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Danaa › Comments

Sean McBride
JVP has almost certainly been heavily infiltrated by a number of Zionist agencies, including Mossad and the ADL.
In fact, they may be largely running JVP. - Sean McBride
Unit 8200 is probably intercepting all of JVP's digital communications and the digital communications of all of its members and supporters. - Sean McBride
I don't doubt for a second that there is fifth column in JVP. There are after all moles in every organization viewed as a challenge against the establishment. Occupy was heavily infiltrated and some were deliberately planted provocateurs. So were the Ferguson protesters. The fifth columnist don't have to be in the "leadership" just relatively close enough. - Danaa
How does a 5th column infiltrate a 5th column? - pepsi
Sean McBride
Comment to Annie Robbins on the American Council for Judaism (ACJ) and Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP)
Once again, Annie directed a critique at me, in her usual rambling and disorganized way, here: She sought out and initiated the exchange, not me -- which is how this always goes. I composed a civil and substantive reply -- which is still sitting in moderation -- which means that her post has still gone unanswered. This is no way for a moderator to run a forum. This is the way dictators and despots conduct debates -- muzzle your opponent while you deliver speeches. - Sean McBride
Annie, - Sean McBride
When we begin to see organizations like the American Council for Judaism (ACJ) and Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) start to move the political needle in a significant way -- especially to exert a significant impact on the US Congress -- then we will all stand up, take note and applaud. But the ACJ has been around since the 1950s, and during the last half century its impact on American Mideast policy has been negligible -- non-existent really. - Sean McBride
I recently turned up this fascinating article in JTA from **May 7, 1956**: - Sean McBride
"1,350 U.S. Rabbis Denounce the American Council for Judaism" | Jewish Telegraphic Agency - Sean McBride
BEGIN QUOTE - Sean McBride
Some 1,350 American rabbis of all three branches of the Jewish faith–Orthodox, Conservative and Reform-this week-end scored the American Council for Judaism in one of the sharpest denunciations of the Council voiced. The statement was released by the New York Board of Rabbis, which circularized 1,500 rabbis in all parts of the country with the document. - Sean McBride
The joint declaration hit the American Council for Judaism, asserting that it has “consistently misrepresented the Jewish people before the bar of public opinion” and “has consistently maligned and impugned the integrity of Jewish institutions, organizations and causes, and has consistently distorted the precepts of Judaism which it purports to serve. The joint declaration reprimanded the anti-Zionist organization for what it termed “slanders” against American Jews “who adhere to the ideals of Zionism.” - Sean McBride
Asserting that the Council’s “real goal is the complete disappearance of the Jewish people,” the declaration stressed that the Council represents numerically “an infinitesimal fraction” of American Jewry. “we view with contempt the Council’s attempt to dissuade Americans from helping their fellow Jews and the State of Israel through contributions to the United Jewish Appeal and the... more... - Sean McBride
END QUOTE - Sean McBride
Notice that the Jewish religious establishment -- Orthodox, Conservative and Reform -- was overwhelmingly lined up against the ACJ back in 1956 -- and even then was conflating Judaism with Zionism. Since then this situation hasn't improved -- it has only become worse. - Sean McBride
One needs to be a realist about these matters, even while holding on strongly to idealistic beliefs and objectives. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
There is no good reason not to clear this comment. I think the problem is that Annie can't figure out how to answer the points and handle the discussion. - Sean McBride
New comment: - Sean McBride
The ACJ (American Council for Judaism) was challenging the Jewish/Zionist establishment back in 1956: - Sean McBride
"1,350 U.S. Rabbis Denounce the American Council for Judaism" | Jewish Telegraphic Agency - Sean McBride
So why is that establishment much stronger now in 2014 than it was in 1956? - Sean McBride
One might come to the reasonable conclusion, based on solid facts, that the Jewish community as a whole is constitutionally incapable of reforming the Jewish establishment on the issues of Israel and Zionism -- that is what the long historical track record reveals. Lots of idealistic talk and promises, no effective action. The game goes on and on with no change. Fool me once, shame on... more... - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
I actually agree with you Sean, on the substance. Unlike phil, who continues to hope against hope, I actually don't believe the American jewish community - as a community - has it in them to change. Some young people push the debate forward, some other young people become activists, a few good people raise their voices and call it like it is (Stieglitz comes to mind). And yet, this... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- a big idea has been taking shape in my mind and perhaps you can critique it. It was triggered by that JTA article I cited earlier: [1,350 U.S. Rabbis Denounce the American Council for Judaism] - Sean McBride
The idea in a nutshell: there has been a stream of Jewish anti-Zionism in Jewish culture for more than a century now, but the influence of Jewish anti-Zionists never rises above a certain level of minimal influence. Phil Weiss is the latest proponent of this stream of thought -- and his impact on the Jewish establishment will probably be no greater than the Jewish anti-Zionists who preceded him. The overwhelming majority of Jews has consistently rejected and punished anti-Zionists in their midst. - Sean McBride
For instance, long before Phil Weiss there was Alfred Lilienthal: 1. [Wikipedia; Alfred Lilienthal] 2. [; Alfred M. Lilienthal] - Sean McBride
And there is an analogy here regarding Enlightenment and universalist Jews in general, beginning with Spinoza -- they have consistently been rejected and punished by the overall Jewish community. Why should we believe that this situation is ever going to change? - Sean McBride
I think Gilad Atzmon took a good look at this overall pattern of behavior over centuries and decided to ditch the tradition altogether. - Sean McBride
If my analysis is correct, then one can predict with considerable confidence that the Jewish establishment (and the Jewish community as a whole) will find itself once again in a state of severe (even apocalyptic) conflict with "the nations" -- with non-Jewish groups -- a situation that has erupted repeatedly since the founding of Judaism. Conflict with "the nations" is the most salient... more... - Sean McBride
JVP members (including Annie Robbins) keep dangling before us the hope that Jewish anti-Zionists are going to succeed in reforming the Jewish establishment, Judaism, Israel and Zionism, but there is little reason to believe that this is actually going to happen. The truth is that Jewish anti-Zionists have continued to lose ground since the 1950s. - Sean McBride
What do you think? - Sean McBride
"" I actually don't believe the American jewish community - as a community - has it in them to change...Danaa).......Leaving out my disgust with Zionism completely and just looking at the Jewish Community objectively as an outside observer I don't think there is going to be any change either. In every instance I have seen in history when Jews were confronted with a choice of 'cleaving... more... - American
Also the truth is most Americans rarely think of Israel, its not on their radar or something they care about one way or another. So I doubt there will be great uprising there either unless Israel causes some horrific event that blows back on the US and puts Israel on their radar. - American
The way some kind of change might come about is a war between the 20%s. The 20% who want Isr out of Palestine and out of the US v. the 20% of US zionist and The I-Lobby Orgs. - American
Sean McBride
Mooser asked: what can be done to uncouple Judaism from Zionism?
One thing that can be done: encourage Jewish religious leaders in *public conversations* to begin drawing clear lines between Judaism and Zionism -- to explain to the world where they differ. But have we reached a point in which those leaders no longer believe that there any differences between Judaism and Zionism? Game over? - Sean McBride
Censoring the debate over this issue is probably not going to solve the problem. - Sean McBride
Btw, Mooser just posted a surprising batch of smart comments in which he reveals that he *does* understand -- fully -- the problematic relations between Judaism and Zionism. One wonders why he spent so much effort pretending that he didn't understand. - Sean McBride
In reply to your puzzlement - Mooser understands quite a bit. He just didn't like you personally because of your over-aggressive and condescending on-line persona in debates. I told you before like three dozen times that Mooser has the zionism/Judaism angle figured out just fine. It's just that you haven't been reading his posts to others with the attention they deserved, even as you... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- I couldn't begin to match Mooser for aggression, bullying, insults, arrogance, etc. -- that's his specialty. But for some reason you are willing to overlook that behavior. And you continue to get it backwards -- Mooser pursued me -- I didn't pursue him. When the critique of Jewish religious Zionism first emerged on MW, Mooser lost his wit and humor and went all Terminator --grim as death. The archives tell the tale. - Sean McBride
Danaa, sorry but Mooser is a asshole imo. And his witty little attacks on people have gotten old and arent amusing any more. He literally 'stalks' people he doesn't like with his' interpretations' on what they've said. So it doesnt matter what he understands, its his mouth and attitude that makes him an asshole. He's had his three strikes with me and I never respond to him and ignore... more... - American
American, understand you don't care for Mooser and neither does Sean. All I'm saying is to just avoid engaging with him, that's all. Some on-line personas rub people the wrong way and frankly, it would be surprising if they didn't as that's what happens in 'real" life too. There are lots of people i don't care to engage with. So what else is new? All I was saying is that sean and Mooser... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- I tried to avoid exchanges with Mooser, but he kept coming at me -- and he is still doing so now -- as of today -- he just called me a "right-wing mouth-breather" on MW. I never called him "stupid" -- I pointed out that he rarely posts interesting documentary material in his posts, with cites -- as do most of the best commenters on MW. I most prize *knowledge-based* commenters like Hostage, whose posts are sorely missed. - Sean McBride
Danaa, let me say again that "I dont engage with Mooser'' or even respond to him-- BUT that does not prevent his addressing and stalking my comments. So in my case the problem is in him. I scanned MW articles and 100 comments this am for any developments and noticed his comment on my comment that the Judaism is or isnt Zionism debate is best left to the Jews to settle . This was his... more... - American
American -- since Danaa hasn't been the target of obsessive stalking by Mooser, as we have been, she may not have noticed what is going on. And we are not the only targets who have been subjected to this abusive treatment -- other users have complained about it. - Sean McBride
My personal policy is to avoid all feuds with other commenters -- they are a waste of time -- that is why I stopped engaging with hophmi. The only reason I keep engaging with Annie is because time and again she has interfered in my conversations with other MW users in a highly aggressive way. I have definitely had the feeling of being stalked by her -- often by her in combination with Mooser -- they act as a tag team. - Sean McBride
American -- quickly scanning the most recent 100 comments on MW -- I see at least 15 by Mooser. Total comments posted by Mooser to date: nearly 20,000. A high percentage of them have insulted the intelligence of other MW commenters -- essentially dismissing them as morons. - Sean McBride
Just quit commenting. I think I've made 3 comments in 2 weeks on MW anyway. I really have nothing much to add to MW and I am not that into all the Jewish debates. I've started relying more on twitter with Max, Greenwald, Walt and others, to pick up on news blips. I noticed some important news about Hamas this am on Max's twitter, I'll post it above. - American
American -- that is a *smart* use of Twitter -- you are quickly skimming the cream of daily commentary on Israel and Mideast politics. Many of those Twitter links point to valuable long-form articles and essays -- one click and voila. The trick is to find the best feeds to follow. - Sean McBride
Regarding Mooser's style of argument -- most recently he has accused me of being a "right-wing mouth-breather," a supporter of slavery and someone who is "frightened of Jews." And Danaa thinks he's smart? :) Check out his attempts to discuss the Enlightenment tradition in this thread - Sean McBride
sean, danaa should be applauding you for finally getting that rat fink Mooser to engage in the key issues of the Jewish Question, when mooser asks, "what can be done to uncouple Judaism from Zionism?" - pepsi
unfortunately, danaa doesn't want to have that conversation either. She'd rather play pat-e-cake with her fellow Jews than to ask, "what can be done?" - pepsi
one minute danaa tells sean and american they should take mooser's supremacist bigotry personally, and the next she tells sean to back off, so her jewish circle-jerk party isn't threatened. Better a supremacist, bigoted, gatekeeping comments section than none at all, she insists, jewishly. - pepsi
I just scanned the 100 most recent comments on MW. It stinks. - American
Mooser has managed to anger Keith (along with quite a few other MW commenters). Check out this exchange: - Sean McBride
KEITH: Listen Jerk, that isn’t what I said and I resent you implying that it was. Perhaps you have more in common with Hophmi than either of you would care to admit. - Sean McBride
MOOSER: Look Keith, I can’t help my DNA! I was born with it, and so far, although it is possible (or so I have read) to get your foreskin replaced, I’m stuck with the Jewish DNA, not that I mind. And if Hophmi was ever short, and needed a DNA transfusion I would volunteer. We don’t agree on stuff, but I won’t see him wither and die for lack of Jewish DNA. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Mooser used to be a popular figure on MW -- he's gone off the rails -- attacking all and sundry -- usually by maliciously mischaracterizing their words, which he doesn't seem to take the trouble to read and understand. It's a weird and uncomfortable social situation, to say the least. - Sean McBride
With regard to the ethnocentrism angle on this, the comment speaks for itself -- mocking and jesting on the surface, dead serious at the core. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Annie Robbins finally shows her hand on censoring discussion on the relations between Judaism and Zionism
Annie Robbins: - Sean McBride
"hi sean, i’m done moderating your comments in this thread because i’m not qualified to judge where attacking a religion (or claiming it’s insignificant and completely consumed by a political construct) crosses the line into attacking the worshipers of a that religion given my repulsion for your determination to insist judaism is completely consumed by zionism, or whatever it is you... more... - Sean McBride
She is trying to moderate a topic about which she is completely ignorant -- she can't put together two coherent ideas on it. - Sean McBride
We'll see if this clears: - Sean McBride
oldgeezer wrote: - Sean McBride
"It’s a bit silly to see adherents of Judaism as a monolithic block, and say their religion is the problem, just as it is silly to lump Protestants and Catholics together as one." - Sean McBride
No one here has said that all adherents of Judaism comprise a monolithic block that supports Zionism. The argument is that *all* of the leading organizations of the Jewish religious establishment strongly support Zionism (apparently, now, even including the American Council of Judaism) -- and that they have combined Judaism and Zionism into a single ideological package. It's a gigantic... more... - Sean McBride
These religious organizations and leaders merit as much reasonable criticism as Christian Zionist groups. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Not yet cleared: - Sean McBride
lysias, - Sean McBride
<blockquote> Two roads diverged in a wood… One descendant of ancient Judaism, Christianity, gave the Old Testament a universalist interpretation. The other major one, Rabbinic Judaism, gave it a tribal, exclusivist interpretation until the Enlightenment, when it too gave the Bible a universalist interpretation. Until Israel was founded and Zionism swamped universalizing Judaism. </blockquote> - Sean McBride
That is one of the best brief summaries I've seen of the history of Judaism yet. - Sean McBride
Judaism had a brief moment of universalism during its Enlightenment phase (which was inspired primarily by European, not Jewish thought leaders, like Voltaire, Diderot and Jefferson), and then, with the emergence of Zionism, quickly sank back into narrow ethnocentrism and tribalism -- which is where Judaism stands in the year 2014. Even the formerly anti-Zionist American Council of... more... - Sean McBride
The crisis of Zionism is really the crisis of Judaism and Jewish civilization in general. The ability of Zionists to communicate with the rest of the world is rapidly deteriorating because, in an Aspergery way, they have little respect or empathy for the concerns of outgroups -- for the human race at large -- for modern universalism. - Sean McBride
Quite a few progressives seem to be in denial about what is going on -- including progressive Jewish anti-Zionists. They really don't differ that much from liberal Zionists in their insistence on clinging on to sentimental beliefs that don't match up with reality. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Ah, it turns out that Annie deleted this comment outright -- she can't hold up her end of the debate, per usual -- so she relies on censorship to try to muddle through: - Sean McBride
Annie, - Sean McBride
I pointed out to jon s that the racist, bigoted, violent, ethnocentric, nationalist and genocidal passages in the Torah/Old Testament greatly outnumber the vague, feel-good universalist passages, and that many contemporary religious AND secular Zionists use those hate-filled passages (certainly hate-filled by the standards of contemporary civilization) to rationalize and justify Israeli and Zionist policies. - Sean McBride
When you read texts, you need to study them *whole*, with all the parts in context and in proportion. I've read the Old Testament carefully from beginning to end at least five times, in combination with a great deal of critical analysis. I urge everyone here to read it all the way through at least *once* to understand why that work acquired such a bad reputation among Enlightenment and universalist thinkers -- they were appalled by it. - Sean McBride
Many people who haven't actually read the Old Testament, but who have only heard bits and snatches of it from popular culture, are shocked and horrified when they do. - Sean McBride
Christianity arose as a universalist and progressive revolt against the narrow tribalism and nationalism of the Judaism of that era. Compare the flavor and tone of the Old Testament and New Testament regarding tribalism and universalism. Reform Judaism, which was an Enlightenment product, emerged from a similar perspective on ancient Judaism -- like Christianity, it was created in the... more... - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
And Annie Robbins is now also deleting my replies to Mooser -- giving him an open field to engage in attacks without rebuttal: - Sean McBride
Mooser, - Sean McBride
I told you clearly that I don't think there are any available solutions to the problem of Zionism in a historical era in which Zionism and Judaism have merged into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology and captured the minds and emotions of Jewish establishment leaders lock, stock and barrel, with little effective resistance or opposition from the Jewish community at large. - Sean McBride
All one can do is try to make reasonable predictions. What I foresee is an increasing collapse of relations between the Zionist world and the rest of the world -- there is nothing I can do about it. What do you propose? What do you foresee? - Sean McBride
As I mentioned before, I would expect a fair number of Jews to disaffiliate from the Zionist organizations (nearly *all* Jewish organizations) which are creating so much social and political friction with "the nations." Many of them just want to get along like the rest of us in modern Western democratic nations which care about universalist values. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
So much for the vigorous and informed "war of ideas" on Mondoweiss -- it's a rigged game. - Sean McBride
I just noticed that Annie has deleted yet another comment that had already been cleared: - Sean McBride
jon s, - Sean McBride
Don't the passages commanding ethnic cleansing or genocide outnumber the universalist passages to a considerable degree? - Sean McBride
For instance: - Sean McBride
Deuteronomy, chapter 7: <blockquote> When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy... more... - Sean McBride
Surely you must see the parallels here with the attitudes of quite a few Israeli settlers and religious Zionists? - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
It's fascinating that Bill Maher on mainstream TV (HBO) discusses (and roasts) the violent themes in the Bible on a regular basis -- but that conversation is too hot to handle for Mondoweiss. - Sean McBride
Been decades since I read the Old Testament and New Testament (in school theology classes) but my impression was God in Old Testament was a violent and punishing God whereas in the New Testament God was forgiving and merciful. The Old was jewish scriptures, the New was Jesus. The Old Testament was Jews as tribe and against the nations - and God in OT very vengeful and violent against enemies---- sounds lot like zionism. - American
I had to laugh at the guy who said the Exodus could be seen as a 'universal' theme of Judaism. Liberation and all that. LOL. - American
American -- of course, what you say is precisely true -- but even these simple concepts, which anyone with even a passing familiarity with the history of Judaism and Christianity understands, are going right over the head of Annie Robbins. If Phil Weiss and Adam Horowitz back up Annie's charge that discussing these issues is "antisemitic," I think it will be time to write off Mondoweiss as a lost cause. Perhaps Jerry Slater had it right about Robbins all along -- the basic complaint: not very bright. - Sean McBride
What did Slater say about her? - American
Slater had problems with the generally mediocre, sloppy and uninformed quality of her thinking and writing, as I recall. One wonders why Phil Weiss and Adam Horowitz permit her to represent Mondoweiss so prominently. Her posts are a mess -- and usually angry and overwrought. - Sean McBride
Everything you really need to know about Zionism can be found in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua -- it's all there -- the basic ultra-nationalist myths, memes and themes -- fleshed out by the other books in the Old Testament. I strongly doubt that Robbins has read a single book in the lot. - Sean McBride
A moderator should not let their 'personal opinions' and 'personalities' dictate what they moderate. - American
Robbins has corrupted and degraded the comments section. She is using it as her soapbox, exercising control and censorship to prop up her personal (and often uninformed) opinions. But the buck stops with Phil Weiss -- he has permitted this situation to go on and fester for quite a few months now. - Sean McBride
In the golden age of MW, no one got in the way of vigorous debates expressing a wide range of views -- moderators were careful not to interfere with the natural flow of conversation of commenters. They didn't try to impose their point of view on the comments section as a whole. She is rather a despot and tyrant by temperament -- she revels in wielding what little power MW affords her. - Sean McBride
I wrote this last Saturday in a private message: "Annie has gradually come to believe that Mondoweiss is her personal blog -- and she has become increasingly bossy, opinionated and erratic in her management of the comments section." - Sean McBride
I am totally not joining you Sean in this tirade against Annie. frankly, if not for her, there would probably be no comment section at all at MW. If you want to rail against Annie, you will lose me. vendettas by anyone against anything are not my cup of tea. We lost over time many comment sections. haaretz's Talkback was one of the best ever and it's gone. The Guardian CiF was excellent and it's now severly curtailed. If MW will go by the way of HuffPo et al, that's something we have all expected. - Danaa
No one, as in NO ONE awes any of us a platform fro carrying out our favorite discourses/debates etc. IF MW does not wish you to carry on, especially in light of the OBVIOUS disinclination of the site to be a vehicle for any one particular debate, then you may just have to accept this and move on. - Danaa
On this feed, you can exercise whatever editorial control you wish. You can block people, you can engage with them on any topic, or not. It6's your feed and your choice. But on MW you are one commenter out of many., and if they don't want to go on and on in one particular direction that's important to you, then that's their choice. You can complain to the editors, and you can complain... more... - Danaa
I will repeat again - without Annie there's no comment section, period. She does the lion share of moderating for virtually no compensation. They'll never find another one like her willing to work countless hours on a thankless task for nearly nothing. That's the reality. It seems to me, sean, that you would rather destroy what's left of the comment section than to have your special... more... - Danaa
One more thing - I took note of your second comment above, the one you said was deleted. At some future time of my choosing I will make a similar comment, just as I have in the past. I bet you it'll clear. I told you it's personal - it's you personally they don't want to engage with on this topic. may be the way you approach it is a bit pointed and ascerbic. may be you telegraph too... more... - Danaa
Several times you described Mooser here as "not very bright" also. It could be he took note of that and decided engaging with you is for the birds. Now you called Annie all but "stupid", even dusting off good old Slater to back your denigration (why, if Slater said it he must be right, eh? after all, we all admired Slater, didn't we?). Now I'm beginning to wonder about things. Lots of things. But one thing i won't wonder about is why Annie prefers to give you a pass. - Danaa
I can't help but wonder now - was it your purpose to derail the MW comment section altogether just because it did not live up to your expectations? if it'll be no more, will you feel vindicated? is that what you were after all along? - Danaa
I have settled the argument for everyone ----->American December 17, 2014, 12:45 am '' Judaism is Zionism- Zionism is Judaism Yes it is– No its not. Anyone can find 1000s of articles by Jews and Rabbis claiming it is and claiming it isn’t. And all of them on both sides quoting this and that from the Old Testament to prove it. So its crystal clear that Judaism is Zionism for some of them... more... - American
Cause that's the - American
<<We lost over time many comment sections. haaretz's Talkback was one of the best ever and it's gone. The Guardian CiF was excellent and it's now severly curtailed. If MW will go by the way of HuffPo et al, that's something we have all expected.>> ~Danaa. ....... ;....... It's nice that MW restored the comment period's length.. Too bad they had the unwieldy redesign though. - WJones
Danaa -- the Mondoweiss comments section could easily survive the departure of Annie Robbins -- there are any number of people out there who are better educated than Annie, more literate, have more analytical minds and better editorial judgment, and who would be eager to lend a hand. Annie more than anyone else is responsible for the steep decline of the quality of MW comments -- she is... more... - Sean McBride
One begins to wonder: are there any significant differences between many Likud Zionists, liberal Zionists and progressive anti-Zionists? Many progressive anti-Zionists are no more able to deal honestly and objectively with the ideological roots of Zionism than Elliott Abrams, Michael Ledeen or Benjamin Netanyahu. It's all about emotionally circling the tribal wagon in all circumstances. - Sean McBride
To the main questions I addressed to Phil Weiss and Allan Brownfeld in the "Yes, Virginia" post, still no answers, no serious thinking of any kind. It's no wonder that progressive anti-Zionists have not made the slightest impact on affecting the power of the Israel lobby -- they are afraid to address the question of what sustains that power. In their gatekeeping function on this issue they are as much enablers of Zionism and the Israeli government as liberal Zionists (and even Likud Zionists). - Sean McBride
Danaa -- your instinctive inclination repeatedly has been to side with Mooser and Annie Robbins in their efforts to censor informed discussion about the role of Judaism and the Jewish religious establishment in empowering Zionism. It's difficult to reconcile this behavior with your many critiques of Judaism and support for Gilad Atzmon. I am still trying to understand the strange self-contradictions here. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- Annie has severely damaged the comments section by flooding it with her opinions (most of them written in mangled and confused prose), while at the same time moderating the section with a heavy hand to manipulate and rig discussions and debates in her favor. Really -- the situation is ridiculous. Phil sets high standards for MW in his lead articles. Annie has muddled and muddied the MW brand. I am surprised you can't see it. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- Phil in his lead articles has often shown a strong curiosity and open-mindedness about discussing the Judaism/Zionism issue in a bold and frank way. Instead of encouraging Annie Robbins and Mooser in their worst tendencies you should instead be encouraging Phil Weiss in his best tendencies. After all, it's his blog -- not Annie's or Mooser's. This is a conversation he has the... more... - Sean McBride
Annie is making a bit of progress: "anyway, i am rambling. i’m in the odd position of protecting judaism or islam or whatever. i’ve asked someone else to step in and make these decisions on this thread. it’s over my head." The operative words: "it's over my head." - Sean McBride
Sean, your personal vendetta is kind of getting a bit stale. It's all about you being "smarter" than others and has absolutely nothing to do with whatever issue you are into. If you were arguing about the fact that night follows day and insisting the people debate the issue with you, it would be the same. You came across as obssessive with an ax to grind. Given your over-aggressive tactics, I am not sure I would want you to be the one carrying on the argument. - Danaa
I honestly think the issue of Judaism vs zionism matters to you a hill of beans. Only being right matters to you. I hope you enjoy the thin airs of your eternal scintillating brilliance. keep calling everyone stupid and see how far that gets you on the popularity scale. I now see you are, in fact, much like pepsi in argumentation style - keep beating the same theme to death long after everyone else left to find greener pastures. perhaps the two of you are not so different after all. - Danaa
Danaa -- you've got this backwards -- Annie and Mooser have consistently been the aggressors in these exchanges -- and you have consistently defended them. Regarding the range of my interests concerning Mideast politics -- look at this feed -- it covers a wide variety of angles on the subject, not just the religious angle. In fact, I think the cyber angle is much more interesting than the religious angle -- but few people at MW are equipped to discuss it. - Sean McBride
The only side I am siding with is civility and knowing when you are hurting rather than helping your side of the argument. As I said before - IT IS NOT THE TOPIC BUT YOU PERSONALLY that people don't wish to debate or carry on with because your style is too obssessive compulsive. Just like our debates about Twitter - you never heard or acknowledged a thing I said about the pointlessness... more... - Danaa
There is no Judaism vs. Zionism issue now -- they are one and the same thing, according to the leading authorities on Judaism. Anyone involved in debates about Israel is now involved in controversies about Zionism and Judaism simultaneously whether they know it or not or like it or not. - Sean McBride
There you are again, describing people at MW as "not equipped" with this that or the other. most of us believe that if you think MW is not "up to your lofty standards" then perhaps another venue is what the doctor ordered. You should find people who share your standards to debate with. If they are not at MW I'm sure they are somewhere. May be you could start your own blog and call it... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- regarding Twitter and Big Data: I addressed your remarks in a substantive way and you never replied to my points. Sophisticated Internet users know how to mine Twitter and other social media to automatically extract high-quality editorial content with minimum effort. It's a powerful tool for those who know how to use it. It greatly reduces noise and increases signal -- it... more... - Sean McBride
I confess -- I like bright minds and bright people. That is what drew me to Glenn Greenwald's and Philip Weiss's blogs, and their early communities of commenters -- lots of fascinating and useful conversations there. I suspect you were drawn to those blogs for the same reasons. What has been disappointing is to see the gradual decline in the quality of conversation on MW. But this may be the fate of all great discussion forums -- they eventually lose steam and burn out. - Sean McBride
It's the simple truth: if the MW folks were "well-equipped" regarding cutting-edge information technologies, they wouldn't have permitted an outside company to degrade the quality of the Mondoweiss site. And generally I've noticed that Phil and Adam haven't taken much interest in the details of the Greenwald/Snowden revelations about the technologies being currently wielded by NSA,... more... - Sean McBride
That is why I posted this article today -- "National Cybersecurity Center of Excellence improving security in US, Israel" -- which one of my data mining tools pushed to the top of the queue for me. - Sean McBride
What I like about Glenn Greenwald, among other things -- he's not a gearhead by nature, but he has worked hard to wrap his mind around important technical issues that are foundational for contemporary politics. Good for him -- that lad has grit. That is why his collaboration with Edward Snowden produced powerful revelations that shook the world. He dug in and learned about the technology. (One can imagine how much it hurt his head to master the personal cryptographic system that Snowden taught him. :)) - Sean McBride
Well I'll be damned....Mooser is still stalking and making unsolicited comments on my 'one' comment regarding letting Jews settle the Zionism -Judaism divide/question. And he's getting uglier and uglier. He even has to slam Presbyterians ------------->Mooser.December 17, 2014, 2:17 pm....''....And oh yeah, I forgot to mention, all kinds of different Protestants, so many I certainly... more... - American
I noticed -- rolled my eyes. - Sean McBride
There is a quality of out-of-control dementia in many of these posts -- the endless stream of drivel -- and of course the over-the-top narcissism -- the voices in his head are always clattering away -- the tone is usually mean and cutting. Psychological issues. Tics. - Sean McBride
In every case of my 3 run ins with Mooser his attack on me on the basis of my 'gentile' opinions and implying I am anti Semitic or stereotyping Jews.As I said before it is impossible for people like that to understand that people can regard Jews as differing 'individuals' and still recognize that they often act as a 'collective' force. I see nothing contradictory in holding those two... more... - American
The vibe he puts out when he goes into Terminator mode is that he has sniffed out Amalek. - Sean McBride
Sean "Sophisticated Internet users know how to mine Twitter and other social media to automatically extract high-quality editorial content with minimum effort. It's a powerful tool for those who know how to use it.". You say I don't get "it", and I'm telling you the "it" does not interest me. I have you to mine the news for me, and if it weren't you it'd be someone else. I am not a paid... more... - Danaa
OK, interlude over. Gotta go back to what's pressing..... - Danaa
Well I am just going to say one more thing about Mooser then i am done with him. The first run in I ever had with him was on a thread where people were discussing something about Jews, how they were kept down in ancient days, and someone said something about Jews being in the financial world, on WS, etc... I made the comment that more Jews going into banking, WS and etc instead of... more... - American
American, everything you said about the reasons Jewish people were in the money trade is true. That is exactly How I learnt about the history of the Jews. Also no one in Europe would object to your statements at all. the problem with Mooser was on two levels; (1) he figured out you were not jewish so therefore saying "Jewish" and "money" in the same sentence was verbotten, and (2) he is... more... - Danaa
Sorry for the history "lesson" - I didn't mean to lecture, but I am sharing my experience as a one who came to this country as a foreigner and was astounded to find out how little people knew about history of, say, Europe. And that included some of the most learned jews I met. That includes Phil himself. Only in history departments you find knowledgeable people. So Mooser, to bring the... more... - Danaa
Anyways, i take all this into account when I talk to people like Annie or mooser or keith or even Slater. I see no point (though once i may have) of denouncing people as ignoramuses, having become cognizant of just how ignorant I am about things I learnt nothing about. that being said, it's true that I get treated better than you or Sean. Benefit of the doubt, tribal "status" and all... more... - Danaa
My own suggestion is: get a blog going that's run by a mix of jewish and not jewish editors. Not easy but all it takes is two, one on each side who are open minded and have the kind of non-ascerbic personality on-line that would attract others. Phil, whatever people think about him, simply brought an attractive personality to the I/P debates - who wouldn't want to have dinner with him? who wouldn't be willing to even pay for dinner. So there - this is what it's all about. personality first, debates later. - Danaa
