reason I didn't vote for him. He's not a Nikon man.
- William Beem
hah, that's an awesome pic.
- Blake Caldwell
It is partisan issue ...
- Clarence Chiang
I always thought Democrats shot Canon while Republicans shot Nikon.
- Thomas Hawk
We should all be about saving $$$$ in this economy!
- Mike Andric
On a separate note, it is sort of cool that the White House has a Flickrstream.
- Thomas Hawk
@thomashawk it's really fricking cool that the white house has a flickrstream
- patrick
What he needs is for Canon to build him a lefty version. ;-)
- Brian Sullivan
I shoot with my left eye like Obama.
- Thomas Hawk
I don't squint when I take photos. Both eyes open.
- Akiva Moskovitz
I squint and after a day of shooting, the right half of my face is sore from squinting all day.
- Rochelle
Thomas: isnt he shooting with his right eye here...? may be u meant "...with left eye closed.."
- Roshan Ramachandran
damn, you are right Roshan. I guess I'm not left eyed like Obama.
- Thomas Hawk
Dems don't like Nikon. It's to close to Nixon. :D
- ChiliMac
Canon > Nikon.
- tabbr
I wonder if anyone has the guts to tell him that he needs to use his left hand to support the base of the cam to get less shake :)
- Shivanand Velmurugan
*obligatory roll of the eyes to tabbr*
- Anthony Citrano
So what do independents shoot? Pentax, Sony?
- Jeff P. Henderson
At least he is looking through the correct opening in the camera, something I would not have expected from our previous president... ;-)
- Jeff P. Henderson
Ashton Kutcher shoots Nikon.
- tabbr
I may be completely off, but judging by the way he is holding that camera, I can't imagine it is his or that he has shot it much. He looks like he's trying to shoot a P&S.
- Jeremy Kunz
He is holding it wrong. My guess is he would prefer to use the live view function but doesn't know how to turn it on. At least he isn't holding it back to front.
- CJPhoto
tabbr, I don't think any1 cares what Ashton Kutcher shoots (ofcourse he does get paid for it - you have seen the ads right?). Jeremy, CJPhoto, he is the president for God's sake, not a photographer :)
- Shivanand Velmurugan
Shivanand, you are right, and I'm not intending to knock him down, I'm just observing that I seldom see someone with a camera that is sporting a pro grade lens do that and I'm trying to guess why. I can hold a camera really well, but my pictures... well, that's another thing.
- Jeremy Kunz
he didnt order the crazy photoop
- Petr Buben
"I see cheezeburgerz" LOL - http://www.backtype.com/ricmaye...
- Ric Mayer
Jeremy, most people who didn't learn to shoot with crappy lenses in dim situations with manual cameras, don't go through the rigour of maximising equipment. I bet, the resident photog of the whitehouse, should take it upon herself to educate Mr. president, so we can all enjoy pictures from the viewpoint of one of the great minds of our lifetime.
- Shivanand Velmurugan
i think he's just goofing around here though. it's not his camera according to the caption.
- Nathan Rein
If I were a graffiti artist I'd make a stencil out of this photograph and spray paint it everywhere.
- Thomas Hawk
Anyone know what lens that is? Just curious.
- Patrick Binder
I almost seem to remember a photo of Obama shooting with a photographers camera during the campaign.
- Patrick Binder
Patrick: that's almost certainly a wide prime, either 24/1.4L or 35/1.4L. Probably the latter.
- Gabe
Looks like the 85mm f 1.2 to me.
- Thomas Hawk
that not an 85mm f1.2...unless my last copy was different and i am almost positive its not a 24mm 1.4 either.
- Carlos Ayala
Carlos: You're right that it's clearly not an 85/1.2 (the AF switch in the photo is obviously different than either the original or II version), but I'm having a hard time convincing myself it's not the 24/1.4.
- Gabe
Solid !!!
- Matt Long
@Gabe the reason i think its not the 24 is because of the distance of the red line and the top edge of the lens. now granted it could be the angle but it seems that the red line is further away (than the lens pictured) if it were a 24. too bad that there are no metadata/tags on this picture.
- Carlos Ayala
Carlos, how would metadata help?
- Gabe
cool!
- Susan Beebe
Any idea if that 5D is a MkII?
- Gabe
so oprah was injected into the twitter default list immediately - got a nice 700k followers and hasn't posted in a week - discuss.
Tim, Rajiv Doshi, Susan Beebe and 31 other people liked this
She has to go do bed without dinner!
- Dave Winer
The fact that this surprises anyone surprises me.
- Alex Scoble
The same is probably true for her followers, I'd be surprised if more than 50% get what Twitter is
- Jorge Escobar
attention deficit disorder?
- bob phillips
She's probably off evaluating JaikuEngine vs Laconica for her own Harpo-branded microblogging community site. Not.
- Ken Sheppardson
clearly the line that the twitter founders gave us about how people get on the list is a joke, but we knew that already.
- Allen Stern
Who? The nearest I get to following a 'star' is the British comedian Stephen Fry because he genuinely interacts and makes me roar with laughter. Mind you, FabooMama does that too :-)
- Sally Church
700K followers isn't social it's marketing. And they probably didn't see that much bang for their buck yet ... so ... off to something else.
- AJ Kohn
We knew that Twitter was going to place its "celebrity" users into the default list and especially oprah after shes increased traffic to Twitter.
- Nicholas James
I mention this thread on my latest blog post: Read/Write Twitter: Twitter’s real value is up to you http://cli.gs/78ZLP2
- Jorge Escobar
she is like 60% of those who try twitter -- they do not return
- Bob Boynton
I think it's unfortunate that there are celebs out there that don't harness twitter, but just get an account to gather followers. What's the point if you're not communicating? I'd be happy with just a portion of those followers (100k), but I actually engage.
- Kevin Elliott
I am laughing. Twitter's story is about to get worse.
- Robert Scoble
I am not at all surprised. I think the Oprah publicity did more harm than good to Twitter.
- rob
Fuck Twitter. Block me bitches.
- Brian Daniel Eisenberg
What's even funnier to me: Not that people are surprised but that anyone expected her to post regularly in the first place.
- Trish R
She had three posts today if anyone cares…
- Erik K Veland
she doesn't get it give the poor girl a chance ...she'll be back
- Thomas Power
We were discussing this a few days ago, contains some interesting point of views. "Does Twitter's Recommended Users List Give an Unfair Advantage to the Privileged Few?" http://ff.im/2nwsb
- Sharon McPherson
Maybe she is scared of the mistake Hugh Jackman made with his Ghost Writer
- Azzam
Hmm. Let's see. You build a website that people use for free. That website gets OPRAH to join... I'd put her face on the front page holding a big blue bird that says "follow-me!" tattooed on its forehead, even if she doesn't use it all too often. "Oh no! it's been a whole week since she hasn't updated!" - Who cares? Don't like the SUL? Don't look at it. Don't like Oprah getting followers? Don't look. That's the wondrous beauty of Web 2.0; user-controlled environment. Make of it what you want.
- Sociosophy Reviews
Her assistant is likely too busy.
- Jim Goldstein
that is why @oprah is fail. Plain and simple. #toughroom
- Drew Lucas
I think the Oprah/Kutcher try Twitter live incident truly was Twitter's jump the shark moment
- Brian Sullivan
What's an oprah? Isn't that like a vegetable or something? As far as I know, vegetables are not capable of using twitter.
- Jeremy Brooks
Who's Oprah?
- Matt Warren
lame
- Susan Beebe
SMCQ7 Brand control–is it possible? - http://www.socialmediaclub.org/2009...
iconic88 and Chris Heuer liked this
Build How-To Material to Grow Relationships - http://www.chrisbrogan.com/build-h...
Nishland, Chris Heuer, Neal Jansons and 6 other people liked this
Swine Flu Chart proves there’s no need to panic - http://www.inquisitr.com/23015...
 |
Chris Heuer, Carlos M. Gomes, Daniel Morgan and 18 other people liked this
lmao ... good one :D
- rama mamuaya
Nice.
- Louis Gray
lol
- nouhad
FF thumbnail conveniently cuts the image off so as to not spoil the joke!
- Glenn Slaven
The Official White House Flickr account has some amazing candid photos of Obama shot during his first 100 days in office http://laughingsquid.com/candid-...
Chris Heuer, Brandon Mendelson, Mekuria Getinet and 22 other people liked this
It's odd that the avg views on the White House Flickr stream is about 220. Nice find.
- Phil Maxwell
great find! now i just wish obama would tweet :)
- Violet Mae Lim
Good pictures.
- Louis Gray
Sun puts Internet Archive in a box, but will it stay there? - http://arstechnica.com/web...
 |
Daniel Rowley, Michael Kacer, Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie) and 2 other people liked this
SMC Question of the Week: Supporting our Peers & Ourselves - http://www.socialmediaclub.org/2009...
Chris Heuer liked this
Question of the Week: Responsibilities of service & community - http://www.socialmediaclub.org/2009...
Chris Heuer liked this
Here's Why Facebook's All Aflutter Over Twitter - Advertising Age - Digital - http://adage.com/digital...
Chris Heuer and Pico Seno liked this
Sarah models the blue Apple onesie she wore for the first time today. (A pink one is somewhere as well)
Mona Nomura, Ladybug Heather, Aviv and 22 other people liked this
It said size 6-12 months, so at 8 1/2 months, I figured it was time, even for this petite girl. And yes, maybe Matthew will end up wearing the blue one more than she will over time, but I think she looks great in blue!
- Louis Gray
louis thanks for these updates for the misses and i it's a look into the future mirror for our little boy and girl :)
- Jay Martinez
Jay, happy to help. One of the best books is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Healthy... (Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child) Get a routine going, and don't sweat the small stuff.
- Louis Gray
Jay, for book recommendations, we've had great success with this: http://www.amazon.com/Happies...
- Rochelle
I think thats a great Apple commercial in the making
- johnpiercy
Louis, Rochelle thanks for the book recommendations will check those out definitely.
- Jay Martinez
Give her little tummy a zerbert for me.
- Yolanda
How about a Linux onesie? Don't worry, you won't have to compile the cloth yourself. Seriously, though, rather stylish Apple onesie.
- Rishabh Mishra (p248)
Possible, yes, Matthew and Sarah will wear Linux onesies. Web and tech donations are always accepted. :-) (Microsoft included!)
- Louis Gray
Sarah looks adorable in blue! :) She's is really cute and playful!!
- Susan Beebe
Louis, you'd let them wear Microsoft onesies? In Matthew and Sarah's teenage years, how else will they rebel against their Apple-loving dad?
- Rishabh Mishra (p248)
Wow still no hair huh!
- Aviv
Social Media Buyers Guide Survey - Please Contribute - http://www.socialmediaclub.org/2009...
Phil Wolff, Howard Greenstein, Ian Wilker and Chris Heuer liked this
Please help share this so we can get some great advice to share with our members and other social media professionals within organizations...
- Chris Heuer
Last night I bought into the meme that #'s of followers matter again. I was wrong. Again. Here's why:
Roman Zolotarev, Gordon Saunders, Patricia F. Anderson and 94 other people liked this
1. If you base your ego on something you don't control you'll continually be unsatisfied. Now we REALLY don't control how many followers you'll get. It's like winning the lottery. If you thought that winning the lottery mattered in some way to your life then you'll always be unsatisfied.
- Robert Scoble
2. The list of top Twitterers now has no integrity and everyone knows it, so being on that list no longer matters. It's sort of like the number of results that Google says it has. That number is a joke too and no one pays any attention to it.
- Robert Scoble
3. Who is listening to you has absolutely no impact on your life unless you are selling advertising. Who is TALKING to you DOES have an impact on your life. That's probably why I spend so much more time on friendfeed than on Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
4. Even if the list had some integrity there would always be someone more popular than you. Even Barack Obama will be passed someday.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, there is a saying in business. When somebody doesn't stop talking, it's marketing. When they shut up and listen, its sales.
- Patricia
Was it Twitter's "Suggested Follower" feature that's changed your mind Robert? http://tinyurl.com/cc66ow
- Jim Connolly
5. Talking to masses is fun and I hope everyone gets lots of friends to talk to because there is some value in having lots of people to respond to your questions or bring you the latest news, but I find when I wake up in the morning I head first to my list with only 150 people on it. Why? Intimacy is more important than popularity to humans.
- Robert Scoble
But how else can you tell who wins?
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
Jim: yeah, that feature pissed me off last night. Why did I get pissed off? Because I bought into the meme that how many followers you have matters. But, it also reminded me that I am not in charge of how many followers I have. It is not based on any objective criteria (at least now, I thought it had at least something to do with objectivity and that you could earn followers by putting good content out. Now I see that you can earn followers by some subjective criteria and that led to this post).
