Sigh. I guess between DLK and Griffey, we're back on the "This time it's different" cycle... I'll have to write some posts/articles when this week's disruption calms down. - Walt Crawford

I don't know if I have the energy to get into this one. I think it is important to try to envision a future of the library that could be radically different than what it is today, but also think there's some Wired-magazine damage going on in Griffey and King's posts. I have been working in libraries for 10+ years and have seen printed journals steadily fade in that time, but certainly not disappear. I have yet to see printed books fade at all, so I assume it will take much longer for them to do so. - s t e v e

It might be obvious, but I don't have your perspective on the last library revolution, & I welcome reading it. But don't expect me or DLK or Griffey (not that I presume to speak for them) to be any less excited because it's all happened before. I hope that we will learn from what came before, and I know that our cultural institutions, our rights to privacy, the content that we want to use and re-use, the systems through which we use it and the spaces IN which we use them will be better for our efforts. - Cindi Trainor

I think Walt is saying that it has all been *predicted* before and didn't really pan out as the kind of revolution that people thought it would be. (I assume you were addressing him, rather than me.) - s t e v e

I like the idea of "wired-magazine damage", although in my case it might trace back to Mondo 2000 levels of damage. :-) - Jason Griffey

Which makes me shrug. People predicted the housing bubble several years early. The evidence they were looking at was the right evidence, they were looking at it correctly, and they were right on nearly all counts. They were just EARLY. - D0r0th34

You're right Steve - I think we hit "Post" at the same time. Whatever Walt is saying, I still want to read it. I like your take on it though. Can you say more about what you mean by "Wired-magazine damage"? NB: it's the only paper publication I read with any regularity. - Cindi Trainor

I will say that predicting the death of print is cliche, but so was predicting the death of music on physical media just a few years ago. But iTunes is the largest seller of music in the US. Are CD's gone? No, but they are dead. There is a confluence of things that do make it feel like this time is is different. Mostly it is the economic model that DLK talks about...when it is no longer profitable to produce printed material, publishers won't do it, period. And that day is approaching. - Jason Griffey

The day is coming when books aren't going to be printed? Um...sure, but I can't imagine it will be anytime soon. The only people I know who own Kindles or who read e-books on their iPhones are librarians, and it's a small percentage of the librarians I know. Printed books will be around for a long time yet. (Printed magazines and newspapers will probably go away sooner.) - josh neff, geek at large

"Wired magazine damage" = having too rosy a view of the electronic future, a short memory for bad predictions, and the sense that everyone is in the same iPhone-owning demographic. - s t e v e

Otherwise, it's an interesting discussion, but it makes my head hurt. Not sure where it gets us really, but I think it's fun when stuff gets stirred up like this. - s t e v e

I have not yet seen a Kindle in Kentucky. The only person I've ever seen (for sure) reading a book on an iPod is my husband. I am a huge Star Trek fan and hope we can get there one day. Steve Lawson is my William Gibson; while Griffey is my Neal Stephenson. Discuss. - Cindi Trainor

How many people reading paper books do you see where you are, Cindi? Especially outside library walls? - D0r0th34

Cindi - In Kentucky kindle is what they use to start a fire. I'm sure Dawn's uncle in Lexington has a Kindle or reads from an Ipod. I'll have to ask him. - Alan Simpson

How telling is it that we call them "paper books" now? (kidding) I'd have to say I see no more or fewer people reading books than I did a few years ago, but I have no scientific data. On campus, I see many, many people using laptops and cell phones and the occasional iPhone or iPod. - Cindi Trainor

No, Alan, that's "kinlin." <g> - Cindi Trainor

Here in Maryland we are still doing a brisk business in the loaning of "paper books". I still read a real newspaper every morning. Print is not as dead as people think - Alan Simpson

Wow. Can't beat that with a stick. You are my who? Mary Ellen Mark? Robert Avedon? - s t e v e

