 |
|
| FriendFeed is the easiest way to share online. Learn more » |
Daltonsbriefs › Likes
After unfollowing everyone on Twitter I get why some hate FriendFeed: there you see tons of noise from people you didn't follow.
anna sauce, Daltonsbriefs, Samaneh and 22 other people liked this
Comments let everyone participate.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Friend-of-friend feature brings tons of people into your view.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Hallelujah!
- Sally Church
I wish we could make FriendFeed into JUST an aggregator.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
I think a simple switch that let you turn off FoaF completely, and/or only show FoaF for comments, not likes, would go a long way to cleaning things up.
- Ken Sheppardson
Even though there is conversation on FF, we can't have proper threaded conversation and that results in noise.
- Veetrag
I mean the options are there to turn off FoaF once you "Hide" an item, but they're buried.
- Ken Sheppardson
Robert: so, you're not interested in having an open conversation on friendfeed anymore? That surprises me.
- Joel
Ken: you can turn off FOAF: click on hide twice.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
I noticed you're not following me but I didn't take it personal. I'm still following you, I learn a lot from you so keep smiling buddy. I still think you're the shit. :)
- Jeunelle Foster
Couldn't agree more~~ Just too much information to handle by a human beings
- Yunkwan Chen
from feedalizr
Joel: I am but most people are not.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Interesting that this item only got one response on Twitter so far.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Sean: cool, I have trained you well! :-)
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
@Scoble one response on twitter shows that, people like to see what others are replying too. We can't see that on Twitter.
- Veetrag
Robert, you can easily turn FF into just an aggregator. Feed your services in and don't interact. The only thing missing is an account setting to automatically disabnle comments on all of your posts, which can easily be requested in the Feedback room. Or, make your feed private so no one can see items to commeent upoon them.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
from fftogo
Robert - So, how does this insight affect your view of FF now?
- phil baumann
Phil: it makes me want better display options in FriendFeed.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
This real-time group discussion on FriendFeed is totally different from Twitter but I can't help but feel if you spend your time here, you might miss out on the general Twitter feed.
- Ken Seto
Ken: What is the advantage of general twitter feed, if all the twitter feed is anyways directed to FF?
- Veetrag
Robert - what kinds of additional options would you like rolled out?
- phil baumann
Well I'm not seeing anything happening on FriendFeed other than comments in this discussion
- Ken Seto
Phil: it also makes me want real mobile clients.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
I need a TweetDeck for FriendFeed :D
- Ken Seto
Robert, do you think to get 'real' feed mobiles have to support flash. because i believe with heavy JS would be unstable on mobile platforms.
- Veetrag
Ken - Have you tried PeopleBrowsr?
- phil baumann
Robert, the way I see it, everyone's definition of "social media" is different. Some people will tolerate a little higher noise in their S/N ratio to glean extra information from open conversations on FF/Twitter. Others may want to eliminate the noise and just focus on a few select feeds. That's the beauty of social media, you can (within limitations of the software you use) determine your own level of interaction.
- Jack Wilson, K4SAC
Will take a look at PeopleBrowsr, thanks
- Ken Seto
Phil: I want to see a TRUE river of news. No popping up of things that get engagement. I want to see NO comments exposed. I want a REAL best of day (the ones I currently get show me old items. That is a start.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Jack: that is true which is why we need better display options.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Robert - so perhaps an option to for a collapsed view (text only - sort of like a reader) with options to define what comes up in the view. (I guess that would bring us back to some sort of modified social RSS :)
- phil baumann
Phil: yes!!!
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Phil : We would also need a way in which we can like/unlike comments too. That will help us read only priority content. It can be one way around smaller screens.
- Veetrag
Robert - this somewhat reminds me of Muhammad Saleem's post comparing FriendFeed and SocialThing from March 2008. His goal was an aggregator, not another social network: http://muhammadsaleem.com/2008...
- Hutch Carpenter
But wouldn't using FF as an aggregator just make it more like a social RSS feed service? For my personal social media paradigm I would miss out on the conversation part of FF. Of course your paradigm may be different :O)
- Jack Wilson, K4SAC
Jack: I would keep that option on FOR ME but tons of others tell me they hate coming here because of the noise. I totally grok that now.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
I'll use Twitter and FriendFeed though, both were just great.
- Vince Ong
Understood. I appreciate that Robert. One of the things that initially drew me to FF was the ability to interact with people such as yourself. I would truly hate if we lost that ability, Of course I am sure your noise is a whole heck of a lot louder than mine :O)
- Jack Wilson, K4SAC
Until FriendFeed makes hide even easier, this will continue to happen. People are generally too lazy to use hide to the fullest. I don't know if it's a design issue or a user issue, but people don't like to use it.
- Bwana ☠
I think it is a design issue. There are too many features stuck under the hide link.
- Robert Scoble
from iPhone
Good point Robert. But where else do you put those links??
- Roberto Bonini
from iPhone
I've been loudly raising precisely the issues which Robert Scoble mentions in this post for over a year -- with zero feedback from Friendfeed developers. This is why Friendfeed's growth has been flat and will continue to remain flat. (But Friendfeed is still a great platform, even in its imperfect and much too noisy state.)
- Sean McBride
It amazes me that as of August 9, 2009, Friendfeed's developers, who seem to be brilliant in most respects, still have no appreciation of the importance of elementary design features like list view and the separation of unread from read items. The mind boggles. I really don't get it. And they don't seem to be interested in the hottest field in news reading and management: smart news recommender systems.
- Sean McBride
A fact that seems relevant to this thread: I discovered this post in the FFHolic Most Discussed feed in the Featured Sources box on Feedly's My Digest page. I stopped trying to read the chaotic torrent on Friendfeed's home page a long time ago -- a poor investment of one's time and energy. Without Feedly's elegant user interface, I wouldn't have seen this post.
- Sean McBride
I think the second thing i did on FriendFeed was to remove friends-of-friends because of you.
- Sam Pullara
Note to self: Don’t ‘friend’ your boss on FB and then bitch about your job. - http://thenextweb.com/2009...
Nils Sandin, Suhel Khan, Tapio Kulmala and 20 other people liked this
So true. But friending your boss can have advantages too. Can't think of any though haha.
- Seth Goldstein
"Original" Post - http://friendfeed.com/eskimo...
- Ken Sheppardson
Social Darwinism at its finest.
- Jeff Harbert
Seth: my bosses are all my friends. Personally, I never write or say anything I wouldn't be OK with seeing on the front page of the New York Times. That usually covers all these types of things.
- Robert Scoble
Wah haha classic!
- Andy Ghozali
maybe there is some secret benefit to being fired, if so this one sure way to get fired :)
- Peter du Toit (S.Africa)
from fftogo
RT @loic: Mark Cuban to Rupert Murdoch: "My Advice to Fox & MySpace on Selling Content – Yes You Can" http://blogmaverick.com/2009...
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Why Comments Matter - http://www.avc.com/a_vc...
Daniel Rowley, Parthasarathi, Meryn Stol and 11 other people liked this
I could like this post multiple times, Fred. Comments do matter a great deal.
- Valeria Maltoni
here is a comment then...
- Noah David Simon
If it isn't conversational, it really isn't social media, it seems to me.
- shelisrael1
Which #indiana driver are you hoping will win the Brickyard 400 today?
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Jeff Gordon of course
- Daltonsbriefs
RT @gopgal88: RT @TwitsNtwats They may have banned Twitter, but here's Obama's Facebook: http://twitpic.com/botom [THIS IS SO DAMN FUNNY! RT
 |
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Army officer won't deploy to Afghanistan over Obama birth certificate flap - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009...
Daltonsbriefs liked this
"Orly Taitz, the lawyer in Keyes' case, is also representing a soldier who refuses to acknowledge Obama as his president. U.S. Army Maj. Stefan Frederick Cook has argued that he shouldn't have to go to Afghanistan because the man sending him there isn't really president."
- Bill Sodeman
from Bookmarklet
"UPDATE: The Army has revoked the deployment orders for a soldier who said he shouldn't have to go to Afghanistan because (he believes) Barack Obama was never eligible to be president. Because he's a reserve soldier who volunteered for an active duty tour he can "ask for a revocation of orders up until the day he is scheduled to report for active duty," a public affairs officer explained. Cook volunteered for the tour in May of this year. It is not clear why he did so, considering his current objections."
- Bill Sodeman
"Perhaps desperate for new ways to undermine Barack Obama’s presidency, Fox News has joined forces with the “birthers,” the fringe who irrationally claim that Obama’s presidency is illegitimate because he was not born in the U.S. As Think Progress has reported, Obama’s Hawaii birth certificate is widely available on the internet. FactCheck.org has also extensively researched the...
more...
- Bill Sodeman
Today is Wedding Day for Bryant (son) and his bride Emily! What a neat event!
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Yes, congrats!
- William Meeker
from iPhone
congratulations Chuck, was great seeing you again this week. Will know more on Porter Co. after meeting on Monday
- Daltonsbriefs
Amplify | several’s clip log » Why “RT Iran” or “RT from Iran” doesn’t do what you think it does - http://several.amplify.com/2009...
Daltonsbriefs liked this
I read that same article a little while ago, and he's right
- Daltonsbriefs
High Court Rules Against Sotomayor in Discrimination Suit - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...
Daltonsbriefs, Sean McBride and Rob Haas liked this
"The Supreme Court today narrowly ruled in favor of white firefighters in New Haven, Conn., who said they were denied promotions because of their race, reversing a decision by Judge Sonia Sotomayor and others that had come to play a large role in the consideration of her nomination for the high court. The city had thrown out the results of a promotion test because no African Americans and only two Hispanics would have qualified for promotions. It said it feared a lawsuit from minorities under federal laws that said such "disparate impacts" on test results could be used to show discrimination. In effect, the court was deciding when avoiding potential discrimination against one group amounted to actual discrimination against another."
- Michael Forian
from Bookmarklet
Good for the court, if the company had a system for testing how dare they throw it out when they didn't like the results
- Daltonsbriefs
Meddle in Honduras But Not Iran? - http://caffeinatedthoughts.com/...
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Hmmm… interesting. On June 16th, President Obama said he didn’t want “to be seen as meddling.” Now after this weekend’s military coup in Honduras we learn in a Wall Street Journal article today that: The Obama administration and members of the Organization of American States had worked for weeks to try to avert any moves to [...]
more hypocrisy from the "pardon us, we apologize" administration
- Daltonsbriefs
We need real-time improvements to RSS and other feeds. More on why here:
Kathleen Capps, Ian Betteridge, Captain Jack and 96 other people liked this
Dave Winer's latest two posts on his blog are NOT on friendfeed yet. I had to manually link to one of his that's very important. This is something I would like to focus the community members of Building43 on.