- Robert Scoble
The list of top twitters has integrity - we know exactly what is and it's true to that - it's just not the way you would like it...
- yanwoo
6. Due to http://search.twitter.com and friendfeed's search (and discovery items) you can have conversations with people without having any followers. So, having tons of followers is having less and less value as people go to Twitter search more and more (or use TweetDeck's search features).
- Robert Scoble
@Glen: is twitter a contest?
- .LAG liked that
yanwoo: no, it has no integrity anymore. You have no idea why someone is at the top. You used to know, not anymore. Now if I worked at Twitter I could make someone go to the top of the list just by putting them on the suggested friends list.
- Robert Scoble
.LAG: all lists are contests. That's why they piss off so many people and why they are defended by people who are rewarded by them (me included).
- Robert Scoble
Robert: You will appreciate this then - How I deleted 23500 followers in 5 minutes (AND why I reset my Twitter account to zero.) http://jimsmarketingblog.com/2009...
- Jim Connolly
@LAG Some people obviously think so ;)
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
Robert, the # of people following a person on twitter is a bit like a black box. Sure, we know all the accounts that are following someone, but we have no idea if those accounts are real people, marketing spammers, casual users, or something else. Until I can point at a users account and say "This is a real person, I know how to tell 100% of the time" then follower numbers are meaningless HS popularity contests. However, I do feel like once a person gets over a critical mass of real followers, the potential
- Daniel Spisak
re: #3... if you are saying good things, and people are listening and being informed or inspired to do good things, then it matters. Maybe not to you, but potentially to others.
- LogEx
...for crowdsourcing becomes possible and this is where Twitter has a lot of benefit to the user.
- Daniel Spisak
Jim: you are a braver man than me. Based on my talks with geeks who are increasingly finding themselves distracted and addicted by Twitter and friendfeed I would expect more people to do that in the future.
- Robert Scoble
Daniel: due to retweeting and Twitter search (and friendfeed) how many followers you have doesn't matter to crowdsourcing (as much).
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Thanks! It was getting stupid - Now, I can enjoy the small amount of time I spend on Twitter and DON'T NEED tweetdeck.
- Jim Connolly
I don't think this new feature of suggested users is any different from the throwback days of twitter when we had 10 highlighted users on the public timeline a year or so ago. why were you not beefin then? People received "extra credit" back then too.
- Liz
Glen, how will you know you've "won?" I judge myself off of how many times I get retweeted. That demonstrates readership, credibility, engagement, interest, etc. Those are attributes I like judging myself by. Not whether I won some popularity contest by figuring out how to get Biz or Ev to put me on some subjective list.
- Robert Scoble
The LA Times was also unhappy: http://bit.ly/Zp61T It doesn't bother me too much. There are plenty of lists online, so I won't get too worked up about Twitter suggesting people to follow. It would be nice if they allowed users to suggest who ends up on that list. But, as Robert points out, numbers don't matter, conversations do.
- Paul Rodriguez
@scoble, @glen —then, godd*mn, I'm getting my *ss kicked on twitter! i should give up. i'm so far behind, i'll never catch up. wonder if there are performance-enhancing drugs i can take to get back into the game. .LOLz
- .LAG liked that
Liz: I don't even remember that. But no one ever looked at the public timeline after Twitter got popular. It also didn't let you add one group with one click.
- Robert Scoble
Jeez, Robert, you just caused me to read that whole thread about Arrington, look at the Find People feature inTwitter, and try out Mr. Tweet. Spent an hour. Did it do me ANY good? I doubt it.
- Francine Hardaway
from twhirl
Paul: @leolaporte was unhappy. People who make their livings off of advertising find this stuff disturbing because Twitter can decide who will have businesses on its system (number of followers could translate into money. @techcrunch says that already 2% of his traffic comes from Twitter). Me? I'll have to earn my money the old fashioned way: good content.
- Robert Scoble
Francine: I think this stuff is all good. It causes us all to think about the tools we're putting so much of our lives into. Hope things are going well for you, can't wait until you're back in Half Moon Bay again. Let's go get a drink, I have lots of things to tell you when you're back.
- Robert Scoble
@scoble: perhaps it's the advertising model that's broken then.
- .LAG liked that
Robert, what are the big drivers of traffic to your money-making content among friendfeed/twitter/facebook/flickr/etc.?
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: my referrer page usually has Twitter #1, friendfeed #2, Google Reader #3. When I'm on Techmeme it usually jumps to #1 or #2 for a day.
- Robert Scoble
.LAG: bing! Bing! Bing! You win the award of the insight of the day award.
- Robert Scoble
Content drives traffic, so it's the quality of the Followers not thew quantity
- paul mooney
Facebook has tons more users than friendfeed. Funny that you don't get lots of traffic from there.
- Bruce Lewis
Robert, it's hard for me to believe that you actually "bought into it" last night. You've stated numerous times and times again that followers don't matter and we understand what you are saying. But, if it is so hard to stand by what you preach, then don't preach at all.
- Michael Forian
Michael: I'm human. I fall into traps just as often as anyone else does. I make mistakes just as much as anyone else does.
- Robert Scoble
Bruce: facebook does not have the expectation that you'll discuss science or technology or news. The stuff that comes into my news feed is generally pretty fun stuff, but is not that. When I put videos into Facebook, though, it brings me good views and engagement.
- Robert Scoble
@scoble: but otoh, what are the alternatives to advertising? yes great content is critical, but it doesn't guarantee revenue or viability by itself. and then if you're a site with great content, eventually, you too, will probably end up advertising. i think the guys from 37signals have some wonderful ideas about how to survive and thrive using a different model, it starts with not worrying about being so BIG.
- .LAG liked that
I'm yet to see any convincing proof Scoble's human :) No one's online THAT much.
- Jim Connolly
I was a little confused because you at one time were saying the number of followers shouldn't be included in a tweet pagerank (http://scobleizer.com/2008...), so using the number of followers in this context shouldn't make sense either. Or do you see them as different?
- Todd Hoff
.LAG: if I had some answers I would be implementing like mad.
- Robert Scoble
The number of followers does not matter... to a point. However if you are a business, charity or person with a strong message to get out you have to also remember that your message means nothing if people don't hear it. So while the number of followers should not matter to your ego or self-worth, it definitely matters when you are shouting on the rooftops. You need a huge number of followers to have a greater impact. To that end followers are extremely important.
- Patrick Allmond
Todd: I believe that even more today now that the follower popularity rank thing has been messed with by Twitter's fooling with it with a subjective choice.
- Robert Scoble
Patrick: that is true, sort of. I can get my message heard without having any followers. I've seen that proven over and over again lately. How? More and more people are reading http://search.twitter.com or Friendfeed. Let's do a test. You open a friendfeed account. No friends. You post something. You tell me about it. I'll like it. That will put that item into view of all my followers. So, how many followers do you really need? None.
- Robert Scoble
Patrick as right. The hard thing is that # of followers is one of many things that do matter, but that we can't completely control. We have to constantly adapt.
- Bruce Lewis
Robert, Patrick is still right. What if Robert Scoble didn't have any followers? Who would you tell about your content then? Somebody has to have followers to make this work.
- Bruce Lewis
attachment = suffering
- William Harryman
"Zen and the Art of Tweeting" by Robert Scoble
- coldbrew
This is a great list and SO true! I still cannot figure out FriendFeed though. Many people who follow me on Twitter are just following to see if I will follow them back and are truely not interested in what I have to share and discuss as topics of interest.
- Hummie
Even if the list was correctly pointing out who is "the best Twitterer", why does it matter. Millions of people post that don't subscribe to anyone but just people they know. You need to not base your selfworth on the Internet and instead on your happiness.
- Jennifer
*in conclusion read the stream of "the REAL Shaq" his twitter diharreaha proves that # of followers doesn't mean the followed is spitting out gems
- sofarsoShawn
Would Scoble care about this if he were on it? I don't think so.
- coldbrew
Jennifer: if you are in the content business you are getting paid via advertising. Advertising is paid by "CPM" or, per 1000 readers/visitors, etc. Let's say you were making $25 CPM. Well, then, having another 10,000 readers is worth $250. If you can get those people to visit every week, that's a pretty nice chunk of change.
- Robert Scoble
coldbrew: I disagree. I am not allowed to accept gifts from the companies I cover. I cover Twitter, so getting this kind of reward isn't acceptable. I also care about the integrity of the communities and tools I use and interact with. I would definitely speak out about this feature and would pull my name out of it to protest that it was using subjective criteria to make people popular.
- Robert Scoble
Bruce: I know a lot of people who have lots of followers. I bet I would be able to convince at least one of them to RT my messages. If not, I get traffic from http://search.twitter.com -- just write about something that's trending and you'll get followers from that.
- Robert Scoble
So, basically this boils down to $, like most things. Personal motivation is an interesting topic in itself. Anyone that checks their web analytics daily (pageviews/ uniques, email subs, rss subs, followers, friends, etc.) is simply on a completely different wavelength than myself.
- coldbrew
By that logic, Scoble, you should request FF to remove you from suggestions, as you do not know, specifically, the criteria for getting on such a list.
- coldbrew
coldbrew: yup, when you do this as a business those are the things you care about. My wife, though, isn't doing it as a business and she still is caring about lots of those things on her Facebook account. So, even people who don't do it for money care about things like who is following them. It's a huge trap to fall into and one that isn't very satisfying. Humans are weird, aren't they?
- Robert Scoble
Humans are weird for a lot of reasons, but caring about popularity and influence is not one of those reasons.
- Bruce Lewis
coldbrew: that is absolutely NOT true. I already figured out the algorithm for how friendfeed works. Did you know that I'm NOT on the default list there? Here, try it. Open a friendfeed account with no friends. First of all, it will recommend NO ONE. Huge difference from Twitter. Second, add someone who does NOT follow me. I will NOT be on the recommended list.
- Robert Scoble
coldbrew: friendfeed presents a different list to everyone who comes here. Its algorithm HAS INTEGRITY. It is based on the most popular person OF THE FRIENDS YOU ADD.
- Robert Scoble
Just asked my good buddy and girlfriend about how many friends they had on FB (they' barely know what Twitter is). GF, "200 something" and my buddy, "No idea", so I'm sure you are having an impact.
- coldbrew
coldbrew: on friendfeed no one is getting rewarded who did not earn that recommendation FROM THEIR FRIENDS. This is one reason I really like friendfeed. Friendfeed really engineers things a lot better than Twitter and thinks through the consequences of doing something wrong or removing integrity from the system.
- Robert Scoble
Seems to me it was pretty inevitable as Twitter got bigger that any sense of meritocracy w/ followers would dissipate. I suspect more things will crop up to counter it's importance and offer different views of the best and most interesting Tweeters. Stocktwits is probably an early example of how Twitter may get sliced up. If that is a trend that plays out then #1 tweeter will become a database statistic :-)
- yanwoo
Robert, that's only partial integrity. First, that process has an accelerating effect that makes the most popular even more popular. Second, it's popularity rather than interestingness.
- LogEx
It is still your perception of some method for bestowing authority, rather than concrete knowledge, that is leading you to the conclusion.
- coldbrew
Logical: that is true, but that happens in life anyway. It is based on meritocracy, though. I spent thousands of hours on friendfeed last year when people thought it wasn't important to pay attention to.
- Robert Scoble
I'm speaking facetiously about "winning," of course, though some people seem to think it's a contest. Twitter's a bullhorn; even the # of retweets is a factor of how many followers you have.
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
I agree with Robert on this one, it is not the number of followers; it never can be the number of followers. What it should be about are people who like you, who you like, who you want to share information with. It should not be a clique, you need to allow new members in and allow for diversity of opinion, yet in the end it will always be about like minds, sharing information that has the ability to change the world, and if not the world, at least the location that you live in.
- Dan Morrill AKA Techwag
coldbrew: wrong. I've done extensive testing of the http://friendfeed.com/setting... feature and understand how that list was decided on. Plus, you can do your own tests to verify what I say. On Twitter the list is totally random and subjective.
- Robert Scoble
Glen: I disagree with you about RT's. I've seen people get massively RT'd who only had a few followers.
- Robert Scoble
Campbell, most of *us* knew where you were coming from at the outset. Your thoughts on retweeting are spot on.
- coldbrew
Scoble, edge-cases, especially anecdotal stories, aren't the stuff that comprises the guts.
- coldbrew
80/20 rule?
- coldbrew
coldbrew: You've got some good points to make, but it might be easier to move on if you'll first admit Scoble was right about friendfeed's recommendations.
