Chris Shipley

There is only one problem. When a church says no to a same-sex wedding they end up getting sued or the like. The homosexual community is two faced. When it comes to them and their rights, they are the upholders of human rights. But when someone doesn't agree with their lifestyle, they are right there to deny their rights. - Gavin

What church has been sued for not wanting to perform a same-sex marriage? I know that on Mormon forums that's oft-repeated statement, but there's no basis in fact. We have separation of church & state in this country. The law that Prop. 8 is fighting against, does NOT force churches to hold same-sex ceremonies, nor does it force the churches to recognize same-sex marriages. Anyone arguing otherwise is an outright liar. - Anika Malone

I thought that was an odd statement too. That would be like suing a Catholic church for not baptizing me since I'm Buddhist. - Rodfather

Gavin: Can you elaborate on the two-faced nature? The two examples you just cited seem to me to both be about same-sex couples being discriminated against as a class. Even if your 'gays suing churches for not marrying them' is pervasive (which I haven't seen) how does banning same-sex marriage in any location or context justified? It's like saying 'I hate those kids coming in to my grown-up comic book store and suing me when I kick them out, so let's pass a law banning kids from reading comic books.' - Kevin Fox

My feeling on this is there will be a time when we look back on how this country treated homosexuals the way we presently look back on how this country treated women and black people. And by the way, it was generally "the church" that spoke out virulently against giving voting rights, civil liberties, etc. - Jeremy Toeman

I see this as Jeremy does - as a discrimination issue. I keep coming back to how interracial marriages were once illegal for reasons that I'm sure sound a lot like the justifications against gay marriage today. I can't imagine living in a society where I wouldn't be allowed to marry my wife, therefore why should we deny that positive experience to anybody who has the opportunity to experience it? Oh, and I support marrying clones whenever that comes around, too. - Jason Kaneshiro

+1 Jeremy - dkb

If a church chooses not to recognize/perform gay marriages, they don't have to. If there are any legal cases of a church being sued to go against its basic principles, please do point me toward them. We cannot, as a democratic, multi-faith nation, allow any religious creeds to influence civil rights. Kevin brings up an excellent analogy re Muslim headscarves. If you're conflicted religiously regarding homosexuality, it's an issue to take up with your god, not in the private homes and lives of others. - Carla Thompson

Carla, this is true as long as the church doesn't get federal money for any reason. If they want the federal money, they need to play by the fed's rules on discrimination. - Alex Scoble CISSP

Can someone explain the big deal to me about a kindergartener being "exposed to the existence" of SSM? I mean, I grew up with friends of my parents in a committed same-sex relationship. I'm not a serial killer. My kids know that some kids have a mom and a dad, some have one or the other, and some have two moms or two dads. They don't think a thing about it. It's amazing how kids don't react when their parents aren't freaking out about something. - Cyndy

Alex, the money the churches (and ONLY Christian ones who push a GOP agenda) receive is not tied into this. Bush's Faith-Base Initiative actually has the loophole in it that churches can still receive Fed. $$$ without adhering to Fed. rules. - Anika Malone

Alex, makes sense. But why would a church need federal money? - Carla Thompson

Carla, often it's not a church in a strict sense. I went to college at Emory and we had a chapel on campus. Since the school received federal funding for certain grants etc. the chapel had to perform same-sex marriages or no marriages at all. - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)

Carla, et. al, I shared a link in the blog of an example of a church getting sued. Here it is (scroll down the page): http://www.npr.org/templates/s... I'll see if I can pull a few more examples. Again, I'm not for or against this - I just don't think it's cut or dry, and the church getting sued thing is the most convincing factor towards any one side for me. - Jesse Stay via twhirl

can someone please tell me where the harm is in a kid being taught that if you love someone then they should be allowed to express their love in their own way? How can it possibly harm a person? seriously? - alphaxion

I don't understand the mentality that same-sex marriage threatens the sanctity of marriage. I too believe this is about discrimination. I always remember a story of a couple in their 70's who has been together for 30 years and felt it wasn't fair they weren't able to marry until now. - Rodfather

It has happened to people in Canada in a variety of instances, where they have gotten sued for not supporting same-sex marriage, and the homosexual agenda. For instance, a church who said no to a same-sex couple when requesting use of their church for the marriage. Another was a print shop which refused to print some material about homosexuality because it was against the owners belief. In both instances these people were sued! - Gavin

one thing is to be sued, and another losing. what happened in those cases? - Alejandro S.

In both those cases they lost. And even if they won, they still spent their life savings defending themselves. - Gavin

So you don't really know what happened. Where's your source? - Alejandro S.

In this article there are more cases of church or church organizations being sued: http://churchstate.org/site/1/... - Jesse Stay via twhirl

"Oh, and I support marrying clones whenever that comes around, too." and it'll be 30 years after clone-nonclone marriage is protected [after the landmark State of OK vs Angelina Jolie ∞34327, ∞44290, ∞77200-78329 class-action lawsuit] before people will finally protect the rights for people to marry clones of themselves [State of NJ vs Jayden Federline and Jayden Federline ∞1]. - Kevin Fox

those churches are being sued because of discrimination, making them lose their rights to tax exceptions. Which I think is right. Gavin is talking about churches being sued fro not allowing same-sex marriages taking place in their premises. We need sources for that information. - Alejandro S.

The churches getting sued is immaterial to the legality of same-sex marriage. Prop 8 would ban civil ceremonies as well as ceremonies conducted by houses of worship which don't discriminate against this minority. - Kevin Fox

Kevin, don't forget marriage to those underage, or even marriage to multiple wives. The line has to be drawn somewhere. In the end, *everything* is a moral issue. - Jesse Stay via twhirl

"The Homosexual Agenda>" http://www.bettybowers.com/hom... - John Craft

they fear that making same-sex marriages legal is going to lead to churches being forced to perform them. I think that's silly, because they are protected by the First Amendment, but that's what they believe, - Alejandro S.

Here's the thing I simply don't understand. We're talking about verbage here, that's all. In the end, regardless of Prop. 8, Gays can still have all the priviliges as any married individual. Why is the term, "married" such an important term? Again, I don't have to vote on this so I don't care as much, but this matter simply makes no sense to me. - Jesse Stay via twhirl

http://www.mythor.net/wp-conte... - Alejandro S.

@Jesse replace "Gays" with "Blacks" and see how your argument sounds. should be pretty self-evident after that - Jeremy Toeman

The verbage thing is why I think it's a religious thing - "civil union" sounds more legal than "marriage". I think of "marriage" as religious. Both essentially mean the same thing IIUC - one just has religious connotations. - Jesse Stay via twhirl

Jeremy, I don't see how this is a "black" or "white" or "male" or "female" issue though. First, it's still hotly contested that there is a Gay gene out there. Second, even if there is (which I'd really like to think), there are other issues at stake. There are affects on society, the way children are raised, the number of people that aren't born gay but later on are influenced to be come so. As a "black" person, you can't choose later in life that you want to become black. As much as I'd like it to be, it's not exactly the same comparison. - Jesse Stay via twhirl

@Jesse that might be the rub. I'm married but I don't consider "marriage" to be a religious word in any way. My wife and I aren't religious. So here's an answer: Maybe the churches should just come up with their own word for marriage. How about "holy marriage" Then you can do your thing and let us secular folks have "marriage"? - Jason Kaneshiro

"Why is the term, "married" such an important term?" - Anything else is "separate but equal." - John Craft

Jesse, 'marriage' has societal connotations that aren't limited to religion. I got married 5 weeks ago and neither my wife and I are religious, yet the distinction of 'marriage' is much more important to us than the 'domestic partnership' or 'civil union' we could have labeled our union. As for where to draw the line: where would you propose to draw it? I don't think marriage with minors should be any more legal than sex with minors (although marrying a minor is legal in many states with parental consent, and sex with those same minors is *rendered legal* by virtue of the underage marriage, and I believe this is wrong. I also believe that a 'civil union' or 'domestic partnership' between a minor and an adult is wrong for the same reasons, however in no case do I believe it's right to say it's fine for someone to have a 'civil union' and deny them the right of marriage because of the Christian church's view of what the word should mean. - Kevin Fox

Jason, or how about we just call anything outside a church, "a civl union" - the two have equal meanings. Marriage began as a religious definition - while it may not be thought of as such now, that's where it began. Why it's necessary to be called "married", or "civil unionized (or whatever the word)" doesn't make sense to me. The two terms are equal. - Jesse Stay via twhirl

@Jesse http://www.webmd.com/parenting... - Alejandro S.

Jesse, if the two terms are equal to you, why do you want to regulate the rights of a group of people to use one of the terms? Doesn't that very regulation render them uneuqal? Also, they're not that equal in the first place: http://www.google.com/trends?q... I could say that secular marriages should be called 'lawbondings' and say they're just like marriages except they're non-religious and anyone can have them, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong to say I'm crazy to think they're equal. - Kevin Fox

@Kevin After allowing gay marriage, why can't I marry multiple wives, marry my dog, my house?? Marry a minor, have sex with a minor. It's all discrimination isn't it? The line for marriage has been drawn at one man and one women for thousands of years. Why should we draw it again? - Gavin

"you can't choose later in life that you want to become black." - Are you seriously claiming that people choose to become gay? - John Craft

I think part of the importance of the term "married" has to do with the legal status that it has, for example when it comes to filing taxes and the like. I think one option out of this debacle would just to take government out of marriage altogether. If marriage has to do with religion, then let the religions decide how they want to do it, and remove any mention of it from the government. That would be fine with me. - Robert Felty

"why can't I marry multiple wives, marry my dog, my house??" - Because a dog or a house can't give consent (much less understand the concept). "Marry a minor, have sex with a minor." - the state has a compelling interest in protecting minors, but in fact it's not illegal in some (many?) jurisdictions to marry a minor with parental consent. - John Craft

Gavin: Are you seriously asking me why I feel more strongly that my sister should be permitted to marry her life-partner than that she should be able to marry a dog or a house? I'm done with this conversation. I'll leave it to others to carry the torch because I have better ways to fight discrimination in this country than responding to stupid arguments. - Kevin Fox

John - Legal standing. Our system provides equal protection under the law. Your house is not entitled, neither is your dog. Bigamy is specifically illegal. Are you advocating making it illegal for two people of the same sex to be married (with attendant jail time)? - Brian Roy

@Jesse why does being gay have to be a genetic issue to have merit??? let's assume it *was* a choice, so what? - Jeremy Toeman

Could someone please tell me what the "homosexual agenda" is because apparently I missed that meeting. - Chris Shipley

Chris, it's right next to the "Mormon agenda" meeting - how could you miss it? ;-) - Jesse Stay via twhirl

Chris, it's linked upthread - here it is again. - http://www.bettybowers.com/hom... - John Craft

@Gavin: could you provide a reference for the cases you cite? It is my understanding that the 2004 Canadian Supreme Court ruling specifically granted clergy the rights to refuse to perform or recognize ceremonies for almost any reason (http://www.religioustolerance....). - Neil Kandalgaonkar

Religion is more of a choice than sexuality. Dogs and Houses can't give consent and some people are more concerned with trying to control others than themselves. Here is a good blog entry on why religious people need to worry more about civil liberties and less about what I do in my bedroom. http://tinyurl.com/5c7llb - aka Taylor

and exactly how where and how does this saving come about into being, once they have singedup with TC50 ? - Peter Dawson

So getting a DEMO offer is a shortcut around the TC50 application process? Makes me feel good about the chances for my application... - Brad Collins via twhirl

Peter Dawson: DEMO charges $18,500 to get on stage for six minutes... TechCrunch50 is merit based and has no fee. IN fact, TC50 gives a $50,000 grand prize! Brad Collins: it's not a short cut any more... it was just for a couple of companies for three weeks because DEMO gave "exploding offers" to people. that's over. - Jason Calacanis