Alan, my library still loans out VHS tapes. That doesn't mean it isn't a dead medium. Like I said above, predicting the death of print is cliche. But there is a clear, clear roadmap on how it might happen. I happen to think it will, and in my lifetime. - Jason Griffey

It's really hard for me to get jazzed about e-book readers because I can't afford one. I may spend more money on printed books in a year than I would buying an e-book reader, but I don't need to drop a big wad of cash upfront to read printed books, I don't have to worry about proprietary tech, & I don't have to worry about obsolescence. E-book readers are basically Sharper Image luxury goods to me. - josh neff, geek at large

Also, I wish there were a way to favorite comments, because I'm saving that "Lawson is Gibson, Griffey is Stephenson" comment forever. :-) - Jason Griffey

To clarify (I was coping with painter/cat emergencies, and oh yes, working): Steve got it in one. My sense of deja vu is over the "death of print" (now generalized to "death of everything physical") projections, not the "last library revolution"--which, frankly, I must have missed, being too busy trying to help libraries evolve. And I'm surely not saying "Don't read DLK or Griffey." Maybe Steve gets it right with "Wired damage." - Walt Crawford

Followup 2: Jason, when you say CDs are dead, I don't know how to respond, unless "in a state of decline" or "obsolescent" are synonyms for "dead." (Unlike, oh, books, which aren't even in a state of decline. And, Doroth34, I see lots of people reading paper books here in the heart of Silicon Valley.) - Walt Crawford

What I have yet to see--and it surprises me, but I don't have a commute--anyone reading from a Kindle or Sony Reader at a restaurant, in a coffee shop. That one really does surprise me, frankly. And I would make no claims for its significance--it's one obscure data point. - Walt Crawford

Jason, CDs aren't dead yet. True, I almost exclusively buy my music online as MP3s. But if I want to listen to the MP3s in my car (which I generally do), I have to burn them to CDs. - josh neff, geek at large

I think "obsolescent" is a good word. 8tracks and laser discs are dead (but I still have an LD player and a stack of 'em!), but pressed, commercial CDs aren't quite, yet. Distinguishing that from burned disks. Neff, I'm in the same boat. Er, car. & I own an iPod. - Cindi Trainor

Although when all our cars are wifi enabled, then we won't need to burn to CD. Right? As Joshua knows, I'm a music fan too and I buy a lot of music. Most of mine is still in the CD format because I often can't get higher quality MP3 online (at least not on iTunes!). Like the book, I enjoy sitting around the living room listening to a new CD and reading the liner notes and lyrics. No doubt I'm an anomaly. I LOVE this discussion, as it comes up periodically like the imminent retirement boom. - Kenley Neufeld

I downloaded the new U2 but also later bought the $10 CD from Target. The latter is still in its shrink-wrap, because I haven't had time to sit down and listen to it. My burned CD has been played in the car lots, and I've played the mp3s lots as well. - Cindi Trainor

Datapoint: A humanities scholar at MPOW said that uni press print runs are down in the low hundreds now. I saw a blog post the other day (Scholarly Kitchen, maybe?) that concurred. PoD is the only even vaguely economically viable print future here... and PoD is just ebooks in a print disguise, IMO. - D0r0th34

the kindle has got one part right: delivering books directly to the device (in the US, while within 3G cell range). What it needs is to be battle hardened so that I can give it to my 5 year old daughter at the beach to look at her favourite picture book, and it needs to have a battery that will last long enough that I can read for 2 hours a day every day for 5-7 days while I'm camping. - DJF from twhirl

a year and a half ago, I had to buy a new car. I had them install the ipod adapter before I took delivery so I can use the built-in audio controls to play my ipod, and I never worry about static. I listen to the radio in the morning for news, weather, & traffic. and I'm very careful with my CDs: I only ever play them once. - DJF from twhirl