- Bruce Lewis
coldbrew: oh, yes, there is an 80/20 rule here in place. Just like most of life.
- Robert Scoble
"admit Scoble was right about friendfeed's recommendations" You mean that they seem to be more equitable than Twitter? Or, something else?
- coldbrew
That one can empirically determine that Scoble isn't automatically on the recommended list. They aren't entirely a black box.
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: they aren't a black box at all. You can very easily figure out who and why people are on the friendfeed list. Oh, and the list is infinite and you can't automatically add the entire list, so you've got to click one by one and add people that way. There isn't a huge reward for being on the list the way there is on Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, my only point was that a person with 62,798 followers has a statistically higher probability of getting retweeted than someone with only 281 followers. There's simply more chance of seeing what got tweeted in the first place.
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
Glen: that's true, but is getting less and less true over time as more and more people use things like Search.Twitter.com. Anyway, I'd rather have 100 active followers who actually talk with me than 1,000 followers who are there just to collect my name on their follower list.
- Robert Scoble
Agreed, But the fact that Twitter's recommendations are a "black box" is not what indicated to me (a long time ago) that # of followers was not something to obsess over. Also note: FF does not make it easy to determine how many followers a given person has.
- coldbrew
coldbrew: true, but ffholic does that.
- Robert Scoble
Search only helps if you're happy to ride an existing trend. If you want to start a new trend it's useless.
- Bruce Lewis
I have 1000+ followers, but less then 100 I really know. So in essense, I have 100 followers
- Lorraine Ball
I don't use ffholic (it is funny that they use ASP.NET :-), but you'll notice FF obscures these numbers (probably based on values they would like to instill).
- coldbrew
When the community is small and relatively homogeneous, a scalar metric like follower count might be a reasonable proxy for influence/popularity. However, as the community gets larger, more diverse, and "multidimensional" a single metric like followers breaks down.
- Ken Sheppardson
It's a bit like eBay feedback: consider two members with a 1000, 100% positive feedback score. You can get that by buying 1000 fifty cent Pokemon cards or by selling a $X million worth of collectibles. The bare number means very little, at least when used to compare members.
- Ken Sheppardson
BIZ Stone's quote from the LA Times: Twitter co-founder Biz Stone acknowledged that offering “suggested users” wasn’t the ideal solution and suggested that the service might evolve to cater to particular users’ interests. “Right now it’s sort of like staff picks at your local bookstore,” he wrote in an e-mail.
- Jim Connolly
Your point is well taken, Sheppardson, that multiple variables should be considered. There was a rumor at some point that Twitter intended to monetize based on this suggestion "engine" which I do not believe had any merit. It is akin to allowing payment for organic SERP placement.
- coldbrew
I think it is ironic that one of the best gadget bloggers of our time, Ryan Block (who used to run Engadget), has 1/10th as many followers as his girlfriend, Veronica has. Veronica will see someday why this system has no integrity. Jim: that quote shows the kind of engineering care that Twitter puts into things. That might explain why I see the fail whale on a regular basis. Well, that just verifies that I made the right choice last year to spend much more time here on friendfeed than on Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I like FF better than Twitter and spend much more time here. You made the best choice in terms of quality. But I'm not convinced you made the best choice for driving traffic to your money-making content. Quality matters, but quantity matters too. It's a tough choice.
- Bruce Lewis
How much of Twitter's power comes from tight SMS integration, and why doesn't some "Twitter clone" just make a play for simple SMS services horizontally (B2B style)?
- coldbrew
Quality versus quantity. And at end of the day it doesn't matter *if* you're contributing good content and simply using the service. The follower number plays to a person's ego ... it is, in my opinion, a real drawback to the service. It encourages the wrong type of behavior. I think FF has intentionally made these stats less obvious for a reason.
- AJ Kohn
Bruce: friendfeed has been growing faster than twitter did in its first year. I'm pretty sure the quantity will show up here too. And, anyway, I do have a few followers on Twitter so I can reach the audience I want to reach.
- Robert Scoble
coldbrew: not much anymore. SMS mattered a lot more two years ago than it does today since the iPhone came along. It will matter even less in the future after more people get smartphones. But, yeah, it does matter a little bit today.
- Robert Scoble
Coldbrew: I think apps like http://www.tatango.com will provide the SMS glue. That's a cool company, I'll have a video of them up this week.
- Robert Scoble
I know about tatango. Funny you should mention that. They seem to be sitting on their hands
- coldbrew
"Intimacy is more important than popularity to humans" -Robert Scoble Or rather it is more important to those who are conscious of the love God puts inside all of us to act upon or not: (Matt.5:3) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage... (Psalm 42:7) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...; And this brings into perspective what we enjoy as opposed to what we love.
- Melanie Reed
SMS matters a whole bunch b/c it makes the field more open. SMS was built on the pager tech and I can get SMS when I'm out of phone range.
- coldbrew
All these problems will be solved when twitter acquires friendfeed.
- Edwin Khodabakchian
Ed, is that an opinion or are you airing fact ?
- atul abraham
from twhirl
Kambiz: I did not delete any comments here. Not sure what you are talking about.
- Robert Scoble
in our personal egoic minds, it should not matter, which is what you point out quite well - as I was expressing yesterday at NV09, I really tweet for myself... some ppl take that to extreme and tweet for themselves to be popular, playing games so they can sit at the cool kids table :( but bigger 'reach' creates more power to make a difference (when used for good). More access to network also means more access to better information (ie, my passport problem) which makes difference in our lives at key moments
- Chris Heuer
Good point re: who is talking to you, vs. listening to you. I've stopped following twitter people with a bad ratio - too many followers to who they read. Exceptions: hodgeman & anamariecox. I just don't like the ego of people who have big followings but don't engage.
- anna sauce
Last week, Mashable featured me as a twitter professor - in the 16th spot down the page http://mashable.com/2009... The first person listed was our friend (who you should be following) Chris Penn - he added 1400 followers in one day and I received just over 700 in same time http://twittercounter.com/chrishe... - http://twittercounter.com/cspenn (mentioned as real data point) IMHO the 'top100' shows the power laws of the A-List challenge in action, more pop u r, more pop u become
- Chris Heuer
Chris sounds like a catch-22
- anna sauce
Featured on mashable? Sounds prestigious...
- coldbrew
One must have amazing insight if featured by mashable, knowing how exclusive that site is about coverage.
- coldbrew
Nobody deleted comments, you just got confused about where you left your comments.
- coldbrew
If Scoble were covered by mashable for his usage of Twitter, he'd gracefully decline b/c it would be a payoff.
- coldbrew
Robert prove that you're not on the FF payroll
- Bob Sonin
Bob: Techcrunch looked into it. Arrington thought I should be getting paid by friendfeed. But I did not give friendfeed anything it didn't earn.
- Robert Scoble
Kambiz, this is the Dr. Jekyll post. You commented on the Hyde one. :)
- jcunwired
Then in the interests of full disclosure/transparency, what 'did' you give them
- Bob Sonin
Bob: links on my blog and tons of praise.
- Robert Scoble
nice work, cool
- Bob Sonin
ANA - perhaps, but not really - my argument is for disclosure so people know when its paid placement versus genuine recommendations - not passing judgment on the act, seeking clarifications and trying to further the conversation --- cant say its bad for everyone and then say I am dong something similar - more nuanced discussion then that, which you can read about in this post I just wrote http://bit.ly/30cKv "Is it ok for companies to pay to be featured users in Social Media sites?" (key is word USERS)
- Chris Heuer
Thanks for stopping by and dropping a link, Heuer. Stay classy man.
- coldbrew
Heuer, quick question: how many comments have you made without leaving a link to one of your own sites? [EDIT: specified type of link]
- coldbrew
@scobleizer, I disagree. Of course it matters. Number of followers matters and being at the top of the list matters. BUT, like the weather there is very little you can do about it, so it's probably not worth a lot of time worrying about it.
- Christian Anderson
coldbrew - generally about 90+% since I so seldom blog - on this page, with this comment 50% - is there a point you are trying to make? BTW - it seems I mistakenly was commenting on the other question (too many comments here and too many tabs open on my browser) - sorry about that --- do you not think that everyone has the right to start their own conversations and questions and then make others aware of that by sharing the link (insofar as it is on topic)
- Chris Heuer
I like your point #2 especially. Also, I have seen a few people who are gaming the system where a few people just retweet each other. Like they have a mob or coordinated thing to up their standing. Also, there are lots of people that are just trying to increase there followers and this is all they care about and you get junk Tweets and it fills the channel up with noise. Just fyi, if you follow lots of people you follow none. The channel will be crowded with junk. Trust me.
- Bill Romanos
Ana - are you asserting that people who have more followers then people they are following all have big egos? that they are not engaged? or are being disrespectful of people who follow them? (re: ur statement above) I couldn't disagree more vehemently with your broad brushed stereotyping - the majority of those with big followers and equal follower/following rations are quite the opposite of ur assumption - they are usually the ones in it for their egos - to be at the top of the list and using you to do so
- Chris Heuer
Ana, more importantly - what are your tips for dealing with the deluge of inbound communications from thousands of people into your SMS account? clearly you need unlimited text plan for $x per month first - then you need to resign yourself to the fact that you are probably going to miss things that are very important because of the decreased signal to noise ratio... This is a complex issue which IMHO requires us all to respect how other ppl choose to communicate, especially when its not causing any harm
- Chris Heuer
This conversation brings up a lot of ideas for me, but I can say simply that, in my gut, quality and not quantity is the way to go in ANY interaction. On-line, off-line, I don't care where. So, numbers without substance isn't going to do you any good on twitter or elsewhere. I guess the only time quantity works is for ad-clicks, because who cares if it is quality if you are just counting ad clicks.
- Martha
Heuer, I will spell out my point this time, though I do not believe it requires an IQ of significance to comprehend. You barely interact here on FF, and when you do, it is usually (>50%) in order to get people to take actions elsewhere (e.g. read your blog post, fill out a survey, etc.).
- coldbrew
Get it? Fairly insulting, imo.
- coldbrew
coldbrew - of course the real reason for putting a bit.ly link to my blog post that reframes this question is because I wanted to get the google juice from Robert - that is clearly what my track record shows to be true. Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that there are limits on the size of comment within FF... btw - with this comment, its over 70% of my comments on this page that dont have a link. wondering why you have a private feed - would be interested to see what you do without registering
- Chris Heuer
coldbrew - ah, so I am not native enough for you in FFand you dont like that I use twitter as my primary communications vehicle? well too bad - thanks for initially trying to thinly veil your insult and criticism and for ultimately feeling comfortable enough to insult me openly - no offence taken here at all because clearly you dont know Jack either...
- Chris Heuer
I realize having a private feed and not pimping myself at every opportunity would confuse you. I'm at a loss to explain it to you other than to say I value information and candid, honest conversation.
- coldbrew
PS - for people who actually care about these issues instead of trying to pass judgments on others, the very simple reason I request others to look at these things is so that we, as a broader community of practitioners, can connect the dots across communities to learn from one another and take collective action outside of any given echo chamber which creates insular feelings like those expressed by my new best friend here - thanks for making the point clear to all - I dont use FF daily, I am elsewhere often
- Chris Heuer
"for people who actually care about these issues "? Are you fucking serious? I have no ulterior motives, and I'm not trying to position myself as a "social media expert"; and, I certainly don't have a site that focuses on "social media" as something one should "leverage." So, before you go on espousing your integrity, take a look at the facts.
- coldbrew
OMG, what a spat! Chris, ignore him.
- Francine Hardaway
Frankly, I'm a bit tired of the sausage festival that is tech blogging. Veronica is a breath of fresh air. She has the power of "it" and "it" rules the world.
- Mattb4rd
@Scobleizer not that you'd worry, but I read what you write because it often gives me something to learn and think about that I would otherwise not find easily somewhere else. And you have a unique way of doing that. The fact that so many people choose to do the same is irrelevant to why I read your material :)
- Valeria Maltoni
Yes. When one is interested in finding some sort of "truth" through discussion, the best choice is to ignore those with differing opinions. Brilliant strategy, Hardaway.
- coldbrew
Hardaway, I realize you only came into this conversation at the last minute, but allow me to explain. There was a perfectly good discussion being had here, when Heuer (someone with whom you are apparently familiar) decided to chime in with a link to a semi-relevant blog post inspired by this very comment thread. He did not make his argument *here* where the discussion was being had, no; what he had to say required many more words than FF makes available.
- coldbrew
So, an entire post was written and Heuer made his weekly FF comment with "appropriate" shameless plug to his post. I suppose I can see how people that only come to FF occasionally don't grok the issue I'm having here, but that won't stop me from making it.
- coldbrew
I come here all the time, and often find a blog post comes out of a discussion I'm having here, or a comment on someone else's blog.
- Francine Hardaway
That is good. I just ask that you don't suggest someone ignore me for expressing my opinion. I'm no expert, but I do try to be informed about the topics in which I participate. I was offended, and I took it up directly with the offender. Please suggest to me what I might do differently in such a situation.
- coldbrew
I would have felt better about Twitter's recommended follows had it been some sanitized Google algorithm but this feels like some whorish self promotion and takes a lot of shine off Twitter.
- Ernie Oporto
from Nambu
i agree with @scobleizer here. the suggested people to follow in twitter has totally screwed with the 'meaning' of the rankings
- Chris Heath
Until WSJ publishes a US$/followers Forex rate I will continue to believe that number of followers is fundamentally worthless
- Jeffrey J Davis
For me, it was kind of strange to see the issues of "how many followers do I have" when I started reading blogs in 2008 for the first time. Seems like people like followers for many reasons (1) good conversations (2) boost to self-esteem (3) improve career prospects (4) share knowledge with others (5) etc... On the $ side, one of my friends with a labor-of-love website created over 7 years, now makes $1,000s/day (not thru advertising, but selling his own products)...
- Mitchell Tsai
Traffic can help connect people with services & products they like. In some cases, sharing pictures, articles, news about kids-friends-relationships, may be our gift to the world community. Sometimes, people are finding new jobs, developing new life paths, getting helpful therapy or support, or simply enjoying themselves. It's sometimes a little annoying for me to hear people criticizing other people who are here for reasons other than their own, but it's "free speech".
- Mitchell Tsai
Even with "trolls", I love the community on FriendFeed (Admittedly, I'm spending more time on Facebook...and unfortunately many people who share pictures there decline my requests to share them on the wider web, so I don't repost Facebook pictures on FF). More power to the people who are having fun accumulating "friends" or "followers".
- Mitchell Tsai
It's even useful to connect with 10-20 very-active-spammy-type-friends/followers. I no longer connect with spammers (unless truly interested in their stuff, which occasionally happens), but my few spam connections help me see if other people accept those spam connections. I suppose if my Facebook limit starts hitting 5,000, it'll be time to delete the spammers (after sending them a note explaining why I'm pruning my Facebook connections). P.S. Scoble, you rock!
- Mitchell Tsai
Good food for thought as I'm developing my conceptual 'follower' definition. I'm returning to value added in our network.
- ka3drr
Robert, you can easily speak about having follwers is not all. Having only a few followers/subscribers makes putting out even important stuff like a monologue. It doesn't make sense if nobody hears you if you speak. I think one can't understand how it is getting no attention, when he can write about "followers # doesn't matter" and getting >150 comments and >80 likes.
- Ryo / Fuck Facebook
+1 Ryo
- You.
Ryo: I regularly do things to get them into Google for myself to pull out later. The fact that other people are here doesn't matter.
- Robert Scoble
Ryo: it's funny, though. You don't need any followers to participate here in this conversation. So, why do followers matter? http://search.twitter.com displays your Tweets even if you have no followers. That way you can find other people interested in a topic. I find lots of things on google.com that have no followers either. Not saying that it's not nice if they show up (followers are wonderful) but they certainly are NOT a precondition to participating and having people participate with you online.
- Robert Scoble
Even if you *do* think they matter, using a save search in Twhirl can help you find folks to share with... I have 2000+ in Twitter and I'm nothing huge...just a bit strategic. ;)
- Cheryl Allin
The problem with an ego is that sometimes the holder of said ego cannot see over it ... well because it's an ego.
- Joe Breen
Robert, I can discuss here about things you started. But you know, if I would have exactly posted the same what you did to start this discussion, it would have never happened. That's the different. It's like, why are people going OUT to make a protest, because it doesn't matter if you protesting at home in your room.
- Ryo / Fuck Facebook
LOL, Ryo. So true. I can't tell you how many things I've posted on FF, and I get NO RESPONSE. I'm either painfully boring, or I need more followers so that I have a good chance of someone finding it interesting.
- You.
Prove that Techcrunch did not pay @biz $10,000 to get on Twitter's suggested friend list. They sure were not more popular than @leolaporte two weeks ago.
Wayne Sutton, Iván Abrego, Jay Neff and 114 other people liked this
Leolaporte deserves to be on the list -- he had twice as many followers as @Techcrunch did a week ago. Twitter's list is corrupt.
- Robert Scoble
Interesting suggestion but hard to prove or disprove.
- Liz
I'm out of the loop. Where is the list?
- Will Johnston
How about prove that they did?
- Omar Gallaga
Will: you go to friends/suggested friends on Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
wow's he's totally left you for dead, he's a smartie that arrington
- Bob Sonin
Omar: that is easy. Twitter has no criteria for getting on this list and mostly added big brands onto the list.
- Robert Scoble
Why $10,000? Are you just making up a figure or are you privy to some information? (As an aside, I see Brooke Burke on the list with 62,000+ followers. Wow, when did THAT happen?)
- Omar Gallaga
Bob: I will have the final revenge. In a year all the influentials will be on friendfeed.
- Robert Scoble
Yeah, I'm liking this, on the 'guilty until proven innocent' premise that Techcrunch seem comfortable in applying to all and sundry, including FB and Last FM within just the last week..
- Andy Connell
Scoble, interesting assertion, but... I must ask: who the f*ck cares? :)
- l0ckergn0me
I'm on the list, and I certainly don't have $10,000 to give anyone. Do you think I somehow bribed them, Robert? Hmm?
- Veronica
l0ckergn0me - I echo that sentiment completely.
- Mitch
who cares?? i'd rather follow that interest me. not how many followers they have..
- Terry O'Fee
Couldn't this also be taken as a statement on the morals of TechCrunch?
- MarkCarras
guilty until proven innocent?
- Mark Collier
I just noticed Robert's not on the list. Oh my God, I think I just figured it all out!
- Omar Gallaga
Robert, if you're so big on meritocracy, why have you, or the friendfeed founders driven by my ff posts without a 'like' or 1,000 retweets by now? You follow me. I've tweeted big news or quality stuff, and watch the "A-List" wait to see it from another "A-lister" before they'll retweet. Power liking some small fries mixed in with friends just so you can point to your proof is bs. Why hammer Twitter for the 1,000th time?
- Ed Shahzade /NextInstinct
so now we know Twitter's monetization strategy
- practicehacker
Way to spread FUD.
- Veronica
way to spread BS :P
- Terry O'Fee
Mark - yeah, gupi.. too complicated?
- Andy Connell
Hmm, never checked the list before. Wonder if new users use it a lot, or maybe I'm the only one who doesn't.
- Will Johnston
Ed: just today I Twitteted several people with fewer than 50 followers.
- Robert Scoble
Veronica: prove it is FUD. THAT is why this feature is corrupt.
- Robert Scoble
REALITY CHECK, ROBERT: NOBODY CARES. :)
- l0ckergn0me
Please... prove it's true. Is this just TC you're accusing, or everyone on the list?
- Veronica
Robert, you made the accusation. I think it's on you to prove there's something to your finger pointing beyond just... you know... your finger.
- Omar Gallaga
Veronica: I am not on the list. Neither is @leolaporte. We both had more followers than you did (and more than many on the list). Now I am wondering.
- Robert Scoble
@techcrunch and @veronica don't appear on my suggestedfriends list so is it a random list then?
- Iain
l0ckergn0me - Reality check .. YOU don't care...
- Andy Connell
Veronica - let's forget about Robert's question - being on that list provides more eyeballs and more pageviews for those on the list. for those of you on the list using twitter as a marketing platform (i.e. all of the list) - it provides more traffic and you know what that equals.
- Allen Stern
Note too Veronica that I did NOT say you paid. It is just that the criteria for getting on the list is corrupt.
- Robert Scoble
HAH! This is the funniest thing I've heard all day. Are you really just that bored this afternoon to accuse people of spending money to be on a suggested users list? #1 As Chris says, who the frak cares. #2 Do you honestly think someone like me or iJustine have that kind of money? #3 Wow, man, I thought we were cool.
- Veronica
I've made several "who to follow on Twitter" lists for the publication I work for and it's never just about who has the most number of followers. Maybe they just find the people on their list more interesting/appealing to newbies, from their point of view. Why do you assume the criteria is only "most followers?
- Omar Gallaga
Allen, I understand that. But the fact of the matter remains that I (I cannot speak for anyone else) never asked to be on the list, nor did I ever pay anyone to be there.
- Veronica
Veronica: I did not accuse Techcrunch of paying either. Read my question VERY carefully. I did accuse Twitter of making a feature that looks corrupt.
- Robert Scoble
Robert... Do you have any proof that this occurs? Is there any accounts of this occurring in the past (anecdotal or stated). I'm don't know either way but asking people to prove a something didn't happen without an established cause of suspicion is intimidation and, frankly, wrong.
- Johnny Worthington
use a twitter client bypass the suggested list. twitter don't own u :) u decided who to follow. the end
- Jay Martinez
from twhirl
If you are not accusing us of paying, then how are the criteria "corrupt?"
- Veronica
Veronica: the fact that Twitter is picking its stars with subjective criteria is corrupt.
- Robert Scoble
thanks veronica - yea my point is the marketing and "top of mind" that being on that list gives you special folks - i am not discussing the money point, robert is.
- Allen Stern
Robert -- aren't you the one always laughing it off when people unfollow you and saying that the number of followers you have isn't as important as the number of people commenting on Friendfeed? Now you're saying that if Twitter bases this list on anything other than number of followers it's corrupt? Or is your initial question in some third language I can't parse?
- Omar Gallaga
Veronica: prove you did not pay. You can not. The feature is corrupt. I can prove I did not pay to get on top of friendfeed. You can no longer prove that on Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
Um, Robert... they onus is on you to prove they did... sorry.
- Johnny Worthington
And what if they decide to rotate the list? If you're not still on there, will you continue to throw around accusations? Sounds like sour grapes, and you're better than that.
- Veronica
Omar: yes. Who follows you does not matter. But that does not change fact that this feature corrupts the integrity of Twitter.
- Robert Scoble
I agree with Johnny. C'mon, Robert! Show us some of that investigative blogging! Prove that TC (or I, for that matter) paid to be on there. Would you like me to send you my banking statements?
- Veronica
Omar: it is corrupt because you can no longer trust Twitters' follower numbers. The people who are most popular on Twitter did not earn their position through objective criteria. That is corrupt.
- Robert Scoble
I asked if you think a feature like this should be based solely on number of followers. Is that the only criteria you think is fair for making suggestions on who to follow?
- Omar Gallaga
Veronica: you did not earn a position higher than @leolaporte. So why are you defending this feature?
- Robert Scoble
Omar: it should be based on objective criteria everyone can figure out so no questions of propriety will stick.
- Robert Scoble
Allen is on point with his comments. Being on the list does equal more $. Regardless of how folks got on it. But again this list does show that who you "know" is critical in the social web.
- Kipp Bodnar
Perhaps, Robert, it is not a position to defend? Does Veronica use Twitter as a revenue tool? If not, this is moot.
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
I think you should enter some criteria to generate the suggested user list (likes etc)
- Iain
What criteria besides number of followers? That's the only one you've brought up.
- Omar Gallaga
Robert the influentials won't be on FF, it's just an aggregator, the influentials will have their own quality medium with distribution
- Bob Sonin
I do not know why Veronica is on the list and not @leolaporte so now I am wondering what is going on and no one can prove money and gifts did not get exchanged.
- Robert Scoble
I'm not defending a feature. I'm defending myself from being accused of paying a company to feature me.
- Veronica
Robert, you're a bank robber. Prove to me that you aren't. See how dumb that sounds?
- Veronica
I heard he stole $10,000.
- Omar Gallaga
That is easy: I have not received a gift from a bank I did not earn.
- Robert Scoble
In that case Robert, you are traveling the path of Joseph McCarthy. Rather than presenting evidence of corruption, you are throwing around accusations and telling those you accuse to prove you wrong.
- Johnny Worthington
Prove it.
- Veronica
Johnny: people are getting gifts from Twitter they DID NOT earn with subjective criteria. Why?
- Robert Scoble
@Scoble your headline is linkbait - but your point is valid - the recommender is crap. They should buy @mrtweet
- Chris Saad
I think Robert is making weak arguments, but his base point is sound--if there is an algorithm that is making those picks, then it's not very transparent. If the list is editorial, it would be nice to at least know who has made the picks.
- Eric Florenzano
Tell us what you think the criteria should be, Robert. Other than "being Robert Scoble."
- Veronica
@ev posted that they just picked some names. It's not really that big of a deal.
- Christian Burns
Veronica YOU received a gift from a corporation you DID NOT earn. I did not receive such a gift. This feature is corruptible.
- Robert Scoble
Great question Robert... maybe you should lead with that rather than dropping corruption accusations. I actually think there may be some underhanded work in a few selected cases but unless I have evidence, I'll ask questions first, set up witch hunts later...
- Johnny Worthington
Why didn't I earn it? Also, it's not a "gift," it's a recommendation.
- Veronica
I say the feature is done by hand and the appearance of impropriety is nothing more than lack of research by an intern.
- MarkCarras
@Veronica Robert is not suggesting he should be on the list. He has always actively worked to flatten these tools, not do land grabs which he could easily do. Suggesting that's what he is saying is not very productive.
- Chris Saad
Chris, it's hard not to take personal affront to this bad logic.
- Veronica
@Veronica, as I said his initial tweet is linkbait - it's clearly an exaggeration - but his underlying point is valid.
- Chris Saad
@techcrunch prove to us that you are not plotting to take over the world while you pretend to drop out and take pictures of tropical beaches. I bet you aren't even going to answer me.
- Christian Burns
Johnny: note that I did NOT accuse anyone of anything. PLEASE read carefully! I just am pointing out that some people are receiving gifts without earning them. This is why Fast Company forbids me from accepting gifts. So MY integrity does not get called into question.
- Robert Scoble
In that case, I'd like my gifts BACK
- Chris Saad
If someone added up all the pro ff posts, anti-twitter posts, link direction, they'd assume Robert was into the FF funding.
- Ed Shahzade /NextInstinct
This is absurd. What gift, in tangible terms, is being given?
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
Chris -- in a separate post Robert said " two weeks ago I was more popular than Techcrunch and @leolaporte was a lot more popular than me. Today Techcrunch is way more popular than either of us" -- that's flattening the tools?
- Omar Gallaga
Robert, your inflammatory remarks and accusations (and they are that, no matter how many times you tell us to READ CAREFULLY) come off as really childish and insulting. If you have an issue with a feature of Twitter, there are better ways of pointing it out than accusing people who considered you acquaintances, if not pals.
- Veronica
I just can't believe I am not on the list! I sent @biz 5 bucks too. WTF?
- Beebo Wallace
Veronica: you did receive a gift. Advertising is sold by 1,000 viewers. Ask Ryan how much 1,000 people are worth. You did NOT earn that gift by any objective measure.
- Robert Scoble
Must have some troubles with the American to Australian translation but without this thread for explanation, it sounds like you wondering out loud if Techcrunch paid biz to get on the list...
- Johnny Worthington
@Omar ok well that's an even lamer way of expressing the point haha
- Chris Saad
Beebo: obviously $5 wasn't enough.
- Robert Scoble
It's well-known you can't "prove a negative". Or make logic with such as "clearly, pigs fly, because we have a black president" - more to the point, that list stinks, and bad -- McCain and Tony Robbins are on my list, and a bunch of corporations.
- Richard ¿digame? Walker
Robert, you keep avoiding the question of what you think Twitter's objective measures should have been if not just number of followers. What do you think they should have been?
- Omar Gallaga
I've been saying for years that recommendations should be based on interest overlaps, still, no one listens. www.socialwhois.com
- Chris Saad
@scoble just admit you are asking Twitter to implement APML Profiling and Matching and let these people chill out
- Chris Saad
Insulting people is a great way to get a point across.
- Veronica
I think it is definitely a gift. You are gaining followers who are in turn being effected by your content. They aren't mailing it to you with a bow on it as in a physical gift, but they are making it much easier for you to generate revenue or web influence power.
- AJK
Robert, there is no such thing as CPM for Twitter because followers -- and recommended user spots -- are not bought and sold. Period. You think they are? Prove it.
- Ryan Block
Who gives a frak? Honestly. Accusing @techcrunch of paying $10,000 is stupid. How do we know he DID? Did Twitter contact you and say "the only way you can be on the list is if you pay $10,000?" And all the bagging on Veronica isn't necessary. It's a stupid list. GET OVER IT.
- Zach Flauaus
Veronica: it is interesting that you feel accused. This feature sucks. Some day you will see why.
- Robert Scoble
I feel accused because you accused me, and everyone else on this list. Not indirectly, directly. Oh, someday I will see why? When I'm not longer ON the list? Actually, Robert, that will be fine with me because I won't care. Because I haven't invested in BEING on the list.
- Veronica
Zach: I did NOT accuse anyone of paying. I am accusing Twitter of designing a corruptible list. Friendfeed's list is defendable. This one is not.
- Robert Scoble
Scoble obviously "deserves" some sort of recognition. If he doesn't get it, others must be paying. Right?
- coldbrew
Read about this and other social media revelations in Robert's next e-book, "Scobleized: Destroying Relationships, Throwing Out Baseless Accusations and Talking Down To Peers."
- Omar Gallaga
@Everyone who is saying the discussion is pointless just doesn't get it. These things are worth $. They seriously affect the way twitter works and who gets attention. Attention = $. Social tools are about finding niche audiences. If Twitter is biasing towards celebrities or given individuals (for whatever reason) it changes the medium and the message. Stop pretending that these things don't matter.
- Chris Saad
@Omar - LOL.
- Veronica
Robert... do you think that Techcrunch did pay biz $10,000 to get on the Twitter's suggested friend list?
- Johnny Worthington
This whole discussion is rather petty and absurd.
- coldbrew
@Johnny *sigh* he was making a point by giving a clearly exaggerated and baseless example. Our inability to prove it either way IS THE POINT
- Chris Saad
has anyone tried to find out how the suggested friends algorithm atually works or are we assuming its a manually generated list cos they haven't said much about the suggested friends feature?
- Iain
Perhaps the problem is that Robert should just say what he means. Also, still waiting for that objective criteria. Waiting... waiting...
- Omar Gallaga
Veronica: well since there is no objective criteria for being on the list and since being on the list is a gift of tens of thousands of in earned followers and since you don't care anyway why don't you tell Twitter to make the list based on objective criteria and pull yourself off of that list until it is? That is what I would do (friendfeed fixed its list after that kind of pressure). Not to mention I can not accept unearned gifts anyway.
- Robert Scoble
Chris.. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want my name used in this way. My issue is not with the point Robert is trying to make, it is the way he is going about it...
- Johnny Worthington
Scoble: "Prove that Techcrunch did not pay @biz $10,000 to get on Twitter's suggested friend list." That's not accusing @techcrunch paid $10,000 to Twitter? Twitter designed that list for who they (read: employees) think people should follow. Perhaps it was money, but I highly doubt it.
- Zach Flauaus
How has your follow rate increased since being on the list? My assumption would be that it has increased significantly since being on the list.
- AJK
Yeah, this is like a high school kid whining about his brother having all the friends, and mindlessly laying blame.
- coldbrew
@Scoble accusing @techcrunch is not making things personal. @techcrunch is a big boy and Arrington and Scoble are friends. It was clearly a statement to reveal ambiguity in the process - @Veronica no need to read any more into it than face value.
- Chris Saad
Haven't logged into Friendfeed for a long time, but this is rather insulting, Robert. You're seeing dollar signs and personal gains in # of twitter followers?
- Derek Reiff
@coldbrew I think everything is reminiscent of high school... I'm in the damn place. lol
- Zach Flauaus
Johnny: no I do not think Techcrunch or Veronica paid to get on this list but there ARE brands on there. Did they pay? I have no idea. But this feature is as corruptible as shelf space at Fry's.
- Robert Scoble
Robert -- you're saying that you would have asked to be removed from such a list had you been included? What if you and Leo were both on it, but this phantom "objective criteria" you keep mentioning was not transparent?
- Omar Gallaga
One man's corruptible is another man's monetizable.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Definitely Chris! Recommendation algorithms MUST be based on something else than "popularity". We've discussed this, you and me, often, and I still believe that these algos could be 100 times smarter using "personal relevancy" — I'm sure you still share this opinion with me :) I hope I'll be able to provide a proof-of-concept thingy (yes, the one you've seen) still experimental but surely optmizable.
- directeur
Omar: yes. I would be forced to remove myself from thiis list if added.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: To me it looks like a list of people who aren't going to overwhelm new users and people that are going to be interesting. The reason your not on the list is because you would flood a new user and might make them want to leave the service. And all Leo does is promote TWiT and doesn't really present much value to the newer users except to lead them to his show. Honestly Scoble there is nothing corrupt about this. This list wasn't designed for us anyways, it's for new users, just let it go.
- Jimminy
I'm checking out of this conversation now :)
- Chris Saad
Robert, that's cool, but again without the context of your friendship with Mr Arrington and this thread for explanation, .normal' people will think that the list is corrupt and, by extension, cast dispersions on the name of the people on it (which I think is a part of Veronica's issue). While your point may be valid about the integrity of the list, please be advised that your words will have an effect on those not on the inside of social media.
- Johnny Worthington
I am not allowed to accept gifts worth more than $100 and being on a list decided on subjectively is a no no for journalists. Especially those at Fast Company.
- Robert Scoble
@directeur - is it popularity, an algorithm, or just a random sampling of people the folks at Twitter have heard of? it doesn't seem to be randomized whatsoever.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Robert. you have more than enough people following now. Why does this bother you so much? it's rather sad.
- Terry O'Fee
Good point James. I never thought of those reasons for the picks. I think Robert posts stuff of great value most of the time, but the point is still very much on target.
- MarkCarras
Terry: the integrity of the tools I use for my living concerns me a lot.
- Robert Scoble
Robert -- did you ask to be removed from this Forbes Web Celeb list? Seems like that was quite a gift: http://www.forbes.com/2007...
- Omar Gallaga
Mark, sure, it definitely is not random! It can't be random and show the same faces all over the web (friendfeed, twitter..) You've described very well "popularity". But the fact is, that me "directeur" (a given user) would really like to see people who'll share my interests, this is imho the next step in socialmedia: connecting people "smartly", and providing content for users smartly too! and this could really be done (I've crafted 3 modest proofs of concept) using notions like APML. This is really DOABLE
- directeur
his ego would be mended! :P
- Terry O'Fee
I have no stake in whether Tech Crunch did or didn't pay someone to get @biz on the suggested list on Twitter, I do however believe that the twitter suggested list it self encourages herd following , and that those who have a massive jump in following over a short period, have a very shallow following, while those who acquire their followers over time have a much deeper following
- Kim Landwehr
I understand Scoble's point. His post is misleading and deliberately provocative, but the underlying point is fair: "Twitter's suggested friend list generates lots of followers for those who are on it." Decoding his original post: "1. Two weeks ago, @techcrunch was less popular than @leolaporte. 2. Then @techcrunch ended up on the suggested friend list. 3. Now @techcrunch is more...
more...
- Stephen Mack
The fact that we're having this discussion is just sad. Just one blogger's opinion, though.
- Ben Parr
Mark: I totally agree that Robert posts stuff of great value but he can throw controversial ideas out that he can't back up sometimes, case in point. The main reason that I don't see him on the list isn't quality but moreover the quantity of his tweets. I wouldn't want to be on the list either just out of respect to new users.
- Jimminy
Well, directeur, your model is incorrect unless it places Scoble at the top of everything. If it does not, you're taking a pay off :-)
- coldbrew
ben - i agree. instead of using this for what its meant for, people cry that they dont get on the top of the list. it's hillarious..
- Terry O'Fee
coldbrew :) No, Robert will be just like you in this system. BUT, there's something else and I've had the pleasure to discuss it with a very smart guy: AUTHORITY. This is NOT popularity, it's smarter (should be - because the current used definition in socialmedia is wrong) more specialized and could be done too (collaboration planned with that smart guy)
- directeur
directeur: The issue is that they can't predict who someone would like. We're talking about something that none of us should be using. It's an introductory tool not something you use once you have developed your network. It's impossible to create a recommendation that works using a non existent data-set. The only way they could modify it is if they ask the user some questions about themselves during registration, that's not user friendly. Would you like to be trown a bunch of questions when you sign up?
- Jimminy
James, very smart question, and yes it's doable. The content submitted by a user, the content a user likes, comments on, retweets is a very rich dataset that could be used to establish an APML profile.
- directeur
thank you, jason. probably one of the smartest comments ive seen on this useless conversation...
- Terry O'Fee
Robert, would you be in the same position on this if you were on the list? Or would you promote the list and the fact that you made the cut?
- Debi Jones
i wonder if he would of posted it on his website too...
- Terry O'Fee
Firstly, can you prove they did?