Danaa -- I hear you loud and clear on your views on social media mining, and I respect them. We all process information in our unique and idiosyncratic ways -- and thank God for that. I like social media mining precisely because I value my time -- it permits me to scoop up the most valuable new information for me personally in the least amount of time and with the least amount of... more... - Sean McBride
Danaa -- I also appreciate you being so forthright and forceful in expressing your opinions about the Annie/Mooser situation -- why beat around the bush about your views? :) Neither of us is shy about expressing our opinions and I like that -- it cuts through the bullshit nice and quick -- and eventually things get sorted out one way or the other. I wouldn't waste time in discussions... more... - Sean McBride
Wrt to the tug of war with Annie, my held-up posts were cleared -- I assume either by Phil or Adam -- which is what I expected would happen. - Sean McBride
Danaa, no I dont mind the imput. But it mystifies me that so many Jews on MW who are so into the Jewish subject seem to have no real historical knowledge at all about actual Jewish history. Next to my fiction addiction, I am a history fan, not expert, but read a lot about different eras and countries that come up on my radar screen--so when I got involved on MW, where the theme is very... more... - American
Tragedy is that the opportunity for a Jewish Renaissance in the US has ended in capitulation to tribalism. This tribalism also ties it to the "diasporic". The term "diaspora" of course is a Zionist one; it predates Herzl. The immense wealth and influence has not served the core ideals of equity and fairness but a neurotic worldview that bristles against and blames the outsider in the... more... - peacefly
peacefly -- great comment -- overloaded with content ("overloaded" is a compliment) -- you packed many powerful ideas into that single paragraph. The key challenge facing Jewish civilization in the 21st century: solving the problem you described. I'm an optimist -- I think it can be solved in a positive way to the satisfaction and benefit of everyone. - Sean McBride
Jewish messianism is a powerful force that can evolve in both negative and positive directions. Let's figure out how to nudge forward the positive impulses -- the universalist strains in the culture rather than the tribalist and xenophobic strains -- but without abandoning the culture as a whole. But doing that will require ruthless honesty in trying to figure out what elements in the culture have often gone wrong. This is not a project for the timid. - Sean McBride
I cant find anything positive about Jewish messianism. And I havent been able to find any universal strains in the culture either. Every time I ask for some examples of the universalism all I get is quotes from Jewish writings. What I want is real world 'examples' of how they have 'practiced' universal principles. - American
Jews have often been in the forefront in the battle for social justice, human rights, civil rights and civil liberties. But Zionism has created enormous confusion about which values Jewish civilization really stands for. - Sean McBride
What is most problematic in Jewish civilization: mystical ethnic collectivism. That meme is at the core of both ancient Judaism and contemporary Zionism. - Sean McBride
'' Jews have often been in the forefront in the battle for social justice, human rights, civil rights and civil liberties'..sean)......Still, give me some examples in history, countries, movements other than some Jews involvement in Civil Rights. I am looking for specific examples. In all my research i cant find any movements by Jews in human social issues prior to their involvement in... more... - American
Cant find any Jewish movement against SA Apartheid either---->Search Results History of the Jews in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free ... Wikipedia The early patterns of Jewish South African history are almost identical with ..... The majority of South African Jews were unsupportive of the anti-apartheid cause. ‎History - ‎Today... more... - American
That's because there was no such movement. Vast majority of these movements were supported in the U.S. out of self-interest or safe emotional ways to exercise responses to Holocaust - hence no outrage against own tribe in Occupied Palestine - and not overarching universalism. That's why its quoted, first they came for the [fill in the blanks]. Jews in SA had no fear as "whites", many of... more... - peacefly
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Yes, Virginia, there is a liberal Zionist -
Allan Brownfeld explains that Liberal Zionism has never existed, because Zionism was always based on an illiberal idea, denying the Palestinian presence and removing indigenous people from the land
What liberal Zionists do to others in the name of ethnic nationalism can be done to them -- and no doubt will be done. - Sean McBride
"Run don’t walk to read this article in the Washington Report for Middle East Affairs: “Lamenting the Decline of ‘Liberal Zionism’ Is Futile—Since It Never Really Existed.” In which Allan Brownfeld of the American Council for Judaism explains that the crisis liberal Zionists are experiencing today over anti-democratic trends in Israel is actually the collapse of their own illusions: these liberal Zionists should have recognized long ago that the ideology they embraced was illiberal at its core." - Sean McBride
"Those who believe that Israel is now in the process of abandoning its founding philosophy of “liberal Zionism” are engaged in a futile enterprise, for that “liberal” Zionism never existed—it is simply a convenient myth. They have not confronted a contrary thesis—one supported by history—that Zionism was flawed from the beginning, not only by ignoring the existing indigenous Palestinian population, but by rejecting the dominant spiritual history and essence of Judaism." - Sean McBride
c; Moshe Sharett quote; "We have come to conquer a country from a people inhabiting it…the land must be ours alone." - Sean McBride
"Those who look at Israel’s current policies, such as continued construction and settlement of the occupied territories, are wrong to blame the country’s right wing. Labor and Likud Israeli governments alike have advanced the occupation. Both right- and left-wing Israelis, apparently, are comfortable with the status quo. Those who lament what they think is the decline—or end—of “liberal... more... - Sean McBride
Allan Brownfeld wrote: <blockquote> 1. ... by rejecting the dominant spiritual history and essence of Judaism ... 2. ... turned its back on the Jewish universal spiritual tradition ... </blockquote> - Sean McBride
Could Allan Brownfeld, or anyone here, provide the names of some key Jewish religious authors and works, outside of Enlightenment non-nationalist Reform Judaism (which has turned out to be a small historical blip in the big scheme of things), that give voice to "the Jewish universal spiritual tradition" and "the dominant spiritual history and essence of Judaism"? Some key quotes? The Torah is an intensely tribalist and nationalist ideological document -- one fully consistent with contemporary Zionism. - Sean McBride
Any good quotes? - Sean McBride
How does Brownfeld's interpretation of Judaism jibe with that of Israel Shahak or Yehoshafat Harkabi? - Sean McBride
Where is the "universalism," for instance, in Maimonides? - Sean McBride
There are deeply grounded cultural and ideological reasons for why the Jewish religious establishment has embraced Zionism with such enthusiasm -- and why it continues to double down on Zionism decade after decade, crisis after crisis. Until that complex of ideas is fully investigated, untangled and understood, it is going to be difficult to change a critical mass of Jewish minds about the rightness and righteousness of Zionism. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Once again, Phil himself has introduced the subject of Judaism on Mondoweiss -- and is promoting the familiar theme that Zionism is an anomalous and illegitimate deviation from Judaism. I don't think that is an argument that can withstand a fair intellectual challenge based on reading aright the foundational documents of Judaism for the past few millennia. - Sean McBride
One can untangle and bring clarity to this subject by assembling two collections of quotes: - Sean McBride
1. universalist quotes by leading Jewish religious thinkers - Sean McBride
2. anti-universalist, ethnocentric, nationalist, racist, tribalist and xenophobic quotes by leading Jewish religious thinkers - Sean McBride
Which stream of thinking has exerted the greatest influence on Judaism as a whole over the last few millennia -- and especially during the last half century? - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
I would be interested in pursuing this discussion with Phil Weiss and Allan Brownfeld -- not Mooser or Annie Robbins. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- once again check out Mooser's behavior on Mondoweiss -- he is initiating discussion with me -- I am not initiating discussion with him. And his comment to me is entirely without substance. Clearly any criticism of Judaism gets under his skin -- but he is unable to explain precisely why. - Sean McBride
Another question for Allan Brownfeld: - Sean McBride
Within Judaism, the Ultra-Orthodox, Satmar and Neturei Karta represent the main (and perhaps) only anti-Zionist streams. In what way are they universalists? - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Interesting -- Mondoweiss deleted my first comment above -- which struck me as being perfectly reasonable and civil. Why? But it approved the second comment. Mondoweiss appears to be highly conflicted and inconsistent about this subject. - Sean McBride
TIf Mooser is initiating something you don't need to respond. Do you respond to every commenter on this or any other subject? why do you care so much what Mooser says? do you take on Hophmi all the time? or every comment Annie makes? I must say that your comments come across to me as needling. however much you read on the subject you are not a religious jew so it is not your faith or... more... - Danaa
just be glad I am not putting up this comment on MW. that would really bring "them" (whoever they are) out of the wood works. - Danaa
Danaa -- what is important to me are the destructive effects that this ideology is having on my country -- the United States. Asking reasonable questions about the ideology in question is not "needling" -- it's an attempt to get at the bottom of what is driving this ideology and political movement. Phil posted an article citing Allan Brownfeld which, once again, addressed the... more... - Sean McBride
Danaa -- you seem to be arguing that one has to be a religious Jew to ask questions about Judaism and religious Zionism. By that reasoning, it would be improper for Jews to raise questions about Christianity, Islam or any other non-Jewish religion. And in any case, the focus of the discussion here is about *politics* -- not religion -- about the ways in which religious believers are... more... - Sean McBride
Whatever you would like Brownfeld to do he is not going to do it and there's no way you can force it. just because you want someone to come out and debate you or explain their position, they will only if they want to. My suggestion would be to find him on his own blog or whatever perch he is on and have him take it up there - if he wants to. The emphasis here is on "want". - Danaa
what i don't understand is why you insist they (whoever0 debate an issue with YOU. For whatever reason they don't want to have that discussion specifically with you. The more you insist, the less likely they are to take up your question. May be you could get someone else to raise it? or perhaps accept that everyone basically agrees there's a problem in the Judaism/zionism department and somehow those who care about judaism (which is not you and is certainly not me) need to resolve it for themselves. - Danaa
Sure what jews do affects others. But you want to argue something that that they don't want to argue WITH YOU about. I keep telling you they ain't gonna pick up the glove as much as you want to duel it out. If I were you I would take it personally, and make decisions accordingly. Perhaps there is a legal instrument you could use to force them to come out and debate/discuss/explain whatever. - Danaa
Now look what you did Sean - you brought out pepsi! now we can all have fun together, can't we? - Danaa
Well, the logjam seems to have broken -- the debate is proceeding on MW. :) - Sean McBride
I looked at the comments. I've said this before----I rarely see any Jews who actually have a true and factual understanding of Jewish history and I think it is because they rely on Jewish writers who write 'only' about Jews. Therefore they get only a Jewish interpretation' of world history, events, the Jews place in it and etc.. They should read some 'straight' world history books by... more... - American
What is most frustrating in trying to discuss the tribe, Jews, zionism or anything related with them is they do not understand how a person (or critics) can hold two views at the same time. There is nothing contradictory about treating or regarding Jews as 'individuals' and at the same time recognizing that Jews often act as a tribe or 'collective'. - American
I can easily agree with what you say American regarding views of history. In Israel in particular we got strictly a jewish viewpoint of history's larger events. For example, we really studied only history of places and countries where jews were at one point or another, and only those periods when they actually lived in the land. examples are Poland and Russia. We got very little Russian... more... - Danaa
ChasMark -- interesting essay on Machiavelli. You should post it on GFTG or your personal feed. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Mooser and Annie Robbins on Mondoweiss are still trying to obstruct and censor discussion about the ideological linkages between Judaism and Zionism.
And Annie Robbins is continuing to try to protect Mooser from being challenged about his views on Judaism and Zionism -- whenever this topic comes up, she interjects herself between Mooser and me -- really strange behavior. Mooser hides trembling behind her skirts -- he loses his tongue. - Sean McBride
On the subject of religious Zionism, both Jewish and Christian, Mooser and Annie seem to know absolutely nothing -- no cites, no background reading, no facts, no insights. Their agenda seems to be to protect Judaism from any responsibility for Zionism -- which is an absurd position. The Jewish religious establishment is by far the most important component of the Israel lobby. - Sean McBride
"Fofani"? I don't think this is appropriate, Sean and will not get you many fans. It just looks like you are irritated that Mooser won't engage with you. It's his choice, you know, to not debate this or another issue. Just like hostage. Debate only makes sense if there's another side that actually want to debate. You may want to find another angle to get your point across is my recommendation. - Danaa
Danaa -- you may have missed many of the exchanges. Annie Robbins has repeatedly inserted herself in the discussions about Judaism and Zionism in a way that was clearly intended to obstruct and disrupt that line of conversation and investigation on Mondoweiss. And she has repeatedly failed to draw clear distinctions between her role as a Mondoweiss moderator, Mondoweiss spokesperson and... more... - Sean McBride
Annie Fofani is her Twitter handle, by the way. Nothing derogatory was intended in the use of her self-chosen Twitter name. (Did Danaa think I was taking a cheap shot at her? :) -- not my style.) - Sean McBride
I thought this was a reference to the Name Game: (Annie, Annie, Fofannie) But since her name is Annie, not Ana, her name actually would make the Name Game (which uses the ending "-ana") into a tongue twister. - WJones
My main problem with Annie -- she consistently misrepresents and garbles my views and directs her ire at straw men -- after awhile, one loses patience in trying to sort out the mental mess. You can only have a useful discussion when the participants quickly get each other's points -- and respond intelligently to what you are actually saying. Mooser is even worse in this department -- he... more... - Sean McBride
If annie and Mooser's debate style is not to the level you want then just stop debating them. isn't that the obvious solution? my only question is why do you insist on continuing something that you are not happy with? may be you should find some other people to engage with on this topic, possibly not on MW. - Danaa
I am not saying anything here about the pros or cons of this particular debate, because the point of your point is that they (annie, Mooser et al) don't seem to want to engage with you on the topic. At least not sincerely. If you keep bringing up the topic trying to draw out Mooser, it'll just look like you are trying to score debate points. - Danaa
Danaa -- you've got this completely backwards -- when I tried to debate this subject with other people, Mooser and Annie repeatedly interjected themselves into the discussions with the clear intent to disrupt and obstruct -- they were the aggressors. I know what I am talking about -- I was in the middle of every exchange :) -- (all of it archived, by the way). - Sean McBride
Sean, the topic is probably worth discussing for the sake of other readers, but not to expect Annie and Mooser to engage in a constructive way. I don't know that Mooser is really able to make a detailed engagement on the topic, pro or contra. Annie probably is, but she straightjackets herself on the topic, since I asked why are so there so many PEPs who are conservative on the issue,... more... - WJones
I don't know what the deal is with annie and Mooser but I don't engage with either of them any more since the debate/argument Mooser started with me that annie butted into and was very snide and insulting. I made some comment on a thread in response to something saying I had always regarded Jews as religion because that's how I was raised, that Jews were Jews because they were members... more... - American
American -- that's the well-established pattern by now with Annie and Mooser -- they work as a tag team -- with Annie often interceding (butting in) to try to protect "little brother" Mooser -- who has trouble standing up on his own two feet in a serious debate. Often neither one makes a lick of sense -- often they are snide and insulting. They have dragged down the level of the comments section. The basic agenda -- constrain the critique of Zionism to what they consider to be safe limits. - Sean McBride
Well I just ignore them now--I don't really comment that much on MW any more anyway. My only interest in ever looking into the tribe or Jewishness/Jewish history'Judaism to begin with was simply because of the political problem of Jewish Zionism to try and see*why* there is always a Jewish problem century after century. I think I now have a good grip on the 'why of it'----and imo if... more... - American
Avigail's essay was really great. I think more people should have paid attention (judging from the comments - I expected a lot more. If the thread isn't closed down yet I may interject). The key here is the psychology of brain washing from infancy (that's how it's done in Israel). She is saying what I have been for a while now (and she is definitely the professional psychologist; I am... more... - Danaa
'' The key here is the psychology of brain washing from infancy (that's how it's done in Israel). She is saying what I have been for a while now (and she is definitely the professional psychologist; I am just a good observer) that israelis are a cult, a really virulent one. And one with enough tentacles to draw in their supposed bretherns among the jews of the world. Who then go on to... more... - American
MOOSER: "[“I see ancient Judaism as holding an inner Messianic prophecy of universalism.” ~W.Jones"] Yes, but you have always been one of the world’s premier chumps, so you would think a meshuggana thing like that. Go ahead, be a schmendrick, I can’t stop you." - WJones
I think he is being sarcastic. - WJones
Let me ask you again, WJones. why do you insist on carrying on a conversation with someone who simply doesn't seem to want to talk to you? Mooser does not want to discuss anything to do with ancient Judaism and/or whatever "prophesies' one imagines were contained in the OT (which, as you know I consider Rantings, not "prophesies") with anyone, be they jewish or not. It's not his shtick,... more... - Danaa
Another thing - most people who are jewish, however observant they may or may not be, are nopt very interested in talking about ancient judaism, and especially not with those who say they are Christians. That task is perhaps best left to historians and/or theologians with a historical bent. I realize Christians (cf. mostly protestants) do like to talk about early Christianity which gets... more... - Danaa
On this again eh? I honestly don't see the point unless you are trying to prove that Judaism provided the seeds for Zionism. I think there are some beliefs in Judaism that 'could have' ..mainly how it evolved for some into a ethnic or 'peoplehood tribe' . But seriously, how do you think you're going to change whatever is in the minds of those you keep trying to discuss this with? The side that pursues this and the side that avoids it both have their minds made up already so its a lose- lose. - American
American saying it more simply than I did, more to the point, too. - Danaa
Mooser, working in tandem with Annie Robbins, was aggressive and abusive in trying to shut down discussion about the relations between Judaism and Zionism on Mondoweiss as a whole. He started that mess. And now many people are wondering where he is really coming from on these issues. If the subject makes him defensive, nervous and shrill, he should steer clear of it -- and he should... more... - Sean McBride
What this controversy revealed about Mooser is that underneath the comic exterior lurks a true fanatic when it comes to Judaism -- very angry and xenophobic in a classical Old Testament way. - Sean McBride
The anti-Zionist and non-Zionist factions in contemporary Judaism are on the far fringe and are completely powerless -- the Jewish religious establishment overwhelmingly supports Zionism and frames it as an organic extension (or even core component) of Judaism. Regarding the topic in general: it comes up all the time on Mondoweiss, spontaneously, among many commenters and MW writers,... more... - Sean McBride
Judaism is the ideological glue that holds together the ethnic cult of Zionism. - Sean McBride
Drat! I lost my comment and have a cruddy head cold and am going to bed---but will just say again ....quit beating your head against the wall. Mooser and annie don't want it, aren't going to engage. I don't know why you try/care anyway cause nothing anyone outside of Judaism says about Judaism being Zionism or visa versa one way or another is going to change anything. - American
I have no interest in discussing the topic with Mooser and Annie -- but I do with other people on MW who are interested in the topic and who are much more knowledgeable about it than they are. You should advise them to butt out and stick to issues they know something about -- with Mooser, that would be doing Henny Youngman routines, circa the 1950s in the Catskills and Borscht Belt. - Sean McBride
I doubt my telling them to butt out would have any affect. lol BUT.... if you want to pursue the subject with other commenters then be smart and don't step in the cow pie---by addressing Mooser on it, don't respond to him or annie regardless of what they say if they do butt in, ignore it----only respond to the others you say have an interest. - American
yet again, I must second American. Don't engage with those who don't want to engage with you. Addressing others is fine, why not. You know, the easiest thingto do on MW, as I found is to ignore people. Which is why I'm always amazed that people were so tempted to respond to someone like hophmi or the other pro-Israel posters. I did so only once in a blue moon and only when i felt like... more... - Danaa
Danaa and American -- again, you are missing the point: Mooser and Annie Robbins were trying to prevent *other* MW users from engaging in discussion on this topic with *one another*. They have sought to censor and shut down the topic of Judaism and Zionism altogether by means of personal attacks and even vicious verbal abuse (from Mooser). I had numerous lengthy and useful conversations... more... - Sean McBride
But this is a non-issue now -- the MW comments section has lost its vitality -- most of the heavyweight commenters and commenting have disappeared. - Sean McBride
What is going on here is that some MW personalities are trying to cling to the belief that Zionism is a peculiar deviation from the Jewish tradition which "hijacked" Judaism. But this is not the case -- the roots of Zionism lie firmly in Judaism -- that is why the Jewish religious establishment has embraced it passionately and without reservation. What was a deviation was Reform Judaism... more... - Sean McBride
Quite a few minds on MW were capable of discussing these issues in an interesting way based on a mastery of scholarship -- but they are now gone. And this is a conversation that has gone right over the heads of Mooser and Annie. - Sean McBride
DANAA, You ask: <<"Let me ask you again, WJones. why do you insist on carrying on a conversation with someone who simply doesn't seem to want to talk to you? Mooser does not want to discuss anything to do with ancient Judaism... My suggestion is - find someone else to converse with.">> I don't have a special interest in talking with Mooser. I make general comments on MW about things I... more... - WJones
WJones -- indeed -- the issue is about Mooser and Annie fouling up and degrading the MW comments section in general with classical troll methods -- not about any desire to engage in discussions with them. - Sean McBride
''indeed -- the issue is about Mooser and Annie fouling up and degrading the MW comments section in general...Sean).....Yeah but there is nothing you can do about it. The best days of the MW comment section are gone, not likely to return. Except for a few times when articles like the one about Ferguson and cops appears and gets people arguing their side and debating its mostly just repetitive yada yada. - American
American -- as you know, I've pretty much written off the MW comments section. There are still some good posts there, however -- for instance, I just quickly scanned the 100 Most Recent Comments and noticed some interesting posts by JLewisDickerson. The valuable commenters go well beyond opinionating -- they load up their comments with important documentary material from high-quality... more... - Sean McBride
WJones also made some excellent posts just recently. - Sean McBride
I wanted to interject into the comments to defend Sean for getting into a worthwhile topic. - WJones
Once again, Mooser is up to his old tricks: Always in attack mode on the subject of Judaism. - Sean McBride
Sean, who cares what mode Mooser is in? seems it's only you that takes it to heart. - Danaa
Once again, he is cluttering up the comments section with nastiness and empty remarks while trying to disrupt a useful discussion about an all-important issue. It's beginning to sound like you are defending or excusing his behavior. I would like see an intelligent discussion on Mondoweiss concerning Allan Brownfeld's views on the relations between Judaism and Zionism. Perhaps it can still happen -- we'll see. - Sean McBride
American How school privatization hawks Teach For America promote Israel
If you want a subject for MW take on this one. It has a Jewish angle. Plus US education is now circling the toilet between bad teachers that cant be fired because they belong to a union and Zionist who want turn the US in a Jewish state for Israel and yet others who want to bust up Teacher Unions and don't care how they do it. Its a F'ing mess. - American
'' Teach For America (TFA) is best known for dispatching hundreds of idealistic college graduates to work in inner cities across the United States each year, but it also sends selected members on free, religious-themed tours of Israel. - American
' Called The Reality Israel Experience, the TFA-sponsored trips bring idealistic young American teachers into contact with Israeli politicians and military personnel while “introducing [TFA] corps members to Israel’s education and social justice systems.” - American
'' According to testimonies featured on Reality Israel’s official website, participants are at times led by a “military tour guide,” visit with Israeli military educators at an army base “near Jerusalem” (in the occupied West Bank?), and enjoy “ATV off-roading all over the Golan Heights,” an Israeli-occupied region of Syria. - American
' The Reality Israel Experience is largely a project of Lynn Schusterman, the wealthy widow of the oil and gas tycoon Charles Schusterman. Since taking control of her husband’s fortune, she has established a reputation as one of America’s most aggressive backers of pro-Israel campus advocacy, funding campus-oriented ventures like Birthright Israel and The David Project. - American
'' As publicly-funded, privately-operated charter schools expand their reach and their wealthy advocates gain increasing influence over public education, boundaries between religion and state have blurred. This has opened avenues for ideologues like Schusterman to advance their political and religious agenda among a population of needy and impressionable children. With an eye on... more... - American
'' Unlike certified teachers, TFA members must only complete a five-week summer training program before they enter the classroom. They work for lower salaries than certified teachers and must accept weaker health and pension benefits, a prime arrangement for libertarian-minded governors and mayors seeking to hollow out the public sector. - American
'' In Chicago, where Mayor Rahm Emanuel has shuttered nearly fifty public schools, mostly in predominately African-American neighborhoods, approximately 850 teachers and staffers have lost their jobs. The man-made disaster has been a boon to TFA, which is pouring into Chicago with hundreds of non-union replacement teachers. “The added influx of TFA corps in the city means they now compete head-to-head for jobs with traditional teachers,” noted journalist Emily Brosious. - American
'' “TFA basically now is a replacement worker organization,” Branden Rippey, a Newark, New Jersey-based public high school teacher and leader of his city’s New Education Workers caucus, told me. “They are a scab-running company; they lay off tenured teachers and bring in scab workers. The [TFA] kids are so young, they haven’t had experience, they haven’t had conflict with their bosses, they don’t understand what’s happening and don’t know what they’re being used for.” - American
'' A year before Schusterman began supporting education privatization, Michael Steinhardt, the hedge fund manager who commits millions each year to Birthright Israel, and who has declared, “There were no Palestinian people,” initiated an effort to establish a network of Hebrew-language charter schools that promoted Israel on the public dime. - American
'' Reporters Nathan Guttman and Naomi Zeveloff of the Forward reported that the Israeli flag stands beside the American flag in classrooms of the Hebrew Language Academy (45 percent of the school’s students are non-white). Despite criticism from the New York Civil Rights Coalition, which accused the charters of skirting the constitutional separation of religion and state to “transmit cultural values and identity,” the publicly-funded network has expanded across the country. - American
'' According to a 2011 segment on Public Radio International’s program The World, this is how children at the Hebrew Language Academy in Brooklyn begin each school day: [Teacher is heard saying] “Hands at your side like a soldier…” [Students begin to sing.] PRI reporter: It’s not just any song … it’s the Hatikvah, the Israeli national anthem. - American
'' As the billionaire-backed, bipartisan movement for education privatization sets its sights on inner cities across America, pro-Israel ideologues like Schusterman are riding the momentum. And it seems that little can stop them from imposing their agenda, not even the US constitution. written by Max Blumentha - American
Endless propaganda, indoctrination and mind control -- it never stops; it just keeps accelerating. File under the Zionization of America. - Sean McBride
American -- great post, on an important topic, with careful formatting -- easy to read and grasp. - Sean McBride
named entity extraction: - Sean McBride
1. Adam Simon 2. AIPAC 3. Birthright Israel 4. Charles Schusterman 5. David Brooks 6. Eli Broad 7. Goldman Sachs 8. Hebrew Charter School Center 9. Hebrew Language Academy 10. Israel 11. Jennie Starr 12. Kavod Elementary Charter School 13. Lynn Schusterman 14. Michael Steinhardt 15. Rahm Emanuel 16. Sarah Berman 17. Schusterman Foundation 18. TFA (Teach for America) 19. The David Project 20. The Reality Israel Experience - Sean McBride
On the Judaism/Zionism issue: "In 2011, Starr highlighted the new academy as a kind of pro-Israel activism mill, writing, “A passionate, Israel-oriented, Hebrew speaking community will almost certainly support Israel and stay connected to Judaism.”" - Sean McBride
The message that is being relentlessly hammered home by the Jewish establishment: Judaism, Jews, Jewishness=Zionism and Israel. - Sean McBride
Max Blumenthal was the author of this article, btw. More background: [Is this TFA and Reality Israel stuff Anti-Semitic? I’m torn.] - Sean McBride
American, thank you thank you for bringing up this topic and the reference. The situation in Education "reform" is one of my areas of interest. I am reading this now. As you say - it's a veritable mess all around - a race to the bottom. And all because of neoliberalism's model of "privatization" "testing" and "monetary reward/punishment". - Danaa
I hope you don't mind if I comment, but American didn't post this at GFTG, and I'd like to comment. It's worse than you think, American. There is a program that sends public school teachers to view the Holocaust Museum in D.C. for training. I don't know the numbers, but the lady I know who went was still teaching about soap and lampshades several years ago after attending. FWIW,... more... - Todd
Todd, I certainly don't mind you interjecting here. I agree on one thing - the "leftist" agenda in education has succeeded in bringing further down the average level of education kids get in this country for everyone. The effort to "narrow the gap" in achievement cannot succeed as long as the education achievement correlates 1:1 with parental education level, which by extension means,... more... - Danaa
Interestingly, the one area i found where people from "left' and "right" can agree on things is the need for basics in education. In this one area, most of the people on "my" side were actually from the opposing party. Fancy that! there's more to be said on this issue but time is a pressing. Still, lets thank American again for pointing out yet another weird angle in the so-called... more... - Danaa
Todd, I meant to also post this at GFTG ---because I knew you in particular would be interested in this---but got call away on a emergency errand and just got back home. - American
Yep, I agree the leftist have made education about touchy feely stuff and free to be me,me,me instead of learning. I think I am one of the older ones here and I can remember when it was the parents job to 'prepare' their kids for school, to teach them the correct behavior- -iow let them know they go to 'learn' and they have to discipline themselves about learning. I see parents these... more... - American
The TFA may have been set with good intentions originally but as we see in this as with everything else---various special interest have their hand in it...the zios, the union busters, the unions. This country is so screwed up. - American
Sean, no its not anti semitic. Politics, political ideologies and certainly not promoting loyalty to a foreign country should be in public education at all in any way, shape or form. All that stuff needs to be banned, kicked out. Education should be *neutral* period. I don't like teaching the holocaust as a stand alone subject in schools either. Particularly to impressionable young children and it shouldnt even be part of American history, it should be a subject in World History courses. - American
I didn't think the article was remotely antisemitic, and I agree with both you and Max on these issues. I posted the link to that article because the comments are incredibly revealing of a certain mindset with which we are all familiar by now. Internet comments are a gold mine for revealing the real and unvarnished attitudes and beliefs of a wide variety of cultural, political and... more... - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Friendfeed tip: lists
1. go to your personal feed - Sean McBride
2. in the right column, under "Friends," click on "Browse/edit friends" - Sean McBride
3. click on "New friend list" in the upper right corner under "Friends" - Sean McBride
4. fill in the name for the new list under "Friend list name" - Sean McBride
5. click on "Create" - Sean McBride
6. click on "choose the friends" - Sean McBride
7. click on the friends (including groups, feeds, etc.) that you want to add to the list - Sean McBride
8. the name of the list will now appear in the right column under "Friends" in your personal feed - Sean McBride
9. click on the list name to see the latest updates by members of the list - Sean McBride
You can create any number of lists. You could create, for instance, a list to track all new posts by Mondoweiss members on Friendfeed. - Sean McBride
Lists offer a different way than groups to create new social networks on the fly, without any centralized control. - Sean McBride
Added note: when you are positioned on the feed of any user -- say, American -- you can edit the lists to which that user belongs (it can be several lists). On the left of the top bar for "Lists" click on "(edit)". - Sean McBride
Some geeks are able to figure out these features within a few minutes of first using Friendfeed, but I realize that many people are not. (And thank God most people aren't geeks.) - Sean McBride
Use lists to keep track of new posts on specialized combinations of feeds. - Sean McBride
Imagine if all Mondoweiss writers, managers and commenters set up their own personal feeds on Friendfeed -- the speed, quality and intensity of communications and exchanges would increase dramatically. - Sean McBride
I can easily imagine the information overload. I can only hope this will never happen. I have hard enough time just reading a few posts a day and a couple of comments here and there. I already ran out of time to comment myself. At least not on the level I like to comment. I imagine many are in the same boat. That is we, who are not professional writers/commenters. No time. That's the... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- the beautiful thing about lists is that you have fine-tune control over the amount of information you want to receive from them -- simply populate them in the way and at the level that works best for you. And it's easy to edit and revise them as you go along. And if that weren't enough, you can filter lists through search expressions. I've never run into a problem with... more... - Sean McBride
Danaa -- another Friendfeed tip -- you can use "Saved searches" to easily keep up with new posts and comments on any particular topic or term (or any complex combination of topics or terms). After performing a search, click on "Save search" in the upper left corner of the page. From then on, that search will appear under "Saved searches" in the bottom block of the right column on your... more... - Sean McBride
[erhaps the time for lists like this will come for me some day. Like when i need to do some serious research. Just not yet. I'm mired in other technical searches at the moment .... - Danaa
Friendfeed as malleable platform?