Kenley gives a good point. I buy my music online as MP3s because it's cheaper and easier. But I miss album art & liner notes. I still burn mix CDs, rather than just giving someone a bunch of MP3s, because it includes making art & liner notes. - josh neff, geek at large

Steve, I think I'm closer to Mary Ellen Mark than Richard Avedon. (wait, no I'm not close to either of them, but thank you!) - Cindi Trainor

CD's are dead in the sense that they are no longer the primary way that the media they hold is consumed. They are NOT the default "holder for music" anymore. They are also dead because sales are declining, and it is clear from market trends that they are on the way out. - Jason Griffey

Huh. That doesn't seem "dead" to me. Declining, sure, but not *dead*. Eight-tracks are dead. But even vinyl isn't *dead*, it's just become more niche. I know it's semantic, and I usually hate semantic arguments, but in this case, I think declaring CDs "dead" is a little premature and extreme. - josh neff, geek at large

CDs are the mass-market demonstration that there's a difference between content and distribution medium. Scholarly journals got hit by this first, but CDs affect everybody. - DJF from twhirl

I think books will outlive CD's for one simple reason: with CD's, you still need to play them *on* something, and an MP3 player is more convenient. But a book stands alone. Books will still be the thing for people who want to keep and lend text, because I don't see publishers becoming more lenient on the lending thing anytime soon.... - Kårín Dalzĭel

Karin makes a good point. (Jason: CDs still represent 80%+ of the commercial music market--and that's after several years of iTunes. Obsolescent really isn't obsolete.) (Doroth34: If scholarly monographs are the model for print publishing, very good point. But I flatly disagree that PoD is "ebook in disguise": It's a print book, in an edition of one. But a print book because that's what the consumer prefers...for now.) - Walt Crawford

Overall message: Yes, change happens..but almost always gradually and over very long periods. Unless, of course, the publishers gang up to force the issue (which happened with vinyl, until it re-emerged as a niche medium). And, you know, you can have pretty healthy businesses that aren't #1. (Kenley: It will be a LONG time before "all our cars" have wifi--a lot of us take a decade or more to change cars, particularly in a recession.) - Walt Crawford

Walt: it's created as bits, stored as bits, delivered as bits except for the "last mile." Given that, I'm pretty sure PoD is going to compete almost immediately with direct bit delivery. We can argue about how long that coexistence will last, but IMO PoD will lose, and IMO it will lose PDQ -- I'd be shocked at 20-25 years of PoD for scholarly monographs. - D0r0th34

Stats are *so* interesting. Griffey says iTunes is the largest seller of music in the US. Walt says CDs still represent 80%+ of commercial music market. I guess both could be correct but they certainly claim different things. IMHO it is the 1st that is (far) less meaningful. Used to be WalMart; but largest single seller or sells the most music period? - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

Mark: Both are, as far as I know, correct--there's no reason at all for there to be a conflict between the two. Doroth34: For scholarly monographs, you may be right. Is that 1% of the book market? Similarly, scholarly journals and magazines are both periodicals, but that's about all they have in common. (Come to think of it, a CD is bits stored as bits...as is a DVD.) All interesting to watch, and I only predict that this will all take longer and be less universal...but I could be wrong. - Walt Crawford

Agreed that they are (probably) both correct. My point is that although the 1st (iTunes) is meaningful it is also far less meaningful in this discussion about eventual death of the CD format. I have heard that nugget about iTunes thrown out a few times lately--generally in this regard of change in format--and I really wonder what the people who use it think they are conveying. - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

Now, if these same folks can also point to a rapid growth of iTunes overall market share then they are claiming something to support their view. But even if iTunes has all of the rest of the non-CD market (which they don't), if it stays at this hypothetical < 20% of the market then CDs may well live for quite a while. - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

1%, but an influential 1%. Remember that some of the same ppl who write scholarly monographs also write trade and semi-scholarly nonfiction. And mags are a bad, bad thing to bring up right now, because the carnage in that print market is HORRENDOUS already. - D0r0th34

Both stats are true, but I'm talking about directionality of trends. iTunes is the largest single music retailer, with just about 20% marketshare. The other 80% is non-itunes, but it isn't necessarily physical or CD specifically. See http://arstechnica.com/apple... for more info. Also, CD sales have declines _every single year for most of the last decade_: http://www.techcrunch.com/2007.... - Jason Griffey

That's my point, Jason. I'm not disagreeing with you on either point. But the simple claim you made--& that I've seen others make recently--does not *on its own* support your overall claim. What you wrote just above does a much better job of doing so. But when characters are limited I guess the simple claim takes precedence. Shorthand media requires shorthand evidence. Sorry (not really) for making you spell it out. - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

Wonder if the decline of CD sales is all my fault? I've bought an awful lot of used CDs in the last few years. Bad Mark! - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

I suppose that to me, it does seem prima facie that digital is the endgame of media. Explaining it seems like explaining why water is wet. - Jason Griffey

Interesting analogy. But if I accept your endgame discussion then I think you (& others making the same argument) are being disingenuous. What form will the "coming digital" take? CDs are already digital; no less so than an MP3. And so far they all require some physical device to use these wonderful digital bits. The digital is not coming. It has been here for quite a while. What are the next play back devices, ad inifitum, is the real question. - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

Interesting article today on Mashable about the UK newspaper, The Guardian, opening up its content in the midst of predictions that US papers will be closing down or going digital: http://mashable.com/2009... - Cindi Trainor

Jason: You see an endgame. I see a typical muddle--and a different muddle for each medium. Historically, endgames are rare...including recent history. (Again, "except when a medium is fatally flawed"--and not always then, cf. vinyl's resurgence into a significant business.) If the prima facie argument is that all physical media are fatally flawed, well, there's no sense in arguing: Either you believe that or you don't. I don't. - Walt Crawford

Jason, digital is the endgame of ALL media? I don't think that's self-evident at all. - josh neff, geek at large

I don't think I really know what "digital is the endgame of media" means and it seems open for wildly differing interpretations. (I also don't really understand why water is wet, except in the tautological sense.) - s t e v e

What I mean is that for any media, at this point I see analog distribution ending in my lifetime. - Jason Griffey

Wow. I'd take that bet, Jason. - s t e v e

Jason, you mean you think you'll see the end of printed books in your lifetime? Really? Hell, I want in on this! *slaps $20 down on the table* - josh neff, geek at large

Maybe Jason knows a secret live longer formula. ;-) - Kenley Neufeld

I'm assuming that Jason means "physical" distribution, so that means zero books on paper, zero newspapers, magazines, catalogs, or local coupon clippers in paper, zero cds, dvds, records, or tapes, zero videogames in physical media (that one might happen in my lifetime) etc. I think the Mondo 2000 damage has really set in and my man Jason is angling for the singularity. I just don't think that every person in the USA (let alone the rest of the world) will have a device that works for all media by 2070. - s t e v e

There is so much we can't know when predicting the future, but trends do point us in an interesting direction. My comment about wifi in the cars is not that far-fetched. Walt, I can even put a fancy GPS in my 1986 VW Vanagon. Industries will go down kicking & screaming (look at auto) so to will music, movie, and book publishers. Take digital films...what's the percentage of screens on digital? This is a long and expensive process. - Kenley Neufeld

I think the switch from analog to digital televisions is a good example of something being forced. - Kenley Neufeld

Wow this got busy overnight! The Kindle is a non-starter in my opinion because it is not available outside of the US. There is no DVD download service or Netflix outside the US. Far more people in the developing world own a basic mobile than have access to a computer. That's the thing to watch. I don't believe that we have the tools yet to preserve something digitally for as long as something lasts in print. And that really scares me. PoD is going to be huge though, people want print. Good discussion! - Fiona Bradley

Excellent point, Fiona! Any talk of a digital "book-killer" is going to be completely US-centric. Which means printed books ain't going away anytime soon. Which goes back to my thing that books are a superior technology to any e-device right now. - josh neff, geek at large

Jason, I'd gladly take that bet, but I don't expect to be around to collect, since by all rights you should live a lot longer than I do. Kenley: Sure, you *can* put a GPS in your 23-year-old car--but I'd guess most people don't. As you say, "long and expensive." (OK: I love good SF, and I also think the "singularity" is singularly nonsensical. But it makes for some great reads.) - Walt Crawford

Side comment: Friendfeed is rocking this discussion way better than Twitter. And, I suppose we should link to today's blog entry by Griffey, since we seem to be focused on him. http://www.jasongriffey.net/wp... - Kenley Neufeld

Anyone tell David that we're talking 'bout his stuff on Cindi's FF? - s t e v e

This is one of the most remarkable sidejackings of blog comments I've seen in recent days--and it's really sidejacking both posts, since Jason's in the thick of it. I guess email must be dead. As must lists. Hmm: Wired already wrote off blogs, so DLK and Jason are both out of the loop... - Walt Crawford

Looking around at roughly 350 linear feet of music stored in a 2 BR apt (not mentioning books) and thinking "not goin' away in my lifetime" - and that's after weeding. Not gonna happen till we boomers are gone. - Candy Schwartz

How many more are you planning to buy, Candy? ;) - D0r0th34

Not just boomers, Candy - I worked in a news/music library until four years ago, and we only in 2004 stopped buying cassettes. They were even then still the main form of music distribution in parts of India, Sri Lanka and Brazil. Now it's all dodgy CD-Rs! But vinyl still lives, and goodness knows I hate moving all 20 boxes of it when we move, but we'll never be all digitial in our house. - Fiona Bradley

We probably buy an average of 5 CDs a month, and 25-30 or so in Jan and August when we go to folk festivals in the UK. Hearing you on the pain of moving them all Fiona. But I would never not. - Candy Schwartz

Details of Griffey-lawson-neff bet to be discussed. I'll take the 2070 bet with some clarification. More later. - Jason Griffey

Walt, ironically, re: your last comment, a study just got published this week (or so) saying that social networking sites had, in fact, just surpassed email in percentage of online activity. - Louise Alcorn

And I know we've touched on this a bit, but from a public library perspective, whenever I hear that such-and-such is "on the way out", I always have to start my planning timeclock. By which I mean the rather long time delay *after* something's "died" popularly, but is still in use by patrons, and thus needs to be supported. We've now cut off patrons from new VHS and audiobook cassette tapes, but we still have many of both that circulate. We have acknowledged, however, that they are "done" in the sense of new content. The part of the "new" continuum that always interests me, and worries me as a public service provider, is how fast disparate platforms converge to a standard (usually not the best one). So would I take the Griffey/Lawson/Neff bet? I might put down some cash, but I'd want a sideline bet on how long before public libraries are "allowed" to give up X format. - Louise Alcorn

Louise, that's the thing I think is most interesting about all of these debates -- not whether one side is gonna win the bet or not, but what we all need to do as planning activities for *any* of the possible endings to the debate. Because like it or not, the future will be different from today, maybe dramatically, maybe slightly, but still different. And we have to plan for those eventualities. Which means considering them. And talking about them. Regardless of who "wins". - Jenica

Agreed, Jenica, that discussing is more important than winning (though I look forward to going to a newsstand in 2070 to buy a newspaper which I will throw at Jason, laugh, and then keel over dead before he can give me my worthless $10 or whatever we bet on all this). I think talking makes us more ready for anything, though I question how much actual planning we can do based on this. (That's where the headache comes in for me.) - s t e v e

Am sorely tempted to set up a prediction on longbets.com for this. The stakes are a bit higher than were discussed, though. Will think on it. - Jason Griffey from twhirl

I am now tempted to try and make money off Vint Cerf: http://www.longbets.org/179 - s t e v e

How many of your libraries still have a microcard reader? We still have one; I walk by it every day. I didn't even know what the hell it was until December, when I had to figure out whether I needed to unplug it over the break or not (I didn't). No idea where to find our microcard holdings either. Never seen any, anywhere I've worked. I started out in a Preservation dept, so these sorts of discussions always fascinate me. thanks all! - Cindi Trainor

I suspect that a microcard reader could be replaced by a good digital camera or flatbed scanner. - DJF from twhirl

Cindi, my first full-time library job (in 2003) was in the microtext department of my library. From day one I knew its time was coming. Maybe that's why I'm so tech focused now. :) - lauren pressley

Going way back to the e-book discussion on this thread -- I'm almost finished reading my first e-book (Adventures of Sherlock Holmes) using an iPod Touch but broke down 1/2 way thru and bought the paper Penguin edition. - Librarienne

Two reasons: 1) I have no page numbers to cite in the e-book edition and 2) I get an introduction, timeline, biography and footnotes in the paper edition. E-Books are still too sloppy (from what I've seen on Feedbooks and Munseys) to come close to replacing paper. I think even non-librarian readers will find that to be true in many cases. - Librarienne

Where are you going to cite Sherlock Holmes? Man, you are WAY more ambitious than me. ;) I think citing page numbers anymore is kind of pointless- esp in a freely available ebook edition. You can always do a search. I really hated it when teachers would make me count paragraphs to cite a webpage- on one memorable occasion, the site had NO subheadings, so I had to count something like 80 paragraphs down. ugh. - Kårín Dalzĭel

Interesting! When I get halfway through a book on my iPhone, I know I'm going to finish it on the device, and I wistfully peek at the Kindle website thinking it would be so much nicer to do the reading on a larger screen. :) - lauren pressley

When I read (paper) books, my bookmark is a scrap of paper that I use to jot down favorite quotes or my own reactions to whatever I'm reading. Using Stanza on the Touch, I haven't found any good way to jot down anything, much less give myself an indication of where I found it. Down the road, would such scraps be in something like Evernote? Maybe. But I haven't found a good way to use those tools yet, I guess. - Librarienne

You know, I really liked the way Microsoft Reader works on my old PDA- I could take notes in the book, and then get a list of those notes later with references back to where I took them. Wish Stanza would do that. As it is, I just create a bookmark and title it something memorable- I sometimes switch over to the notes app to jot down something if I need more space and refer to the bookmark. Not elegant at all. - Kårín Dalzĭel

Plus, despite what everyone says, I still find typing on the iphone keyboard to be an exercise in frustration. - Kårín Dalzĭel

When my hubby read _Little brother_ on our iPod, he complained constantly about not knowing how far along he was. Maybe it was user error, but I felt the same way and abandoned after a couple of chapters. Waiting for Amazon to get MPOW's tax-exempt ducks in a row so we can order our kindles. Little Brother and Anathem are my first requests! - Cindi Trainor

I definitely think that feeling at sea vis-a-vis text length is an important reason for the "we can't read long stuff on screen" thing that everybody is currently complaining about. Back in the day, the RocketBook at least (and I think the SoftBook too) had visual "where you are/how much is left" indicators. It feels like running heads to me. We're still waiting for the right convention. - D0r0th34

Yes, the "at sea" problem is a real one. Even the people I know with Kindles (that love them) complain about this. The Stanza reader does have a bar that shows how far you've gone through the book, the Kindle app for the iPhone does, too. It's just weird to have to tap the screen to get that metadata about your reading. Still looking for the "right" answer to this, too. - lauren pressley

Karin, it is NOT just you! I despise typing on my Touch which is the primary reason I use it for so little. Getting somewhat used to reading on it now that I've read a few books so it is all about the crappy text input interface. - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

Mark - I have come to the conclusion that the touch is all about content consumption and not at all about creation. If it was, they'd allow the blue tooth to use a friggin' keyboard (something my 3.5 year old Windows Mobile based PDA can do) - Kårín Dalzĭel

Very good point, Karin! I am SO glad that I got mine for free. [Well, with $2000+ of laptop purchase.] - Mar₭ Liŋdŋer

Glad I got mine free too. :) (it's my mom's old one) I don't think I'd buy one for myself- It's cool and all, but the battery life isn't great after a year or so (and, of course, is not user replaceable) and is missing some really key features. Plus it's not really that great for listening to music. Ah well. It does make a pretty decent ebook/rss reader :) - Kårín Dalzĭel

Back to the conversation - Until we figure out the lending thing, I just don't think ebook adoption will get that high. Even iTunes lets you burn copies of CDs so you can loan/give them out, but there is NO way to loan a proprietary ebook. Which is really to the detriment of publishers.... - Kårín Dalzĭel

Mostly Richard Stallman sounds like a bit of a crank nowadays, but his essay of a few years ago about the perils of ebooks seems to be coming true, especially the risks of DRM on ebooks. - DJF

I think there are some notable book markets that are going to slow down any move toward a scene where print book publishing is bespoke service. As noted earlier by Fiona Bradley, markets outside the US (especially in developing countries) may be much slower in making this move. Here in the US, I think it will take longer for children's books to make the ebook move than for adult trade titles. Educational publishing for k-12 is also likely to be slower, as public schools will not quickly adopt technology... - Stephen Francoeur

...that it can ill-afford right now. - Stephen Francoeur

Stephen - good point about children's books! Art books would be another thing that just don't translate to digital very easily, and getting digital rights to artwork is MUCH harder than getting book rights. - Kårín Dalzĭel

Not that it matters much, but sociologically, I wonder why all of the comments are here at Cindi's Delicious tag, instead of here (http://friendfeed.com/e...) at the base of David's original blog post. I think I know why (Walt and Steve started the conversation chain), but I would like to know what you think... - joe is...

I think a lot of it has to do with luck - people generally log in and scan the first, maybe 2nd page. So Cindi's delicious post may have just showed up at a better time. That's just a guess, though. Cindi's post showed up int he morning, when more people seem to check. - Kårín Dalzĭel

Joe's observation highlights the disintegration of blogging in general. Though he suggested the conversation may be better located on David's Friendfeed, I say in days gone by it would have happened on David's actual blog where he posted the story originally (and there are a handful of comments there too). Sidenote: this thread still trails yesterday's big conversation on the Watchmen's blue penis (http://friendfeed.com/e...) - Kenley Neufeld

I don't think this conversation could have happened in quite this way in blog comments, as there's more pressure to stay on topic, and there's more of a sense of it being the blogger's space. This is on Cindi's FF, but FF is less personal space. As to why it didn't happen on someone else's FF, I guess it's because this is where Walt decided to comment and Cindi and I chimed in pretty quick. - s t e v e

I am not at all surprised by how interesting this has been/is being, but I love how civilized it is, having seen some very uncivilized conversations on similar topic(s) live and in blog comments. FF in some ways is more personal than blogs, as you are more conscious of your interaction within your group of friends. - Candy Schwartz

Kenley: I can nearly guarantee there would never have been 102 comments on DLK's post--maybe a dozen, maybe 20 at most. (It's nearly unheard of for a liblog post to get more than 20-30 comments.) That's partly the "bias toward approval" phenomenon (most post comments are friendly), partly that FF really is easier. It's also the attenuation of conversation, as has been previously noted--and a mixed blessing. Joe: What Steve and Karin said. - Walt Crawford

I don't get how anyone can say this is proof blogs are dead. After all, we are talking about a *blog post*. The places where we have the conversation about the blog post is changing, but the blog is still the place we put those long form thoughts to start the conversations in the first place. - Kårín Dalzĭel

As I have discovered many, many times, FF and Twitter are NOT the place for long form thinking out loud. :) the blog is still about the only place for that... - Kårín Dalzĭel

Karin, I don't see anyone here saying this shows blogs are dead. Kenley said that they are "disintegrating," which I take to mean fragmenting into many different spaces. The monologue happens in the blog, the dialog over here (sometimes). - s t e v e

I'm fascinated by the disintegration of blog comments (and didn't take Karin's comments as a response to me, but rather the //media's// idea that blogging is dead which it obviously is not). But, with FF, Facebook, Twitter, Disqus, and Intense Debate we see discussion moving far and wide. Personally, I like Disqus for my blogs because I can track and manage //blog// comments in one place but Friendfeed definitely takes the cake at the moment. Thank you all for this great discussion (and distraction). - Kenley Neufeld

As I said in another thread, my only wish would be that FF would give me a way to embed this discussion back into my blog so that I could gather it all in one place for archival. - Jason Griffey from twhirl

Sorry, I misread, but I wasn't responding only to this thread. I keep reading other places about how blogs are on their way out, but I think this thread shows that isn't so. - Kårín Dalzĭel

Also- Jason - YES! Me too. If you ever find a way, let us know. It's hard, with how fragmented it is, though. This post started with DLK's post, but it is as much about yours. - Kårín Dalzĭel

Jason: if you use self-hosted WordPress for your blog, there's a plug-in that will pull your friendfeed comments into the related blog post. - cecily

Cecily -- where's the plugin? could use :) - Rachel Singer Gordon

Really? Had NOT seen that. Will investigate. - Jason Griffey from twhirl

The previously mentioned DISQUS will bring in Friendfeed conversations to your blog. I have it integrated with my blogs. - Kenley Neufeld

Yeah, but as I mentioned elsewhere, the fun thing is that this discussion is in Cindi's FF, based on a link to David's blog. Will disqus help Jason with that? - s t e v e

Here's more on DISQUS/FF integration: http://blog.disqus.net/2009... ; Also, a WP plugin for FF, but operates in a different manner than the DISQUS tool: http://wordpress.org/extend.... Finally, here is an example of how it looks in my blog: http://kenleyneufeld.com/2008... (scroll to bottom of comments). - Kenley Neufeld

the only non-librarian I've ever seen reading an e-book device was roughly a year ago on the bus. It was a Rocket Reader/REB1100, a device which is now roughly 8 years old. I suppose others I've seen with iPods/iPhones could have been reading books, but there's no way to tell. And the commuters I see with books far outnumber those peering at any sort of screen. - Chad Haefele

posted that last comment before I meant to... silly Friendfeed and its lack of linebreaks! Anyway... I'm on the side that print books are in no danger whatsoever. It doesn't hurt to plan & have ideas for an occasion where I'm wrong though. But as of now I don't see any killer app type device to handle reading e-content away from a computer screen. The Kindle comes closest, and de-coupling materials acquisition from a PC was smart, but price & other roadblocks still remain. - Chad Haefele

Cindi - bad news - Little Brother is not available for the Kindle. In fact, the last 2 books I needed to read were not available for the Kindle, and I had to purchase the paper. While I love the Kindle, it is a fairly limited approach to e-books at present. It feels like a side story in the evolution of e-books, in my opinion. - Ruth Solie

That's ridiculous. Of course Little Brother is available for the Kindle, it's just _not available for purchase on the Kindle_. It's available in a half-dozen ways, including Mobipocket, which works natively on the Kindle, on the Litte Brother website: http://craphound.com/littleb... - Jason Griffey

Rachel: Plugin is here: http://wordpress.org/extend... - cecily

Words, words, words. I want ACTION! Let's stop being at the mercy of content providers and closed distributions channels. - Michael Porter

PS- I loved reading all these words, and you know it! ;) - Michael Porter