- sofarsoShawn
directeur: You didn't get me though, it's for new users they have no data, they haven't retweeted, followed anyone, hasn't liked or commented on anything yet. And the majority of people aren't going to have an APML. Therefore trying to pick people off of this nullset is impossible. Honestly if I want to follow someone on twitter I'll ask my current followers for suggestions. Starting out Tabula Rasa on a new service though it's not possible.
- Jimminy
Looks like we have a good old fashioned weekend BitchMeme going on here.
- Mike Doeff
what bugs me is it's impossible to find people/friends/followers with interests and careers outside of tech. I've been trying since October to get a good list of science posters, and I have a grand total of 1. Kiki Sanford, and she never retweets, so I can't poach people from her.
- Matthew DeVries
I don't follow @scobleizer because he's a twooshbag. But I did learn that @brookburke twitters, so I'll be following her.
- kchu
terribly done yes. Paid no. Twitter should just buy MrTweet or one of the location based twitter recommendation services so it would provide people close to the new people or related interests instead of throwing random bigwigs who don't respond, not related to their interests.
- BCK
Wow I can't believe you are getting so bent out of shape about this "corrupted feature" Scoble. I respect what you do but I had to stop following you because it was just too much and became annoying after a while. But seriously, who cares? Why is being followed considered a "gift?" And why would you tell them to take you off this list if you were recommended? That's just stupid. Being followed is like me walking up to you and saying, "Hey I read your blog." Is it not? I can't believe you reacted this way.
- Eric Bland
hmm.. look at it the other way: some new users are joining twitter and the twitter team is simply trying to improve the experience of those users so they put together *a* set of profiles to help. This is how it works in startups. Over time, they will improve that feature so that it is more transparent, targeted, effective but you have to start somewhere. I do not think that twitter is trying to bribe anyone: they are way beyond the point of needing to do that. Too provocative Robert!
- Edwin Khodabakchian
Honestly, I would never recommend @scobleizer, or any frequent twitterer, to a n00b twitter user because he would scare them away. Scoble is for hard-core users.
- kchu
The burden of proof lies with the party making the claim, as this is obviously not a case of prima facie. And even if it were true, who the hell cares? This is fascinatingly idiotic.
- Mouse
This entire thread reads like petty, petty bickering, mostly on the part of Robert. It's this kind of narrow minded, stubborn soap boxing that gives blogging in all its variants a bad name. I imagine what really happened is a few folks at Twitter saw some fun twitter peeps with a high profile name and a nice signal/noise ratio and decided to throw them on a list without much second thought and then moved on to more important business of the day.
- Joost Schuur
One thing I take away from this is that true journalism will never be dead. Robert saw something intriguing, something that didn't add up, something suspicious. In the Edward R. Murrow days, someone would have methodically, slowly, and doggedly chased the story, built the story and told the story. Bloggers however, have a whim and fire off a post. Yeah, it will precipitate the truth, as twitter is forced under the pressure of 100,000 voices to come clean or explain the algorithm, but I guess.....
- Matthew DeVries
.....I just find Murrow's way to be more elegant
- Matthew DeVries
OM NOM NOM ... hmmm these grapes are very sour today...
- Terry O'Fee
Robert Scoble is playing the Bullshit card on TC! I see a war coming...
-
The only thing to be answered by this unanswerable question is: you get tons of followers by being on Twitter's suggested friends list.
- sofarsoShawn
Hell, I can't even prove that *I* didn't pay @biz $10,000 to get on Twitter's suggested friend list.
- Glen Campbell, B.A.
I was on that list (@cinevegas) and did not pay to be on it. Somebody actually alerted me that I was since I didn't even know.
- Roger @ CineVegas
Also this feature is a month old, why now are you attacking it?
- Roger @ CineVegas
Lord all mighty. All of you don't get it do you? Twitter is about community, conversation, relationships. You are all to narcosistic to see that. Quit arguing like children. Just Twitter or shut up. Ge'ez! Act like an adult already.
- Norbert Davis
What if it's just who Twitter happens to want you to follow? Was it corruption when the video store workers would all post their weekly pics? Was "Steve" on the take because he pick 5 Warner Brother's films? They should tell how that list is compiled, but you don't defame to force candor. This isn't fucking Nam, there are rules.
- Matthew DeVries
The fact that this conversation happened on FriendFeed was not lost on me.
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
it screws with the integrity of everything on twitter. in every way. i have 18K followers, but am not on the list. maybe i got all those followers in some side-deal with twitter that wasn't disclosed? or one day i lose 10K followers and my competitor gains 98K. is it because @biz was given some stock? or they didn't like something i said? it could all be totally innocent but it still taints everything.
- Dave Winer
#followfriday = Communism
- Andrew Smith
The thing is that the Twitter Suggested List is simply corrupt because there isn't an actual method behind it.
- Tyler (Chacha)
Robert is simply saying the the list isn't based on popularity.
- Tyler (Chacha)
I think that is a valid statement (I think I've ended the comments.... boo)
- Tyler (Chacha)
ITS A CONSPIRACY I TELL YA! THE WORLD IS OUT TO GET US!
- Tyler (Chacha)
Twitter needed to pick some suggested names that would be most likely to get a beginning tweeter to continue tweeting. If Twitter decides that Hammer is the way to get people to continue using the service, that's Twitter's prerogative.
- Ontario Emperor
As long as it's obvious and transparent that this primer list completely due to some person or some committee's fancy with no metric whatsoever, then Twitter is doing nothing wrong. Have they admitted this? It should be apparent on the page itself.
- Matthew DeVries
It's brilliant way for twitter to expand it's user base from tech geeks to the larger populace overall.
- sofarsoShawn
It is quite reasonable for companies to make subjective recommendations to their customers. The Apple iTunes store, for example, provides several very subjective music, video, and app recommendations on its front page. Robert's employer just recently published a very subjective list of fifty companies that they thought its readers would find interesting. Time magazine compiled a list of 100 people they found interesting in 2008. Wait, wasn't Michael Arrington on that list?
- Steve Wilhelm
Robert's argument are weak at best, founded on the assumption that Twitter's "suggest" feature should only be based on a user's # of followers. While it would be nice to know how they choose who makes it on the list, I honestly don't think Twitter has to disclose it. This is a parallel to Flickr's "interestingness" meter, which decides who make it onto their "Explore" page. The fact they don't tell you exactly how the photos are chosen, doesn't mean that it's corrupt.
- Trevin
Prove to me that Robert Scoble is not an idiot.
- ld
Coming to this late, but just want to thank Chris Saad for laying out the objection to an arbitrary list of recommendations in clear and sane fashion. (As opposed to inflammatory fashion, which resulted in all this hot air.) Saad's right: attention = $.
- Ian Wilker
None of this will matter when celebrities and sports figures get on Twitter, and Twitter really goes mainstream. Scoble's 63K and Laporte's 90K will be dwarfed. Reality check: Twitter is much bigger than Scoble.
- Mohamed J
@Mohamed J I would much rather have scoble who is real on Twitter than some PR person for a celebrity.
- Michael McGimpsey
from twhirl
MichaelMG: I haven't seen the suggested users list but @TechCrunch, @aplusk, @the_real_shaq, @mchammer are not run by a PR employee. Plus, Scoble is too noisy for the Twitter newbie (who is most likely not a tech head).
- Mohamed J
Leather ♥ Donut - ftw.
- kchu
A few questions: 1. Does 'suggested friends' imply impartiality? To me 'suggested' or 'recommended' connotes a subjective opinion while 'popular' or 'top' implies a strict numbers-based ranking. 2. If a service's 'recommended friends' list is created by number of followers and is in itself the most effective way to get more followers, then how can this help but be a feedback loop? How...
more...
- Kevin Fox
Put a different way: Why do we assume that Twitter should only recommend the most popular people?
- Kevin Fox
Isn't this more about one person wanting a different set of criteria for 'eminence' in a list vs a set of criteria decided by another person(s)? Sounds like you should make your own list to your criteria; folk love lists and someone is bound to look at it. Their list, their criteria ... your list, your criteria.
- Colin Wheeler
Even when you are on holiday you are causing trouble Mike
- Chris Saad
just seems to me that twitter made a selection of accounts that might be of interest to a new user, trying to cover a wide range. Perhaps their criteria are not as ominous as you make it, perhaps they looked at a stream that someone new could feel would be accessible to newbies?
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
Pay @biz :)
- Josh Lam
@michael arrington HAHAHA!!!!! While I agree with scoble's premise that the list is fundamentally flawed. I do think this whole conversation is very very funny!!! Now has twitter responded with how they are making the list?
- Benno
i am convertible to 1 e-token of intangible 'value' in this imaginary perceived point value system of social media numbers
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
& i rate your performance by the # of sounded claps i make @ a given rate per sec w/ respect to the db emitted. right this sec, this is convertible to 1/3rd the popularity rate unit counted in the perceived cumulative total + 1 in regards to the gross popularity total i just made up and substituted from other people's realities assumed to be true. this is my derived perception of social media popularity that may change at any time and may be replaced for another assumption.
- sɹǝɥʇɐǝɟʞɔɐןq
Ah the smell of conspiracy in the morning.
- Robin Wauters
I think twitter should replace all the little avatars with Tom from MySpace.
- Wes Hoogenboom
Wow this stirred up a lot of shit. I actually have to go with lockergnome, why should we care. This article: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technol... clearly states that the suggestions are staff picks and therefore subjective. The people that sign up and start following the twitter staff picks most likely are going to be annoyed and bored with most of the tweets because they dont know those people and because they werent served with suggestions by interest..
- Kahlil Lechelt
This should be re-named as "pre-selected list", not suggested. Twitter is just trying to quickly increase usage for future monetization.
- William Mougayar
if recommend is synonymous of "most followed", then #1: @scoble you say the contrary all day long (followers are pointless) #2: this feature itself is useless since we just need a search engine "by number of followers". I therefore assume that twitter tries/is trying/intends to/ put value other than simply nr of followers. and how can you do this with objective measurable inputs? Finding someone interesting or not is based on your own standpoint. So the feature is controversial per se
- Jean-Charles VERDIE
I'd pay 10K to get a profile there, do i twitpic a check in?
- sean percival
To market my brand, I'd pay 10k, get put in front of 1m faces, and another mil or 3 over time after this post gets thoroughly read. All this attention is worth quite a bit more than 10k, wouldn't you say.
- Zax Stevens
My first thought was that they would sell spots on that list if they hadn't already. Robert's topic is provocative only because Twitter's added a feature that looks so baldly commercial. Not that there's anything wrong with it!
- Michael Pilla
Here's a simple test: Go to 2 different Twitter accounts you may have (e.g. personal/business). Check that list. It's the same! So, this isn't a "Recommended list" in the way that FF or APML might do it. It's not related to who you follow/don't follow & what you like. It's just a list that's marketed by Twitter- let's take it as it is.
- William Mougayar
"Robert -- did you ask to be removed from this Forbes Web Celeb list? Seems like that was quite a gift: http://www.forbes.com/2007... - Omar Gallaga" So Robert, how about it? Did you pass on the "gift" Forbes made you?
- Alexander Kucera
Wow, longest conversation every!
- Sweyn Venderbush
from twhirl
Omar and Alexander: I didn't pull myself off of the Fortune list because 1. that didn't end up getting me much of anything, certainly not provable. 2. It was a subjective list done by a professional group of editors and it was presented as subjective. 3. it reflected real-life popularity. In fact, one could argue that being high on Twitter and friendfeed follower lists is why I got onto Fortune's list. Before two weeks ago those follower lists had integrity. Today they do not. But no big deal, I'm over it.
- Robert Scoble
I didn't see him on the list.
- Patricia
This is eerily similar to a high school election.
- Oldengrey (Jay)
Twitter has a suggest list? don't remember the last time I used it if ever
- Jeff Quinton
Biz Stone - From The LA Times: Twitter co-founder Biz Stone acknowledged that offering “suggested users” wasn’t the ideal solution and suggested that the service might evolve to cater to particular users’ interests. “Right now it’s sort of like staff picks at your local bookstore,” he wrote in an e-mail.
- Jim Connolly
Robert: I view the Suggested Users feature on Twitter as a Staff Pick in iTunes. They have no relevance to anything else. It's just what the guy behind the screen wants to pin. I was very sad to read this. I love the idea that the individual user is beginning to rise over traditional mainstream media. It's something I've worked toward for the past 3 years. However, I see this as the death of journalistic integrity.
- George Force
Robert: You speak of Twitter's Suggested User feature being corrupt, however, within the same action you lay down egregious accusations. What ever happened to the days of fact checking? You have to keep in mind, no matter what your intentions are, you swing a big stick. Thousands of people are going to read what you say. If you do not intend for something like this to be taken as media, then you need to make clear what your intentions are.
- George Force
Everyone has been waging war to try to win the popularity contest, and they've focused so hard on this that they've forgotten the basics. As the paradigm shifts, we are starting to create a high tech sewing circle where the words slander and libel have no meaning. We all need to work a little bit harder to try to remember that there are real people with real emotions on the other end of the wire.
- George Force
George: read again. I did NOT lay down ANY accusations. I did not accuse anyone of anything, I just said this creates a situation where we can not be sure how they got on this list. Please read carefully. This feature is corrupt. Why does Ryan Block have 1/10th as many followers today as Veronica? (They used to be about the same). Because Twitter "picked" Veronica to be popular. That's subjective and ruins the integrity of the follower system.
- Robert Scoble
George: right. Subjective systems pick stars for weird reasons. Do you pay to get on the iTunes list? I don't know, but given the music industry's past of payola I really wonder. How did the brands get onto Twitter's list? Did they pay? Why Veronica and not Ryan Block? Ryan ran Engadget. He deserves to be on the top of any list too. This system is stupid and lame and not well thought out (which even Twitter admits in the Los Angeles Times this weekend).
- Robert Scoble
I understand that you want change on Twitter. I don't blame you for that. But why should they listen to what you have to say? You go onto their platform and out them publicly more than once a day. Twitter doesn't owe anyone but their VC anything. If you hate Twitter so much, then stop using it. It could easily be said that you're giving friendfeed a gift by going to Twitter and talking about friendfeed. Are you receiving a check from friendfeed?
- George Force
Your whole argument could then be boiled down to, "Twitter made a poor choice in thinking about their recommended accounts feature and it is poorly thought out." Good thing this was just an FF thread and not a blog post.
- coldbrew
There is no reason to say vile things about a service on their platform due to a matter of preference. If you don't like Twitter, stop using it. It's that simple. Twitter works very well for what I need it to do. friendfeed serves another purpose entirely. Twitter does not need to be friendfeed. You said in a different post about how we need to stop focusing on followers and start focusing on who's talking. I would say we need to stop focusing on followers and start focusing on what we're saying.
- George Force
George: I do not receive checks or any compensation from friendfeed. I didn't receive any compensation from Twitter when I talked it up a LOT two years ago (my readers got sick of me talking about Twitter all the time back then too).
- Robert Scoble
Now I'm going to go watch some guy get kicked in the groin on YouTube!
- George Force
coldbrew: who said this is not a blog post? :-) There's no real definition for what a blog is. Friendfeed is blogging. So is Twittering.
- Robert Scoble
George: I totally disagree. These are communications platforms and one of their uses IS complaining about how they are built. I used to use the telephone to complain about AT&T too. So there. :-)
- Robert Scoble
I'd like to wrap up my opinion about the whole subject in 2 sentences: 1) Who are you to recommend people to me? 2) Recommending people to me means that you know me, that you know what I'm **interested** in. i.e. Every recommendation algorithm that **IGNORES** the user is by definition stupid.
- directeur
Jason: I did not make any claim. Go and read it again. This time read it. Don't react emotionally. Read it like a computer compiler would. Parse each word. I will admit I was sensational and stupid. I did NOT call out Techcrunch. I called out Twitter. That's different. I did say that I am not sure how people got on the list. Why did Veronica get on this list and not Ryan Block? You can't explain it. Neither can I. So, that opens up the door to corruption and graft. Perception does matter.
- Robert Scoble
The only fault I can find with twitter is that it has created a new breed of egomaniacs.
- jcunwired
Because my name was used in Robert's post (and we discussed this ad nauseum on Gillmor Gang) I'd like to weigh in. I know it sounds like sour grapes when I say anything about this. And I suppose some of it is. I did enjoy being at the top of Twitterholic. And there's tangible benefit to it - it gives you cred (some, not a ton). I suppose Twitter leaves me off its recommended list because I'm not always a fan of how Twitter does business. That, in itself, points to a problem with how the list is generated.
- Leo Laporte
Why does perception matter? Because you are not even able to unemotionally read a sentence without reading meaning into it. Now, try to read a sentence (like what Twitter is communicating by making Veronica a star and not Ryan Block or not Leo Laporte) and add that same emotionality into it. THAT is what I was trying to point out.
- Robert Scoble
I do admit I made that point in a stupid and lame way, though, and for that I'm sorry. But it did get you to engage on this and think about it and for all the hurt feelings this morning THAT is a positive thing.
- Robert Scoble
If you don't think number of followers is important, then the "suggested list" is irrelevant. And I think that's what Twitter is saying. "Who cares if Whole Foods is acquiring thousands of unearned followers a day? We just want new users to have someone to follow." My point is that Twitter has immense power to influence the course of Twitter. This simple suggestion list thrusts some users forward for arbitrary and opaque reasons. This is why an open solution is ultimately better for us all.
- Leo Laporte
Leo: I prefer to use the words "algorithmic" and "objective" instead of "open" but I get what you're getting at.
- Robert Scoble
Look, Robert, I'm not trying to bust you up. I respect you and what you've done for the community. What I'm saying is that "Prove that Techcrunch did not pay @biz $10,000 to get on Twitter's suggested friend list," sounds an awful lot like an accusation. That's it. Hence, the focus on quality. People need to stop a second and think not about WHAT they're saying, but HOW they're saying it.
- George Force
@scobleizer That's because you want to preserve Twitter. I don't think _any_ private micro-messaging solution is adequate. It needs to be open, like email. No algorithm is going to make a proprietary solution acceptable in my mind.
- Leo Laporte
George: the point is that I don't know what the criteria is. So, you can't prove anything about anything on this list. That causes a perception problem for everyone involved. I know people who WOULD pay to get on this list. Why? At some point thousands of followers will mean money. I used to work for a magazine with 110,000 subscribers that made millions every year. This list ruins integrity of community. It is corruptible.
- Robert Scoble
Goodness gracious, folks. I'm in la la land right now and I still understand the point Robert was trying to get across. Pour out the Scoble haterade for two seconds.
- Shawn Farner
Leo: ahh, I see what you mean by open. I thought we were just talking about the recommended follower feature. Now that you are talking about the entire system I totally agree. I have on my to do list to take another look at Identi.ca. We should start another thread about whether or not that's the answer and if not, why not.
- Robert Scoble
I have to agree with Jason H. Robert, you DID accuse TC of paying off Twitter. You creatively arranged the words to make it look like you are not directly making an accusation, but we can read between the lines. You do have something against TC, but that is your issue to resolve, don't bring it here. Ba a man and either say it out loud and to Arrington's face or shut the hell up about this. If you have a problem with Twitter then bring it against them. Sack up or shut up. Investigate or go home.
- Norbert Davis
Robert, I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, and I'm certainly not becoming overwhelmed with emotion. Would you be interested in having a round table with myself and Ben Heckendorn on my podcast? Leo would also be welcome.
- George Force
I'm not trying to get ratings or promotion. I'm interested in this subject.
- George Force
Norbert: Mike Arrington (founder of Techcrunch and I are friends. I picked Techcrunch because he would get what I was trying to say. He speaks out against corruptible systems elsewhere (like his competition with Demo conference, which companies pay to get on stage). I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I did say that this system raises the perception issue. This is why journalists aren't allowed to own stocks in the companies they cover and why they aren't allowed to take gifts. This is a corruptible system.
- Robert Scoble
Scoble could post about the air-land speed of a European Swallow and get "engagement" much like TC and their one-word post, "Twitter."
- coldbrew
Twitter needs the cash, good for them. It's about time they found a way to make a little $. Also, I don't think popularity is the best indicator of a friend. @Techcrunch has been good to me, Leo on the other hand...(-;
- tarafireball
"And, therefore, Twitter is a witch. Burn Her!"
- coldbrew
Spill it, tarafireball. What'd Laporte do?
- coldbrew
Its amazing that this topic gets more comments than the ISP/wireless bill, that will affect us all.
- Joe K
Here's Arrington's post with 442 comments: http://www.techcrunch.com/2008...
- coldbrew
This post wouldn't have gotten nearly the attention with a less incendiary title. Even "I can't prove Techcrunch didn.t..." probably would have blown over quick.
- Bruce Lewis
It'd be interesting to see some eye-tracking type analysis on threads like this to see, on average, how many comments people read before commenting themselves. Seems like there's a whole lot of repetition.
- Ken Sheppardson
That's not entirely fair, Lewis, I wouldn't continue if I didn't have some assurance that some smart folks would chime in.
- coldbrew
There are 256 comments on this post. I guarantee you I'll not be reading them all before I post this.
- Rahsheen ™, Coach of FF
Rasheen, it is a summary about how they chose the Knights of the Round Table. Hint: The Black Knight always wins, b/c it is merely a flesh wound no matter what happens :-)
- coldbrew
FTR, I read every last comment (like always), sigh.
- coldbrew
As someone who moved away from just numbers to quality numbers, it's all a tempest in a teapot to me. I can reevaluate my relationship with either TC or Leo at any time, but the specter of payola makes it feel like 1999 all over again.
- Scott Pierce
I am amazed at the level of BS people are spewing here to grind their personal axes - also amazed that some people would take this so personally as an attack when it clearly wasnt an attack on them at all. Robert, in a rush to post like he often is, did not craft his words carefully enough and issued a challenge using incendiary language and referencing a friend (who will survive the debate clearly). This sort of thread is what makes Andrew Keen squeal with delight...
- Chris Heuer
Q1: is twitter adopting a pay to play model for being featured anywhere on its site? Q2: Will the user community (especially new signups) be better off if they are open about how they are doing it? NO DOUBT - FAIR DISCLOSURE ALA ADVERTORIAL Q3 Does this sort of advertising (and the sort that has GaryVee using adsense to promote his twitter account) have a positive or negative impact on folks or does it matter at all? does this use of money as power to get attention take away from open/meritocratic ideals?
- Chris Heuer
one disclosure piece - last week I contacted the folks behind twitter counter to see if we (aka me for Social Media Club) could buy a 'follow us' ad on their top 100 page - as the noise gets louder, we need better ways for getting noticed. http://twitter.com/socialm... was in the top 100 there for several months until recently being kicked off list by hollywood celebtrities joining conversation - Q4 should celebrities and companies be on separate lists - should we have user 'types' to differenentiate
- Chris Heuer
I own twegomaniacs.com. I will gladly accept $10,000 from anyone who wishes to be placed on that list :)
- jcunwired
How is this at all different from Google Reader's suggested content bundles, or the defaults that are included on start pages (some of which actually do pay to be there). Frankly, I'd have no problem if Twitter did charge for these spots, though I'm confident they haven't done so thus far. People are clearly willing to pay (see twittercounter) ... it's a good biz model
- Adam Ostrow
Robert, the fact that you claim over and over again that you didn't make any claims, makes it even worse. The implication is there, even if you didn't mean to suggest it. A lot of people read that implication as an assertion. You are a polarizing person, and people aren't going to be carefully parsing your words anymore. You must realize this by now, and if you don't recognize this passive aggressive aspect of your nature, then that is the real issue here.
- Joost Schuur
Why does it even matter if Twitter is 'broken' just because they don't have a perfect way to recommend followers at a time when they've just started opening up to non techies? Twitter suggestions have been available for a few weeks now. Can't we just let the system try and balance itself out for a while, before we freak out? Twitter is going to improve the system on their end, and some...
more...
- Joost Schuur
Joost: OK. It was a lame and stupid way to make a point but I think we are all adults here and everyone can see I wasn't asserting that corruption had already taken place. I just wanted to point out that this is a corruptible system that is rewarding significant gifts to some people in the community.
- Robert Scoble
It doesn't matter that Ryan Block has 13,000 and Veronica has 110,000. You are right. Onward!
- Robert Scoble
FWIW, I follow you, and everyone else on my list, because you post what I find to be interesting content. Leo is also there, Techcrunch is not, Veronica is not. Isn't it more important to have a fan base that is fascinated by the work you do than the random choosing of an arbitrary list that few people take seriously? I'm not a fan of suggestions in this regard anyway, not unless there is a compelling reason why I might be interested, and Twitter doesn't provide it, so its useless to me. No big deal.
- jcunwired
PC Easy: so not being on this list is punishment for bad behavior. Got it. That is why I hate subjective lists.
- Robert Scoble
Haha, we run mrtweet. We were #5 two weeks ago, and we were absolutely shocked by the massive increase in numbers by everyone. It is pretty puzzling for us - we are pretty sure we did not get recommended at all, since our growth remains very consistent. Oh well. ;)
- ming yeow
This is why the top Twitterer lists have ABSOLUTELY NO VALUE ANYMORE. I think Twitter really screwed up by using the suggested users.
- Bill Romanos
@ Robert: A) According to Merriam-Webster a gift is "something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation". So no, since you call being on Twitters recomendation list a gift, Veronica did not earn it neither did TechCruch and neither did Leo. B) Your statement "Prove that Techcrunch did not pay @biz $10,000 to get on Twitter's suggested friend list." sure sounds like an accusation of coruption. C) Your ranting is really only damaging your reputation and FF by association.
- ChiliMac
Who even uses this feature anyway? I know I don't. I'm only going to follow people I find from other people I follow. That way I'm getting people with similar interests not what Twitter or FriendFeed THINK I might like to follow. PS. I just checked out my suggested user list and TechCruch wasn't on there. Maybe because I already follow him. But, in that case, if Robert knows he's on there doesn't that mean Robert doesn't follow him?
- ChiliMac
ChiliMac: Re "Who even uses this feature anyway?" Every new Twitter user sees this list. After you sign up, you're first asked if you want to try to import friends from another service (i.e. Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo mail, etc.) The next screen is 20 users selected from an apparently larger (~100ish?) list --with all 20 checked--and a big "Finish" button. Following everyone in the random(?) group of 20 is the default for new users.
- Ken Sheppardson
I think Roberts problem is not that they implemented this feature but that the way it has been implemented. If the selection method was clearly paid or algorithm based then I don't think too many people would have a problem with it. It would appear at the moment that the criteria is just "people that I think are good". That is open to abuse as it has a bearing on the influence certain...
more...
- Anton Mannering
from twhirl
I bet $10 you are mentally handicapped :D
- coldbrew
Wow, I think you can get posted in Who's Who for only $35. Who cares?
- Todd Kulick
Well, it's either pay up or join the train of Twitter users who wave through the system and are fast approaching 40,000 followers even though you've never heard of them, nor have they ever added anything of value to your life. Coercion is a bitch.
- matt
gila kuasa, gila nama... (power crazy, name crazy!)
- Pajama Domain
How do I get on this list? I have all this money that Obama gave me to spend to stimulate the economy. Can I stimulate Twitter's economy? Where do I mail the check?
- Stephen Antonucci
This is a provocative post, Robert. iJustine did give Evan cupcakes. I remember their public exchange and acknowledgment. Was that a coerced coincidence or just innocent cavity propagation? I think the real power of the "suggested" followers "scam" is choosing high profile folks while including the lesser folks you have been calling out. The nobodies who are now the most popular proves...
more...
- David W. Boles
There are a lot of comments, so if this is duplicating what someone else said - so sorry :) If you want a great way to get a REAL recommended list, head over to HubSpot's Twitter Grader - get graded and there will be a recommended list below.
- Mitch Canter
lolololol
- "Joey"
Not trying to bash anyone, but I'm curious as to why people think that twitter is under any obligation to make their free service "open". Twitter seems to be saying that they reject the meaning of twitter follower counts as defined by others. Twitter's ultimate goal, I think, isn't to be a public service so much as to be a profitable company. "Their house, their rules" so to speak. If people want an open system, then they would probably prefer services like those that Leo Laporte proposes.
- James Brodman
James: For me it sorta boils down to a monopoly power argument. What's wrong with Twitter not being open (and thereby controlling the "micromessaging" market/protocol) is the same thing that's wrong with AT&T controlling the phone service market or Microsoft controlling the operating system market.
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert, by your metric, wouldn't any celebrity (tech geek or otherwise) also have an unfair (and unmeritorious) advantage in getting followers? Thus, having unfair influence? Veronica, you did get a gift. However, I am not sure you can earn a gift.
- Rob McNealy
"promotional consideration" disclaimers are standard practice in TV game shows. Why not on Twitter?
- Michael Markman
Why $10,000? Do you a have a copy of a check or a receipt or some such?
- Chuck Baggett
OMFG . . . I DID IT!!!!! I broke under 200lbs!!!!!! You're talking to a bitch that weighs 197 lbs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! More exclamation points = more excitement
Shey, Jamaican of FF, Darren Heydon, Ryo / Fuck Facebook and 116 other people liked this
this is awesome news! Congratulations!
- Zach Landes
HELL YAH! That's awesome Lindsey!!!!!
- Carmen
Congrats :)
- Rodfather
Congrats! :D
- Dee S.
woohoo! way to go!
- holly
You go on with your healthy self, Lindsey!!!! CONGRATS!!! :-D
- Anna Haro
CONGRATS!!!!
- Shevonne
WHOO LINDSEY!!!! That's so awesome! :D
- PENGUIN: MAJOR CAPS LOCK
F**K YEAH! edit: all the best. keep going further.
- vijay
!!!1111111oneoneoneoneoneeleventy
- mjc
*fist bump*
- Derrick
AWESOME!
- Michelle Martinez
from fftogo
Congratulations, that's awesome!
- Trish R
Yay Lindsey! I'm very happy for you. Maybe one of these days I'll find some motivation to do the same. I haven't seen < 200 lbs. in probably 20 years.
- Joey Gibson
You've come a long way since the Krispy Kreme Cheeseburger. Congrats!
- Pete Delucchi
CONGRADULATIONS. This inspires me to continue on with my own weight loss. I haven't seen under 200 myself in about four years. I'm at 218 now.
- Akiva Moskovitz
awesome!
- William Harryman
ROFL! YES!!!!!!!
- rowlikeagirl
Congrats <3
- Colby Olson
Thanks everyone! I finally just broke my halfway mark. And I admit it was tough but if you just keep going, it will happen. I think it's been 7 years since I've been under 200. Keep going Akiva and you better get started Joey!
- Lindsey is Fierce!
Keep it up!
- RAPatton
Fantastic! Bet you feel truly great!
- Martha
Congratulations! Awesome job, miss. Keep it up. You're almost there!! Exciting.
- ♥patricia♥
sweet!
- .LAG liked that
You sexy bitch!!! WORK IT!!
- nakachi
congrats - I know how hard losing weight is!
- Sarah Perez
+50 Sarah
- BEX
That's great ... Congratulations Lindsey!!
- Emma
YAY Lindsey! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Trish Haley
Wooooooooo hoooooooo!!!!! YAY!! Way to go Lindsey!!! :)
- Susan Beebe
LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Mark Wilson
RAWK! You show that elliptical who's the boss (and it ain't Tony Danza)!
- Laura B.
So you are saying I may pass you on the way up then?
- Louis Gray
I hope not Louis, those twins should be keeping you active ;)
- Lindsey is Fierce!
Congrats, girl!!!
- Katie: Witch Of The West
So we all want to know-- how'd you do it?
- Andy DeSoto
WELL DONNNEEE!
- Mo Kargas
Congrats!
- Anika
@Andy Diet and exercise . . . . diet and exercise ;)
- Lindsey is Fierce!
Awesome!!!!! Well done :D
- WorldofHiglet
I think my left leg weighs that much. Good job.
- Shawn Whitmire
YAY
- Dobromir Hadzhiev
Good Job!
- Peter Efland
Awesome! I know the feeling. Keep it up. What are you doing to make the progress? I am on the HCG diet including the teas and B vitamins which I get from the local health food store when I am in a hurray or online. I like iherbs because of their quality, good service and great prices https://affiliates.iherb.com/aw...
- RetiredTeacherD
NICE WORK. Fiber and yoga...that's all you need.
- Ryan
Congratz!
- Christian (Simply X)
Yeah! Congrats
- Tracy Benham
Congratulations !!!!
- Nia
Great job!! Keep it up!!
- tony
Onya Lindsey!
- Darren Heydon
Would someone please put up an OAuth-based service that is: 1. Brain-dead simple. 2. Useful. 3. Fully debugged. Thanks in advance.
Kevin Whalen, michael sean wright, Dave Martin and 6 other people liked this
BTW, I'd be willing to give on #3. I think somewhere in the Netflix stuff #2 is covered, but it fails utterly at #1. Beyond that I'm not seeing too much out there. Yahoo has some apps, but they don't show up much in searches, so I wonder if they're maintained/supported or if much developer activity is taking place. I think Twitter is carrying the flag on OAuth, basically, and I haven't had a call into Twitter work yet. No doubt its useful, but until I get something working I can't vouch for #1.
- Dave Winer
Aren't Plaxo using OAuth?
- Tyson Key
I think so, do you know of any apps they have deployed that meet these criteria? If, a page of docs, like the ones for FF and Twitter would be all I need to get started. I have a validated OAuth client implementation here, waiting to find something useful and/or fun it can do! :-)
- Dave Winer
I was going to suggest MySpace of all things, but seeing as they screwed up OpenID, I doubt they'd manage to implement even an OAuth-esque feature.
- Tyson Key
http://www.plaxo.com/api... might be of interest.
- Tyson Key
"Plaxo's API endpoint is accessible from http://www.plaxo.com/pdata... and supports both OAuth and HTTP Basic authorization. Our API endpoint and OAuth endpoints are discoverable from http://www.plaxo.com/oauth..., and also we provide an X-XRDS-Location reference there from our homepage."
- Tyson Key
Tyson thanks for the links, but this sentence is a big blinking red DO NOT ENTER sign: "Note that since the Portable Contacts spec has not yet been finalized, our implementation should be considered 'early access,' and it will continue to evolve with the spec." I should add #4: No science experiments.
- Dave Winer
This is the problem in this space -- too many meetings, too many supposed standards, and it all ends up way over-engineered and when you finally get something working the message is "Just wait it'll be great when we're finished."
- Dave Winer
No problem, Dave. I'll have a look out for something that's actually somewhat stable, next time. ;)
- Tyson Key
Heh, someone should get those folks to design a lunar rover, or something like that. I'd be shell-shocked if they got something that was even semi-functional after about a year of meetings and drafts...
- Tyson Key
Google supposedly support OAuth for certain services, according to http://code.google.com/apis..., but I don't know which ones.
- Tyson Key
http://code.google.com/apis... reckons that Google Calendar implements/supports it.
- Tyson Key
They also have http://googlecodesamples.com/oauth_p.... I have no idea about the completeness or capability of their implementations, though.
- Tyson Key
where eBay SHOULD be headed w/ (Skype+PayPal): 3B+ mobile wallets "Kenya, Turkey, Japan lead mobile money trend" http://www.reuters.com/article...
Chris Heuer liked this
YouTube tests download and Creative Commons license options - http://joi.ito.com/weblog...
Daniel Rowley, Michela Cimnaghi /cimny, Robert Scoble and 2 other people liked this
5 Companies Building the "Internet of Things" - ReadWriteWeb - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
barce and Chris Heuer liked this
Some Valentine's Day greeting cards for y'all, drawn by me, posted by @stevecla http://blogs.msdn.com/stevecl...
Valeria Maltoni and Chris Heuer liked this
41 Top Tips To Growing Your Social Media Presence - http://www.stanleytang.com/2009...
Seth Greenblatt, Chris Heuer, MK35540 and 2 other people liked this
To tell the truth - I expected some stuff in this page
- TrafficBug
Social Media and SEO: January 2009 SMC SF/SV Meeting - http://www.socialmediaclub.org/2009...
Chris Heuer liked this
Building out the Social Media FAQ - http://www.socialmediaclub.org/2009...
Chris Heuer and Nilesh liked this
please do add your social media related questions here - it will help everyone
- Chris Heuer
Are You a Social Media Scientist? - Left The Box - http://leftthebox.com/archive...
Dayna Marcum and Chris Heuer liked this
How to Use Twitterfall: Digg Spy for Tweets - http://www.blogstorm.co.uk/how-to-...
Chris Heuer, Tom Parish, DahnaChandler and Stephen Smyth liked this
"Twitterfall is a new application (kind of like Digg Spy) that lets you monitor upcoming trends on twitter. It was only launched a few days ago, but the reception seems very favourable. Although not groundbreaking, there are some unique positive points about the service. First off, it lets you view up to 60 tweets. The frequency of the tweets monitored so far is pretty fast, in fact faster than twitter search. By far the biggest benefit of the service is the customisation of your search trends – although this is in beta at the moment, I think there are some great opportunities to develop further."
- Isha (Marysia)
from Bookmarklet
The Shift to Social Capitalism | The Ingenesist Project - http://www.ingenesist.com/general...
Chris Heuer, Kent Looft, Anthony Baker and 2 other people liked this
With failing financial structure, Social capital, creative capital, and intellectual capital will increasingly behave like tangible assets.
- dan
from Bookmarklet
Hasn't it always been about who you know, and not what you know?
- coldbrew
Other ways to read this feed:
