Bora Zivkovic › Likes

Karen James
Thinking of designing an "I received the first tweet from space' tee shirt with @astro_mike's avatar on it. What do you think?
*rubs hands and cracks knuckles* - Karen James
Education at ScienceOnline2012 -
As I mentioned before, ScienceOnline is a conference that explores the ways the Web changes the way science is communicated, taught and done. As always, there will be a nice track of sessions focusing on the “taught” part. Here they are: Blogging in the undergraduate science classroom (how to maximize the potential of course blogs) [...]
Information, data and technology at ScienceOnline2012 -
ScienceOnline2012 is the conference that explores how the Web is changing the way science is communicated, taught and done. While communicators, being quite communicative by nature, tend to communicate a lot about what they do at our meetings, do not forget the more quiet types, those who make new tools that make it easier for [...]
Mathematics – Algebra and Statistics and more – at ScienceOnline2012 -
In the past years, we would have perhaps one session (and sometimes none) focused on math. But this year, we have a whole track – three discussion sessions and two demos specifically on math, not to count others that touch on math sideways, through computing etc. So if math is your thing, and you decided [...]
ScienceOnline2012 – we have the Keynote Speaker! -
We are very excited to announce that the Keynote speaker for the sixth annual ScienceOnline conference will be the anthropologist and National Geographic Explorer Mireya Mayor (@mireyamayor on Twitter)! Among many accomplishments, Mireya is the author of the wonderful book “Pink Boots and a Machete” which was reviewed at #SciAmBlogs both by me and by [...]
Finally, finally, finally submitted our friendfeed manuscript :-)
Looking forward to it! :) - Berci Mesko, MD
Where did you submit it? - Björn Brembs
Victor Ganata
OK, so it's not really like Facebook at all. But it certainly is a lot more like Friendfeed than Buzz was. #G+
so is everyone jumping ship now, just because it's new and shiny? - Halil
I don't have much to complain about so far over there. I think Mo Kargas called it Friendfeed Mk 2. We'll see if it sticks. - Adrian
Sciam Blogs
From the shadows to the spotlight to the dustbin - the rise and fall of GFAJ-1 -
Jean-Claude Bradley
My talk at SLA on Trust in Science and Open Melting Point Collections -
On June 14 and 15, 2011 I attended the Special Libraries Association conference and made presentations on two panels on the role of trust in science with a case-study of the Open Melting Point collections that Andrew Lang, Antony Williams and I have been assembling and curating. - Jean-Claude Bradley
Sounds like a good audience. - Andrew Lang
Yes there was lots of interest after the session - Jean-Claude Bradley
Sciam Blogs
Arsenic bacteria have changed education that is -
Cameron Neylon
RT @sciam: Arsenic bacteria have changed education that is
Lawrence Souder presented on this at the SLA this week (analyzing Redfield's blog posts and related communication) - links to his screencast and slides through here - Jean-Claude Bradley
Daniel Mietchen
John Wilbanks, "The Fragmentation and Re-Integration of Scholarly Communication" -
John Wilbanks, "The Fragmentation and Re-Integration of Scholarly Communication"
Seen at . Now watched in full - good and engaging as always, but a bit more personal. Integrates very well with the "Science as a wiki/ Github for science" line of thinking (not surprising, as this was in part inspired by earlier talks and blog posts by him) and thus now features prominently in . I have a pictorial summary half-baked but don't have the time to upload all the images and their metadata right now. Will try asap. - Daniel Mietchen
Björn Brembs
Distinct Visual Pathways Mediate Drosophila Larval Light Avoidance and Circadian Clock Entrainment -
Fossil Huntress
Because it was needed: FriendFeed gets the Downfall treatment. - (via Still love this video! @fossilhuntress
Because it was needed: FriendFeed gets the Downfall treatment. - (via Still love this video! @fossilhuntress
Egon Willighagen
Yeah, BMC++ now allows bloggers to be named in the bibliography ->
Even better, they are doing this in response to community feedback. - Bill Hooker
BMC (J Cheminf) had no problem with "Open Babel development team" as an affiliation either on my Confab paper. Right on! - Noel O'Boyle
Steve Koch
Andy Maloney defends his Ph.D. on Wednesday! Here is his chapter on Open Science experiences: User:Andy Maloney/Open Science - OpenWetWare -
Andy Maloney defends his Ph.D. on Wednesday!  Here is his chapter on Open Science experiences: User:Andy Maloney/Open Science - OpenWetWare
It's a huge file (with embedded movies), but you can download his complete dissertation as a PDF from our server: All of this information is on the wiki pages as well. - Steve Koch
Congratatulations, Andy! He passed his exam today, just minor revisions to dissertation required. - Steve Koch
I searched the document for "movie" and checked all figures that came up that way. The first two (1.3 and 1.6) did not display for me, all the rest (1.7, 1.9, 2.7, 2.10, 2.11, 2.13, 2.14, 4.2) went fine. - Daniel Mietchen
I also read the "open science" chapter and wish every dissertation would contain such a chapter with reflections about the way in which the research was performed _and communicated_. - Daniel Mietchen
Jonathan Eisen
Holy cow: my recent #plosone paper has more than 20,000 views in 1 week
What was that comment from someone "members of the public aren't interested in the actual articles..."? I guess a lot of scientists read the Economist maybe?</sarcasm> - Cameron Neylon
Probably the /. effect... - Egon Willighagen
@Egon - What's a /. effect? - joergkurtwegner
Mr. Gunn
ScienceOnline2011 – interview with Jason Priem | A Blog Around The Clock -
Bill Hooker
RRResearch: Response from Drs. McDermott and Rosen about their arsenic paper -
Of course. If it's not peer reviewed it's no good, because peer review is a magic bullet that kills all badness. Or maybe there's a certain brand of stuffed-shirt that likes to sneer at teh internets so as to avoid admitting that they cribbed most of their arguments. - Bill Hooker from Bookmarklet
A comment on her blog: "Larry Moran said... Let's not forget that this sorry incident began with a press conference where the senior author made statements that so not seem to be supported by the evidence in the "peer-reviewed" paper. Press conferences are not equivalent to publication in the peer-reviewed scientific literature but they can't be ignored. It didn't take long for several... more... - Steve Koch
Very interesting that Dr. McDermott's CV highlights his appearances on TV, radio, and in newspapers. And highlighted above his "peer-reviewed" publications. Lord knows that TV, radio, and newspaper are quite different from and more reliable than the "chat room environments" on these here internets. - Steve Koch
At least the high level discussion on the blogosphere is accessible to everyone for consideration - our library does not even carry BioEssays :) - Jean-Claude Bradley
Touche, Steve! - Bill Hooker
Björn Brembs
Do fruit flies dream of electric bananas? -
Author(s): Brembs, B. Publication year: 2011 Journal / Book title: Scientist Access all results for your search in Scopus - Björn Brembs
Jonathan Eisen
The story behind the story of my new #PLoSOne paper on "Stalking the fourth domain of life" #metagenomics #fb -
The story behind the story of my new #PLoSOne paper on "Stalking the fourth domain of life" #metagenomics #fb
I enjoyed reading that. I probably would never have picked up the paper itself and read it through, which would have been my loss as this is some neat science. For my money, a blog post is much, much better than a press release! - Bill Hooker
Also -- a link to the backstory in the paper comments wouldn't go amiss. - Bill Hooker
Paper over my head, but blog post great. Also, Carl Zimmer's post about it is wonderful. Awesome. - Bora Zivkovic
Fascinating. Love the blog post. Also, I was able to follow the abstract / intro / conclusions in the paper pretty well, seems very well written and thoughtful. @Bill I posted a link to the blog in the comments for you (and me, and everyone). - Steve Koch
Bill - added a link to the backstory in the paper comments ... - Jonathan Eisen
Sciam Blogs
Heather Piwowar
Is just for figures that would otherwise go unpublished? Or also for figure=nanopublication preprints.... Nature Precedings for just figures? Webpage says former, I'm thinking of it as the latter. Pros/cons?
For example, I'd like to add my prelim data reuse figures to figshare, though I plan to publish them someday. - Heather Piwowar
@figshare Right now the emphasis on "would otherwise go unpublished" makes me hesitate. mybe change to "might otherwise go unpublished"? And add another of your cool graphics about figures also being available before publication, and in an easy to re-find location, to demonstrate the multiple use cases? - Heather Piwowar
Would the probably want to add a "**Check with your intended journal that figure preprint publication is permitted before article submission" or something - Heather Piwowar
Good questions Heather, I'll be interested to hear what the figshare folks think. - Bill Hooker
Heather, thank you so much. I have been focussed so much on getting the server set up right that I havent updated these things. Definitely figure=nanopublication. I will get it changed to "might otherwise go unpublished too". I was also looking to contact many of the big name journals to see what their view on this would be with regard to preprint publication. I'm hoping to have the... more... - science3point0
Cool! afaik for figure preprints, based on investigations with respect to Open Notebook Science, Nature is fine with prior publication on the web, BMC and PLoS no prob, Science may not be, Medical journals almost for sure are not fine with it. RoMEO info may apply, though not sure it is geared for whether preprint archiving can happen PRIOR to submission. Here;s a bit of info I gathered in 2007 Active ONS practitioners no doubt know more.... - Heather Piwowar
fwiw it may be a good thing you went with handles rather than dois in this regard, since DOIs are not to be used for things (well, articles anyway) that are going to be "published" in the future (at which point they may get their own DOIs, as figures do at PLoS). See Nature Precedings distinction: - Heather Piwowar
An obvious calculated, well researched and insightful move on our behalf :) - science3point0
Interesting thread, and it would be great if this takes off as a nanopublication scheme. Can I just comment/ask if this is an issue with data (datacite) v article (crossref) DOIs, as I thought efforts were being made trying to draw a distinction between to two? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would have assumed that publishers shouldn't have problems with "raw data" (hopefully... more... - Scott Edmunds
Scott, I don't think the DOI vs handle issue applies to raw data, since afaik journals don't usually give supplementary information DOIs. Some do sometimes give figures dois though, as in :) - Heather Piwowar
Some non-OA publishers do have problems with it and some don't. Nature, for example, allows preprints (=text AND figures) to be posted in Nature Precedings prior to publication, so I'm guessing they don't have a problem with it. Science, Cell, and medical journals do consider posting on the web "prior publication" last I heard and so don't allow it before submission. - Heather Piwowar
I would check with Nature rather than assume. They might be fine with something in Precedings but not OK with anyone else's silo. They are all about The Brand, after all. - Bill Hooker
Thanks for your advice. We are hoping to make a lot of our institutional data available in this way (as well as things such as issuing DOIs to supplementary data attached to our upcoming journal), and it sounds like raw data should be fine, but it may be a little more of a grey area if it's processed into figures. To be safe it sounds like a good idea for us to clarify these things a bit more with some of the relevant (Brand) journals. - Scott Edmunds
At F1000 Posters, I have spent a lot of time talking with the various journals and publishers for their response to the prior publication question and we have listed their responses at As was suggested earlier in this feed, we recommend potential depositors to check the list first prior to deposition - Rebecca :awrence
This is a very helpful list, thanks Rebecca. - Heather Piwowar
Cameron Neylon
This is an interesting point from Kent Anderson at The Scholarly Kitchen... -
"Maybe one strength we’ve been overlooking is that traditional peer-review forces smart people to collaborate. Post-publication review doesn’t seem positioned to harness this advantage." - Cameron Neylon from Bookmarklet
The article just goes to show yet again (as if anybody needed yet more evidence) the guy has no idea what scientific publishing is all about: "Perhaps the success of traditional peer-review is only partially about rigor or a “high bar,” with a good portion of the value emanating from a tight collaborative process for those papers deemed of sufficient interest to undergo collaborative... more... - Björn Brembs
@Cameron: I've never thought post-publication review would replace traditional peer-review - what did you find interesting about the point you quoted? - Björn Brembs
Well I think post publication peer review has to replace traditional peer review or we may as well give up. The quote was an interesting point to me about a potential barrier to this that might be worth looking at overcoming. - Cameron Neylon
And the other point I'd make is that many (indeed most) scientists believe that peer review does provide rigor and "high bars". A survey said so.... - Cameron Neylon
Do you have a link for the survey? Methinks the devil might lie in the formulation of the question there :-) But why replace or give up? It is much rarer that I voluntarily read a paper so thoroughly as when I'm assigned to review it. I imagine that too many papers would go down completely unread without traditional peer-review, which could've become blockbusters if only someone had been forced to fight their way through them... - Björn Brembs
But equally I think too much time is spent doing peer review that could have been spent doing blockbuster work :-) Don't have a link to hand but there are lots of surveys that show researchers support for peer review based on their belief that it checks for technical correctness and helps them decide what to read. Actually its just rare that I read a paper these days to be honest.... - Cameron Neylon
Oh, so the surveys don't say that people think peer-review what should go into which journal? I'm a little confused: it reads like they say what I say: peer-review helps making manuscripts better. Anyway, some blockbuster work may not be recognizable as such before peer-review? Personally, peer-review is good for me for two reasons: 1. My publications have mostly gotten better in my eyes which makes me feel more comfortable. 2. Like journal club it forces me to read papers more critically than usual. - Björn Brembs
Not sure if that was shared here before, but here's a Jeff Shrager's paper assessing how various levels of pre-publication review might affect the rate of scientific progress - Quote from discussion: "Too strict of a review requirement (represented here by the HMSDCALE parameter) can prevent sharing of valid treatments, but too weak of a requirement drowns good results in a sea of bad treatments." - Pawel Szczesny
Not clear without reading the paper (which I don't have time to do now) -- what does he mean by "strict"? Are we talking Glamor Mag version of strict (= "predicted impact" nonsense), or PLoS ONE version of strict (= scientific rigor)? - Bill Hooker
OK, I skimmed the Methods -- "strict" means publish only if patient improves monotonically over sequential treatments. I think the model is too simple to support, well, anything at all. - Bill Hooker
Will try again: I don't have the right references to hand and don't have time to check them today (I generally discount all surveys now) but basically if you ask researchers: "Does peer review guarantee accuracy" you get strong support (dissenters mostly quibbling about "guarantee"), "Is peer review good at determining importance", weak but generally majority support, much stronger... more... - Cameron Neylon
But Bjoern, the problem with your "it works for me argument" is that there is an absolute 1to1 correspondence with the most widely deployed arguments for homeopathy, reiki, religion....whatever...we need to do better and have some _real_ evidence for this. - Cameron Neylon
I agree, Cameron, that I may be an exception, of course! No disagreement from me there! - Björn Brembs
You might just run into problems quantifying 'my paper got better', but technical problems are there to be solved :-) - Björn Brembs
well, here's my questions: how do "smart people" cooperate unless there is a certain promise of some journal brand glitter for their working hours spent on peer review? which recognition mechanisms and incentives would do the trick in post-publication peer review? - Claudia Koltzenburg
Claudia, that's exactly the question that I thought was interesting. What kinds of motivation are there for people to collaborate around improving papers that aren't their own or doesn't already fit into some system they understand. - Cameron Neylon
Björn, the problem is not that your an exception, you're close to average but lots of anecdotes from people who participate and use a system is not evidence that the system works. Not for peer review and not for homeopathy. I submit that it is plausible that exactly the same kind of self delusion could be at work. That needs to be disproved, which is hard. Matt, that's an excellent... more... - Cameron Neylon
Reviewers constantly complain that we're not British, so now most of manuscripts from my department are sent to a professional editor, which corrects grammar, clarifies structure and adds suggestions on scientific aspects of a paper. It costs $500, takes two days and is surprisingly close to changes I make when sending a manuscript for typical academic review. I wonder if that's the main thing that would come out of mining BMC (manuscripts have improved readability). - Pawel Szczesny
Sorry, you're absolutely right, Cameron. What I didn't spell out was that I wasn't claiming that I might be the exception that I felt peer-review was worthwhile. I meant I was the exception where peer-review objectively excluded alternative explanations: in contrast to 'my symptoms went away', if peer-review suggests experiments which exclude alternative explanations for our phenomena,... more... - Björn Brembs
I'm not entirely sure you can exclude a control treatment. Or at least a different treatment eg sending the paper out for general review as a preprint could have identified the same benefit. But I'll accept that if the control were pre-pub review vs no review this is a single positive outcome identified. Now is that worth the $2B that we spend? I'll also position it against an anecdote of my own where making a referee happy made the paper harder to read... :-) - Cameron Neylon
That's exactly what I meant: I might be an exception, or at least these effects might be drowned out by less positive effects of peer-review. Sorry for not being clearer - actually, your review helped me be clearer :-) Does that count as evidence? :-) - Björn Brembs
But it was post publication! :-) - Cameron Neylon "editing" in wiki format open peer review - Claudia Koltzenburg
Heather Piwowar
Friendfeed feels friendly. Twitter doesn't.
I've noticed that, now that I'm back on Twitter (more or less--there's still very little I want to say that seems to work better at 140 characters there than at 140 words here). - walt crawford
Yeah. I like Twitter, I like its wide scope and wide network. But it is not Friendfeed. Long live Friendfeed! sigh, oh yeah. - Heather Piwowar
sssh, don't tell everyone, they'll all just come to friendfeed and ruin it. repeat after me "I keep getting a horrible computer virus from friendfeed, avoid friendfeed at all costs" - Blake
No need for that, Blake. If a few discussions about metadata and research metrics don't scare them off, they probably belong! - Mr. Gunn
Carl Boettiger
Is there any aggregation for Open lab notebooks? #scio11 demonstrated rather awesome aggregation of science blogs through things like researchblogging and scienceseeker, which help both verify content and discovery. Seeing Martin's open notebook yesterday reminded me that it's much harder to discover relevant open lab notebooks
Raises an interesting question. Is the point to enable people to find notebooks or to help them to find solution to their problems (which might be in a notebook)? Which is the more important to tackle? - Cameron Neylon
I'd say finding the notebook. Tackling the finding answers part is probably best addressed by better linking notebook data into central data repositories, the way JC does with chemspider, wikipedia etc. Lots of reasons why finding the notebook itself would be useful though, and I think that would be the task of an aggregator. Just the way blog aggregators help discover/create community,... more... - Carl Boettiger
Data find data, right? I think you could find open notebooks of interest by searching for specific information, but you'd be less likely to find the solution to your problem by looking for an open notebook in what seems like the right area of research. So I'd say that what matters most is that the content of the notebook be findable, like J-CB's making sure Google indexes his stuff.... more... - Bill Hooker
Hi Carl, I could definitely help get this going. I think a central aggregation point is a good idea because of the small nature but and its a good way to raise awareness for the community. Would we be able to just take the feeds from peoples note books though? Is there not a problem in that all notebooks are not completely open ie. CC0? - science3point0
For a start, would it be possible to mimic researchblogging's certification system, where someone registers their notebook as open (i.e. under one of the ONS-claims: and then gets a bit of code to add to their notebook that would display the icon link entries to the central aggregator where they could be discovered? - Carl Boettiger
Carl, why a 'code'? After claiming the blog, RSS feed of ONS category is enough. RB system is unnecessarily complex. - Pawel Szczesny from iPhone
I think I'm with Bill on this. I can't actually see the usecase where you specifically want a notebook. Now if it turns out that such an aggregate provides a better search subtrate for finding info than websearch then I'd be convinced so would be good to see the experiment done... - Cameron Neylon
Cameron, good point -- I didn't mean to imply that finding a notebook is more important than finding the data/answers, I think they are quiet independent things. The usecase for finding the notebook isn't to answer a question about the science, but to answer a question about the notebook itself. There are lots: perhaps the most important being: how do I keep a notebook so that it links... more... - Carl Boettiger
I think I'm with the majority here. ONS will take over fairly soon, since it's the easiest way to comply with need for open date, etc. So, it will be a bittersweet ending to the time where it was possible to list all the ONS out there. :( :) (That's bittersweet) I can't imagine many people "following" lab notebooks, except for like 0.1% of collaborators who do instead of should care.... more... - Steve Koch
Bill Hooker
Publish and perish: why the current publication and review model is killing research and wasting your money -
tldr (yet) but thought folks around here might be interested - Bill Hooker from Bookmarklet
Fabio Casati is doing some interesting stuff... - Cameron Neylon
"Highly Inefficient Publishing Process. This model is incredibly inefficient under every perspective, and results in a colossal waste of public funding, and forces researchers worldwide to waste countless hours that could be devoted to better research (or to have fun with family and friends). It is a system deeply rooted in the past, oblivious to the advent of the Web and related new... more... - Daniel Mietchen
It is interesting that the ACM Digital Library entry ( for this article has a broken DOI number and requires an account for full text access. The authors note that: "this is preliminary work (version 1.0, or rather 0.9). We release it anyway according to the concepts proposed in this document." This is a nice illustration of the point that the ACM Digital Library does not handle versioning well. - Don Pellegrino
Pawel Szczesny
I wish we all moved to S3.0 - using #FF becomes frustrating.
Do you think it is ready? To me, it still lacks the compactness that a FF page has... and the ease in making comments... - Egon Willighagen
Layout is a matter of CSS (I think we could convince Mark to at least change it if not to make it customizable for users), inline comments are working fine (although there's no cool AJAXy thing that promotes comments in realtime). The real issue is that activity is relatively small, so I keep coming back to FF. I think S3.0 has a potential to grow beyond FF and become an online _working_ space in addition to aggregator. But that's not going to happen if people are elsewhere. - Pawel Szczesny
I thought it only aggregated blog posts. Does / can it aggregate other streams? - Rajarshi Guha
It works out of the box for Twitter, Flickr, Youtube and some other services. Not sure about other stuff, such as generic RSS (generic RSS works for groups, so probably I cannot find some options). If you look at Buddypress roadmap (used at S3.0) the future looks even more promising. - Pawel Szczesny
The main thing I complain about S3.0 in terms of usability is speed (or rather lack of it). - Pawel Szczesny
Surprisingly, I 'liked' this idea :) I agree with Pawel in terms of activity. If everyone used S3.0 in the same way they use friendfeed it would be a lot more functional. I agree that ff is better in some respects, but I still think that S3.0 offers you a lot more control and way more options, so it can be an online_working_space. FF is all talk. S3.0 is all action. You can currently... more... - science3point0
Mark, thanks for the update. Given the meme "move away from things you cannot control" spreads across this community (Neil's case comes to mind immediately) I hope it's finally the time to reconsider S3.0 as a platform of choice, given we could contribute to and influence the development in one way or another. - Pawel Szczesny
Speaking from one of the "overlap communities," the disadvantage is that you won't have overlap communities--e.g., the librarians who are somewhat interested in science matters and have scientist acquaintances. Maybe that's a good thing; maybe it's not. I've learned a lot from the overlap. - walt crawford
Mark and me just created a Google Group "Wordpress for Scientists". This group is about many things, but why not also discuss how we can improve BuddyPress (the social networking tool built on top of Wordpress) to make it better for scientists? - Martin Fenner
Good having this discussion, especially when people start leaving FF. - joergkurtwegner
I agree with much of the above. I'm ready to move to S3.0 if it came a little closer to FF... - Björn Brembs
The S3.0 page says you are supposed to sync your feeds "only if they contain scientific content". I don't even know what that means. - Bill Hooker
Also, further to Walt's comment -- I'm not interested in a FF replacement that feels to non-scientists as though they are not welcome. I don't care whether it's rational or not, if I hear from, e.g., library colleagues that they wouldn't join a site called "science three point oh", then I'm not going there either. We've seen enough "Facebook for scientists" attempts; I thought we'd mostly agreed that that is a guarantee of failure. - Bill Hooker
what is S3.0? - Iphigenie
Bill, Walt, I hoped librarians, geeks, bloggers and whoever is here would move as well. If you don't like the branding, I think it's not an issue to setup ;). I would rather have all people move instead of leave, so let's discuss S3.0 or whatever else might be build before the community disassembles itself (if you haven't noticed, there was issue with comments yesterday and today search didn't work again). - Pawel Szczesny
Not to put pressure on Mark: if you agree on having "unbranded" (non-science-whatever) site, I have some spare space on one of a dozen hosting plans I bought and potentially I could setup a mirror with a bit of help. - Pawel Szczesny
The "branding" issue can be overcome in various ways -- if we could get core members to use the site, communities might follow, and you could always point alternative names (URLs) to the same domain and alter the front page branding. I do think it's a big deal though. I'd also really like the ajaxy thing that promotes active threads, and I'd like a formatting option that took out all... more... - Bill Hooker
And while I'm trying to offer solutions instead of just whine about problems -- Mark, is there any need for funding? E.g. would it be useful to you to be able to hire some developer time? I am skint as always but I could chip in a bit. - Bill Hooker
See this and add your comments and wishes. Let's try to keep this thread alive for long enough so everybody would drop in, say hello and express their opinion. - Pawel Szczesny
Should we start a gap analysis on Google spreadsheets? What do people want and what are technical solutions? I think hosting is our smallest problem, but more if we as a crowd are willingly to make it happen, together. Whatever we are after, I would hope not anyone is trying to lift this alone, we have to share workload. - joergkurtwegner
I think the Google Doc suggestion sounds very productive, joergkurtwegner! - Björn Brembs
Hi everyone, sorry having a busy weekend. I'll happily set up an unbranded mirror. If people dont want to add their comments because it seems like a facebook for scientists, or that it has the wrong name then thats up to them. I'm sure everybody knows by now that S3.0 isnt set up to make money. Some dev time would be good but I wouldnt want to take donations which may give people the... more... - science3point0
I think this latest comment clarifies things: Indeed, S3.0 *is* intended to be narrow, thus the "knitting pattern" slap. Which is just fine. I wouldn't be on S3.0, and frankly wouldn't feel welcome there. So some of my crossover interaction with scientists would cease, if they stop using FF, which might be a good thing, or not. Pawel, I think your hope is directly contradictory to science3point0's aim. I'll stick with FF. - walt crawford
Ok, so we now have the ability to add any rss feeds you wish :) See: I'll keep working to give everyone what they want. Pawel, the ff alternative for all general subjects is now very easy to do. Let me know if you want to go ahead with this etc on the etherpad :) Thanks a lot, Mark. - science3point0
I think both Walt and Mark are right, and I don't think any slaps were intended. I agree with Walt that you can't approach the value FriendFeed created if you try to define it ahead of time. I'm pretty sure I didn't know I was in love with library scientists when I joined FF. I would hate if S30 excluded or scared away a subgroup that I do or would interact with. On the other hand, you... more... - Steve Koch
With lots and lots of money, I would want to buy FF and it's entire community. Then I would want to add in features like S30 has, and, more importantly, have direct communication with the developer(s) (Mark) to tirelessly add and fix features as we need them. I differ from Mark in that I'd want to invite the entire planet. People can be noisy talking about both science and knitting.... more... - Steve Koch
I have to say that "knitting pattern" comment smacks of a rather different attitude than the one I see when Mark is working his ass off for nothing, soliciting feedback and acting on it in a concrete fashion, to create a valuable resource for the open science community. Since actions speak louder than words I'm going with the benefit of the doubt and assuming something got lost in translation there. - Bill Hooker
I also think Steve has the right idea -- loosen the restrictions and watch who turns up. It's not likely that knitters will take over the site, unless there is a real connection between open science and knitting -- in which case we all benefit. If, as seems likely, the initial core community is drawn from FF Life Scientists and related rooms, then I'd expect the tenor of the place to continue much as it is -- so long as everyone feels welcome. - Bill Hooker
Mark, thanks! I think Steve noticed an important point - real FF replacement that would attract large (well, not that large, a few thousands) amount of people is going to create a major headache of maintaining the site. And I don't think we can effectively share the workload and I don't want to put that on a single person (unless paid, but that's not going to work either, at least not yet). Obviously I wanted the cake and to eat it too, but I don't have resources to build and maintain a real FF-replacement. - Pawel Szczesny
I've added my immediate desires to the etherpad. Would of course most like FF itself to grow rather than wither, though. Buying FF seems unrealistic (anybody here BBF with B. Gates?), but getting FB to donate the code to a group of scientists who would then apply for an international, collaborative grant with all the FF code as 'preliminary data' seems more realistic, albeit also rather... more... - Björn Brembs
That was exactly what I was just writing, Bjoern. If only resources are the issue, we should apply for them. I think we could get a solid representation of 6-10 countries, which might be enough. - Pawel Szczesny
However, if we can get funding, I would rather see super S3.0-FF combo instead of another FF - things like Etherpad, group wikis, etc. are great addition. - Pawel Szczesny
I agree that any new site should of course develop new functionality beyond keeping the tried and tested ones. This would clearly include cooperative writing, easy referencing (think, e.g., Mendeley functionality), data display (e.g., MatLab or R functionality) and so on. See our rejected grant here: - Björn Brembs
Great, let's push it then. Anybody interested in participating in such grant? Mark, what's your opinion? I've already sent an email to my contact on EU funding to see if we fit anywhere within existing programs. - Pawel Szczesny
Hi everyone, this is brilliant. Firstl, I would like to apologise to all of those who took offence to the knitting comment I think something was lost in translation. I also love librarians and there are a lot of them on S3.0, none more prominently than one of our top bloggers Beth Brown. It is a difficult one to explain so I'll try not to mess it up again. S3.0 has a lot of the... more... - science3point0
Something to reconcile science and knitting: - really worth the time! - Daniel Mietchen
So Pawel's up for a grant and so am I, despite my prior experience. Who else? - Björn Brembs
Im happy to help in any way I can too Bjoern. - science3point0
Came across this yesterday...wonder whether it might help? - Cameron Neylon
Another one for submeta? ( - Bill Hooker
I think we have two options - small directed grant for setting the site and something much bigger which would also cover outreach, maintenance and what not. Not sure what's your opinion, but I would opt for both: applying for small grant to Submeta/OSI (any other options?) which we could later use as "preliminary data" for something bigger (let's say EU international grant). I don't... more... - Pawel Szczesny
Marius, Convore has the same issue as FriendFeed - we have no control over it. Even if it's working (so far), there's no guarantee that's going to be true in the future. - Pawel Szczesny
I am interested in supporting grants, on the other hand am I an industry person and I guess we all know that I do not think I can make this fly when asking for additional internal company funding. Second, I personally would be in favor of creating a not-for-profit organization with all consequences. Then, third, we put a treasurer in-place and go for money fishing via 'PayPal,... more... - joergkurtwegner
@Mark - Can we talk about this on Saturday, the 12th in London? Anyone else around? - joergkurtwegner
Marius, to continue your metaphor, there are cases when driving a car is better than using public transportation. It might be that most of you don't need a car. Given very little interest in collaboration on a grant for FF-like platform, I would assume it's even true. But as for me, I would rather invest time in a service I can ask somebody to add a feature for me (let's say generic RSS feeds) and have it available reasonably fast (see Mark's responses above). - Pawel Szczesny
Joerg, that's why I thought about applying for a bigger grant as well - substantial amount of money could be then devoted to maintenance. But non-profit sounds fine as well. - Pawel Szczesny
Marius, one more thing - if the consensus is to move to Convore (which is likely given the answers so far), I won't argue with that. Personally however, I won't be an early adopter :). - Pawel Szczesny
OK, OK, I registered... I won't complain about missing features (compared to FF) but settings really made be laugh :) "Email me when: Someone mentions my name (not yet implemented) I've missed a week of messages (not yet implemented)" Let's see how it develops. - Pawel Szczesny
Joined convore, just to see what happens there. I really like jkw's idea for a nonprofit, since seed money could carry it through to the point where the userbase (ads, fees) would be enough to support it indefinitely. I'm assuming here that it would not cost a huge amount to set up or maintain -- e.g. approximately one salary plus ?? for bandwidth/hosting/etc. Anyone have any better guesses as to actual numbers? - Bill Hooker
When considering web platforms, how about StatusNet? It is open source and supports true realtime updates through Orbited The best feature of Friendfeed is the conversational aspect, the import options are only to get things started. Also users with less specialized interest could subscribe to people on S3.0 without having to create a new account. - Mike Chelen
Im happy to go with any platform depending on whether we have somebody in the group who is well versed in operating it. With regards to @bills question, I think the main thing to cover would be hosting and then any extra funding we can get for dev/outreach would be a bonus. - science3point0
Perhaps we've already discussed this and tabled it because we didn't have the developer talent available, but if we want all the friendfeed features, why don't we just use the friendfeed framework: The two dealbreakers for me are site slowness and lack of useful discussion features like those we have here. A system built on that, running... more... - Mr. Gunn
science3point0: Would it be helpful for someone to setup a free hosted account through or even a self-hosted instance? Either should be possible, though realtime plugins might require additional work. - Mike Chelen
Mr. Gunn: How about integrating Tornado with WordPress or StatusNet? There would probably be other users that would also like to use those combinations of services and might get involved. - Mike Chelen
Are we missing the obvious? One of us just make a billion dollars and fund this stuff? Begin - Steve Koch
Mickey Kosloff
In Person: Falling Off the Ladder: How Not to Succeed in Academia - Science Careers -
Wow! Painfully honest. Must-read for every PhD candidate! Never read anything like this... - Björn Brembs
My oh my. What a fascinating read. And not at all encouraging for one in very early stages of building some sort of a post-PhD career. - Gudmundur Thorisson
"This just does not happen in the male-oriented world of science in which, traditionally, dogs are keen to dine on dogs rather than share the bone between them, so to speak." ... not all male are like that... perhaps at the upper end of science they are... - Egon Willighagen
"Every scientist needs someone in a position of power who has faith in his or her abilities, to provide advice and do a bit of trumpet-blowing on his or her behalf." ... that's what I can relate to most... those do not have to be your supervisor, but you need one anyway, because there is no form to ask for some boon, it's just grabbing what is left over... someone passing some left overs is what keeps you going. - Egon Willighagen
I guess this is also why asking for some left-overs with others is rewarding... yeah, don't be afraid to ask that co-authorship... (never done that myself, but it is more common, though not openly, and I very much regret I rejected a direct co-author invite a few years ago) - Egon Willighagen
I don't understand - how one can be smart enough to become scientists and still believe to be "hard-wired"? Being successful in any area requires work on one's personality as well (for example becoming comfortable with talking to people) - and it's not "a rocket science". Sorry for harsh words, but this made me angry - I thought scientists are smarter than FoxNews audience. - Pawel Szczesny
@Pawel... it's where the balance is... right now you can get pretty far by sucking up and being with the right people, rather than being smart yourself, while at the same time these smart people fail because they are not good at that... is that what we want? I certainly don't... but it is indeed the current game play... - Egon Willighagen
Egon, I absolutely agree - current system is wrong on many levels. But we know the rules and we decide to play along or not (and that choice is a completely different story from what was written in this piece). Blaming failure on "hard-wiring" is like saying you're not "hardwired" to be good at World of Warcraft, because you tried it once without reading the manual and you didn't scored high. - Pawel Szczesny
I think that there is more than one way to succeed in science these days, and that there is no "one true path". However, and this is where this blog post comes in, there are also more than one way to fail, and in some cases you might not have full control over your path. - Mickey Kosloff
It is unfortunate that in many disciplines it's much harder to succeed nowadays based on science alone. Some excellent scientists are drawn to science *because* of their less-than-outstanding people skills and much later in their career find themselves disadvantaged by this. - Mickey Kosloff
I have to agree with Pawel. While unfortunate, the author had a pretty good run - tenured position etc. While women certainly have it harder in the sciences, complaining that you didn't do the networking because you didn't have the confidence is not a valid excuse. And to a large extent, networking is pretty core to any position of authority (and I consider tenure track profs to be in positions of authority) - Rajarshi Guha
The thing is, she makes out that she failed somehow. But she didn't. The system failed. There should be a place for people who want a normal life. - Noel O'Boyle
Pawel, Rajarshi -- I don't exactly disagree, but I think you are overlooking something crucial. You are clearly aware of the central role of networking, and perhaps you have always known that -- but for many of us (geeky types), it's an alien concept. It took me 20 years to figure it out, to the feeble extent that I *have* figured it out, and nowhere in any of my formal education was... more... - Bill Hooker
Bill, I see your point. Personally, I never thought I'd be able to talk in front of a group of people and I was painfully shy when I came to the US to start grad school. (I was quaking at my first GRC!) I suppose I was lucky that my advisor encouraged conference posters/talks. But from what I understood - the author of that article also attended conferences. But once you're at a... more... - Rajarshi Guha
I think successful social/networking skills also vary depending on your profession and type of job - successful skills in one profession don't always work well in other fields. There's also in-person versus other environments (email, phone, etc.) - Elizabeth Brown
Come to think of it, I've missed something too. It's not just that one is expected to absorb by osmosis the importance of interpersonal politics (and the skills to navigate those treacherous waters!). Equally bad, if not worse, is the Big Fat Lie Of Science -- that it's a meritocracy. We intuitively expect things to work that way, and from day one of grad school we're fed the Lie, that... more... - Bill Hooker
+1 for Bill's last comment. Science today is so competitive that, between getting your PhD and getting tenure (and often after), there's not a lot of room for mistakes along the way. Sometimes even if you make no mistakes bad luck is enough to derail you. I've seen enough good/potentially good scientists lose their way to realize it's not always about being smart and working hard (and networking well). - Mickey Kosloff
But what (that is worth doing) isn't competitive? - Rajarshi Guha
The point in science is that doing 'good' and 'exciting' science is (by and large) necessary but not (and this is exactly where Bill is right) sufficient for getting a job. In addition to the great results that others are interested in, there's a bunch of hard to control factors which, for most people, are best summarized as luck, circumstance or chance. As the saying goes, luck is a... more... - Björn Brembs
@Rajarshi: all those things that are co-operative instead. - Bill Hooker
Surely I agree about broken system which indeed requires quite a lot of other things than quality science. To come where we are everybody here needed to overcome some issues along the way (I have 20 years of experience of working on social skills/personality whatever you name it). That often wasn't necessarily a conscious effort but it doesn't matter. But I would expect that somebody with such experience as author (she was not a fresh PhD) would figure out that there's not such thing as "Nobel gene". - Pawel Szczesny
Yes, there's luck, fake meritocracy, broken system which doesn't suit women very much (although at my host institution at Polish Academy of Sciences ratio between women and men is 4:1), networking, area of competence, country of origin (I've tried to find PhD position before Poland joined EU - lots of fun, I tell you) and many other factors we can or cannot influence. But if somebody... more... - Pawel Szczesny
Heather Piwowar
Where do you point to for explanation of why data is most appropriately released under CC0 instead of CC-BY?
This looks like a good start: Others? - Heather Piwowar
Especially interested in blurbs that discuss why attribution should be part of community norm rather than licensing term. - Heather Piwowar
Some ideas (mostly from David Wiley) here:, - Bill Hooker
Heather raises a good question--and, Bill, neither of those posts seems to object to CC-BY. Assuming that remixes included credits for sources of data, why would CC-BY be objectionable? (If you interpret it, for data, not to require a credit for each and every item when used.) Then again: In the U.S., at least, true "data"--facts--are not copyrightable. - walt crawford
No time to find at moment but there is a john wilbanks piece at nature precedings which is my main touchstone piece. I should probably write something on this - Cameron Neylon from Android
Couldn't find a relevant bit on Nature Precedings, but did find this relevant blog post by Wilbanks. Great stuff: - Heather Piwowar
Walt, that's true -- the main point of the posts I linked is license incompatibility, which is a reason to avoid CC-BY for data, but not the main one. - Bill Hooker
I guess the only reason I can think of is that a strict interpretation of "BY" might make it impossible to reuse the data properly. Otherwise, is there a reason a researcher wouldn't credit sources? (Not trying to be argumentative here. In fact, if I had useful data sets as such, they'd have CC0, I think.) - walt crawford
Perhaps more important than license incompatibility is the "attribution thicket" effect, cf. patent thickets -- when you pull together multiple sources of data, it can become virtually impossible to attribute them all, especially since each owner gets to define *how* attribution should be effected (that last is, imo, a much overlooked fly in the CC-BY ointment). - Bill Hooker
And that may be reason enough--that attribution is too difficult. Thanks. So: Source of data: The World? - walt crawford
re: source, I am sure that I got the idea from David Wiley. - Bill Hooker
The main arguments are: objects created from data may not be appropriate to a copyright based licence (why share-alike is not ideal). Massive re-use of data could lead to attribution stacking problems (what is the appropriate form of attribution). Other requirements on data (privacy, ethics) may trump licence provisions, effectively ruling out data use in specific areas. And finally.... more... - Cameron Neylon
Very helpful points, Bill, Walt, and Cameron. Thank you. - Heather Piwowar
not to make this shameless self promotion, but this is the follow on from the 4 hour tutorial i did with tom and leigh from talis on the issue, laying out the science commons position and implications of the license toggles: - Kaitlin Thaney
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