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Deborah Micek › Likes
The Crush It Wine and Beer Tasting Episode #724 - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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Deborah Micek liked this
i dunno Gary... you may be just about the most UNanimated dude on video ever -- HAAA! j/k - i figure u get sarcasm :) Have fun having icecream after your surgery. See u in NYC next month!
- Deborah Micek
Ashton Kutcher first with 1 Million followers on Twitter - http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_nex...
Marcus Schroefel and Deborah Micek liked this
Not yet, but he is at 755k and growing. He follows 60 people.
- Louis Gray
Now over 2.5M followers and growing. Ashton does all his own tweets, no ghost writers.
- Don Dodge
In case the fail whale comes tomorrow during Oprah show, click this link and participate live:
Alex Gibbons, John E. Bredehoft, Kol Tregaskes and 31 other people liked this
http://beta.friendfeed.com/scoblei... The live link. We'll keep this just in case Oprah takes Twitter down.
- Robert Scoble
thanks! $100 bucks says fail whale is a definite!
- Susan Beebe
I'm betting it will go down.
- Roberto Bonini
Dont like Oprah but this is kinda cool :)
- Per
is there any place that us foreigners can watch it live?
- Orli Yakuel
It's gonna be a make-or-break day for Twitter.
- Ron S. Doyle
I can imagine the whole crowd at the studio live tweeting Oprah in the future =D That would be absolutely crazy. Sorry, I meant ridiculous =P
- | Balu |
Cool - basically creating your own namespace just for this event, eh? Ah, for the days when the backchannel at conferences was on IRC and everyone was in the same "room", so to speak.
- Shane Curcuru
Well considering I have been getting Twitter "over capacity" messages on a regular basis since march madness started. I am afraid. Very afraid.
- Jame Ervin
Shane: friendfeed will be the defacto backchannel place from now on. The live comments at http://beta.friendfeed.com rock.
- Robert Scoble
What's the Vegas odds on Twitter dropping like a rock during Oprah's show?
- Chris Charabaruk
Odds? I wouldn't bet against it!
- Karma Martell
@Matthew I still login. Most desktop clients suck.
- TheHenry
I still find Tweetdeck to big (I don't have enough screen real estate) but I may have to switch now that I'm following @scobleizer - phew! Twhirl is my current client; nice and smooth and enough features to get by. Twitter website is only for ensuring your profile hasn't been hacked; nothing else.
- Shane Curcuru
Hmmm... Twitter's still up. I suspect Robert negotiated a secret deal last night to boost Twitter's capacity with temporary Rackspace cloud servers - a win-win all around. Vaguely disappointed that the big O's first tweet WAS ALL SHOUTING.
- Shane Curcuru
thanks for the tip Robert. I'll pass.
- Vicarbott
Robert, since you seem to know a lot of people, I'd like to give a tip. I'm sure you've heard it before, but I think this was all a complete publicity stunt by Twitter using @aplusk, @cnnbrk, and @oprah to bring more people. When I can't unfollow @aplusk but I can unfollow anyone else just fine, something is up. I've just deleted my twitter account.
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
It totally was a publicity stunt on the part of Twitter. You could have blocked all those people though Mike. The unfollow button didn't work, but the block sure did.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
@Matthwe yeah probably :P
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
@Rob N. yeah but with all the crap that's been going on lately with Twitter coupled with the fact that I hardly use it now anyways, it was the tipping point.
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
Mike: Right there with ya. If I didn't have the right tools to filter out the noise I would cancel as well. I believe this is the tipping point for the whole of Twitter, and will turn it into a simple medium for people to broadcast, and will deaden the quantity and quality of interpersonal exchange. So...here we are at FriendFeed :)
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
So much for trying to get peeps to understand that Twitter is more than just a popularity contest. It is my understanding that Twitter temporarily disabled the unfollow button on Kutcher's account to keep people from trying to game the system by following and unfollowing to try and be his 1millionth follower.
- Sharon McPherson
I don't necessarily agree with the assumption that Twitter can no longer be depended on as a "tool" Mathew. No matter how many millions flock to Twitter because of it's "new found fame", we still have the option of choosing who we follow and who follows us.
- Sharon McPherson
There are 10 kinds of people: those who view Twitter as a tool, and those who view it as the social network they must must must be a part of. Reminds me of intertwingly's "It's just data". It's just a tool. It's all about what you choose to do with it. Like ridiculing Oprah's technology advisers for allowing her to SHOUT OUT ALL OF HER FIRST TWEET.
- Shane Curcuru
As of 1:20 pm Pacific time (4:20 pm Eastern) Twitter is up. This is a good stress test for @ev and company.
- John E. Bredehoft
I'm choosing to use FF as a tool to make fun of her and her advisors for making her second tweet about ordering lunch LOL!
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
You're all so mean! Twitter is perfect for Oprah viewers, because they've never had a thought needing more than ... well, it's sure not 140 characters, I bet.
- Stan Scott
Stan, with all due respect to Robert, the unleashing of the Oprah followers on a service is a much more powerful stress test than even the unleashing of the Robert Scoble followers on a service. I'm not sure that Twitter would share it, but it would be fascinating to see the information about Twitter sign-ups and usage over the next few days.
- John E. Bredehoft
I don't know. All of this freaking out over who's on twitter and why seems like saying "Duuuuude, Nirvana totally sold out." I don't really care who is on twitter and why. I thought "we" wanted people to have access to information and communication- even if they don't know all of the etiquette yet. I don't want FF to be the record store where the everyone is too cool.
- metalerik
+1 Stan....heheh
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Excel-Lookalike Twitter Client Helps You Goof Off At Work - http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-...
Daniel Rowley, Marco(aureliusmaximus), Zee. and 23 other people liked this
"The premise behind Spreadtweet is simple: The interface looks just like a Excel spreadsheet, and the casual passer-by will probably be fooled into thinking it's real, actual work. Even the "dock" icon is a dead ringer for Microsoft's (MSFT) Excel icon."
- Jonathan Kong
from Bookmarklet
Kewl! :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
There's a web based version as well : ) http://spreadtweets.elliottkember.com/
- LouCypher
Totally Hilarious!
- Twittergator
oh that is PERFECT for my worker-bee friend's TwitAddiction! THANKS!
- Deborah Micek
Watch Google over next hour. Reports are coming in that their numbers are very high and great news. - http://www.google.com/finance...
Frode Stenstrøm, TiTi, Brad Coy and 28 other people liked this
End of recession for Silicon Valley? We'll find out over next few minutes I'm hearing. Good numbers are expected.
- Robert Scoble
from Bookmarklet
Does Google determine the recession there?
- Jesse Stay
Results are here: http://investor.google.com/release...
- Jérôme
Jesse: a lot of businesses here rely on advertising. So, in part, yes. And as Google goes so does the valley. They have a huge impact here on a raft of things.
- Robert Scoble
Live conference call: http://google.client.shareholder.com/Visitor... (start at 1:30 PM PT / 4:30 PM ET). Lounge music right now :)
- Jérôme
TechCrunch reports not good: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
- Robert Scoble
WARNING: Google's about to tank (is that what you saying, what goes up suddenly .. will pop?)
- Mr K
After hours: GOOG +5% at 408.50 (+30% over 3 months)
- Jérôme
The TC article sounded pretty good, actually. Could have come out sounding a lot worse.
- Chris Charabaruk
ZDNet: earnings better than expected: http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL...
- Robert Scoble
OK 3% decrease from 4Q 08 6% inc from Q1 08 so what does that translate to? Doesn't sound like a hallelujah party to me
- Karma Martell
Karma: its a lot better than analysts were expecting.
- Robert Scoble
Stock is up $19 in afterhours trading.
- Robert Scoble
Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article...
- Robert Scoble
Is Google all of SIlicon Valley?
- Francine Hardaway
Francine: no, but Google is a huge bellweather of how all these advertising-focused businesses might do.
- Robert Scoble
I'm listening to the earning call right now to see what they say. I also have my screens all aimed at Google, including a secret news tool that is showing me news reports in near real time.
- Robert Scoble
The conference call just started: http://google.client.shareholder.com/Visitor...
- Jérôme
Can we guess that tool Robert?
- Amit Nangare
"a secret news tool that is showing me news reports in near real time" - great, a "secret tool". Someone gave you access to it?
- Meryn Stol
Meryn: yes. More soon on that.
- Robert Scoble
Friendfeed with filters, guys!
- Jérôme
Nope, what I'm using is not friendfeed. I have friendfeed filters running too, though.
- Robert Scoble
secret news tool = TV? Radio? (grinning)
- Mike Lipscomb
Movies coming to YouTube? http://www.streetinsider.com/Corpora...
- Robert Scoble
StockTwits bragging: http://www.stocktwits.com/u...
- Robert Scoble
Robert has a prototype direct neural interface. Very hush hush. It plugs into the back of his skull and force-feeds information directly into the neurons faster than his eyes would be able to read it. How do you think he manages to follow tens of thousands of people?
- DGentry
Google earning call. We're still in "uncharted territory" in terms of economy.
- Robert Scoble
Scobleizer=Neo? Je
- scott
Eric Schmidt: advertisers are lowering their bids. "We think Google is now well placed for the recovery."
- Robert Scoble
With so much cash in the bank, they are absolutely well positioned for the recovery. They can buy assets at recession prices.
- DGentry
Scoble=/=Neo; SM is Teh Matrix?
- scott
BBC: Google reports stronger profits: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2...
- Robert Scoble
after hours up big
- Andy Fox
Stronger profit? I think it's only because of the AOL effect on last quarter results.
- Jérôme
Eric talks about mobile. Saying people are searching a lot more because Google made the experience much better.
- Robert Scoble
Nice chart on CNET: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10...
- Robert Scoble
Robert you're teasing us with all this real-time news, aren't you?
- Jesse Stay
Charts are from: http://investor.google.com/pdf...
- Jérôme
"Good quarter for Google," Schmidt says.
- Robert Scoble
Jesse: yes. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Real time rocks for these kinds of things. Got audio of the call playing. Friendfeed playing. Secret news tool playing.
- Robert Scoble
Wonder how much Google Apps subs generate..
- Jérôme
Business Insider, Henry Blodget says Google had a solid Q1 and Amazing Cash Flow: http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-b...
- Robert Scoble
With cash only, they could acquire both Facebook and Twitter (if they were on sale)
- Jérôme
i call shotgun! does that work for getting the dni?
- metalerik
WSJ live blogging: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits...
- Jérôme
Patrick: Google called a little under a year ago and helped us reduce our costs for ads by half. After that we had less than a 10% decrease / month in leads for 2008. The last few weeks of this year were abnormally slow, but we are on track to meet or beat last year.
- Chip Ramsey
Do they have to say how much they plan to dedicate to Google Venture?
- Jérôme
What am I supposed to be watching for?
- Tim McDougall
from feedalizr
Britni Spiers misspelling variations.. we'll still hear this in 2043 :)
- Jérôme
Search for unemployment has more than doubled
- Jérôme
Try Hide.
- JCunwired
Very interesting search queries stats: "Google searches on foreclosures are up 42% year-over-year. [Bankruptcy] is up 53%, while “unemployment” has more than doubled. There are also increases in education, self-help, spirituality, alcohol and gambling."
- Jérôme
stock has retreated back down to $395 now
- Robert Kwok
I suspect google is making moves in mobile not because they made mobile search better, but because Apple (webkit) and RIM made browsers better so people are using their desktop habits on the phone.
- felix
Aaron: go to the old UI and hide there.
- Robert Scoble
Felix: maybe they also contributed to that with Android ("more than 8% of mobile browsing is done through Android, second only to Apple’s iPhone").
- Jérôme
After Hours: -2.75 (-0.71%)
- Jérôme
I find that 8% of mobile browsing happening on Android... difficult to swallow. Although, who knows. I guess not me. :)
- felix
What's the source of those mobile browsing stats? Google itself?
- Erik Holten
Erik, yes (live blogged by WSJ at http://blogs.wsj.com/digits...)
- Jérôme
"Global warming" has been discredited, so now that phrase has been dropped in favor of "climate change." As if the globe has ever had a stable climate. I wish we could have a rational debate based on sound argument instead of injecting politics, fear and junk science.
Ted Bradford II, Meryn Stol, Casey and 31 other people liked this
No, global warming hasn't been discredited. It's been turned in to a joke by those who don't understand the scientific evidence surrounding it. People are looking at an down tick in temperatures in some areas as evidence. That's like pointing to a dead cat bounce on the stock markets and saying "recession is over!" They changed the phrase to regain control of the conversation based on science instead of based on politics.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
I'm not convinced, Alex. I heard tons of people saying that there is scientific consensus that global warming exists. It's not true. Plus, I'm also old enough to remember all the hysteria in the 70s that the world was getting colder and we were all going to freeze to death. I don't buy any of this anymore. I don't believe either side.
- Dawn
Dawn, in the 70s there was hysteria but not scientific consensus. These talking points have all been churned over and dealt with. Unfortunately, we won't know for sure for years who's right on this issue and by then it will be too late to act.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
there is a consensus. the people denying global warming do it for political reasons.
- Alejandro
Yah, no consensus at all: http://www.futurepundit.com/archive...
- Todd Hoff
Head of Greenpeace says some provocative things about global warming here: http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- Robert Scoble
Dawn: this is why I blocked you a long time ago, you just take the stupidest positions sometimes. The evidence is very clear there's global warming.
- Robert Scoble
Please don't label me denier - I'm not. That said, consensus has nothing to do with scientific method. There is plenty of evidence for increased CO2 levels, and warming, but it's not clear that we have a valid model for making predictions - particularly not the kind that the IPCC is providing to governments. see: http://www.amazon.com/Vanishi... for one view on this.
- Robin Barooah
Strawman. The scientific method requires repeatable independently observable experiments. There's obviously only one climate, one earth, and a lack of rigorous data. So the lack of scientific method spin I've been reading is crazy. What scientists are giving is their opinion based on the evidence before them. To say that consensus has no weight in forming an opinion can only mean one thing.
- Todd Hoff
Actually it's not a strawman. Scientists forming an opinion about a group of trends is not the same as scientists making a scientific discovery. As I say - I'm not a denier. The issue is not about whether or not scientists agree there is a trend - it's that we don't yet have a model that is able to predict even the current changes, nor one that will tell us the consequences of different courses of action.
- Robin Barooah
And as far as politics go - a major problem for scientists is that they are perceived by many as not being independent of it. They shouldn't need to change the phrase - they should be able to present progressively clearer and more comprehensible models. If there is consensus that we have an understanding of the mechanism rather than just agreeing there's a trend, why is there no website with a clear exhibit and exposition of the model, explanations, predictions and actual tracking data?
- Robin Barooah
And Robert, even though I don't know you other than through FriendFeed, I have to say that I think it's pretty bad form to simply dismiss dawn's position as "Stupid" when she's asking for rational debate. If you're so confident about it wouldn't it have been more helpful to point her at a convincing resource?
- Robin Barooah
Robin: there is no rational debate on this one. Look at the ice shelf breaking free. The temperature is going up and it's something we have to worry about. There's no debating that among rational people. Can we debate the causes? Absolutely. Can we debate the cures? Absolutely. But the science is in. It's demonstrable. http://beta.friendfeed.com/silas21...
- Robert Scoble
FriendFeed needs 'dislike'.
- Mike Hussein Cohen
Robert: There may not be any debate on the observations about what is happening now - I certainly don't deny them. But observations alone aren't science and they don't tell us what we should do, nor do they tell us what will happen in the future. If we don't actually know either the causes nor the consequences of potential cures, then we don't actually have any science. I think this is what leads people like Dawn to ask these questions.
- Robin Barooah
And simply polarizing it into "stupid", "no rational debate", and categorizing people as deniers is just not constructive. Incidentally the IPCC models have under-predicted warming in general. w
- Robin Barooah
Robin: that's bull. Dawn didn't ask those questions. She didn't admit that our ice on our polar caps is melting at an "alarming" rate. She didn't look into the science, which has been quoted and linked to here. Neither have you. She posted a stupid statement saying that "global warming" has been discredited without a single link demonstrating that that is in fact true, which it is not. So, posting stupid statements WILL get pointed out as being stupid. Sorry for being harsh, but this is lame debate.
- Robert Scoble
Robin: if you say that water is not wet you are stupid. Sorry. And trying to be nice about it won't help anyone.
- Robert Scoble
With all due respect Robert, I actually have looked into the science . Not only that, but I posted a link that leads to a book written by scientist who has clearly thought through a position that, while far from denying that there is warming - he calls it heating, has strong explanations as to why the IPCC 'consensus' is neither accurate nor scientific perhaps that will help Dawn. My position actually bridges the two perspectives - i.e. there is warming, but the science isn't good yet.
- Robin Barooah
I don't see how name calling helped anyone either. I don't see trying to understand where they are coming from and building a bridge from there to where you are as 'being nice'. But I guess I'm wasting my time now because this conversation is 'lame'.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: if someone says something stupid like "water is not wet" I think they deserve being called names. Sorry. I don't put up with stupidity. You want to fill my screen with stupidity I will call you names. Saying that Global Warming has been discredited is stupid.
- Robert Scoble
Antarctica is breaking up. Plants and animals worldwide are being adversely affected by habitat changes. Weather patterns are changing radically. There is scientific evidence for all of these. So what are we REALLY arguing about?
- Stan Scott
Stan: the world is flat. Haven't you heard? Sigh.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: moving along a little from the original point - you don't subscribe to Dawn - clearly somebody you do follow must have interacted to show you her post - she didn't 'fill your screen' with anything. You know better than that - you could have hit 'hide' or block. So this is the new standard of community on FriendFeed? We will namecall whoever we think is stupid because they 'deserve' it even if we don't subscribe to them? Come on.
- Robin Barooah
We had a snowstorm yesterday in Mississauga, Canada.. the last snowstorm of the year happens around March 25th.. It was snowing all day, but nothing stuck around. Weathers changing. That's not what's being argued anymore. What should be up for debate is what we should be doing about it. I don't care if you don't believe in global warming. But why take the risk? Why not fix a future problem? Isn't not looking ahead stupidity itself?
- Angelo Rodrigues
+1 Angelo - and my question is - do we have a model that tells us how to fix the problem? If so - where?
- Robin Barooah
Robin: I do subscribe to Dawn now. I started following her again a few weeks ago.
- Robert Scoble
Does the world have a model for dealing with economic collapse? Nope, we all meet and try and figure it all out. Because, generally speaking of course, the first time things happen, it's hard to already have a plan in place.
- Angelo Rodrigues
You've already agreed that it's potentially a problem in the future. If it's something that hasn't happened yet, a model is something we need to work towards. But only after we have a solution that works. I can make all the models in the world, but unless I make the wheels round, my car isn't going anywhere.
- Angelo Rodrigues
Robert - fair enough - I misunderstood when you said you had unsubscribed from her before as implying that you were still unsubscribed. I still stand by my point about namecalling and the standard of debate - it would get ugly fast if we all did that. I guess it frustrates me because whilst I could block or hide you to avoid seeing that aspect, I'd prefer not to because you bring interesting information my way. I guess I sadly have to accept that tradeoff.
- Robin Barooah
Robin if we allow stupid statements to stand we're all worse off. I'm usually nice, but not when I see stupidity.
- Robert Scoble
Robin, it is a strawman. By it's nature this a problem where the scientific method can't apply. There are no repeatable independently verifiable experiments that can be run. Saying "scientific method" is simply diversionary. And when you are evaluating the probability of an event the weight of expert consensus figures in heavily in selecting probabilities. To say something can't be certain so it has 0 probability is irrational.
- Todd Hoff
Robert: That's just it - I think name-calling simply splits the community, and means that those so called - 'stupid' statements remain standing for the people who held them - i.e. nobody's mind gets changed. A lot of 'stupid' statements contain partial truth. And then of course there's the question of how someone arrived at their view - there may be a good reason why it exists even if it's false. Good in the sense that it benefits us to understand how they reached it. Namecalling closes us off from this.
- Robin Barooah
Robert: However, for some reason I am no longer bothered by you doing it now that you've explained your position.
- Robin Barooah
Angelo: (remember I'm not a denier!) - so the problem is that we don't know how fast things are changing, and we don't know what the results of interventions will be - for example some models indicate that pollution may be working against global warming by dimming the amount of sunlight that hits the ground - so eliminating that pollution could increase warming. How would you propose we go about finding a solution?
- Robin Barooah
Robert, if I'm stupid, then I'm in good company because there are tens of thousands of scientists who don't believe in global warming. For example, as it says here http://tinyurl.com/c7fgnx: "While the majority of lawmakers seem to tend to agree with Mr. Gore, 30,000 scientists – including 9,000 Ph.D. holders – have lined up with the founder of the Weather Channel, John Coleman – so...
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- Dawn
Robin: Thanks for trying.
- Dawn
Dawn: got it. The ice is melting because the temperature is going down. Stupid me, I just can't see the obvious.
- Robert Scoble
Todd: If I were saying that because we don't have a good scientific model, we should ignore the evidence, then I would agree with you. However I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we should stop claiming that we have a good scientific model, and instead admit that scientists are observing a dangerous trend but aren't yet able to predict where it's going nor what to do about it. I don't deny that it may be the most pressing problem of our time.
- Robin Barooah
Dawn: the EU just called you stupid: http://uk.reuters.com/article...
- Robert Scoble
"Nine of 11 experts, who were among authors of the final summary by the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in 2007 (IPCC), also said the evidence that mankind was to blame for climate change had grown stronger in the past two years."
- Robert Scoble
And once upon a time everyone thought the earth was flat. It didn't make them right and it didn't make people who argued against the evidence any less stupid. Same with people who tried to argue against the harmful effects of tobacco use.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Thanks for that report - it actually supports what I said to Angelo just now about reducing pollution increasing warming, and my earlier comment that the IPCC was under-predicting - have I established that I'm following the science now? But what about the scientists who disagree with Gore's evidence - they may all be stupid - but may have another part of the puzzle.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: how do you argue with polar ice caps that are melting? That's not up for discussion. You can witness it with your own eyes. Ice doesn't melt if things are getting colder.
- Robert Scoble
Robin: Thank you for taking a stand against Robert on behalf of the community. I too believe strength is diversity in all forms.
- Jason Nelson
Jason: are you speaking up for stupidity in the guise of being for diversity? Wow.
- Robert Scoble
Scoble==Bush.
- Jason Nelson
Jason: I hated Bush. He said some of the stupidest things any president of ours has ever said.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: I'm not arguing with that - nor am I denying that there is warming. What I'm saying is that the scientists who are part of the consensus do not have a good predictive model (otherwise known as science) - so they don't know how to solve the problem, and that the scientists who disagree may well have something constructive to add to our understanding.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: you are changing the discussion, though. What Dawn said to start this was "Global warming has been discredited." That is stupid. If we want to talk about something else, we should start another thread.
- Robert Scoble
I would refer all arguments about "strength is diversity in all forms" to this: http://www.randi.org/site...
- Justin Yost
Robert: It's not about being stupid or not--it's your behavior.
- Jason Nelson
Robert: you have obviously been well informed by the consensus view - as dawn has been informed by the dissenters. Warming has clearly been discredited for her. Don't you find it interesting to know how that came about? If the consensus scientists didn't just agree about warming existing but had a strong model as well, I wouldn't be paying much attention - but until they do, I'd rather not exclude alternative viewpoints - even if they are partially wrong.
- Robin Barooah
Jason: my behavior is that I won't put up with obvious stupidity. That's right. And I will call it out. That's right. THAT is HOW you build a strong community. If you allow all stupidity to stand THAT is how you get a crappy community. Jason: I guess you think I should be "nice" to spammers, right? For diversity's sake? How about other undesirable behavior? After all, if we really want to be diverse and "nice" we should allow racists, sexists, homophobes, jerks, etc to go unchallenged. Just to be "nice?"
- Robert Scoble
Robert: I'm not changing the subject. There is a minority view and a majority view here. The majority view doesn't yet have answers for us. The majority could agree on the diagnosis but give us a suicidal prescription, while the minority may be wrong about the diagnosis but save us from taking a poison pill. This is the health of our planet we're talking about and it's not simple.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: no, if someone says "water is not wet" I really don't want to know how they came to that belief. It's stupid and outrageous and I will say so.
- Robert Scoble
Robin: you are changing the subject. Again, the ice caps are melting. If the globe is getting cooler, or global warming has been discredited, then you MUST FIRST explain why they are melting.
- Robert Scoble
Justin: I was speaking more in terms of the challenges of groupthink. Thanks for the video.
- Jason Nelson
Robert: The Earth was much warmer than it is now during the "medieval warm period." Agriculture flourished during that time. The planet adapts, humans adapt, animals adapt. Is it *smart* to think we can control all this? I don't think so, but that's my opinion. The difference between you and me is that I would never call you stupid for having a different outlook.
- Dawn
Dawn: why are the polar ice caps melting if you say that "global warming has been discredited?" Your headline above is stupid and until you take it back you are stupid for making such a stupid claim. Once you take it back and admit that was a stupid thing to say we can discuss calmly all the other stuff you'd like to discuss.
- Robert Scoble
Dawn: Are you suggesting that the climate is static?
- Jason Nelson
Robert: "Global warming" is the common contraction for "manmade global warming," a theory that was present to us all as beyond question but has been discredited, like it or not. That's why they've changed the language to "climate change."
- Dawn
Jason: No, exactly the opposite.
- Dawn
Dawn: wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Your headline did NOT say that. Global Warming means that our ice is melting. What causes our ice to melt is something else.
- Robert Scoble
It doesn't matter how much warming is "proved" -- what matter is that people who call themselves scientists have to keep their minds open, keep collecting data, and be willing to accept variations in their theory. it's the religiosity and hype around "global warming" that is so unpersuasive, makes people suspicious. If it is true, surely you don't need to fight so angrily and so hysterically to prove it.
- Prokofy Neva
Robert: You're missing the point - if "Global Warming" is more than just a political banner, then there needs to be a model. Models are more than just linear relationships sure - ice melts therefore there is warming. But that doesn't tell us what will happen in a decade - it could be a cycle - like the seasons. "Global Warming" is a label referring to a group of models that say this is an ongoing trend.
- Robin Barooah
Robert: I'm quite calm, thanks.
- Dawn
Actually, the sea ice measurement in the Southern Hemisphere is quite a bit higher than it's average for this date compared against its average from 1979-2000. http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosph...
- DJ Stevie Steve
Robin: Global Warming is scientists showing us evidence that our planet is warming up. All this stuff you are bringing up is changing the subject. The headline, as it stands is stupid. Global Warming is something you can go outside and observe scientifically. Ice is melting for a reason. We can debate the reason AFTER you admit the planet is warming up and that the headline above is stupid.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: So would you say that "Global Warming" is not also scientists saying that human behavior is causing the warming?
- Robin Barooah
+1 Mark
- Robin Barooah
Robin: no. When I have heard Global Warming talks by top scientists they keep the two separate. First you hear the evidence that the planet is warming up. Then, separately, you hear the evidence that humans caused it.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I hear you about the ice caps melting and that seems proof but then...why did it snow heavily in Wichita the day after everybody turned their lights off for an hour?!
- Prokofy Neva
Prokofy: stop being lame. Local weather does not tell you anything about what is happening to the globe as a whole.
- Robert Scoble
The hallmark of an open society as Karl Popper said is the ability to be able to mount *even a false hypothesis*. Scoble's demand for conformity and labelling of those with dissent as "stupid" is really worrisome.
- Prokofy Neva
Robert: for years the literature has conflated "global warming" with "manmade." That's just a simple fact. For most people, "global warming" still embeds the assumption that it's manmade. If that isn't so, then why all the talk about CO2 emission, etc?
- Dawn
Prokofy: it's easy to prove that Global Warming is happening. Look at the ice melting.
- Robert Scoble
Again: http://uk.reuters.com/article... Why isn't Dawn arguing against this?
- Robert Scoble
Dawn: the literature I've seen has made the two separate. Have you ever gone to a major conference and heard a scientist who is studying the problem speak? I have. They keep the two separate.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: well therein lies one of the roots of our misunderstanding - I put it to you that for many people the label "Global Warming" refers not just to the heating effect, but also to the human influence. The fact that "Global Warming" talks cover both topics implicitly combines the two concepts under one title, even if the scientists separate the evidence for the two.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: then to not make that clear to a reader is stupid too. It's very easy to change the headline above, and apologize for making an incorrect statement. Why hasn't Dawn done that yet?
- Robert Scoble
http://uk.reuters.com/article... Answer this.
- Robert Scoble
Okay, Robert, you're 100% right and I'm an total idiot, as always. But thanks for illustrating what I said about not being about having a rational debate. I'm going to bed. Goodnight.
- Dawn
Dawn: answer this: http://uk.reuters.com/article... here's what scientists are saying TODAY. You have proven you really don't care about the truth or finding it. Idiot.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, if the ice is melting why is there more ice today than during the average from the baseline of 1979-2000?
- DJ Stevie Steve
Leather I have admitted I'm wrong on MANY occassions and corrected mistakes I have made.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Since you seem to be so clear on this, wouldn't it have been better to just ask whether she was conflating the two definitions rather than calling her names?
- Robin Barooah
Steve: provide a scientific link for that. There's a lot less ice everywhere in the world that the satellite photos I've been watching have been seeing.
- Robert Scoble
Robin: answer this: http://uk.reuters.com/article...
- Robert Scoble
ah, the irony.
- Bren
Steve: as ice melts it spreads out. Increasing its area.
- Robert Scoble
Steve: that chart only shows 2008/2009 data. I thought you said 1979.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: I presume your request that I 'answer this' means you haven't been reading my comments given that I introduced some of the points made in this report myself earlier in the thread, and I have repeatedly pointed out that I am not a denier that warming is happening.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: then we have nothing to argue about. Dawn's statement is still idiotic in light of scientific evidence.
- Robert Scoble
And you haven't answered it, really. http://uk.reuters.com/article...
- Robert Scoble
It compares the data to the average from 1979-2000
- DJ Stevie Steve
Check out wikipedia. It says it all. I'm done arguing about whether water is wet. THe globe is warming up. Scientists say it. Our photos of our planet show it. The evidence demonstrates it. If you fight the evidence that shows me you aren't looking for the truth, you just want to troll.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Not really - you misunderstood her definition and called her a name. The article isn't raising a question and I'm not disagreeing with it's observations, so I can't answer it - whatever that's supposed to mean. If you read my comments you won't find a single one where I deny there's warming, and you'll find a number where I support it.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: her headline is very clear and very wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... is the facts.
- Robert Scoble
Okay, Robert, I'll answer this since you keep jumping up and down about it and then I'm going to bed. "Nine of 11 experts, who were among authors of the final summary by the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in 2007 (IPCC)"... Do you not understand that the UN has vested economic and political interest in hyping global warming? I have faith in this report as much as I have faith in reports put out by the fat cats on Wall Street.
- Dawn
The language was never "changed to climate change." Some prefer to use that label because warming occurs at different rates in different places, and there can also be periods of cooling, though overall there's a clear and dangerous warmming trend.
- Jon Lebkowsky
Dawn: exactly. You aren't here to discover truth. You are here to push an agenda. Idiot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... has the facts.
- Robert Scoble
Liking this so I can follow it. Y'all are giving me an idea for my thesis.
- Hookuh Tinypants
Technically "global warming" is an accurate term. The fact and scale of that trend is associated with human activity, that's rather undeniable and commonly accepted.
- Jon Lebkowsky
By the way, when someone calls me an idiot (like Mike Arrington did yesterday on the Gillmor Gang) I either back it up with facts or I apologize for seeing it incorrectly and fix my mistake. Dawn has done neither. She is an idiot. She has done this before. She pushes an agenda of idiocy. I will not put up with it.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: I have to admit I'm trolling you a little - mostly because I'm so disappointed about your approach. I think you are trolling too, calling people 'idiot' as much as you are - the hulk is having fun. My point is that we don't get to anything valuable by attempting to close down debate.
- Robin Barooah
Here's an article I wrote about global warming in 2001: http://findarticles.com/p...
- Jon Lebkowsky
Robin: I have only called one person an idiot so far this year and you are witnessing it. If someone is sincerely looking for truth, or has some new data I don't know about to back it up (that's accepted by the scientific community, that is) then fine. But I won't put up with this kind of idiocy and agenda pushing here.
- Robert Scoble
It was pretty well accepted science, even then - at least among scientists who studied climate and the environment.
- Jon Lebkowsky
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... has the facts. I note that Dawn isn't talking about this data.
- Robert Scoble
As for my "headline" okay, I'm sorry. I meant "manmade global warming" as I have since clarified. As I said many, many comments back, I acknowledge that the planet has warmed this century. But that doesn't change anything else I have said. What agenda you think I'm pushing is beyond me. And why you "won't put up with" free speech is beyond me, too. But I do understand that you like calling me an idiot. Fine. I hope you've enjoyed your opportunity to do so. Now I AM going to bed.
- Dawn
New Data Show Rapid Ice Decline (Washington Post on 4/7/2009): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...
- Robert Scoble
Dawn: free speech is the ability to call idiotic opinions idiotic. You have the freedom to post idiocy. I have the freedom to call you out on it.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Do you think all of the scientists who dissent (who have influenced dawn) are idiots too?
- Robin Barooah
The Washington Post is not saying that Global Warming has been discredited. I wonder what kind of "reputable" source gave Dawn the idea that Warming is discredited?
- Robert Scoble
Robin: there's lots of idiots out there. Remember all the scientists who used to say the world is flat? Riggggghhhttttt. Just cause you went to school for four years doesn't mean you are correct.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: So only statements from "reputable" sources are now allowed in FriendFeed postings?
- Robin Barooah
And, anyway, the ice is melting. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn... If Global Warming is "discredited" then you must explain why that's happening.
- Robert Scoble
Robin: if you want to be taken seriously and not be called an idiot, yes, you must use reputable sources. Or at least explain why your less reputable sources should be taken as credible.
- Robert Scoble
Thick ice vanishing: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...
- Robert Scoble
Robert: So now FriendFeed is only about discussing mainstream opinions that can be supported by easy media reference? I guess I am left wondering why you had to read only the first half of her post, and not read the request for debate. Did you even click on the amazon link to Lovelock's book?
- Robin Barooah
But no, we should allow people to say global warming is not happening for "community" and "niceness" and "diversity of opinions." Hogwash.
- Robert Scoble
Robin: if I say "water is not wet" but then request a debate, what kind of debate is that? It's not a search for truth. If she really wanted a debate she would have demonstrated she sees there's two sides. One that has scientific data behind it and reputable sources and one that does not. But, she should have at least linked to wikipedia and other RECENT news (I've been getting all my links from Google News, this is stuff that's only days old).
- Robert Scoble
Robert: But that's the problem... you're taking the term Global Warming literally to mean the Earth is warming and ignoring Dawn's point.
- Jason Nelson
Robert: Well I don't want to start issuing edicts but I personally thing it's very valuable to allow them to say it, and to try to understand whether they mean what we think they mean before we start insulting them. You didn't do that. Furthermore, this 'water is not wet' thing that you keep repeating is certainly a straw man. It's not that simple a topic.
- Robin Barooah
Jason: Dawn's point is that she doesn't believe the science. I went back and read it. She doesn't believe EU and NASA and other scientists who have PHOTOS and DATA to back up their claims. What can I say to such a person? Idiot.
- Robert Scoble
Robin: it is that simple a topic. Our globe is warming up. That has NOT been discredited. The evidence is VERY clear.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Once again - I ask you whether you've actually listened to any of the alternative opinions? If you haven't then how are you making a judgement? I recommend lovelock because he certainly doesn't deny that warming is happening - he calls it global heating to emphasise that. But he is very skeptical about the scientific understanding of the topic. I find it hard to see how you can call her stupid if you haven't considered any alternative perspectives.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: yes I have. But you are changing the subject again. No one is able to provide credible evidence that our world is not warming up. What there is still some debate about is what is causing it. But the headline above did not make that case and Dawn is unwilling to listen to the credible scientists as she herself admitted. She has an agenda and is trolling.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: Sure the globe is heating up - but I think it's reasonable to read her heading as referring to more than just that. - Perhaps what I'm missing is evidence of her 'agenda'. Is that something you know about from previous interactions?
- Robin Barooah
Robert: That's your interpretation--and you're ignoring the quotes around "Global Warming" she placed in the title of her post.
- Jason Nelson
Robin and Jason. Whatever. I've been very consistent in this whole argument about explaining my problem with the headline. She hasn't corrected it. The headline is stupid and lame and idiotic. On its face. The evidence here is very clear. And I'll go with the scientists who are looking at the recent data. http://news.google.com/news...
- Robert Scoble
Robert: The debate is whether Global Warming is manmade or not. You've done little to nothing to address that point.
- Jason Nelson
Jason: it's very clear that most credible scientists believe it's manmade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Robert Scoble
I'll go with Hillary Clinton: http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens...
- Robert Scoble
Heck, Clinton called Dawn an idiot. Who am I to argue? :-)
- Robert Scoble
Robert: That may well be so - but it's hardly stupid to question it - there are certainly reasonable scientists who have well articulated arguments to the contrary - and their ideas haven't been disproven, and could be part of what we need to know.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: you have provided no links to anything here that is anything close to a "reasonable scientist."
- Robert Scoble
Glen: oopsss, sorry, I was wrong. I corrected my mistake.
- Robert Scoble
What's the harm in altering behavior if there's even a *slight* chance it's caused by man? Really, even if you're not convinced (though I am) isn't it just prudent to take some steps that would have multiple positive benefits? And Occam's Razor would tell you it is man made. As an example (which I've used before), the city block full of asphalt, buildings and combustion versus the bucolic pasture of a dirt road and a log cabin. Same parcel of land, which is hotter?
- AJ Kohn
The debate as to whether it's manmade or not is pretty much pointless, and we can throw "scientific data" at each other till the cows come home and not resolve it. I mean, there's a lot more scientific method supporting psychic phenomenon than supporting the effectiveness of aspirin. Fall on whichever side of that debate you want; my point is that scientific data means not a jot to what people will believe and what they will publicly claim to be true.
- Grey Drane
Robert: Well by your circular definition all 'reasonable scientists' agree with global warming and everyone else is stupid. I have posted a link to work by a controversial but respected scientist who is accepted as a reasonable person although who's ideas are not mainstream. That's what you do in a debate - bring in well reasoned contrary positions. Remember I am not arguing that warming isn't happening - I'm arguing that your name calling is unhelpful to the debate that was asked for.
- Robin Barooah
Whether climate change is manmade or not, I think we can all agree that there's something going on and that it could potentially be very bad for a lot of people, so let's go ahead and do what each of us can to try and minimize the problem, but let's not spend too much time and energy on it, because there are far worse problems right now that we could solve much more easily if we all put our minds to it: poverty, starvation, and on and on.
- Grey Drane
Grey: The problem as I see it is that we don't have a model that tells us what to do that won't make it worse because we don't understand it yet - and global warming could be a lot worse than starvation and poverty - or rather massively increase them.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: "respected" scientists are not controversial. Either they have the data and can demonstrate their claims or they can not. If they are controversial that tells you something.
- Robert Scoble
@Robin: There's history between Robert and Dawn. I'd move on from the 'name calling' meme.
- AJ Kohn
Robin: precisely my point. We don't know what to do about global warming or if there even is anything we can do about it. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Whether or not man caused it, polluting the atmosphere can't be a "good" thing, so let's try and minimize that while people work on finding other solutions. But making a huge deal out of the debate only detracts from the seriousness of other very real problems right now that we *do* know how to solve, if we just made more of an effort.
- Grey Drane
Robert: In that case, perhaps the IPCC shouldn't be 'respected' since their models have not been correct so far. Lovelock has actually proved various predictions of his theory through experiment (and these have been grudgingly accepted) - that doesn't mean he can predict the climate - it just means he's a respectable scientist as I suspect are members of the IPCC. Note that both lovelock and the IPCC agree that there's warming happening. Science is not as simple as you are pretending.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: like I said. The original thesis of this entire post has been disproven. So, I'm off to bed. If you want to argue about causes or something else, gotta do that some other time. In the meantime, Dawn says she wishes to have a rational debate. That is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... no "fear, politics, junk science, or idiocy there"
- Robert Scoble
Grey: See this scoble approved uncontroversial page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... and look at the section on Aerosols. Pollution may well not have been a good thing in the past but getting rid of it now may make things worse. Which is what the core of my point is - this is complex issue and even though it's may be obvious that there is warming, it's not yet clear what moves to make to improve things.
- Robin Barooah
Robert: "Respected" doesn't necessarily equal "good" and "controversial", "bad". More often, "respected" just means "mainstream" and "controversial", "not mainstream". But "not mainstream" could very well (but not, of course, necessarily) mean "cutting edge" and "not *yet* accepted/respected". Not to necessarily defend this specific scientist Robin is talking about, just to bring some balance to your argument.
- Grey Drane
Robert: I think she was asking for a debate with actual people - and not just to be pointed at a page with mainstream views. I guess our buttons are pressed by different issues - you dislike what you see as stupidity, while I would like to see more actual person-to-person debate. It's definitely been interesting and I'm glad to have gone through it.
- Robin Barooah
And before I go - since I'm getting tired too. I'd just like to say for the record that I am not (as you will see if you read the comments!) championing Lovelock's view. I just happen to be reading his book and it's helping me to question my otherwise mainstream assumptions. He's 'respectable' enough to be a Fellow of the Royal Society and a lecture of his on climate change (given there) is here: http://royalsociety.org/podcast...
- Robin Barooah
And the BBC interviewed him last week - which is how I came across his book.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: Sure, but so... what? We should just all go on polluting and burning fossil fuels because it *might* save the world from global warming? Regardless of global warming, in my book, pollution bad. Global warming? *Could* be bad. But poverty, starvation, war, genocide... much worse, not to mention much more verifiable and solvable. So let the global warming debate be solved by those with the skills to solve it, and let's focus on what we "actual people" can actually do something about.
- Grey Drane
Grey: I hear you. I don't know whether it will affect warming, but I have personally done a lot to reduce my resource consumption over the past few years. I gave up my car over a year ago, and have stopped consuming many unnecessary items. I don't think it hurts us to think these things through and debate them for ourselves though - especially since politics and profiteering are involved and we need to be able to distinguish actual science from them lest we be exploited.
- Robin Barooah
Grey: I also think that addressing poverty, starvation, war, genocide, etc. will require quite a lot of debate and understanding divergent points of view! I generally tune out comments like Robert's 'stupid', but I think they close down debate and reduce participation, so I really wanted to see what would happen if I confronted it, especially since FriendFeed is now real-time which makes it much more amenable to actual conversation.
- Robin Barooah
Robin (on first point): OK, yes, debate can be helpful, but then let's frame the debate constructively. This one very clearly wasn't, and in that, I have to side with Robert. And yes, being able to distinguish between actual science and nonsense would be great, but I'm not sure that throwing scientific articles back and forth at each other is the best way to achieve that.
- Grey Drane
Robin (on point after that): And on poverty, etc., yes, these are definitely not "easy" things to solve, but they are much easier, relatively speaking, to solve than "global warming", which may very well not be solvable at all, at least not to a degree that will make any significant difference. Poverty -> give people more money. Starvation -> give people more food. Yes, there are cultural and societal issues involved, but the ultimate solution is clear.
- Grey Drane
Grey: I actually agree that the framing wasn't great. So do you support robert in dismissing Dawn as 'stupid' rather than suggesting the framing was bad - or even just ignoring the debate? I doubt I'd have even got involved if he hadn't done that - I'm subscribed to him not her.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: Hmm... that's a tough one, and I was just thinking about that actually. Honestly, I do resonate with Robert's view there, but wouldn't have expressed it in so many words. Should *Robert* not have? Dunno. I tend to think that Robert, specifically, can actually get away with it, whereas most others probably wouldn't and would just be seen as "trolls". Not sure I can express exactly why I feel that way. Like you say, I wouldn't be in this debate either if Robert hadn't said exactly what he said.
- Grey Drane
Grey: I think it's the fact that other people would look like just some random troll, but that Robert has more influence that made me want to call him on it. I would just unsubscribe or block people who troll - and so far I've unsubscribed from a few, but never blocked anyone. It's not so simple with Robert because he brings in valuable information though his activities, so it's costly to block him if you're interested in the other aspects of what he says.
- Robin Barooah
BTW, I'm not saying I think Dawn is "stupid", just that I resonate with Robert's reaction to her claims.
- Grey Drane
Grey: ergo I challenged him rather than blocking him. Re:Dawn - I don't understand her viewpoint yet but I wanted to hear how she got there.
- Robin Barooah
Robin: Yep. There's no point engaging a troll, but Robert is generally an intelligent, reasonable person and, as you say, influential. And because it was Robert, I actually didn't think what he said was that bad. Whether he actually thinks Dawn is stupid or not is largely irrelevant, and I hope (and think) Dawn understands that. The point is that he thinks what she said was... not thought through enough, and on that, I would largely agree with him.
- Grey Drane
Robert calls 'em as he sees 'em, and I think we all understand and expect that. Sometimes that means he'll step on some toes, and sometimes those toes will need stepping on and sometimes they won't. Nobody's perfect. Anyway....
- Grey Drane
Hmm... I guess I'm not exactly supporting Robert calling people stupid. But I know one or two other people who, online at least, are... let's say "overly direct", but people know that's just how they are and have learned not to take it personally. Could they communicate more effectively? Definitely. Does that make it OK for everyone to be intentionally offensive. Definitely not. But it is also true that it can be refreshing to engage with someone you know isn't holding back just to be "socially correct".
- Grey Drane
'something very ugly has surfaced in contemporary American liberalism, as evidenced by the irrational and sometimes infantile abuse directed toward anyone who strays from a strict party line. Liberalism, like second-wave feminism, seems to have become a new religion for those who profess contempt for religion. It has been reduced to an elitist set of rhetorical formulas, which posit the...
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- Aidan Mann
Wow what a discussion. Lots of nasties being thrown about. The globe is heating up, the polar caps are melting. IT IS A NATURAL PART OF THE CYCLE OF THE PLANET. The reality of this is as the dinosaurs were wiped out when the planet went through severe climate change, and later the glaciers extended way down into the N. America and Europe (polar regions EXPANDING) and the continents shift as the planet goes through internal heatings and coolings of it's mantle. The planet's electro magnetic forces
- Amy Flynn
cause shifts in an already wobbly axis, climate change (often severe is experienced on Earth every so many thousands of years. It is NORMAL. The "ruse" is that it is something that man has caused. Surely we are not helping by removing necessary greenery (rain forrests) and polluting, but we are not CAUSING a very natural occurence in the planet's cycle. Check this out, you will see that we are experiencing an Earth cycle. Everything in the Universe is orderly and organized, nothing is random.
- Amy Flynn
The earth has an unstable rotation, it's axis is tilted causing a wobble. This wobble creates an instability in the core of the planet. It "corrects" it's wobble every so many thousands of years. There are also other factors that exert magnetic pull on the earth's magnetic core. Passing planets, dark matter, so called dark planets and the like. This is science people, not politics. Nothing unusual is going on. The planet is behaving as it always has.
- Amy Flynn
Climate change is a natural Thing. It's been happening since before we were here. To say that we are causing it is rather big headed. We maybe having an effect but it is almost impossible to say how much of an effect.
- Jamie Vidamour
Robert spent an hour and a half calling me stupid and an idiot for saying "global warming" instead of "manmade global warming." My position was that the "manmade" part is embedded in the term, and he said I was wrong. This is from NASA's website http://www.nasa.gov/topics... "To a scientist, global warming describes the average global surface temperature increase from human emissions of greenhouse gases."
- Dawn
As for what prompted me to write this, I was flipping through channels and heard somebody talking about the media's name change (from "global warming" to "climate change") and why it's occur (because global warming cannot be accepted as a fact but merely as a theory). I couldn't link to anything because I didn't see this online and I didn't even catch the names. But I've head these kind...
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- Dawn
Scoble, you're smart when it comes to tech stuff, no doubt. But blocking someone because they are skeptical about global warming is pretty disappointing.
- Shey
There's nothing "only" about a scientific theory. People need to really understand that. In science "theory" is about the strongest type of idea there is. When something gets to theory status it's been thoroughly tested and vetted to fit the known evidence.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
Side comment: far fewer people ever believed the earth was flat than people seem to think. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Justin Long
"Known evidence" is right. I dare say we aren't nearly as knowledgeable about the workings of this planet as we think we are. Theories often change over time. Like I said, I remember the experts saying in the 70s that the Earth was getting colder.
- Dawn
Interesting, Justin. Thanks.
- Dawn
Since this thread hasn't gone away yet I will reference this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - In particular: Andrew Neil of the BBC stated that "... You don't have to be a climate-change denier to recognise that there's a great range of opinion on the subject."
- Robin Barooah
Wow--interestingly emotional thread. I actually have very vivid memories of the 70's warnings about an impending ice age. That was also a time of acute interest in environmental issues. Who can forget this video, for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch.... I even remember when representatives from the Byron, IL nuclear plant that was built in the mid 70's visited our...
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- Kathy Fitch
McDonald's Wisdom: RT @CoachDeb: RT @sharoneden “If you’re not a risk-taker, you should get the hell out of business.” Ray Kroc
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Thanks for the REtweet OF the retweet :)
- Deborah Micek
Car Guys: I hear it's @ScottMonty 's birthday, have a good one brother! #Ford
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Three Men to Bicycle 2,000 Miles to Build Orphanage | Social Media in the Real World - http://www.firstcollegenowwhat.com/2009...
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Start a Media Empire on Your Day Off - http://www.firstcollegenowwhat.com/2009...
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Want to become a social media mogul and millionaire business titan? Got $2,000 and a serious will to win? Tech podcaster Leo Laporte is one such millionaire (ok, his gear costs more than $2,000) teaching us all about the new rules of media.
- Joe Mescher
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OMG he just BLASTS THrough other football players! BooYAH STeffen!
- Deborah Micek
yes crazy how strong he is.
- Laura Gonzalez
@CoachDeb http://twitpic.com/2yyua - Your desk is actually very neat comparably speaking
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Seesmic Desktop Twitter Application Preview Release - http://laughingsquid.com/seesmic...
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Facebook just shot a HUGE hole in yellowpages.com's business model. Why? Think about your phone books.
Daniel Rowley, Rob Boek, A Mitchell and 32 other people liked this
especially since it transfers engagement
- Mrinal Desai
Facebook now has BOTH a "white pages" for people and a "yellow pages" for businesses. BOOM. Huge shift underway in business. Will take five years to play out, but remember this moment in time. It's huge.
- Robert Scoble
huh?
- Katy Pearce
LOL if thats what works then people will stop creating Groups like "lost my phone need numbers" which are probably the largest number of groups on there.
- Hardeep Singh Dang
Didn't Google Maps / Local do that years ago?
- andy brudtkuhl
interesting.
- AJ
Phone books? They arrive here. I put them in the closet. I throw them out, untouched, when the next one arrives.
- Ian May
Phone books go straight into the recycling bin.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Ian: now imagine what you can do with a good yellow pages in Facebook and location.
- Robert Scoble
I'm enjoying the Events portion of FB because I can import to my iCal for local goings on.
- ursi
That's a good one, from a business model POV. Didn't see that coming...
- Tomi Itkonen
Here's what you can do with your old useless phonebooks: http://www.dailyhack.net/2009... ... there must some recycling project we can do with our old useless yellowpages.com website! ;D
- Charlie Flowers
Phone books have been obsolete for a while now, wondering why I even keep one at home. I never use yellowpages.com's website, Google Maps does everything I need.
- Oliver
I don't use the phone book, I check online (say, anywho.com) and look up a number using a service that doesn't require me to log in and doesn't potentially keep track of the numbers I look up in a fashion that's tied to my actual name.
- FFing Enigma
I agree with most commenters -- yellow pages for people that are active online users has been dead for years. I don't see any actual shift here.
- Brian Sullivan
Haven't used phonebooks for almost 10 years. Between Yahoo-To-Go and Google Maps, I haven't needed it. My now 3 yr. GPS tells me everything I need and so does the GPS/Live Search on my phone. Why would I go to Facebook to look up numbers?
- Anika
Robert, after you have a day to think about it, you'll see this is not significant. Local info is already readily available via the open web.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Brian: you aren't thinking enough. This is HUGE. Look at Google Latitude. What is missing? Businesses!
- Robert Scoble
Well, at least I can tear Facebook in half!
- Morgan
Eh? I find businesses via GMaps/Latitude all the time. And sorry, there's no way I'm going to "friend" my local sub shop. It sounds like a good idea...but the spam factor I expect to be atrocious. Businesses don't behave well in the social graph, as of yet.
- Ken Kennedy
+1 Morgan!
- andy brudtkuhl
Robert: remember I have experienced your immediate "this is huge, this is going to change my life and everybody else's" responses to "new" technology in the past. You have been right occasionally but mostly you have been wrong.
- Brian Sullivan
I still don't see how this will make a huge shift. Sure maybe 1/3 of fb users might use it from time to time but Google has been doing this for several years now..
- _null_
Anyone video this so we can watch it ourselves?
- Simon Wicks
I disagree with Robert. This probably isn't that huge.
- Zach Underwood
Now I get it. Facebook will become the über-directory of all data. Hidden from GoogleBots; invisible to Google search. In the future, browsing the web equals logging into Facebook and viewing its content stemming from the user's profile and social graph. Cue "Also sprach Zarathustra". Heh.
- Tomi Itkonen
"In the future, browsing the web equals logging into Facebook and viewing its content" - Prodigy, CompuServe, and AOL say "Great plan!"
- John Craft
I just carried my yellow pages from the doorstep to the garbage without unrapping it, like I've done for the past 5 years
- Francine Hardaway
from twhirl
I've thought of facebook as pretty boring for the past few years. I still log in several times a week though to check the facebook mail and approve friend requests that's about it really though. It sort of freaks me out when I log on though and people start trying to chat at me.
- Thomas Hawk
+1 John
- Todd Hoff
everyone's missing the point here --- imagine you are walking/driving around looking for the next hangout to hit or something to do with the family and you fire up the old smartphone and search for "free kid's entertainment in peoria." if businesses are correctly utilizing local search/business listings, the top ten search results on any search engine oughta be chock full of IYP listings AND facebook entry for your local "free kids petting zoo," etc... there's no reason facebook and IYP can't co-exist.
- Michelle
@Michelle never once have i thought about opening up facebook on my iphone to find something to do.. Why would you when you can just google it? or check yelp? or ask on twitter?
- andy brudtkuhl
"Why would you when you can just google it? - Andy, on another post FB was referred to as a "Social Network Operating System." Imagine a FB response to Android - instead of Google being embedded in your phone, FB is.
- John Craft
On 2020, a book is published on Facebook *only*. The title will be "From Spank Me To Elect A President - How Facebook Conquered The World".
- Tomi Itkonen
I help publish a small yellow pages directory in our town. We have a 60%+ senior population & design our book around this. We can compete with the much larger Qwest book because ours is developed with our community in mind. I can see light in the tunnel & where facebook is going with this but I still think there will be room for specialized local info & search.
- Patrick Looney
@John Are you suggesting a FB mobile operating system? that will never happen. In the meantime though - no one will use facebook to "find stuff"
- andy brudtkuhl
"suggesting a FB mobile operating system? that will never happen." - Not exactly - FB apps making up a PRE-like UI. Never? There are 150 million + people on FB, 2% market share would be a very successful phone.
- John Craft
@john there's no possible way you can correlate the number of people on facebook to mobile phone market share. I know people on Facebook who don't even have a computer.
- andy brudtkuhl
robert, i still don't get it. i type "business name" "san francisco" into google and then click on either a google map result or a yelp result to get biz info. not sure how facebook pages will change that for me or anyone else.
- Deva Hazarika
I can't remember the last time I used a phonebook. In fact I just threw a bunch of those old dead tree directories out a while ago.
- Ernie Oporto
from Nambu
wth is a phonebook? I haven't used one in years except as packing supplies.
- Jason Shultz
from twhirl
@Patrick - sure, but that threatens yelp.com more than yellow pages imo
- Deva Hazarika
I get really annoyed when phone books show up on my doorstep. Really I think the internet in general has made phone books obsolete.
- Jason
somebody dropped one off on my doorstep the other day. I work from home so when it happened I tried to return it. The guy got mad at me for returning it.
- Jason Shultz
from twhirl
Save a forest Bell South. This time I disagree with Robert.
- Russellreno
What's a phone book?
- Richard Akerman
The real game changer is happening this month with the go-live of .tel, which will add social media features to web-less directory lookups. Impacts will be greatest for the billions who have mobile phones but no computer. Doesn't look like FB or Plaxo or mEgo et al have a .tel strategy. My website? "Just .tel me."
- A Mitchell
Mark Zuckerberg just shredded your yellow pages. HUGE day for Facebook (photo):
Mike Elliott, Paul Colligan, AJ Batac :) and 17 other people liked this
How did he do that? Updates please.
- Hardeep Singh Dang
He just announced that brands and celebrities would be "full members" in the social graph. That is a HUGE shift in Facebook's strategy.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, what does "brands and celebrities would be 'full members' in the social graph" mean? Why do celebrities matter? Oy, these guys are going to become MySpace. Just another crappy pickup website.
- Rob Fahrni
details please...
- John Czwartacki
english please!
- David Bisset (sn)
@Robert Scoble: so instead of being fan "pages" they'll be actual profiles?
- nick
well i guess this is their answer to the user growth.. i dont really care for it..
- _null_
They should change their name to MyFace
- Darin Codon
is it a small step from brands to companies and organizations of all types?
- Dan Brickley
That's strange, my yellow pages are right here, unshredded. But I will keep a keen eye on its imminent destruction.
- Omar Gallaga
who has yellow pages anymore?
- Deva Hazarika
Going back to mail2ff from OurDoings, eh? Anything I can fix?
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
Deva: I have them. They are yellow.
- Omar Gallaga
Isn't this what Rupert said they were - facebook = phonebook? He saw MySpace as diffferent and o-so-much better. Wonder if he's still going to use that argument.
- Tom
@Darin: there already is a MyFace (http://www.myface.com/) so they can't :P
- Rene, Pro Button Pusher
http://blog.broadbandmechanics.com/2009... - FINALLY!
- Marc Canter
It just looks like another site reorg like they just did a few months ago. FaceSpace still isn't Twitter or FriendFeed.
- Ernie Oporto
from Nambu
Yellow PAges is AWESOME = for Firewood in Fireplace
- Deborah Micek
The last dead tree version of the yellow pages I have is from 1998 - don't miss it so never chased phone company
- Andy Beard
Michael : the rest of my feed here has a TON of stuff.
- Robert Scoble
how are they going to make money, that's what I want to know
- Ryan
rt @ mvolpe New data on Twitter Application Usage from HubSpot - http://blog.hubspot.com/blog...
Deborah Micek liked this
Social Media is about giving your brand a soul @nowsourcing interviewed http://www.searchenginepeople.com/blog...
Deborah Micek liked this
What is RSS | RSS Guide for Beginners | Introduction to RSS @ Better Business Blogging - http://www.betterbusinessblogging.com/rss-inf...
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Deborah Micek liked this
Wulffy and Deborah Micek liked this
I'm really enjoying making time lapse videos using the Timelapse iPhone App http://www.flickr.com/photos...
Deborah Micek liked this
The Internet Voted Most Important Innovation in 30 Years - http://www.buildabetterblog.com/2009...
Deborah Micek liked this
Microsoft announces Windows Mobile 6.5 - http://www.engadget.com/2009...
Deborah Micek, Jim Connolly, Hisham Sadek هشام and 5 other people liked this
slowly creeping forward in innovation.
- Randy Ksar
from twhirl
I refuse to buy another smartphone until they make one with a screen bigger than a tiny playing card. If I can't navigate the touch screen because it's too small, the OS doesn't matter.
- MarkCarras
Too little too late - There's better alternatives out there IMHO.
- Jim Connolly
Facebook's 5,000 Friend Limit Has a Ripple Effect Across Social Networks (Discussion Here)
Tinu Abayomi-Paul, Mike Morrell, James Guske and 71 other people liked this
The most popular people on Facebook have run up against a limit of friends, capped at 5,000. Whether they have 50,000 'fans' or 6,000, those 5,001 and up can't connect.
- Louis Gray
FriendFeed automatically assumes that if you are a friend on Facebook, you are also a friend on FriendFeed. This leads to why many "A-Listers" have high subscriber counts, even if the person didn't add them manually.
- Louis Gray
Louis do you know what percentage of Facebook's user base this affects? This is a non issue for me (and a lot of others who aren't following/followed by that many I suspect).
- Brian Daniel Eisenberg
That said, if said person only can have 5,000 of those automatically connected, they actually have _fewer_ subscribers than they would otherwise, if Facebook were to expand the cap to 10,000 or 20,000 or higher.
- Louis Gray
And what do you think of LinkedIn, there limit is 30.000. They simply don´t get it.
- Jan Mulder
Additionally, as these Facebook/FriendFeed subscribers would be exposed to said individual's stream of all social sites, they would be more likely to follow said individual on other sites, as well as be exposed to these "top" people's friends, comments and likes.
- Louis Gray
But if they are not allowed to connect with those people on Facebook, and don't manually add them on FriendFeed, the are operating outside of this Venn Diagram.
- Louis Gray
Thus, assuming the above, Facebook's cap reduces the total number of followers that all A-listers have across all networks, and, due to trickle-down, reduces the exposure and followers that each other person interacting with said people also has... (think of it as six degrees of "A Lister Name Goes Here")
- Louis Gray
I'm glad Facebook has the limits. Lifting the limit would only be an advantage for people broadcasting to lots of people. But Facebook works best when it is a smaller group interacting together. And if someone was broadcasting on it all day, they would just be creating noise in a system designed to eliminate it. I don't want my friends sending status updates telling me to look at their blog. I want to see status updates from my actual friends telling me about their lives.
- Andrew
Given Facebook's self-imposed definition of a friend, I really wonder how many people (if anyone) can seriously argue, given Facebook's definition, that they have 5,000 friends.
- Mark Trapp
Brian, I would guess it impacts a small amount. But assuming that those who it affects are influential, and can help spread the word about other services and people, it does affect those who don't run into the 5k cap. I don't, for example, expect to hit the 5k cap ever (or far, far away) as I am "only" at 700.
- Louis Gray
Jan, the LinkedIn limit is 30,000? LinkedIn only shows "500+" when you get to that point (where I am now)
- Louis Gray
Sid, one option would be to do a fan page, which yes, sounds egotistical. But that won't solve the FriendFeed/Facebook synchronization.
- Louis Gray
Josh, your note on Facebook wanting to only include "real friends" is a lot like Twitter wanting you to only add real connections and avoid auto-follow. It's like trying to force a utopia, when reality is going a different way. I have no indication they will change the limit.
- Louis Gray
LinkedIn is designed to promote business connections. They should be limitless. Facebook would gain nothing from lifting the limit except a headache from "powerusers" since their service doesn't need the PR of influential users.
- Andrew
Andrew, what is more likely? That you have 5,000 real friends, or 5,000 real business connections? I think I'm equal on Facebook and LinkedIn. I used to have hard/fast rules on who I let in, but then I realized people just want to follow and get connected, so why should I stop them?
- Louis Gray
Chris - that sounds boring! :-)
- Louis Gray
I agree that the *friend* ecosystem across social networks should not be constrained in such a way that prevents people from connecting with other people. You might also argue that this network effect could be used as rationale for *premium* services that extract $$ from those who want to broadcast to such large numbers of *friends*. Just sayin.
- Brian Daniel Eisenberg
Louis - Who said every business relationship on LinkedIn has to be used? How many people who take your business card actually use it? If I used LinkedIn, I would want as many connections as I could get in case I ever needed them. But again, increasing this limit on Facebook would only create a competition for friends and more noise in the system. I enjoy Facebook as it is now. I don't have a single person begging me to look at their stuff. I have my friends telling me about their lives.
- Andrew
Brian, one interesting approach has been taken by AssetBar (http://www.assetbar.com), where popular people with good content can charge fans for access, using micropayments. But I would bet that popular people who stretch the limits wouldn't want to pay for more access, but in fact, might feel entitled to it.
- Louis Gray
I disagree, I don't think it does have a ripple effect across other social networks, it's just common sense so the system isn't abused such as twitter's 2000 limit. FF doesn't have such a risk
- The Real sofarsoShawn
So what's the added value of connecting to people you don't know in Facebook? Who's going to work 5,000 Facebook connections? Is Robert Scoble actually checking in on the daily lives of 5,000 people on Facebook? Connecting for the sake of connecting begs the question, "why?" If a bunch of people want to follow what Robert Scoble's doing, there's the option of a fan page, which works in...
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- Mark Trapp
Similarly, the argument could be made that Twitter's initial limit to stop you from following more than 2,000 reduces both your exposure and those you want to follow, but it is less automatic than FriendFeed's/Facebook integration. Regardless of which socnet has a cap, it reduces total #'s everywhere.
- Louis Gray
Mark, I think many people correctly assume the majority of conversation is one way when the #'s get that high. Connecting to so many people doesn't just let you check in on them, but let's them get access to you. It's not an issue of being nice or making them feel good, but enabling two-way conversation, if wanted, where it is otherwise blocked.
- Louis Gray
this is very upsetting to me - i am considering not using facebook until they increase the limit - in fact, i may not eat anything with milk in it in a continual protest. facebook has a "fans" page - you can go unlimited there - "friend" used to mean something - today it does not.
- Allen Stern
Social Media's all a Multi-Level Marketing scheme - the closer you get to the top, the more influential you are. ;-)
- Jesse Stay
For example, FriendFeed has no limit. If they stopped us from connecting at 2,000 or 5,000, there might already be people on this thread who I couldn't see or talk to.
- Louis Gray
Josh, LinkedIn has let you connect as a "friend" for some time now, as they made big strides to get more like Facebook.
- Louis Gray
@Sid Totally agree that everyone should be able to be Robert's *friend* and that there should be an extensibility model that supports the growth of one's social graph across social networks.
- Brian Daniel Eisenberg
So Chris, more like Twitter's model then? 2k, and once you get a similar number of followers, stay within 10%?
- Louis Gray
again, these sites aren't designed for self promotion which edges close to spam, which is why the caps are in place
- The Real sofarsoShawn
It's a false assumption to make that a social connection has to be made in order to get in touch with someone. Email, still the main communication method of choice, requires only knowing one thing: a person's email address. Facebook doesn't require a friendship to be made to send a private message. Neither does LinkedIn. FriendFeed doesn't even have a method to communicate directly with people.
- Mark Trapp
So it's down to Twitter and Jabber that require a mutual follow: rather than conflating one concept (being connected to someone) with another (being able to communicate with someone), it seems to make more sense to say the Twitter and Jabber methods are failures. Just think about real life: the other day, I walked up to a stranger and asked her how to get to a bus. I didn't walk up to...
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- Mark Trapp
louis - if you need to remove someone so you can add another person on ff, i am willing to go - it was a nice run we had - but i understand upgrading
- Allen Stern
+1240140140 @sofarsoshawn - all these social networks now are is marketing networks - 85,000 followers for tc/mash on twitter - why? because they can spam their posts all day and get traffic - same with facebook, etc. one of the reasons fc hired scoble is because he has access to these networks, etc.
- Allen Stern
Allen, if we had to have FriendFeed friend layoffs, it'd just be you and me at the end.
- Louis Gray
*shucks* thanks louis
- Allen Stern
Someone has a good point.
- tony
Louis, at some level I think it goes against the philosophy of Facebook to *not* have a limit. The designers didn't conceive that someone would be able to maintain "relationships" with 5000+ people. In that sense, what is the point of having more friends than you can keep up with?
- Ryan Stanley
thanks tony - glad you agree with me :)
- Allen Stern
Mark Zuckerberg, founder/CEO of Facebook, told me that the 5,000 member limit would go away this year.
- Robert Scoble
Brian, only a small number of people have 5,000 friends (a few thousand people according to Facebook execs I've talked with).
- Robert Scoble
yay robert - woo - i hope we can have a faceUP (like a tweetup) that weekend so we can get everyone together to add new followers on facebook! "i got marge, you got marge? no, ok here's marge"
- Allen Stern
Why do I want more than 5,000 Facebook contacts? Because if Facebook is to be used for business (lots of people want to use it that way) it must be an open rolodex. I have 9,000 business cards. I want to add each person I've met to my Facebook social graph. Fan pages are NOT enough. Why? Because a lot of times I want to call you and I want to check out your home page. I can't do that if you aren't added to my social graph in Facebook. Facebook has become very much less useful to me because of this.
- Robert Scoble
Allen: my friend Buzz Bruggeman has 12,000 business contacts in Outlook that he's collected during his career. Facebook is useless to him.
- Robert Scoble
As per earlier discussion: http://friendfeed.com/e... yes it has a ripple effect, but one that can only be beneficial as a limiting agent, I agree with Scoble on the ridiculous want for more FB friends you don't ever talk to business isn't done on FB
- The Real sofarsoShawn
if you have 9,000 business cards, you should absolutely buy a cloudcontacts package :)
- Allen Stern
I am going to use CloudContacts soon. Probably in the next two weeks.
- Louis Gray
Perhaps the cap originated with the idea that one can only have 5000 friends in the old sense of the term, when it was just college students. http://scienceblogs.com/clock... Perhaps now that many of us use Facebook for business, the term should be changed to avoid this confusion: http://www.facebook.com/home...
- Bora Zivkovic
Thanks Louis!
- Allen Stern
Facebook for business does seem contrary to their initial user-base. For me it will be like mixing business with pleasure. I recognize keeping them absolutely separate is an impossible endeavor. My only request is whatever tools they give us to manage the various contact lists and relationships are extremely functional.
- Ryan Stanley
Could you be friends with your boss?
- The Real sofarsoShawn
shawn, walking on thin ice there.. I wouldn't do it..
- embee
If some uber popular person wants to connect to fans through Facebook they could just use the Fan page feature.
- Mathew™ aka Youngblood
Mathew: Fan pages suck. I want to use Facebook like a rolodex. Keep all potential contacts in one place and be able to look them up and call them and interact with them on messaging and wall features.
- Robert Scoble
But, do you really need to have even 5000 people to keep in contact with for important things in the future? Maybe I just don't get it since I don't even have 100 "friends" on Facebook.
- Mathew™ aka Youngblood
what about system stability? is it fair to the 99%, to have the 1% noisiest cripple the system?
- Peter Warnock
Peter: friendfeed proves you're wrong. If you design your systems properly NO ONE will be able to cripple your systems.
- Robert Scoble
Friendfeed also doesn't have anywhere near the amount of users that Facebook does.
- Mathew™ aka Youngblood
Mathew: while that's true, I have 27,000+ followers and am following 13,000+ here. It works great every single time.
- Robert Scoble
Facebook strikes me as a business plan kind of company. If their original plan and driving philosophy included a friend ceiling, then it'll be interesting to see how they scale. FF on the other hand, seems to have the right philosophy for an infinite rolodex (now if only they'd catch up with the usability part).
- Ryan Stanley
Facebook's bottom line: you should only add genuine friends. I don't think I know a single person with 5,000 *real* friends. Needless to say, FB is going to give into this demand in due time, I guess, but I still won't add the 430+ friends I have in my pending requests because I don't know them. They're my fans, not my friends.
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: define "friend."
- Robert Scoble
I define a "friend" as someone I want in my social graph. Who the hell are you to tell me how many friends I can have? Or to define "friendship" for me. What the hell is a "friend" anyway? I really would love someone to define that so I can know for sure whether you're my friend or not.
- Robert Scoble
In semi-related news, in terms of genuinity, Facebook has started stripping titles on names, even if people are known with that name (see http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id...). In a way, that pisses me off - do you know how many FAKE people have friended me on Facebook in the last year and that Facebook hasn't taken care of? "Rabbi" is part of these guys' identities; I'm not really sure I approve of this. I certainly don't see how Facebook should make that call either.
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: I agree with you there. I should be able to call myself whatever I damn well please. That said, because Facebook does have a lot of utility as a business directory/rolodex I do appreciate that it tries to get people to use their real names. Makes searching for people a lot easier.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, we had this discussion 2 weeks ago. In fact, that's almost the exact question you asked me. My opinion hasn't changed. See http://friendfeed.com/e...
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: your definition over there is "people you know personally." Well, hell, I know more than 9,000 people personally and have their business cards to prove it. So, why are you trying to limit me to 5,000 friends?
- Robert Scoble
IMO, Robert, Facebook should not allow fake identities at all. In terms of the specific complaint, I don't consider a Rabbi a fake identity, especially if that's their title and people even call these individuals "Rabbi" to their faces (yes, when growing up, I called a lot of my teachers "Rabbi" almost as a first name). Those who have fake identities often have real identities and Facebook should terminate the fake ones and force the individuals to use their real names only on the service. (contd)
- Tamar Weinberg
Define "people you know."
- Robert Scoble
For about a year and a half, Facebook did nothing and these fake identities started cropping up. But in 2006, Facebook was serious about it (see this group here named in memory of "St Augustine of Hippo" who was a figment of some kid's imagination: http://www.facebook.com/home...). Facebook should NEVER have gotten lax on this. It's pretty annoying that they couldn't be consistent.
- Tamar Weinberg
I think that definition changes from person to person. Will I add someone I spoke to for all of 2 minutes? If I feel comfortable that they're accessing personal photos, wall posts, etc, then sure. But I speak of a personal face-to-face interaction, Robert. You're a popular guy on the 'net, and surely you have a lot of people who follow everything about you - but would you invite all 5,000+ for an intimate dinner? Would you even have something to talk about? You tell me.
- Tamar Weinberg
Facebook isn't a business network. Equating this with the number of business cards in your collection doesn't do it for me. Plus, do you remember EVERYONE who handed you your business card?
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: actually I usually do and keep in mind I only get cards from one out of maybe four people I meet. Finally, I know a lot more about people online than I do just by meeting them and collecting their email address on a piece of paper. But, again, who the hell are you to tell me how many people I am allowed to "know?"
- Robert Scoble
Tamar: intimate dinner means one other person. No more. Would I love to have an intimate dinner with 5,000 people and there's only 365 days in a year? Absolutely but I can't eat that much. Now, would I love to have a dinner with 5,000 people? I've already done that. At Microsoft we had 7,000 at one dinner. See, if we're going to use these tools for BUSINESS then you need to have more than 5,000 friends.
- Robert Scoble
Nobody is saying you're allowed to know any specific # of people, but I will stick to the argument that Facebook is looking to foster genuine friendships, not just people looking to broaden their social connections. Like I said, I have 430+ pending friend requests from people who may know me in some capacity, but I'm not going to accept them because I've never met them. I don't know them. It's awkward for me to let them know personal details about my life. Facebook doesn't want to encourage it either.
- Tamar Weinberg
Did you just redefine "friend" as someone you've had an intimate dinner with?
- Robert Scoble
What is a "genuine" friendship? Do you have to sleep with me to prove you're "genuine?"
- Robert Scoble
I share my personal details of my life with everyone, not just my friends. You all know I have kidney disease. What's more personal than that?
- Robert Scoble
Mark Zuckerberg disagrees with you about what he wants to encourage, by the way. So I'll go with his definition of where Facebook is going: a social utility.
- Robert Scoble
I don't think intimate necessarily means one other person, but if you want to look at it that way, how about I rephrase: would you invite a handful of your FB friends (and/or pending friends you can't approve) to a close-knit (better?) personal face-to-face dinner? And if that dinner materialized and all of your friends actually attended, would there really be something for everyone to talk about? Or at least for you as the host and orchestrator of the event?
- Tamar Weinberg
I define a Facebook "friend" as someone who I want on my social graph. Any other definition is defacto wrong.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, curious to know: do you hand-pick all of your Facebook friends or do you accept everyone who sends you an incoming request?
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: I look at each one and decide whether they would be interesting in my social graph. Some I give full privileges to. Others I restrict their access.
- Robert Scoble
Regarding Facebook and Dinner. I regularly held dinners in Seattle for EVERYONE. I love meeting new people and, yes, we opened our house up for people I knew only online regularly. So, answer is "totally" yes.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I actually answered this question in 2007 when I blogged about how I personally network with people on Facebook. I should probably do that chart again and find out how many of those people I actually *don't* know (because yes, before Facebook became open to the entire world, I was a little more liberal with my choosing of friends if there was some common ground). See post and pie chart: http://www.techipedia.com/2007...
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: your usage of Facebook is wonderful but is irrelevant. A Facebook "friend" is someone you want on your social graph. We are both using Facebook correctly. But if you try to limit my ability to use Facebook to your weird rules I will yell bloody murder. I don't try to force you to use Facebook according to my rules, so why do you try to force me to use Facebook according to yours? Are you religious? Sure seems like it. You remind me of the evangelical Christians I used to hang out with.
- Robert Scoble
I contend, then, Robert, that you're in the 0.00001% of Facebook users. (Actually, that number is a bit too generous IMO if Facebook is really at 175 million users.) I had a client who mass-friended some of my own friends and some of my personal friends (including some high-school classmates) actually accepted. THAT is something I hate. To some people, Facebook is about whoring every single contact you can possible gather, and that's not how I appreciate the service being used.
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: again, you are being a real jerk if you try to put your ideas of who should be on your social graph onto ME. Who the hell made you the social graph queen?
- Robert Scoble
Sid: as soon as I can add more than 5,000 friends on Facebook you'll be added. I have 4,500 people I want to add to my social graph and I can't.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, as you realize, though, I'm saying that this is how I believe Facebook *wants* the service to be used as. They want those genuine friendships and not just the social graphing bit (which to them is actually a relatively newer phenomenon than Facebook itself). Your usage is more of an anomaly, IMO. That's why as I said initially here, FB will give into this demand in due time, but that's not part of the initial perception of the service. Call me old school. It's a personal preference.
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: do you know Mark Zuckerberg or Sheryl Sandberg? I do. They tell me you are wrong. So why are you trying to stick up for wrong ideas?
- Robert Scoble
Robert, if you're going to make personal attacks for my observations and how I'm trying to understand Facebook's current policy, then I'm not interested in continuing this conversation. To each his own. But are you saying that it's appropriate for people to start adding random friends of friends? Fine. I guess that's how my ex-client chose to socially graph. Again, I hate it and felt it...
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- Tamar Weinberg
Perhaps I'm doing it 'wrong'. I tend to add interesting people here, and family and mostly (but not entirely) physical friends in Facebook. I spend way more time here and Twitter than I do in facebook, simply because more interesting stuff happens here, more often. Whilst I do like social interaction, and not just endless links to your blog or pet interest or business, much of what I get on Facebook is simply photos of the drunken exploits the night before, or the fact that your wearing blue pants today.
- Ian May
Tamar: people who try to force me to use services the way THEY do are jerks. Sorry, but if I tried to force you to use Facebook the way I do I would be a jerk too.
- Robert Scoble
Sid, and that's fine, but IMO (and apparently only now Robert has acknowledged that I'm wrong) Facebook had this user limitation because of the desire to keep friends "friends." If I'm wrong, why didn't he say so when I made the first statement? If this prior statement "Facebook's bottom line: you should only add genuine friends" was wrong, why was it pointed out NOW?
- Tamar Weinberg
Robert, clearly you are an outlier (and you know it). To most people, friends are at the least people who they share more with than the internet at large. re:"I want to use Facebook like a rolodex. Keep all potential contacts in one place and be able to look them up and call them...", I would never trust a 3rd party to be my master database (for a variety of reasons). If my friends or family want to get in touch with me (and they somehow lost my number and email an IM), they can visit my eponymous web page.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Robert, I'm not forcing you to do anything. You're allowed to use your social network any way you want it. It was my perception from the beginning that this is how Facebook wanted it, and this was something I understood personally for my own purposes. I'm not sure why you didn't point out my inaccurate statement earlier.
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: please show me where Facebook says I should only add people I actually have met face-to-face to my social graph.
- Robert Scoble
Like I said twice prior in this conversation and many times elsewhere, if people want to add me, they can. They're doing so because they're using Facebook in their own way. I have a choice whether to accept or reject that friend invitation. That's how I'm using Facebook. It would be completely wrong for me to make a judgment on how you are supposed to use the site, but it was always my understanding that this was the premise for Facebook's restrictions.
- Tamar Weinberg
In fact, I just went and looked just to make sure. It just shows me people who want to be my friend and asks me to do one of two things: confirm or ignore. If I confirm then it asks me what kind of list I'd like to put them on and whether I want to give them full access or limited access. Who the hell made up what you are saying that there's "rules" to who should be a friend or not on Facebook? Who put YOU in charge?
- Robert Scoble
Tamar: well, again, I'm telling you you are wrong. There never has been any "rules" on who should be a friend or not. Wonderful. Now we are starting to understand each other. The only "friend definition" in Facebook that you should put on other people is that they are people you want on your social graph. DO NOT try to tell me a friend online is anything different than that.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, stop asking me to show you proof for something I said I have been "observing." You clearly know Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg and you already made a statement saying that they say I am wrong. I'm not going to argue on this point if it's wrong. However, you should have said I was wrong earlier.
- Tamar Weinberg
Sid: you're funny. You can always hide this if you want. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Tamar: I've been saying you are wrong to try to put stupid rules on the word "friend" for weeks now.You just weren't listening until I started pointing out that what you were doing is really nasty behavior similar to fundamentalist religious people.
- Robert Scoble
Good. I'm wrong. We've established that. And for the fiftieth time, I never said I was in charge - I said this is how I understood the restriction. Again, you can use the social site as you want to. I personally use it one way. You use it another way. I don't judge people or care how they use the site, but that's how I understood the restriction. I'm not sure how else I can spell this out. Any way I say this, you attack me.
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: you never said you're sorry for telling ME how to use Facebook. Until you do that you are a jerk. Sorry. When you apologize and back off then we can deal again.
- Robert Scoble
...except, for the fifty-first time, Robert, that was how I understood the restriction. Apparently my understanding of the restriction is equivalent to religious fanaticism. Listen, look at it any way you want, but that's completely off base.
- Tamar Weinberg
Where did I tell you how to use Facebook?
- Tamar Weinberg
ok, now to decide whether to read the last 100+ comments or not..
- Zee.
Tamar: where did you get that belief? Back it up with a URL please. Until then you are trying to put YOUR beliefs on me. Knock it off and apologize and admit that you and I see our social graphs differently and that Facebook allows us both to exist peacefully on the same service.
- Robert Scoble
Zee: nothing to see here. Just hide and move on. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Robert, like I said, it's something I've observed when Facebook decided to change the names of friends of mine who have legitimate identities and to terminate accounts of those who didn't have an identity the site approved of. My understanding is that they wanted real people to foster real connections. If that's not enough for you, I'm not sure what is.
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: real people fostering real connections is different than your stupid definition of "friend." You crossed the line and you can't even see what line you crossed. Sigh.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, for the millionth time, I don't care how people use the service. Use it any way you want. If you're going to get worked up over some stupid definition I *personally* hold and then consider me a jerk for adhering to my personal preference, so be it. But hey, I'm not the one who imposed the 5,000 restriction, so take that part up with them. Apparently I was wrong in assuming why such a restriction was in place.
- Tamar Weinberg
personally, until facebook respects the right to alias I will remain away from that site so this isn't an issue for me in the slightest. For others and the ways in which they wish to use the site I can understand that it can actually inhibit the usefulness they could get.
- alphaxion
Tamar: that restriction was in place to retard Facebook's growth and also because of technical limitations -- the site got slow when you had more friends than that because of all the database joins that had to be done.
- Robert Scoble
technically Robert, she didn't tell you how to use Facebook, she just pointed out that statistically, you're quite an anomaly. Of course Zuckerberg and Sandberg will tell you what you want to hear. It makes the noise stop. But, get out your calculator and divide 3000 by 175,000,000. Is it really a priority for Facebook? No. Should it be? Today, of course not. Tomorrow? Who knows.
- Robert Seidman
Tamar: I got mad because you kept repeating this belief of yours and you tried to make me feel bad for using Facebook in a different way than your belief. It's amazing to me that you still do not see what line you crossed and why you pissed me off so much.
- Robert Scoble
Robert: no, you missed that she tried to define friend as somone I am "intimate" with. Or, something close to that. Stay away from telling me who my friends can be. That's over the line.
- Robert Scoble
i havent read every single comment but calling someone a jerk and stupid isn't very nice - facebook has a limit currently - if you don't like it, stay here where you can have a million bazillion friends and share things all ya like, etc. right?
- Allen Stern
Robert, I'm not trying to preach here, and I apologize if you thought I'm trying to make you feel bad. That was DEFINITELY not my intention. I honestly always thought the restriction was in place for the reasons I stated. I obviously was wrong.
- Tamar Weinberg
Allen: we're not talking about the limit. That's not what pissed me off about Tamar's statements (the Facebook limitation is there due to a technical problem with doing too many database joins, not because Mark Zuckerberg thinks you should only have 5,000 people in your social graph). She thinks it's stupid of anyone to have more than a few hundred friends on Facebook if you read her statements (she seems to have now backed away from that statement and belief).
- Robert Scoble
Tamar: OK, now we're getting somewhere. The ONLY way you can define friends online is "someone you want in your social graph." If that's what you now believe I will apologize for going ballistic on you.
- Robert Scoble
I've been on Facebook since April 2004, though, and I do understand the earlier mindset of the users on the service, so it's an interesting dilemma for me. A lot of people see *me* at 1400+ friends as a "friend whore." It's a completely different type of world out there, Robert.
- Tamar Weinberg
Robert, locking me into a corner and asking me to "define friend" and "people you know" and then calling me a jerk for imparting my own opinion onto the subject also "crosses the line," if you will. Should I have ignored you? No, I responded with a personal opinion.
- Tamar Weinberg
Tamar: and, again, anyone who tries to define how you use a service by calling you a "friend whore" is wrong and is a jerk. I won't back down off of that. Who made THEM "queens" of the social graph?
- Robert Scoble
I think this clash of the titans counts as a bit more than a "ripple effect" -- "storm in a teacup" perhaps.. :-)
- Tim Ostler
lets clarify terms - there are "friends" and there's a "social marketing graph"
- Allen Stern
Tamar: I did that because you were setting yourself up as the "friend rule" maker. You were wrong to do that. So are your friends who call you names.
- Robert Scoble
Allen: no. Online there is no difference. There is just ONE social graph I can have. A "friend" (online) is someone I want on that social graph. My reasoning DOES NOT MATTER. Facebook does NOT ask me "are you putting this person on your social graph because you slept with this person, or are you marketing to him/her?" Funny, Plaxo does sort of ask me to categorize people that way, though.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, no, I don't think it's a position of mine to make "friend rules." ;) I'll go back to clarify, though: I thought FB had a restriction about friends, and then you asked about that friendship, and instead of going off with what I thought was FB's perception, I went off with my own. Sorry if you confused the two, but I really was NOT trying to tell you how to use the service. That's definitely not my place.
- Tamar Weinberg
Let's use a simple model from economics: As the number of friend connections increases, the value of each individual friend connection is lower.
- coldbrew
Tamar: good, now that you say that I'm sorry for calling you a jerk.
- Robert Scoble
coldbrew: it's not a zero sum game. You are totally wrong. Adding 5,000 people to my social graph does not make my relationship with @maryamie any different.
- Robert Scoble
I think everyone can agree Facebook has done a *fabulous* job at designing a service millions of people will use regularly even though it has fallen short of some people's expectations/ product implementation preference and questions loom about its revenue potential. Ok, everyone probably can't agree with that either but only because this is the internet :-)
- Robert Seidman
Thank you.
- Tamar Weinberg
It is a matter of discretion. I just got back from a kids bday party where I asked all the adults (~30, all professionals, non- tech related) how many FB friends they had. For everyone it was between 200 and 300. If I see that you will friend almost anyone, I'm likely to view that friend connection as "less special". I'm not sure why you want to make this a binary thing (i.e. friend or not friend) when there are obviously gradations.
- coldbrew
Robert, Facebook does ask you what friend list to put them in (if you have lists). Most people IRL share more with close family and friends than they do to their fans, and many on FB do as well. So online it Does matter.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Logical: yeah, here on friendfeed I use lists too. coldbrew: you're still wrong. Adding more people actually makes EVERYONE more valuable. Why? Because you can connect a wider range of people together. I know a guy on Twitter who runs a supply chain in China. I know another guy in Barcelona who owns a shipping company. If I only had one of those on my social graph I couldn't make much happen. But both together? Much more value for all of us.
- Robert Scoble
coldbrew: I have a list of just my family here on friendfeed. Obviously I treat them differently than I treat you. But the fact that you are on my social graph here does not take ANYTHING away from them. In fact it adds to them.
- Robert Scoble
as much as i hate to push this further as i have work to do, explain how your contacts on twitter help me "much more value for all of us" ?
- Allen Stern
Hmm, I see your point. But, there is still something I can't put my finger on that you seem to be ignoring.
- coldbrew
Allen: because I can get DMs from a much wider range of people than other people can. They might ask me to connect them with you. Or, I can see a wider range of inputs coming into TweetDeck so I can give you better information or tell you news before anyone else can.
- Robert Scoble
coldbrew: I ignore a lot of things here, you gotta focus when you can only type a couple hundred characters at a time. The thing is these are tools and should be as flexible as possible so everyone can use them as they see fit. Why are you all here on friendfeed? Is it because you found some limitation on some other tool? That's why I'm here.
- Robert Scoble
SNN = Scoble News Network
- Allen Stern
I always thought it meant "Stern News Network."
- Robert Scoble
Facebook should quit being tech-smart and human-stupid http://dawnsplan.wordpress.com/2009...
- Dawn
Facebook MUST implement messaging options first. Where are the opt-outs? Spam filters? Priorities.
- Mona Nomura
i wish they would implement groups on facebook. accessing your friends list gave you "family" "friends" "twitter" or whatever, then you could yes, limit access so a boss doesnt see your twitter updates and a complete stranger i occasionally chat to on here doesn't see my flickr list for example..
- Terry O'Fee
Uhhhhh... you can... http://www.allfacebook.com/2009... Privacy Setting Number 1.
- Mona Nomura
Wow - FriendFeed really needs threaded comments - this conversation would be so much easier to follow with that.
- Jesse Stay
@Mona: i suspect FB has their own priorities
- .LAG liked that
Robert, I have to say I'm on your side here (while, with both sides I don't think anyone is a jerk or idiot). The great thing about Facebook, as compared to other networks, is that you *can* use it how you want. I can set my privacy settings so that those I see every day see different things than those that I don't. That's what I love about it. It gives me a way to organized those people I'm associated with. Twitter, MySpace, LinkedIn, and others all don't give that to me.
- Jesse Stay
I don't get any messages from Facebook like I do with say - Tom from Myspace. Groups / events send me messages - and I am not a part of them. WTF is that about? I also get messages from strangers, mass messages, etc. They MUST implement a spam filter and opt-out options. Period.
- Mona Nomura
but your friends list is still grouped into one page. wouldnt it be handy instead of individualy saying "this person has this" "this person has that" then "okay THIS person i'm wary of. they can go in my already pre-defined list" as you go to your friends page, know what i mean? when you check your friends page now its all one friends page
- Terry O'Fee
If you have >5,000 friends then they're not real friends anyway. Facebook is not a place to massage your ego and I hope it never becomes one.
- Bryce Roney
Just add them onto the list as you confirm them...
- Mona Nomura
oh come on bryce... the egos will be fed wherever they go. they're shouldnt be a rule on how to use facebook.
- Terry O'Fee
sorry, saw that bit mona. :P still be cool to have an option where say "really busy, just check my family friends section and off to work"
- Terry O'Fee
mona - TOM! gah the bane of all us past myspace users :P
- Terry O'Fee
Bryce - social networking and 'friends' are relative. It's not up to you to judge and decide what 'real friends' are and aren't.
- Mona Nomura
Well Facebook's de facto mission statement (on their homepage) is "Facebook helps you connect and share with the people in your life." I really don't think that many people would have >5 or >6k "people in [their] life" so their shouldn't be so much pressure on Facebook to raise their limits.
- Bryce Roney
from IM
Again, that depends on individuals and how THEY choose to use a Social Networking site. There are MANY who need more than the 5k cap. I don't see why that should even be an issue. (Aside from spammers) I just want more messaging options.
- Mona Nomura
I want more granular privacy controls on the wall (especially), networks, basic and personal info, and what non-friends can see if I reply to their message.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Agreed. More granular privacy and overall control over your profile, pictures etc. would be nice.
- wiredgnome
Flickr tried to cap your number of comments at 5,000 a few years back but ended up changing it to a 5,000 non-reciprocal contact limit when people freaked out over it.
- Thomas Hawk
I dissapear for twelve hours and you're still going on about this. Forget the 5000, its the fifty you can converse with that matter.
- Richard A.
This copyright issue seems like a much more important matter but I don't see it much talked about here yet: New laws that arrive in New Zealand on 28th February mean anyone *ACCUSED* three times of copyright infringement gets their internet connection disconnected. http://www.geekzone.co.nz/juha... No facebook friends, no internet, nothing.
- jjprojects
to be fair, JJ this convo started long before this news went around, but you're right. it seems a lot of friendfeed is feeding people egos, talking about itself and memes. have a look at the whole bushfires in australia. how many of you on here even knew about it?
- Terry O'Fee
I think the bushfires were headline news in many countries, but yeah, twitter took the lead there, and Duncan Riley did a good job with it everywhere :) Also, just thought I'd try and hijack this thread to bring attention to it. You can banish me now people but I don't care, it needs attention.
- jjprojects
it's more important jj. i agree, in the long run who gives a shit about how many people you can add ??
- Terry O'Fee
I wish SNs had levels of friends/connections built-in (like Facebook's Circle of Friends). When I'm business-networking, I easily pick up 20-100 contacts at any workshop, and I have boxes of 3-ring-binders of contacts, but I don't want those cluttering all of my Facebook. How do I track 20 past & present close friends, 500 friends, 500 high school acquaintances, 1,000 musicians, 2,000 dancers, 2,000 college acquaintances, 50,000 work contacts (including 1,000 people I actually worked with...)?
- Mitchell Tsai
For me, Facebook and LinkedIn are working like white-pages. So many people I once knew are popping out of the woodwork to say hello. Friends, acquaintances, card-playing buddies, high school classmates, clients, work colleagues, professors, etc... If I'm curious about what's happened to them in the past 5-30 years, it's a lot of fun accept their "friend" request & see what they've been doing. :-)
- Mitchell Tsai
the 5000 limit might be ridiculous - but so is anyone with more than 5k friends on facebook
- Peter Efland
I have 300+ FB, 300+ FF, 500+ Twitter Followers, 5000+ LI friends
- Daniel W. Crompton
I'm at 4900 and now having to screen requests. It sucks that my "profile" can't be converted to a "page". It doubly sucks because "pages" don't work even to a usable level on my blackberry. FB doesn't even bother to inform you of this, or even own up to the problem anywhere. What a waste of time and effort.
- Faisal Qureshi
I have approx. 1200 FB friends. I created a fanpage for my small biz. Found that if I became a fan of my own fanpage, then I could keep my 1200 friends updated with what I was doing throughout the day. Even though my fanpage is for my biz, I rarely do any promoting as there is a tab available if they want to shop. I still primarily use my regular FB page to keep in touch, but I know I...
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- Patricia Coats
gimmie my >5K!
- obesiverse
Hacking Twitter (Wired.com) - http://blog.wired.com/busines...
Moses Kpetigo, Deborah Micek, Jesper Lind and 36 other people liked this
Just amazing what can be done with 140 characters.
- David Bisset (sn)
With my luck my washing machine would get more followers than me.
- Keith James Designs
me too Keith :-/
- David Wynn
cool. i want my xbox 360 to tweet
- David
@David - http://duncanmackenzie.net/blog...
- Andrew Terry
I would like to tie in a GPS tracker w/ twitter - many uses right there.
- David Bisset (sn)
Bisset, The Brightkite iPhone app can do that with the 3G.
- coldbrew
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