- Robert Scoble
There are some alternatives out there, like friendfeed's SUP, but they aren't widely adopted.
- Robert Scoble
How can we work together as an industry to make RSS better and faster? I remember Dave Winer used to run a ping server, which kept things pretty quick. Do we need to build another ping server for the industry?
- Robert Scoble
almost seems the real time web is going to need two streets, one is memcached and the other isnt :)
- sean percival
And, if we are going to build another ping server, how do we build one so it serves everyone equally well?
- Robert Scoble
I remember when I first visited Dave Winer at his house. He'd refresh the list of all blogs that were pinging his ping server (it built a list of stuff that's new right now) and he'd visit all those links. Friendfeed reminds me a lot of that except friendfeed is too slow. I hate it when i see people talking about posts before they show up on their main feeds here, like happened with dave's posts today.
- Robert Scoble
I wonder what Dave Winer's thoughts are on this topic?
- Robert Scoble
I wholeheartedly agree. So often by the time something appears in Google Reader for me its 30 minutes old. RSS Needs to be made more efficient. The second you hit "publish" it should appear in my feed reader.
- David Lloyd
RSS is not real-time enough.
- David Lloyd
stop been such a cheer leader for friendfeed, yes we get it it's cool, but unless u r looking for some stocks from their, stop it dude... u r making of this a religion, ur view of 2010 is just a naive view of the future of the internet, there is more to be done. Yes more people around the world needs to embrase it, but there is more to just a twitter accound, a facebook or a a friendfeed place.
- Gilbert Corrales
Gilbert: OK, look at Facebook then. It has the exact same problem.
- Robert Scoble
gilbert FF is more than cool, it's the prototype for how many will share and interact in the near future.
- sean percival
Isn't this purely because RSS is modeled after a subscription pattern? "I have this available here you can subscribe. When I make an update I'll post it here and you have to come check if there is new stuff"
- Nicholas Orr
And Gilbert if you like your news "aged" then go back to reading newspaper. Everything there is guaranteed to be at least eight hours old by the time you get it.
- Robert Scoble
Naa Robert is right no matter how you look at it. Remember when you got your first 1mb internet how fast it seemed compared to dialup? It's time RSS was brought into the broadband era of being instant. There has to be a way of doing it.
- David Lloyd
Nicholas: right. If I update my RSS feed it can be hours or even days before various spiders come and visit it. Some pages are visited more often, but usually only because they are updated more often. In Dave's blog's case the spiders aren't visiting very often and even if they were they wouldn't be real time like my photos (OurDoings.com uses SUP to let friendfeed know it has something new to come and grab -- that works awesomely fast).
- Robert Scoble
Scoble: I am not talking about aged... I am talking that there is way more we can do than freendfeed... u can reach 40.000 in a single message, but is that it? how many people is in FF and how many in FB? how may come to ur blog from some other reason?... my current research focus on the semantic web, and how many people is after thatn?... yeh the NYT is startin to embrase that's nothing
- Gilbert Corrales
Gilbert: I'm talking about speed, not audience size. Don't know why you are on the attack here or what point you are trying to make. Facebook has the exact same problem friendfeed does.
- Robert Scoble
Gilbert: and so does Google Reader and other feed readers. They are too slow to have a decent conversation.
- Robert Scoble
Robert I don't want to speak out of turn but David Winer will be furious at this thread. It is perhaps the most important technical thread in a long while on friendfeed though in my opinion.
- David Lloyd
its posible do a temporizer for rss...Im working in this...the race begins...
- Ferdy
Only someone with a huge audience like you could have started this discussion and debate.
- David Lloyd
Mark: I don't agree that Dave will be furious. I think he should be furious that his content is not being seen WHEN he's writing it.
- Robert Scoble
I agree, I have the same problem. How do we get faster RSS? It is a problem for real time.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
Scoble: we need more than just this or fb (sorry if I am in attack mode.) but we need a bigger, radical chance... web 2010 is more than just this, it's about reaching where we haven't reach... 3rd worlds are on the rise, and we need some basic ground, and to be honest I dont think FF is
- Gilbert Corrales
Sorry to turn the conversation non-serious here but I am much more interested in precogs - I would like to know the news before it happens...real time is just too stale...haha :)
- Mike Bracco
Mark: that is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. You could have started it. THe second I click "like" on your item it goes to all my readers.
- Robert Scoble
oh cool, so when you like something it syndicates across all your followers in their feeds?
- David Lloyd
http://friendfeed.com/scoblei... ah there
- David Lloyd
Gilbert: we're arguing about RSS here. Not friendfeed. Take the friendfeed stuff to a different thread. Mark: that's EXACTLY how friendfeed works. Yes.
- Robert Scoble
I think that Google Wave might be the first thing that approaches the kind of speed you are talking about
- Chris Johnston
Chris: I can't wait to get Google Wave. So far I haven't gotten it because I didn't go to the Google I/O conference. But if Google Wave relies on RSS/Atom feeds it, too, will be too slow.
- Robert Scoble
Yes real time is cool.
- Randy Allen Bishop
Robert: Hmmm well the only reason OurDoings can update your FriendFeed is because you have a FriendFeed account... What if Dave Winer doesn't want a FriendFeed account. So now I'm thinking isn't this what those Blog aggregaters are used for? You don't need an account if you do create an account then you can claim your blog etc. Seems like SUP needs to be added to theses Blog aggregators and in turn WordPress/Drupal/Blogger others support that.
- Nicholas Orr
Well the google wave demo's were instant, as in, milliseconds, content was pushed from computer a to b instantly.
- David Lloyd
I want to know about what everyone writes THE SECOND they hit post. Dave's feed at http://friendfeed.com/davew still doesn't have his latest two blog posts.
- Robert Scoble
Google Wave relies on bots that can do whatever they want... (umm within the confines of permissions, waves. Its not a broadcasting platform, you have to be involved in the conversation)
- Nicholas Orr
it is not RSS that is the problem - it is the 'concept' syndication doesnt work - real-time filtering based upon the social graph is the future - twitter/FF etc are just one step along a path
- Nick Halstead
Please retweet this thread link on your twitters, might be a good way to get some more people over here on FF x
- David Lloyd
Nicholas: no, the reason OurDoings works so fast is because it doesn't use RSS. It uses, instead, SUP which comes into friendfeed nearly instantly. The problem is that very few web sites and services use SUP, most rely on RSS. So, I guess one answer is to spend years evangelizing SUP. I'd rather see some other "upgrade" of what RSS does, so that the whole system gets real time without a bunch of years wasted evangelizing yet another protocol.
- Robert Scoble
Scoble: problem is (as I see it) is that as far as I've seen everything for u gets solve in FF, yes it's a step up from RSS, but how many orgs can have a Scoble here? we need something that allows for conversation but also allows for growing and for commerce (like the ones u r targeting for) no everyone is up for this change... but an incremental change
- Gilbert Corrales
Robert: yeah I get that SUP is what does it quick. However you have to have an account. RSS requires no account. If you know about RSS address you can look at the content.
- Nicholas Orr
I just 'liked' this post, and it displayed almost immediately in my Google Reader. Is it the 'like' function, my connection, or something else that is different...
- Wallace
Nicholas: good point. Which is why people far smarter than me need to explain to me how RSS will get real time features.
- Robert Scoble
Sorry but SUP is just a bodge on top of RSS - it was designed to allow FF more efficient access to when things update. SUP is has not got a future in making the web real-time end of story
- Nick Halstead
Wallace: Google Reader's spiders hit certain pages very often because they know they are getting updated very often. Google, for instance, is indexing friendfeed every few minutes, if not faster. But it doesn't treat EVERY web page/web site that way.
- Robert Scoble
are you a developer Nick? you sound like you know what you are talking about with all the jargon
- David Lloyd
Nick: since you build real time systems I would love to know your ideas of how RSS will become more real time.
- Robert Scoble
Mark: Nick Halstead is the guy behind TweetMeme.
- Robert Scoble
how deliciously exciting!
- David Lloyd
Robert: Doesn't FriendFeed / Twitter make RSS less relevant today?
- Jim Connolly
RSS IS everywhere Jim, is what Dave said, its liek HTTP or FTP it will always be there
- David Lloyd
the work twitter is doing on HTTP streams is much more interesting to me, this is about large volume filtered content being delivered out to multiple destinations.
- Nick Halstead
Jim: no. A lot of what is imported here is RSS.
- Robert Scoble
Jim Connolly: Yes, I think it is.
- PWR
@Robert - it is split into two parts - how content is delivered to users - Like 'long polling' which FF uses (and we do as well) - and then how big systems transfer real-time data - and that is what twitter is doing with HTTP Filtered Streams
- Nick Halstead
Quite simple -- they should support the weblogs.com ping protocol. It's brain-dead simple. If they don't like XML-RPC they can use the REST version. Then FF would immediately be compatible with every blogging platform out there. I've been saying this for over a year, but they either don't listen or they do and they don't want to do it. THey've never responded. So your issue is with them. It's easy for FF to get on the bus. Set up a ping server and you're done.
- Dave Winer
@Robert I see Google / Others all starting to consume these new streams (It cant just rely on just polling websites every hour/day anymore)
- Nick Halstead
@Dave that is never going to work on scale - if it was going to work it would have been done, the next step is to allow consuming of real-time streams - I dont care what format the stream is in but we cant go back to thinking polling techniques can give us even a sense of real-time
- Nick Halstead
Nick Halstead is the gaffer behind the sublime http://tweetmeme.com/, Dave x
- David Lloyd
At the moment if you click 'retweet' on one of our retweet buttons (when your logged in) it takes 5-6 seconds to get from TweetMeme -> Twitter -> FriendFeed ... that sounds impressive, but it 'should' be instant
- Nick Halstead
so who pays to have servers turned on with n people connected to it ready to recieve content via push? Isn't that what this is coming down to? You have the content creator and the content cosumer, then in the middle is the content pusher - I don't see content creators or content consumers paying content pusher...
- Nicholas Orr
Robert & Mark: My bad - I forgot that RSS is how we pull everything together on FF. I was thinking exclusively regarding FF and Twitter as a source of new, fresh material. Thanks for the heads up guys!
- Jim Connolly
@Nicholas - the joy of the new technologies is that having open connections is actually more efficient than delivering separate requests ever 30 seconds (i.e. AJAX polling)
- Nick Halstead
Here I manage 20 platforms with RSS, can i see which is more fast to receive data...http://www.fdeflash.com/fpanel...
- Ferdy
Scoble, also when you talk to your friends at FF, ask them to support OPML import and export. I think you should go on strike until they do that. It's about the most user-unfriendly thing they could do. It's been too long for it to be a matter of resources. They're building a roach motel here. I wouldn't add any more value here until they add a way out.
- Dave Winer
www.getpingd.com is an attempt to solve this problem by adding a real-time, peer-2-peer ping ontop of RSS
- Chris Saad
@Nick - yeah content pusher was what I made up for your open connection - where do you get an open connection from? Isn't RSS an open connection? FriendFeed works well for us because we have accounts. Say someone creates a new blog, that isn't going to go anywhere until that person creates a Twitter account and FriendFeed account and connects the blog - then it will be plugged into the...
more...
- Nicholas Orr
@Nicholas a range of technologies exist now to deliver data delivery that relies upon an open connection such as 'comet' http://cometdaily.com/ - FF uses it - it requires very different server architectures so it is taking time for developers to move onto it
- Nick Halstead
Gnip is an attempt to do this with a Central Service - but it doesn't need to be central - it should be distributed - again - refer to getpingd.com :)
- Chris Saad
Chris, you think all this hasn't been beaten to death ad nauseum? We're coming up on the 10th anniversary of weblogs.com. All the would-be reinventers have given up. Over and over. You guys should have reunions! :-)
- Dave Winer
Scoble, if you can hear me -- try following this account. http://friendfeed.com/friends... You'll get all my updates within five minutes. And a bunch of others you probably are missing too. :-)
- Dave Winer
anyone know how to get realtime twitter mentions on friendfeed?
- Tyler Gillies
Question: what runs IM technology (IRC)? Could this be a solution applied to RSS. Obviously, I'm not a developer just thinking out loud.
- Jason Cronkhite
xmpp is the best PUSH IM technology IMHO
- Tyler Gillies
"There are some alternatives out there, like friendfeed's SUP, but they aren't widely adopted. - Robert Scoble" - YouTube just recently announced SUP support: http://apiblog.youtube.com/2009...
- Benjamin Golub
whatS UP?
- Tyler Gillies
SUP FAQ: http://code.google.com/p...
- PWR
It looks like Rob is AFk - probably gone to a party or something ;)
- David Lloyd
you calling me a FAQ?
- Tyler Gillies
wordpress SUP plugin http://neothoughts.com/2008...
- Tyler Gillies
typically appears on friendfeed within 10 seconds [so the site says]
- Tyler Gillies
Yeah - SUP does this. I use it on my site, and Youtube is starting to use it as well. Google just encouraged developers to begin taking advantage of it.
- Jesse Stay
There is absolute proof that people want to interact in real-time. It's called Google Wave. Google and Facebook have been making a habit of using FF as a test environment for new features (comments, likes, sharing, grouping, etc). Real-time is just the next 'wave' Google will be stealing.
- Scott Magdalein
Google's Wave is also a solution. I have a test account and I can see it becoming a real-time replacement for blogging.
- Jesse Stay
Robert, BTW, if you ever want to play with it, I can give you access to my test account to play with.
- Jesse Stay
Justt add a Google Reader layer to Google Wave, problem solved. Did you try it?
- Charbax
@charbax - not really, the problem is that Google Reader (wave or not) still takes forever. it's not a layer issue, it's a paradigm issue.
- Scott Magdalein
I went through this a few years back. Including the 'ping server' concept where my server would ping the ping server with new content. The ping server would then ping all subscribers. The subscribers would then request the new RSS. Then I realised: That's basically what XMPP is for. We just need an extension to XMPP that is for RSS style syndication. Other XMPP clients subscribe to my...
more...
- RickMeasham
@Jesse: You've got to be in the conversation though. I guess a group could be created "everybody@onthe.net" and we could all opt into that group. Then all we have to do is add the group and bam instant global broadcast :) (Google Wave)
- Nicholas Orr
Publishers have to have the infrastructure for realtime or they need to syndicate to a service, like Friendfeed, that acts as a hub. If you look at the way FedEx works, they send all packages to a hub before sending them to their end destination. As a publisher, I don't need any scale to push to Friendfeed, who can handle the scale of thousands of clients polling it. Even with pings, if...
more...
- Peter Warnock
Funny, was reading the Observer pattern section yesterday in the Gang of Four's seminal book on Design Patterns. It made me think I should blog about how RSS needs to implement aspects of it & just generally improve to handle realtime. Why not have the protocol allow for items to be pinged that are > guid X. (caveat, not sure if any of this has been spec'd out, haven't come across it...
more...
- Joe Devon
Why not just build all the good features from RSS and other feed systems in to Google wave
- Michael Mooney
do you think google wave will kill friendfeed?
- Tyler Gillies
friend feed should be one of the first Wave providers with it's own look and feel but still 100% compatible.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Michael Mooney
Google wave will certainly not kill FF. It will increase FF's relevance. The two services are totally different.
- Scott Magdalein
Scott why do The two services need to be totally different
- Michael Mooney
Wave is something that social media services will adopt. It will certainly not kill them. Michael, why are they different? For the same reason that FriendFeed and email are different. They just aren't the same at all.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
Remember Friend Feed, Facebook, Twitter, IM & E-mail are basically tools for communicating. so why do they need to be need to be totally different?
- Michael Mooney
They don't need to be, they just are. It's like asking why apples need to be different from oranges.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
They don't NEED to be different. They ARE different by their nature and purpose. Even though Wave is moving messaging to a more collaborative environment, it's still not an OPEN environment. That's where FF steps in. It's an ongoing, open conversation in real-time.
- Scott Magdalein
from email
As I said, it is likely that services like Facebook and friendFeed adopt the wave standard (not necessarily google's products though) as their new means of communication. I will also suggest that I will likely use most heavily, any social media service that uses waves for communications.
- guruvan (Rob Nelson)
People can be free use the Friend Feed wave or Facebook wave or Google wave or CNN wave each optimized for their communitys
- Michael Mooney
If static non-interactive web & e-mail are seen as Web 1.0, social services & IM as Web 2.0, so Wave Providers maybe be seen as Web 3.0
- Michael Mooney
Nicholas, exactly. One would just need to subscribe, and the blog would broadcast on each post out to that wave group. Real-time. You could even incorporate comments via that means, real-time.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, that's exactly the problem. Broadcast media isn't real-time when you try to also incorporate conversations around it. That's why FF isn't a broadcast medium, it's a conversation medium. Google Wave will still be far too fragmented to hold OPEN conversations.
- Scott Magdalein
from email
Nicholas Orr said, "well the only reason OurDoings can update your FriendFeed is because you have a FriendFeed account". Actually, any aggregator can get the same real-time results as FriendFeed. You could build your own competitor to FriendFeed and use SUP the exact same way FriendFeed does without asking my permission. Ping services don't allow that.
- Bruce Lewis
Hope all the social media service R&D teams are brainstorming on how to improve the web in events like Iran
- Michael Mooney
Superfeedr - realtime via xmpp & pubsubhubub http://blog.superfeedr.com/gospel...
- Capn' One Eye - adrift
Bruce Lewis - The point I was making was there needs to be an aggregate/hub for the information to flow too, otherwise people will need to visit lots of places. You can't have your content show up on FriendFeed unless you have an account :) People who start a blog right now aren't auto plugged into anything and have to plug themselves in. In order to have real time of the entire web I...
more...
- Nicholas Orr
FrameChannel doesn't have a FriendFeed account as far as I know, but I created a group and added one of their blogs to it. So I'd amend what you said to, you either need an account on the aggregator, or a user on the aggregator who's interested in following your blog. I think that's reasonable.
- Bruce Lewis
Wow, what a FF thread, and they say RSS is dead. This to me is simply a push vs pull debate. Granted RSS (the spec) is dated but RSS is highly used and useful. I believe RSS needs to evolve more like XMPP with Distributed hash tables like P2P networks. Allow RSS feeds to know how many active connections there are that it needs to send real time (which seeders such as GReader could...
more...
- manielse (Mark Nielsen)
Peter is exactly right, RSS/Atom is a "virtual" publish and subscribe pattern. For it to be a real publish and subscribe pattern it will need to 1) know and keep track of who/what has subscribed and 2) send out the new/updated content to all current subscribers at the time of publishing. XMPP probably points the way most clearly to date.
- Barry Baker
XMPP pubsub http://xmpp.org/extensi... Webhooks http://blog.webhooks.org PubSubHub http://code.google.com/p...
- Ken Sheppardson
If you had a Wave and had people join it, like following you on Twitter or subscribing on Friendfeed, you would then get the equivalent of those services but in real time and with playback.
- Chris Johnston
Indeed, hopefully PubSubHubbub will solve this. It can turn all of the web's feeds into push. http://pubsubhubbub.googlecode.com
- Brett Slatkin
Here's an article I posted last night on a path for GOP victory in 2010: http://www.thenextright.com/patrick...
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Fail: Attorney for a Illinois City Council found drunk, asleep in trash can - http://www.inquisitr.com/26612...
 |
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Jefferson City Indiana actually ... I guess he apologized, but what a tool. http://advanceindiana.blogspot.com/2009...
- Daltonsbriefs
Some more photo's from yesterday in tehran #iranelection - http://www.flickr.com/photos...
 |
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Teen Decomposes Plastic Bag in Three Months | Wired Science | Wired.com - http://www.wired.com/wiredsc...
Shane, Oleg, Robyn Hawk and 112 other people liked this
"Plastic takes thousands of years to decompose — but 16-year-old science fair contestant Daniel Burd made it happen in just three months. The Waterloo, Ontario high school junior figured that something must make plastic degrade, even if it does take millennia, and that something was probably bacteria. The Record reports that Burd mixed landfill dirt with yeast and tap water, then added ground plastic and let it stew. The plastic indeed decomposed more quickly than it would in nature; after experimenting with different temperatures and configurations, Burd isolated the microbial munchers. One came from the bacterial genus Pseudomonas, and the other from the genus Sphingomonas. Burd says this should be easy on an industrial scale: all that’s needed is a fermenter, a growth medium and plastic, and the bacteria themselves provide most of the energy by producing heat as they eat. The only waste is water and a bit of carbon dioxide."
- April Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
So why is carbon sequestration a good idea when it's all complicated and expensive, but bad when it involves burying plastic bags in landfills?
- Paul Buchheit
I think it's better to sequester carbon as dirt than as bags.
- Gabe
But if it's already in plastic bag form, why not leave it that way instead of turning it into CO2?
- Paul Buchheit
Paul: that's exactly what I've been thinking. Particularly since the City of Seattle no longer allows residents to sequester food based carbon in landfills and instead requires us to burn it into compost.
- Hayes Haugen
Dirt is useful because you can grow stuff in it. Most waste products are not so useful.
- Gabe
Yes, but the choice isn't between dirt and plastic -- it's between plastic and CO2.
- Paul Buchheit
I have to agree with Paul on this one: atmospheric CO2 is much more of a pressing concern at the moment than landfill space. Though I do admire the kid's scientific spirit.
- Louis Simoneau
Concur with Louis and Paul. Here's an interesting Penn & Teller bit about landfills: http://www.youtube.com/watch... (from their Bullshit episode on Recycling myths).
- Stephen Mack
It doesn't say what the process actually produces. They mention the feed material (plastic) and the waste material (water, CO2), but not the real products. I assumed it produced globs of carbon. Am I wrong?
- Gabe
Why would you assume that Gabe?
- Paul Buchheit
the carbon in the CO2, perhaps?
- Jack Jones
Has nobody considered this for an artificial ecosystem? Compost your scraps for fertile soil, and compost your bags for the CO2 for the plants growing in it. Sure you'll need an airlock on your greenhouse (and an oxy mask whenever you enter it) but you'll have the best damned tomatoes on your street.
- Chris, Taskerrific Guy
You don't want to leave it in plastic form as it screws up the ocean large! Check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... I hope they can use this to make something that would eat the plastic in the ocean rather than the sea life dying from it.
- Luke Kilpatrick
Since it said that the waste products were CO2 and water, I assumed there were also non-waste products. The good thing about landfills is that they can later be mined for all the great things that were too cheap to recycle.
- Gabe
Yeah, I think landfills have an unjustly bad reputation. When properly managed, they are a great way to deal with garbage that our technology can't yet efficiently recycle. (we're saving for the future!)
- Paul Buchheit
that's great news. now i can really finish my threat to all my damn *invincible* plastic bags! (waves fist)
- ed fry
The two biggest problems with landfill are the leachate seeping into groundwater (or contaminating local soil) and methane (a greenhouse gas). Even if you can mitigate those problems, they're difficult to eliminate entirely, making the land almost useless once it's full.
- Gabe
I wonder how long it would take if you don't grind the plastic down.
- Peng-Toh
Gabe, not to minimize the problems, but I live right next to Shoreline Ampitheather in Mountain View, which is built on landfill is proof that the landfill land is hardly useless.
- Stephen Mack
It's not just landfills, though. Take the large floating trash gyre of the Pacific, and its effects in the ecosystem. So the tiny little plastic balls in water are fake food, and animals eat them, and then die in various ways, lowering populations and making species even more fragile. Landfill may be a good way if it's contained and monitored more closely, or CO2, in various areas- such...
more...
- anna sauce
@anna at least he is coming up with a solution rather than just finding more things to complain about
- Chris Johnston
anna's right -- the problem is when the stuff ends up in the ocean. Landfills are a good way to keep the stuff out of the ocean.
- Gabe
Stop speculating and start experimenting!
- Dane Deasy
Lazy online commentators... ;)
- Dane Deasy
What's the risk in providing a specific kind of bacteria an unlimited food source?
- dthree
Old news.
- Will Higgins™
@respres http://twitpic.com/7k607 - ZOMG!! we had been talking about this but never thought you'd do it! LOL
 |
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Awesome
- Daltonsbriefs
I Will Not Post That Twitter Is Down, I Will Not Post That Twitter Is Down, I Will… - http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...
Rachael Depp, Daltonsbriefs, Kiran Patchigolla and 9 other people liked this
damn. FAIL.
- MG Siegler
from Bookmarklet
i know mg, it sucked that i was in sf when you were in ny - i think you were avoiding me! :)
- Allen Stern
I've written about Twitter passing WSJ/NYT in traffic, how we use Twitter for journalism, Twitter's tech partnerships, Twitter as a world changing technology platform, how Twitter pays my rent, how Twitter can be used for competitive intelligence, I wrote the SHIT out of last week's replies fiasco. Guess how many of 47 Twitter employees follow me.
Kartik Agaram, Iván Abrego, Adam Cohen and 90 other people liked this
2.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
it's not about me feeling entitled to be followed, almost every person there follows like 150 people. it's about a. whether they use the tool the way many of the rest of us do and thus know how best to use it (there's awesome potential)
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
and b. whether they even care.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
I'm feeling sad about the future of twitter b/c I worry that the company is just going to dumb it down for mainstream users when it used to be this huge open platform with SO much potential for innovation. even if they didn't want to use it that way, it's tragic if they muzzle it so that mainstream users don't get scared away. twitter is supposed to be world changing tech, that can be frightening, but it's important
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
someone please tell me I'm wrong about this so I can go back to being really excited about Twitter again!
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
your wrong* feel better now? ;-)... (*have no idea if you really are wrong btw)
- Steve O'Hear
I wish I could. I've been feeling similarly in recent weeks. I've even started to wonder if Twitter Inc understands Twitter. ;)
- phil baumann
My guess would be that they way they see it, they have their heads down driving towards ubiquity and establishing Twitter as a standard platform. Building market share, so to speak. Everything that doesn't contribute directly to the number of users on the platform can wait.
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, that sounds accurate and really dangerous.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Ken's probably right.
- phil baumann
<snip>use the tool the way many of the rest of us do<snip> This is a common mistake made by first movers and early adopters. The way *we* use it is not the only, best or even most profitable way. Which isn't to suggest they have a plan in place that will work -- simply that basing the assumption on how it is used by a small, tiny sect of the population (the digerati) is not a way to...
more...
- Brad_King
Marshall. Why don't we all decide to start ignoring them. Maybe that will teach them. They get too much free publicity for a poor job done in the past months ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Brad, that's a thoughtful comment for sure. To put it in context, though, hiding messages due to fear of information overload **on Twitter** is a clear move away from open, in my mind.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Brad - kinda like duct tape: can be used in ways never originally intended.
- phil baumann
do we need to relegate Twitter to the yet-another-mass-market source and find the next thing that allows power-consumers to thrive? I.E. what folks are now using FriendFeed for?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
I don't know what Twitter Inc hopes to become. I think it's service would be as facilitator. i just don't know what it should facilitate. So far it looks like they're facilitating things for celebs.
- phil baumann
@Marshall: certainly there will be missteps. I am more interested in how they respond and what they do to fix those mistakes. In the dev world, errors happen all the time. HOW they respond to such mistakes, I think, are where we see what will become of Twitter. (And by open, I meant opening the architecture, not open information - I am more concerned by the dearth of usable Twitter applications than the @ fiasco)
- Brad_King
Marshall - why does it matter if they follow you? How many of the people who have subscribed to your work, retweeted your tweets, etc. do you follow back? Or are you concerned they aren't even paying attention to what's being written about them?
- phil baumann
Brad - good points I think. The response to the @ deal was pretty bad, though. And really, it is a loss of important opportunities to connect with new people on the service.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
They don't use the tool like we do. When the @replies flap happened, I checked @ev and @biz's accounts. Combined they'd only posted three tweets in 24 hours.
- Aaron B. Hockley
Hey Marshall, why don't you start by following back the other 7,000 people on your list? yah, there ya go! ;^)
- Michael Bailey
Phil, yes that is the case. I'm worried about them not listening to what their community of users says about the service.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
to me it appears that all twitter inc cares about is their exit, not the stability or scalability of their product nor the thoughtful analysis of most anyone interested in offering advice
- mike "glemak" dunn
As I understand it, it's as much an engineering issue as it is a marketing/usability one.
- Steve O'Hear
Steve, except that a number of the twitter devs also did not know that the @reply change had happened and advocated internally to reverse it
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Marshall, your point is well taken. I'm not adverse to asymmetrical follows; I think it's prudent if track is used in connection with it. I'm with Ken here -- I think they're just in pedal-to-the-metal-build-market-share mode. This wouldn't bother me if they had one person -- one employee -- who had the task of interfacing with the community; representing twitter, engaging in conversation. I even offered to do it for free...they didn't notice. :) In some circles, it's called community management. :)
- Karoli
:) Michael, fwiw, I follow about 100 times more people than anyone who works at Twitter does. Karoli, that's a fair point.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Marshall - I have the same concern. It doesn't appear that they're listening. It's ironic that they have a great platform to interface with their followers/fans but don't seem to in a creative, enthusiastic way. In fact, the recent communications seemed to have been sarcastic.
- phil baumann
Marshall, yeah I see that. I think that everyone should use http://mobatalk.com since I'm just one guy doing it all by myself, debt up to my eyes, I care about our community, and nobody seems to care.
- Michael Bailey
Not to change the subject, but can we talk about how in the same week Twitter messes with Replies, Tumblr launched another 'dumb down' feature called "Tumblarity" that seems to do the same thing: and that is discourage conversation and encourage people to pump out 'viral' content that appeals to the widest/lowest denominator.
- Mark Schoneveld
Michael - I'll have to tweet that out.
- phil baumann
It's really funny when everyone thought that "Tom" made myspace - what a bunch of marketing crap - here's a guy who really is doing it by himself and there's nobody talking about it.
- Michael Bailey
Thanks @phil
- Michael Bailey
sorry Marshall, I didn't mean to come in here and hijack your conversation - leaving now....
- Michael Bailey
Marshall: Twitter has been like this for a long time. Why do you think I'm pushing Friendfeed so hard for the past 16 months?
- Robert Scoble
Scoble, you aren't even "on" friendfeed - I've tried having a conversation w/you there. You just pump feeds into it.
- Michael Bailey
I'm wondering what Twitter, Inc. would look like if it had FF peeps running things. Just a speculative question.
- phil baumann
I do think that they are strategically NOT listening to the tech press. Which is actually pretty smart to some extent. That way they focus on the bigger world and don't worry about getting on TechCrunch or in RWW.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, they don't have to listen to the tech press. However, they ought to be listening to their community. Proactively.
- Karoli
I agree w Robert, it would be smarter to NOT listen to the fishbowl
- Michael Bailey
Michael, you mean except for Scoble's 21000 comments and 18000 likes on friendfeed?
- Christopher Galtenberg
Christopher, no that's not what I mean at all.
- Michael Bailey
Michael: what the hell are you talking about? I'm here almost all day long and have TONS of conversations with people.
- Robert Scoble
Anyway, back to valuable points, like Marshall's
- Christopher Galtenberg
Perhaps NOW you are here (I don't come around often much anymore) - it's not important. No arguments needed.
- Michael Bailey
i agree with scoble....i have been moving to friendfeed because it a) lets me piece the conversation about my company together and b) has an infrastructure that actually works. if you could get all your twitter followers to friendfeed, why would you even need twitter?
- Crackle
Scalability and performance had to be central to their decision making. Removing features (@) doesn't make sense. You've got to wonder why they didn't go down the path that Jive took and look to move toward virtualization technology. A partnership with Amazon should be a no brainer since Bezos is on the board. Not enough cash maybe?
- Kim Feraday
Michael: it's funny. You only have commented here 33 times. Who the hell are you to tell me that I don't have conversations here?
- Robert Scoble
Thanks Christopher, next time just punch me in the face.
- Michael Bailey
Twitter's advantage is only the number of people already signed up. It's a subset of friendfeed.
- Brent Logan
Robert's got a great point about listening to the tech crowd. I just get the sense that Twitter may not be leading the service a path that maximizes what Twitter is worth (if anything). What's Twitter's vision?
- phil baumann
Bait is bait, Robert. You bit. conversation derailed. one of my fundamental objections to the flat thread is how easily a thread can be hijacked.
- Karoli
"Hey Robert - are you up for some beta testing in about 10 days or so? April 6" - that's the only one I was talking about.
- Michael Bailey
Phil: And again, I repeat...Twitter doesn't have to listen to the techies. It *does* need to listen to the community, interact, and respond, proactively.
- Karoli
Karoli: yeah, I'm thinking of blocking Michael. He's obviously an asshole to say something like that. So I missed his message. Geesh.
- Robert Scoble
Twitter is bigger, faster, and more high profile than anything the management team has done before, and their own personal celebrity seems to have become the growth engine instead of the users behavior and ideas. New users is fine, but retention is going to be critical to be valuable. I think they need to say no to a few PR invitations and possibly and adult supervisor to bring them back to reality. Maybe that's already in the works...
- Nancy King
Karoli - whatever, but before you do, take notice of what a "closed loop" you are making this seem like. No wonder nobody wants to come in here.
- Michael Bailey
Karoli - agree about the listening to community. Not necessarily act on what users think they want, but listen at some level. At least not alienate those who might be useful to their growth.
- phil baumann
Troll
- Christopher Galtenberg
It's all great that Ev and Biz built something successful, but I think it's time they hand it off to some folks who can manage it properly.
- Aaron B. Hockley
JFC, now I am an asshole?
- Michael Bailey
oh snap, Marshall! My guess is 3.
- jeannie christensen
MK, My experience is that my outlook is blasted as crazy or simply misunderstood. The platforms which will continue on the web are the ones which serve the Elite who control most things on this earth. Twitter as currently configured gives the little man too much power, and will be brought under control so as to be useful to a small number of people.
- bill giltner
Michael: yes. When you call me out for missing a single direct message on a series of days when traffic was extraordinarily high you are an asshole. If you really cared you would have tried again.
- Robert Scoble
Michael: especially when I have 18,000 comments here and you only have 33.
- Robert Scoble
@Scoble, Michael: Take the pissing somewhere else. We were discussing Twitter.
- Brad_King
Marshall, Jeannie's back on track: how many are following you? Out of curiosity.
- phil baumann
i suggest that friendfeed's comment strings have the "thumbs up" "thumbs down" feature similar to youtube to help keep the conversation on track and hide irrelevant comments
- Crackle
great advice, shall I forward the emal and the DM that I followed up with?
- Michael Bailey
ok Brad, sorry - I get a bit upset when people call me names. Sorry, let's move along.
- Michael Bailey
From an engineering standpoint, I agree with the new @replies rules.
- Michael Bailey
Brad: sorry for getting off topic here.
- Robert Scoble
maybe most of us have less than 10k followers, but there are enough "big ones" now and that creates a lot of database pressure
- Michael Bailey
TWO. that's the answer, that was first comment I left. Lead scientist and Rael D. are following me on Twitter, that is all. It's not about me, really, though. It's about listening and participating.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
@Aaron: there's a long valley tradition of that. Michael Lewis wrote a good book, The New, New Thing, about Jim Clark's role trying to transition from start-up to company. (Lewis was a prof of mine in grad school). It offers some interesting insights on what founders go through trying to take their "Blood" and turn it into a community use project. I think Twitter is simply going through this crossroads transition.
- Brad_King
@Michael, Scoble: We still love everyone. Sidetracks happen :)
- Brad_King
Phil, lots of issues could have been headed off at the pass with someone talking to the community at large. Example: API throttling. Most users saw it as a power play rather than a necessity. What the twitter dudes don't get is that their community isn't just geeks and celebs. Lots of regular folk who are trying to get it.
- Karoli
from BuddyFeed
right, @tropical, yet those @ replies still had to be sorted through
- Michael Bailey
Twitter's employees don't use Twitter the way we want them to, Marshall. Have you taken a look at any of their favorite tweet streams? There is a story there. :)
- Louis Gray
Who thinks Twitter right now is being used the way it was originally intended (whatever that was)?
- phil baumann
original intent? hell no, they didn't even know what it was going to be used for.
- Michael Bailey
Marshall, they don't seem to be very plugged in. http://twitter.100twt.com/
- Dave Winer
I guess it really doesn't matter what we say in here, Twitter still has $55MM sitting around
- Michael Bailey
Their original intent has evolved. that's what happens when you open something up to the community. No single developer can imagine every application for something this simple. Twitter+mobile=gamechanger. Still, there are lessons to learn from MySpace, Friendster, etc. that they don't appear to have learned.
- Karoli
Until a real community ponies up some cash for membership, any new service is always going to be looking for an exit, and in doing so will fuck over the very community which made it what it is.
- Michael Bailey
@Dave If I had to guess I'd say they are quite well plugged in, just not into the "tech crowd" or their own service. But they do quite well generating lots of talk in the world outside of Silicon valley. They've clearly made a choice to ignore this space.
- Alexander van Elsas
I believe the future of micro-blogging as we know it today with all followers seeing all posts is only sustainable in a defined group.
- Pierre-Armand Lalonde
Michael: see your friendfeed account, I'm talking to you on your other message.
- Robert Scoble
@Alexender: Ignore may be too harsh. The reality is the digerati are a small subset of who any company needs to reach. They are simply ALSO listening to other people (is my guess). We don't get our way all the time just because we were here first. (Which isn't to say I don't want my way too.)
- Brad_King
just to be clear again: I'm just using this as a data point re listening to conversations about the twitter technology, not saying I'm in any way entitled to be followed by anyone. fwiw, though, I do have more followers than all but like 5 or 6 of the 47 people on twitter staff and I talk about twitter all the time. so community members find my tweets interesting, just not the ppl i'm tweeting about.
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Dave Winer: is that stream twitter employees only? could it be true that one of them doesn't know what friendfeed is?
- Karoli
Karoli - and I guess that's what I'm trying to get at. If you invent something without knowing how far it might go (that is, not having a vision), how do you lead the venture? Is something like Twitter even "leadable"? Or will Twitter turn out to be too fundamental a service to be a business venture?
- phil baumann
Marshall: you are not the only one to notice that Twitter's staff isn't participating in the community. Here's another test. Why is Oprah recommended to me to follow? Why isn't someone like Leo Laporte recommended? Or Dave Winer? Both have been using Twitter a lot longer.
- Robert Scoble
Robert - it appears that Twitter's going for the celebrity market, whatever that'll look like. If that's the case, it doesn't seem to be a very creative vision.
- phil baumann
Or, even worse, Twitter recommends to me to follow a cat, which is obviously a fake account. Why should I follow a cat and not Leo Laporte?
- Robert Scoble
I was the 10,280th person to start using Twitter - recommend me
- Michael Bailey
Phil, that's where community is the critical piece, which goes to Marshall's point. If they are not part of the community *they* created, should we worry? I think, yes, we should. Ignoring community means they don't understand their own product.
- Karoli
Robert, the Twitter team is not following early adopters or the developer community. But the Twitter team does follow the celebs. It's clear what they want to be when they grow up.
- Louis Gray
@Robert you know that is because they are on steroids. Growth is more important than user value. An old web 2.0 flaw ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
Twitter is simply the first [service] to offer this new [technology]. as Dan York says, we didn't know we were missing a medium until Twitter showed us. That's exciting. But it's silly to think we'll all use this one Web site in the future, or a different Web site like FriendFeed. Frustrated Twitterati can _now_ take their µblog to their own domain and start collecting followers there...
more...
- Brian Hendrickson
Nail.on.head - Louis Gray
- Matthew DeVries
Ah, so the message is that the only community that matters is the celebrity crowd. ("in crowd" refrains ringing here...)
- Karoli
Karoli: celebrities are important to generate hype. It's a brilliant strategy. But one that I think will ultimately leave Twitter wanting.
- Robert Scoble
No any community that can gather 1M followers in week :)
- Pierre-Armand Lalonde
Brian Hendrickson: Until they all talk to each other (and they don't right now), they're not relevant. I am a hard-core Identica denizen, but since there's no bridge from twitter back to identica, i don't use it as much. Why? Because the majority of those I call "community" are on Twitter. My social graph is there.
- Karoli
oh, at the core it all boils down to OCD and Ego's
- Michael Bailey
Robert, celebrities are a handful of people. There are millions using Twitter. They seriously cannot manage a handful of celebs and still listen to the larger community?
- Karoli
At some point, people who are spending VC money will need to stop being looked at as "leaders" or "visonaries" and we'll need to start talking about people who are actually making this medium pay-off.
- Michael Bailey
Karoli: well, they do have other things to do too like make their servers work. It's impressive that they've been able to keep the service mostly up and running.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, my point (and it will sound self-serving but I mean it in a much more general way), is that out of 47 employees, not one is tasked with monitoring and interfacing with the community. That strikes me as poor business.
- Karoli
@Karoli Twitter execs don't need to follow or listen to anyone as their service grows like crazy without any effort on their side. It's a short term winning strategy, but severely flawed as pointed out here. Question is do they really care? Evidence seems to be pointing towards "don't care"
- Alexander van Elsas
Alexander: agree.
- Karoli
Alexander - it does appear they don't care. Which begs the question: why do we care? :)
- phil baumann
@Karoli my self-serving counterpoint would be something like "I spent 11,000 hours developing a system based on the community feedback, and now nobody cares" so I don't blame Twitter for NOT listening.
- Michael Bailey
the "community" is real quick to say things like "follow your passion" or "don't give up" and yet when someone actually sticks it out and makes the technology work, those same people are nowhere to be found.
- Michael Bailey
@Karoli there is a bridge http://tw2omb.singpolyma.net/ and my software has the client feature but i'm revamping it at the moment, and I believe identi.ca/evan is working on it for Laconica
- Brian Hendrickson
Just because they are not following doesn't mean they are not listening. There are plenty of way to mine the data without having a huge following list.
- WorldofHiglet
@WorldofHiglet: well said!
- Brad_King
I care because in essence I have always felt Twitter was a GREAT service. That feeling is disappearing fast now that I am forced to pay attention to 95% spam/traffic account following notifications. Takes away all the fun in discovering new people. I will be forced to mark Twitter e-mail notifications as spam, and that is a FAIL for what used to be a great service.
- Alexander van Elsas
Michael, I understand the frustration. But twitter has the user base to justify some modicum of community management.
- Karoli
@Karoli agreed on the user base, but mixing their technology with the ego-serving attitude of a vocal-minority doesn't work out well.
- Michael Bailey
Alexander - ditto
- phil baumann
Like I said in another thread, Twitter is evolving. They're evolving into a finely tuned organism optimized to add users at the fastest possible rate with the smallest possible footprint and the minimum amount of engineering effort and infrastructure investment.
- Ken Sheppardson
I am far more concerned abt the lack of good Twitter Apps and of a user-interface that allows me to *easily* go through my list of followers, form groups, delete and block, recategorize by location (for when I travel), ect. Those are the user tools that would be *most* beneficial, I think.
- Brad_King
WorldofHiglet actions speak louder than words. Not once has Twitter demonstrated that they had the first clue what the community at large was doing or how they were using the service, nor have they indicated that they care.
- Karoli
@karoli, those are the 47 Twitter employees in the article that came out last week. And you can tell what they're tuned into by what they talk about, same as anyone else. They don't really talk about much, themselves, they aren't even conversing. I don't think they're following celebs, I don't think they're following anyone. That's just how it looks from reading the conversation.
- Dave Winer
@davewiner it's astounding that one of them doesn't know what friendfeed is.
- Karoli
@brad_king I could build that, no problem.
- Michael Bailey
Here's another bit of data. I did two of these at the same time, one for the people of the NYT on Twitter and the other for the people of Twitter on Twitter. The Times peoplel discovered my thing within 5 minutes (they noticed when the bot followed them) and they were talking about it immediately, and exchanging theories on what it was. As far as I can tell, the Twitter folk don't yet know we're listening to them.
- Dave Winer
@karoli I know lots of people that do not know what Friendfeed is. That is a Silicon valley attitude ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
@Michael: what I've suggested isn't rocket science of course. I think it's instructive that twitter (and many 2.0 companies) have overlooked the basics of usability. Would love to see those apps get built.
- Brad_King
Dave - that seems to tell us something. So, are they not listening with a purpose/strategy, or just plain old not listening?
- phil baumann
@Brad of course, none of this is rocket science, hell even rocket science itself isn't that difficult - I'm agreeing with you that those features in an app would be beneficial. Be warned however, that the "basics of usability" will be trumped if it doesn't readily serve one's ego.
- Michael Bailey
Knowing human nature, Phil, it's probably the latter. It probably never occurred to them to listen.
- Dave Winer
@Phil: Or, might I suggest a third alternative, they are simply not listening to *you*
- Brad_King
Whereas the Times hires people whose profession is to be curious about WTF is going on.
- Dave Winer
Yeah @Phil, that's probably true (what Brad said). Heck even Dave Winer doesn't listen to me, why would the Twitter folkeratti? ;^)
- Michael Bailey
@Brad - Oh I'm sure they're not. And I don't blame them in that case.:)
- phil baumann
Marshall, are you still here?
- Michael Bailey
@Phil: hahaha!
- Brad_King
Dave Winer popularized recipient-controlled distribution, Jack Dorsey made it 2-way and realtime on a single domain, Evan Prodromou created a way for any site to join a realtime 2-way network.
- Brian Hendrickson
Alexander: When a service is built on your product, it seems to me worthwhile to know it exists. When it's one that wins things like Techcrunch 50, it especially seems worthwhile to be aware of its existence.
- Karoli
Well yeah, but even RSS which was supposed to provide a "summary" ended up shipping the entire contents of a site around the web. Nobody could expect Twitter to anticipate how their system would be used. Nobody can do that.
- Michael Bailey
What a great conversation. looking forward to catching up when I get back from work in the lab.
- Brad_King
okay, I lost the post about identi.ca and laconica...but the identi.ca bridge only goes *to* twitter. It needs a lane going the other way...twitter to identi.ca. [EDIT] Found the post, thanks for the link. First I knew this existed!
- Karoli
Michael - and I suppose anyone with that kind of visionary powers wouldn't be courting Kelso.
- phil baumann
@phil, yeah, and if you find them, invest on my behalf, would ya? ;^)
- Michael Bailey
Yes, I had a crude tweet-pulling client working in my OMB, now fixing it. and @singpolyma wrote the bridge I linked to but I haven't tried it yet, and @evan is getting a lot of requests and I spoke to him briefly about it in San Francisco and it seemed a possibility depending on licensing
- Brian Hendrickson
Even if we could bring in the top 2,500 Twitter users and ask them for a concise list of all the features of a "killer app" it wouldn't be done. Way too many ideas and implementations for a single app.
- Michael Bailey
Yes but when there is a good open source "clone" written in a fast-to-develop language then people will start creating new iterations of this medium
- Brian Hendrickson
@Karoli I think that people living outside the Silicon Valley bubble have never heard of TechCrunch or FF. It may be interesting, it's also true that we tend to find things much more important than the rest of the world. They can do without a service like FF and still live happy ever after ;-)
- Alexander van Elsas
we don't need a fast-to-develop language (RoR didn't scale, nor will any others). We need people who understand programming, low-overhead, efficient methods, etc.
- Michael Bailey
It's "programming" - it's not supposed to be easy.
- Michael Bailey
not for a network of millions of microblogs, you're thinking of scaling silos which is different
- Brian Hendrickson
Just checked out Dave's link. The two tweets about Friendfeed are unbelievable
- Jamie
how would those microblogs be connected, if not via a few silos?
- Michael Bailey
there are at least 3 implementations right now of the http://openmicroblogging.org specification for site-to-site microblogging. 1: Laconica 2: OpenMicroBlogger 3: A wordpress plugin called nsw or something. And the Jaiku team has been actively improving the specification.
- Brian Hendrickson
the protocol is just OAuth with a couple of fields added, and it's push-based so there is no polling
- Brian Hendrickson
oh, sounds like a modified pingback structure
- Michael Bailey
it lets people [Follow] you in realtime using a simple push. if you were microblogging at microblog.michaelbailey.com and you had 7,000 people at identi.ca following you, your message would be POSTed one time to that server. if 4,000 people at Leo's army.twit.tv were following you, your server would do a 2nd POST to deliver the notice/status to that community.
- Brian Hendrickson
also, thinking outloud, and a few steps ahead, there'll eventually need to be a "registration" list maintained someplace to facilitate the discovery of what sites I could push to, which is a silo
- Michael Bailey
all instances of OpenMicroBlogger ping a central search server with the URL of each status, and the search feature uses that central server, so that will facilitate discovery, but yes the other thing a "registration" list would do is make the [Follow] process more streamlined, right now you have to copy/paste a URL to follow someone on a site where you have not registered.
- Brian Hendrickson
well, lessons learned from RSS were that people were quick no navigate to the early content aggregators, rather than wondering around looking for individual sites, so the issue of scaling the silo will remain - but, it does sound interesting and I'll look forward to watching it mature.
- Michael Bailey
how many Twitterati would choose blogger.com over self-hosted wordpress? people are definitely interested in this, check out the download count of the #1 software package here http://open.srcphp.com/#top_co...
- Brian Hendrickson
Brian: I think that analogy's distorted a bit. I'd say it's more a question of how many people would install their own email server.
- Ken Sheppardson
off to a good start, but I don't think the first 25,000 will really count, and there's a ways to go for that.
- Michael Bailey
And let me just say that I for one like how FriendFeed comment streams are flat, and the converation wanders all over the map to things that are completely unrelated to the entry, but they always tend to come back on track. It's an actual conversaion, not some explosion of nested comment conversation fragments.
- Ken Sheppardson
agreed - what ken just said ;)
- mike "glemak" dunn
Ken - well put. An acid trip that brings you back home.
- phil baumann
Ken: openmicroblogger has friendfeed-style vertical comment threads, it also has comet-push for realtime for both notices and comments.
- Brian Hendrickson
@Ken agreed - nested replies are only good in theory ;^)
- Michael Bailey
Ken: email servers are private, microblogs are simply easier blogs. i've created 700 or so posts in my 1.5 years of microblogging
- Brian Hendrickson
See, like that there. I don't know what the heck openmicroblogger has to do with anything, but I'll defend to the death your right to sidetrack the converation by talking about it ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
haha thanks
- Brian Hendrickson
I would guess that it will find it's niche, but like opml it will remain too convoluted for the masses.
- Michael Bailey
you can run openmicroblogger on a GoDaddy host, i've done it
- Brian Hendrickson
in the early days of email - back when all data was passed using UUCP (i.e. before the internet) email servers were exactly "public" in so much as if you had the UUCP bang path you could send anyone a message
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
I mean, heck, people still hit reply all and then say oooops
- Michael Bailey
it's only until scaling issues hit that forced smtp to be created
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
LOL heck Mike, I still remember doing archie searches
- Michael Bailey
evan's protocol will surely hit some scaling problems if it becomes popular. xmpp has all of that covered of course and is speedy as hell, but not so easy to host yourself. I installed erlang and checked out punjab and it's all very cool.
- Brian Hendrickson
yes, microbologging over xmpp is in a lot of ways at the same stage as html over http was at when apache was created
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
mike and mike killing the conversation with talk of UUCP and Archie - doh!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
*crickets*
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken the reason i'm making noise over here is because people don't realize they can collect their followers and their content in their own database, and that they can "manage" their social network the way they manage their blog.
- Brian Hendrickson
status.net and twitteronia will help move the conversation along i think
- Brian Hendrickson
or maybe it's not that they don't realize it, it's that they don't care :-)
- Brian Hendrickson
It may just be that the logic leap between "Twitter doesn't seem to be listening to me" and "Go get a server and build your own Twitter" is a little too much for most people. :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
don't "build a twitter", just microblog from a service that is part of a network, or install a microblog on your own site. identi.ca makes the former trivial. openmicroblogger makes the latter trivial.
- Brian Hendrickson
Karoli, I agree that they need to do lot more of this but Twitter does have people like @crystal doing community mgmt on Get Satisfaction.
- Mike Doeff
As the developer of openmicroblogger, you might have a slightly different definition of "trivial" than the typical disenfranchised Twitter user, Brian. ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
oh I dunno - the reality of that is it is too disconnected - when all the the microfeeds are pulled in, and I go to leave a comment, I expect a pretty rapid response - but in actual use, the person pushing the data out isn't even "there".
- Michael Bailey
I get responses days or sometimes weeks after leaving a comment, then I'm like "huh? oh yeah, I've moved on"
- Michael Bailey
of course, were I an A-Lister, I'd be all for it, because as long as my "message" gets pushed out to all platforms, I don't really care about engaging in conversation
- Michael Bailey
as search is developed on the http://openmicroblogging.org network of microblogs, you'll be able to see replies on other hosts more easily, and for the next version of the protocol there will be an attempt to allow @replies between sites but it will be tricky to keep the spammers out.
- Brian Hendrickson
which will no doubt turn into a full-time job and degrade the service and then when you take steps to keep them out, you'll piss off your community - wait, are we talking about Twitter now? lol
- Michael Bailey
Let's just create OOAPI, the open openAPI
- Michael Bailey
well, it seems to have died in here, thanks for the great conversation (and I'll overlook the name calling and bashing...Robert) ;^)
- Michael Bailey
the community already has a choice of several pieces of software. but yes thanks for the conversation Michael and Ken and Mike and Mike ;) happy microblogging
- Brian Hendrickson
this thread officially has reached its quota of mikes - justsayn ;)
- mike "glemak" dunn
The fact that this conversation is happening over at FriendFeed (and could never exist on Twitter) is pretty telling in itself. It's hard to get excited about Twitter. In fact, I see less and less value in the service as time goes by. I wonder if they can deliver in the near future.
- Kevin Pruett
*mike threshold now officially surpassed* I'm 5 hours late to the party, but just planting a post-it note that says High density of information, Return here sometime. And I whole-heartily agree with Ken's single-level threads work best on ff. Were there a scattering of sub-branching comments, it would be akin to shuttling around one or two people in/out of a side rooms for a chat when a...
more...
- Micah Wittman
yes agreed, i love the single level threading of ff as well
- mike "glemak" dunn
yay! my name is not mike! :) interesting post and long thread! ;) though I'm naturally biased about 'tree'-threading, I like to have the option to list or thread if I want. Oddly enough, I'm building something which isn't a million miles *between* twitter and friendfeed (on top of a phreadz platform). </plug> - back to the topic though, 2/47 isn't bad for a journo: even less of them follow the developers who have actually built interesting/useful/unexpected/valuable things on their platform.
- kosso
speaking from experience eh kosso - i for one am glad to call you an honorary mike ;)
- mike "glemak" dunn
I've only seen a tiny bit of video of the twitter founders - there's not much charisma and there's something else I can't put my finger on. Probably it's that "normal introverts" look arrogant under the "sudden darling" media spotlight.
- Richard ¿digame? Walker
How generations change: my son, tonight, after seeing something new from Google told the team "I'm not like my dad, I don't have a web site."
Milton Ramirez, Nicholas James, Hutch Carpenter and 77 other people liked this
This is from a 15-year-old who is very expert with world of warcraft, has a MySpace page, a Twitter account, a friendfeed account, is very active on Mac Rumors, etc.
- Robert Scoble
He is on more of the Internet than probably 9 out of 10 humans alive and he defines himself to a Google team by not owning a web site. Interesting.
- Robert Scoble
you should make one for him.
- Alfredo
Making websites is time consuming and, in my opinion, not necessary if you simply need a place to publish to the web, talk with friends and get yourself out there.
- Brandon Titus
Renting vs owning in real estate terms?
- Micah Wittman
Alfredo: the unspoken message is that his generation doesn't need a web site. They'll still be a major part of the Internet.
- Robert Scoble
Its the same with my younger relatives... They have a far more natural approach to the new media "So do you kids use the Internet regulary?" - "No..... Not that much?" - "So what do you do when you go online" - "facebook, youtube, myspace, for school, for work..." - "how often do you check facebook?" - "hmmm few times A day"
- Andreas Klinger
How many teenagers want to (admit to) be like their dad?
- Rob Michael (Atmos Trio)
It took me back to how I found my doctor. She's #1 on Yelp but yet had never been there. The world is changing and it no longer is only about having a website.
- Robert Scoble
Rob: there's some of that in what he was trying to say, yes. His generation wants to be "more with it" than the previous. But I think there's something deeper going on. The 2010 Web isn't about owning a web site anymore.
- Robert Scoble
He'll change his tune when someone with his name does something controversial and it's #1 on Google.
- Mark
Sounds like the teenager asked by Don Tapscott ("Wikinomics") about why she was not using email to communicate with friends. Reply: "Hmm ... email. That would be the sort of thing you'd use to send a thank you letter ... to your friend's ... parents!"
- John W Lewis
Mark: have you checked how fast friendfeed items are showing up on Google lately? I have. You don't need a blog or a web site to be on Google anymore.
- Robert Scoble
John: exactly.
- Robert Scoble
I think that domains will become mostly for business and the like while personal profiles will be controlled by social networks, profile sites (Google profiles) etc.
- Brandon Titus
@Robert maybe - or maybe it's about owning an identity you control which may indeed look like a website but function as an identity broker owned by the user
- Chris Saad
Some one still has to create the websites though. :-)
- Jesse Stay
Can I get out of making a website for my teenage son with these arguments?
- Anita Hunt
Chris: translation: own a Facebook profile. ;-)
- Robert Scoble
But does the _you_ own the Facebook profile?
- Micah Wittman
Your son has probably realized that most personal websites are never seen.
- Trine Curtis
I too agree that the new generations do not need a web site. What they need instead is a presence on this Interweb. This can be achieve in many other more effective means than a personal web site; in the traditional sense.
- Vinko
If you want to seed control of the social web to facebook then sure. Or maybe the next generation identity hub will be as distributed and open as a web-server
- Chris Saad
I have more ego than he. I'll be damned if I'm going to let Facebook own me and my profile. meh.
- Karoli
Micah makes a good point about renting vs owning. Also, some people just want communication, others will want permanence (that they own and control). I still suspect that as new generations age they will still want to create more of a legacy on their own domains.
- LogEx
Or does Facebook own it (in the possession is 9/10 of the law sense)
- Micah Wittman
It's the difference between having a web presences and a website... Just because I don't own my home doesn't mean I'm not a citizen.
- Johnny Worthington
It was never about having a website. It never will be. It will always will be using the right tools to reach the right people. People that you care about and people that care about you.
- Akshay Dodeja
Chris: his real identity is on MySpace. That's where his friends hang out and he's asked me not to link to his MySpace profile. Why not? Cause then all "my friends" will show up there. :-)
- Robert Scoble
It's all about getting the most out of the web. If your own website doesn't do it but a Facebook profile does, then by all means don't do your own website. Marketing still isn't dead though - act on results.
- Jesse Stay
The new generation's presence on the web will be fluid. They will not have one place where they blog, post photos or share their thoughts. It will transform as the technology transform.
- Vinko
Akshay: exactly. That was his message to me. Plus there was a tinge of "that blogging thing is so dead." Heheh.
- Robert Scoble
MySpace, Facebook, these are all nice walled gardens like AOL before them - but eventually the rest of the web will become just as rich and inviting as the walled gardens - and not because Facebook Connect.
- Chris Saad
Facebook Connect is a great proof of concept, but the real solution will be based on open standards just like the web is based on TCP/IP and HTTP
- Chris Saad
Chris: Facebook will be forced to open up. Why? Because Google will show them the money is in search and to do search, even in the real time web, you need to open up.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, sounds like there's an opportunity to show him why it could be useful, if not now, perhaps in the future for him.
- Jesse Stay
We'll be ripe for a backlash in a few years, especially if services don't keep moving in the direction of data portability.
- LogEx
Robert: I have tried to many times to start a blog. Failed each and every time. Now I am trying different things and its working in some ways :)
- Akshay Dodeja
Actually it's friendfeed that's going to show them that, but Google will be recognized by most of the world and Google definitely is moving to make sure that they are a player in the real time web.
- Robert Scoble
No Facebook will open up because Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and others are working actively to dilute their lock on the social graph. It's in google's interest to continue to erode Facebooks monopoly so they can continue to index the social web
- Chris Saad
Chris: sorry, that's a side show. The real action is going to happen in search. Or, something associated with filtered display.
- Robert Scoble
The community has an opportunity to work with the 'loosers' and the startups to ensure that we don't crown a new king, but rather to push the web as the ultimate platform
- Chris Saad
Facebook only competes with Google on the private web. Until they offer indexed, public search they will never be able to compete side-by-side with Google. They only offer a subset of what Google provides right now.
- Jesse Stay
Awesome to see this conversation in "real time"
- David Damore
Chris: the REAL money is NOT on the social graph. I can see this so clearly. Very few can, though.
- Robert Scoble
@robert the real money is (imho) not in search but in knowing about the user - search is just yet the best way to know about him/her - facebook could deliever social enhanced adwords to the internet
- Andreas Klinger
I'm not arguing about that - but if Facebook was left unchecked then they could own the new social search and monetizing the user not the page. That's why Google will work hard to erode Facebook's monopoly to ensure they stay in the game
- Chris Saad
Andreas: that's what search looks like in the future.
- Robert Scoble
Chris: true, but Google is NOT going to leave Facebook unchecked. Facebook needs to move much faster than it is, actually.
- Robert Scoble
@Robert the real value is in the stream and being able to index it - which Google can't do with the Facebook feed
- Chris Saad
Users are not monetizeable, by the way. Intent and other "about to consume" gestures are. I want an icecream is monetizeable. Eating an ice cream is not.
- Robert Scoble
Eating chocolate icecream every wed IS
- Chris Saad
It means you like dairy, chocolate and sweets on wed
- Chris Saad
APML.org
- Chris Saad
@ Chris Saad: +1
- David Damore
@Robert "i know you could now want an ice cream" is worth even more imho
- Andreas Klinger
Chris: that's an "about to consume" gesture. Agreed. :-)
- Robert Scoble
The real value is in being able to index the *entire* web, and knowing each user that is searching that entire web. Facebook isn't anywhere near being able to do that.
- Jesse Stay
Andreas: or, if you are Gary Vaynerchuk you can make me want a merlot-flavored ice cream. That's worth the most. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Robert: :)
- Andreas Klinger
Jesse: Facebook has an index that Google can't get to and it pisses off Google.
- Robert Scoble
@Robert Look forward to debating this with u in person tmr at 6pm
- Chris Saad
Isn't the idea of social profiles a search to figure out what a user wants next, now? Like how people visit car websites before buying an automobile?