Sean earlier today: "Friendfeed breaks down the artificial barriers among *all* publications and websites on the Internet -- it is infinitely flexible, reconfigurable and extensible. Mix and match however you like." - Danaa
However, an incident with Taxi's new feed calls into question the reliability of this platform. According to Taxi (as conveyed to me), she had three acccounts on FF, two of which were "dormant", ie, nearly empty, hardly used. In the interest of house cleaning, she tried to delete one of the old, unused ones, which resulted in all three being deleted. No notice ever came up, saying... more... - Danaa
I see a very serious problem here assuming this account is true. I cannot try and reproduce/test the conditions described (ie, opening another account, and trying to then delete it) without risking that my normal account will vaporize as well. I am not sure how this can be tested otherwise. neither can I assume that Taxi would deliberately tell a story that is not true. If I assume that... more... - Danaa
Her description of what allegedly happened doesn't make sense to me -- I've had considerable experience with Friendfeed, and followed many conversations among Friendfeed wizards about Friendfeed software issues -- and these scenarios have never come up. FF is a highly stable social media platform -- written by some of the most skilled programmers on the planet. If this had ever been an issue, other users would have reported it and it would have been immediately fixed. - Sean McBride
Sean, that's the problem I see here. Only three options: either Taxi is not telling the truth and has, in fact, deliberately disabled all her accounts; or she is telling the story as it happened, in which case FF comes across as either problematic or not reliable. And three: her computer was somehow hacked. Yes, it's possible she pressed an option unwittingly and what happened was a... more... - Danaa
the possibility of "hacking" is especially problematic. It raises doubts more serious than mere "platform issues" or "software bugs". I am very disturbed by that possibility even if the likelihood is in the single digit percentage points or below. - Danaa
Danaa -- the FF community -- in its entirety -- is a far more reliable source on matters like this than Taxi -- whose tech skills are questionable. Possibly Taxi's PC has been hacked -- but that would have nothing to do with Friendfeed. FF has been solid as a rock for seven years now. - Sean McBride
According to taxi, she has contacted the friendfeed "team" but has not heard back from them. Do they exists? is there any help available whatsoever on-line to people who use this platform? could facebook be deliberately trying to hobble it? is Taxi a facebook "plant"? is Sean one of the "original" Friendfeed developers? am I asking too many questions? are we all being a bit naive about... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- FF has been in a state of stasis since Facebook purchased it a few years ago -- so there is no active team to contact. It is so finely tuned that it has been running perfectly, with no adjustments or tweaks required. Taxi is describing a situation that no other FF user has encountered for seven years -- she may be a bit confused -- or perhaps her personal machine has been hacked. - Sean McBride
Sean, taxi never claimed to have some kind of exceptional technical skills. Neither do the 100's of Millions who use facebook. Whatever the case may be, just like things that transpired with facebook over the years and got either addressed or modified, the scenario described by Taxi needs to be addressed. perhaps by the friednfeed team. Can what she described happen or not (say by... more... - Danaa
I wasn't a FF developer, but I was a very early user (from the first week it was released) and was in regular contact with the developers, who are extremely good. Again, from the FF standpoint, Taxi is describing a non-issue. The problem is at her end. - Sean McBride
Sean, if what you say is true and the problem is entirely at taxi's end, that will leave the two possibilities - her computer being "hacked" as in "taken over" at least momentarily, or she is lying. I see a huge problem either way. - Danaa
Taxi has a problem, but it has nothing to do with FF. I don't have enough information to know what precisely the problem is at her end. - Sean McBride
To me, this account is like putting in blinking yellow lights - proceed with caution. And that is what I plan to do. I will not extend my use of FF beyond what I'm doing now which is just a group messaging and commenting service. I will not put anything on my own Feed or try and "branch out to form another group. - Danaa
Danaa...ditto. we have to take people for what they claim unless evidence/contridictions become too much to deny. I don't have any reason to think Taxi would lie about what or how it happened. - American
But, sean you seem very willing to believe she lies. I understand you guys had an altercation and that her "colorful" language is not to your liking. However, as one who had no altercation with either of you, and one who is not readily emotionalized in general, I am not so quick to label people, either as liars, or as 'not so smart", or as "brilliant" or as "flaky". - Danaa
Danaa -- check out my personal feed -- with thousands of posts and comments over years -- not a single glitch or problem -- NOT ONE -- and other experienced FF users will provide the same reports. Listen to people who know what they are talking about -- not Taxi. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- I didn't accuse her of lying -- you introduced that word, not me -- I simply have no idea of what is going on at her end. Consult the full history of the FF Feedback group -- -- there are no other user reports that match up with hers. - Sean McBride
OK Sean, but I am waiting to hear from someone who encountered the same scenario as taxi (ie, having multiple accounts and trying to delete only one or two. leaving others intact). That's what i want to hear about - this particular scenario - can one accidentally (say, by being technically "unkilled") delete one's main account when trying to delete a dormant account? has that happened... more... - Danaa
It could be that taxi had more than one account with an identical handle - so FF wouldn't know how to distinguish between them and deletes them all in a flash. It could be she didn't put in enough distinguishing characteristics and FF got confused. - Danaa
All other scenarios are more disturbing to me. Hence my interest. I would like to have the possibility outlined above as either ruled out or in. - Danaa
I am worried though why she hasn't created a new account on FF to communicate with us--- unless FF limits accounts from the same isp. If so she would have to get a new isp. Other thing I thought of (regarding her *route* of communication with you Danaa)----is perhaps she didn't say more or announce her intentions because she has been hacked or has a monitoring bug and is having to do... more... - American
There have been no reports that I know of (and I have read every post and comment on Friendfeed Feedback since its founding) that describe a situation in which deleting one account by a user deletes all other accounts by a user under other user names. FF doesn't get confused about these matters -- some users might, however. - Sean McBride
Hacking happens all the time on the Internet -- that is the scenario I would most worry about and focus on. FF is as bug-free as any social media platform can be. - Sean McBride
FF accounts are not IP-based -- they are user account-based. You can sign into your FF account from any IP. - Sean McBride
But is there any limit on the accounts you can have on a single isp? And if I accidentally deleted myself from FF membership could I recreate a membership with the same name or not? - American
There is no limit on FF accounts by a single user from a single IP that I know of. Recreating an account with the same user name as that from a previously deleted account -- not sure -- but I suspect that may not be possible. You would probably need to choose a new user name. - Sean McBride
To test this out, I just created three new FF accounts with various user names from my standard IP number -- no problems. Easy as pie. - Sean McBride
I'm watching the New England Patriots/Miami Dolphins game while typing -- great game! :) Brady to Gronkowski -- TOUCHDOWN!!! - Sean McBride
I think Taxi may want to keep her 'brand" which is the Taxi name--that may be part of the problem. - American
That may be water under the bridge. Never delete your own account on FF if you have any intention of preserving your brand. It takes a great deal of effort to delete an account -- virtually impossible to do by accident. - Sean McBride
Brady to Edelman -- TOUCHDOWN!!! - Sean McBride
41 to 13. - Sean McBride
Trying to fix Taxi's problem: we need to know: 1. the exact URL for the account she originally deleted 2. the exact URLs for the other accounts that were deleted with that first deletion. - Sean McBride
With that information, perhaps we can figure out what is going on. This stuff isn't rocket science but it does require precise facts. - Sean McBride
Right. She could be thinking that "Taximondo" is a separate "account" from Taxi, when in fact Taximondo is just one of Taxi's feeds. Then she goes to delete her Taximondo feed, but since she imagines that it's an account, she goes and deletes her whole account. If she was Logged In as Taxi at the moment she chose to go to the Delete Account Page, then by choosing to delete it, she... more... - WJones
That's an interesting conjecture, WJones. Plausible. I imagine I could have made a similar error. Say, if I had multiple feeds and wanted to delete one or two. But that leads to one of the very problems i tried to highlight: if FF does not have a pop-up menu with question/statement such as " deleting your account will result in ALL accounts and feeds deleted. Do you want to proceed?" then yes, the technically non-savvy can easily mistake, "feed" for "account" and bingo - there goes down the whole lot. - Danaa
WJones -- good thinking -- quite plausible. If Taxi will give us the URL she deleted first, we can clear this up pronto. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- if you check out the Delete Account page -- -- you will see that it provides highly conspicuous advisories and warnings about committing this operation -- **This operation cannot be undone; all of your data will be permanently deleted** -- the language couldn't be more clear. It even provides a box to fill in: "Type the word "delete" (to... more... - Sean McBride
Danaa proposed having text saying " deleting your account will result in ALL accounts and feeds deleted. Do you want to proceed?" However, the correct text would not say ALL "accounts and". The fact is, deleting her account should only delete Taxi and the feeds in her account (eg. Taxi mondo). BUT in reality, she could have confused her Taximondo feed with her account. She could have... more... - WJones
Has Taxi made any progress in opening a new account on Friendfeed and in describing with precision the steps that led to her original problem? I'm willing to lend a hand, but I still need to understand exactly what is going on -- especially the specific account and URL that was first deleted. - Sean McBride
My best guess is that this was the URL: (note: "taxee", not "taxi") - Sean McBride
She might consider using taxi1, taxione, etc. -- any unused URL name with taxi as the base. - Sean McBride
WJones, your theory makes sense. That's what might have happened - an understandable confusion between feed" and "account". Now at least I know what never to try to do. I am interested in this issue because I lost some good posts of my own and that's something I really don't like to have happened. - Danaa
Still no update on Taxi's travails? We can help her, but we need the specific facts on how she came to delete her account. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
The Samson Option and Narcissistic Rage
I was just reading Joe Nesbo's detective novel Nemesis and came across this interesting passage: - Sean McBride
BEGIN QUOTE - Sean McBride
'On the subject of ancient gods, I assume you have heard of Narkissos, the Greek god who became so enamoured of his own reflection that he couldn't tear himself away? Freud introduced the concept of a narcissist to psychology, a person with an exaggerated sense of uniqueness, obsessed by the dream of boundless success. For the narcissist the need for revenge against those who have... more... - Sean McBride
'Death to whom?' Harry asked. - Sean McBride
'To all.' - Sean McBride
'That's insane,' Beate burst out.   'In fact, that's what I'm saying,' Aune said drily - Sean McBride
END QUOTE - Sean McBride
[Narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury] - Sean McBride
"Narcissistic rage is a reaction to narcissistic injury, which is a perceived threat to a narcissist's self-esteem or self-worth. Narcissistic injury (or narcissistic scar) is a phrase used by Sigmund Freud in the 1920s; narcissistic wound and narcissistic blow are further, almost interchangeable terms. The term narcissistic rage was coined by Heinz Kohut in 1972." - Sean McBride
"Narcissistic rage occurs on a continuum from instances of aloofness, and expression of mild irritation or annoyance, to serious outbursts, including violent attacks. Narcissistic rage reactions are not limited to personality disorders and may be also seen in catatonic, paranoid delusion and depressive episodes. It has also been suggested that narcissists have two layers of rage. The... more... - Sean McBride
Concept to contemplate: group narcissistic rage. - Sean McBride
# a few concepts to contemplate in combination: [group *] 1. aggression 2. archetypes 3. behavioral patterns 4. competition 5. cooperation 6. cultism 7. customs 8. egotism 9. interests 10. legends 11. lobbies 12. memes 13. messianism 14. myths 15. narcissism 16. narcissistic rage 17. neuroses 18. objectives 19. organized crime 20. paranoia 21. personality traits 22. propaganda themes 23. psychological traits 24. self-hypnosis 25. self-worship 26. will to power - Sean McBride
Btw, any Jo Nesbo fans out there? I discovered him recently -- good stuff. - Sean McBride
I've read all Nesbo's novels. I don't even bother reading US fiction any more---its also has been so dumbed down by Jewish publishing putting out 99% fiction by Jewish writers of no talent and its all below mediocre. Great writers of worthwhile fiction that often incoporate some political event with astounding character development come mostly from Norway and Europe now. Another sector... more... - American
For high-quality detective, mystery and suspense fiction by American authors, Barry Eisler, David Baldacci, Lee Child and Randy Wayne White stand out. American literary fiction has been in steep decline for decades now. - Sean McBride
I now plan to read all of Nesbo's novels. - Sean McBride
I have read all of Lee Child books also....I like his fast moving narrative style. He doesn't do 'extraneous filler' crap that doesn't move the plot. - American
I'm also a big Lee Child fan -- the Jack Reacher character is truly memorable. (Now that I think of it, Lee Child is British by origin.) - Sean McBride
Some time ago I looked at a book called Tuesdays with Morrie with themes of reflection/compassion highlighted in the reviews. Well the author, I discovered, was not writing a universal story but a Zionist tribal one. Here's his sense of understanding: If a writer of a different ethnicity wrote such a column... more... - peacefly
c; Israeli op+novelist - Sean McBride
One reason I now avoid most US fiction writers is that I started noticing in too many books by jewish writers --like Johnathan Kellerman for instance who I use to read were peppered with too much jewishness--as in too much mentioning and praising of jewish qualities and etc---and then the last book of his I read was entirely based on a Jewish Israeli operating in the Us and how 'moral'... more... - American
One could bring some clarity to this issue with a bit of social science: sort ethnic groups by number of ethnocentric novels on the New York Times fiction bestsellers list for the past half century. The hard numbers would tell the tale. - Sean McBride
Also: sort ethnic groups by number of *ethnic nationalist* novels on the New York Times fiction bestsellers list for the past half century - Sean McBride
And: the quality of the ethnocentrism matters a great deal -- is it gentle and understated, part of the natural background? -- or is it belligerent, xenophobic, propagandistic or triumphalist? - Sean McBride
Jo Nesbo's novels are *mildly* ethnocentric (Norwegian to be exact) -- but that is because he is a Norwegian author living in Norway. There is not the slightest hint in his writings of a chauvinistic or confrontational attitude about Norwegian ethnic identity. - Sean McBride
Daniel Silva is a good example of an American novelist whose pro-Israel and pro-Jewish propaganda is crude and over the top. He is a militant ethnic nationalist. Joel C. Rosenberg is another example. - Sean McBride
In Nesbo's fiction parts of it are often critical of Norway or elements of Norway's politics....cant remember the title of the one I am specifically thinking of, but it centered around some politics concerning WWII. - American
I don't read Silva any more either. And I read of lot of fiction because it is my way of 'powering down', so to speak, and mentally relaxing before I go to sleep at night. I have almost run out of worthwhile Us authors to read except for a very few. - American
Truman Capote railed that “the Jewish mafia has systematically frozen” gentiles “out of the literary scene.” In a 1968 essay, “On Not Being a Jew,” Edward Hoagland complained that he was “being told in print and occasionally in person that I and my heritage lacked vitality . . . because I could field no ancestor who had hawked copper pots in a Polish shtetl.” Katherine Anne Porter,... more... - American
The Uber Jews naturally try to label all these authors as anti semites for stating what was obviously "obvious' to the most famous non Jewish writers when Jews moved into US publishing houses. Many complained that any Jewish characters in their books that were even slightly non flattering to Jews needed tobe changed or edited out. - American
As far as these authors being anti semites instead of just resentful of the 'discrimination' against them by the Jewish publishers.....I am reminded of this------>'' If you go into a bar and get your ass whipped, maybe the people in the bar were wrong; but if you go into 10 bars in one night and get beat down in every single one of them, chances are that it isn't them, it's you''. Not everyone who criticizes the Jewish clique can be wrong. - American
There was a nice article last year in Salon about why American authors do not and haven't gotten literature Nobel price for lo so many years. It specifically mentioned Philip Roth, who last year, like this year, and every year before went sulking when Noobels were announced. The article did a masterful job of saying everything and noting many reasons without once touching on the obvious... more... - Danaa
Also, thanks for the tips, guys - did not know about Joe nesbo (so little time for anything but noon-fiction. I am all the poorer for it too). - Danaa
Danaa -- [Google; nobel prize philip roth] >> [Alexander Nazaryan: Why American novelists don’t deserve the Nobel Prize] - Sean McBride
I made an attempt to read Bellow and Roth but couldn't get all the way thru them.. Bellow's disdain for non Jewish society was glaring right off the bat and Roth?,,,ugh,ugh,ugh...too dark, too ethnic, too self navel glazing. Call me simple but I like fiction with some 'redemption' in the tale. - American
I read that Scarlet Johanson was going to direct a movie based on one of Capote's novels..gawd, can you imagine what that will turn out to be? Does that smack of Jews in Hollywood rewarding her for her Israel defense or not. Cant remember which Capote novel, will have to go look it up. - American
Thanks sean. You saved me the work - that was the salon article. the comments on it were interesting too. Everyone skirting the glaring problem and looking everywhere else but directly. - Danaa
Sean McBride
Still don't think that cyberwarfare is a big deal? Check out the developing Sony situation. In truth, cyberwarfare is going to be the biggest deal of all.
A mad rush is underway by governments around the world to identify and provide large salaries to the world's most skilled hackers. Have a shady background? No problem. Perhaps the shadier the better. What matters is the skill set. Hacking in the future will be able to make or break the world's most powerful nations, corporations and institutions. - Sean McBride
Advanced weapons systems are powerful. What is even more powerful is acquiring covert control of advanced weapons systems by hacking. That's leverage. - Sean McBride
Want to bring down any leader in the world? Hack into their personal data. There are a zillion opportunistic approaches to exploit. - Sean McBride
Brave new world indeed. - Sean McBride
Richard Clarke's books on this subject are good reads. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
# The Drudge Report this morning 1. PAPER: SONY SUSPENDS FILMING 2. REPORT: SONY Unable to Process Payments... 3. Delays premiere of hacker movie... 4. Disturbing NEW WARNING Flashed on Staffers' Computers... - Sean McBride
Richard Clarke has been on top of this for quite some time -- brilliant guy. - Sean McBride
Hackers should start going after 'the money' if they want to make a real difference. Hack and send the elites and Zios money caches out into space where it cant be retrieved. Loot their hedge funds and WS accounts. Do it to all of them. - American
But here's the catch: the plutocrats are scooping up all the smartest hackers they can get their hands on with irresistible financial lures and incentives. - Sean McBride
yes Sean - they buy whom they can. But they can't buy everyone, can they? they didn't buy Snowden (though they certainly tried with cushy job and all), and the y couldn't buy David Applebaum and so far, Assange is resisting their offers too (or he wouldn't have to continue and be holed up at the embassy). A few good ones is all we need to cause havoc. - Danaa
The question is, in terms of the long game, which hacker faction will be able to dominate all the other hacker factions. - Sean McBride
Russian and Chinese have potential, but probably US&Britain, since our systems are English based, Microsoft/Apple based ones. - WJones
I would expect the Chinese to excel at hacking -- certainly they have the brainpower to excel. I would also expect Israelis to excel -- being a bit Aspergery is an asset in this field -- almost a prerequisite. I'll wager that Unit 8200 is damned good. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
1. AIPAC head 2. billionaire 3. Bloomberg News writer 4. CFR member 5. Iran War ringleader 6. Iraq War ringleader 7. Israeli citizen 8. JINSA member 9. liberal Zionist 10. neoconservative 11. NPR pundit 12. PNAC member 13. torture ringleader 14. Washington Post writer 15. WINEP member - Sean McBride
A very few examples. How many blanks can you fill in? (I can think of a few thousand categories of interest.) - Sean McBride
{c; *category1+*category2; *instance} That is a compound boolean category with two categories. One can create statements with any number of compound boolean categories for fine-grained analysis. - Sean McBride
# there are many other ops in the world: * 1. British 2. Chinese 3. German 4. Google 5. Japanese 6. Lockheed Martin 7. Masonic 8. Muslim 9. NATO 10. North Korean 11. NSA 12. Pakistani 13. Roman Catholic 14. Russian 15. Saudi - Sean McBride
Project: extract all the category/instance pairs from all Mondoweiss articles and comments. Store them in a single plain text list. (The single file would include tens of thousands of statements/lines.) - Sean McBride
# one can create an ontology of subops for ops, for instance: 1. c; Israeli op subop; ADL op 2. c; Israeli op subop; Christian Zionist op 3. c; Israeli op subop; JINSA op 4. c; Israeli op subop; Mossad op 5. c; Israeli op subop; Unit 8200 op - Sean McBride
One thing is for certain: if you get overfocused on Israel, you will cease to understand what is really going on in the world. There are many other powerful players, many of them working very quietly in the background. They keep a low profile. - Sean McBride
The chief objective of semantic markup? -- to create a computable model of all the entities, relations, structures and processes in the world -- to see them whole and to understand their minute interactions. - Sean McBride
Those who keep a "low profile" - are they what David icke calls the "lizard people"? or is it simpler - the grouping of plutocrats who are currently managing the Empire and its minions? - Danaa
may be it's the protocols come to life? - Danaa
The key principles of the Protocols have been understood by sharp operators for many centuries -- several millennia even. Call them Illuminati; call them whatever you will. They tend to control history because they can run mental circles around most of the human race. - Sean McBride
No doubt in my mind the Zios are firm believers in and followers of the Protocols. But the Protocols tactics for domination aren't unique to them alone. Its really a basic step guide for any groups out to gain power and assert dominance. - American
Many sharp operators understand the Protocols inside and out without ever reading it -- they understand these matters instinctively and intuitively. And most of them are probably not Jewish. - Sean McBride
American -- keep your mind open to the possibility that non-Zios are playing Zios to the hilt -- permitting them -- *encouraging* them -- to think that they are in control. It would be a huge mistake to underestimate the mental power and cunning of all the non-Jewish players I mentioned above. - Sean McBride
The semantic mark-up won't help against the "lizard people" (who may or may not be lizards), eh? - Danaa
Well I have tried to figure out who or which non Zios might be running and profiting from the Zio mafia partnership but cant come up with any. I know a lot of 'piggybacking' goes on among group and individual special interest movers and shakers as in---you help us with our/my agenda for the Ukraine or whatever and you will get xxx out of it. But I don't see any "Non Jewish group" that... more... - American
Whichever player has the most powerful information tools usually wins -- especially in the knowledge-based era in which we now live. - Sean McBride
Well, I have mentioned the military-industrial-intelligence complex to you several times -- do you have any idea of how powerful it is? Among many other things, it controls NSA, which is capable of spying on the entire world in great depth and detail. - Sean McBride
I don't think there is any one "Group" that has a 'World Plan' (except the Isr Zios for Israel). I think its more like the Wild Wild West--where you have various rouge groups or individuals out there gun slinging for their interest or ideology. Thats why its all FUBAR. - American
# Some of the following organizations and institutions, working together, have done a good job of running the show for quite some time: 1. Bilderberg Group 2. Cambridge (University) 3. CFR 4. CIA 5. DIA 6. GCHQ 7. Goldman Sachs 8. Harvard 9. IMF 10. MI6 11. MIT 12. NATO 13. NSA 14. Oxford 15. Vatican 16. World Bank - Sean McBride
And they definitely have "world plans." - Sean McBride
The military-industrial complex is one of Keith, the anti US imperialism, ranters favorite examples. He claims we give Isr aid because the US weapons industry wantsto sell to Isr. Except it doesn't even hold up either. I think I referred you to Chas Freeman's article on this. The US weapons makers sales to Isr are a drop in the bucket and doesnt even come within spitting distance of... more... - American
As far as the US weapons and intelligence complexes actually being responsible for getting the US gov to start wars and conflicts so they can sell more weapons and build bigger spy kingdoms---I don't know, that seems so far beyond evil its hard to contemplate. - American
I can't imagine anything easier to contemplate -- it's human nature at work. Human groups tend to pursue their interests with maximum force. - Sean McBride
It's not about selling arms to Israel -- it's about profiting from the Global War on Terror and the Clash of Civilizations to the tune of trillions of dollars. It's the biggest of big businesses. Israel is a tool in exploiting a magnificent business opportunity. Look at how many expensive weapons we sell to Saudi Arabia to help protect it from Israel. - Sean McBride
I think many someones would have blown the whistle on that much much faster if that were the case. It would have been easier for the politicians to do that then it has been for those who have blown the whistle on Isr lobby knowing they would be called anti semites. - American
So you are saying the US gov, lobbied by the War-Weapons Industry, keeps Isr in the ME and lets it rampage on everyone as a way creating chaos and of getting countries like Saudi to buy US weapons. - American
What whistle would one blow precisely? The machinations here are quite subtle. The MIIC works hand in glove with the Israel lobby under the pretext of doing the right thing -- of aiding a small beleaguered democratic outpost in the Middle East while fighting evil "antisemitic" forces around the world. It's a superb cover -- and the income is staggering. - Sean McBride
That is exactly what I am saying -- seems obvious to me. Meanwhile US national security bureaucracies are rapidly expanding their budgets and empires. What's not to like from their standpoint? It's a sweet deal. - Sean McBride
Well let me tell you this---a long time ago I read about the first meeting between JINSA and the CEO of a major weapons company---it was expressed as this----'since we cant beat you we will cooperate with you''. I wish to hell I could find that again..I think it may have been an investigation by Mother Jones or The Nation. - American
Where I disagree with Keith and Noam Chomsky is that I think the Jewish lobby is at least an equal player in this game. It is doing all the heavy lifting in propagandizing Zionism to the American public through a rich network of policy centers and media outlets. - Sean McBride
Well I think the Jewish Lobby 'started' the game and having the 'juice' in congress the arms groups went along or at least didnt protest. - American
But here's the thing: you never know when, down the line, the MIIC might pull the plug on Israel and Zionism. Its self-interest changes with changing conditions in the world. - Sean McBride
MIIC=military-industrial-intelligence complex - Sean McBride
But powerful forces in the West encouraged and enabled Zionism from the very beginning -- think back to that Winston Churchill essay I brought to your attention. Divide and conquer tactics applied to the Jewish world. The objective was to defang Jewish movements on the left. - Sean McBride
Think: what benefits, say, have Dick Cheney, Keith Alexander and Michael Hayden derived from the Zionist-instigated Global War on Terror? - Sean McBride
'' think back to that Winston Churchill essay I brought to your attention. Divide and conquer tactics applied to the Jewish world. The objective was to defang Jewish movements on the left...sean) .....The problem with that theory is there weren't any Jewish movements on the left. There were only two Jewish movements going on in the Churchill era--->Jewish Bolshevism in Russia and the... more... - American
I really get glazed over eyes at the way people get all into talking about socialism, marxism, capitalism, etc.etc.. Because it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the leaders of these movements---except in which they think will have the most support----Because I dont care what kind of system is set up there will still be the *People At The Top* (Elites of the movement) of any... more... - American
American -- Churchill and other Western leaders believed that Jews were the dominating force behind Marxism and communism in Russia and the early Soviet Union, and Jews were in fact the dominating force behind a wide variety of hard left (and soft left) movements in the United States and Europe from the 1930s through the present day. There is a large collection of scholarly literature... more... - Sean McBride
American -- you're right -- all political systems end up under the control of elites -- that seems to be how human societies operate. (One can analyze human societies in the same way that one analyzes ant or bee societies -- certain behavioral patterns predominate.) - Sean McBride
Fwd: old, same old,repeating history, Russia, Germany, US (via
Taxi...this link is showing 'file not found'.....try fiddling with it some more or it may be you have to contact FF adm. Meanwhile only by clicking my American 'profile' page can I see anything from you cause all our direct message are gone and all your old comments everywhere on sean and pepsi feeds are gone too. So however you got this to me keep using it till you get a good feed link going that we can pass on. - American
American - it's the same for me. I can't see anything from taxi, period and all discussions/direct messages with her are gone as well. - Danaa
Might she have deleted her own account? - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
# what doesn't work in online communications
1. personal attacks 2. verbal abuse 3. feuding 4. flailing 5. hysteria 6. shouting 7. shrieking 8. thrashing - Sean McBride
Smart people instantly and automatically filter all that out -- they don't have time. - Sean McBride
What brought that about, again? is this directed at someone in particular or is it an admonishment a la Moses' tablets issued to the wider human race? - Danaa
Actually, I'd say that personal attacks and flailing work very well, seeing the immense popularity of the latest SONY hack? it's a treasure trove of behind the scenes gossip and everyone who is anyone in show business has commented on it, flailing all the way to kingdom come. - Danaa
Also, hysteria has worked for the pro-Israel crowd rather well (Holocauset! gevalt! anti-semitism!) all these years. may be a bit blanted by now, but the tool still works great against any public figure and any politico who runs for office. So yes, smearing works, shrieking works and personal attacks work - at least for the party with the werwithal. - Danaa
I am just observing Internet behavior in general -- and noticing what kinds of communications I pay attention to and which kinds of communications I don't. - Sean McBride
In terms of pushing the masses this way and that, shrieky and rabid propaganda often does in fact work -- take Fox News as an example, which relentlessly pushes fear, paranoia, rage and hate buttons. - Sean McBride
I am talking about communications that work best in influencing elite opinion -- not mass opinion. - Sean McBride
I doubt the real 'elite' actually read any of our communications. they are too busy being full of themselves issuing their own or denigrating others'. The ones that I consider "real elites" are hardly the ones at the top of the line - it's more of a community of "exiled", like Chris hedges, Snowden, Greenwald, Stieglitz etc. just to mention a very very short list. My special elites are... more... - Danaa
I should add that what especially doesn't work in *online discussion forums* is out-of-control and self-indulgent speech -- especially verbal abuse -- it is capable of bringing any forum to a grinding halt. Personal attacks rapidly escalate into infantile feuds. - Sean McBride
I'll wager that quite a few influential minds read Mondoweiss (the main articles) -- if the writing wasn't crisp, calm and fact-based, which it is usually, they wouldn't bother. They visit Mondoweiss with the expectation of acquiring new important facts about Israeli politics that are delivered with a minimum of noise. - Sean McBride
Regarding MW, I am sort of dropping it as far as commenting goes, although I will still check the articles there. Not that I dont appreciate the way it has exposed Israel and I/P, but the intelligence level in the comment section has gone down down down. So many good commenters left since all the banning, and I'm not referring to just the banned ones. All it is now is the same people... more... - American
I agree -- the golden age of the Mondoweiss comment section is over -- it was quite impressive while it lasted. - Sean McBride
FF works better for my use, even to make comments on MW articles, doesn't take as much of my time, don't have to wonder if its going thru and it has a edit function...and a delete so if what you said comes out all wrong you can get rid of - American
American -- you GET FF :) -- I'm impressed -- yup to all that. Fleetness, flexibility and personal control is the name of the game. - Sean McBride
You can have a real conversation here -- even in real time -- without too much interference. - Sean McBride
I rarely feel motivated to visit the Mondoweiss comment section these days -- I am not seeing much in the way of new information and ideas. And often just scanning the headlines of new Mondoweiss articles in the news feed in this group tells me all I need to know. - Sean McBride
The elite (authority) don't listen to the people unless they do scream. Only ways to get the attention of an elite these days is a briefcase full of money or a gun to their head. - American
The briefcase full of money approach is highly reliable -- and relatively risk-free compared to other methods. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
On the entanglement of Judaism with Zionism (Part 2)
Annie, - Sean McBride
Religious Zionism -- Zionism completely entangled with and powered by Judaism -- has become the biggest story in Israeli politics over the last few years -- religious Zionists are acquiring increasing control over the Israeli government and Israeli military and security services -- they are driving mainstream Israeli politics to the extreme right in the name of Judaism. - Sean McBride
These trends are discussed all the time in Israeli and Jewish media. The best Jewish and non-Jewish minds who are knowledgeable about Israeli politics are sounding the alarm about the issue with increasing urgency. - Sean McBride
These remarks by Shabtai Shavit, a former head of Mossad, are typical: - Sean McBride
<blockquote> I am concerned that for the first time, I am seeing haughtiness and arrogance, together with more than a bit of the messianic thinking that rushes to turn the conflict into a holy war. If this has been, so far, a local political conflict that two small nations have been waging over a small and defined piece of territory, major forces in the religious Zionist movement are... more... - Sean McBride
"I am concerned because I see history repeating itself. The nation of Israel is galloping blindly in a time tunnel to the age of Bar Kochba and his war on the Roman Empire. The result of that conflict was several centuries of national existence in the Land of Israel followed by 2,000 years of exile...." - Sean McBride
"The religious Zionist movement ... believes the Jews are “God’s chosen.” This movement, which sanctifies territory beyond any other value, is prepared to sacrifice everything, even at the price of failure and danger to the Third Commonwealth." </blockquote> - Sean McBride
The views of Jewish establishment religious leaders on Zionism -- in Israel and the Diaspora -- are having a much greater impact on these developments than your views and those of Mooser. They are in a much more powerful position to define Judaism to the world than you are. - Sean McBride
It would be helpful if you and Mooser focused on pushing back against these dangerous trends in Israeli and Zionist politics -- and that will require acknowledging that there are major problems in the thinking of the Jewish religious establishment about Judaism and its relations with Zionism. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Sean, why do you expect a different response from the editors and some commenters at MW? Haven't you been saying the same thing for several years to the same people? I came across a MW archive from 2012-- long before I began (and ended) commenting. There were a only a few commenters who acknowledged the truths that you're expressing: you, of course, Thomson Rutherford, American, Jeffrey... more... - weareone
Indeed -- "in denial" -- to a degee that is ridiculous. When you examine the back and forth on this subject on Mondoweiss (to the degree that it has been permitted), you will notice that the replies by Mooser and Annie in particular have been completely irrational, insulting, ungrounded in facts of any kind, etc. It is important for them to maintain the illusion and falsehood that... more... - Sean McBride
So be it. They're entitled to their opinion. Perhaps it's time to move on. - weareone
Phil Weiss himself has approved numerous articles on Mondoweiss that have developed this theme -- it's clear that he doesn't share the views of Mooser and Annie. I think it's important to keep up pressure on this front. - Sean McBride
Well, I'm not as clear on the editors motivations as you seem to be, given the banning of Jeffrey Blankfort, but regardless--I wish you luck, you'll need it. :) - weareone
My impression is that Phil Weiss has come under a great deal of pressure to censor certain topics concerning Israel and Zionism -- and that he has occasionally bent to the pressure. But he knows the score. - Sean McBride
Regarding the need for luck -- Annie has repeatedly held up or failed to pass through perfectly civil and carefully documented posts (like these recent ones) which challenge her and Mooser's views about the relations between Judaism and Zionism -- that's a convenient way to try to control a debate. :) - Sean McBride
Yes, but it's their site---they can do as they please, which is one of the reasons they've lost, imo, some very valuable commenters like Blankfort and Thomson Rutherford. - weareone
True enough -- publications and forums are free to moderate their sites any way they choose. But I think a few personalities have succeeded in driving away many of Mondoweiss's most intelligent and knowledgeable readers and commenters. Most of us noticed quite some time ago that Mooser contributes absolutely nothing in the way of useful information about Mideast politics -- he simply uses the site to express his shallow narcissism -- it's all about his fragile and needy ego. - Sean McBride
In any case, on the Internet it is easy to route around any obstacles with a bit of initiative. - Sean McBride
But yet the editors and some commenters continually praise his commentary. What does that tell you? - weareone
It tells me a great deal about those particular people. :) They are in the business of damage control -- they are trying to create a firewall to protect the creators and lead promoters of Zionism from the destructive consequences of Zionism. This is a project that requires grotesque and twisty intellectual acrobatics of the type that Mooser regularly serves up. - Sean McBride
Give it up. You aren't going to convince those like Mooser that there was/is anything in Judaism that gave rise to either religious (chosen people) or secular (nation of people) Zionism. The proof of the concept of/ belief in Zionism ( a 'nation' of people) within Judaism can be found during the Enlightenment period in the Rabbi's arguments with the nations on what the 'citizenship' the... more... - American
Yes. - weareone
Sean, I was responding "yes" to you, but I also agree with American. - weareone
American -- you've been right about this issue all along -- as I have acknowledged before. What makes Mooser's and Annie's behavior exceptionally weird is that leading representatives of Judaism proclaim the unity of Judaism and Zionism on a daily basis in leading Israeli and Jewish media. When this material is brought to their attention, they try to pretend that they didn't see it. We are far out of the realm of the rational here -- in crazy territory. - Sean McBride
You reach a point with this kind of lunacy where you lose patience -- it has to be treated with withering contempt. - Sean McBride
All that happens when you pursue that is you get put on their hamster wheel. The hamster wheel being Jews are both a religion and a people. If you argue as I have that Jews were not a 'distinct ethnic people' but a religious group--and that Jewish CULTURE and their belief in their ETHNIC STATUS grew out of Judaism the 'religious' Moosers types will deny any Jewish CULTURE (the Zionist... more... - American
"But I think a few personalities have succeeded in driving away many of Mondoweiss's most intelligent and knowledgeable readers and commenters."-Sean. --You seem to be protecting the editors from the consequences of their actions. It wasn't a commenter that banned Blankfort or banned certain topics which drove away commenters who might otherwise provide some balance to the site and expose some truths. That decision was made by the editors. - weareone
Phil wants to, or does, or did believe that Jews have a superior 'culture' to others---regardless of where it came from,whether it be religious or ethnic. - American
"Phil ,et al don't want is any discussion like that to lead to any *examination of the Jewish culture*." If I may borrow your saying, American--- nail on head. :) - weareone
Sean, might you consider a name change for your feed? Does Mondoweiss align with your mission, vision and values? - weareone
A name change is something to think about -- this group started as a mere convenience, a location to track new Mondoweiss articles via its RSS feed. Then it expanded a bit to accommodate commenters and comments that were blocked or banned on Mondoweiss for questionable reasons (starting with the Blankfort expulsion). Increasingly it has included stories and information that Mondoweiss hasn't covered. - Sean McBride
American -- I can't find anything to disagree with you about today :) -- sometimes you hit the nail hard on the head in a way that it needs to be hit -- with might and force. Running into too much bullshit tends to provoke that kind of expression. - Sean McBride
Well, thanks very much Sean and American (as well as a few others whom I'm sure I've left out, though not intentionally) -you've tried to expose truths on these issues for several years. - weareone
weareone -- you have also provided some valuable commentary and insights on these topics -- and you are definitely one of Mondoweiss's sharpest readers and observers. - Sean McBride
Thanks. :) - weareone
I agree with wearone here about the pointlessness of taking on Mondoweiss in an area they clearly are not willing to engage in. As I often noted, I believe it's not so much about the topic (cf. Zionism being inherent to Judaism, which is really a tautology). it's about non-Jewish people interjecting into the discussion. They simply can't allow that because of the paranoia in jewish... more... - Danaa
The reason this line of debate is pointless on MW is because the site is ultimately run to penetrate and influence Jewish people. Not so much the establishment but the ones thinking of peeling off it. Surely, no one needs to convince the palestinians of what's going on so they are in and welcome. neither are they (Palestinians) taken seriously as potential commentators on matters... more... - Danaa
Danaa, I appreciate your comment. One question--when American says that the rabbis argued for Jews to be a separate nation, I understand that may refer to many rabbis, but what about the rabbis of sects like Neturei Karta who have always said that Jews were forbidden from having a separate nation according to the Torah? Is that community very large? - weareone
weareone -- my impression (after studying the subject in some depth) is that the influence of the ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist community in the larger mainstream Jewish community in the United States, Europe and Israel is so negligible as to be nonexistent. They have been effectively marginalized by the Jewish establishment -- they have no chance whatever of gaining political traction. - Sean McBride
Thanks Sean--I think it's interesting that even though they've been marginalized by the Jewish establishment and even if their numbers are small, they seem to be very well known and respected by anti-zionists internationally. Perhaps that recognition will begin to occur in the US, as well, as the numerous veils covering the truths of Zionism and the Jewish establishment's involvement in it are being removed. - weareone
A major problem the ultra-Orthodox are facing in promoting their views -- they are poorly integrated into the most influential institutions that dominate American and European elite and mass opinion -- they possess little political leverage. - Sean McBride
wearone, first, neturei karta is a tiny sect among the ultra-orthodox, though admittedly they get a lion share of public attention. They are and were not the only ultra-orthodox sect that were decidedly not ready for a zionist state, but the majority of the ultra's have long ago crossed the line to the Rubicon. - Danaa
Your other question - about the rabbis: yes, throughout the middle ages the teaching was that jews are a separate people (they did not use the word "nation" and certainly not in the sense it is used today in English). The admonition for Jews to stay "a people apart" was absolutely crucial to preventing assimilation. It should not come as a surprise that even post-enlightenement many... more... - Danaa
It may also interest you to know, wearone (and I did not study the issue in any depth. I just have first hand knowledge) that in israel itself, the neturei-karta sect are held in rather low esteem. They are considered as a kind of a joke - waiting for the messiah to show up on a white donkey and all. I think they became heroes to anti-zionists which kind of gave the movement new life.... more... - Danaa
"These remarks by Shabtai Shavit, a former head of Mossad, are typical" Nothing new about these remarks. It isn't religious Zionism, it is Zionism -- yes, the tribal culture development from a religion is to blame -- as a whole that calls for holy war. Zionist thinkers from the beginning have called for holy war even though they don't use the language like ISIS. They have been doing it... more... - peacefly
Judaism was the original religion. Zionism is the old religion founded on paranoia, tribe, and so accommodates atheists and believers alike. From Chomsky to Golstein. Now secularists like the former Mossad head are getting worried because the new wave of Zionism, which is getting overwhelming input from the religious whose religious upbringing has come in a Zionist bubble, is not... more... - peacefly
Thanks for the comments Danaa. As you mentioned, I'm aware that in Israel, anti-Zionist orthodox Jews are marginalized, even persecuted. - weareone
Sean McBride
Another comment to Mooser on Judaism and Zionism
You haven't managed to produce a single useful cite, fact or insight about the increasing entanglement of Judaism with Zionism in the official statements of the Jewish establishment or about the alarming rise of the power of religious Zionists in Israeli society and the Israeli government -- issues that are frankly discussed all the time in leading Jewish and Israeli media. No response... more... - Sean McBride
Perhaps you are worried that Judaism will be blamed by the world for the beliefs and policies of Zionism and the Israeli government -- actually, that would make sense -- you should be extremely worried. At this point, if Zionism goes down, it will take down Judaism with it. Mainstream establishment Judaism has gone all in on betting everything on Zionism -- it wasn't hijacked by Zionism... more... - Sean McBride
You can believe whatever you like about Judaism and Zionism -- your views are having not the slightest impact on the Israeli government, the Israel lobby, the Jewish establishment or the Christian Zionists who exert so much influence in the US Congress. - Sean McBride
By the way, I can recall a time when the Mondoweiss comments section was brimming over with knowledgeable posts that included a wealth of high-quality documentation, quotes and links -- reading the debates here was an education. What happened? Much of that valuable discussion stream seems to have evaporated. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
I think many former valuable commenters came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the effort to make thoughtful and well-documented posts to Mondoweiss -- the culture there no longer encourages that activity. What is left is a Mooser culture -- emotional and ungrounded opinionating rules. The Mondoweiss golden age was nice while it lasted. But I still look forward to Phil Weiss's articles -- they are as solid as ever -- and always fact-based. - Sean McBride
Regarding Annie: an old school political leftie, more a gutsy political activist (I respect that) than a deep thinker, with little interest in or mastery of history, literature, scholarship or the social sciences. Her writing and thinking have grown increasingly sloppy, disorganized and emotional in recent years. It's impossible to pursue a logical discussion with her -- she's all over... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, whatever my opinions are I wish you didn't feel it necessary to stoop to criticize and condescend to people like Annie, or even Mooser. You may not like their take or disinterest in the topic you want to discuss but that's their prerogative. You keep scratching at a festering wound, but at MW they don't want a big brouhaha about judaism/zionism. It's their choice. I think you should accept that and move on. There's plenty of issues to take on and if they don't want that to be their issue, so be it. - Danaa
Basically, Sean, they don't want to engage with you on that topic. Not because the topic is boring or irrelevant but because they don't want to debate it with you. That's all. I can see it annoys you, but there are options. You can post topics like this here and see if you can get interested people to talk about it. Chances are not too many will come over because the interest may not be there, except among jews and a few others who are not. - Danaa
I disagree -- they have actively tried to censor that topic on Mondoweiss -- that is the clear overall pattern. They don't want *anyone* discussing the connections between Judaism and Zionism -- that is an ideological red line for them. I have interacted with both of them more than you have (including with Annie, behind the scenes, in email) -- believe me, I get where they are coming... more... - Sean McBride
Danaa -- this group exists in part to discuss some of the issues that Mondoweiss has tried to censor. Anything that goes on anywhere in the world regarding Mideast politics (including on Mondoweiss) is fair game here. If your posts won't clear on Mondoweiss, and you think they are important, post them here. - Sean McBride
I respect the privacy of others regarding email communications always -- those matters will remain private. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- another aspect of this controversy: I think Phil Weiss is in fact intensely interested in discussing the problematic relations between Judaism and Zionism -- otherwise he wouldn't have published numerous articles on the topic (think of Joel Kovel, for instance). I don't think Mooser and Annie Robbins come close to representing his views on the subject -- and it's his blog, not... more... - Sean McBride
How much interest has Mondoweiss shown in the relations between Judaism and Zionism? Check it out for yourself: [Google; judaism] How much=a great deal. Perhaps you are correct, however: the prospect of non-Jews delving into these issues may make even Phil Weiss and Adam Horowitz nervous. But I doubt that they... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, you didn't get my point. I said it's you they didn't want to debate the topic with YOU. or American. Or anyone else they perceive as not Jewish. Not Mooser, not Annie and not Phil - none wanted to have this conversation because non-jews speak up on it, and that's where it ends. Annie is a gate-keeper in this regard, not being jewish herself. In her case, she simply has a... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- I got your point from the first time you made it and I understand what has been going on -- the social and cultural dynamics at work. I chose to press ahead with an objective in mind -- mission accomplished. Meta discussion about this situation in play. - Sean McBride
The "situation" -- the many incidents in which "anti-Zionists" have tried to exert authoritarian control and censorship over the critique of Zionism. It's an issue to focus on with force -- it's going to blow up - the sooner the better. - Sean McBride
I made a comment on one of your new discussions with Mooser and Annie, Sean. However, I am worried that I won't see replies to my comment come up in my profile, which i use to see if there are replies. With their new system, you cannot make replies to a message that is already pretty far down a discussion tree and can only reply to messages that are higher up the "trunk". So I had to... more... - WJones
WJones -- I will look for your post. The Mondoweiss comment system is now so messed up in so many ways that it is almost unusable -- very user-hostile. - Sean McBride
It hasn't been approved yet, but it's just one sentence asking Mooser what he meant about something he said to you. The problem is more of a general one that I want to know how people respond to me there, when their replies could not be put in a reply box under my own comments because of their "reply-tree" system. - WJones
Sean McBride
An interesting person -- someone to be understood. Figure out his social network and its place in the big scheme of things. - Sean McBride
Which politicians on the contemporary scene in the United States, Europe, Iran and the Arab world do you support? - Sean McBride
I am not defending or expressing support for Ashton Carter or Ram Ben Barak, by the way. But I would like to acquire some basic understanding about them -- starting with the most important facts about them. - Sean McBride
I didn't express support for Ashton Carter. I am curious to get a handle on his social and political network and career track record in order to be able to predict what policies he is likely to promote. A key question: is he likely to support the two-state solution in an aggressive way (like John Kerry and Barack Obama) or line up more with Likud Zionists and neoconservatives? Where does he stand on Iran? I don't know yet. I was inviting people here to help flesh out his bio and expand our knowledgebase. - Sean McBride
The "Two Minutes Hate" approach to politics: [Two Minutes Hate] "Two Minutes Hate, from George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, is a daily period in which Party members of the society of Oceania must watch a film depicting the Party's enemies (notably Emmanuel Goldstein and his followers) and express their hatred for them." I'm not into it. - Sean McBride
"Orwell did not invent the idea behind the term "two minutes hate"; it was already in use in the First World War. At that time, British writers satirised the German campaign of hatred against the English, and imagined a Prussian family sitting around the kitchen table having its "morning hate"." - Sean McBride
Another analogy: ritualistic collective spitting at Christians, women and other groups in Jerusalem. - Sean McBride
Human nature at its most debased. - Sean McBride
Ok -- this is disturbing: "Carter has been adamant in his insistence that the United States consider the use of force in its efforts to prevent the proliferation of programs that could provide the capability to produce nuclear weapons programs." - Sean McBride
But there is some complexity here: "The most significant action taken by the United States to counter WMD since September 11 has been the invasion of Iraq. Although at the time intelligence suggesting a recrudescence of Saddam Hussein's WMD programs appeared to justify the war, it now seems that the intelligence was incorrect. Meanwhile, North Korea has quadrupled its stock of... more... - Sean McBride
Carter's neocon connections: "In 2008, Carter was one of several future Obama appointees who served on a Michael Makovsky-ledteam that approved a controversial report on Iran published by the Bipartisan Policy Center (BPC). A lead drafter of the report—titled "Meeting the Challenge: U.S. Policy Toward Iranian Nuclear Development"—was American Enterprise Institute fellow Michael Rubin, an outspoken proponent of militarist U.S. policies in the Middle East." - Sean McBride
"Other participants included Henry Sokolski; WINEP scholar and Obama adviser Dennis Ross; Stephen Rademaker, the husband of AEI's Danielle Pletkawho worked under John Bolton in the State Department; and Kenneth Weinstein, CEO of the Hudson Institute." - Sean McBride
HOWEVER: "On the other hand, Carter has expressed skepticism about the value of a direct military strike, either by Israel or the United States, on Iran's nuclear installations. In his contribution to a 2009 Center for a New American Security report titled Iran: Assessing U.S. Strategic Options, Carter wrote that a direct U.S. attack on Iran's Natanz faculty would likely have little long-term impact on the country's alleged bomb program." - Sean McBride
HOWEVER: "With respect to an Israeli strike, he emphasized the negative impact such a strike would have on U.S. interests: "The benefit to Israel of such a strike—delaying Iran's acquisition of a bomb—could be estimated in much the same way as the benefit of a U.S. strike. The cost to Israel is harder to estimate. Unlike the United States, Israel is not involved in any multilateral... more... - Sean McBride
My take so far: Ashton Carter is a traditional American foreign policy realist who is playing head games with the neocons. I strongly doubt that he is a Zionist in any meaningful sense of the term. But I need to dig into this more. I agree with him that North Korean nuclear weapons represent a major threat to the United States -- I've been arguing that for a decade. - Sean McBride
Bottom line: Obama is counting on Ashton Carter to support current American policy with regard to Iran -- continue with negotiations, avoid war. - Sean McBride
Taxi -- again: which American, European, Iranian and Arab politicians do you support? Which of them are not "scumbags" and "snakes" in your opinion? - Sean McBride
Seems like a legimate question to me: what precisely is your political agenda? Which politicians and political parties do you support? I do recall you saying that you support Hezbollah and Hamas. Is that it? If you don't like this group, that fine -- move to another one or start your own. - Sean McBride
Taxi -- if you want to try to pursue a useful discussion about Ashton Carter, go ahead. - Sean McBride
Carter is not a realist. Carter is an 'hawk ideologue on nuclear weapons'. He advocates bombing Iran if Iran doesnt cave to US requirements. I don't believe you are understanding the little ditty your quoted from him on the difference between the Us and Israel bombing Iran---WHAT he is really saying is there little difference---that the US will be blamed anyway if Israel bombs... more... - American
American -- then you seem to be concluding that Barack Obama intends to go to war against Iran -- why else would he appoint Carter as SecDef if your interpretation is right? My gut instinct is that the Obama administration doesn't want to get involved in a shooting war with Iran. - Sean McBride
Obama has staked his political career and reputation on not getting sucked into another Iraq War -- or worse. Are you predicting that he will attack Iran during the last year or two of his presidency? - Sean McBride
Iranian PressTV, which is often prone to alarmism, so far seems calm regarding the likely appointment: [Obama will nominate Ashton Carter to lead Pentagon] - Sean McBride
The main issue: will Obama appoint Carter as part of a plan to go to war against Iran. I don't know yet. I doubt that's the plan, but who knows. We'll see soon enough. - Sean McBride
Obama imo is a incompetent leader. He takes stands and then lets himself be over ruled by his "advisors'----he is what he was--a 'community organizer,' listening to his community----and his community is his advisors---all of whom have agendas of either Isr-First or liberal wars intervention. He is man who has no confidence in his own judgement and in the judgements he does have any... more... - American
Obama withstood massive pressure to bomb Syria -- remember that critical weekend when he reversed course? That took some backbone. But the intensity of pressure coming from the Israel lobby to attack Iran may be impossible to oppose. So perhaps that is what a Carter appointment would be all about. Stay tuned for further developments. - Sean McBride
'' American -- then you seem to be concluding that Barack Obama intends to go to war against Iran -- why else would he appoint Carter as SecDef if your interpretation is right? ..Sean).....Wrong as usual. Where did I 'conclude' that Obama picked carter for war with Iran? I was pointing out what Carter was about---I made no conclusions about why Obama picked him. What I mainly conclude... more... - American
OK -- you are making sense. - Sean McBride
'' Obama withstood massive pressure to bomb Syria -- remember that critical weekend when he reversed course? .. - Sean McBride)...Something wrong with your brain or memory--Obama did not reverse course--the senate reversed course due to what they claimed was overwhelming public pressure coming down on them against bombing Syria by the public . Obama kept sending Kerry and sending Kerry... more... - American
There are many interpretations of that incident -- the reversal of the plan to bomb Syria: [Google; obama syria chemical weapons red line]. For instance; [How the Obama Administration Reversed Course on Syria Strikes] - Sean McBride
I do conclude that booting Hagel without already having a guaranteed replacement is another example Obama being --led by the nose by Nuland and his advisors. ,,,,,,the removal of Hagel before there was a replacement is very very very strange. - American
I think there is much to Taxi's analysis. I do believe the Russians put their foot down on Syria, with those missile detections as a shot across the bow. I recall well how many ships Russian moved into the eastern meditarranean. Ithey were on complete parity with NATO vessels and the dangers for anyone who cared to look were clear - an escalation that will get out of hand. Fact is... more... - Danaa
But here comes the new gambit from the exasperated neocon corner that got Crimea taken away -from them right under their eyes - it's called ISIS I believe. Someone, with saudi and Tiurkish help had financed, armed and pointed them in the direction of Iraq. They absolutely did not come out of nowhere. Whether they are manageable, is another question. One doubts it, seeing their hodge... more... - Danaa
I too agree with Taxi that Russia had much to do with it. And i also agree something desperate is up with the oilies undercutting gas prices---I think that is aimed at Russia and therefore Iran. Open the gates and flood the market and no one will worry as much about war disruptions in the ME. The oily royal potentates seem to be pulling out all the stops in going for Sunni dominance.... more... - American
Sean McBride
JewishVoiceForPeace: Omar Barghouti, in @NYTimes, refutes paper's claim that Israel is a democracy
Good for Omar. - Danaa
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
From legislation saying that Israel is the nation state of the Jews to bookburnings at a bilingual school to a racist song saying that Palestinians just want to kill Jews -- Israel's political culture seems to be cracking up. And no one at the top is trying to tamp down the demons
"Going"? At what point during a 70 year history of ethnic cleansing and genocide would this entity be considered sane? And why use a euphemism like "crazy". A simple declarative sentence of what Israel actually is and always has been would be much more effective and honest, imo. - weareone
I'm sorry, but imagine Germans asking this question about Germany if they had ethnically cleansed Jews for 70 years -Pssst! Is Germany going crazy?--how does that sound? Ludicrous. - weareone
Another idea for a headline: "So it's finally official - israelis really are nuts!". The reason for Phil's headline is clear - he finally got the idea that Israelis have barely bothered to hide all these years - they really are fascists at heart and always were. It's just that now, there are more American nutcase zionists out there who can actually speak English. So now that which was all too clear to hebrew speakers for decades is spilling into the English speaking world. - Danaa
Funny, Taxi and Danaa. Yes, the headline as well as elements of the article just seem intent on downplaying the situation-the use of the term "knuckleheads and crazies" as though we're talking about the three stooges rather than sociopaths. Danaa, what's your opinion --would you consider this a gatekeeping article or is that too harsh an assessment? - weareone
"gatekeepinglite"--thanks for the opinion-that was my impression, too. The hike and landscape sound lovely. :) - weareone
Wearone, it's kind of Gatekeepinglite, as Taxi just quipped so lovingly. But it's gatekeeping not so much for others as for himself. Phil, like most other finely-minted and well-minded jews of the great American jewish Intellectual tradition, cannot bring himself to stare at the abyss. He refers to knuckleheads, but implies that "oh, megod, that may be most of them!". But that he cannot... more... - Danaa
Why, you'll thought Phil's audience was the likes of us riff-raffs from all over the place? now, really..... - Danaa
The likes of Phil's more astute commenters make a rather good backdrop. No wonder the over-the-top riff-raffs and roufians of all sorts do not feel entirely welcome. I might bring myself to comment, though I hate the new interface (I believe, conspiracy theorist that I am, that the interface for comments was designed to keep me off the premises without telling me so. Clever, if true,... more... - Danaa
Thanks for the explanation of the nuances of how Jews feel they must communicate with each other Danaa, but if this is an example of a master class (walking on eggshells for fear of offending the tribe), I'm sorry to say that I think Jews will be left far behind the rest of humanity. The world is not going to handle them with kid gloves. - weareone
Obviously I agree with you guys (gals?) about that freaking walking on egg shells business. Being what i am, running instead of walking, them egg shells kept breaking for me, anyways. No patience for the delicate sensibilities of one little tribe. There are other tribes in the world who suffered so much more over the centuries, and managed to carry their pain with some serious dignity.... more... - Danaa
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
#JusticeForMikeBrown: NFL star Reggie Bush connects Ferguson to Palestine -
Detroit Lions running back Reggie Bush posted a photo of Palestinian photo-journalist Hamde Abu Rahma on his Instagram page 2 days ago. Abu Rahma's sign reading "The Palestinian people know what mean to be shot while unarmed because of your ethnicity #Ferguson #Justice." Predictably Abe Foxman issued a press release telling Bush he should "stick to football" among other things.
Most Americans strongly disapprove of strong arm robberies, the bullying and intimidation of store clerks, punching police officers, trying to wrestle guns from police officers, arson, looting, vandalism, incitement to "burn this motherfucker down" and "burn this bitch down" (Michael Brown's stepfather egging on the rioters in Ferguson), etc. Associating Michael Brown with righteous... more... - Sean McBride
Some progressives have rallied behind Michael Brown without doing much critical thinking. The minute that video of Brown physically bullying and intimidating a much smaller store clerk in the act of a strong arm robbery was released, Brown was politically damaged goods. That is the reality. One strongly doubts that serious Palestinian activists want to be linked in the public mind with... more... - Sean McBride
The results of the grand jury proceedings were the final nail in the coffin in terms of portraying Brown is an innocent and sweet boy who was murdered by an evil racist cop with no provocation. Darren Wilson in that George Stephanopoulos interview didn't come across as a racist thug -- quite the opposite. Brown, on the other hand, was unquestionably a thug -- the convenience store video made that clear. - Sean McBride
One needs to build political and social movements on strong foundations -- otherwise they collapse. - Sean McBride
Comparing the plight of Palestinians under Israeli occupation to the status of African-Americans in the United States is not persuasive. Can one picture a Palestinian ever becoming an Israeli prime minister, as Barack Obama has become an American president? It will never happen for fundamental structural reasons in Zionist ideology. - Sean McBride
There are major problems in American society with regard to how many police departments treat African-Americans, but the Michael Brown shooting is a poor case on which to address and remedy this issue. Not smart from the standpoint of effective practical politics. - Sean McBride
Sean, I think that you, like many (most?) whites do not understand what really happened in Ferguson. Just because media idiots populating CNN and MSNBC ran off frothing at the mouth, trying to create some kind of a mascot out of Michael Brown, does not mean that this is what the rage of Ferguson's residents was all about. It is hardly about whether brown was a great guy or not. It's... more... - Danaa
The anger of the black people has absolutely nothing to do with some silly tactics by so-called white, and wanna-be white "progressives". Most of whom are comfortable enough to where they can't even conceive of having to shoplift a few items here and there. The rage of the black people in the US, long suppressed and rarely addressed honestly, is the true face of America's "democracy".... more... - Danaa
The major problem in America is not with how police departments treat blacks. They treat them as the Roma are treated in Europe - as third class "untouchables". The problem is that there has been a class warfare going on for some time now that's unacknowledged. It is noticed only when there's a little unwelcome rioting. - Danaa
I suspect Sean that you don't really feel the rage of the downtrodden much. But it's there. It's what fueled the french revolution once. Just because the mandarins don't see it coming, doesn't mean it's not percolating under the surface. besides, just exactly what "tactics" should "progressives" use? what can possibly work other than serious income redistribution? you don't have a cure... more... - Danaa
As usual most people are missing the crux of the problem in the Mike Brown and 400 other similar cases in police killings in the US. It is NOT about whether the victim/suspect like Brown is entirely innocent or entirely guilty of some crime or not. It is the new US Police 'mentality' of *SHOOT TO KILL*---in all cases---not shoot to disable but shoot to kill upon the slightest... more... - American
Danaa -- radical wealth inequality is a huge global problem that cuts across all ethnic and racial groups -- but I doubt that arson, looting and vandalism of the kind we just saw in Ferguson is going to solve it. These rioters don't seem to be capable of leading a successful revolution against the oligarchs and plutocrats. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- Darren Wilson didn't shoot Michael Brown over shoplifting -- according to the grand jury he was acting in self-defense after being physically attacked by Brown. Most of us understand that if you punch a cop and try to wrestle his gun from him in a violent struggle, you stand an excellent chance of losing your life. What matters here are the facts of this specific case -- should Darren Wilson be charged with any kind of criminal act or not? The grand jury decided no. - Sean McBride
American -- do you think Darren Wilson should be charged with a crime? How would you have reacted under the same circumstances? Would you have had legitimate reasons to fear for your life? What about the strong arm robbery -- how would you react if you or a loved one were physically accosted, bullied and intimidated by a much larger person in the commission of a crime? Most people I know would not tolerate that behavior. - Sean McBride
I don't recall any incidents in which Palestinians in the occupied territories have destroyed their own property to protest Israeli human rights abuses -- have there in fact been any such incidents? Certainly whatever suffering blacks may be enduring in Ferguson can't come close to the violence that was dished out against Palestinians in Gaza this last summer. - Sean McBride
Should we make Michael Brown and the Ferguson rioters a symbol of heroic struggle against white oppressors that should be symbolically joined to the struggle of Palestinians against Israeli Jews? You might try asking Palestinians if they would be pleased by that kind of information campaign. - Sean McBride
I have had a loaded gun leveled on me---unlike you probably---by a enraged drunk who wandered up on our beach house porch one night looking for his girlfriend who he thought ran off from a beach cookout with some guy and demanded to look in my house for them. So I know exactly what it feels like. After I managed to disarm him I didnt kill him for daring to threaten me with a gun which I... more... - American
American -- are you even familiar with the facts of this case as presented in the grand jury proceedings? The claim is that Michael Brown, who was a very large and strong man, had Darren Wilson pinned down in his car and was wrestling for Wilson's gun. If Brown had acquired control of the gun, he may well have murdered Wilson with it -- Wilson understandably believed that he was... more... - Sean McBride
American -- I know of no one stupid enough or crazy enough in my circle of acquaintances to get into a violent confrontation with a cop -- and especially to go after his gun. There have been numerous cases like this in the past, and they almost always turn out very badly. And the law clearly recognizes the right of law enforcement to use lethal force in these instances -- where there is a clear threat to the life of the cop. - Sean McBride
Wilson shot Brown when Brown was still 35 feet away, to where Brown had run after escaping from the fight with Wilson. One may then question whether at that distance the unarmed Brown was a lethal threat. - WJones
Are people here taking the trouble to read grand jury report? :) According to some eyewitnesses, Brown was charging Wilson when the final shots were fired. This occurred after Brown had physically assaulted Wilson and tried to take his gun from him. Check out Wilson's demeanor in his TV interview. Check out Brown's menacing demeanor in that convenience store video, which was recorded minutes before Brown's violent encounter with Wilson. - Sean McBride
Any thoughts on this video? - Sean McBride
#Ferguson looters caught on camera trying to BURN DOWN convenience store, HEROIC patron puts it out - Sean McBride
Sean, and whose testimony did we have for the account of officer Wilson? just Wilson himself? you believe this account? does it seem even remotely credible? the grand jury was presented evidence by a prosecutor who DID NOT SEEK INDICTMENT unlike most other Grand jury cases. The evidence was provided by a prosecution team that looked for every possible way to avoid prosecution. It is... more... - Danaa
Micahel brown is a symbol for the extreme prejudice with which a disproportionately poor black community is treated in America. It is disgusting to all who follow the frequency with which black men are shot as compared to white men (guilty of the same behavior). That the black community is enraged is hardly surprising. that you justify the militarized police behavior towards America's... more... - Danaa
Sean, I'm glad to see you stand shoulder to shoulder with the 1%. Enjoy it while it lasts. - Danaa
I couldn't help notice that you were not asking or providing any condemnation of the lynching of the Palestinian bus driver (or, may be you believe the Israeli police cover-up? check out Silverstein for the facts on the case. It's in your feed). - Danaa
Danaa, Taxi, American, WJones-I agree with all of your points. Sean, you and I discussed this on another feed shortly after Michael Brown was murdered and your arguments echo some of the most reactionary elements in the world culture-the 1%, as Danaa states. First of all, when you ask why blacks destroy their own communities- to quoteTyler Reinhard, blacks "don’t own neighborhoods.... more... - weareone
But it's most important, imo, to consider the larger picture- what American questioned me about on another thread on immigration--why I was relating the universal perspective to an issue that would appear to be confined to the US. It's because it really is all connected--"Ferguson Riots, Immigration Reform Framing Coming Civil War Around Race, Diverting Anger Away from Government"--... more... - weareone
Quick reply: I don't support the militarization of the police, radical wealth inequality, oppression of minorities, etc. -- I speak out on those matters all the time. I do think that it was a mistake to try to turn the Michael Brown shooting into a major human rights cause -- the forensic evidence and eyewitness testimony support the claim that Brown did in fact physically assault... more... - Sean McBride
Remember this? [Henry Louis Gates arrest controversy] -- that also turned out to be lemon in terms of serving as an engine for driving human rights activism -- Obama ended up inviting the arresting cop, James Crowley, to the White House to share a beer. The narrative on Michael Brown has changed radically since the... more... - Sean McBride
Note carefully that the recent controversies about the latest explosion of arson, looting and vandalism in Ferguson haven't been about the heavy-handed militarization of the police -- they have been about the failure of the police to exercise sufficient force to quell the riots. Talk about a confused narrative! From the standpoint of businesses in Ferguson -- many of them minority-owned and employers of minority residents in the neighorhood -- the police failed to protect them. - Sean McBride
My prediction: since the human and political narrative on Michael Brown is so muddled, the story will quickly fade away. It will not serve as a rallying symbol in future years and decades. Watch and see. This wasn't a 1960s-style civil rights moment -- see [Selma to Montgomery marches] - Sean McBride
'' American -- are you even familiar with the facts of this case as presented in the grand jury proceedings? ..sean) ......Yes I read the document dump and saw the pictures. so here's my reply-----if you are so stupid you cant see the holes in the so called investigation that was presented to the grand jury that were big enough to drive a Mac diesel thru, then you are too dumb to be discussing this. - American
American -- if you have indeed absorbed the grand jury proceedings, you will understand why it is not likely that the American public is going to rally behind Michael Brown and keep this issue on the front burner. The story will quickly fade. Care to place a bet? - Sean McBride
By the way -- I developed this line of analysis on Mondoweiss -- that the Michael Brown case was too sketchy to use as a rallying point for human rights activism. Annie responded with the emotional charge that this line of thinking was "disgusting," but a majority of Mondoweiss commenters agreed with me. They know a problematic situation when they see it -- and don't try to shoehorn it into a crusading narrative. They are realists. - Sean McBride
Sean, you make the most trite, non pertinent statements-----we are not discussing whether '"American public is going to rally behind Michael Brown''. We are not discussing if this story will eventually fade as they all do. This Ferguson event is another 'clip' in the Big Picture.....and you never get the Big Picture. You never get the big picture because for whatever personal reason you... more... - American
American -- my approach to politics is simple -- pick winning cases, causes and themes -- play to win, not to vent. Politics is a craft. Inchoate rage, moral outrage and self-righteousness by themselves will get you nowhere in politics -- except quite likely on the losing side of history. - Sean McBride
No, Taxi, you pick the cases, causes and themes that best advance an agenda based on morality and principle. If you pick badly, you will tend to lose. Good intentions and high ideals are not enough to prevail in politics -- you need to execute successfully. - Sean McBride
A good example: you don't attack Zionism by using Adolf Hitler as an authority (which I have actually seen some "anti-Zionists" do). You don't support terrorist or violent acts which undermine public support for your cause. No-brainer stuff, really. With regard to police oppression of black communities, pick cases to focus on and publicize in which there is little ambiguity or confusion... more... - Sean McBride
In politics, all players have limited political capital to spend -- and they need to spend it wisely. You don't throw it away on sketchy lines of play. If you do, you will probably lose. - Sean McBride
Sean, no one has "limited political capital":. Divest yourself of this concept of limitation. It will paralyze you, if it hasn't already. This murder was not TURNED into a "major human rights cause" or used to advance an agenda. The reaction is a genuine outpouring of rage and frustration at a repressive, corrupt, evil system. It was predicted by and is being used to divide and divert... more... - weareone
weareone -- the first thing one needs to do with Michael Brown and Ferguson is to get all the facts sorted out about really happened -- an exercise which quite a few people, unfortunately, thought wasn't necessary. With regard to the CFR -- because I read their publications doesn't mean that I agree with the CFR agenda -- I read a great deal of material that I disagree with. For... more... - Sean McBride
Moving forward, the main factors driving radical wealth inequality will be artificial intelligence, robotics and automation -- and very few traditional political activists on the left seem to understand those issues, which cut across all ethnic, racial and religious divides. Fewer and fewer people are acquiring control over fewer and fewer tools that provide them with enormous leverage... more... - Sean McBride
Where the real action is these days regarding politics -- TED Talks. They are defining the field of play and the nature of the game. [TED: Ideas worth spreading] - Sean McBride
Social, cultural and political engineering -- using the latest scientific methods -- usually trumps making noise. That's how the real world works. - Sean McBride
Taxi -- with regard to the real world, how do you think financial and political power is being accumulated and concentrated these days? Where does it currently reside and how do you propose to challenge it effectively? - Sean McBride
To answer my own question: venture capital and high tech innovations are the foundation of contemporary political power -- that is where the action is. The leaders of this domain rule the roost and they are collecting most of the wealth. - Sean McBride
So you have a realistic plan for overthrowing Silicon Valley, Wall Street, the military-industrial complex and Hollywood? I would love to see it. Keep in mind that these people can see threats coming from many miles away -- and they know how to deal with them. - Sean McBride
Also keep in mind that most of the world -- especially Americans -- love their high tech gadgets -- they couldn't live without their smartphones and big screen TVs. They want to keep the flow of convenient new goodies coming. If you want to see emotional commitment and fanaticism, check out the mobs at Black Friday sales. - Sean McBride
Sean, to respond to your comment to me: Regarding "facts"-- Danaa, presented you with a different set of facts-so where is the truth to be found? The point, imo, is how this crime is being used----so let's examine the consequences---<<The ruling class has seized on the events in Ferguson as an opportunity to establish new precedents for repression in the United States. Indeed, the... more... - weareone
"venture capital and high tech innovations are the foundation of contemporary political power -- that is where the action is. The leaders of this domain rule the roost and they are collecting most of the wealth." - Sean McBride --can you even envision a world in which wealth does not determine power? Because, imo, that's the future if we are to survive and thrive (even though this idea may seem improbable, even absurd, given the current world environment). - weareone
No -- I can't envision a world in which wealth doesn't largely determine power. This has been the nature of human society from its origins to the present day. To change this state of affairs you will need to change fundamental human nature. What's your plan? Marxists and communists in the 20th century had a plan -- and it failed miserably. Look at contemporary Russia and China. - Sean McBride
weareone -- I posted a reference to an influential book on ethnic conflict that is an important part of the debate on that subject. With what specific analysis in that book do you disagree? - Sean McBride
Sean, I don't intend on reading the book, because, as I stated, I don't agree with the premise and would not trust any publication written by a member of CFR. - weareone
weareone -- I expend more effort on understanding points of view I disagree with than on points of view I agree with. The points of view I agree with I already fully understand. To engage in effective political debate against opponents, you need to understand their thinking better than they understand it themselves. For instance, all the most persuasive books and articles critiquing neoconservatism have been written by authors who have fully mastered the neocon canon -- they know it chapter and verse. - Sean McBride
Sean, I have no interest in engaging in political debate but am well aware of the world view of neocons/ CRF /neoliberals or whatever euphemism is chosen for parasite/predator--- we've all be inundated with it for decades, if not centuries- so I'm not interested in wasting time on reading books perpetuating lies- they're a dime a dozen. - weareone
Well, if you want to beat the neocons and the neolibs, you will have to best them in the public square and the marketplace of ideas. You have to engage with them and win. Otherwise they will roll right over you. There is no easy way around this. - Sean McBride
I don't agree. - weareone
Why. - Sean McBride
'' Well, if you want to beat the neocons and the neolibs, you will have to best them in the public square and the marketplace of ideas. You have to engage with them and win. Otherwise they will roll right over you. There is no easy way around this. - Sean McBride).....That is so funny!. You lose 9 out of every 10 of arguments here to the majority of us who disagree and you are giving us advice on how win? LOL. - American
Danaa -- from the standpoint of TPTB -- the billionaire class -- the Ferguson controversy is probably not registering as even a tiny blip -- it represents no threat to them -- they are going about their business globally as usual, accumulating massive wealth. Who has been hurt by the violent "demonstrations" are small business owners, many of them minority-owned, and their employees,... more... - Sean McBride
One key rule in advanced debating -- never declare yourself the winner -- for all the obvious reasons. And using LOL on a regular basis? Really? :) - Sean McBride
Because, they would like nothing more than to engage you in endless debate while stealing you blind. If the fundamental problem is a global financial oligarchy, then, as I've said before, imo, the solution must be financial empowerment, as in the creation of small and local economies-self-sufficiency--not endless debate. One step in the right direction is occurring today--"Ferguson protests focus on retailers for Black Friday" - weareone
But as I just pointed out to you, artificial intelligence, robotics, automation, cloud computing, etc. are leading to a world in which wealth and power will be maximally concentrated -- and many traditonal businesses -- especially small businesses -- will be consigned to oblivion. Things are trending this way as we speak. So then what? - Sean McBride
Regarding debate: players who control the public debate control public policy -- that's the way politics works and the way it has always worked. There is no way around it. The histories of the American, French and Russian Revolutions provide perfect examples of this state of affairs. One needs to wage successful warfare on the battlefield of ideas -- information wars. You don't play, you lose. - Sean McBride
'' So then what? - Sean McBride).....This is why I LOL at your blah blah.....don't they have world history books where you're from? You don't know whats next? - American
Sean, I don't buy your premise-"You don't play, you lose," - weareone
American -- so far you have given the impression that you would like to see a replay of the US Civil War -- in which the rural South challenged the industrial North for power -- and was soundly crushed by superior force. Doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me -- we know how those kinds of contests turn out. Learn from history. - Sean McBride
weareone -- how do you propose to affect the policies of the US government -- the executive branch, Congress and the Supreme Court -- if you don't succeed in selling your ideas in competition with other ideas? - Sean McBride
Oh my gosh, Sean. This has been discussed many times on this feed--by me and everyone else who comments regularly. I don't know if it's possible for you to grasp the concept that change will not come by "selling your ideas" or by "competition." As I've said before, it requires a diligent, informed electorate to vote out, after one term, the non-performers. - weareone
Voters are moved by ideas, arguments and information -- the domain of "information wars" and public debate. What could be more competitive than political elections? That is why so much money is spent on them -- to shape and control public opinion. - Sean McBride
Ah yes so Sean reverts to the "Southerner' accusation----and visions of Americans' being crushed' by the superior forces of money, power smart neos and smart Jews. How very zio of you. Tell me Sean why you are so jealous of Southerners? Do you resent Southerners and others actually having roots and history when all you have is a fake identity you borrowed from the real Irishman Sean... more... - American
American -- the historical reality is that the rural South was crushed by the industrial North for clearly understood reasons -- deal with it. I like many Southerners and many aspects of Southern culture -- but the South lost US Civil War on the basis of misguided thinking. Issuing threats against TPTB -- the current financial-military-industrial-intelligence-technocratic complex -- is... more... - Sean McBride
In any case, the South has been fully integrated into the military-industrial complex -- its economy depends on it. - Sean McBride
'' players who control the public debate control public policy -- that's the way politics works and the way it has always worked. There is no way around it. The histories of the American, French and Russian Revolutions provide perfect examples of this state of affairs...Sean).....LOL again . Your blah blah has convinced me that you are the 'sock puppet' you accuse others of being. Why?... more... - American
You keep giving yourself away Sean---now you want to make your argument "all about the South"---you're lurched from Ferguson to the Civil War because you think what you say will insult me as a Southerner--again you've got a pile of resentment and jealousy there. Why do Southerners and Christians threaten you? Why are you so afraid of us. You can blah blah all you want to try to disguise... more... - American
American -- let me know when you have calmed down and perhaps we can pursue the discussion in a reasonable way. There is certainly much to be said about the role of propaganda in the American, French and Russian Revolutions -- and much scholarly literature has been penned on the subject. Pamphlets during the American Revolutionary period were the equivalent of our contemporary Usenet... more... - Sean McBride
I am perfectly calm and enjoying your usual trying to weasel your way out of being called on your typical red herrings plucked out of the wild blue yonder because you cant respond to or answer other comments in a logical or coherent way...LOL. 'Discussing' with you is like trying to teach a child to tell time..we ask you what number the big hand is on and the child responds with 'i have a red crayon and green crayon' as an answer . - American
American -- now that you've got that bit of vague verbal abuse out of your system -- how do you envision overthrowing the Silicon Valley/Wall Street/military-industrial-intelligence/Hollywood complex with verbal threats, taking into account that many influential Americans have a major stake in the prosperity and success of those institutions? Do you have any details? Whenever I hear... more... - Sean McBride
# the power complex that you are up against includes: 1. 2. Apple 3. AT&T 4. Bank of America 5. Boeing 6. CIA 7. Citigroup 8. Comcast 9. DARPA 10. DHS 11. DIA 12. Exxon Mobil 13. Facebook 14. FBI 15. Federal Reserve 16. Goldman Sachs 17. Google 18. Harvard 19. IBM 20. IMF 21. Lockheed Martin 22. Microsoft 23. MIT 24. News Corp. 25. NSA 26. Oracle 27. Raytheon 28. US Congress... more... - Sean McBride
Best of luck on engineering a successful revolution. - Sean McBride
Wasn't Colin Wright the guy who was banned from Mondoweiss for his antisemitic rants? That is the only memory that name triggers. - Sean McBride
Taxi -- I would love to see links to comments in which I was "thrashed" -- the only commenter on Mondoweiss I ever felt strongly challenged by was Hostage -- in debates about Noam Chomsky and the role of Judaism in Zionism -- and he struck me as being slippery and evasive in those discussions. If Colin Wright were a bright light, he would have left a strong impression on my mind. - Sean McBride
Taxi -- ok -- I just consulted my archives -- Colin Wright was the guy who kept using the word HATE (literally that word) to describe his obsessive feelings towards Israelis and Jews. I challenged him about his language. Eventually Mondoweiss had enough of it -- he wasn't helping the critique of Israel and Zionism. He came across as a classical hardcore antisemite. I definitely wasn't "thrashed" by him :) -- in fact, he was taken to the woodshed. - Sean McBride
Hostage failed to convince me that Noam Chomsky hasn't often served as an apologist for the Israel lobby and that the Jewish religious establishment hasn't played a central role in propping up Zionism. He produced few documents to support his arguments with me, and I provided many to support my arguments. I think Hostage is dead wrong on those issues and I will happily and confidently debate him anywhere and anytime on those issues. - Sean McBride
I also think that Hostage has wasted his time and energy by posting torrents of valuable documents in the Mondoweiss comments section. He should have organized them into a browsable standalone wiki and website that could easily be accessed and searched by anyone in the world at anytime -- like Wikipedia -- an invaluable reference source on Israel and Zionism. Trying to retrieve useful items from the Mondoweiss archive is like pulling teeth. - Sean McBride
Regarding Colin Wright -- Mondoweiss pulled the plug on him -- apparently they tired of his literal hate speech -- he was fond of remarking how much he "hated" Israelis and Jews. If you disagreed with Mondoweiss's decision you should have tried to convince Phil and the gang to reinstate him. What debates do you think Wright ever won? Any links? - Sean McBride
I don't think I am superior to Hostage and I have often praised him highly -- I think he was the brightest mind ever to appear on Mondoweiss. I simply disagreed with him about Noam Chomsky and the role Judaism in Zionism. He didn't persuade me to his point of view. - Sean McBride
Taxi -- you and Colin Wright should get together and start a news and discussion group -- seriously. Give it a whirl. I remember now -- I was struck by Wright's rhetorical style and diction -- it reminds one of 19th century British imperialist writings. - Sean McBride
So: you agree with Hostage that Noam Chomsky is a reliable guide to the workings of the Israel lobby and that the Jewish religious establishment bears little or no responsibility for Zionism and the activities of the Israeli government? He won those two debates in your mind? Which arguments most convinced you? I found Hostage to be incredibly evasive -- even intellectually dishonest -- on those two issues. He didn't respond to the points that were brought to his attention -- he pretended not to hear. - Sean McBride
Sean, I very much appreciated your comments to Hostage and thought they were thoughtful and accurate. He seemed to be knowledgeable about international law, but his comments often included explosive, verbally abusive personal attacks in addition to the other qualities that you noted. I was once on the receiving end and was quite surprised by the level of vitriol. I remember one commenter asking him to respond to a question only if he could avoid being "nasty." - weareone
It may have been you, Taxi or maybe you weren't the only one. :) - weareone
I was lucky with Hostage, for some reason. He would often give me some [much needed] backing (cf. real life documents), and when I took him on for a few points he seemed to go out of his way to humor my argument, even when all I had on my side is some logic backed, alas, only by passion. A few times I alluded to something "Talmudic" (usually not knowing much about it, just snippets, barely remembered) and he, like Shmuel, would set me straight. I don't know why he treated me with kid's gloves. - Danaa
may be it was the tribal thingy, now that I think of it. It's a really weird thing this tribal stuff. It softens the edges, or something. I need to figure out whether it worked for me the same way at times. Is it possible that I lose my sting when dealing with them I know to be "insiders"? is it like a family thing where you oblige, if not forgive, your kid, your parent, your cousin,... more... - Danaa
You surely received the tribal "treatment," Danaa--sotto voce and civil. :) - weareone
weareone -- great comment about Hostage! -- you have been a smart observer of events on Mondoweiss -- you know how to parse words and people. Hostage's language was becoming increasingly acerbic, abusive and even nasty during the last few months in which he was posting -- he was on a short fuse -- I wondered if he was suffering from health problems and I was worried about him. And I... more... - Sean McBride
Taxi -- the main debate I conducted with Hostage was about Noam Chomsky and the role of Chomskyites -- like Hostage, Norman Finkelstein and others in that school -- in downplaying or airbrushing away completely the power of the Israeli and Jewish lobbies in American politics. Most people agreed with my position that something is seriously fishy with Chomsky's discourse on this subject,... more... - Sean McBride
The second major debate I conducted with Hostage, Shmuel, Mooser, Annie Robbins and others was about the role of Judaism and the Jewish religious establishment in forming, energizing and backing Zionist ideology and Israeli government policies. Mondoweiss went nuts over this topic -- I struck a very sore nerve -- and I didn't back down on my argument for an instant -- a point of view... more... - Sean McBride
Regarding Hostage and debating methods: Hostage taught me not to overload discussions with too much documentation. Find the strongest quotes and points and be brief and concise -- otherwise people stop reading your comments altogether -- they just skip over them -- tldr -- too long, didn't read. - Sean McBride
fwiw, Sean, even though we disagree on other issues, I think your strength is your discussions/debates on these issues: zionism, Chomsky and the gatekeepers, the lobbies. I thought you nailed it in these discussions with Hostage and everyone else. - weareone
Thanks -- that has been my main area of interest regarding the great Mideast debates -- and what got me into it was being savagely attacked by pro-Israel activists when I first started looking into these issues -- it got me well and truly motivated to bear down hard on the truth. - Sean McBride
Regarding the Ferguson controversy -- once again, I know I am taking a contrarian position that will rile up many people -- but I am betting that the story will play out along the themes I have outlined. It's already happening. I can usually ferret out early on shaky narratives that are doomed to collapse when they are subjected to skeptical pressure. I don't mind being politically... more... - Sean McBride
Such a long post, Sean! so un-Twitter-like....something(one) must have gotten to you to pry open the flood gates? - Danaa
I am with weareone on those epic debates. You were expected to "keep off the grass" and didn't. It is true that the one thing Jewish people - including many of the very best and most open-minded of them - can't deal with, it's when a non-Jewish person goes around poking in their skeleton closets. They may agree with every single point you make, but since you are out as non-Jewish, they... more... - Danaa
The book that needs to be written still has a name like "The Sins of the Jews". If it is written by a jewish person, it'll get the Atzmon treatment. If by a non-Jew it'll be denounced as an out and out anti-semitic screed and taken apart every which way to kingdom come. Gilad was taken to the shed basically for "giving comfort to the goys". He scratched the surface of the cauldron and made hey out of the percolating bubbles. Biblical like. - Danaa
Basically, the biggest sin is that they care about their "own" more than they care about the "others". To continue along the lines of the comments I made about max Blumenthal - even deep thinkers like Chomsky, and first rate speakers like Finkelstein are guilty of this sin - the one of Selective Caring. They pick and choose among the victims of the world's great calamities, Palestinians... more... - Danaa
Danaa, I was looking for you here. Order this book and read it and give us your opinion----The Jews (Classic Reprint) June 14, 2012 by Hilaire Belloc - American
Thanks American, I'll check it out, though not instantly (my long comments above are a testimony to the fact that I'm escaping the throes of a project sucking me under as we speak. alas, nothing fun like dancing with skeletons). I miss MRW BTW. He always kept me supplied with good references. - Danaa
Written in 1922 by Belloc, its evidently making a come back due to current events, I saw it mentioned by commenters on a couple of FP blogs. - American
Interesting summary at "Belloc contends that in Europe and the United States, Jews and Christians are locked in a vicious circle. Jewish elites of great ability move into a particular country where they are welcomed and prosper; masses of Jews follow and friction develops; tensions rise and Jews are expelled, or undergo persecution, or worse; the guilty nation repents,... more... - Sean McBride
More: "Belloc argues that the Jewish Diaspora in both Europe and the Islamic world creates friction which leads again and again to a backlash. His main idea is that the Jews are not a minority religion or order such as Quakers and Jesuits respectively, but that they are a separate nation with only some aspects of being a religion." - Sean McBride
I should received it in a few days. When I read the reviews I got a little chill because Belloc is describing the conclusion I think I have come to. That the Tribe is different and we should simply recognize that and deal with it as what it is. The reviews say it is not a defense of anti semitism but a pragmatic honest description of the 'interest conflicts' that always have been and... more... - American
'' His main idea is that the Jews are not a minority religion or order such as Quakers and Jesuits respectively, but that they are a separate nation with only some aspects of being a religion." - Sean McBride)..,.Which is what Zionist claim Jews are----and many Jews who base their Zionism on Judaism also claim they are both a religion and a people. - American
Exactly -- Zionists have openly embraced Belloc's characterization of Jews with force. - Sean McBride
I think we can show/prove historically that the majority of Tribe saw itself as a 'people' not just a religion from the beginning and it hasn't changed since. The problem of 'a solution' to the conflict the tribe causes within nations is that in a democracy there is no 'democratic solution' to it. In a non democratic form of government there likely would be. The only solution I can see... more... - American
You can download a Kindle version of Belloc's book for a mere 99 cents -- -- I'm reading it on my smartphone. - Sean McBride
I think Bello's point , like mine, is that 'they consider' themselves a people--'a nation of people'--a distinct' ethnic'---absurd and mythical as that may be---and that is how they operate where ever they live. So that is how others should view them and deal with their tribalism. Iow we cannot expect them to be or view them as 'one of us' because they aren't and don't want to be one of... more... - American
Mystical, messianic and militant Jewish ethnocentrism and ethnic nationalism pervade the Jewish tradition from ancient Judaism through contemporary Zionism. As long as that strain is there, "Israel" will be in sharp conflict with "the nations." Invariably, in the history of this long pattern of problematic cultural interactions, "the nations" begin looking out for their own interests.... more... - Sean McBride
Taxi, I don't think you are getting what I am really saying. I am not saying Jews should be regarded as special, I am not saying they are more or less human. I am saying we need, the world needs, to take them as 'what they are' and oppose their agenda's on that basis--as a group whose self interest conflicts with the majority because it is a 'extreme' self interest. The fact is if you... more... - American
Frankly however I do not think the world has the time to be converted to the reality of what the Jewish problem is or to accepting Belloc's advice on acknowledging publicly and therefore 'adopting politically' a response to the constant Jewish problem in order to end it. So probably the cycle will go on as it always has re the Jews. - American
There are many positive aspects to multiculturalism -- and I love cosmopolitan big cities -- but I think as a political movement and cultural trend it's facing a major collapse in Europe (definitely) and the United States (probably). Why? Traditional cultural groups in Europe and the United States feel that their standard of living and quality of life are going downhill, not improving. - Sean McBride
Taxi -- my impression is that Europe has been veering right on immigration issues in recent years. When I get time, I will pull together some of the leading data regarding polls and elections in Britain, Scotland, France, Sweden and other nations. Multiculturalism can work well in expanding economies -- in contracting economies tribalism and xenophobia tend to come to the fore. Man the barricades. Protect your diminishing wealth. - Sean McBride
Multiculturalism can work only if all parties agree to greatly dial down their level of ethnic and religious aggression and chauvinism -- all parties need to compromise and soften their edges. - Sean McBride
''Yeah I'm following you thru and thru, American - I just don't see ANY point in indulging the jews in their delusion....Taxi)...I don't think Belloc (and I'm definitely not) is recommending indulging the Jews in their delusions. I think he is saying 'expose and advertise' their 'deception'--their demand to have a say in the affairs of a nation while in reality any say they have as... more... - American
Also Taxi on multicuturalism-- its not if people like or not, most who believe in a democracy do. But its a mistake to not see the trend of ethnic conflict and blowbacks going on. The interest you name are most responsible for creating both the 'inequality of some ethnics and the 'favoritism toward some ethnics --when neither the inequality of some or the favoritism toward others can be... more... - American
American, re your point about effectively ostracizing Jews in the public sphere because of that "duality". Here is a problem I see: in America assimilation is well on its way. Personally I met quite a few jewish Americans who are actually quite oblivious to being Jewish in any way. These individuals would be rather surprised to hear they belong to a "nation within a nation". How many... more... - Danaa
Its not always economics that brings about conflict and blowback in multicutural populations, it is often about social 'values' connected to what people believe is their 'tradition'. I see that rising in my area in politics. - American
here, I'll share a personal detail with y'll: once I was married for a while to a very nice fellow (don't ask why I am no longer so. frankly I have no idea). After a bout a year I found out that he was actually jewish - that was quite a surprise, since I used to say things like - me no interested in jewish fellows - got more of a thing for Swedes. There was absolutely nothing jewish... more... - Danaa
These questions relating to the "tribal" in us do confound me, I must say. - Danaa
Taxi - oblivicents - that's a good one. I'll use in the future (with all due credit) if I may. The point remains. If bad things start happening to jewish people, it can sweep all, the good, the bad and the ugly. To worry about the oblivicents is only human. And American. - Danaa
It is hilarious Taxi, you are right. An aside: if i start confessing to being tormented by doubt about whether they liked me for me or for my "insider' status, I'll be instantly recognized as jewish and live to see idiots like hophmi treat me ever so gently. Now, there's a dilemma. But I do wonder about other tribes - whether they are like that too - with little codes sprinkled all... more... - Danaa
here's another interesting one for you, Taxi - there's much about you and your style that could be taken as jewish too. The humor, for one, The predilection for linguistic raggae (that's what comes to mind when I encounter your creative expressions. Something jirating to an invisible rythm), for another. The flashes of wit too. Let me put it this way, if I found out you were actually... more... - Danaa
Danaa, ...while we can recognize the difference between the some and all, as we often put it and all accept---when talking about the Jewish Problem as Belloc describes historically--accurately I think just on my observation---we have to talk about "how the herd moves and operates'. We all know what elements lead and how ' the herd is led'----despite that fact that many Jewish sheep... more... - American
I agree about israel. Not long ago I embarked on a little gendankenspiel - what if there was no Israel? at least not as an ethnic country. What would the path of American jewry look like? will ther ebe a kind of rapproachment with Christianity, spear-headed by the reform and constructionist movements? would jews melt into the American fabric, become a vital graft to it, as so many other... more... - Danaa
American, tell MRW to come on over and engage with us a bit. I promise to try and keep Sean in check (now, why would I make idle promises?) - Danaa
take your pick, taxi. Either way it's a compliment - the best of jewish is not always bad, just like the best of anything. - Danaa
MRW is upset with me because I think human-caused global warming is a serious problem -- possibly the most important threat facing humanity as a whole. We mostly agree on issues concerning Mideast politics. We also disagree about what I consider to be the raw (and sometimes rabid) antisemitism on GFTG. But he's welcome to post here. - Sean McBride
Atzmon criticizes Blumenthal for MW interview:
Isn't Atzmon missing part of the point of Blumenthal's talk which was about raising awareness of Palestinians? - WJones
Isn't Atzmon overly negative? - WJones
"The Jewish activist Max Blumenthal wrote an expansive book on Israeli racism, but he failed completely and categorically to grasp the culture that drives Jewish supremacy within the Jewish State, Jewish politics and beyond. Interestingly enough, Blumenthal has a lot to say about ‘German pathology,’ German people, the colour of German people’s skin and their ‘sickening society’." - Sean McBride
"If anyone still had hope that there was something positive that Progressive Jews could add to the discourse, Blumenthal’s latest interview will end that idea. He exhibits the ultimate form of Jewish racism, goy hatred: in fact, far more insidious than hard-core right wing Zionism." - Sean McBride
"As if being Germans is not bad enough, in the eyes of Blumenthal, the Germans are also guilty of being ‘White.” To the question “does that make Germany a Jewish friendly country?” Blumenthal answers, “Germany is the whitest country in the world. It’s so white that it doesn’t know that it’s white or what whiteness is.”" - Sean McBride
Gilad Atzmon always keeps it interesting. - Sean McBride
"This is probably the best summary of Jewish progressive nonsense. Jews are like everyone else, they are ordinary people and don’t you ever dare question their choseness. Don’t you ask what is unique about their lobby, don’t you ever look into the role of their elite and its domination in culture or banking etc.’ But then, if Jews are just so ordinary, how did they manage to mount the political pressure on the German political system that drove Blumenthal and David Sheen out of Germany?" - Sean McBride
"But I wonder, is Blumenthal anti racist? For an anti racist enthusiast his language is suffused with racial expressions and biological determinist ideas. Blumenthal refers to skin colour. He talks about the pathology of nations and peoples but at the same time he defies any attempt to criticise the ideology of his own ‘chosen’people." - Sean McBride
Does Max Blumenthal have the backbone to debate Gilad Atzmon on these issues? To defend himself? Probably not. - Sean McBride
Maybe Max does not want to take Atzmon seriously publicly, considering him a hot potato. I am not really interested in engaging GFTG publicly for a similar reason - I don't even want to be associated with their ideas even if to debate them. - WJones
I think if Max had to, he would debate Atzmon. Part of the problem for Max is that Atzmon is getting into a hot potato area. Max's rejection of Israeli militancy is enough of a hot issue, and getting into the issue with Atzmon of culture would probably be pretty uncomfortable. It would be for me I know to discuss Atzmon's topic publicly if it were me. The problem for Max is that Max... more... - WJones
Gilad Atzmon is a more careful thinker than the GFTG Judeophobes -- and he is a deeper thinker and better educated person than Max Blumenthal. He raises legitimate and substantive points that beg for reasonable answers. One doubts that Blumenthal would dare to go toe to toe with him in a fair and open debate. - Sean McBride
But I still appreciate Max Blumenthal's writings. - Sean McBride
Max could respond that he agrees about the Lobby and that it has too big a hold in his religious community, but that he disagrees with Max's portrayal of "Jewish-only cells", and Max could say that he finds this offensive. Then Atzmon could reply: "Look, they are making cells", and Max could reply that "They have a right too, and they aren't discriminatory". Then Atzmon or Max's... more... - WJones
I thought Atzmon was partly on to a good point, but that he way overblew it and was too negative about Max, and so I have a harder time demanding that Max debate him openly. I think Tony Greenstein, or maybe even Max, should openly debate Atzmon though since they occasionally trash each other. - WJones
How did Atzmon "overblow" it? There is a strong ethnocentric streak in Blumenthal's psyche -- combined with a harsh judgmental attitude towards some outside ethnic groups -- traits consistent with an indoctrination into a culture of "chosenness." In an open debate, Atzmon would be free to develop this argument and his insights at length -- and Blumenthal could explain himself. - Sean McBride
I think he overblew it because Blumenthal's essay was mostly positive, and geared toward Palestinian rights. Atzmon was partly right because Blumenthal claimed Germans basically learned nothing from the Holocaust. - WJones
Atzmon here is not concerned so much with the expression of politically correct views on Palestinian rights, but with the overall shape of Max Blumenthal's psyche and cultural agenda. He gets into deep questions that Blumenthal should introspect on. I think Atzmon is a more evolved human being than Blumenthal -- he has deconstructed much of the bullshit that was programmed into his head. Blumenthal is still partly underwater. - Sean McBride
What Atzmon sees very clearly, IMO< is something that many other progressives don't. he sees straight into the hollowness of the concept of "Jewish values". That is something that is important to max and to beinart and even to Silverstein. They all take huge isse with israel's misdeeds because they contrast and negate the laudable "Jewish values". Atzmon, as an israeli sees straight... more... - Danaa
I must say, that whole emphasis by Max on "white" vs "not white" stuck a somewhat false note with me. Fotr one thing it is hardly true that germans are all super-white. For another, I doubt max understands at all where younger germans are standing these days. many are bristling under their country's official positivist relationship with israel. Many are angry about never being able to... more... - Danaa
Max, even though he was called 'anti-semite' by some risible individuals in germany, will probably not hesitate calling Gilad an Anti-semite and did just so. Furthermore, max is wishy-washy about BDS - his stand on that issue actually is very telling. Surely one as smart as he and as knowledgeable as he is about the damaged Israeli psyche, will be able to see that only severe behavior... more... - Danaa
But Gilad knows why max can't go there. It's because deep deep down, Jews and jewish tradition (whatever it is) are still more important to max than humaness. He would never ever admit that and in fact I doubt he would be able to bring himself to see that aspect in himself. So you have a kind of alienation between self and the vision of self, and that makes it all a bit neurotic, and... more... - Danaa
I agree with Taxi--great insight, Danaa. You nailed it:--- "jewish tradition (whatever it is) are still more important to max than humaness. He would never ever admit that and in fact I doubt he would be able to bring himself to see that aspect in himself." - weareone
glad you liked..... - Danaa
In my estimation, both Gilad Atzmon and Danaa are more evolved minds than, say, Max Blumenthal -- bold independent minds who know how to engage in the rigorous deprogramming of their childhood indoctrination. Quite a few non-Jews have gone through the same difficult process with regard to the indoctrination in their respective traditions. If you are a truth-seeker, this is what you do. - Sean McBride
Sean, since you called me "evolved" I'll be waiting for the other shoe to fall. Trust me, I have great deficiencies in both character and inclination and have lived the life to prove it. You already know I prefer cats to humans, but that's the least of it, really. Besides, I wouldn't see what I see were I not guilty in some capacity or another of the same malaise I critique in others. Who was it that said "we are most critical of our own flaws reflected in others"? - Danaa
Danaa -- I am sure that your deficiencies and irregularities are more fascinating than most. :) Regarding: "we are most critical of our own flaws reflected in others" -- without a doubt. For instance, I became quite focused on worrying about messianism in human culture because -- well you can guess the rest. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Danaa -- why I like Twitter
It turns up valuable content in a swift and efficient way (in my opinion): - Sean McBride
Skipping over the lily pads or mountain peaks -- for fast brains. - Sean McBride
If you want to get into the in-depth exposition, follow the links. - Sean McBride
As I quickly browse the results of that Friendfeed search above, I see a flood of useful data. - Sean McBride
But you are interested in data and I want to channel only a few bits each day since my interest is in opinions and lengthy expository essays. That's what I do most - reading the essays. Which is why I was so happy that American unearthed that old 2008 essay by Weiss on Carter. That was a gem. Trouble is, when you forget what a good essay you read 5 years ago that you failed to save, Twitter is no help and google search takes you to too many blind alleys. - Danaa
Example: I am searching for an article that appeared on NYT (I think, unless it was WaPo) which was about how quickly people come to feel entitled after say, winning a lottery. the article recounted results of a study but I read the article at a time when I was busy with other things and don't have enough key words to conjure it up. I know it was sometime this year but that's about it. Now how do I go about searching for something when all I remember is something vague like this? - Danaa
Danaa -- Twitter provides one with quick and efficient pointers to the in-depth essays -- that is how I use it. It's a marvelous sifter. - Sean McBride
[Google; entitlement lotteries new york times] and [Google; entitlement lotteries washington post] don't work? - Sean McBride
Keep in mind that AI people are using the term "data" in an unconventional way -- they are referring to the underlying conceptual objects and structures -- the entities and relations -- that underlie *all* human communications and creations -- including mammoth texts (like, say, War and Peace, Great Expectations, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire or the complete... more... - Sean McBride
Google search didn't work. not enough search terms. - Danaa
If I was a real scholar I'd use Twitter to find the latest on the web. But for things I don't do for a lliving, time is of the essence and more than anything I hate to sift through chaffe to find a few nuggets. So, I'm content to do things haphazardly. - Danaa
Well, that is precisely the issue that services like Twitter, Zite, Prismatic, Netflix and and other smart recommender systems are working to address -- to automatically push the most important nuggets in any and every domain, from both a global standpoint and a personal standpoint, to the top of the queue. They work fairly well now and they are continuing to improve -- this... more... - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
"Mondoweiss has become a very stale site. Doesn't bother to update even when there is huge news. Need for a Commentary like rapid responder." — MJayRosenberg
Funny MJ. I thought he didn't like MW. - Danaa
Well, it's the comments he didn't like. Obviously he prefers a Twitter-like medium where news can be broadcast to the world with no danger of feed-back. But MW specializes indaily commentary not in the news cycle. May be MJ can roll up his sleeves and write something that's other than a one-liner? - Danaa
MJ doesn't seem to be able to handle engagement -- discussion and debate. He's more into hit and run. - Sean McBride
That's true Taxi. It's that special brand of Jew-on-Jew-Envy that keeps the world going around. It's a funny thing that - kind of like Caribean Ragae song-and-dance envy but on some imagined lofty intellectual sphere. You can see it in Slater and in the abuse heaped on Judt when he was alive. Must appear really weird to other humans on the planet. - Danaa
If you're into preaching and lecturing, engagement -- the process of explaining and defending your ideas -- is unbearable. Engagement and dialectic is all that counts, in my book. I always want to see how arguments play out when they are tested. - Sean McBride
I rarely take it personally when challenged (or even attacked) by Jewish adversaries -- it's mild compared to what they can dish out to fellow Jews. :) Since I am rather an argumentative person myself, I am comfortable with the hard-edged argumentative strain in Jewish culture. That's how things get sorted out. - Sean McBride
But I have rarely seen MJ get involved in meaningful arguments. - Sean McBride
A titanic arguer and debater: Hostage -- there is so much to learn from his debates. - Sean McBride
If you can't effectively defend your positions, ideas and beliefs from the strongest possible challenges, you're not really in the game. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Did Wondering delete his own comments?
I didn't delete them. He's free to post here as long as he stays on a somewhat reasonable track. - Sean McBride
A nice thing about Friendfeed -- you can edit or delete your own comments whenever you like -- no time limits. You control your own material. You don't hand over control to another party. - Sean McBride
If Wondering is as bad a person as you say he is, then let him establish a digital record here that will prove your point and which can be archived. - Sean McBride
can someone cue me in on what he siad? I am always up for entertainment.... - Danaa
you make way too many assumptions. There's a screw loose somewhere. Maybe it's the diet? - pepsi
Taxi -- I assumed that Wondering was pepsi from the very start -- he has played this game before -- pretending to be tokyobk. I wanted to give him enough space to reveal himself -- that is why I let him keep posting. It looks like he pulled his own account when he realized that he wasn't clever enough to hide his identity. - Sean McBride
You and others have noticed that pepsi is capable of writing only few snarky sentences at a time -- he lacks the chops to do extended expository prose -- one of the reasons he resents and hates Phil Weiss -- envy. - Sean McBride
Pepsi appears to be locked in a titanic struggle with his inner Frankist demons. :) - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Three Americans Among Four Rabbis 'Slaughtered' in Jerusalem Synagogue - NBC -
"Two Palestinians stormed a Jerusalem synagogue, opening fire and using knives and axes to attack Jews praying inside, officials said Tuesday. Four rabbis were killed — including three dual U.S.-Israeli nationals — along with an Israeli policeman, and five other people wounded. The attackers were later killed in a shootout with police. "Everybody was praying peacefully without any disruptions whatsoever and then all of a sudden the terrorists go into a place of worship and peace and turn it into a killing nightmare," Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld told BBC Radio 4." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Israeli police told NBC News that three of the dead were dual U.S.-Israeli citizens. Britain's Foreign Office confirmed the death of a dual U.K.-Israeli national. Police said the slain included Rabbi Moshe Twersky, the son of Boston-born Isadore Twersky who founded Harvard University's Center for Jewish Studies. Rabbi Cary Levine, Rabbi Avraham Goldberg and Rabbi Aryeh Kopinsky were also killed, according to an announcement made by the synagogue." - Sean McBride
The political reverberations from this event are going to be huge. - Sean McBride
There are currently over 1172 comments at the New York Times on this incident: This time the Readers' Picks are going overwhelmingly against Palestinians in support of Israel. Nothing could have been more predictable. Most New York Times readers are responding with horror and revulsion to this attack -- with no equivocations or qualifications. - Sean McBride
The Jerusalem Post: Condemnations of synagogue attack pour in, even from Bahrain and Turkey - Sean McBride
Why, if bahrain which brutally suppressed its own minorities is so eager to condemn something, it makes me wonder where they see the advantage in that. They are probably buddies with the mad israelites. - Danaa
Those Americans who died were black hats. namely they were not really Americans in the sense that they could care didly-squat about the Americvan constitution, laws, customs or people. Theirs is one of the most selfish, xenophobic religions you can find anywhere in the world. The only thing separating them from ISIS is they don't do beheadings. Though in time, who knows? their shchita... more... - Danaa
taxi, is that true about bahrain rulers? do you have any material to support them being descendants of jewish converts? - Danaa
Time for Sean to be honest about what he is...... political-research] Jimmy Carter and the Jews--Demme's Documentary Sean McBride Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:01:39 -0800
Why do you want to lie and misrepresent yourself. If you want to have discussions of I/P and Israel why don't you admit you are Jewish and be honest about it with us. What do you think you have to gain by pretending not to be Jewish? You think you will be taken as 'unbiased' if you pose as non Jewish? Well that hasnt worked has it? - American
'' Sent to you by Sean McBride via Google Reader: Jimmy Carter and the Jews--Demme's Documentary via Mondoweiss by Philip Weiss on 11/16/08 A friend gave me the documentary, Man From Plains, about Jimmy Carter's 2006 book tour for Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. It came out a year ago. My wife and I watched it the other night. I would urge the good curators at Yivo to buy the film, for... more... - American
What's your point? It's a repost of a Mondoweiss article by Philip Weiss -- a FYI: I didn't express any opinions about the article -- just took note. Were you really unable to parse the metadata for that post? You think I wrote it? Funny. - Sean McBride
American -- when you falsely accuse people who disagree with you about Mideast politics of being Jewish, you sound completely crazy. You really need to stop doing that and start engaging in intellectually honest arguments. For instance, you might address the role of the incredibly powerful American military-industrial complex in promoting pro-Israel policies. But your mind shuts down when topics like that come up -- it doesn't fit into your purely Judeophobic narrative. - Sean McBride
Be honest about yourself. Everyone here has been open and up front about themselves...done everything but put out their actual phone numbers and address. You on the other hand refuse to say even what part of the country you are from, what you do for a living, where you went to school although you claim it was a ivy league. You demand others reveal everything about themselves and 'prove'... more... - American
American -- I strongly respect the right of Internet commenters on Mideast politics, including you, to protect their personal privacy. Questions about one's general ethnic, religious and cultural biases seem fair enough, however -- although no one is obligated to answer those questions. - Sean McBride
American -- did you assume, on no basis whatever, that I wrote the above Philip Weiss article? And then assume on that false belief that I am Jewish? An apology is in order -- you need to read more carefully before jumping the gun. I have been completely honest about my religious and ethnic background -- again, Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Anglo-American, Irish-American,... more... - Sean McBride
No I did not assume you wrote it, I assume you passed it on to the mail group because you agreed with it.....You are not going to get any apologies from me buddy. what you will get is a large dose of your own medicine. You either make apologies to all of us you have insulted and misrepresented or else....and you know exactly what I am talking about, so do it...apologize . - American
American -- you should know by now that I often pass along articles that I don't agree with -- they are useful as starting points for discussions, for acquiring insights into the opposition, etc. I do it all the time. Why in the world did you connect this Weiss article with the false accusation that I am Jewish? Which I am not remotely? It's because you find it impossible to believe... more... - Sean McBride
Ok -- I just reread this Weiss article on Jimmy Carter -- classic Weiss -- a wonderful article (written six years ago, in November 2008). I agree with it (and I am not Jewish). One notices that American received several critical responses in the comments after he posted an extremely long comment. I agree with his critique of liberal Zionism in his comments. I have absolutely no idea why... more... - Sean McBride
American, thanks for this reminder about the documentary. I remembered it vaguely but did not have the time to go search for it. It's really useful for what I am writing. The chapter about how I came to America and discovered there is something mysterious bandied about called "Jewish values". Took me some decades (till my political awakening period) to realize those values are mostly... more... - Danaa
Sorry for the OT, but the jewish reaction to Carter was indeed a flash point for me, my road to Damascus moment. Such a deeply decent human being, whatever one thinks of his presidency (which proved that decency is NOT enough of an advantage for a high office where dirty politics is what it's all about). The Jews (and I say deliberately "The Jews" because it was almost the full jewish... more... - Danaa
'' That such a "goy" would lay claim to decency and directness. The gall of that guy! ad to call things by their name, without a shred of pilpul! really, who the heck does he think he is? - Danaa)......:):):) Exactly! And exactly what we (and the world) need more of....plain talk and calling things exactly whatever they are. Not more seans, Slaters, and pilpul and hasbara and jingos and spin. - American
I said apologize Sean and you havent apologized to me or taxi or danaa for your deliberate lies and twisting of what we didnt even say. - American
American -- when I expressed strong opposition to the terrorist attack on the synagogue that was reported today, I was amazed to receive a barrage of excited critical comments from you, Taxi and Danaa. We all clearly have strong views on the subject of attacking civilians in houses of worship, and I doubt that further discussion will budge us from our firmly held positions. We should... more... - Sean McBride
What is so special about a "House of worship"? what's different between that and a house where a person lives and storm troopers enter willy-nilly, destroy and kill because they feel like it? why, did you stand up daily, Sean condemning all such acts? I realize it's a full-time job but hey, condemnation is as condemnation goes. At least richard Silverstein does do just that nearly... more... - Danaa
BTW, I condemn palestinians for being meat eaters, just as I condemn israelis, jews and everyone else. There now - consistency! go PETA! - Danaa
Danaa -- what is so special about a "house of worship": people are very emotional about their religious issues, houses of worship should be places of peace and sanctuary, and when you attack a house of worship you are attacking an entire religion and everyone who believes in it -- inciting a bloody holy war that could go on for years, decades, centuries or even millennia. It's a very big deal. - Sean McBride
Worship-shmorship is what I say. A bunch of meat eaters where the meat comes from animals slaughtered with the utmost cruelty (yes, that's kosher for you). Why do we allow Americans to go and "worship" with the cultists anyways? Isn't it the same as those going to fight for ISIS? - Danaa
Also Sean, I do happen to think Judaism, as a religion kind of sucks. But then religion is not my cup of tea. It is based on the mostr genocidal book ever written , as you yourself said. What kind of a religion is this and why should I respect the balck hat nutcases with their 10 zillion children, all brought up to be zealots? Joking aside, it is high time to take the religion of... more... - Danaa
taxi is right. macrobiotic - that's the way. I plan to reform some day. - Danaa
Oh taxi, that's rough. You know there's a reason we get a little sick as we grow old. If we didn't suffer some degradation of the flesh we'd never go along with dying in the first place. I am trying to imagine a crowd of taxi-like macros in their 110th year raiding the hospitals and the nursing homes, laying waste to the country-side, absolutely refusing to die no matter what. Ouch! - Danaa
hey Taxi, perhaps when the time comes you could join with some brave Hezbollah fighters to raid the zio-state! even if you are 80 I am sure they would have a role for you, and perhaps you can take some zios with you to the other place. At least it'll be a warrior's death, even if not so pretty. On your gravestone (sorry for being morbid) it'll say - "Here lies the brave macro-Taxi, Not... more... - Danaa
So in my religion, if the "players" like your program because it's a kick, they might just bring it back, though no telling in what version or gender. That's my kind of resurrection as I keep telling WJones. - Danaa
The Cave of the Patriarchs massacre
Was a shooting attack carried out by American-born Israeli Baruch Goldstein, a member of the far-right Israeli Kach movement, who opened fire on unarmed Palestinian Muslims praying inside the Ibrahimi Mosque (or Mosque of Abraham) at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, West Bank. It took place on February 25, 1994, - American
The attack left 29 male worshippers dead and 125 wounded. The attack only ended after Goldstein was overcome and beaten to death by survivors. - American
Sean wants our reaction to the killing of 4 Israelis. - American
Here's mine---Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword. - American
I strongly condemned the Goldstein attack -- and have written at length about it -- including about reports of Jewish extremists who worship at Goldstein's grave. Israel suffered a major political blow because of that attack -- just as Palestinians are now suffering a major political blow over the synagogue attack. - Sean McBride
In israel this massacre by Goldstein is extohled by many to this day. especially the kind of black hats who "prayed" in that synagog to their god (which is really a modern day version of Beel Zvuv). In many ultra-orthodox communities and among too many israelis to count, not to mention quite a few American jews, Goldstein is a hero. They rever him for his act of ridding the world of a... more... - Danaa
But not to worry - despited my fierce opinions, I'm sure there'll be the likes of pepsi whill call me a gatekeeper, because that's their MO. hey American, tell us something about what the GFTG crowd is saying, eh? they went all secret private now. - Danaa
Danaa,,,,You are blocked from GFTG? I didnt know that, I knew Taxi was on the outs with them because of the JTFP fight but I thought I saw you comment there. Actually GFTG has gotten more a lot more sophisticated lately and pepsi is doing an excellent job of running a good steady stream of straight news reports on other issues; economics, politics, sports and world hot spots as well the... more... - American
American, I am not shut out actually but I simply did not register, though yes, I did comment a few times. The feed being private means that only registered users can see it. Pepsi did at times put up interesting, general purpose articles and I am always on the look-out for references. may be I will register though I can't promise to comment much. Having way too much fun arguing with... more... - Danaa
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
‘Zionism’ is now a dirty word for American opinion elite, Frank Luntz concedes -
41 percent of the American opinion elite look on Zionism as an unfavorable term, compared to just 29 percent of that group who regard it favorably, Israel-lovin pollster Frank Luntz concedes in leaked PowerPoint
"Zionism" is acquiring the same unpleasant vibe as "Bolshevism," "Communism," "Nazism," etc. -- Zionists themselves are feeling increasingly uncomfortable in being associated with the word. Once a word drifts into this linguistic and cultural territory it's almost impossible to reclaim. - Sean McBride
Political labels acquire the baggage of the deeds committed by the followers of the political movements they describe. - Sean McBride
Some of the by now entrenched associations: apartheid, biblical cultism, collective punishment, crazy-eyed settlers, ethnic extremism, house demolitions, olive tree uprootings, racism, religious extremism, spitting, violence committed against civilians, etc. - Sean McBride
Zionists killed the Zionist brand. - Sean McBride
My personal labels---- Petty, ugly, vile, filthy, evil, dirty, repugnant, repulsive, reprehenisble, pond scum, gutter rats, reptilian, nasty, obscene, comtemptible, debased, depraved, despicable, foul, worthless, abhorrent, spiteful, vicious, heinous , abominable, slimy, loathsome, malign, amoral, revolting, hideous, grotesque, malevolent, hatful,worthless, garbage - American
I would definitely not characterize Israelis collectively or individually with those terms -- most Israelis are human beings, no better or worse than human beings everywhere. But one could use negative terms (not this batch) to describe aspects of contemporary Zionist culture. Raw verbal abuse that is intended to dehumanize and demonize entire human groups doesn't really get us anywhere in solving difficult political problems and conflicts. - Sean McBride
This is what I would say: contemporary Zionist culture (both Jewish and Christian) is suffused and pervaded by racism and religious extremism. Not all Israelis and supporters of Israel are racists or religious extremists. Certainly not all pro-Israel activists are Jews -- in fact, most of them are non-Jews. Antisemites and Judeophobes are unable to make these distinctions -- they have suffered a mental meltdown on a fundamental level. They are beyond the reach of rational argument. - Sean McBride
'' Raw verbal abuse that is intended to dehumanize and demonize entire human groups doesn't really get us anywhere in solving difficult political problems and conflicts. - Sean McBride_.....I beg to differ. A 'group of humans' who dont object to their army regularly spraying skunk juice on Palestine childrens schools and homes should be demonized---and will be. - American
'' in fact, most of them are non-Jews. ''...Hasbara. Most are indeed Jews although to be fair many anti Israel protestors having the most impact are also Jews....but not Israelis. - American
NOT hasbara -- for instance, most pro-Israel activists in the US Congress are non-Jews. - Sean McBride
What *is* true is that the most influential financiers of the Israel lobby are Jews -- Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban are two good examples. - Sean McBride
Should we dehumanize and demonize all the citizens of all nations that are engaged in major human rights abuses? That would comprise a long list of peoples -- extending well beyond Israelis. - Sean McBride
Think of how you and others here reacted to Berthe's abuse of African-Americans and blacks collectively -- you knew in your gut that it was wrong. Think of the anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia expressed by many pro-Israel activists. - Sean McBride
I don't react to Jews collectively, I react to Zionist collectively....there is a difference. As far as I am concerned they should be as demonized as pedophiles. 'Oh I love Israel so I have to support it'' about as good an excuse to me as a child rapist saying he does it cause he loves children. - American
Most pro Israel activist in congress are bought lobby that isnt a good example. - American
So you are saying that non-Jewish Americans in the US Congress are whores and scoundrels, without backbone and character -- that doesn't say much for non-Jewish Americans in American politics, does it? Don't they possess enough money collectively to pursue the American interest? Too lazy? Too stupid? What? Do Jews possess the magical power to fog and control their minds? To force them to bow and scrape and rant on behalf of the Israeli government? - Sean McBride
Members of GFTG use the terms "the Zionists" and "the Jews" interchangeably -- their meaning and intentions couldn't be more clear. - Sean McBride
Your Jewish supremism is showing again Sean. And yea I am saying that non jewish americans in congress are treasonous, immoral fact I say that all the time. I am not obsessed with making non Jews out to be better than Jews ---but you are completely obsessed with trying to make Jews superior to non Jews....what causes that? day you must explain it to us. You are... more... - American
You, not me, are promoting a vision of Jewish supremacism -- you are claiming that Jews (who number around 2% of the American population) are somehow responsible for the bad behavior of non-Jews in the US Congress -- that small minority is supposedly so powerful, so politically skillful, that it can bend non-Jews in the Congress to its will. I am egalitarian in these matters -- I think... more... - Sean McBride
Now you are doing pilpul as well...chasing your tail. - American
'' Zionism" is acquiring the same unpleasant vibe as "Bolshevism," "Communism," "Nazism," etc. -- Zionists themselves are feeling increasingly uncomfortable in being associated with the word. '???????........Acquiring unpleasant vibes ???? ROTFLMAO - American
It is neither hasbara nor pilpul to point out that you keep claiming that hundreds of prominent non-Jewish Zionists in American politics are not responsible for their own beliefs and actions. Your assumption is that Jews possess magical super powers that enable them to bend helpless and hapless goyim to their will. Supposedly John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Ted Cruz and other non-Jewish Zionists will be able to get off the hook with the excuse that the Jews made them do it. That strikes me as bunkum. - Sean McBride
No I am not the one that claims non Jews are not responsible for their actions----I claim they are bought political whores fully responsible for their treason. You are the one who claims mystical and brilliant powers for the Jewish tribe who runs circles around the dumb goys. What I claim about Jews in general is they are a sheep like herd culture who keeps going over the cliff by... more... - American
Here is what you have said about me----->''American comes across as chauvinistic and xenophobic about Southern culture -- and intensely hostile towards all Jews and towards anyone who shows the slightest positive feelings towards any Jew -- the very definition of an antisemite and Judeophobe. He is afraid to get into a head-to-head discussion about these issues -- where is that famous... more... - American
American -- do you support or condemn the recent Palestinian terrorist attack on the Israeli synagogue? It reminded me somewhat of Frazier Glenn Miller, Jr.'s terrorist attack at the Jewish Community Center -- except the Palestinians actually hit their target. [Wikipedia; Frazier Glenn Miller, Jr.] I condemn the attack unreservedly... more... - Sean McBride
Come on pull up that thread and all my remarks that prove what you said about me. Lets see your evidence. Cause it whats its really going to show is your Jewish supremism, your hatred and bigotry toward the south and southerners, you're equating all of them to racist, your ignorance about the "Confederacy", about 'real' history, your ridiculous claim that slavery was inspired by... more... - American
Sean, asking people whether they condemn or supports acts of Palestinians, such as a hamas rocket or an attack on extremist temples/synagogs is pointless and disingenuous. 500 palestinian children were murdered in gaza by violent thugs, known as the IDF, a modern day equivalent of the Franco or the Pinochet regimes. The vast majority of israelis would be very happy to see every... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- I have repeatedly and forcefully condemned Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians -- have you really failed to notice? I strongly oppose terrorism all across the board, with no exceptions. - Sean McBride
many times I described israelis as members of a violent cult and you agreed Sean. You agree tIsrael is an ethnocentric, xenophobic, supremacist state. MOST citizens support that posture and MOST want MORE gaza killings not less. Why are you defending an evil cult? sure they are normal people. So were most Nazis - perfectly normal at home and to their neighbors. - Danaa
Danaa -- I am not defending Israel. My argument is that acts like this terrorist attack on an Israeli synagogue are not only wrong morally and ethically, but guaranteed to provide Israel with even greater political leverage against the Palestinians. Anyone who is defending this attack is doing the Palestinians no favors. - Sean McBride
I am not saying you defend Israeli's murderous actions. But at what point would you say enough if they killed your own? Do you want to sound like jen Psaki who "strongly disapproves" ciclian killings ion all sides? and are israeli rabbis - those guardians and promoters of the worst excesses of Israel - are they civilians or extremists? asking for support or condemnation in israel is... more... - Danaa
Most of us would rather see far fewer Jews in israel because to be a jew in Israel is to be a brute and a thug. There is no way out. Yes, exception is granted to those meager 10 or 100 thousand decent souls in Israel, who don't number much more than 1%. - Danaa
Sean, do you condemn the Gaza slaughter? Do you condemn the Jewish and Zionist Lobby that has worked to pervert US policy on Palestine. Do you condemn the racism of Israel? Do you condemn the Isr gov policy of allowing their IDF to shoot children and anyone else for the fun of it. Do you condemn the US gov support of israel. Do you condemn the Isr and zionist belief and 'demand' that... more... - American
Why were you not asking for condemnation on civilian killings of children in Israel? and are rabbis really civilians? did you look into what kind of synagog it was and whatkind of preachings were going there? - Danaa
Also, let me ask you this - do you Sean support the complete and total shunning of Israel, any product that comes from there and any individual who lives there? I do. That is the ONE AND ONLY way to put a break on the national psychosis that took over that murderous little country that's sucking the blood out of the American political system (and I don't mind if the imagery is repu;sive. What israel does every day, kicking America and the whole world in the teeth is repulsive). - Danaa
American and Danaa -- I have posted thousands of comments on Mondoweiss and here that have strongly condemned Israeli human rights violations against Palestinians -- but there is no way that I am going to express support for this terrorist attack on a synagogue. Is that the position of American, Danaa and Taxi here -- that you support the attack? - Sean McBride
If someone took away from you Sean everything you hold dear would you be going around asking for "polite condemnations"? would a tsek-tsek do? You have no right to ask for condemning the people who are condemned by Israeli brutality (which nearly ALL Israelis support) to the horrors of life under perpetual occupation. You should really look sometime into the actions of the vaunted French resistance for historical precendents on what people will do to oppose occupation. - Danaa
Danaa -- again, I have repeatedly argued that the West should keep ratcheting up political and financial pressure on Israel until it changes its behavior towards the Palestinians and accepts a fair and just solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. That is the only strategy that has the slightest chance of working. - Sean McBride
Nobody says you support Israel. But I am taking a serious issue with you asking people to "condemn" ANY act of resistance by palestinians. It is simply not for you to promote a high and mighty view whereby ALL "civilian" deaths are "Unfortunate". I repeat - what is an israeli civilian? a soldier who committed heinous crimes against humanity, say in Gaza, and goes home to his loving family at night. Is he a civilian? - Danaa
Danaa -- the main issue here is *PRACTICAL POLITICS* -- how does one achieve one's political goal? The application of physical violence against Israeli civilians and synagogues will only further tighten Israel's grip on the occupied territories (and Greater Israel) -- and undermine support for Palestinians among the American and European political mainstream. - Sean McBride
It's not about ratcheting up - it's about COMPLETE shunning of anything from and by Israel and complete withdrawal of any support from jewish people who support the murderous behavior by that thuggish entity. One must demonstrate that israel, and ALL the jews who support their heinous crimes against humanity, are not fit to be welcome in the company of other humans. I am not asking for BDS as much as for complete and total shunning. An expulsion from the ranks of humans. What else would you like to know? - Danaa
'' I strongly oppose terrorism all across the board, with no exceptions. - Sean McBride'')....Obviously you do not oppose terrorism. What the Zio orgs do in the US is a form political terrorism --that has killed 1000's of Palestines and done untold damage to others interest-----AND yet you always present this terrorism as ' brilliant, as outsmarting lazy dumb goys, as a 'success' of the... more... - American
It is very PRACTICAL for each of us to refuse to keep company with anything from or by Israel or from or by any jewish individual who expresses support of the killers actions AND attitudes. When israel withdraws from the west bank and agrees to pay restitution of 100's of Biliions of $'s to the 48 refugees then we can start talking. I won't even speak hebrew to any Israeli or shake... more... - Danaa
What is terrorism, Sean? again what was preached in that synagog exactly/ did you look into that? - Danaa
American -- you have misread me every step of the way. I have simply pointed out that the Israel lobby has outplayed and dominated the opposition in American politics since the 1940s to the present day. I keep asking -- how can one practically and effectively change this dynamic? Verbal abuse, trash talk and angry posturing are not going to do the job. The lobby will continue to roll... more... - Sean McBride
Terrorism is physical violence committed against civilians and non-combatants in political conflicts -- it's really quite simple. - Sean McBride
Taxi -- do you support committing terrorist acts against pro-Israel and Zionist synagogues in the United States and Europe? Would you characterize that activity as legitimate resistance and self-defense? - Sean McBride
No I haven't misread you. I have nailed you and you wont admit it and come clean about yourself and your real motivations for even being in the Israel-I/P- USA issue. - American
Terrorism is also incitement and the calling for physical and cultural violence against a people. That's what's done in lots of israeli institutes including the cult collectives known as "synagogs". Some of those synagogs are cesspools of hatred and putrid bigotry. What they preach is terrorism. So if you can't arrest them all what do you do? why is ISIS bombed and not israel? can you tell us that, Sean? - Danaa
American -- how can you "nail" anyone when you are unable to engage with the substance of points and arguments? To my main point -- that the Israel lobby has consistently rolled over and dominated the opposition in American politics -- you have no reply and no practical solution. Do you really think that venting angry words against "the Zionists" (or "the Jews") will have the slightest impact on the situation? - Sean McBride
'' Taxi -- do you support committing terrorist acts against pro-Israel and Zionist synagogues in the United States and Europe? Would you characterize that activity as legitimate resistance and self-defense? - Sean McBride)......Why do you ask these stupid questions? - American
If any acts are committed against the murderous thugs who sit and play nice in israeli embassies while the palestinians burn, it is not for the rest of us to condemn or praise. IF a chain saww wielding serial killer is killed while sipping coffee pretending to be a "civilian" and if he resists arrest, would you call in the swat team or not? - Danaa
Danaa -- what synagogues around the world do you think should be legitimate targets of physical attack? - Sean McBride
I support American and Taxis's questions - who and what are we to ask for "condemnations" of anyone who hits at a criminal, brutal state? I can ask you Sean, what would you have supported that the Alegrien libration movement did against the French? you do know that no occupier, ever, left any place anytime, because someone asked them nicely to do so. - Danaa
One could easily get the impression that several people here support committing terrorist violence against synagogues -- is this in fact the case? - Sean McBride
I could care less about any synagog anywhere if they support murder. same with churches - if they call for murder and mayhem by supporting a torrid little place like Israel, I don't care what the heck they do in their little synagogs. You are asking questions of me but not answering mine. So, again, if you were Algerina back in the 50's what would you have done to help free Algeria? well, the resistance brought the war to France, didn't they? and it worked, didn't it? when nothing else did. - Danaa
Sean none of us here on this board cares a hoot about your requests for "condemnations". Also you did not answer me about what was preached in the sult's synagog that was attacked? may be they were the sweetest little synagog ever, in which case, I would say it's unfortunate they got caught on the front line. BTW< are you or are you not condemning the kiev nazi Junta of what they have... more... - Danaa
Danaa wrote: "I could care less about any synagog anywhere if they support murder." I hear you loud and clear. - Sean McBride
Sean, all of us commenting on this blog are against the cult of death known as israel, AND all their supporters. You won't get anything else out of us. If you want to take the view that some israelis are nice and therefore all should be spared, that's like playing god who urged Abraham to find 10 just people in Sodom. Playing god, is not something the rest of us care to do. We are with... more... - Danaa
Do you Sean support a synagog that preaches murder? or terrorism by Israeli storm troopers (misleadingly named I"D"F)? if you do, then you are with them who are murderers. Why do those synagogs even have licences/ why aren't they treated like the KKK? you tell me that, Sean, what's the difference between Addelson and a KKK member? if a gathering of KKK types was bombed by some black... more... - Danaa
FYI< Sean I don't track with any synagog or church or mosque. But I do care what they preach in those places of religion to young people - Danaa
The key question for me is this: does one condemn or support terrorist attacks on civilians at synagogues, churches and mosques in political conflicts. This is a no-brainer for me, as it is for most Americans and Europeans. If you want to support such attacks, that is your choice. But I can guarantee you that they will backfire and play right into the hands of Likud Zionists, Greater... more... - Sean McBride
More questions to Sean, do you condemn the rocket firings by Hamas? if Hezbollah was attacked and countered by raining rockets on israeli population centers, would you condemn them? I am just saying that this business of asking for "condemnations" is silly. It's a game for kindergartners at the state department, cf. "we condemn all loss of life" (ie, we care a bit more about the cult members life than their victims, but hey who's quibbling as long as we get our "condemnation"). - Danaa
Asking for condemnations of terrorist attacks directed specifically at civilians in synagogues, churches and mosques is "silly"? Really? We will have to disagree. - Sean McBride
'' Do you really think that venting angry words against "the Zionists" (or "the Jews") will have the slightest impact on the situation? - Sean McBride).....Yes indeed I do. Stay tuned. I am going to tell you this eternal and universal fact one more time-----'traitor' trumps 'anti semite' every day of the week in every country in the universe.....the last time I called a politician a... more... - American
Sean, again, you can have any opinion you want about the I/P conflict and what is and isn't practical. What you can't do is ask for this or that individual to condemn anything done by people who are brutally oppressed because personally you know nothing about and have not experienced oppression. If and when you do, we can talk. I listen to those who suffer not to those oceans and... more... - Danaa
American -- that you would accuse a fourth-generation American of not being American -- and someone who largely agrees with you on Israel, Zionism and the Israel lobby -- speaks to how ineffective you will be in building an effective political alliance to counter AIPAC and its friends. Despite all your angry words over the last decade, the Israel lobby is more powerful in American politics than ever -- and you don't seem to understand why this is the case. - Sean McBride
You are just like so called liberal zionist ,Jerry Slater Sean ..just like him in your convoluted pilpul on Jews, Israel, US politics and etc.. - American
Actually, American, I strongly criticized Jerry Slater on Mondoweiss and bested him in argument (from my perspective). And I led the charge in deconstructing and ridiculing liberal Zionism. But I strongly oppose terrorist attacks on civilians in houses of worship. You, Taxi and Danaa support such attacks -- and duly noted. The three of you are going to find yourself in a very tiny and... more... - Sean McBride
Oh I fully understand the case Sean..its political money and corruption. And i fully understand your case want all of us to think you are smart and others are dumb and unrealistic. That most here arent buying your bs should tell you exactly how smart you are. - American
American -- I am smart enough to make accurate political predictions on a regular basis. I am making a political prediction right now -- Palestinians are going to pay a heavy political price in the West for this latest attack. From the standpoint of political chess, it's a no-brainer. Watch closely and see how many influential Americans and Europeans fall behind *your* position on this issue -- you are going to be more marginalized than ever. You simply don't know how to play the game. - Sean McBride are so stupid danaa and me support terrorist attacks and are going to be in your 'marginalized minorities' again and damage the Palestine - American
Sean, you are twisting everything. Neither me notr taxi nor America said they supported attacks on synagogs one way or another. We are all, I believe, just saying that it is not for us to condemn what extremely oppressed and persecuted people do over there. And it is also not for you to ask for condemnations. Whether such attacks are good or bad tactics for palestinians to use, that's... more... - Danaa
American -- Martin Dempsey, the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, recently came out in strong support of Operation Protective Edge -- was that all about political money and corruption? How precisely? I recall, by the way, that Pat Lang on Sic Semper Tyrannis was rather a Dempsey fan. - Sean McBride
Dempsey is a totally corrupt individual. yes, money and power corrupt everythiing and everyone. What he said about operation "Hard Rock" (which israel sold to the world as protective Edge) was idiotic. he should have been fired pronto. If he wasn't then yes, money corrupts everything and he was influenced by the fifth column that's doing quite well in the US> - Danaa
Has Dempsey taken money from the Israel lobby? What are the facts? - Sean McBride
Pat lang is no longer a Dempsey fan. People change. Dempsey may have once been upstanding but if he supports heinous atrocities committed by a cult of madmen and mad women then he is a goner. How was he brought to his knees is the only valid question here. - Danaa
Do you have any links to Lang's anti-Dempsey comments? I'd love to read them, but don't have time to browse his site. - Sean McBride
You have no clue how the Lobby operates. They have surrounded Obama, you know. and they are making inroads through the military officer ranks. Demsey is a man with a career to protect. Threaten that career and it's likely no money needs to change hands. happened to many. I urge you to look at one of your lsist to find the names. To me, it's not the ones we know that's an issue. It's the ones we don't know about. Dempsey did what he had to do to keep his position, that's all. - Danaa
I have no links to lang since I am not a daily or even weekly reader there. Sometimes it's not by pronouncements that one recognizes a position change but by silence. For lang to come outright against Dempsey would be foolhardy. But he can stop praising him, can't he? - Danaa
Danaa -- I think one has a moral responsibility to condemn all terrorist attacks on civilians in houses of worship without hesitation or qualification. Being evasive about whether such attacks are right or wrong will be interpreted as support for such attacks in many quarters. It's a losing political position in Western politics. - Sean McBride
It is not for me to condemn what palestinian do and neither it is for you. It's the height of arrogance to say otherwise. You can go ahead and condemn whatever you want, just don't ask the rest of us. - Danaa
Danna -- I do in fact have a plan to help the Palestinians -- try to influence American and European political elites to apply effective pressure on Israel to stop violating Palestinian human rights and agree to a just solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It's the only plan that has a slim chance of working -- and it doesn't include terrorist attacks on synagogues. Obama and... more... - Sean McBride
BTW, I condemn meat eaters everywhere all the time. Just so you know. They eat the flesh or real living and breathing creatures just because they feel like it. So, does my condemnation change anything for anyone? also I support Peta. Does that make me an extremist? - Danaa
'' American -- I am smart enough to make accurate political predictions on a regular basis'....Sean).....Oh really? Give us one. And not what some political whore for the zio lobby is gonna say about Palestine aqttacks ----thats not a political prediction. ..thats sop for lobby whores. My prediction is that the Palestine revenge attacks will increase the calls by the EU and others for there to be a settlement of I/P - American
Quick Sean whose your got 3 seconds to answer. - American
Your 3 seconds are up. - American
American -- I challenge you over the coming days to find a single American politician or pundit (mainstream or alternative media) who expresses support for the terrorist attack on the synagogue. And this has nothing to do with Zionism -- these kinds of attacks provoke revulsion all across the political spectrum. - Sean McBride
Here is Rand Paul weighing in: - Sean McBride
Senator Rand Paul: Prayers sent to ppl of Israel. This horrific & violent act should be universally condemned. I vow to #StandWithIsrael - Sean McBride
I challenge you to make one comment that isnt twisted and unrelated to what taxi,danaa or I have said. And seriously how STUPID STUPID STUPID is this question......" to find a single American politician or pundit (mainstream or alternative media) who expresses support for the terrorist attack on the synagogue''''..Can you get any more STUPID STUPID STUPID than to suggest anyone is going to make a statement supporting it? - American
Twitter, per usual, is a reliable guide to how opinion is trending on particular issues among thought leaders: I haven't seen a single tweet yet trying to defend or justify the attack. Zip. - Sean McBride
'' the Israel lobby is more powerful in American politics than ever -- and you don't seem to understand why this is the case. - Sean McBride)......Why dont you explain to us why this the case Sean....come on we wanna hear your explanation. - American
American -- I've provided you with the explanation many times -- but your mind is closed and you don't want to listen. Many non-Jewish Americans support Israel and Zionism for a wide variety of reasons -- ideological, religious, cultural, financial, etc. The military-industrial complex is an especially powerful player in this game -- it has profited to the tune of hundreds of billions... more... - Sean McBride
American -- classical Western imperialist interests (*not* Jewish) have used Zionism as a convenient cover for running roughshod over the Middle East. Jewish Zionists have done all the heavy lifting for them in terms of churning out endless streams of self-justifying propaganda for their policies. It's a sweet deal especially from the standpoint of the military-industrial complex. These factors may be in play with regard to Martin Dempsey, who sits near the top of that particular power elite. - Sean McBride
Taxi -- if political pressure from the West won't rein in Israel (and that is a likely scenario), then I fear that Palestinians are facing a future that will be even more horrifing than their past. They can engage in military resistance, but I doubt that it will work. The track record since the 1940s suggests that it won't. But I don't think we should give up in firing up political pressure on Israel in the United States and Europe -- it *might* work. - Sean McBride
American -- make that supports, provides apologetics for, hems and haws about, equivocates about, etc. the attack on the synagogue -- I haven't seen any of that among the usual thought leaders among critics of Israel. Maybe you will turn up something. Be sure to post it if you do. - Sean McBride
I seem to recall the FBI trying really hard to reason with David Koresh and followers. Now, why, oh why did the whole place have to go up in flames? is there some truth to the assertion that reasoning with cult followers and leaders is like reasoning with the insane who claims to be napoleon? now what is practical? I believe the FBI thought they were being quite practical when they laid... more... - Danaa
If palestinians end up driven out and herded into bantustans like Gaza, there to slowly suffocate as the people in Gaza do, then perhaps, perhaps some reaction can be expected. be it upon upon houses of cult worship (cf. synagogs) or houses of education (cf. preaching) or any other place where jewish people and friends run about frolicking while others are burning. I am sure that when... more... - Danaa
For your own sake, Sean you need to take a stand on which side you are. I know you understand Big Data but I don't think you (or I, for that matter) are experts at tactics available to those who are too weak to defend themselves. - Danaa
What taxi said above about the global jewish collective - hear, hear. - Danaa
My thoughts on "the global Jewish collective": don't try to harangue and bully Jews into a corner but give them every conceivable opportunity to revise their views and to modify the policies of the collective. Try to create openings and situations for positive change. Any anti-Israel and anti-Zionist rhetoric that has the look and feel of classical antisemitism and Judeophobia will just... more... - Sean McBride
'' Sean, if the global jewish collective was innocent and not going to hell and high water to support the war crimes of the racist state of israel, then I would find any attacks against them unacceptable. But the fact is that the jewish collective are in total, whole-hearted alignment with israel's ethnic cleansing, incremental genocide and infanticide. So it doesn't bother me to hear... more... - American
American Department of State Public Notice
Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor Request for Proposals: Combatting Anti-Semitism in Europe The Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor (DRL) announces a Request for Proposals (RFP) from organizations interested in submitting proposals for projects that will combat anti-Semitism in Europe. - American
Combatting Anti-Semitism: approximately $330,000, pending availability of funding: Combatting Anti-Semitism: approximately $330,000, pending availability of funding: - American
Constantly shuffling our tax money to the Jews...and they wonder why there is anti semitism. - American
How much of our tax money goes to non-Jewish defense contractors, white Christians (many of them in red states), African-Americans, Hispanics, etc.? $330,000 is a drop in the bucket. Many special interest groups and lobbies are the recipients and beneficiaries of "our tax money." We have spent hundreds of billions of dollars on military ventures alone during recent years. - Sean McBride
Regarding the hyping of "Combatting Anti-Semitism" campaigns: they are largely designed to divert attention away from the problems that Israel and Zionism are creating for Jews all around the world -- not just in Europe. Imagine how much damage Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban by themselves have done to the public image of Jews and the Jewish lobby. - Sean McBride
Since Jews have survived for several millennia, and are more successful now than ever before, it is unlikely that they are going fade from the pages of history in the near future or ever. The future of the Jews is not dependent on the future of Israel or Zionism. - Sean McBride
'' The future of the Jews is not dependent on the future of Israel or Zionism. - Sean McBride).....Their futures are now entertwined.......'' Imagine how much damage Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban by themselves have done to the public image of Jews and the Jewish lobby. - Sean McBride)......The Jews let the Adelson's and Saban's do it because the Jews benefit from the zionist entitlement. - American
Find for us Sean an example of a grant given to study the phenomenon of school shootings in the US that killed more children in the last decade than Jews have been from anti semitism. - American
If Israel and Zionism fail, Jews will simply rebuild around a new ideology and strategy. Jewish civilization is highly flexible and resilient -- capable of bouncing back from major failures -- even catastrophic failures. - Sean McBride
Pay attention....the US is going 'red', 38 of 51 states are now controlled by conservative legislatures and governors. In the next presidential election they will take the WH. This is a reaction to the 'extreme' liberalism of the Dems who have cultivated a government and culture of victims and minority entitlements and bashing of white America and traditional values.. What does this... more... - American
American, unfortunately the conservatives can be "played" by Jewish establishment just as much as the liberals have been. May be more so because of the religious base, where a great deal of naivite and gullibility strengthens the hands of the "great jewish myth makers". I know there's another side to conservatives, one represented by libertarians but they are not very prominent on the... more... - Danaa
That is exactly what they will do.....but their fringes,especially their 'religious' will never hold. The right is very much more fractured than the liberal left. Both parties know they are 'played' by the Jewish establishment but the difference is the right wing likes to employ and show off their power, they are a lot less inclined 'to be used' and more inclined to be the 'user'. They... more... - American
It's the election of Obama I told friends that he would either 'be the revolution' people were waiting for.......or set the stage for a giant red land political revolution----I think that's whats going to happen. The Dems have blown it. And their push to legalize all the immigrants is going to kill them in most states---the liberals have gotten too liberal for the moderate 45% of the country. Its going to be a wild time. - American
I agree with you about the immigrants issue, American. I believe the democrats are way out to lunch on this issue when it comes to reading the voters true sentiments. Note that oregon, that most liberal of liberal states just passed a measure by a 2;1 majority denying illegal immigrants the right to a drivers' licence. That when the legislature approved it decisively., and the opponents... more... - Danaa
If Obama goes ahead with the "amnesty" unilaterally, I believe that would practically hand over the next presidential election to republicans (as long as they manage to come up with a half-way decent candidate). - Danaa
One gets the impression that Americans overall are not in the mood to welcome a large influx of illegal immigrants from mostly a single ethnic group -- Obama and the Democrats will probably pay a significant political price for aggressively pushing a policy that no other nation in the world would endorse for itself. There is nothing especially "progressive" about such a policy -- or even rational. - Sean McBride
I am not against immigration but I am against 'iIllegal immigration . And its not a matter of racism as the Dems try to demonize its opponents , its a matter of economics---you cant keep exporting jobs and importing workers. - American
According to the 2012 Census 35.4 percent of all American were receiving welfare payments . That's 109 million people out of 309 million people in the United States. and that does not count unemployment benefits. We have spent 20 trillion since Johnson declared 'war on poverty'---it hasnt worked. Its gotten worse. I don't know what the GOP plan to address this is but the Dem program has... more... - American
Once all the illegal immigrants are legalized they will have to pay taxes and into SS and etc----but many will also qualify for various forms of welfare assistance for the 'working poor'...part timers and low wage workers. If I am not mistaken the income thresh hold for a family with 4 children to qualify for government SSI food cards is $40,000 . You could describe the entire US economic agenda as a Ponzi Scheme. The money is moved upward and downward and the middle is left holding the bag. - American
American, the presence of large numbers of immigrants in the US is largely because we --(Washington)--in addition to the IMF and World Bank have destroyed the economies of their native countries. <<First, businesses in the US needed low wage labor… Second the so-called Free Trade Agreement made it impossible for many small farmers in Mexico to survive. Third, the US wars and... more... - weareone
'' So when we stop invading other countries, their citizens will no longer have to flee here in an attempt to survive which is a cruel and strange paradox--)...Global capitalist in the form of the US preying on lesser countries might be part of the problem but its not the entire problem re immigrants. Mexico for example is totally corrupt all on its own by its own government. - American
American, as you say, I'm sure it's not the entire problem, but my sense is that immigration is the tip of a much larger iceberg --a consequence, not a cause in itself. Mexico, like many governments worldwide may be corrupt, but does not appear to be acting alone. Much has been written on this, but just an example: <<Since 2011 the US has not only continued “losing” its war on drugs... more... - weareone
The immigrant issue can be used, like all others, as another tool to distract and divide us--ie. blue vs red, American vs Mexican and other immigrants, Democrat vs Republican--or we can finally recognize that we all have a common problem and it's not each other. There is enough in the world for everyone- the problem is the hoarding of the earth's bounty by 1% or less of the population. Maybe we should focus our collective energies on them....just a thought. - weareone
weareone -- are you arguing that the United States should permit open and unlimited immigration from Latin America and everywhere else in the world? I can't think of any other nation in the world that practices such a policy -- for reasons of clear self-interest. In an ideal world, national borders would disappear -- but I don't think we are quite there yet. - Sean McBride are going to the 'universal' on the migration and immigration problems. I was talking strictly about the US immigration problem and the domestic economic implications. The UN identifies the cause of mass migrations and immigrations to be 1) poverty, 2)wars and 3) government repression/persecution of different groups. So 'ideally' without those things migrations would be... more... - American
Sean and American, no I 'm not arguing that the US should permit "unlimited immigration." I'm simply suggesting that the problem is much more complex than is usually presented in the media. These other contributing factors are rarely discussed, at least in my experience, and if a reasonable and fair solution is to be achieved, they will need to be considered, imo. - weareone
'' In an ideal world, national borders would disappear -- but I don't think we are quite there yet. - Sean McBride).....I disagree. If you want to see real world wide chaos do away with sovereign nations. What authority and or world body do you envision upholding your 'rights' or trying to maintain order in boarderless world?....the UN? would be standing in a long- long- long line to have your grievance heard. - American
I also don't believe the solution lies in removing national borders, but in respect for each nation's sovereignty. - weareone
What are the primary factors driving national identity? A question worth pondering. - Sean McBride
Its different for different countries. For Israel's its victim hood and choseniness in both the religious and people hood sense for both the religious and secular fractions. For most normal countries like for instance new Zealand its mostly just national identity period.....not one religious or ethnic identity. - American
Ethnicity -- including the expression and protection of ethnic cultures -- seems to be the primary driver of national identity in most nations. - Sean McBride
# a few examples 1. China 2. Egypt 3. France 4. Germany 5. Greece 6. Ireland 7. Japan 8. Mexico 9. Norway 10. Spain 11. Sweden 12. Switzerland 13. Thailand 14. Turkey 15. Vietnam - Sean McBride
Many (most?) national conflicts are ethnic conflicts -- conflicts over ethnic cultures, values, interests, etc. - Sean McBride
# what comprises an ethnic culture? -- a few components 1. architecture 2. business practices 3. cinema 4. clothing 5. cuisine 6. customs 7. education 8. language 9. law 10. literature 11. manners 12. music 13. political values 14. religion 15. sanitation 16. science and technology 17. work habits - Sean McBride
Nations have repeatedly gone to war against one another over these ethnic cultural issues. - Sean McBride
When you visit the capital cities of these nations, you know you are in the midst of distinct ethnic cultures. - Sean McBride
Sean, yes, I view cultural diversity as a gift, making the world more interesting but I think cultural issues are used as an excuse for war ( Arab vs Israeli) rather than being the underlying cause. It seems to me that the causes are usually related to greed, selfishness and coveting of land and resources. If I could go back to your comment about borders disappearing. I should have said... more... - weareone
I think the emotional attachment of many people to their respective ethnic cultures plays a significant role in national and group conflicts -- never underestimate the role of non-rational factors in human behavior. People feel a strong instinctive need to protect whatever they prize as their quality of life. And of course feelings of ethnic self-interest are fully compatible with the... more... - Sean McBride
It is true that transnational interests and players can manipulate these ethnic and cultural conflicts for personal gain -- but these conflicts have a powerful proactive life of their own -- that is why they are so easy to exploit. It often takes very little to ignite them and to fan the flames. - Sean McBride
Well, I'm not convinced of that. Minus the manipulation, the enmity may not exit. As more people are becoming aware of the manipulation (ie. 9/11) it may not be as easy to instigate wars. - weareone
[Wikipedia; Ethnic conflict] "Examples of ethnic wars since the 1990s were typically caused by secessionist movements leading to the breakup of multi-ethnic states along ethnic lines: the Yugoslav Wars, the First Chechen War, the Nagorno-Karabakh War, the Rwandan Civil War, and War in Darfur among others." - Sean McBride
It would be interesting to create a timeline of ethnic conflicts and wars for the last several thousand years up until the year 2014. I am not convinced that they are going to go away any time soon. - Sean McBride
Well I agree with both of wao said greed--even when its based on a ethnic group,as in they band together to plunder some other group or fight some group that is plundering them ---is most often the factor. I also agree with Sean that other ethic wars comes from the ethnic group's megalomania--as in zionism---megalominics greed factor is their belief that because of their superiority all riches to should flow to them. - American
You need to remember however that all the world's major wars have been over territory or a nation to nation power dispute. - American
If you want a world without war then you should realize my Almighty Swat Team is only solution----because you are always going to have a certain number of bad people and psychopaths in leadership positions of nations and groups who are willing to kill millions of people to achieve their agendas. - American
Sean McBride
W.Jones -- on Rosemary Radford Ruether
One of the best Christian critiques of Zionism I have read is [book; Rosemary Radford Ruether, Herman J. Ruether; The Wrath of Jonah: The Crisis of Religious Nationalism in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict; Fortress Press; 2002]. (It was originally published in 1989.) - Sean McBride
Have you read it? What are your best recommendations in this literature (Christian critiques of Zionism)? - Sean McBride
"In this well-written, powerful sequel to Faith and Fratricide, the Ruethers (she is author of Women-Church; he is acting director of the Palestinian Human Rights Campaign) argue that Israel and the U.S., not the Palestinians, are the chief obstacles to peace in the Middle East. The authors believe that the PLO's implicit recognition of Israel's right to exist "needs to be accepted and... more... - Sean McBride
Sean, I am Orthodox so I recommend The Nation of Israel in Prophecy: This was written by a leading theologian of the Antiochian Church to which Mideast Christians belong. Kairos USA was good except for its section denouncing "Replacement Theology". I recommend you look up the section in the "Orthodox Wikipedia" on that topic. - W.Jones
Sean, You asked me to look at THE WRATH OF JONAH. On page 24 she says the Old Testament has been superseded. That is correct. Otherwise we would still demand animal sacrifices and other rituals of Leviticus not to mention the concept of ritual cleanliness. Unfortunately what some authors have noted (See the PCUSA Book Steadfast Hope). Thus Ruether's book "Faith and Fratricide: The... more... - W.Jones
Christ at the Checkpoint's talk by Isaac Munther was fine. Stephen Sizer is a good writer about this. This is a good debate he engaged in where his Calvinist Christian Zionist opponent admitted that the New Testament superseded the Old one: - W.Jones
W.Jones -- thanks for your thoughtful pointers. I know Sizer's work -- it's solid. I'll get around to watching the video later this weekend. - Sean McBride
When you say you are Orthodox, which branch? - Sean McBride
Regarding supersessionism -- all ideologies and belief systems, religious and secular, evolve, change and revise themselves over time -- this is a natural and good thing. We are continuously learning more about the world and acquiring new insights. Judaism itself has evolved over centuries -- discarded some old ideas and adopted some new ideas. The main point is that we need to treat... more... - Sean McBride
Rather than "replace" one ideology with another, it might be more productive, whenever possible, to draw upon whatever elements in most ideologies are most beneficial for us all. - Sean McBride
Sean, Regarding Replacement, this is partly a semantic issue. If I were to follow your advice and draw on those good elements and then make a new ideology from them I could be considered to have "replaced" my previous belief in an ideology with the new one that I have just created as you instructed. - W.Jones
True enough --- but one could leave the previous ideologies intact, free to develop along their own paths for whoever chooses to believe in them. - Sean McBride
Sean, if you do that, then the later version of the ideology "replaces" the earlier version. It really can be that simple. it is not antisemitic as its critics label it. it just means that Christianity develops some things, bases itself on Judaism, but does not demand every thing like some rituals. That is what the traditional view about the two testaments is. What they will do, Sean,... more... - W.Jones
My bottom line on this: all branches of Judaism, Christianity and Islam should be allowed to develop along their own paths -- as long as no group violates the human and civil rights of any of the others. Any group is free to "replace" the beliefs of any other group -- to develop new interpretations of established doctrine -- or to develop entirely new doctrines. Let the free marketplace of ideas sort it out all out. - Sean McBride
I would not care much abotu the replace/ no replace debate about Christianity. Except that it is being abused: the claim is that early Christians believe in replacement and this means they are racist so therefore we must reject early Christian thinking about this. Obviously that is a problematic way of thinking and is its own kinds of "replacement" in fact. - W.Jones
That line of thinking would basically eradicate Christianity at its roots -- no wonder most Christians are not sympathetic to it. :) - Sean McBride
Sean, I think many Christians have not thought it through. I certainly didnt until I wanted to know the Christian traditional response to Christian Zionism. I think if they pick up a book like Ruether (depending on which of the two books) they will tend to accept whatever she says because she is an expert and will of course explain her view in a sophisticated way. So if she says... more... - W.Jones
I need to look more into her views on replacement theology before I can comment. I haven't read her other book. - Sean McBride
Ok -- she approaches the supersessionist issue from a feminist standpoint -- -- that's a different set of issues from her critique of Zionism -- highly problematic for many traditional Christians. I wouldn't dare to wade into that. Feel free to disagree with her on replacement theology. :) - Sean McBride
Sean: The one (rejection of traditional views on the testaments) runs into the other (upholding the Old Testament concepts in full force), even if the author does not intend that. Secondly, rejecting so called supersessionism from a feminist standpoint is counterintuitive. The New testament strengthened women's place in society. Jesus healed women and touched them and women played... more... - W.Jones
Just delete the thread- I can't delete "W.Jones" posts. Thank you. - WJones
An couple of side notes to your debate: most orthodox Jews take it for granted that the Talmud - with all its contradictions and argumentations - effectively supersedes the Old Testament's laws (Leviticus etc). The new laws - those 623 (is that the number? I keep forgetting) mitzvot, or rules, were what the Talmud laid out. Animal sacrifices were not required once the temple was gone... more... - Danaa
What I am saying is that the Christians have every right to consider Christianity as they know it to have superseded Judaism, or at least the the covenant. I have no idea why anyone would consider that an issue. - Danaa
News flash----Christianity and Judaism got a divorce centuries ago because of irreconcilable differences. Obsessing over this religious corpse is too much like necrophilia. - American
We make up, edit, revise and discard religious and secular ideologies as we go along -- they are human inventions. No one is obligated to believe anything. No ideology is eternally static or free from relentless challenge and interrogation. Watch out for tyrants who try to control and censor the thinking of others on the basis of this or that authoritarian ideology. - Sean McBride
Ideologies are usually about the acquisition of political and economic power and are based on self-hypnosis and social hypnosis. They are rackets. Hocus-pocus. Psychological weapons. - Sean McBride
American -- some strains of Zionism are trying turn Christianity into a guided missile for Israel by convincing Christians that their religion is subdordinate to Judaism. That is the cynical and manipulative psychological game that is being played here. And it has been highly effective -- witness the powerful role of Christian Zionists in contemporary American culture -- especially in... more... - Sean McBride
Danaa -- excellent point -- Judaism has often itself engaged in internal supersessionism throughout its history. Human history across the board has been one long process of supersessionism. We get new insights. We revise our beliefs. - Sean McBride
Yes I know what they have done and why ------we just disagree on the extent of their influence in American culture and politics----down here in the religious South-land the CZs are considered a fringe by the mainstream religious and religions. But we can accurately say that 'fringes' are running a lot of us US politics.....but they are still 'fringes' despite that, not mainstream. - American
Why do the "liberal" New York and Hollywood mainstream media give so much prominence to Christian Zionist voices in American politics and culture? The answer should be obvious: liberal Zionists and Likud Zionists are really pushing the same agenda and are working hand in glove. They are, quite simply, Zionists. But eventually mainstream Americans may show them the exits. Americanism and Zionism are in truth radically incompatible ideologies. - Sean McBride
'' Why do the "liberal" New York and Hollywood mainstream media give so much prominence to Christian Zionist voices in American politics and culture?..Sean)........All the Media is is the ' fringes.' They present only the ' fringe voices' and pov. The mainstream American voice is not presented in the media. - American
Sean - "a guided missile for Israel" - a very well put comment. The psychological/lithurgical game being played is effectively a bullying tactic. One that, I hate to say it, but Jewish scholarly rabbis have mastered through the ages. While Christians were out and about trying to survive in war riveted, church dominated Europe, Jewish talmudic minds were busy fighting to the hilt over... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- indeed -- the skillful manipulation of words, symbols, ideologies, rhetoric, etc. -- scientific propaganda -- is usually the key to achieving political domination. And the Jewish lobby overall can run circles around the Christian lobby -- especially the Christian evangelical lobby. It is much better educated. All of those Ivy League degrees (especially PhDs) acquire and... more... - Sean McBride
Having lived as a cult for more than a thousand years, Jewish people (well, segments thereof) know how to get through to other groups locked in an isolated and inward looking ideology. Not just the millenialists but also the Mormons. Where jewish manipulation through words and reliance on first hand knowledge of the OT fails, they do not make inroads. Where there are more educated... more... - Danaa
One more thing - a case in point. If you noticed how I respond sometimes to W Jones' sincere queries and statements about, say, the prophets, I rely on the original language quite a bit. Of course, the gist of my comments is that I carry no water for those prophets as I consider their collected works to be an amalgam of rants., and as a fellow ranter, I can tell a good rant from one... more... - Danaa
Unlike others in this country, in israel you are subjected to these endless prophetic harrangues as part of your schooling, so, as one brought up secular, obviously it taxed my patience. That may explain my dismissive attitude towards prophets, one and all, but perhaps does not excuse that twinge of condescention or rank pulling that I just can't seem to avoid. It's what makes it very... more... - Danaa
I guess I am one those of ' little faith'.....not to insult the religious, I respect people's right to their religion, but i find most religious studying and ranting to be like stirring a can of worms. I am good to go with the 10 Commandments and a few other better parts but the rest of it I am not interested in at all. - American
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