- David Damore
Robert, Google has many indexes Facebook can't get to as well - Gmail, Orkut, Docs, Apps, many more...
- Jesse Stay
But wait, surely he does have a web site, a blog, etc.? They are his Facebook page!
- John W Lewis
@Jesse which is why Google, Yahoo, Microsoft etc are still in the game - the notion that 'Facebook has won' is just valley hype
- Chris Saad
With the kind of information that Google is tracking isn't Google in the best place to monetize our conversations?
- Vinko
There are 2 things we're talking about here - the "private web" and the "public web". Facebook has one. Google has both.
- Jesse Stay
No we're talking about the document web vs. the Social web :)
- Chris Saad
Chris, Google has both of those as well.
- Jesse Stay
@Jesse agreed - Google is still going very strong - and should/will buy FF and Twitter to strengthen their position
- Chris Saad
I dont like facebook, to me its a lot of social drama...
- sergio luna
Jesse: Google's Infos about the Socialgraphs are too fuzzy. Gmail is like my telephone calllist - not my telephone adressbook
- Andreas Klinger
Chris, or, just strengthen one of their existing products to compete. Google Chat stands out to me.
- Jesse Stay
Andreas you should see my Google Voice address book. It wouldn't take much to connect that all together.
- Jesse Stay
@Andreas Google's graphs are super active. Noise for google = pointers to the signal - that's what they do best
- Chris Saad
Short question: am i the only one thinking that Social Widgets (Facebook Apps at external Sites) combined with an Advert System is an most interesting thing to come ?
- Andreas Klinger
@Jesse their best bet is Gmail and Address book integrated with FriendFeed
- Chris Saad
I don't like Facebook either. Now people I thought I'd left behind 20 years ago are finding me again. Yay. But more importantly, someone said ice cream.
- Trine Curtis
Jesse: Yet, in my network, Skype Chat is much more widely used than Google Chat.
- John W Lewis
Chris, agreed - there's a reason Facebook, Twitter, and FriendFeed all let you import your Gmail contacts. They want Google's private web.
- Jesse Stay
@Andreas No you're not - If Facebook owns the social graph/stream then they will try to own the widgets and ad units - that's why the rest of the web needs to provide a viable alternative so that there is no new monopoly.
- Chris Saad
I think that Google will strengthen it's social system by bringing in contact finding through the social graph from services like FriendFeed, Twitter, and maybe Facebook and clearing out the noise. Their contact manager or whatever will be strengthened once they have a real Google Chat, Google Voice, and Gmail working together.
- Brandon Titus
I love coming over to FriendFeed to always see an amazingly active thread going on in the Scobleverse!!
- Jason Pollock
in my network microsoft msn is the leader...neither skype or google chat are as strong
- sergio luna
John, I'm talking about strength of the social graph in each one. Skype doesn't hold a finger to Google's contacts.
- Jesse Stay
All of these platforms have their advantages - the point is they are all social services and should inter operate for the benefit of the user - and benefit the bottom line of the companies that make it happen
- Chris Saad
Sergio, agreed - Microsoft also has a very big potential to compete. I'd say they're more a threat to Google than Facebook right now in this area.
- Jesse Stay
(Meta-point: this conversation IS the live web in action, but how does it scale? What happens to the quality of conversation if the rate of commenting on this topic exceeds my reading speed?)
- John W Lewis
Then again, in the competition for people, once you're indexing every person with web access, you also have access to their lives, websites, and personal data. That's much more powerful than an anonymous index of every website on the planet. Facebook could have a chance.
- Jesse Stay
This conversation is a byproduct of the the live web - but it's not much more than an indexable chatroom. The status updates and feeds that generate this conversation are the real interesting part
- Chris Saad
@Jesse that's Facebook's play - and that's why Google and others are working to dilute the monopoly (a monopoly of mindshare at least) - that's why the community at large has an opportunity to support an open approach
- Chris Saad
During times of change, we have an opportunity to ensure the outcome is open - open means innovation can surge ahead at the nodes instead of being controlled by a central authority
- Chris Saad
Chris, at the same time indexing each individual rather than website could be more advantageous in the end. Google's not doing that quite as well as Facebook. That's not to say they won't, and they're definitely making progress at the moment. Google doesn't necessarily publish what they're tracking about you. Facebook does, via the live stream when you log in - which is more open per se?
- Jesse Stay
For an interesting look at the cross-section of marketing / customer behaviour (mostly off-line, but the web is part of the story) and obsession, check out this documentary on contesters ("professional" contest participants) - just saw it on a plane ride http://www.cbc.ca/doczone... [Interestingly, when I searched for this documentary, I found the guy who pitched the...
more...
- Micah Wittman
Jesse by this argument is google "publically tracking for you that you publish your webpage"
- Andreas Klinger
I'm checking out guys - nice chat :)
- Chris Saad
Jesse, its just different type of technology you use - Stream.put or Ftp.put
- Andreas Klinger
History will repeat! I started with email on CompuServe and did not communicate with others on other services, then discovered "internet mail". As with hardware, software, email and now social media, the architecture of vertical silos will gradually transform into horizontal layers ... from below! Only then does the "network effect" really start!
- John W Lewis
Andreas, do you know everything Google has tracked about you? What about all the Analytics tracking on each website you visit combined with data they've learned about you elsewhere? With Google, there's no way to opt-out without just killing your internet connection. At least with Facebook, it's opt-in. Google, IMO, has the potential to be much more evil than Facebook. That is, unless Facebook enters the open web arena.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, this tracking is not public on facebook neither
- Andreas Klinger
Jesse, true Google is big enough to pass the last frontier point of relationship to reality
- Andreas Klinger
Andreas, I know almost everything Facebook is tracking on me because they at least publish most of it via my stream. True, I don't know everything, but I know a lot. Not only that but they give me controls on what they can do with what they're tracking. I can't do that with Google.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, the stream info is your active part not your passive part
- Andreas Klinger
Jesse anyway i think we are talking about the same :)
- Andreas Klinger
Ok gotta go for a slow-real-life Meeting - cya!
- Andreas Klinger
I really think its not about who will conquer what i.e. google, facebook, etc... I really believe all this players are the basics, like the old economic scheme, I think we are going to evolve and use all this sites & technology in a very diverse and sophisticated form, kind of like what the brand Starbucks is to the old industry of coffee. google, facebook etc. are the industrial plants of our new digital era.
- sergio luna
Andreas, agreed, but I can still opt in to Facebook. I can't opt-in or opt-out of Google completely. I'm just saying it's not all about "open" like Google would like you to think. That's just their Marketing play, and we're all falling for it.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, 100% agree
- Andreas Klinger
Are we forgetting something? Facebook, Google, ... ARE websites. It is just about the level at which we engage. I do not need to build my own car to drive on the road; I can buy one, it is cheaper. But if I buy a Lamborghini or Porsche, I can still interact (inc. collide!) with you in your Mercedes! (For the public record, I drive an Audi.) Robert recently posted about geek disconnect, these guys are making the web consummable.
- John W Lewis
So we've finally found the one person in the world who doesn't want to friend you on FB!
- Rebecca Rachmany
Websites are so 1990s
- Stephen Pickering
From the mouths of babes... or 15year olds. At least we can count on things constantly changing just a little faster than many can adapt to.
- Mark Essel
Makes me feel better for not updating my website anymore - I'm not behind, I'm ahead :D
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
"I don't have a web site" indeed. My kids were not interested in learning how to create websites. "We have blogs on our cell phones." Well, then...
- Rick Cogley
your son's approach doesn't sound as absurd as it might seem at first. look at skittles, who dropped their website and transfered everything to twitter! and i was just thinking the other day about an ngo-website i'm involved in and why not moving it completely over to a facebook page.
- Johannan Edelman
If MoDo is still a columnist a week from now, @NYTimes will have NO credibility.
Daltonsbriefs liked this
Specter To Switch Parties - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com - http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...
Mark Krynsky, Jeff P. Henderson, metalerik and 39 other people liked this
"Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania said on Tuesday he would switch to the Democratic party, presenting Democrats with a possible 60th vote and the power to break Senate filibusters as they try to advance the Obama administration’s new agenda."
- Bret Taylor
from Bookmarklet
From Brian in the article's comments: It’s official. “Moderate wing of the Republican Party” is now a synonym for “Maine.”
- Daniel Dulitz
News??? Spector changed over when he voted with the 2 Maine Rep. for the Dem. Omnibus bill!!! He knows he can't win a Republican seat again after that!
- Disa Albanese
I think this guarantees a more prolonged Minnesota election challenge -- more money and more shenanigans.
- Brian Sullivan
Yup, good point brian.
- Roberto Bonini
With a 27% favorable rating as of March 25th, and losing badly to another Republican trying to unseat him, I don't think he had a choice.
- Mike Lewis
I'm a little surprised he didn't pull a Lieberman and run as an independent.
- Jim Norris
Jim, as an Independent, Specter would be facing a Republican AND a Democrat. Running as a Democrat eliminates the strongest competition - the Democrat.
- John Craft
basterd!!
- Jim Williams
Fox News takes a very "objective" look http://bit.ly/uUhco
- Pat Hawks
Woohoo!
- Piaw Na
You know Lieberman is gonna flip to the Republicans so meh?
- adolfo foronda
An unprincipled fence-hopper is still an unprincipled fence-hopper, even when he happens to hop over to my side of the fence. And if he'd lost his primary, PA would almost certainly have elected a more liberal Democrat than Specter will be. So I am not a fan of this move for both ethical and practical reasons.
- Benjy Weinberger
Yeah, what Benjy said.
- Andrew C
How many times has he 'flipped', on the EFCA? Who'll bid the highest, Chamber of Commerce or Big Labor?
- Wallace
With only 21% of the country self-identifying as Republican, and the majority of those threatening to lynch him, Specter took a long look at his future and did the expedient thing. To me, this was more of a political than a philosophical decision. He could care less about anything more than keeping his ego stroked. Oh for the days of Cinncinnatus, when a man served and then went back home, instead of establishing a lifetime pursuit.
- Phil Boiarski
Jim Norris - apparently PA has a "no sore losers" law, so he would have had to dump the GOP ahead of the primary to go independent, and then what John Craft said would apply.
- Andrew C
Whoa - I thought this was a joke at first. Wow.
- Hutch Carpenter
yeah ..that filibuster needs to go away anyway .. effective multi-party system would be good ...some relational representation, and, more exactly, 2 rounds - run off - elections (so that people "vote conscience" in the first round)- ...... campaigns lasting weeks, not a year .... and do tell us, what was 911 ? ..... and the Internet voting
- Petr Buben
Other ways to read this feed:
