Sign in or Join FriendFeed
FriendFeed is the easiest way to share online. Learn more »

Danaa › Comments

American
The ISIS Videos ----http://thehill.com/policy... (hummm?. something a little too Hollywood about these videos to me)
' The clip, obtained by The New York Times and NBC News, also includes images of the “Mission Accomplished” banner that flanked President George W. Bush during a speech he gave on an aircraft carrier shortly after the U.S. invaded Iraq, as well as images of President Obama and the White House at night. - American
'' Audio of Obama declaring that American combat troops would not return to Iraq is dubbed over part of the clip, followed by an image of ISIS militants preparing to kill kneeling hostages. The terror group has previously released videos depicting the brutal decapitation of two U.S. journalists and a British aid worker. The video concludes as the words “Flames of War” flash on the screen, followed by “Fighting has just begun” and “Coming Soon.” - American
Only things I can think about these videos. They are being manufactured by the usual suspects (and given to the NYT and media) to propagandize us into more ME war. Or 'if' they are made by ISIS their purpose is to attract fanatical fighters to their cause. The only other possible motive for ISIS in these videos is like OBL's plan to egg the US into the ME,' draw us in and drown us' in a war of attrition. But I find them very suspicious. - American
The whole ISIS thing is suspicious--they are Sunni supremest and Islam fanatics (or so we have been told)----who came as least partly out of the Syrian rebels Saudi organized and financed. But ISIS was obviously 'organized' before they broke out of the Syria rebels and went on their own warpath----so Saudi, Israel and other ME rulers intel sources were bound to have known ISIS was... more... - American
The vibes on ISIS are all wrong. YANO -- Yet Another Neocon Op? - Sean McBride
Some interesting Google searches on the subject: # [Google; isis *] 1. abu bakr al baghdadi 2. al qaeda 3. attack america 4. benghazi 5. cia 6. fake 7. false flag 8. fidel castro 9. hoax 10. hollywood 11. israel 12. john mccain 13. mossad 14. neoconservatives 15. nick berg 16. rita katz 17. simon elliot 18. site intelligence 19. takfiri 20. white house - Sean McBride
Something no one is talking about, as in NONE. For nearly two years the suicide attacks in the heart of Iraq have been increasing. 100 on almost any day. The majority directed against Shite citizen gathering places and sometimes government installations or symbols. Somebody was financing these destructive attacks. Somebody was organizing them. There clearly was a plan behind the scenes... more... - Danaa
Danaa, Saudi Arabia is the one hating on Iraq and Syria: for their friendship with Iran. It's the house of saud and it's inbred cousins scattered around the petro gulf (excluding the sultanate of oman), that are paying cash wages for Da'sh hate and murder rampages - money coming in from Turkey too - arms supplied by uk, usa, israel and france (paid for with petro dollars) - trained and... more... - Taxi
I agree with you taxi, about the funding sources and the not-so-secret "trainers". Also about the direction - all pointing towards Iran. Though, as we now know, there were also those who use Da'sh as proxy to run interference against Russia. I am sure that the behind=the-scenes, with Turkey, the CIA and Mossad playing back-up roles for Saudi Arabia things must have been - and are -... more... - Danaa
Someone described Turkey's mideast policy as akin to milking the cow then kicking the pail - and it just keeps kicking and kicking it hoping the milk will get back into the pail all nice and white again. - Taxi
Sean McBride
MJayRosenberg: "The new Mondoweiss is so stale. Does home page ever change?" https://twitter.com/MJayRos...
The new interface has radically degraded the energy level of Mondoweiss. They should revert to the old interface and demand a refund. - Sean McBride
can you search for peoples comments any longer? Mondoweiss has past its peak and is heading to the dustbin. It was a good run though.. - Chu_
Wow, We all agree. It's not for the dustbin though nearly yet. - WJones
The designers are either careless, incompetent, or intentional. - WJones
Don't forget that you can use Google to search Mondoweiss, for instance: [Google; site:mondoweiss.net+schama http://www.google.com/#q=site...] - Sean McBride
My impression is that the new design was deliberately intended to devalue comments as much as possible -- and it has succeeded. - Sean McBride
Adam said they were working on the fixes for last 100 comments. But no updates and it' been more than a month. Are they behind in paying the Crowd Favorite? - Chu_
Sean would have done a better job - even if he doesn't know how to design websites. LOL - WJones
At the start of any website upgrade you meet with the developer and state what do you want to improve. They have went the other route, 'all hat and no cattle'. - Chu_
Whatever adam and phil intentions re the 'upgrade'. the site is a lot less than it was----not good at all. ..the old was much better. This is laid out all wrong, very clumsy. - American
graph number of Mondoweiss comments per month for the past five years - Sean McBride
This upgrade was a downgrade. - Sean McBride
Must unfortunately agree with you all. The new site has a discouraging feel to it.It's not just the comments but also the layout. No one comes to MW for photos and special effects. Those are mostly stock photos anyways. People come to MW for content and that content is now obscured in the interest of the infamous "clean" layout, and HuffPo style screaming graphics. . - Danaa
That before I even get to content. I also suspect a key part of the reason for the redesign was to "hide" or "obscure" the comments AND the archives, without actually eliminating them. Can't think of any other reason for the new design, since there seems to be no advantage. It did occur to me that this new style may be cheaper too. - Danaa
I suspect that a quick survey of all who read MW - comment or not - would show that hands down most dislike the new format. AS I said, it's hard finding a single reason why it's better than the old design, unless, as I suggested, it's a lot cheaper. - Danaa
Cheapness doesn't count because it's a "sunk cost" - IE there is no reason in terms of cost to pay money to design a website when the money was already paid years ago for a different design. - WJones
Huffpo has a good look to it - WJones
They now have longer deadlines for comments. My guess is that they weren't trying to kill the site, and that it was the designer - Crowd Favorite. - WJones
I agree w Danaa. They don't want to kill the site but cripple the comments section and become more of a huff post - Chu_ from Android
HuffPo does a great job of "hiding" the comments. they are there, heavily moderated, but the layout is such as to detract attention from them. Some people still comment on HuffPo but most would never bother. What on earth for if hardly anyone reads the comments or willing to go through hoops to add their voice? I actually hate their layout and rarely if ever consult HuffPo unless... more... - Danaa
I fear that Phil has been listening to the wrong people when it comes to the comments section. My rule of thumb would be to sample only protestants when it comes to comments and general interactive type forums, or really, any social setting. That's because I find protestant derived indivduals both more tolerant in debating styles and with greater tendency to see the bright side in... more... - Danaa
Huff post, to me, looks like a good news site in its appearance. But I agree that they downplay comments. - WJones
I agree with Danaa, the protestant or gentile style of communication doesnt mesh with the Jewish style. We are a lot more direct and to the point and I dont mean in a rude way---just to the point. We tend to bottom line things.and be more straight forward.. Commenting on MW is not good for my writing habits---I have to contort all around to 'soften up' my comments when there is nothing... more... - American
Killed by design. - Taxi
Wow, another MWer showed up. - WJones
So, what brings you here, Taxi? - WJones
It looks like a lot of people are saying this. it's probably the consensus by now. - WJones
The 'design' brings me here, Jonezy. - Taxi
Taxi! I know that name... - Chu_
Oooh it's been a while that I've seen that word " quorum". Quorum: "the minimum number of members of an assembly or society that must be present at any of its meetings to make the proceedings of that meeting valid" - MacBook Pro Dictionary. Hey thanks Chu and WJones for the faraway wave - waving back at yaz! BTW I wrote a friend about all the points that I think are wrong with the new... more... - Taxi
Taxi -- you should post your critique of the new Mondoweiss design here -- I would love to peruse your points. - Sean McBride
I might just do that, Sean - oblige you even though you bum me out when you think me a sassy Sisi sycophant. - Taxi
"sassy Sisi sycophant" -- how can one not appreciate someone who can craft a phrase like that? :) My mind is certainly open to better understanding your views on Egyptian politics. - Sean McBride
Taxi - gradual recession of free speech last 2 years is a nice way of putting it. I looked back to see when this all started, I thought it was Donald, but the new edict on oct 24, 2010 was written by Phil and Adam which basically say no more free dialogue. http://mondoweiss.net/2012... "But we’re going to sharply circumscribe commenters’ freedom... more... - Chu_
Taxi, your tongue is a sharp as ever - this is a glum little group here sometimes. Come glam us up.... - Danaa
Also, Taxi,we could use another voice in Sean's and my interminabble sqabble over the virtues and demerits of Twitter. He loves it, as in every one of its 100 permitted characters. And me, well, wordy as my word ever was, it just won't do. In the meantime, I win, because he brings useful twits here, so I have even less reason to scour the universe of idle verbiage and surly hashtags. - Danaa
Sean, just think where we might be right now if Morsi, who supported the cannibal terrorists occupying chunks of Syria, had stayed in power and his 'special' armed wing of the moslem brotherhood in the Sinai had taken full hold of the terrain there and infiltrated and flooded arms and monthly wages and their ideology into a desperate Gaza: redefining the Palestinian struggle in terms of... more... - Taxi
Hey Danaa - I'm not a member of twitter but every couple of days or so I click on this (bookmarked) twitter link for a laugh: https://twitter.com/TheTwee... - Taxi
Taxi, did you believe the results of the Al Sisi election? 96.1% sounds a bit unnatural. Seem's very possible he could morph into another dictator like Mubarak. - Chu_
Taxi -- you may be right about Morsi -- I will readily admit that I don't know as much about Egyptian politics as you do. I will pay attention to whatever you post on that subject. In our last exchanges on this topic I was mainly reacting in a visceral way to the [Wikipedia; August 2013 Rabaa Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...]. That was a bit too rich for my blood. - Sean McBride
Taxi, On Morsi. OK, you could be right. In the flip side, predictions are tough to make. If Morsi was in power still, maybe the Israelis might have not bombed Gaza because Gaza would be supported by Egypt. And maybe the crazy ISIS guys would not have been so powerful and extreme because Morsi could effectively support more moderate elements in the FSA. On the other hand, yes, maybe... more... - WJones
Chu, Of course it's not like 96% of Egyptians want Al Sisi (or for that matter Morsi). Ice cream would probably get 60-90% of votes in a popularity contest. Let me put it this way: Al Sisi and Morsi are not more popular than ice cream. - WJones
ha ha Jones. My point is 96% is only seen on the congressional floor. - when AIPAC cracks the whip for a vote. - Chu_
Israel has some popularity among everyday Americans, but it's not 96%, better than ice cream, populatiy - WJones
did you see that bogus plan about Egypt wants to put Gaza in the Sinai? Al Sisi or any Egyptian wouldn't propose such a plan. Sounds like Israeli misinformation being spread. Jonathan Tobin [Commentary Magazine] jumped on this pronto and described it as a “healthy sign.” - Chu_
Probably you are right. - WJones
'Sisi, an ex-military man who drums the patriotic chord daily, will definitely not ignore the thousands of Egyptian soldiers who lost their lives in the 1973 war, or the daring quest for peace that followed and the tricky negotiations, including an international tribunal for the disputed area of Taba, just to regain the last inch of Sinai. Anwar Sadat lost his life for Sinai, and Sisi... more... - Chu_
Midnight here - nighty night all ye old codgers! Seeyaz all in the marrows of tomorrow. - Taxi
You just said it's midnight. What time zone is that? Jerusalem, Cairo, or Athens? - WJones
TAXI: Subscribe me. - WJones
I'm in south Lebanon - 90 miles away from Jerusalem. - Taxi
Whatcha doin there? (In general) - WJones
When I see your name, I have an urge to tell you: "Get a taxi!" - WJones
I guess that's better than telling me to 'Get a Room!' - Taxi
I came for a bit of socio-political tourism, visiting this country and that in the middle east, then I eventually visited a friend's village here in the south of Lebanon and decided to extend my visit and rented a small farmhouse on the edge of northernmost point of the Galilee. The old part of the village here looks like old Jerusalem - very unspoiled and some natives still live on... more... - Taxi
S. Lebanon....say what up to the Hez for me...I was saying to Danaa last week how I heard that Izzy is getting an itchy trigger finger with the Hez. They're of course worried about them stockpiling all these new weapons. But Danaa seems to believe that they require another enemy at the gates which is fundamental to their cult behavior & unity. Plus, I don't think they have the gall to... more... - Chu_
Chu, the izzies dare not risk the hizb's promise of 90.000 rockets on tel aviv "and beyond" if they fuck with Lebanon again. No the israelis won't do that, but they are certainly cultivating Al Nusra in the Golan (73 miles from where I am) in the hope that eventually Al Nusra would have a military engagement with the hizb and weaken them, or at least tie up the hands of special hizb... more... - Taxi
Col Lang agrees and I think he has a good background for assessing it....>" Israel was lucky that Hizbullah did not throw all that stuff at them during the Gaza unpleasantness. Very lucky. This colonel is right. Iron Dome would fail against the fire that Hisbullah can bring down on them and it would have failed even more catastrophically against an HB/Hamas combined effort.... more... - American
MW--->""But we’re going to sharply circumscribe commenters’ freedom to address these issues as a special or unique Jewish problem, or to post arguments that any form of collective Jewish community-building is negative." IMO this is -The Jewish Fatal Flaw. While they eternally critique and often tear to shreds every non Jewish culture they are mentally incapable of grasping the necessity... more... - American
Sean should read up on how it's American policy to help maintain isarel's military superiority over all Arab countries - how it's the norm for the usa to use threat and coercion to stop other countries from selling sophisticated weaponry especially to the Levant Arabs. Sean should read the laughable list of weapons America gives to Lebanon, for instance. Hey, if Lebanon was allowed the... more... - Taxi
Taxi, and now it is being said US is providing intel and weapons to Lebanon. Is the Daily Star a good info source for inside Lebanon? - Chu_
WJones
Some Israeli nationalists debating on internet forums actually enjoy driving other users nuts with their dishonest claims, triumphalism, and aggression against Palestinians.
They like it so much, I have a hard time seeing them pulling back voluntarily. - WJones
They hate the word "Palestinian" so much, it is hard to see them treating a "Palestinian State", whose fate they now dominate, in a tolerable way. - WJones
And there's really no way to regulate the Israeli nationalists either in their fervor, unless they go totally off the rails. - WJones
They don't want to really debate honestly. They prefer gloating and muttering on about a fantasy god giving them real estate, while they think they are some neo-sparta. but take away their pork pie from uncle Sam and they got nothing. - Chu_
Have you ever debated one at length, like for an hour in discussion directly, or over a week on the internet? - WJones
No. To real live debate. - Chu_ from Android
So you have had a daily debate (say, one post a day) that lasted at least a week with an Israeli nationalist? - WJones
if hophmi is an Israeli nationalist, then yes. Also wondering Jew is another slippery guy that I guess you can say debates. But when they get a lot of pressure, they leave. Or pick any of the MW classic trolls, Witty, eee, etc. - Chu_
and sorry i didn't join the christian debate site you mentioned. After you said there were layers to gain access, I knew I'd be out of my league. That and free time is in short supply. - Chu_
Witty was too good a debater for MW's editors to handle. - WJones
yeah, he was a slippery guy. kinda miss his tactics. but he thought he could lull people into his perspective, but eventually got the masses enraged. I though Phil's banning of Witty was unnessary but I think he did it to say he was being balanced. MW terminated potsherd, who never said anything controversial, basically bitched a lot. - Chu_
Witty engaged his audience, and in that way he was more like Hasb agents I've seen on other forums. MW Hasb trolls are unusual in that they usually dont really try to engage people very well. - WJones
Unfortunately, you are right that "They don't want to really debate honestly." - WJones
I've yet to see a pro zionist admit Israel was a bad idea. Even JonS gets super defensive for Israel during Israel's killing sprees, but he seems to act like a liberal zionist in all other modes. Have you been able to debate them? - Chu_ from Android
I had to set a mental limit on my debates- like ten days only, or else it gets overwhelming. The most success I had with one person was to point out that thy would no longer be accepted for aliyah because they became Christian. It didn't change his overall view much though. - WJones
Their toughest issue is discrimination of Christians, because they prefer to see it as against Islam. - WJones
I remember articles how Israeli punks freely spit on the Greek Orthodox in the Greek quarter. What is scary is that this rising fascism in Israel has only increased since Rabin's assassination. The settler's, the army, the government are all working to achieve greater Israel. The perception problem they have now is that more US people are seeing that they are the problem for peace and... more... - Chu_
I see responses to obvious ziobots as useful only to inspire one to put together a good rebuttal as a way of disseminating information. I doubt anyone with any experience on the nets still believes they can change a ziobot's mind with cogent argument/facts. not going to happen. By definition, actually since zionism is more like a cult/deeply held ideology than an opinion or a conviction that's amenable to facts. - Danaa
The important role that ziobots play on MW, and other blogs is in getting people to assemble good information together that is then useful to the rest of us, lazy bums. This is one of the services rendered by Hostage when he stooped to responding to, say, hophmi, who had no standing in either the logic or fact based department. When Hostage was on, it was a very uneven battle, almost... more... - Danaa
In my own case, the ziobots allowed me a chance to sharpen my vocabulary and sometimes interject comic interludes - - yes, I wouldn't mind being Mooser's opening act.....one could do worse.... - Danaa
And in Witty's case, he inspired my start and long descent into the balmy/gooey realm of internet psychologizing. It was, I think a triumphant debut on the reality killing fields. - Danaa
But WJones, I know you are a serious more earnest human than myself. Just hate to see you waste valuable time on heart-drains and brainthrobes. - Danaa
Jones. If you ever want to chat with Witty, he always maintained a wordpress blog. see link: http://liberalzionism.wordpress.com/author... I thought I saw a comment on Lobe Blog from Witty about a year ago, that seemed like he changed. He didn't sound as slippery, more sincere. But I could be wrong - Chu_
Also I've never got a solid answer to this question from any pro-Israel defender: 'If the US and Israel are such close allies, what does the US receive in return from Israel that is equivalent to what we provide them?' Usually you'll hear some murmurings about medical technology, security systems, spreading the Western ideals (a big lie). - Chu_
Their answer is they spy on and fight in the Mideast. In Herzl's thinking they are a buffer or outpost. Now, more likely, they actually inflame things more, but that's the answer from the pro-Israeli side. - WJones
ask the Arabs, they are a blight to their Islamic sphere. And they are a drain for US and it's fading imperial power. Israel is siphoning the gasoline out of uncle Sam's foreign policy. - Chu_
Sean McBride
That Christopher Lydon show on liberal Zionism with Peter Beinart, Philip Weiss, Bernard Avishai and Jane Eisner http://radioopensource.org/whats-l...
I finally got around to listening to it. A few observations: - Sean McBride
Smartest person in the discussion: Lydon. Then Phil, then Beinart, then Avishai, then Eisner. - Sean McBride
Bernard Avishai and Jane Eisner are out to lunch, woolgathering, expressing classical liberal Zionist platitudes without any sense of the absurdity of their oxymoronic beliefs. They are sentimental, emotional, confused, in denial on the current state of Israeli politics. - Sean McBride
Woolgathering: indulgence in aimless thought or dreamy imagining; absentmindedness. - Sean McBride
Phil Weiss tried to cut through their empty obfuscation with a sense of urgency and emergency, but Avishai blew him off with a vague attitude of intellectual superiority (quite delusional on his part). - Sean McBride
Peter Beinart made an effort to draw distinctions between Americanism (modern Western democratic values, universalism, civic nationalism) and Zionism (ethnic and religious nationalism), but the conversation on that core topic went nowhere. - Sean McBride
There are surprisingly few comments on Lydon's website -- which underlines the point that Mondoweiss has been amazingly effective in inspiring intense and high-quality engagement with and among its readers. It would be a mistake for Mondoweiss to abandon (or even sabotage) that asset. - Sean McBride
I expected this show to deconstruct the term "liberal Zionism," but Avishai and Eisner successfully derailed that effort -- which is the typical pattern of behavior of liberal Zionists. The usual strategy: yes, we know that Israeli politics is on a bad track, but we *hope* that matters will improve in the future. But they never offer any realistic proposals for effecting that change. They are running interference for Likud Zionism and Greater Israelism. - Sean McBride
I have basically lost interest in even following the Jewish inter-fight on Israel because I dont think it will go anywhere important or change anything on Israel or US-Isr. Its become just useless noise. Phil wont get anywhere with this because he will not attack Jews or Zionist where they live..i.e... in their delusions of most important innocent victims in the universe and... more... - American
Notice that none of the participants are actually israelis (well, Bernard kind of is but a very very removed kind of Israeli - looking at everything from within his tiny leftist fortress). Moti peled could have single-handedly blown the two lib-zios away as if they were feathers. He knows the reality and can speak to it. Avishai can only speak to a wanna-be "reality" one that he thinks... more... - Danaa
Avishai gets away with his lib-zio shtick only as long as there are no real israelis around to disabuse him of his Alice in Wonderland scenarios. It's not to us that he lies. It's to himself. The magnes Zionist is, BTW, so much better (am using him for comparison because he, like Avishai, is a half-time israel academic, half-time American). - Danaa
One more thought - that Anglo-zionist concept off The saker - it just occurred to me that Avishai is a perfect example of the contamination of Anglo 1% style neoliberalism when grafted with Kudsu ivy of the Zio genome. - Danaa
Avishai and Eisner: self-hypnotized, self-deceived, fiddling while Rome burns, heads buried in the sand, etc. Liberal Zionist true believers. - Sean McBride
Further note on this show: many of the discussions among Mondoweiss commenters on these issues have been vastly superior in quality and substance to this broadcast. - Sean McBride
Online forums provide much superior tools for developing arguments in detail and with precision than TV and radio discussion formats. Points can be exhaustively pinned down. - Sean McBride
Chu_
The Triple Package: How Three Unlikely Traits Explain the Rise and Fall of Cultural Groups in America’ http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinion...
Chua and Rubenfeld seek to explain why certain cultural groups in America “do strikingly better than others in terms of wealth, position and other conventional measures of success.” They argue that eight groups are exemplary in this regard — Cubans, East Asians, Indians, Jews, Lebanese, Mormons, Nigerians and Persians — because they share a set of “unlikely” cultural characteristics. - Chu_
1. a belief in your own group’s self-worth and superiority; “2. an anxious uncertainty about your worth or place in society”; 3. and the discipline to resist temptation and endure in the face of opposition, - Chu_
"Other groups, of course, don’t exhibit the Triple Package: Appalachian people, African Americans and those who’ve embraced the allegedly permissive and hedonistic “mainstream, post-1960s liberal American principles” that have, we later learn, led to our national downfall. " - Chu_
Interesting. But what the 'Asia' Chau leaves out is she had ''to imigrate to a country set up by 'non Asians' for her '3 traits' to bring her any success. And we can see by Israel what the 3 traits of Jews have resulted in. US Cubans who fled Cuba couldnt even hold their own powerful and privilaged class positions against Castro. So much for their '3 traits.' - American
Another interesting 'trait' about immigrants with ethnic superitory attitudes is they dont explain why with their superior traits they couldnt manage to make their own countries to their liking and had to leave them. If these ethnics had superior traits you would think they could create a superior society in their own countries--but they dont do they? - American
I had a Cuban classmate in high school who everyone hated. His father had transferred his money out of Cuba before Castro took over but this guy couldnt get over not having 'servants' like his family had in Cuba and not being being considered upper or ruling class here in the US like they had been in Cuba. He was very bitter about it--which translated into constantly insulting all of us American mongrels because we didn't act subservient toward him. - American
Regarding the Chua groups (funny how she saw fit to add Nigerians. How many has any one of us met recently? must have been a very large migration indeed. Or perhaps just confined geographically? I am serious - have not met or heard of a single nigerian in California, washington State, Arizona or Texas. So where is this illustrious group located? - Danaa
Glad you brought this book back into play, Chu. I did not read it yet, only summaries, but two things strike me right away: immigrants from most of the groups mentioned have generally come from the more well off parts of their society. IOW, when immigrants arrive, they get to partake of monetary and support resources already available to them in the states As WELL AS drw on resources in... more... - Danaa
The other two groups - Jews and Mormons are unique in their tribalism. Mormons cornered an entire state and jews cornered entire professions. Both of these groups rely on tribal network and access to opportunities/capital/connections. An enterprising mormon and jewish person will always have a place to go to for raising that first chunk of cash they need for a new business. America,... more... - Danaa
I did not mention the east Asian groups (Koreans, Chinese) because those are complicated groupings that require longer comments than FF is appropriate for. Besides, I wouldn't want to repeat what others have already said without attribution. - Danaa
I have some good personal experience to draw on when it comes to the advantages of ethnic based networks in the US. Not just my own but observations of others with whom I came into contact. - Danaa
danaa fyi. you cant talk about minority powers in USA :D serious though I remember you mention the wink wink with co religioninsts in the workplace. I've seen it myself. And it's not only them, but other people who are asian-nation, et al. - Chu_
I take it you agree, Chu, right? I've said before - and it's only an assertion based on experience, not a proper study - that were Jews not uniquely tied to the failed moral enterprise called Israel, were israel not in play, Jews would be very much like mormons and other strongly networked groups in the US. They would still have huge influence - well beyond their numbers, they would... more... - Danaa
Some of us wish Chinese Americans were more political, at least locally. It was hard enough to just get them to be proactive with regard to a local school board. They complain a little then take their children to extra-curricular studies, like Kumon, if they feel school falls short. While the rest of us jump through hoops trying to fix the curriculum on local, state and sometimes even... more... - Danaa
Apologies to all if i struck a wrong note somewhere - how could I not, with so many ethnicities to mention and ruminate about. Still, I could not believe Chua could make the arguments she did in her book. But I know why - the jews gave her cover - no wonder she put in the Nigerians as one of the 8 groups (members of which none of us probably met. a very small minority) - I could so hear... more... - Danaa
PS - was trying to give pepsi some material. I know he needs some.... - Danaa
Sean McBride
Web-based publications without lively and high-quality comment sections are boring as hell.
I agree. The comments section has become integral to the article. Comments sections make it public square - open to criticism or embellishing the article. - Chu_
Many of the most popular blogs attract a cohort of commentators, who agree or disagree with the blog's author, are nonetheless attracted over and over by the lively discussion. - Danaa
So, I agree with both Chu and Sean. lately I have been wondering why some blogs become super-popular while others, often authored by interesting people, languish. I think I am seeing a few rules of thumb emerging as the key to popularity. One is a great comment section with lots of participants. Another rule is the blog author himself/herself. Generally people seem to like something about the blog owner, an aspect highlighted by their willingness to engage with commentators. - Danaa
Example: Moon of Alabama. A very loyal following this blog has gathered. Articles often garner over 100's of comments. Many that are useful with new links and a few that are downright insightful. - Danaa
Of course, with lots of commenters around, a few food fights will always break up, but smart blog owners seem good at defusing those, sometimes by letting them run out of steam, rather than run a few offensive characters out of town. - Danaa
mondoweiss seems to be withering on the vine nowadays. Can you even go back and edit your comments yet, or go to the last 100 comments? It's been a month and they haven't addressed these items. - Chu_
A recent blog I have been consulting for news and opinions about Ukraine is The Vineyard of The Saker. It's quite good, having attracted numerous people who translate articles from Russian and sometimes provide subtitles. Something about The saker makes him a sympatico figure. He writes at length, has analytical skills AND, very importantly, a point of view which he articulately... more... - Danaa
MW's comment section seems to be suffering. Maybe they like it that way. - American
The saker's blog reminds me of Glenn greenwald original Salon perch. Same kind of chaotic and free for all feel to the comments section, similar participation level by the Blog owner, similar cadre of well reasoning vs shrill or knee jerk comentators, that the blog owner nonetheless tolerates (unless they get out of hand, in which case they get suspended for a while). - Danaa
American, I agree about the suffering of the Comments section at MW. I partly expected that to happen as a side effect of the blog's popularity. I wouldn't give up commenting altogether though, even though I rarely engage because of the limited responses. - Danaa
vineyard of the saker (eagle) - so that's like a catbird seat reference. I read it last time, will check it out again. There are so many places to go for data nowadays. It's terrific. - Chu_
"From the Saker himself: "While I do not distrust any specific person amongst you, I am trying to keep my "thin anonymity" up as long as possible. Once my read identity comes up (which I know will happen sooner or later), it will be a major distraction and a pain in the a** for me to deal with. I want to keep focusing on issues and topics, not personalities. If I start accepting money... more... - Chu_
By contrast I bring you Richard Silverstein's blog which has comments but not so many. I won't say more but I do believe that the key to the difference (and I DO like many of Silverstein's article - he carved himself a good niche and is pretty prolific). is the level and tenor of engagement by the blog owner. Richard is quick to identify and shoot down some of the nastier intruders, but he is much more terse or just sparse in engaging with supporters or his view or others who try to enlarge upon it. - Danaa
"Off the top of my head, he lives in Florida, he is of Russian descent but his family were anti-Soviet dissidents who left. At one point he was a military analyst during the Kosovo war, and very pro-war, pro-West until some of his experiences during that war changed him and he left that profession in disgust. He was anti-Soviet but has gradually become pro-Putin. He gets a bit effusive... more... - Chu_
I like Vineyard of the Saker also. Here's another for those who like articles and reporting on a variety of countries.....http://axisoflogic.com/artman... met the editor, Les Blough, over the Israel issue 12 years ago when he lived in Boston. He moved to Venezuela around 2004 I think it was and has kept his site going there. - American
Thanks Chu for bringing up that aspect. W. Jones - this should interest you: The Saker is passionately attached to his orrthodox Christian faith, especially the more mystical aspects of it. He is a good example of a blogger who is informed through a near-religious ardor, which, again one may or may not connect to, but it provides a great hook for his passion. People out there need to... more... - Danaa
Thanks for the recommendation American. I'll check it out. Am always on the prawl for smart jewels on the nets. For me, BTW< the motivation for reading alternative and deeper takes on given situations, is sometimes just that - I am drawn to sparkle (but hate diamonds so please don't send me any.....I may give to the first homeless person I see. Me love Plastic and shiny glass baubles...) - Danaa
The Saker writes: " I just want to say that this difference between what I was reading in the press and in the UNPROFOR reports ended up making a huge difference in my entire life. Again, NOT A SINGLE ASPECT OF THE OFFICIAL NARRATIVE WAS TRUE, not one. You would get much closer to the truth if you basically did a "negative" of the official narrative.” - WJones
Sounds like the official IP narrative. - WJones
W Jones - sometime when you get a chance tell us what you think of Russian Orthodoxy as a faith. I know next to nothing about it (unsurprisingly). - Danaa
Danaa, Do you think Israel is going to focus on Hezbollah? I cant understand the logic with Israel often. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news... - Chu_
Chu, when it comes to news from the vauned halls of Israel's great strategic thinkers and tinkerers, an ounce of caution beats a pound of gold. israel, as you well know, always needs an enemy to beat up on - or at least the prospect of amilitary action somewhere on the horizon. With the gaza operation wound down, Iran shrill somewhat reduced to a white noise hiss, ISIS being the new... more... - Danaa
I see your point about the enemy on the distant horizon. I read early in the summer that Israel feared Hezbollah's stash of weapons has increased greatly from the Syrian civil war and true to form, Israel was getting the itchy trigger finger about their stockpiles of weaponry. - Chu_
Danaa: Russian, Greek, and Middle Eastern Orthodox Christianity are basically the same thing. The differences are not considered religiously significant. It carries on the religion of the first centuries of mainstream Christianity, like the Greek Church fathers, St. Jerome, Tertullian, etc. It is like Christianity without the additions that Catholicism and Protestantism made to it. It... more... - WJones
Since the time of the Bolshevik revolution, the church in Russia became very weak politically, but it has a very important cultural and spiritual value for Russian people, even though church attendance is probably less frequent than among Americans. - WJones
It has a strong mystical, prayerful side of it like Buddhism does. But it is not Buddhist in its philosophies. It's just that it is more Eastern in its meditation. - WJones
There are major elements of Orthodox worship like menorahs and hakafahs that are direct carry-overs from Orthodox Judaism. - WJones
Thanks for the elucidations, WJones. I wish I had more time to learn something about the different denominations. one thing Ukraine taught us is that the Russian and catholic orthodox versions are quite divergent with the first common in east Ukraine and the second in the western part. It seems that religion became kind of tied up in this conflict, partly perhaps because the Russian... more... - Danaa
OK, here is what happened. Palestine and Ukraine were, since the beginning Orthodox. Their services were much like Orthodox Judaism and have a strong aspect of meditation. In 1100-1400 AD, Poland captured West Ukraine and Palestine and made an arrangement with many of the Christians where they could keep acting like Orthodox in their worship services but they would have to swear... more... - WJones
Assuming Sean McBride hasn't been excommunicated (I am using humor here, guys), he could go take Communion in any of the Eastern Catholic churches in Palestine or Ukraine. In Christianity, Communion reflects the idea that you are in full spiritual unity with other people. - WJones
"In Christianity, Communion reflects the idea that you are in full spiritual unity with other people." -- this is an aspect of Christianity that I find appealing. - Sean McBride
Me too. That's why I wish Catholics had coffee hour like Orthodox do. But then again, Catholic Churches do a good job with their public festivals and block parties. - WJones
why do greek orthodox dress in black robes and wear skullcaps? Is this stemming from Judaic practices? - Chu_
Offhand I don't know of any Greek Orthodox who wear skullcaps. Some of the Egyptian (Coptic) monks wear a head covering that fits tightly around the skull and flows down the back, but they are not in our communion. There are really four or five main branches of mainstream Christianity: Protestants, Catholics, Greek/Russian Orthodox, Coptic/Oriental "Orthodox"(monophysites), and the... more... - WJones
The black dress may come from Judaic practices, but I don't know. Personal modesty and humbleness is important in their thinking, as opposed to being showy. It's a personal ascetic style. - WJones
Greeks wear a "skufia", but it is not the same as a skullcap because it does not lie flat on the skull like a skullcap. I believe that it does come from Jewish practices, but it could be coincidence. Pagan romans wore hats too, for example. - WJones
interesting. I searched and found an 'An Around-the-World History of the Skullcap and its Modern Socio-Political Significance'. 60+pgs http://www.dieter-philippi.de/files... - Chu_
Good overview WJones - you should write a new Guide for the Perplexed Neo-Pagans ....the ways in which early Christianity split is quite interesting. I never knew much about that period. In the israeli school system mum's the word, so all I know are tid-bits I picked up along the way.... - Danaa
Islam is an example of splintering of Christianity in my view. Muslims call Jesus the Christ (Masih) and consider Mary to have been a virgin. The fact that they don't consider Him God in my view doesnt mean they arent Christian, because some other Christian sects didn't, early on. - WJones
It's a common, although not the official, view that the differences between Nestorians, Oriental(eg Coptic), and Greek Orthodox Christians are mainly semantic and there are efforts to get the churches to reunite. Personally, I think that in theology they split over a semantic argument, a bit like the debate on Supersessionism is between Christians who arent CZs. - WJones
for Muslims Christ is a prophet. And they always say right after his name - 'peace be upon him'. - Chu_
<<for Muslims Christ is a prophet. And they always say right after his name - 'peace be upon him'. >> Right. But Christ was a prophet too. - WJones
jones, what's sad abou Jesus in the USA sometimes is that many people exploit it. i.e. convicts, crooks, & born-agains use Christ as a get out of jail card. It pollutes the core message and it's exploited by Media. Look at comments online, so many people blame christianity for all, but they miss the core message. I know people first hand who complain about religion, especially Christianity, but don't criticize Judaism for the apartheid state. They are huff post people generally. Surely you've seen it. - Chu_
I can imagine, - WJones
Danaa
Interesting definitions from The Saker - an Anglo-Zionist http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014...
This is worth a read. I liked the way he conflated the Anglo and the Zio with the 1%. It's kind of like a Venn diagram. Lots of overlap. - Danaa
The phenomenon of the Neo-Con/Neo-Lib does indeed seem to have been invented in the Anglo-sphere. I think what The saker gets right is that - although they came from vastly different places - neocon, from imperial foreign policy (with zio overtones) and neoliberal from economic models, there does seem to have been a convergence of sorts. Possibly the overlap happened through the zionist/Jewish branches. Back to my Ivy model i think. - Danaa
Chu, Sean, this BTW is the kind of thing I had in mind for a tree of ideas. Strange branchings, convergences and confluences. Interestingly for the prefix "neo" - neo-conservative is hardly a true conservative and neo-liberal is hardly a true liberal. It seems that the neonatal phase of ideas is as different from its progenitor as neonatal is from prenatal. - Danaa
I am into prefixes today. Anyone noticed that the protagonist name in The matrix is "Neo"? must contemplate.... - Danaa
An aside; i highly recommend The saker blog. One of the few places where one can find dependable updates of the evolving military situation in Ukraine. Plus he gets some interesting summaries from others about other conflict areas of the world (SITREPS). - Danaa
The Vineyard of The Saker is a good companion blog to Moon of Alabama. those two are essential readings for maintaining sanity while observing the machinations of the empire of chaos. - Danaa
But when you mention the strange convergences, give me a few examples? I see the tree could be modeled as two sides of a leaf (Anglo/Zio). Although I almost feel like the Anglo formed the power structure, and Jews eventually found a way to move in to this power structure and replace the old anglo realm, like the universities. (I noticed sayer mentions banking) - Chu_
The saker's take is of course, not complete. For example, it obviously can't be just on the 1% level - think of the Christian Zionists on one side, and ultra-orthodox communities on the other side. So the basic concept needs ome extensions to "lower" levels, which is where the "branches" come in. - Danaa
Chu, I like your idea of the Anglo forming the power structure (cf, the tree trunk + lower branches?) with the jewish power structure basically "grafting" itself onto the original tree - surrounding the trunk and growing new branches to almost take over the original ones. I need to think through this idea, especially figure out what the roots are. Sometimes agricultural world can be inspiring....except for some reason I still got this invasive ivy image splashing around in the brain.... - Danaa
' what the roots are. Sometimes agricultural world can be inspiring....except for some reason I still got this invasive ivy image splashing around in the brain.... - Danaa )......I think what you need to liken the Zios grafting onto the US or Anglo's tree is the Kudzu weed................http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - American
Thanks American - I remember MRW brought up this Kudzo weed - I'll look into it as a good example of a particularly voracious plant species. - Danaa
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Settler group demands segregated bus lines out of fear for security - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
A settler group has posted a video of a bus filled with Palestinian man alongside a Jewish woman as a reason to segregate buses on the occupied West Bank for the security of Jews. Their flyer portrays integrated buses as a suicide bomb waiting to happen.
What is meant by 'occupied'? - David Spiegler
Look it up, David. It means conquered AND oppressed. Kind of like the conquistadors did to South America and the Mongolians did to Europe under Ginghis Khan. Sadly for the Mongols, they could not hang on to their occupied areas for more than a 100 years or so. Hopefully, Israel will be evicted from its conquered lands a little bit sooner. Conquest and occupation were BTW quite common in... more... - Danaa
WJones
Where are things headed in Palestine/Zion?
Their society is becoming seriously more intolerant about Palestinians and other religions with each generation. The rightwing Netanyahu lost popularity for not being abusive enough. Meanwhile, the US left and human rights community is rejecting their system of discrimination increasingly over the years. Their state has a continuing history of brutalization toward Palestinians along the lines of settlement of the West Bank, with occasional expulsions, especially in the Nakba. - WJones
At one end, they could reenact the Nakba, and this time kill or expel 75% of Palestinians. That would be tough in terms of international politics, even with the Arab countries' weaknesses. At the other end, we could see the fruition of the BDS movement like with South Africa. But it seems a long way from that. - WJones
Nonetheless, the situation seems very unstable, with a growing large minority of Israelis wishing for expulsion, and a solid history of conflict with the state, its neighbors and Palestinians. - WJones
What do you think, Sean and Danaa? - WJones
One scenario: Israel will move towards greater ethno-religious nationalist extremism, work to drive "the West" into an apocalyptic war against Islam (relying heavily on false flag ops), and use that chaos as an opportunity to expel most Palestinians from Greater Israel (or kill them). If Israel doesn't get its way, it will unleash the Samson Option on the world (nuclear, biological,... more... - Sean McBride
Another scenario: powerful Jewish players in the Diaspora recognize the dangers of the above scenario and force Israel to abandon its dream of building Greater Israel. Israel accepts the two-state solution and settles down into a state of normality vis-a-vis the rest of the world. - Sean McBride
At this point in history, scenario 1 seems more likely than scenario 2. - Sean McBride
If we're speculating I'd say Scenario 1 - except I believe the Sampson option is one big-old bluff. American Jews et al. are happy to continue helping Israelis with their greater Israel agenda. Some are sour about the prospect, but the large majority turn a blind eye to what happens every day. Dead Gazan children - so what - we're talking about the Jewish homeland and having Jews feel safe and comfy in their 'reclaimed' land. - Chu_
Why do you think the Samson Option is a bluff? - Sean McBride
I dont think they would use the Samson option unless they were going to be conquered or worse. They didn't use it in the Yom Kippur War when they were invaded and ended up giving up territory. I am not saying they wouldn't, just that it's pretty unlikely, since they would end up vanishing themselves. - WJones
As screwed up as the Israeli 'hive' mind is, I don't think they would run the risk of endangering every diaspora Jew in the world. If Israel so much as lobbed a few nukes toward Europe, there would likey be a witch hunt for Jews worldwide. What would American support say after Israel decimates other populations for no specific reason other than revenge and 'they weren't Jewish'? - Chu_
You aren't thinking creatively about the Samson Option. Extremists within the Israeli government wouldn't "lob a few nukes toward Europe." They could wreak havoc on a much greater scale than a few nukes while concealing the trail of evidence back to themselves. They could even frame Muslims for the deed. There is a sector of the Zionist establishment that does not operate within the rational framework that governs the thinking of most of us -- picture Jonestown writ large. - Sean McBride
[Wikipedia; Suitcase Nuke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...] - Sean McBride
I know they 'could' do more damage with their arsenal, but l was saying they targeted Europe. I don't know how you believe that they could conceal this. Major nukes get launched from specific sites. Were not talking field nukes (mini nukes) with the sampson option. - Chu_
The Samson Option includes portable nukes and mini-nukes, biological weapons, chemical weapons, cyberwarfare, financial warfare, etc. -- the whole shebang, in combination. Whatever works. - Sean McBride
Think of all the ways the global economy could be brought to its knees without using nuclear missiles. - Sean McBride
Envision more advanced versions of Stuxnet directed at American and European nuclear power plants. There are a zillion realistic scenarios. - Sean McBride
"Think of all the ways the global economy could be brought to its knees without using nuclear missiles. " - are we still talking about the Sampson option or something else? - Chu_
Is Judaism at it's core about revenge? Look at this Sampson option, or how it aims to undercut other religions. What is the aim? To restore Judaism as a world religion? Doubtful, since they are so particular about allowing outsiders into their ranks. - Chu_
Here's another possibility and imo, more likely. "Palestine Will Win" http://www.counterpunch.org/2014... .............<<“The Palestinian people will win” may seem delusional and hyperbolic. But it is not a rhetorical device; it is a moral argument rooted in a reading of anti-colonial history. Israel has browbeaten the world, manipulated anti-Arab sentiment, and... more... - weareone
I see somebody has picked up the use of Russian style quotation marks. - WJones
Russians can even put quotation marks inside of their "pine tree style " quotation marks: «Пароход „Титаник“ столкнулся с айсбергом». - WJones
<<The steamer "Titanic" crashed with an iceberg>>. - WJones
Alt+0171 = « Alt+0187 = » - WJones
W.Jones, I agree about Israel's turn to the right and it becoming more orthodox and theocratic in character. That shift is well under way. The merging of extreme right wing politically, religion based sanctification, the growing paranoaia/xenophobia (cf persecution complex) and the indifference to human lives not theirs as witnessed during that Gaza assault, does portend dire winds. In... more... - Danaa
For one, you mentioned the "left" i the US. I am not sure there is such a thing. There is certainly no cohesive left in any kind of numbers that it would take to affect change of any kind. Just look at Citizens United. The "left" is united in wanting to repeal that. Their unity, such as it is, can result in no action because there are not enough of them and their influence on the... more... - Danaa
By the same token, Sean's "samson" option is not likely either. Israelis are, at the bottom of it, cowardly when it comes to their individual person - despite much sword waving and bluster. As a people they don't have the stamina for ritualistic harakiri. They can never produce a single Kamikazi pilot and they will never speak as one. What can happen is that crazy, irrational... more... - Danaa
Upshot: yes, the coming new naqba will be gaining force, as time goes on and will likely succeed in cornering palestinians into batustans before any major blow-back against the jewish state happens. Too many American jews support (many in secret) the "Greater israel" project. Too many other jews of the World are just too damn passive, just like the rest of us. Evil happens because good... more... - Danaa
The solution to the "Israel problem" will, I'm afraid, come from without, from outside the jewish sphere. It will come when enough people are hurt and enough information has become available to pinpoint the blame. That solution will go way beyond "anti-semitism", I'm afraid. It will come as part of a cataclismic rise against the 1% and will happen when global warming and peak oil... more... - Danaa
What about the fact that Russia and the Israelis have found each other useful at times? Russia wanted the Israeli state as an ally in 1948- it was the Israelis who went back on whatever assurances they gave Russia of actually being one of the nonaligned nations. Nowadays they do intelligence sharing. - WJones
In the meantime, more BDS, more broadly and unapologetically, is the best step forward. Buy nothing from Israel, trade with no one, boycott them culturally and academically. Disdain their tourists. More than anything, spread the word to others. Perhaps, who knows, something may happen before the most dire of scenarios I envision will come to pass. - Danaa
WJones - this "Bond" between israel and Russia is just something on the surface. Putin knows better than to have one enemy too many. The alliance is one between Oligarchs rather than any true real collusion of interests. The israelis know it is Russia that stands between them and their ultimate goal. The Russians know that what alliance they have there is one of convenience - don't take... more... - Danaa
'It will come as part of a cataclismic rise against the 1% and will happen when global warming and peak oil inflection points have been breached. ' - Danaa, It's interesting how they (Israelis and outside Jews) seem to continue their 'ho-hum' plot of occupation & eradication of Palestinians without much recourse. It's the power and the fear of that power that crushes the sense of normal... more... - Chu_
Chu - massive indifference, indeed. I'll post later a really interesting take of The Saker pn what Anglo-Zionists are. I could have practically written it myself - but with one addition - as the zio-neoconuts took over foreign policy and security instruments, such policy the US may have ever had became dumbed down all the way to the gutter. All the smart strategic thinking guys were... more... - Danaa
Danaa, thanks. I'll read the Saker piece later. And please post it on the other feed. We can leave the ideas there and hash them out later... - Chu_
Sean McBride
Tikun Olam: It cost Israel $1.2-million for every Gazan it killed during Operation Protective Slaughter. https://twitter.com/richard...
A lot of the people who died were hamas and islamic jihad. Are you saying they should have lived? - David Spiegler
It seems israel lost only 67 storm troopers. Are you saying there should have been more for the price? - Danaa
WJones
Silverman interview on Meet the Press in Israel, https://www.youtube.com/watch... It starts at about 27:00 The interviewer gets pointed in her questioning. Silverman says that the State is more normal than she expected, but that she thought it would have better PR because it's Jewish. The interview feels more uncomfortable from there.
Actually, I like her style of humor and she is pretty. I like Howard Stern's humor a little bit too for that matter. - WJones
This same interviewer did an interview with Noam Chomsky. I thought it went much better with him, even though he was being asked about his relations with militant groups in the Mideast. This interviewer has a tough style. American reporters would not ask those kinds of personal questions about their Jewishness, normally. - WJones
AWKWARD. - WJones
This interview with Chomsky goes along much better for the interviewee, even though the questions were tougher: https://www.youtube.com/watch... - WJones
The discussion went well for Chomsky here: https://www.youtube.com/watch... - WJones
Actually, it was an interesting interview, not in what Silverman said but the interviewer questions revealed the huge gap between Israeli self-centerness and Jewish american sense of identity as Americans who are jewish. The interviewer totally did not seem to get that Silverman has a life as a comedian that is not at variance with other aspects of her life. That pointed question about... more... - Danaa
Thanks for sharing WJones. I think I can make something out of this. It wasn't IMO as awkward as it was revealing in the separation between the two worlds. Sarah is a human who happens to be a comedian and whose shtick is Jewish themed jokes, because, well, she can. The interviewer is a totally different kind of human who is stuck in the Israeli bubble that is actually the anti-thesis... more... - Danaa
Israelis take themselves way too seriously. And feel way too entitled. That much came across just in this one little interview. - Danaa
I wonder if she is an Eastern European interviewer, and if Israelis' attitudes and personalities vary widely on their national background- or by this time has a distinct Israeli nationality arisen? Ms. Silverman is pretty American. - WJones
Sean McBride
Analysing Zionism: interview with Jacqueline Rose from 2005 | bat020.com - http://bat020.com/2014...
Analysing Zionism: interview with Jacqueline Rose from 2005 | bat020.com
"The state of Israel was founded in 1948 when Zionist militias — with the connivance of British authorities — embarked on a brutal ethnic cleansing programme that drove over 750,000 Palestinians from their homes, an event known as the Naqba, or catastrophe." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
“But the strongest rage has been against the book’s use of psychoanalysis. This comes from people who are convinced that Zionism is completely rational, that it was the pursuit of a Jewish national homeland in the face of historic disaster—and that nothing else needs to be said. But there’s a lot more that needs to be said to understand why it won’t budge, why it defends itself with such fierce ideological and Biblical commitment.” - Sean McBride
"Reading the book it’s not hard to see why it sparked such a vociferous response from the Zionist right. Rose meticulously documents the way in which Zionism was from its earliest roots shot through with a “messianic” streak that celebrated cataclysmic redemption and militarised colonial violence." - Sean McBride
"As Sabby Sagall argued in a recent review of Rose’s book, “All the evidence indicates that Israel is immune to internal calls for radical change or movements from below. Change will, therefore, have to come from outside.”" - Sean McBride
Rose's was the first book I ever read on Zionist. - American
American, I believe I saw you once recommend this book on MW (Unless it was MRW who also recommends books...). So I ended up buying it and id not regret. Had lots of useful information for me. See? I listen... - Danaa
Yep I did recommend it, maybe MRW did too. I didn't read much about Zionism or Jews when I first got attached to the Isr issue, I was more into the politics of it on the US side in the beginning. When I started to comment on MW several years ago all the jewish centric and related discussions prompted me to read more about jewish history because I was picking up what seemed like clues to... more... - American
In regard to what I consider one of the major problems within Jewishness as defined mostly by how outside critiques of it are outlawed even by anti Zionist, here is Aztmon--->"" The popularity of my criticism of Jewish identity politics is well established by now.""..Gilad).......The howls over criticizing Jewish identity politics is another example of their demand for 'exceptionalism'.... more... - American
Two sets of interest: 1. set; Jewish critiques of non-Jewish cultures 2. set; non-Jewish critiques of Jewish culture - Sean McBride
Jewish nationalism (Zionism) is the only expression of ethnic and religious nationalism that not only enjoys legitimacy in the modern Western democratic world, but which demands and often receives lavish worship and declarations of eternal devotion. One would think that more inquiring minds (like Elizabeth Warren) would be bothered by the discrepancy -- but it is much easier to pretend not to notice the situation -- to play along with it. - Sean McBride
I am willing to bet that jewish critiques of non jewish culture out number non jewish critiques of jewish culture by about a million to one. When I was doing some reading and research on Jewishness I looked for some non jewish takes on jewish culture and could hardly find any--the ones I did find were done eons ago prior to WWII----the holocaust quashed any examinations of it... more... - American
How many prominent Jewish authors have engaged in vigorous criticism of the American government, European governments, Christianity, Western culture, Islam etc. over the last half century? How open have those authors been to non-Jewish critiques of Jewish culture, Judaism, Zionism and the Israeli government? Quite a few of them want the criticism to flow only in one direction. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Liberal Zionism Is Dying. The Two-State Solution Shouldn’t Go With It. | The Nation - http://www.thenation.com/blog...
Liberal Zionism Is Dying. The Two-State Solution Shouldn’t Go With It. | The Nation
"In 1948, Hannah Arendt published an essay in the magazine Commentary—at the time still a liberal magazine—titled “To Save the Jewish Homeland.” She lamented the increasingly militaristic, chauvinistic direction of Zionism, the virtual unanimity among Jews in both the United States and Palestine that “Arab and Jewish claims are irreconcilable and only a military decision can settle the issue; the Arabs, all Arabs, are our enemies and we accept this fact; only outmoded liberals believe in compromises, only philistines believe in justice, and only shlemiels prefer truth and negotiation to propaganda and machine guns…and we will consider anybody who stands in our way a traitor and anything done to hinder us a stab in the back.”" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"This nationalist strain of Zionism, she predicted, might succeed in establishing a state, but it would be a modern-day Sparta, “absorbed with physical self-defense to a degree that would submerge all other interests and activities.” It would negate the very humanistic Jewish values that originally fed the Zionist dream. “Palestine Jewry would eventually separate itself from the larger... more... - Sean McBride
"It’s difficult to avoid the conclusion, sixty-six years later, that she was right." - Sean McBride
'' It would negate the very humanistic Jewish values that originally fed the Zionist dream.'''....There were no very humanistic values that fed the Zionist dream---that's another lie they tell themselves. - American
American, those "humanistic jewish values" are basically enlightenment values that jewish writers did much to appropriate as something "sort of" jewish. Of course, Talmudic text has some good passages, and there was humanism in the words attributed, in particular, to Hillel. Alas, the "good stuff" and/or "wise stuff' is buried in the Talmudic exhortations and deliberations around how to... more... - Danaa
The Talmud is like the Koran in many ways - you read into it what you want and pick out of it what you want. As for the rest of the "Jewish values" I think they mean family values and emphasis on education. In other words, Chinese values. OK< with one exception - argumentation - there's a great jewish value for you. Wanna have it? it's for sale, you know.... - Danaa
Anyways, you are right about it being high time to start calling out this "Jewish values" shtick. I would however assume the writer was just as careless as most. Time for some serious deconstruction! - Danaa
The interesting project will be to separate out those Jewish values that revolve around Jewish ethnic nationalist self-interest from those that don't. Mainstream Judaism has already been completely swallowed and absorbed by Zionism (Jewish ethnic nationalism). - Sean McBride
If life is mostly about the pursuit of one's ethnic nationalist self-interest -- which is the aggressive and relentless message of Zionism -- then we will be in a real mess. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
First impressions of the new Mondoweiss
A step backwards. The 100 most recent comments is still not working. Mark and copy is gone. The edit button for comments is gone. - Sean McBride
Too much emphasis on cosmetic changes -- not enough attention to upgrading basic communications protocols to 2014 standards. Apparently the designers of the new system aren't familiar with the revolution in social media platforms -- they are far behind the curve. - Sean McBride
Thank God I can filter Mondoweiss through Friendfeed -- to add the important features that are missing. - Sean McBride
100 recent comments gone. Was this intentional. A way to limit the skirmishes between comments. - Chu_
However -- we still need to give Mondoweiss some time to fix the inevitable bugs which accompany major changes like this. - Sean McBride
What is Mark and copy? - WJones
"The edit button for comments is gone." A slow death. I wonder if they will actually ban comments altogether. - WJones
When you mark/select, copy and paste text, you need to be able to see what you are marking/selecting through a color contrast. - Sean McBride
The elimination of the 100 recent comments is probably gone deliberately, as has the side bar showing comments on threads (a common feature in many platforms). I doubt it'll return. The idea is to hide, not highlight comments. This little party is over, and the sooner commenters on MW realize it the better. Too bad but perhaps the loss might wake up enough people to the fact that if... more... - Danaa
If you want those from among the majority of commenters on MW who are jewish (and I maintain - without proof, of course) that they are, whether people like it or not, the forum or the FF thread has to be started and run by someone jewish. That's just the way it is. otherwise they won't come. - Danaa
Which thread is the one where most complaints about the new MW are lodged? any in particular? - Danaa
WJones, a slow death indeed. They are trying to strangle the comments, reducing them to a trickle. I believe this is deliberate. - Danaa
If many other commentors had a serious urge to talk more than what is offered, some of them they would have come to FF. We have advertised it enough. Danaa and Sean: put the MW FF URL in your MW Profile, like I did, in case you haven't already. That's how WeAreOne found us. - WJones
I don't know of many other forums about the IP Issue besides MW on FF and the MW Comment Section. I PMed Sean and Chu about one Section that I've frequented on a Christan Forum that has discussed it. - WJones
((WJones, a slow death indeed. They are trying to strangle the comments, reducing them to a trickle. I believe this is deliberate.)) Seafoid likes the Comments Section. His writings are fun often. - WJones
I thought Hostage was complaining about the Comments Section because I was discussing Chomsky so much with him. But then he said that the killing of the Comments Section was actually a main factor in him wanting to leave. - WJones
I know there are liberals who complain about the Comments Section, but I think that they probably feel this way not just about the Comments, but about much of the site too. After all, L.Proyect thought that Annie was being antisemitic in the comments , and yet that Phil allows the Comments section to continue to be so. Yet Annie herself is a regular writer on MW, so it's not really just the Comment Section that must bother them. - WJones
One weird phenomenon is how some people like MJR can be so outspoken on the issue and yet claim that Ali A. is racist just because Ali A uses the word "Zionists" in his criticisms of them. - WJones
The most likely explanation is that Phil wants open discussion about many sides of the issue, but the site is under strong emotional and verbal pressure from Israeli nationalists. So a few of the other editors are taking steps to gradually wind down the comments section. The main question is whether they will end it altogether. There is not much more they can do to kill it. It seems... more... - WJones
I do not like the new format ....it doesnt 'pop' any headlines and its too much trouble to go to the different sections for articles. I think maybe Jones is right and they are winding down the comments. I liked the ascending list of artilces..it was more timely and you could see what was new .....and I liked the recent comments appearing in the right hand column because there are some... more... - American
WJones, American, Sean, check my comment under the "New Comments" thread - in an answer to keith. I was trying to put it out there, in case more people were interested in finding an alternative forum. The comment did not sit in moderation too long, BTW. My suspicion is that most commenters may simply not want to take the trouble looking elsewhere, or coming here. Yet, people who comment... more... - Danaa
I also think that people may simply be afraid of becoming too involved or bogged down in forums. On MW one can cut and run as one wishes. But if one were involved in bringing out some other medium, there's implied responsibility to stay involved. So people worry - what am I getting myself into, and all that. - Danaa
To close, and to entertain, here is my idea of the three elements that underle all human action or lack thereof: everything is an interplay between inertia, fear and intention. Intention correlates with ambition, greed etc - ie all that moves one forward (cf hooray for change!), fear is what holds one back and/or causes the human to retreat in the face of challenges/obstacles/walls (Ie,... more... - Danaa
Ok, so my idea of all causes for human action (and Sean, I'm sure will appraise me of just how unoriginal I am....) needs to be modified slightly to add another dimension - a fourth axis. For lack of a better word I'll call it charity. That is the impetus to act in ways that are in the interest of the larger collective, sometimes even to the detriment of one's own interests. We know... more... - Danaa
<<Feed-back please (assuming the thread doesn’t freeze)?>> That thread is going to freeze like an apple in an ice box. - WJones
<< the highlight is just a weak, urine yellow>>~ Marc B. ______________ Maybe Marc is using a Mac or some other computer settings, but I am seeing nothing even with my face inches away from my screen. - WJones
Guess what - the thread is still open to replies. Is it my imagination or are the threads open longer? I just posted a reply on something that's already 4 days old. Shhh.....don't tell anyone... - Danaa
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Israel’s information iron dome - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
It is widely assumed that a free press should report accurate and relevant information to the population, and act as ‘watchdog’ of power in the name of public interest. The reporting of secret government surveillance programs leaked by Edward Snowden rekindled a debate in the U.S. concerning the role of the free press, and the
This is a great article. Huge amount of work. Much appreciated! will be very valuable as reference too. - Danaa
Sean McBride
tree and ritzl have complained that describing Hillary Clinton as a "war harpy" and "battleaxe" is offensive to all women
See the discussion and debate here: "Hillary Clinton just lost the White House in Gaza — same way she lost it in Iraq the last time" http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - Sean McBride
The claim that describing Hillary Clinton as a "war harpy" demeans all women doesn't make sense to me -- tree and ritzl missed the point of the deliberate language here and the main issue in play: the hijacking of the women's movement by feminist Zionists (who are also liberal Zionists). But I am willing to listen to opposing views from others -- especially women -- on the subject.... more... - Sean McBride
This could have been a fascinating and enlightening discussion on Mondoweiss, but once again slow moderation and the closing of the thread killed the dialogue. - Sean McBride
One can pursue complex exchanges here on Friendfeed in 30 minutes that may require *days* to develop on Mondoweiss -- presuming that one can develop them at all. - Sean McBride
Here is Justin Raimondo using the forbidden language yesterday on Antiwar.com: - Sean McBride
"ISIS: Made in Washington, Riyadh – and Tel Aviv" http://original.antiwar.com/justin... - Sean McBride
"The Sunni Turn took a fateful turn when the Three Harpies of the Apocalypse – Hillary, Susan Rice, and now UN ambassador Samantha Power – hectored Obama into pursuing regime change in Libya. In this case the US and its NATO allies acted as the Islamist militia’s air force while supplying them with arms on the ground and diplomatic support internationally." - Sean McBride
What astonished me was that tree and ritzl seemed to be more upset by the use of the term "war harpy" than they were by the support of Hillary Clinton, Samantha Power, Susan Rice and many other liberal Zionists for Israel's slaughter of hundreds of children in Gaza. Wow. - Sean McBride
Opinion in that thread is equally divided between those who condemn and those who support that language. But the debate barely got off the ground -- the key points and issues were left hanging. - Sean McBride
A key point I made: the views of liberal Zionists (and feminist Zionists) on Mideast politics are indistinguishable from those of ultra-right-wing Christian Zionists like Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. Tree and ritzl still haven't addressed that issue. - Sean McBride
If Danaa and weareone are also offended by that language, I would certainly pay close and sensitive attention to their concerns and possibly change my position. - Sean McBride
Using tree's and ritzl's logic, we would have to expunge dozens or hundreds of gender-specific common words from the English lexicon that continue to be used by both men and women to appropriately characterize *some* men and women in negative ways. We would definitely have to clean up Shakespeare, who viewed neither men nor women as monolithic groups. - Sean McBride
here's a solution - call her/him Billary-Clinton. I know a lot of women who backed out of the Hillary nomination to vote for Obama. If you had you're vote set on Hillary, but saw her ways during the 2008 campaign (she lost her the democratic primary all by herself) why would they come back to the table again? Sure they can listen to her, but there must be a better contender for... more... - Chu_
The intensity and spontaneity with which Hillary Clinton blatts out warmongering language indicates that this is who she really is -- a bloodthirsty neocon. Why are so many supposedly liberal women supporting her? - Sean McBride
Billary became the new money, with the help of aiding Zionism and it's pro-militant neoconservatism - even pardoning Marc Rich. Joe Klein later admitted to writing 'Primary Colors', which was a negative portrayal of the two of them in the 1992 campaign. They still have the faint whiff off shameless opportunists, and the data collected on them is immense. Hillary's problem is that the... more... - Chu_
'' tree and ritzl have complained that describing Hillary Clinton as a "war harpy" and "battleaxe" is offensive to all women''....OMG..please, not more pc identity politics.! - American
had to report this greenwald post since it speaks to this issue: "“Hillary is banal, corrupted, drained of vibrancy and passion. I mean, she’s been around forever, the Clinton circle. She’s a fucking hawk and like a neocon, practically. She’s surrounded by all these sleazy money types who are just corrupting everything everywhere. But she’s going to be the first female president, and... more... - Chu_
Even my wife calls Hillary a 'war hag' which is the same as saying 'harpy'....and she'd be the first to tell feminist to stuff their whining and act like real women, not little girls. - American
"War hag" works. Women themselves often use gender-based derogatory terms *when appropriate* and with regard to *individuals*. They are not attacking men or women in general. - Sean McBride
People who become too engrossed in rigid identity politics tend to shave off quite a few points from their IQ. It is impossible to pursue a reasonable and reality-based discussion with them. They're fanatics. The universe revolves around offenses to their group identity. - Sean McBride
I've never been called sexist, but I have no problem calling hillary anything that seems fitting. She's earned her reputation. And funny how she stabbed Obama in the back in the recent interview about the decision not to intervene during the early stages of the Syrian civil war. That's bad politics, period. But the Clintons are a dirty pair of muddy catfish. - "She called the deaths of civilians, including Palestinian children, "dreadful," but said, "Ultimately the responsibility rests with Hamas."" - Chu_
I take my clues from my wife on other females....she's one of those Steel Magnolias.....iron hand in velvet glove and all that.....she says if you have to play the female card (or any other gender card) as a defense or to win then you arent smart or tough enough for the job. Smart women ignore the gender jabs so as to not come across as a whiny female..which is what they comes across as if they use it as a defense or charge against their opponant. It doesn t help them except with other gender issue females. - American
Well, I don't usually condone name calling, but in this case that actual definition seems to be quite fitting :))........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Greek mythology and Roman mythology, a harpy (plural harpies, Greek: ἅρπυια,[1] harpyia, pronounced [hárpuja]; Latin: harpeia) was a female monster in the form of a bird with a human face. They steal food from their victims... more... - weareone
weareone -- "harpy" is one of the most mythologically resonant images in world literature -- and it is assuredly not referring to women as a group or class. William Shakespeare often used the term "strumpet" -- http://www.rhymezone.com/r... -- and he also painted portraits of the most noble and admirable women of all time. Intelligent people understand that there... more... - Sean McBride
Yes -- there are misogynists out there who often use language as a weapon to attack women as a group -- that of course must be acknowledged at the beginning of any discussion on this topic. We all condemn that behavior. The word "bitch" flows much too freely in contemporary American popular culture in my opinion. - Sean McBride
But if the words "harpy" and "battleaxe" generate too much emotion, I am willing to toss them out. There are highly effective ways to criticize Hillary Clinton, Samantha Power, Susan Rice and Madeleine Albright which rely only on gender-neutral terms. What I do think needs to be discussed, however, is the degree to which Zionism has hijacked feminism and the women's movement -- just as it has hijacked so many other movements and subverted their positive values. - Sean McBride
When I used those two terms, I was trying to focus on the *irony* of some supposedly progressive feminists rushing to the defense of the mass murder of women and children by Israeli and neoconservative policies. Identity group zealots don't do irony -- it's lost on them. - Sean McBride
I agree, Sean. I don't see any reason to use derogatory terms or resort to personal insults in order state an opinion. I usually withdraw from discussions when that begins to occur. - weareone
Golda Meir was a proud Battle Axe. - Chu_
As was Margaret Thatcher. - Sean McBride
I can't wait for the next 2 years of Clinton triangulation. Should be interesting how they achieve their objectives. - Chu_
With regard to <<the degree to which Zionism has hijacked feminism and the women's movement -- just as it has hijacked so many other movements>>, I doubt that I'd be able to make any contribution to a discussion on Zionism at this point. :) - weareone
For the record, I have no objection whatsoever to describing Hillary as "war harpy" since I think the name fits. Basically, someone like her conjures the same imagery that margaret Thatcher did - like a preying manthis using its "plant status" to trick its prey, there are females drafted by the war mongers - precisely because they are females - to better co-opt the female side of the population so they will not object too strenuously to whatever blood shed is being advocated. - Danaa
Were I to participate in these debates, which I don't because of the shortened threads, I would point out that male neocons are often referred to as "rapists" and "monsters". Yet, is there an uprising among the male population against the gender specific maligning, presumably in the name of all men? - Danaa
I rather like tree - almost in everything she says I find virtue. It's just that females have become too conditioned to have some kind of "gender empathy" sometimes to the exclusion of "human empathy". I can't even begin to tell you how often I had to correct women who, upon meeting me, assumed that somehow we might all be on the same page, just because some man somewhere was in the... more... - Danaa
I think Hillary's 'wipe Iran off the map' was a turning point, and the final nail in her campaign coffin. It's something that was hardly presidential, but she seemed to be willing to say it because more often the media doesn't challenge pro-Israel sloganeering. She was burned and recall how long it took her to accept defeat from Obama. All those pro-Hillary groups hoping her campaign... more... - Chu_
Hillary actually used the words >>TOTALLY OBLITERATE<< -- that's a direct quote. That is not the kind of language one hears from responsible American political leaders. - Sean McBride
I'd say Tree makes sense, her comments are usually well thought out. I think she may be reluctant to overuse a term like BattleAxe in the public sphere, as it may be become commonplace. But Hillary earned that title, it's not something you label any old gal. - Chu_
Totally Obliterate > Holocaust , Genocide. (and liberals defended her at the time.) outsiders from the US hear this and think they're all f'king mad Yankees... - Chu_
Danaa -- great set of comments on language and gender issues -- I wish you had been able to post them on that Mondoweiss thread before it was closed -- this is a complex topic that requires many exchanges to sort out and make sense of. (I also enjoy and agree with most of tree's comments.) - Sean McBride
A sidenote on language and the spelling of "battleaxe" -- I often use [Google Fight http://www.googlefight.com] to resolve these issues: 1. "battle axe" 194,000 hits 2. "battle-axe" 194,000 hits 3. "battleaxe" 144,000 hits -- take your pick, I guess. - Sean McBride
Sean, my thoughts on these "gender vs human" issues are best put together in the form of a post, I think. Alas, I'll have to put them forth in a blog - because MW is not quite the right place for this - kind of O/T. I think I'll have one up and running in about a week - nothing fancy, just a basic platform to hash over some things that may be peripheral to I/P, yet are somehow relevant.... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- be sure to alert us here when you get that project up and running -- I look forward to reading your thoughts. Now that I think about it, feminist and gender issues with regard to Israel, Zionism and the I/P conflict are a huge and important topic -- there is so much to explore. - Sean McBride
My theme BTW on "women are first human and then women" is that like their male human counterparts, women are no better - and no worse - in being able to handle power, wealth and political influence. It's a human disease - the inability to handle "top dog" status. It will corrupt most, with just a few able to transcend it. Power, Nuland and Clinton act like shills for the empire just as... more... - Danaa
I'm am thinking now, after reflecting for a few days, that, for myself, avoiding hot-button terms that might offend women like tree and ritzl might be a good choice -- I don't want to get distracted and diverted from more important and substantive issues that are best approached in a diplomatic way. (My natural instinct in all situations is to fight for free speech -- that's how I am wired -- that is one of my hot buttons.) - Sean McBride
So Sean, what's a less inflammatory expression that could stand for "harpy" and not offend some? my linguistically limited brain is failing to deliver....how about you great English speakers lend a hand here? - Danaa
Male equivalent to harpies? The first words that come to mind are bullies, thugs, gangsters, goons, gorillas -- I need to think about that. Regarding women as being no better and no worse than men in the exercise of power -- that's probably the way it is. But many of us were hoping that women in positions of political leadership would bring more compassion, empathy and kindness to human affairs than testosterone-fueled males -- that was probably too much to ask. - Sean McBride
Rand Paul referred to Hillary as a "war hawk" the other day -- that may serve. Not as inflammatory as "war harpy" -- but it makes the point. A hawk can be male or female. - Sean McBride
I like "war hawk". It's more gender neutral. Rand paul was smart to use that term. probably "harpy" is a term people reach for when they want to express disgust with the fact that a woman should advocate blood and gore, exploiting the image of her gender as the "softer sex" to shill for something that's everything other than "soft". I would put justin raymondo in this territory. The one... more... - Danaa
I am going for "war hawk" or simply "hawk" for now -- many people are unable to deconstruct the word "harpy" with as much nuance and depth as you are (you instantly got the point that Raimondo was trying to make). So better to avoid that pothole in most cases. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Has everyone been able to log in successfully to the new Mondoweiss?
"Most Recent 100 Mondoweiss Comments" is still not available. - Sean McBride
I doubt that feature or the scroll of recent comments that was practically frozen on the old site, will return. The emphasis is on de-emphasizing comments. - Danaa
I can't say I like the new design very much. It's too standard - like in all the other group blogs I frequent. that went "professional". The old design was much cleaner. But hey web site designers need to make a living, don't they? The part I especially dislike is the grouping of posts under "headings": US politics, I/P, Activism. That's it. Nothing about the world - does it even exist? - Danaa
Anyways, I think they should have a subject heading called "Jewish Angst", since the Lib Zios lamentations have a daily representation. Ellis can fit under that. - Danaa
Well, perhaps it's work in progress, and they intend to enlarge the subjects. - Danaa
I am going to give it a week or two to see how the new design shakes out. - Sean McBride
In any case, expect the comment section to shrivel into invisibility even more than it has. And no, you won't drive traffic here because that's not what people want. The only solution is to have a true mirror site that's run like a forum. Unfortunately, the good forum formats cost money to run and do require moderation. So it would have to be a labor of love for someone, and I don't see that happening. - Danaa
What people need to figure out is that the Internet is a multipolar and multidirectional platform which permits users to communicate freely in whatever combinations they like. Apparently that is a cognitive hurdle much too steep for many to surmount. They are comfortable being fenced in by one authority or another. - Sean McBride
Sean, I think dissing people for failing to communicate in a "catch all you can" manner is counterproductive. last I noted we still interact and communicate with humans. It therefore helps to try and figure out how to access the human comfort zone if conversations are to flow freely. Fact is, MW has a lot of valuable contributions from many sources. They prefer to concentrate on the I/P... more... - Danaa
Here's a fact: there are many posts coming from Palestinians. The blog feels it's important to give them a voice, and believe that there are many readers who come to read specifically those voices. Yet, the total number of comments on those posts is always much smaller than on the posts that address jewish angst. - Danaa
Ergo, most commenters are more interested in jewish angst airing. That's where the MW commentariat is. Just look at how many comments every piece on Liberal Zios pulling out hair (what's left thereof) - that's obviously what they want to converse about. Does that leave a whole bunch of interested parties out? sure it does. But this is not their blog so they can interject of Jews,... more... - Danaa
back to your comment Sean - instead of putting people down for not figuring out the internet, we need to accept that people gravitate to their own comfort zones. The commenters are comfortable on MW, and that's a fact. may be they like the bull pen. May be they don't want to spend time swatting flies. We can talk about why people are the way they are, but that does not change the way they are. - Danaa
Danaa -- I am not "dissing" them -- just pointing out that many Internet early adopters are easily leapfrogging over traditional publication models and communicating with one another in creative ways. This more flexible style of building communities of interest will eventually catch on in the world at large. - Sean McBride
One thing I noticed on MW comments: a few people put on thoughts and feed-back on whatever the post topic is. Some cheer and compliment (always a good thing) -whatever the take is. Others take issue with one point or another. But the conversation only really gets going when one of the zios pops in, like JeffB, or Hophmi or jon s. Conclusion? that's what many commenter-people really want... more... - Danaa
Sean, again - most people DON'T WANT creative new ways to debate. They want to rant, to vent and to have a little brawl. And they most certainly don't want to put in the work needed to maintain a blog or a forum or else they would do just that. Like-minded people who are on the same page don't need to hash over the same points since they already agree. - Danaa
Most people gradually adopt creative new ways to communicate (some much more slowly than others) -- that is why Internet technologies for doing just that have evolved so rapidly over the last few decades -- and will continue to evolve. I recall some people arguing at their founding that Facebook, Twitter and Instagram would never take off. - Sean McBride
i try to comment on the article and converse if there's a good topic with someone in comments. I occassionaly take the low road to trash some of the trolls - often they're so f'ing stupid, I feel I have to say something to them. Jon S always complains that is is over moderated, but good, because he is a complete annoyance and phony. - Chu_
Your issue Sean is with the fundamental trait of humans: inertia. You will not succeed in battling it since you are one and they are Billions. Some people care more than they are lazy. Those people start blogs and run forums. The rest who show up for the most part just want a comfort zone where others of similar viewpoints come to frequent the joint. This bar "where everyone knows your... more... - Danaa
Chu, you are one of the ones who do that - and kudos to you for being so well focused. I can count another 20 (who come and go over time). Can I count to 50? not sure. - Danaa
Danaa -- haimish? - Sean McBride
Seafoid digs at some, but stays focused on how Israel is collapsing morally. Shingo loves to trash trolls, and he's good at it. I get a laugh reading his stuff occasionally. - Chu_
Danaa -- many of the most influential conversations on many topics are now going on on Twitter -- by independent minds playing on a level playing field, with no central control. This is where many stories and memes break first. The trick is in knowing which feeds to follow. - Sean McBride
Sean, facebook and Twitter succeeded as did smart phones precisely because they cater to human reluctance to learn and do things in depth. Much has been said about the shallowness of facebook and it's all true. It's a place to hang out and show your pictures and check out your friends' pictures, that's all. It's also an advertisement for business or a hobby or an occupation - get a... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter are simply tools -- one can use them however you will. Many of the best minds on the planet are now on Twitter -- and they are bouncing interesting ideas and energy off one another with speed and force. Think of Twitter as the world's ultimate pinball machine. - Sean McBride
There are no "conversations" on Twitter. There is dissing, ranting, blog post advertising, opinionating and spitball matches. That's not conversation. Can't have one in 100 words. You can only say what your opinion is and perhaps try and direct traffic to a post you like. That's all. I have had a few conversations on facebook about stuff, with emphasis on "few". Social media are all... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- there are interesting conversations on Twitter -- you just haven't managed to uncover them -- it's a huge space. And Twitter conversations often migrate to other platforms -- it's all very fluid. - Sean McBride
just because everyone has a twitter and a facebook doesn't mean they use these media to communicate on any depth. I used facebook to get in contact with some people, but then what communications we had was done through e mail. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc. act well as "pings". Ways to say - hello, you still there? what's up? how are the cats? - Danaa
Danaa -- these are the Twitter feeds I follow: https://twitter.com/seanmcb... Do these strike you as shallow people? Quite a few of them are global thought leaders. Who have you been following on Twitter? - Sean McBride
I had zero interesting conversation on Twitter, as in "none". I asked for links and got them. That's all. I used it to rant against these Hollywood petition petty-coaters, venting my "true" opinions. one among many. Got to call them idiots and a few other precious names. That' not a conversation. Also my eyes just swim over the Twiter posts. I glance, move on, lose interest if nothin of... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- by all means use the tools that feel most comfortable to you. We should all do that. There are many ways to go about interacting with the world's information. - Sean McBride
Clue - look at these posts I just made here. can you tell Twitter is not my thing? does anyone want to keep up with this kind of torrent? kind of doubt it. But I need practice typing and stringing together sentences so I do that here. Suits me fine. Doesn't suit others, evidently. What else is new? I'm the same in real life - always trying to get deep conversations going at cocktail... more... - Danaa
thanks for the opportunity to lay out some of my thoughts simply. There, I just found another good use for social media - practice simplicity. Gotta love it. maybe some day I'll graduate from simplicty pre-school. Will throw party. Invite multitudes. Twit with all, wings aflutter. Need caterer! - Danaa
Right on cue, here comes pepsi. All suited up for Twittering. Alas, he just does not inspire.....but you do Sean. I really enjoy dumping on social media with you. Always making me think of some new reason I can't abide. Me, the anti-dude. - Danaa
Ba-bye pepsi. Good of you to drop in....keep safe! - Danaa
Danaa -- do any items on the first ten screens here strike you as interesting? https://twitter.com/search... What would be a more efficient method for encountering them? (It takes me less than 15 seconds to scan 10 screens of high-quality tweets -- and most of these are high-quality by design, by the deployment of smart algorithms to sort them to the top of the queue.) - Sean McBride
My biggest problem is that there is no clean, daily list of the recent news stories for the last three days on MW. That would be very basic. It's getting to the point where FF is a better list of MW stories than MW's page is. What is going on? - WJones
WJ -- I originally set up MWFF for myself because I wanted a nice clean and efficient interface for tracking the flow of new articles on MW. - Sean McBride
The more I comment in parallel on both MW and MWFF, the more I appreciate Friendfeed as a discussion interface. - Sean McBride
I am afraid I am going to be relying more on FF for MW stories. That's because it isn't clear to me how to check for new stories of the day - all the stories - on MW directly. - WJones
I saw the tree comment. Does calling Hillary a harpie demean all women? She's not your average woman, so a mythological being seems quite apt. - Chu_
Regarding tree's and ritzl's effort to police the English language, pursue the topic in this thread: https://friendfeed.com/mondowe... - Sean McBride
American
'' As an essentialist it is clear that Israeli barbarism, the Nakba, the Holodomor, the Zio-driven neocon movement and even the crimes committed by the Yiddish speaking International Brigade at the time of the Spanish Civil war must be examined in the light of Jewish goy hatred, Jewish supremacy and the unique sense of Jewish righteousness inextricably intertwined with Jewish self-love. - American
'' Once Israeli politics are viewed within the framework of Jewishness, every Israeli war crime and cabinet decision is predictable. Moreover, if self-destruction and the Shoah are embedded within Jewish cultural DNA, it is impossible to avoid the devastating conclusion that what Israel is doing in publicly targeting a helpless civilian population is a repetition of the way in which Jews have managed to bring total disasters upon themselves. - American
That Israel and Zionism are a problem and product of Jewish 'culture'....specifically their victimhood and choseness beliefs....is undeniable imo. There is not logical way to imagine that a group of people could be at the core of or the sujbject of conflicts century after century after century without some cause. - American
Atzmon mentions MW in this article and I think MW is a good example of 'presenting jewish culutre' ..as one way....while denying or pretending the bad part of that culture doesnt exist. Or pretends the bad part in the culture is only a 'current abberation', not an intergral part of the culture. - American
And perhaps the biggest part of the mystery of the jewish brain is that while MW, ellis and others do this---the bad part still comes thru----their vision of themselves as innocent victims is still there, their vision of themselves as a 'group' of higher moral creatures is still there, their self love as in teaching every child in the world about their jewish suffering in the holocaust,... more... - American
How do you feel about other ethnic cultures? -- Arab, Chinese, Japanese, German, French, Korean, Italian, British, etc.? - Sean McBride
Maybe this latest Gaza slaughter is making a few question their jewish moral myths---but they have a long long way to go to the truth of what jewish culture has to do with past and current jewish history. - American
Other ethnic cultures are not currently under discussion here---when they are I will address them. Feel free to put up a subject on the parts of Islamic or Arab culture that led to ISIS if you want to discuss another culture. - American
'Maybe this latest Gaza slaughter is making a few question their jewish moral myths' -and maybe Jews arising as a global power network, we are getting a window into what the future may look like. So far I see dark skies ahead. Seriously, when are they going the build the Third Temple (and destroy the Al-Asqua Mosque? There's even a fund raiser online for it. 45k hoping to reach 100k https://www.indiegogo.com/project... - Chu_
Many ethnic cultures are in play in contemporary global and American politics -- anyone who is truly curious about the world is paying attention to all of them. - Sean McBride
temple construction comments section: (messianic bible thumpers gone wild) https://www.indiegogo.com/project... CHECK the contributor's list. from 18$ to 50,000$ (18$ is a mitzvah! 54$ a High Priest Garments photo) - Chu_
If there's a third temple, does this mean animal sacrifice? PETA and ASPCA are going to be labled anti-semites. Get ready animal rights groups. you've been warned! - Chu_
American makes some good points here. The bad parts are there in the core of what's called Jewish "culture", though they are rarely stated (except in israel where they are shouted from the roof-tops). Sean himself made that argument to Mooser - that zionism was - Danaa
inherent in the "core values". Mooser objected strenuously probably because he himself feels he shed that part so why should he be made to offer penance for that of which he feels not guilty? - Danaa
To me, the trouble - the cognitive dissonance within the jewish culture - is there in large part because of tribalism. In this sense, we are likely to see similar dynamics playing out in other religions and cultures. The Indian one for example, or the Chinese. Those too believe in their own inherent superiority though they don't call it choseness. The difference is that the Chinese and... more... - Danaa
The conflict between tribal values, which often include cultural outlook and allegiance, and the universal values that are part of the "melting pot" concept is always there in America. Diversity is prized but a certain homogeneity is expected. If jewish people were like any other immigrant group in America and if Israel didn't exist, there would still be this tension, but it would be... more... - Danaa
American made another good allusion, though this is probably not the place for it. Islam does offer a reasonably good analogy - at least on one level. Radical jihadism is indeed an inherent "core" value in Islam. IT can be and has been interpreted more spiritually by many muslim communities (indeed the vast majority) but for those who want some kind of a fundamentalist entity, be it a... more... - Danaa
pepsi, please read my posts to the end - -if you would - I can't always make my arguments through one-liners. - Danaa
pepsi, if you are going to hurl silly things at me like "covering for Mooser", then I can't converse with you, can I? I graduated from kindergarten sometime ago (whether successfully or not is another story....) and the battle of the spit-balls was never one of my favorites. - Danaa
have a normal dialogue, even if it's confrontational, pepsi. The shots you make always seem to get deleted, so try and dialogue. but maybe sean is not going to let that happen. - Chu_
Amer:"That Israel and Zionism are a problem and product of Jewish 'culture'....specifically their victimhood and choseness beliefs....is undeniable imo." - I agree. and Jewishness seems to be higher than Judaism & Zionism- (the old vs new stuff is getting stale) Jewishness has to account for the mess of their Jewish state without blaming Europe or world history at this point in time,... more... - Chu_
pepsi - you are just too boring. Ever heard of something called "substance"? you never make a point, just hurls silly comments, though you did graduate to first grade, I see. Your comments should be deleted due to pointlessness - it's white noise. - Danaa
Danaa -- my impression is that pepsi is mentally ill in much the same way that "Jason Beck" is mentally ill. One should avoid any encounters with them at all. No sane person keeps invading a social space in which he is unwanted. - Sean McBride
'' Many ethnic cultures are in play in contemporary global and American politics -- anyone who is truly curious about the world is paying attention to all of them. - Sean McBride).......I dont think you need to worry about our intellectual curiousity. And I dont think you dont need to concern yourself with all the ethnic cultures in the world until and unless they become a problem for... more... - American
American -- the Chinese have threatened to bury us economically, the North Koreans have threatened to nuke us, many Muslims have threatened to destroy us, Christian fundamentalists are planning to impose an authoritarian biblical regime on us, etc. -- apparently you don't think these are significant factors for Americans to take into account? Jews are the only strategic factor of... more... - Sean McBride
I agree with Chu that's its going hell. For 10 years I have been saying Israel is going to get worse and worse and it has. Mooser wrote the other day that it appears to him that Jewish leaders and a lot of Jews believe that they are some how 'failure proof" now....I have that impression also..and I see it as one of the delusions that Zionism has inspired. So I think Israel will go for... more... - American
I agree that all key indicators suggest that Israel will move towards greater extremism in the future, trying to drag the United States along with it. But if we overfocus on Israel, we may be blindsided by other issues of equal or even greater importance. - Sean McBride
I am fairly certain that I could get 90% of people to agree with me that one country whose goverment is ruled by 'foreign interest, not its own interest' in making critical decisons for that country in a critical part of the world---is a bigger threat to that country than the China economic threat or the Muslim radical threat or the christian fundy threat. - American
There is no bigger issue for a nation than having your government run by people who make decisions based on what is good for some other country...not their own. I suggest you review the Kissinger episode with Russia where the lobby got congress to go against his agreement with Russia on some core agreements very favorable to the US interest because they wanted hold Russia's feet to the... more... - American
Sean, I would suggest that if you to ''look at the whole world' in regard to 'ethnics' you should read Amy Chau's "World on Fire". Its billed as case against globalization and exporting democractic free markets around the world. Except Chau 'misnames' democratic free markets----which should be called spreading 'elite capitalism'. She writes about minority ethnics who control the wealth... more... - American
Sean, there's absolutely no doubt that Israel is a far more dangerous entity than the ones you brought up as example - what Fundamentalists in China? 1000 kooks? is China not dealing with them? as for North korea, what are they doing other than self-defense? where is the North Korean lobby in the US? what has China done to totally subvert US foreign policy> seems to me that the... more... - Danaa
I am actually with American on this. I do believe America is under attack - from within. I could care less who exactly are the members of the hostile group that's undermining presidents and congress and possibly Fed Reserve too, for all I know. Whoever it is, and obviously jews are part of that group, are allied with a foreign country, Israel, which sees establishment of a Greater... more... - Danaa
Gilad Atzmon is simply pointing out a key element that makes such psychopathology possible - it's not just that we are dealing with a tribe here, but that the tribe, as you often say, has gone messianic, and is getting closer and closer to the tip-off point. American is asking some good questions - what way is there to put this evil ginnie back into the bottle? - Danaa
Danaa, there is a guy you would like to hear (or read) if you havent---Reza Aslan. I am listening to him now on c-span book review. Brilliant job of exposing all the contradictions in every religion and separating religious myth from actual history and explaining politics of religion. He can tear up the 'literalist' who take their religious bibles and tomes literally. Brilliant guy who doesnt do myths and bs. - American
Where did I hear this name, American? I think he wrote a book fairly recently, right? I'll check him out. - Danaa
Danna he wrote 'Zealot' and 'No God but God'...here is a link to videos of several interviews with him......http://www.booktv.org/search... one I saw last night was evidently a re run of one of these. - American
I dont have time to play thru them all right now but think the one last night was the one on religion of Islam and the politics of it. He is a very sharp 'analyst' imo..a religious scholar 'unhampered' by religion.....very rare. His analysis of radical Islam was illuminating.....he says in their minds its a 'cosmic battle' of good against evil....that they dont have any ' practical... more... - American
Aslan said also and I think I heard him correctly...that the only political solution to radical in Islam is to defeat the violent ones any time they appear while politically accepting and blostering the real or moderate Islam on the world stage. - American
I read Reza Aslan's "Zealot" a few months ago -- in fact, the Kindle edition is still sitting on my smartphone. Highly recommended. - Sean McBride
He also touched on radical jewishness or zionsim but I only caught part of that. The difference I see in zionism and radical Islam is first what they are based on----for radical Islam it is a ' never ending battle against what they consider 'evil'--for jewish zionism it is a never ending battle against the world as 'enemies of jews.' The other difference is radical Islam has peverted... more... - American
The between the rock and hard place of both radical islam and zionism as I see it is that if you dont 'put them down' they grow and attract others....if you do put them down it can also attract others to fight against being put down. So I think it becomes a 'management problem'.....you have to first put the radicals of Islam and zionism down to stop tbeir slaugthering of others. Then... more... - American
American, thank you very much for this article. I researched a little further because I was interested in Atzmon's analysis of the perspective of those who consider themselves "progressive Jews," and found this comment on his interview with an editor of MW :<< It seems to me that once again, I have failed to converse with a ‘progressive Jew.’ I guess that in spite of the openness ...... more... - weareone
<< I am increasingly certain that this gap cannot be bridged easily, if at all, for the tribal and universal are like water and oil>>............... This quote expresses it perfectly, imo. - weareone
"" I guess that the difficulties involved in resolving the tension between the universal and the tribal explains why so many progressive Jews prefer to operate in intellectual, ideological and political exclusive ‘Jews only’ cells where these questions are never raised, never asked, and never answered>> Atzmon).......I have asked and brought this up a hundred times on MW---that most... more... - American
<<).......I have asked and brought this up a hundred times on MW---that most Jews WILL NOT ask themselves the questions ABOUT THEMSELVES that actually matter. >>........ I agree, but I'm just wondering---then why keep asking the question? I'm asking sincerely, because it seems that most Jews are not willing to do that type of internal work. So if they choose tribalism over universalism,... more... - weareone
'' then why keep asking the question? ...wao) ...Out of frustration I guess. - American
Amy Chau's "World on Fire". - thanks. never read this. I didn't know Ethnic Chinese were in such great control of the Philiipines and Indonesian economies. [In the Philippines Chua explains, the Chinese Filipino is 1% of the population but controls 60% of the economy, with the result being envy and bitterness on the part of the majority against the Chinese minority—in other words, an... more... - Chu_
American, imo,this focus on the Jewish psyche distracts from truly important issues, such as Palestinian sovereignty and reclaiming US sovereignty. The success of these sovereignty movements is not dependent upon Jews understanding or "getting it." - weareone
wao)...yea it does distract. And you're right, their getting it wont have anything to do with ending I/P. I think the reason we go off into discussions of the jewish psyche is because 99% of what we see and read re israel by Jews--who are the ones who write about it most---is about themselves and Jewishness re I/P. - American
Exactly! I now make a conscious attempt to obtain information from sites that provide many different perspectives or visit multiple sites with different focuses. It takes a little more time, but it has been well worth it. - weareone
Sean McBride
Hollywood stars sign petition in support of Israel - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz - http://www.haaretz.com/news...
Hollywood stars sign petition in support of Israel - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz
"Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, Minnie Driver and Kelsey Grammer among celebrities who voiced their criticism against the "singling out" of Israel during Gaza war." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"The CCFP, whose members range from former NBC Entertainment co-chair Ben Silverman to Jody Gerson, co-president of Sony/ATV Music Publishing, are major power brokers in Hollywood who have resisted rallying its star-studded fleet for public statements until now. Rather, as Operation Protective Edge drew slews of celebrities expressing political views on social media, CCFP focused its energy on what it describes as "educating" Israel’s outspoken critics." - Sean McBride
"The organization successfully campaigned to have Rihanna withdraw her “Free Palestine” Instagram photo and Selena Gomez to recant a similar post. Other attempts didn’t elicit the same response. Cruz and Barden’s “clarification” reinforced their opposition to Israel’s military and wasn’t deemed a retraction. They merely eschewed being labeled anti-Semitic." - Sean McBride
"This campaign, started no doubt amidst criticism that Hollywood’s Israel supporters had stayed silent amidst growing pro-Palestinian support, rapidly took off as CCFP’s advisory board members, along with other prominent industry leaders, began reaching out to their friends and associates." - Sean McBride
"“We are heartened to have received such an enormous response from within the industry -- from artists to producers, agents, attorneys, managers, and industry executives -- which is gratifying especially as we witness the disturbing growth of anti-Semitism around the globe. We fully expect the list of signatories to continue to grow," says David Renzer, CCFP co-founder and chairman of... more... - Sean McBride
The operations of the Israel lobby (and the Jewish lobby) within Hollywood are being fully exposed to public view. - Sean McBride
Hollywood stars who *didn't* sign the petition may pay a price. - Sean McBride
I think we - as in those who are active - should start an on-line petition to boycott all the signers of this pathetic petition. Call them supporters of child murderers and fascist sympathizers and a few other names that stick. Then make sure to tell all friends and family and colleagues why you refuse to see their movies or idiotic award ceremonies. So where is the best place to get such a petition going? - Danaa
Here is the full list of signatories to date: http://www.creativecommunityfo... You would think that the creators and members of this organization would be greatly concerned that it is overwhelmingly Jewish -- and that many prominent non-Jews in Hollywood haven't joined them. CCFP gives the impression that Israel is increasingly isolated in the world. - Sean McBride
# some names that are *not* on the list 1. Al Pacino 2. Amy Adams 3. Angelina Jolie 4. Ben Affleck 5. Brad Pitt 6. Bradley Cooper 7. Cate Blanchett 8. Christian Bale 9. Denzel Washington 10. George Clooney 11. Gwyneth Paltrow 12. James Cameron 13. Jennifer Lawrence 14. Johnny Depp 15. Jude Law 16. Kate Winslet 17. Leonardo DiCaprio 18. Mark Wahlberg 19. Martin Scorsese 20. Matt Damon... more... - Sean McBride
>>Bill Maher<< *did* sign the petition. - Sean McBride
Danaa, here's one place to start a petition--https://www.change.org/start-a... Sean would be a much better resource for such things, but I would sign it and spread it. - weareone
petition - good idea. I think Hollywood and US Polticians are worse today than cast lead. embarrassing race to the bottom. - Chu_
Sean McBride
News from Ferguson has swamped Mideast news
There is some discussion on that topic going on here: https://friendfeed.com/us-poli... - Sean McBride
Gaza? What was that all about? - Sean McBride
It's all about Missouri now, not Israel. - Sean McBride
We need to connect the dots. There may be more similarities then differences. Quite possibly the same "wizards of oz" behind the scenes. - weareone
The mainstream media seems to flock to a new story like buzzards to a fresh carcass. The media headquarters of these new organizations determine what is news and what isn't news - they only need to coordinate among the Media Execs. And this ice bucket water challenge is practically the dumbest thing I've ever seen by the media and a real red herring if you want to see it that way. How... more... - Chu_
Not sure if this has been posted already. I apologize for repeating if it has. "The Shortest Distance between Palestine and Ferguson" http://www.counterpunch.org/2014... - weareone
thanks for the article. There are some parallels. both groups have been swept into the closet in a way. while many liberals want to believe the situation is improving in the US, it seems to get much worse in other locations. In NYC this last year, half of black men are unemployed. http://dailycaller.com/2013... - Chu_
the main difference is that Palestinians are refugees who lived in all the towns where modern day Israel exists. - Chu_
some points are coincidental as Yassin says, but the more I think about the 2 situations, the less similar they seem. - Chu_
You're welcome. Yes, you're right, Palestinians are "occupied" and technically there is no occupation in this country, but as I mentioned on another thread, the prison/industrial business has been likened to a new form of apartheid for blacks. - weareone
Here's the article I was looking for: "America's New Apartheid"..http://www.counterpunch.org/2014... - weareone
yeah, I agree. And many of the whites are headed for the prisons as well. This neo-feudalism is no joke. someone on FF (i cant find it!) just posted how bad it is. You get sent to prison because you didn't pay your debts, you lose everything, you start over with nothing. And it's happening right before our eyes. Congress is the willing partner to corporate wishes. None of them seem to... more... - Chu_
nyc is a great model for study. The stratosphere of rich and poor interaction everyday is incredible. Manhattan is like this kingdom, where the outlying areas are the surfs and peasants. Thanks for article. I'll read it later. - Chu_
National interest? you're right-not one. So we can't imo expect a solution from them. The answer will come through self-sufficiency, I believe. Another great article-- "The Globalists' Worst Nightmare- Self-Sufficiency:a universal solution to the globalist problem"--http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011... - weareone
Sorry, I had to correct the link. - weareone
No more articles, I promise. :) Very true about NYC and probably most other large cities in the country, but it's really evident in NYC with Wall St money ever present. - weareone
wearone, chu, the similarity I think is on the individual level, in the way untenable circumstances affect people - both the victims and the victimizers. Humans react in certain ways to conditions of enforced hopelessness, whether incarcerated by walls or by less visible structures. Some are enobled, some go down an aggressive 'acting out" path, some channel their anger through the... more... - Danaa
Good points, Danaa. - weareone
I think your analysis can be applied to many different situations and cultures- any really where there are oppressed and oppressor. Hopefully, as the world is becoming "smaller" thanks to instantaneous communication, the oppressed/victims will begin to realize that their situations are not really unique and begin to join forces. I think we're beginning to see this in support for Palestine. - weareone
w.a.o. I read America's New Apartheid. A lot of it I knew but it was good to see it summarized over the course of 30+ years. I didn't realize the Welfare Reform Act of 1996 has a provision to a lifetime ban on receiving welfare & food stamps, which only applies to drug offenders, and not to violent felons like murder or rapists. The entire crack/cocaine deal was always baffling. With... more... - Chu_
Hopefully were moving toward a more just system. I see the tide has definitely turned between white and black (in nyc).- strangely, it seemed to have accelerated somewhat after 9-11. There was no time to focus on the domestic conflicts, we now had another foreign threat at our shores. And now that the police state rolled into town with the Patriot Act, of course they'll use it to divide & conquer with the haves & have-nots. It's what were all seeing over the last decade. - Chu_
<<Meanwhile you get people like Robert Downey Jr. and Quentin Tarantino glorifying coke and/or heroin use. So warped.>> I agree. The film industry is complicit in many crimes, imo. Another similarity that's been mentioned on other threads-- many, if not most, police departments in the US are either trained/indoctrinated in Israel or in the US by Israelis. (Not sure about Ferguson). Similar tactics and disproportionate use of force are used against Palestinians. - weareone
Here's an article confirming Israel's relationship to Ferguson.-"Israel-trained police "occupy" Missouri after killing of black youth" Submitted by Rania Khalek on Fri, 08/15/2014 <<At least two of the four law enforcement agencies that were deployed in Ferguson up until Thursday evening — the St. Louis County Police Department and the St. Louis Police Department — received training... more... - weareone
w.a.o. - I can think of another example of corporate racketeering. The Haitian Pig. This pig could run wild and eat off the land. But then an outbreak occurred in the 1980's and USAID (with the help of the Haitian gov't) came in to exterminate every last pig. Now Haiti had to import fatter american swine, which required their own grain and feed and medical supplies, supplied from the... more... - Chu_
Thanks, Chu,. I wasn't aware of this but read a little about the the importance of this animal to Haiti. It made me remember that sometimes the simple things, like Gandhi's spinning wheels in India and the pig in Haiti, can not only contribute to a nation's economic independence, but can be symbols of prosperity and freedom. - weareone
The eradication of the creole pig, wiped out so much money of the Haitian people. Also if you're ever curious about more american corporate rigging, check out United Fruit Company. They have created wage slaves in Central America (banana republics) since the early 1900's. People in Central America have gotten the corporate shaft from the US. If S. America really transforms into a new center of influence, surely central Americans will look to S. America for a better model for their own survival. - Chu_
Yes, I'm aware of United Fruit Co. <<If S. America really transforms into a new center of influence, surely central Americans will look to S. America for a better model for their own survival>> I certainly hope so with the BRICS nations now launching financial alternatives to the IMF and World Bank. - weareone
Sean McBride
The Double Identity of an "Anti-Semitic" Commenter | Common Dreams (Lance Tapley) - http://www.commondreams.org/hambaco...
The Double Identity of an "Anti-Semitic" Commenter | Common Dreams (Lance Tapley)
"Smearing a Progressive Website to Support Israel" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Like many other news websites, Common Dreams has been plagued by inflammatory anti-Semitic comments following its stories. But on Common Dreams these posts have been so frequent and intense they have driven away donors from a nonprofit dependent on reader generosity." - Sean McBride
"A Common Dreams investigation has discovered that more than a thousand of these damaging comments over the past two years were written with a deceptive purpose by a Jewish Harvard graduate in his thirties who was irritated by the website's discussion of issues involving Israel." - Sean McBride
"His intricate campaign, which he has admitted to Common Dreams, included posting comments by a screen name, "JewishProgressive," whose purpose was to draw attention to and denounce the anti-Semitic comments that he had written under many other screen names." - Sean McBride
"The deception was many-layered. At one point he had one of his characters charge that the anti-Semitic comments and the criticism of the anti-Semitic comments must be written by "internet trolls who have been known to impersonate anti-Semites in order to then double-back and accuse others of supporting anti-Semitism"--exactly what he was doing. (Trolls are posters who foment discord.)" - Sean McBride
"The impersonation, this character wrote, must be part of an "elaborate Hasbara setup," referring to an Israeli international public-relations campaign. When Common Dreams finally confronted the man behind the deceptive posting, he denied that he himself was involved with Hasbara." - Sean McBride
"His posting on Common Dreams illustrates the susceptibility of website comment threads to massive manipulation. As another illustration, he even audaciously tricked the white-supremacist Vanguard News Network, posing as "DeShawn S. Williams," a "Pro-White/Black, anti-jew."" - Sean McBride
"On Vanguard, where this African-American persona posted more than 1,400 times, he encouraged the malevolence of Frazier Glenn Miller, the neo-Nazi accused of killing three people whom he believed were Jews outside a Jewish community center and retirement home in Kansas in April. The character Williams was engaged in a comment thread more than 200 times with Miller, whose screen name was Rounder." - Sean McBride
"In a Vanguard post under the Williams screen name the commenter asked rhetorically, "Are left wing folks finally waking up to the jew?" He then referred the Vanguard online community to a thread of anti-Semitic comments on Common Dreams--most of which he had written himself under several screen names." - Sean McBride
"A typical DeShawn Williams comment might include: "Israel is a stain on the world that needs to be expunged once and for all." Or: "The jews are the most racist people on earth. Just look at their Talmud. They consider the 'goyim' (non-jews) to be cattle whose only purpose on earth is to serve them."" - Sean McBride
Sound familiar? - Sean McBride
"When Common Dreams examined hundreds of posts in this ugly charade, the aim appeared clear-cut: to cast a deep shadow on, and drive support from, one of the largest and oldest progressive-news websites." - Sean McBride
"A few minutes on Google, Facebook, and LinkedIn led Common Dreams to the owner of the email address, a graduate student at the Midwestern campus. The student also had made the same mistake by using a university computer that had the name of his tiny academic unit." - Sean McBride
"Surely, Beck's campaign has in the end demonstrated a downside to "digital diplomacy"--and a lesson not just for Israel. Beck went far beyond diplomacy into counterproductive digital warfare. Beck may have shown the future, unless defenses are mounted. As the ADL's Todd Gutnick said, "Any idiot with a computer can do something like this." But Beck is highly intelligent--at least in some ways. Think what a team of Becks could do." - Sean McBride
Comment: "this has JIDF spelled all over it in caps. he's following their public manuals to the letter." - Sean McBride
The tip of the proverbial iceberg -- these are basically false flag operations of the type that many pro-Israel activists can't seem to resist using, no matter how many times they are caught. - Sean McBride
Definitely a whiff of familiarity - - down to some of the verbiage. - Danaa
wait, so this guy created an 'anti-semite persona' only to come in with the handle 'JewishProgressive' and trash his other comments? get-a-life. that's a real disturbing (and boring) person. - and they are not going to release his name??? call him Jason Beck? for fear of his own safety from neo nazis? man, that is stupid... - Chu_
Chu -- you've got to go deep on this one -- it's big. This is a bombshell story -- and a brilliant piece of detective work and investigative journalism. - Sean McBride
Chu, that guy is not the only one masquerading as an "anti-semite". the idea is to use the comments section to cast aspersions on a site, and undermine its credibility. It's a well known tactic and using different handles to "play games" among different personas is also a known trick. It's one reason I don't go overboard to call people out as anti-semites or any other name calling since... more... - Danaa
first comment: "This article stems from complaints from Jewish donors about anti-semitism on CD. Ironic that they found a Jewish troll lurking as the biggest "anti-semite." I think if CD had the resources to dig deeper, they would find someone paid him for his work." - Chu_
Mossad psyops -- this pattern of activity goes well beyond JIDF dirty tricks. - Sean McBride
there was talk about bots on MW entering the equation to post random hasbara. The downside is that small sites will have to monitor comments, being unable to focus on the larger criticism of Israel, etc. - Chu_
Here's the thing - real, true blue "anti-semites" whatever that is have their own calling cards. They rarely come out into the open, usually preferring to hide behind one of their many other "antis". A tell tale sign of a potential false flag - references to "the Jew", dropped gratuitously. No self-respecting true-blue anti-semite with a mission would resort to such an obvious ploy and certainly not on an open board. - Danaa
Chu, now you are getting close - the purpose is to bog down the discussions, making them less effective. It's hard to produce effective arguments when one has to constantly swat down flies. - Danaa
Egregious example - I happen to believe that the [in]famous Syrian lesbian "amina" (who turned out to be a married white male who also slithered into other lesbian discussion forums, even becoming an editor) was an example of a false flag. While the purpose of that operation was not entirely clear (yes, any number of progressive sites, including MW, bit on that one) I always found it... more... - Danaa
Exhibit II - Pussy riot in Russia. - Danaa
When I see way out anti semitic comments my first thought is its a zio troll trying to provoke a blow out.....anytime you see 'death to the jews'....and similar rants ....you can be pretty sure its a hasbara troll. - American
Check out the MO behind those twitter campaigns in Cuba and the now exposed false USAID trail. Those are the ones that failed. Note however the MO for the trolls - often relatively young people with interest in NGOs like "things" and/or alternative sexual identity patterns. - Danaa
Wow, Zionism and their lame-o brigades are potentially capable of ruining everything for their corrupt empire. Talk about killing open debate. What a bunch of sore loser children. “If I can’t have it my way, nobody else can” - Chu_
American, yes, but there are slightly more insiduous examples - bring up "The jew" out of the blue is a dead give away. use of too many references to "Talmudic" is another one. Real anti-semites just don't talk that way. Usually it's not the "Talmud" that bothers them, it's the power equation. It is rare that actual judeophobics have only that one phobia either. They will almost always have pointed anti-foreigner bend. - Danaa
Chu - you got it now - the "if i can't have it, neither can you" angle. IT's a big part of the more rabid zionist discourse. They know they lose on the open battle of ideas field so they resort to "guerilla" hit and run operations to ruin it for everyone else. Which is why I/P open discourse is so difficult for anyone who tries to manage it. The minute a blog or a forum becomes... more... - Danaa
I know about it. JIDF, et al. Funny all their dirty tactics, and the world labels them ‘internet trolls’. Sounds like a night-flower blossoming in the dark really. Mother must be proud of them. - Chu_
Wow. Thanks for the information, Sean. An online culture of psychopaths? I guess it shouldn't be surprising, but still.... - weareone
Good one! :) Thanks. - weareone
"Jason Beck" says he has psychological problems that he can't explain -- "tics." - Sean McBride
Jason Beck - And Common Dreams are offering apologies for this guy that tried to take down their website by malicious deceit. And they hide his name? lol... good strategy. Did one of the Jewish donors say they would pay double if they kept his name on the down-low? Liberal websites that enable this behavior will continue to have moral & political corruption (they are letting them win).... more... - Chu_
Look who is trashing MW.https://mobile.twitter.com/MJayRos... - Chu_ from Android
This Common Dreams story sounds like a few commentors we know. - WJones
And they hang out in a particular group, using the same language and themes as "Jason Beck." And they have relentlessly harassed this group, just as "Beck" harassed Common Dreams. - Sean McBride
A certain poster kept interjecting asking me about Kol Nidre, without the slightest relevance or connection to the topic at hand. Another brings up 9/11, again, with zero connection to anything being discussed. Those are NOT the signatures of any real "anti-semite". I am only surprised no one brought up blood libels yet. - Danaa
Danaa: interesting exercise: match up the words and phrases of "Jason Beck" with the posts of the people you mentioned. I'm sure you will find many intersections. - Sean McBride
An idea: may be FF was/is used as a training ground? - Danaa
Danaa -- I had major interactions with the founders of JIDF right here on Friendfeed several years ago when they were first starting up. But their scope is global -- across all media platforms -- mainstream, alternative and social. (Their = not just JIDF but a complex network of hasbara efforts and psyops.) - Sean McBride
I would find it very difficult to believe that "Jason Beck" wasn't part of a larger network and operation. - Sean McBride
By the way, this Friendfeed post is already indexed on Google. - Sean McBride
Keep in mind that the Israel lobby is trying to control the conversation about Israel all across the political spectrum -- from the far left to the far right -- and every gradation of the spectrum in between -- globally -- by every available means, fair and foul. - Sean McBride
http://mondoweiss.net/2014... Dickerson. He has a good comment about JIDF - Chu_
Here's the JIDF memo: ~ ~ ~ JIDF 4chan operations for Feb 2011 ~ ~ ~ Jewish Internet Defense Force (offsite) This upcoming February we will be launching our largest operation on 4chan and other popular image boards, our objective is to create an image of Palestinians and Lebanese being virulently anti-American and anti-Western. • Create threads against Israel and fill them with posts... more... - Chu_
There it is -- but few Americans are aware of these Zionist false flag ops and black ops, that are going on all the time all around the world. - Sean McBride
The level of sociopathic manipulation here is off the charts. - Sean McBride
Zionist false flag ops and black ops: if the network is unsuccessful in one region of the world, move on to find a softer spot. It often seems like 'sport' to them, where raiding & plundering is the main goal and often that money is filtered into Israel...i.e. back to the tribe. Early this week on a subway platform between north and south trains, I saw an old white bearded man with a... more... - Chu_
http://www.theguardian.com/technol... 2011- Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media Military's 'sock puppet' software creates fake online identities to spread pro-American propaganda - Chu_
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Question for the American Jewish Establishment: Where does Zionism end and Judaism begin? - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
It has happened again. The rift between America’s Jewish Establishment and young, liberal-minded Jews has widened in the wake of the Gaza War.
Isn't it time to move past this topic? It seems most of the world has, as evidenced by the numbers in the streets worldwide protesting Zionism. If a tiny fraction of the worldwide population, even though in positions of power for the moment, cling to the idea of a racist,colonialist, genocidal regime, let them argue among themselves. For most young people that I know, Jews and... more... - weareone
I agree wao....only jews find this worth pondering.... - American
Or those who cling to the idea of Zionism-jews or non-jews. I know that I'm not interested in focusing on this and it's nice to have other perspectives on this site. - weareone
Correction: I should say, those who benefit from Zionism, rather than "cling to." - weareone
The vast majority of human beings on the planet are not preoccupied with the problematic relations between Judaism and Zionism -- in fact, they couldn't care less. They are focused on their standard of living and quality of life in their respective nations. (But I think it is a good thing that the Jewish establishment is beginning to undertake the task of disentangling Judaism from Zionism.) - Sean McBride
I suppose so, and good luck to them, but ultimately whatever this small group of small-minded individuals decide is irrelevant, They're still arguing something that most humans have figured out long ago-at least 70 years ago. Zionism is self-destructing and is also being destroyed from the outside via movements such as BDS. Other issues are predominating except within a small group with tunnel vision. - weareone
Sorry if I come off as a little(or a lot) preachy, but you can tell I've had it with this issue. - weareone
Many people are tired of discussing Israeli issues and problems -- those controversies are sucking up all the oxygen in the room. - Sean McBride
That's very true. I should have been more specific-I really meant more the issue of Zionism, but it's very good that we are now finally hearing the voices of Palestinians and other oppressed peoples thanks to alternative media. I wasn't referring to that discussion. - weareone
I am completely tired of the jewish tribe period....and by that I mean the mind boggling, sick to the core narcissism and self worshipping of the tribe. ...the Jews that write about gaza write about in terms of ' what its done to israel'....I am sick of it, really, really sick of it. Every time I see mention of their holocaust now I throw up a bit. Herzl was right, the tribe should be... more... - American
I understand American, but I always remember that there are Jews that have never supported Zionism, not just those that have come lately for whatever reasons. I greatly admire those Jews because they have been persecuted, even killed for their advocacy for human rights. They have "walked the walk, not just talked the talk" for almost 70 years and they are very humble-still no... more... - weareone
Many Jews will continue to be high achievers and culture creators in domains that have nothing to do with Judaism or Zionism -- that's a safe prediction. - Sean McBride
In the face of injustice and inhumanity I think that we have to be careful about generalizing and attributing to all members of a racial or ethnic group, the characteristics of it's worse members. Who among us would like to be identified with the most egregious members of our "tribes?" I prefer to think of myself and others as members of the human family or tribe. - weareone
I think we should all work to overcome negative patterns of group interaction all across the board among all ethnic, religious and cultural groups -- and seek a higher ground. One can dream. - Sean McBride
I agree. - weareone
I, in total honesty, see no worth while 'culture that the jewish tribe has created anywhere. Point out to me some world or civilization improving contribution that the tribe has created-----I have ask a 1000xs for a listing of the supposed contributions of 'the tribe'----and no one has yet been able to provide me with a "List" of their contributions to the universe. Usually the only reply I get is they invented the bible ..and cherry tomatoes...and marched for black civil rights..and got some nobel prizes.. - American
'' Who among us would like to be identified with the most egregious members of our "tribes?" )....Who among us would continue to protect and support a tribe, the *majority' of which supports nazi zionism? Nope I am done with the concern' for jews as a group.'.....they have a problem and are a problem. The rare birds that are against zionism have denounced it and the tribe. If you didnt apporval of what the KKK did you renounced your membership in it----jews can do the same. - American
'Saving the Jews" is done. ..they dont get to be saved again--- (particularly (from themselves) . Save us, save us!!!, we cant stop stealing and killing!!!!---No thanks. - American
American,fwiw, I agree with you more often than not and there is a certain "group think" for lack of a better phase that ,I have come to understand reading MW, is pervasive in the Jewish community. I don't understand it and I don't need to understand it, but I guess I resist seeing Jews as a collective, even though it seems that many see themselves that way. Still, some don't. Anyway, I... more... - weareone
wearone, I understand where you are coming from, I think. All this discussion of jews vs zionism is and has gotten pretty tiresome. Is there anything new to say about the subject? I kind of doubt it. I am also on the same page as you regarding a return to self-producing locally based economies - that global trade business is one balloon that's popped up big time. Now we all see who it... more... - Danaa
So yes, I see Zionism as a very disruptive ideology, which unfortunately is backed by a country that's armed to the teeth and has an emotional hold over many stake holders in other countries (namely, Jews. many of them). One cannot easily escape the clutches of this one ideology because it's come to permeate way too many institutions, from the halls of academia, to charitable... more... - Danaa
I don't think it should be all up to the jews to resolve their "little" zionism/Judaism problem for the reason that the dissonance is all of our problem. The solution is not to become totally uninterested, as uninteresting as the subject may be, but to get more people interested who are not jewish. Today, I was able to explain Gaza to 4 more people who asked, non-Jewish all. And they... more... - Danaa
For this purpose I always keep a rotating selection of 5-10 articles that I know I can send around - just one at a time - as follow-up. Sometimes I choose something from Marc Ellis (I have two on my list) because his writing seems to hit a cord with more religious/spiritually inclined people.Sometimes my own hand-picked selections from Finkelstein where he really knocks the ground from... more... - Danaa
Well you'all have a lot more patience than I do---if it was up to me I'd hit the delete key on Israel--60 years of this shit is 58 years too long. However I will take one thing back.....the Mooser made a comment the other day about being sorry he'd always been so flip and jokey--said Gaza had really gotten to him---so it is possible for some to open their eyes to something besides their own judaism or tribal angst. - American
Mooser has acquired a harder edge, a more serious tone -- it's impressive. But one always knew there was a serious person there beneath the japes. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- something I've noticed -- often one's best writing flies off one's fingertips, spontaneously, with no elaborate crafting or laborious composition. The thoughts are just there, in the moment, baked just right. - Sean McBride
Thanks for your perspective, Danaa. It's great that you're educating and informing people and that they're receptive. I agree that " the solution is not to become totally uninterested, as uninteresting as the subject may be, but to get more people interested who are not jewish,"but my thought is that other perspectives should be heard. When discussing Zionism other voices should... more... - weareone
<<I don't think it should be all up to the jews to resolve their "little" zionism/Judaism problem for the reason that the dissonance is all of our problem>> Zionism is not being left to Jews to resolve, as the world is demonstrating. It seems the world does not trust Jews to resolve a problem that they're perceived of as creating or at the very least, complicit in creating and haven't... more... - weareone
I believe in treating people as individuals, not as cookie cutter members of stereotypical groups -- certainly innocent until proven guilty. Of course, some members of groups do in fact encapsulate the worst qualities of those groups. Ardent followers of messianic ideological movements -- especially ethnic and religious nationalist movements -- do all tend to conform to negative stereotypes and lose the precious traits that make them original and thoughtful individuals. - Sean McBride
Yes, Sean, I agree that people should be treated as individuals, but Zionism is insidious and pervasive and involves many who may or may not be characterized by anti-zionists as "ardent followers of messianic ideological movements." A much larger community has endorsed and supported the Zionist "project" for a very long time. I think you may have discussed it's support by many in the Jewish religious establishment. - weareone
Zionism is an ethnic/religious nationalist movement. If you buy into Zionism -- and especially if you embrace it passionately -- you assume responsibility for the policies and actions of the Israeli government -- you own them. In my experience, most passionate Zionists have abandoned their creative individuality -- they are unpleasant clones of one another. They tend to be bots -- often angry and aggressive bots. - Sean McBride
<<...you assume responsibility for the policies and actions of the Israeli government -- you own them>> I agree. - weareone
So there are many individuals who "own" the actions of the Israeli government. - weareone
To ever end the Jewish and zionist problem you are going to have to' treat the tribe in a collective manner'. Why? Because the tribe does have 'a group core problem'. And that core problem---one of believing in their exceptionalism, in their eternal entitlement for victimhood is pervasive throughout the majority of the tribe. Until you take those away from the tribe as a whole you will... more... - American
Jewish victimhood entitlement must be 'decommissioned completely'. Or this will never end. - American
I disagree, American -- the most effective way to disagree with particular ideologies and movements is to challenge the particular individuals and groups that lead those ideologies and movements. Otherwise you are yourself succumbing to a collectivist mentality -- and collectivist policies almost always lead to grave injustices and war crimes. - Sean McBride
The golden rule: treat others as you wish to be treated. One presumes that you don't want to be treated as a member of a stereotypical collective. All of us are vulnerable to being treated that way. Which of our cultural groups is without sin? - Sean McBride
''The golden rule" is a great platitude which you can repeat endlessly. But it has nothing to do with the fact that the tribe itsef has these core belief problems. You could apply the same thing to the nazi ideology for German individuals---but the fact is the core beliefs of nazism had to be defeated. The eternal entitlement of Jews as victims is exactly what has spawned the jewish and... more... - American
American -- again: you would be more effective if you directed your criticism at specific individuals and groups that hold specific ideological beliefs -- and not over-collectivize and over-generalize your critique. That is my opinion. I would not react well to being classified and attacked on the basis of coming from an Irish Catholic or Anglo-Episcopalian background and under the assumption that all individuals with that background are collectively guilty of anything. - Sean McBride
You are entirely missing the point of the necessity of having to destroy or end the ideology (of entitlement) of a 'group'. This is what has to be done to the' group ideology'---it has nothing to do with the some or all of individuals. - American
Go argue this with Atzmon. He (and some others, like Avagail) have nailed this time after time and they are right. - American
If your argument is that you oppose the notion of group entitlement held by *some* Jews (and presumably other groups as well), then by all means develop your argument. But when you address your criticism at "the Jewish group," matters become murky and problematic very quickly. - Sean McBride
The issue with Mooser is not so much that he has "bad" or "good" views, but that it is simply difficult to make a reasonable or easy, logical discussion on the relationship between nationalism and religion: http://mondoweiss.net/2014... Neither he nor I are trying to equate the two, yet he gets too excited, more than is helpful. - WJones
I saw your comment the other day Jones. I really didn't expect him to comment, but in the least I'd expect a put down (are you daft?), but at least he didn't call you boy-chik. I often wonder if all the ghetto dwelling of Jews within other nations made some of them complacent and ultimately bitter toward society (the nations) or did that condition occur before? But look no further than... more... - Chu_
Here is an interesting distinction, one Iheard Gliad also make, between the religious and secular jews, especially in Israel: the religious ones get their tanakh along with the commentaries made over centuries by learned rabbis, who sought to qualify some of the worst chapters, adapting them to more modern sensibilities (like that eye for an eye and adultress stoning business that got... more... - Danaa
As for "Jews as a group" in the US, it's going to be tough. Contrary to what Sean seems to imply, I don't believe jews have leaders, though some may take the mantle upon themselves. There are, instead different centers of consensus, each with its own "thought leaders". Some are more observant than others and some are more, or less, militant in their pro-Israel zealotry. Ultimately,... more... - Danaa
Here is a thought I have been turning over in my head - how far would israel have to go before it loses the support of the jewish establishment? My answer to that question, based on all I know and been able to process, is far from comforting. That's why I agree with some of things American says - reluctantly. This is not the place to elaborate but I think more people should think through this question. Come up with their own answers. - Danaa
WJones -- keep in mind that Mooser has read no scholarly books or articles about the intellectual history of Judaism and Zionism, knows nothing about the subject, is totally incurious about the subject, and is intensely emotional about the subject. It is not possible to pursue a well-informed discussion with him on that subject without being verbally abused by him. Any questions or conversations about the relations between Judaism and Zionism make him angry -- his sense of humor evaporates completely. - Sean McBride
Judaism and Zionism share several core memes: sacred territory, sacred peoplehood, sacred nationhood and never-ending conflict with "the nations." The worldwide Jewish religious establishment has passionately embraced Zionism and fused Judaism and Zionism into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology. - Sean McBride
Mooser would like to make these issues magically disappear with the wave of a wand or a mean jape, but they won't. - Sean McBride
<<Here is a thought I have been turning over in my head - how far would israel have to go before it loses the support of the jewish establishment? My answer to that question, based on all I know and been able to process, is far from comforting.>> They were already OK with wartime massacres and mass expulsions of 75% of the people in the Green Line (the Nakba events), so whatever would... more... - WJones
The other thing that would make them lose support would be if they were openly Apartheid and denied being democratic toward Palestinian Israelis. Pro-Israeli nationalists rely on trying to portray the state as a democracy. It would have to be if Netanyahu or the parliament said something like "We used to be a democracy, but now we decided that's in the past and Apartheid is better." - WJones
crowther makes a good point to mooser. http://mondoweiss.net/2014... (and see Lozowick's point #1) -And Lozowick is an intellectual in Israel - but his comment about killing children is very crude as Phil notes. - Chu_
I posted this reply to Dan Crowther: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT - Sean McBride
Dan Crowther, - Sean McBride
The worldwide Jewish religious establishment has projected an image of itself and of Judaism to the entire world that is entirely Zionist -- for the last half century (at least) it has been fusing Judaism and Zionism into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology and political program. - Sean McBride
Simply consult the official statements issued during that time frame by the leading organizations representing Judaism. - Sean McBride
You can find a list of them here: - Sean McBride
Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations: Member Organizations http://www.conferenceofpresidents.org/about... - Sean McBride
In all the controversies surrounding Zionism, this issue strikes me as the most consequential by far -- the one that needs to be addressed most forcefully. - Sean McBride
The behavior of the Israeli government is not only delegitimizing Zionism -- it is delegitimizing Judaism. Zionism and Judaism are now joined at the hip. - Sean McBride
As for Mooser's dream of a non-Zionist Judaism emerging in any significant way -- I'll believe it when I see it. Matters are trending in the opposite direction -- especially in Israel. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Crowther quote: " This isn’t about judaism, it’s about jewishness." ~It's really the core issue. At this point it feels like [Jewishness] is the parent of Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is an old photograph that new Jews like to look at every so often. - Chu_
One could make the argument that all Jewish ideologies, including Judaism, Marxism and Zionism, are the products of Jewishness -- a set of mental and personality traits that are largely grounded in ethnicity and distinct ethnic characteristics. There is probably a biological/genetic basis for many expressions of human culture. - Sean McBride
Chu "Judaism is an old photograph that new Jews like to look at every so often". Me like. - Danaa
One tends to know Irishness, Englishness, Frenchness, Germanness, Europeanness, Russianness, Indianness, Chineseness, etc. when you see it -- on the basis of many complex traits and factors, many of them unconscious. - Sean McBride
American
True Monkey Story
When I was a young kid a acquaintance of my father rescued a abused monkey from one of those traveling animal shows. The man was besotted with this monkey and treated the monkey as his only child. You never saw the man without the monkey, he took him everywhere he went. And everywhere he went he would tell people about the rescue of the poor abused monkey. - American
People in town were taken with the story of the monkey and his rescue and made an exception for the monkey and let the man bring him into stores and even restaurants where pets were not normally allowed. All the monkey had to do was point and chatter at something and the man would get it for him. He would drive around town with the monkey in his lap letting him try to steer the car wheel. - American
One day my father remarked that he thought the monkey was becoming dangerous. The man had brought him into his office and the monkey was wild, jumping on the desk and the secretaries, tearing things up and throwing them around and the man couldn’t control him. My father said he told the man he needed to restrict or discipline the monkey some but the man blew it off. - American
Some time after that we heard the man was in the hospital. The monkey was pretty smart and had learned to do all kinds of things like fetch things for the man. So one day the man wassitting on his porch and told the monkey to go fetch them cokes from the fridge. The monkey got two cokes from the fridge but when he went back to the man he didn’t want to hand over one of the cokes to the... more... - American
Some neighbors heard the man yelling and were able subdue the monkey and get the man to the clinic. I don’t remember hearing what happened to the monkey but the man wasn’t able to keep him after that. - American
Just substitute the tribe for the monkey in this story and its easy to see why the world has the current Jewish and Israel problem. - American
American -- any attempts to compare Jews collectively to an abused monkey will be viewed by most people as an expression of classical and virulent antisemitism. I really find it difficult to understand why you go down this path. We may just have to come to the conclusion that you and I hold significantly divergent views on these issues. Every cultural group -- including yours (white... more... - Sean McBride
oh for gawds sake sean....you are idiotic when you get on your ridiculous high horse anti semite accusations....you know damn well I am not calling jews monkeys....this true story illustrates the universal truth of what happens when someone(s) are indulged beyond all reason, allowed to do anything they please. And it is a accurate comparison of the overindulgence of jewish victimhood... more... - American
American -- so you think I am "idiotic" and "ridiculous" because I think you should carefully narrow your critique of Israel and Zionism to specific individuals, organizations, ideas and policies -- and not attack Jews collectively. Got it. With regard to burnishing my "anti-antisemitism creds" -- I am consistent in opposing collectivist attacks on all groups, not just Jews -- that... more... - Sean McBride
So you are saying I disagree that all human being should be treated decently.? I am going to tell you once more.....THIS IS ABOUT THE BELIEFS OF ENTITLEMENT WITHIN THE JEWISH GROUP THAT HAS TO BE ENDED. You keep refusing to GET THE POINT. Amen. - American
American -- when you attack "the Jewish group" (your direct quote), you are engaging in an attack on Jews collectively, from my perspective. I am confident that most people would read your words that way. And, as I have now stated many times, I strongly oppose collectivist attacks on all cultural groups -- they tend to lead to genocidal wars. You are entitled to your opinions -- I am entitled to mine. - Sean McBride
There is a strain of entitlement attitudes running through the beliefs of many cultural groups worldwide and throughout all of world history -- this is not an exclusively Jewish phenomenon. Go after the individuals who hold these beliefs across all cultures. - Sean McBride
At this moment in history, notions of entitlement (even divine entitlement) play a key role in the beliefs of quite a few Jewish and Christian Zionists -- by all means challenge their beliefs as effectively as you can. I try to do so. - Sean McBride
American -- let me be clear: my gut instinct is that you *are* a decent person -- but perhaps a bit rough around the edges and not always perfectly precise in how you express your ideas. I often feel the urge to edit your comments -- but they are your comments and I respect that. - Sean McBride
I will interject about one thing - don't we usually lump all the jewish israelis into a collective? are we wrong to do this? after all, we know there a few good people there too - should we then take the country off the hook for its bad behavior because there are a few good men 9and women) there? - Danaa
By the same token - when it comes to jews in America - haven't all the major jewish establishment organizations (as in ALL 25 of them) plus a large collection of rabbis representing their synagogs fully endorsed israel's massacres of the palestinians? if 60% of all American Jews condone genocide (and they will, to judge by the unremitting pace of their apologetica) and another 20% are... more... - Danaa
Sean knows a few "good" jewish people, I know a few and Phil knows many more, but is that enough to take the "jewish people' as a tribe off the hook? what is personal and what is general? I really don't think it's so simple, and part of me understands where American is coming from. He is exasperated, as are many of us. Unlike Philwho no doubt gets many lovvy-dovvy letters from... more... - Danaa
Thank you Danaa for 'getting it'. Sean acts as if saying the 'victim entitlement culture' must end is condemning and making dire threats to holocaust all the Jews. Ending the victimhood entitlement means just that, withdrawing special treatment for jews/israel and not making exceptions for outrageous and destructive behavior. - American
"" And, as I have now stated many times, I strongly oppose collectivist attacks on all cultural groups "..sean).....Well then.... its a good thing you werent in charge in the 1940's or we'd all be going around clicking our heels and saying Heil Hitler! Or in 1840 or blacks would still be slaves. - American
Do you think Germany should have been "deleted"? - Sean McBride
Nazi Germany was deleted.....and rebuilt as a De- Nazified Germany. - American
Do you think that Nazi Germany was equivalent to Germany, the German people, "the German group," several thousand years of German culture, etc.? - Sean McBride
You have seemed to argue that Zionism is equivalent to Israel, the Jewish people, "the Jewish group," several thousand years of Jewish history, etc. - Sean McBride
Two problematic issues here: 1. Zionism and Israel are in fact one and the same. 2. The contemporary worldwide Jewish establishment has itself stridently claimed that Israel and Zionism are equivalent to the Jewish people collectively. - Sean McBride
You are being a bit schizophrenic, Sean, trying to hold the stick on both ends. kind of like Phil - denounce all the bad players at the heart of the jewish establishment (the "enablers") but hold on to the concept of "privilege", as if one had nothing to do with the other. - Danaa
Of course, the way Phil writes sometimes reveals his own realization- and apprehensions - that privilege may well be the sacrifice required before anything good happens over there in the Middle east. He hopes perhaps that the great "schism" can happen without too much cost to the standing of Jewish Americans and their special entitlements, cf. their position as new mandarins. The hope is normal and perhaps you share it Sean. - Danaa
The way I read it, American basically doesn't believe that a smooth schism with lots of gevalts and hand wringings is on the horizon. Being realistic I kind of see "it" whatever it is, unfolding rather traumatically myself, and not without non-Jews playing an important role. Whether any of us likes it or not, there is a very good chance that the Mandarin class will have to be toppled... more... - Danaa
Example: if Joan Rivers did not feel privileged, she wouldn't have issued thatsnarky, mean-spirited rant she did at the airport. Would anyone in the public eye get away with something like this? Television reporters and actors/actresses were black-listed for a lot less than that. Ask Oliver Stone. - Danaa
Danaa -- when have I ever defended ethnic or religious privilege, entitlement or exceptionalism? I have consistently condemned it. What I am suggesting is that reviving the main themes of classical antisemitism -- in which "the Jewish group" is collectively responsible for all its problems and conflicts with outsiders over 3,000 years -- is extremely dangerous and could lead to another Holocaust. - Sean McBride
I know you condemn it, Sean, but condemnation is not the issue. rather it is what it would take to put a dent in that privilege. You hope it can be done smoothly, as in privilege slowly decaying, and may be time does erode all privilege. But I don't think it will happen without a cataclism, based on my reading of what little I know of human history. Privileged people always feel entitled. The rest are just excuses. - Danaa
Danaa -- I think that the specific individuals and organizations that are most responsible for promoting an ideology and regime of innate privilege, entitlement and exceptionalism should be challenged as forcefully as possible and overcome in the free marketplace of ideas. What would you recommend? - Sean McBride
Here is the problem the way I see it - saying that zionism "hijacked" Judaism and jews is one thing. Hoping the "Jews" can be "rescued" is another. Knowing they - the people and Judaism itself - cannot be 'rescued" without serious collateral damage is still another. I was just stating that my interpretation of where American may be coming from is that he is a bot tired of the "Oy-vey"... more... - Danaa
I recommend nothing, as of yet, Sean. but I am not so trusting that the "marketplace of Ideas" will come to the rescue. Your knight on a white horse is a bit weak, in case you didn't notice. You trust that reason will triumph in the end. Did it in Ukraine? in Iraq? in Palestine? what is more likely to happen is that the voice of reason, being but a wispy whisper on the periphery of most... more... - Danaa
Not that my reading of what may transpire is the same as American's. I am not sure he is ready to behold just what a revolution it might take to topple a mandarin class. He himself - or people he knows and respects - may well be part of the "collateral damage, just as I might be or you. When cataclisms happen "niceness" and "rationality" do not offer a bullet-proof shelter . - Danaa
By my calculation, any efforts to violently overturn the current neoconservative/neoliberal regime would be met with crushing and overwhelming physical force, using the full apparatus of state power. Perhaps your calculations differ. - Sean McBride
You want to know what I suggest doing? just what we have been since it is the role assigned to those of us whose assignment seems to be in the realm of speech. I am thinking of Josephus Flavius. He saw it all coming down and made his choice that he wanted to be on the side of the chroniclers. - Danaa
I myself am in the Titus Flavius Josephus camp -- in part because I think there are much bigger forces in play in world history than political and cultural conflicts based on ethnicity, race, religion and nationalism. - Sean McBride
My calculations are no different than yours Sean. Toppling the neoliberal/neoconservative overlors will not come about smoothly, and I totally agree that any overt attempt will be met with overwhelming force. But look at Ferguson - there is obviously a huge amount of pent-up anger and frustration. And the over-response by the police will only make the frustration worse. next time it bubbles over it will be that much more violent. - Danaa
You may do Flavius but i think I'll stick to jeremiah. It's my natural role. WE each have one in this Greek tragedy, based on inclination, opportunity and happenstance. - Danaa
Danaa -- to some degree, you and American have nailed me. I see the Jewish establishment as being boxed into a bad corner with Zionism and am searching for ways to help extricate itself gracefully from this situation with as little damage as possible. I am doing this not because I am a wonderful person or a "Judeophile" but because I think that if this situation goes the wrong way,... more... - Sean McBride
Listen to Danaa sean. Your position reminds me of the old saying..."cant see the forest for the trees" ...when it comes to individual Jews vr the Group. You arent going to magically remove a few Uber Zionist and cure Zionism/Israel or the group of their firmly held belief in their entitlement as victims. - American
Let's establish why I say Jewish entitlement has to end. First, I do not, and no serious realist or FP expert like Walt or Freeman and dozens of others believe for one second that Israel is any kind of asset to the US. On the contrary they believe it is a liabiity. In 1948 all FP and military experts warned Truman that the US would rue the day Israel was established in the ME. I dont... more... - American
Second, despite the claims of just being a few Jews who support zionism and Israel and demand the US do so------no one can look at jewish publications, no one can look at Judaism in the US and not see that the biggest segment of Judaism is totally committed to Israel. You have seen by now some Jews who have expressed the 'concern' that the Israel cornerstone in US Judaism should at least be 'debated". - American
American -- you're preaching to the choir on those issues -- I've made the same points many times myself. - Sean McBride
Third, it is fact that people dont want to or usually willingly give up any 'perks' they are getting. And I have listed special perk after perk from we taxpayers courtesy of our congress that go to even rank and file Jews. Do you think they want to lose the 90% of Homeland Security funds they receive for their orgs and offices and schools and etc.? Do they want to lose the special tax... more... - American
Fourth, just like the 1% that is incuring so much resentment so do Jews among people who are aware of this. Even people who arent aware of it all--do, as you have seen in major comment boards----resent the hell out of their money going to Israel---even before this latest Gaza slaughter. Add to this the raised eyebrows and whispering among people when they hear all the pledges of loyalty to israel in every election....and yes there is whispering of wtf among a lot of people. - American
Fifth, just like there will eventually be either a political correction or upheaval aimed at government because of the inequity and deterioriting conditions in the US there will be a upheaval against the Israel loyalty by politicians and upheaval against the Jewishness they will associate with supporting it.....and the public will be at least 50% correct in assigning that blame to the jewish group. You can argue against that fact all you want it wont change the facts. - American
Sixth, I dont know how it will end, I only know it has to end. And it has to end for the reason/ result I illustrated with my abused/spoiled monkey story. - American
Seventh, if you have read even a fraction of my post on MW and here and elsewhere you know that I have consistently, loudly, demandingly...urged everyone 'to go after the politicians' as the way to end the Isr problem...I havent urged them to go after the Jews or Judaism. I have said and will keep saying the Jews are absolutely stupid beyond belief to have made their foreign disneyland... more... - American
As said I have no idea how it will end. What I think is there has to be a huge public blacklash against Israel as part of a general backlash against USA Orwell, Inc.. ...that would end jewish influence for Isr in government. That would be the best outcome. The worse outcome is letting it continue until it culminates in more abuse of the US by Israel and more strident demands and acting out by zionist jews and some event touches off the kind of last straw outburst we are seeing in Mo. right now. - American
'' I've made the same points many times myself. - Sean McBride. "...Well then quit taking issue with what I have said . I am 'blunt,' so to speak for a purpose,...because some of us must be or this will be a 'forever debate'...we know where the core of the problem is and its what I described. And I have said it to the zios and everyone else on MW hundreds of times. And even the so... more... - American
WJones
Is the restricted comment deadline an example of self-censorship on behalf, indirectly, of the political system?
Philip Weiss August 3, 2014 at 8:10 pm with 1 replies "I agree that Jewish exceptionalism is a problem; but societies all have their elites, they rise and fall, and this one improved on the wasps in some ways, fell back in others. We could talk about Vietnam and the best and the brightest. Another awful elite" http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - koch
I think that partly, the answer is yes - cut back on the time the thread is open and conversation, by definition, will wither away. I believe that it was the 'conversations" that raised the ire of certain individuals in the background, who are desperately trying to "quaranteen" the virus of zionism/Judaism, it being considered a most virulent condition. Those "background" people are... more... - Danaa
The other part for cutting back on comments is simpler - insufficient man/woman power to moderate. That's not an easy job and never was. Especially when a blog becomes popular, like MW is. They are inundated with hasbara trolls most of which we never see. But also they sense a bubbling impatience underneath even the most polite conversations. That means that some posters have to be... more... - Danaa
The short of what I'm trying to say - uneasy rests the crown. - Danaa
And we know what happens to the court jester if he goes too far. - Danaa
The court "jester" - the role assigned to MW by the "community": keep that valve partly open so "people" can blow off steam, and the PTB can keep an eye on the percolating brew. And if it gets too "steamy", why can always put the lid on. Alas, there's a bubbling cauldron underneath - it may be getting close toa spontaneous phase change - may not be as simple as replacing a lid. - Danaa
I guess the name of the next operation state-side should be "Cast Lid". Something tells me there are those forging various alloys as we speak...... - Danaa
"Cast Lid". :) - WJones
<<The court "jester" - the role assigned to MW by the "community": keep that valve partly open so "people" can blow off steam, and the PTB can keep an eye on the percolating brew. And if it gets too "steamy", why can always put the lid on>> Not surprised. - weareone
Danaa -- very smart comments -- and a perfect example of charged and electric writing that flows in a spontaneous and conversational way. - Sean McBride
I think some of the smartest minds in the Jewish community are trying to figure just how far one can go in the critique of Zionism, Judaism and the Jewish tradition as a whole without unleashing a tidal wave of antisemitism. It is difficult to know where that line is. - Sean McBride
The educated Christian community in the West made the decision quite some time ago: anything goes with regard to the critique of Christianity. Either you believe in open intellectual inquiry and free speech or you don't. - Sean McBride
There are, of course, important distinctions between open intellectual inquiry on the one hand and incitements to hatred and violence on the other. - Sean McBride
Since most thoughtful Jews want to protect their right to critique non-Jewish ideologies, they will need to protect the right of non-Jews to critique Jewish ideologies. The criticism needs to flow freely in both directions. But all of these critiques need to be civil. - Sean McBride
Regarding hate speech: I know it when I see it. Most of us do. - Sean McBride
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Gaza has at last come to matter. For the spectator world, it is an opportunity to vicariously sample – from a safe distance, of course - the heart of darkness that casts such a pall over much of humanity’s barbaric past, to the dark forces of conquest that have all too often strayed into outright genocide, as conquistadors, hordes and “settlers” of days gone did what they could to “clear the land”’ of its inconvenient natives. And yes, to Nazi persecution of WW2, says Danaa Marec at Mondo.
Our Danaa I presume. - Sean McBride
My reply was--->''I think internal consensus has been achieved in the Israeli government and a large segment of its society…….Israel has just not yet found world powers willing to let them go quite that far…or who would foot the bill for their transfer solutions. Various plans for the final transfer or disposal of Palestines from their land have been out for a number of years. One particularly odious one under the guise of a ‘humanitarian solution’ (below). - American
continued----"The Israel premise for the humanitarian transfer begins with a familiar refrain—-if you want to make German or Jewish holocaust comparsions to Gaza and Palestines. ’’Dispassionate analysis of Palestinian behavior for well over the last half-century strongly supports the heretical assertion that the Palestinians are neither genuinely desirous nor deserving of statehood. ‘’... more... - American
Marek is a Czech name. - WJones
Its her pen name. - American
good news. maybe she can start that blog. But Danaa has written stuff for MW in the past. One article I recall, when they were asking for contribution pieces. - Chu_
The piece seemed to me somewhat forced and' winding'....doesnt sound like her usual takes here and in comments section......bu then again thinking about it twice , I see one or two similar themes in it. - American
Can you cite her past articles? I could not find them. - WJones
I could be mistaken Jones. The search feature is not so good at MW. Taxi around the same time wrote an article for MW, and I can't find that easily. And if you know, MW has deleted some old posts, ones that had controversial debates - flushed right down the memory hole. - Chu_
Try using Google to search Mondoweiss, for instance: [Google; site:mondoweiss.net danaa http://www.google.com/#q=site...] - Sean McBride
I don't think there are any other articles by Danaa on the site now. "Danaa Marec" is listed as having only one article. If you do a google search for: _____site:http://mondoweiss.net/author danaa____ , then all that comes up is Danaa Marec and Annie, and I don't know why Annie comes up, but anyway there is no other author listed as Danaa. - WJones
I'll find it for you W.Jones. It was from January 2012 I believe when MW had all those submissions contest. There were quite a few good ones, and mine was one (it didn't win .... but got a nod, so something). I was going to turn in something in february when the hoopla was going on about Yarmouk in Syria, to try and balance the scales. I was almost done (it was difficult - needed lots... more... - Danaa
BTW, thanks for the good words, WJones, and the interest. I know this one turned out "a bit" long but next time, I'll try and make American happy too and take some scissors to it. It's good to have room for improvement, isn't it? - Danaa
Truth is, I am not nearly done with what I have to say about gaza. I just saw Weisel's ad again - which the Guardian accepted, for some reason. Stomach churning. We can expect the israelis - and friendsin the US - to continue to go overboard with their blood libels against hamas. the latest is - they are trying to draw a straight line between hamas and ISIS.really. Just like that. So that's my next material. - Danaa
Danaa....I thought it was good but it didnt sound as 'surgical' or laser like ,for lack of a better term ,as your usual remarks. - American
W.Jones - here is the link to that entry. It was 2011 not 2012 (how time passes!). It was called Elegy : http://mondoweiss.net/2010... - Danaa
American, not to worry, the sharp will return, in due course. An aside: we all have more than one side, don't we? and you haven't seen my poetry yet - just you wait..... - Danaa
Danaa, You can still submit your outdated article on Yarmouk someplace. You can call it an article on "hindsight" about Yarmouk, and include a paragraph or two to update the reader. The Syrian conflict, continues, anyway. - WJones
I just read Danaa's older essay she linked to. It was listed under Annie Robbins' articles by says Danaa in the subtitle as the author. I liked the essay. - WJones
Danaa, you write beautifully. In a comment after your earlier essay you wrote: "In time, I intend to do more weaving in of some of the riveting accounts from the “other side” "– Thank you for doing that. - weareone
Although, we may think that the vile inhumanity of the situation should be obvious, you may be able to reach some who are not fully awake to it. - weareone
Chu_
this guy falls into the category of a LZ when it's convenient, but goes to Likud when things get tough. Same claptrap as many others. MW should address this delusion with Zionists. It's like a psychological disorder that needs treatment. - Chu_
Actually it's closer to Psychopathy. The LZ's, just like Likud, and just like the religious Jews - in israel and the US suffer from something I could only characterize by analogy with a certain type of sociopaths. The thing that jumps at you right away is the complete absence of empathy for other humans who are not Israelis (or at least jews). IT's like they try to mask it by sending a... more... - Danaa
Sean McBride
ISIS Atrocities in Iraq Represent the Catastrophic Failure of Bush Doctrine and Neoconservative Foreign Policy | H. A. Goodman - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goo...
ISIS Atrocities in Iraq Represent the Catastrophic Failure of Bush Doctrine and Neoconservative Foreign Policy | H. A. Goodman
"Soon after 9/11, the Bush administration led the country with confidence and bravado, calling out an Axis of Evil and offering a bold new plan to remake the map of the Middle East. Unfortunately, bringing democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq proved more difficult than Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Bush had promised Americans when selling both wars. While Dick Cheney still holds the senile view that Obama is to blame for Iraq's current demise, the reality is that William Kristol, Robert Kagan, and all the other necons who wrote essays like Bombing Iraq Isn't Enough in The New York Times (as early as 1988) failed to accurately predict the future. The Bush Doctrine policy of "preventive war" not only failed to prevent future conflicts in Iraq and the Middle East, but also created a power vacuum that emboldened renegade and genocidal groups like ISIS." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"The potential interest cost of the US war debt reaches into the trillions; but of greater consequence is the fact that we deliberately chose to finance the wars in this fashion -- passing on the costs to future generations." - Sean McBride
"Unfortunately, we didn't have a Tea Party bemoaning the national debt or responsible GOP lawmakers asking for a tax to pay for the war. From the potentially $6 trillion for both wars, the interest alone on those wars could reach trillions; representing a substantial portion of the national debt in future generations. Financial concerns aside, the absolute failure of people like Dick... more... - Sean McBride
Top comment: "W's Lost Decade was catastrophic for our country and the entire world. It will take us decades to recover all that W destroyed." - Sean McBride
Obama isnt helping...... - American
Obama is boxed into a corner by the Israel lobby -- particularly by the pro-Israel billionaires who largely own the Democratic Party. - Sean McBride
Obama doesnt have to be boxed into a corner----he and other politicians just dont have the balls to bust the lobby wide open in public and kill it...which is what would happen if a president ever took to the bully pulpit and educated the citizens on everything the Lobby has done. - American
Any American president who tried to challenge the Israel lobby would be immediately cut down through a wide variety of tools and methods. - Sean McBride
Look at what happened to Jimmy Carter, George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. - Sean McBride
The protest about Gaza would be magnified 100,000xs if the public knew how they had been conned, raped and suckered by I-First and politicians. - American
The Israel lobby largely owns and controls the mainstream media -- the American public will never be informed about these matters as long as this situation exists. - Sean McBride
'' challenge the Israel lobby would be immediately cut down'....I disagree. The lobby has succeeded on its lies, propaganda and that of its bought politicians. Whole story ever revealed to the public by a US president and its curtains for the lobby. - American
American -- you greatly underestimate the power of the Israel lobby -- and the subtlety and sophistication of ops that can be brought to bear to destroy any public figure. - Sean McBride
'' The Israel lobby largely owns and controls the mainstream media"....yea it does... BUT the 'executive' can command as much of the media for any public address he wants...they cant refuse to air any ' address' to the public the executive demands. We just havent had any president who would do it. - American
George H.W. Bush tried to do precisely that and he was cut off at the knees. - Sean McBride
The only power the lobby has is media propaganda control and politicians..as said, if anyone ever bust those----its curtains--- - American
The power of the lobby extends far beyond media and political influence -- you are really not seeing the big picture here. - Sean McBride
GWH bush didnt go far enough, that why he didnt succeed----he didnt expose the lobby and name the names in congress who went against him and explain their treason--if he had everything about the lobby would have blown up then. - American
Imagine if ronald regean with his popularity had done this for instance----would have been immediate death for the lobby to go against the gipper. - American
The lobby would have caught wind of plans to do something like that well in advance and stopped it before it was executed. Their intelligence network in the United States is probably superior to that of American intelligence services. - Sean McBride
Yea I do...you over estimate their power....their power primilary rest on the cowardice and career self interest of politicians. Consider how one leader turned Germany--- - American
Leaders are just fronts for powerful special interests -- they make and break "leaders" with the greatest of ease. - Sean McBride
I have no idea why you want to over estimate or idealize the lobby's power ---we just have to see that differently. .. their entire network could be crashed by the right person in the WH..not that that is likley to happen. - American
American -- you seem to have a fundamental misconception of how politics works in general. Politics is theater -- it's stage-managed -- with investors, producers, directors, scriptwriters and actors. You are too much focused on the actors -- the bottom of the food chain. Actors are entirely disposable entities -- hirelings. There is always another pretty face who can be paid to read lines. - Sean McBride
Earth to sean---you still dont get it----a leaders could appear to be bought to attain power and then be the 'trojan horse 'of the jewish israeli camp and bring it down. Thats what I would do---tell them whatever they wanted to hear and once in power cut their throats. The reason a president doesnt do this isnt just his own political re election its the 'party' ---what it would do to the partiy's campaign coffers---but you never know---a rebel might come along and do just what I said. - American
Believing that any American president could buck the Israel lobby is like believing in the tooth fairy. It is not going to happen. - Sean McBride
Presidents are worried about their lives after the presidency and the lives of their family members and loved ones. - Sean McBride
If I thought the lobby was that invincible I be working harder on my call 1- 800 -Swat- Team solution. - American
And you would be immediately swatted down. - Sean McBride
When the number of billionaires who oppose the Israel lobby exceed the number of billionaires who support the Israel lobby, you may see change. But as matters stand now, most billionaires have been coopted by the Israel lobby. Supporting the Israeli government is in their self-interest. Opposing the Israeli government would be very much not in their self-interest. - Sean McBride
How many billionaires are willing to die for israel?......money isnt everything in this. The fear for their lives and families you ascribe to Obama and others who go against the lobby/israel works just as well on zionist. - American
Well if the lobby could tank the entire US economy then the thing to do would be to simply eliminate the individuals with their fingers on that trigger....as many as it takes to disfuse the threat....I am sure many nonjewish/zionist finanical elties would have no problem with that solution. The problem you have with all this as I see it is thinking non jewish and other interest wont use the same tactics on the zionist as they use on others. Believe me they would if push came to shove. - American
American -- if you think you can get into a *physical* confrontation with the Israel lobby, you are living a dream world. You don't seem to be fully cognizant of the organized forces that are lined up against you. You really should drop that line of thinking. - Sean McBride
The only realistic way to try to move the needle on these issues is by using social media as skillfully as possible. And that may not even work -- Israel has developed many plans, procedures and ops for dealing with challenges from social media. - Sean McBride
'' American -- if you think you can get into a *physical* confrontation with the Israel lobby, you are living a dream world. You don't seem to be fully cognizant of the organized forces that are lined up against you. You really should drop that line of thinking. - Sean McBride'.....LOL..Yea, King George told my ancestors the same thing and look what happened. This is no physical confrontation with the lobby only becuase no one' has chosen' to use it...yet. - American
What do you think the Mossad file on you already looks like? Especially considering that violent scenarios are on your mind? - Sean McBride
It's a safe bet that they already possess your telephone records, email records, Web browsing records, financial records, medical records, court records, tax records and many other types of personal information -- along with those of your family members and associates. And they know how to use them. - Sean McBride
'' It's a safe bet that they already possess'.....oh me I am soooo scared. Not. You keep missing the point. If a rebel president ever took to the bully pulpit and exposed the lobby at least 'half' of all americans would go nuclear against the treasonous lobby------so just what do you think the lobby could do with all their records in the face of 150 million pissed off citizens. Nothing. - American
Are you under the impression that you are immune from being opped by zealots whose cage you have rattled? Do you fully understand what can be done with large personal datasets in terms of black ops? - Sean McBride
I am hardly important enough to concern the zealots and even I was I wouldnt care. - American
Anyone who has made more than a few hundred posts that are critical of Israel on influential social media (like Mondoweiss) is on their radar. If you have even hinted at committing violence, you are no doubt pushed to the top of these lists -- and have provided the US government with the justification for collecting all the personal data mentioned above. (The Israeli government, of course, is not constrained by American laws on these matters.) - Sean McBride
Are there any people in your life you care about besides yourself? - Sean McBride
Regarding clever and innovative ops directed at individuals: can you name some of them? - Sean McBride
'' Regarding clever and innovative ops directed at individuals: can you name some of them? - Sean McBride)...Uh?...I am not the one who has said the lobby has clever and innovative ops. So you name them. I see them as the same old common dirty tricks and mafia tactics as any gutter thugs. - American
We are talking about Mossad-level activities -- not AIPAC-level activities. Educate yourself on the subject. That is an entirely different ball game. - Sean McBride
I promise you Mossad is not going to attack me. - American
It doesn't have to be Mossad -- anyone operating at that level, and there are independent and rogue groups out there that keep a very low profile -- who are invisible. You claim to know their redlines on no realistic basis. - Sean McBride
6 years of Obama and we are still blaming Bush this administration not the Bush Administration armed ISIS to topple the house of Assad. Then this administration decided to let the Russians solve the Assad problem you know their biggest ally. Now we have problems all over the place that are all happening as a result of projecting weakness. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
Eric -- neoconservatives sought to reduce the Mideast to chaos (thereby weakening Israel's enemies), and they used Bush to successfully achieve their goal. With regard to projecting "strength" -- what do you propose? (By the way, your talking points are straight from Fox News.) - Sean McBride
My talking points are the facts I don't even watch Fox News. I hardly watch TV at all. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
Eric: any thoughts on this? [Google; isis OR isil mossad http://www.google.com/#q=isis...] - Sean McBride
Eric: how do you propose that the United States project strength in the Mideast without triggering even bigger shitstorms than we are already seeing? How many more American dollars are you willing to spend on these projects and how many more American lives are you willing to sacrifice? - Sean McBride
The Engineered Destruction and Political Fragmentation of Iraq. Towards the Creation of a US Sponsored Islamist Caliphate. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-des... - Eric Logan from FFHound!
Ok, Eric -- interesting article -- definitely outside the bounds of Fox News. - Sean McBride
Eric -- I do agree with you on this: Barack Obama is certainly at this point fully responsible for American foreign and domestic policies -- and for both their successes and failures. I find myself strongly disagreeing with him on several policies -- but also thinking that matters could be much worse. - Sean McBride
You can make the argument that it started under Bush, but it sure as hell has not stopped under Obama. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
You are absolutely right, Eric -- I understand your argument now. - Sean McBride
America, you are really idealistic....wish you were right about the power of the American people to make change. Once upon a time, yes. But something happened along the way that dulled the senses and undermined whatever values were held in common. Not for everyone, but for way too many. Sometimes i think we all have a tendency to associate primarily with those of our circles (including... more... - Danaa
Also, re your argument American, I'll bring Exhibit A: Ron paul. he said all the right things about foreign policy, he was popular among conservatives and libertarians, he won straw polls, he took on the lobby. And? - Danaa
on the left you had denis Kucinich. same story as paul, on the democratic side. You have to solve these two puzzles first before going to the next level. - Danaa
Naw, I'm not really idealistic about the masses. What I do believe in is the 'nature' of the zionist, the nature of politicians and the nature of the masses. Because of the nature of the zionist and the politicians there will be some last straw dropped on the country and then the masses will turn---that pretty much been the entire history of mankind---nothing last, not the good or the bad. - American
Chu_
even if fink was weak on BDS, he is still a good critic of Israel. - Chu_
comment on youtube: צה"ל שרה כוהן‎3 hours ago Fuck this Islamofascist - Chu_
Norman Finkelstein is really a very effective speaker and does a great job presenting the side of the pro-Palestinians, in taking down the Hasbara points one by one. It is indeed too bad he hasn't found it in his heart yet to come all out in favor of BDS, since he would have been a good presenter of that as well. As I listened to him, I found myself lamenting that he can't sem to go... more... - Danaa
The effectiveness of Finkelstein and Chomsky on 85% of the issues is why I can't go overboard in attacking them. It's not for nothing they are interviewed on all the alternative channels. Yes, I know, they have a special dispensation for being jewish. Just as khalidi sometimes gets to say his piece (and he is quite effective as well) but only because he is Arabic. - Danaa
IMO, there needs to be a push to get more non-Jewish, non-palestinian scholars out in front of the cameras. Yes, there are walt and mearsheimer, and sometimes Flynt leverett (who is married to a jewish person so OK), but that's not enough. I would love to see someone of the caliber of Finkelstein speaking on the I/P issue who is neither jewish nor Arabic. I know there's Chris hedges but.....we need more. - Danaa
Amy Goodman likes to put fellow Jews on Democracy Now. - pepsi
i like fink, he's not a uppity guy. But his BDS stuff was something I'd expect from MJ. But he still cares about the people suffering in Gaza. At this point for Israel Gaza is like a real estate issue. They cant figure out, nor can their congressional tools. Israel never has a plan, being such an ally of the western powers (cant they wrap this up?). Can't the media ask this question?... more... - Chu_
Why can't you make an interesting, or at least a pertinent comment, pepsi, just once in a while? do try - it's not so hard.... - Danaa
Chu, you should know (well, I'm sure you do) that gaza drives israelis absolutely nuts. They just can't figure out how all the great jewish brains and jewish military strategist and political geniuses just can't seem to come up with something that would do hamas in once and for all. The latest and the bestest scheme they are trying is to accuse hamas of child "sacrifice' a la Weisel. Now, really? so much genius for this one pathetic travesty of a line? what are we - biblical hordes? - Danaa
Also, israel really does have a plan for gaza. one they feel the US can sort of go along with. It's just the rest of the world that won't. A real problem, that. The world. - Danaa
Oh, they have a plan- keep them on a diet and mow the lawn. What genius. Brought to you by the people of the Warsaw ghetto. Unreal how stupid it all is. - Chu_ from Android
Sean McBride
Once again, Dan Crowther is arguing that sinister non-Jewish parties in "the West" are responsible for the behavior of Israel and Zionists http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
The Chomskyite point of view. - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT (my comment) - Sean McBride
Dan Crowther, <blockquote> My frank opinion is that Jews in Israel and their Jewish supporters worldwide are being took, by Uncle Sam and the West generally. </blockquote> - Sean McBride
Which sinister non-Jewish parties in the West are manipulating and victimizing ADL, AIPAC, the Conference of Presidents, Goldman Sachs, Haim Saban, Jewish neoconservatives, JINSA, Mossad, NJDC, RJC, Sheldon Adelson, etc. -- coercing them to be passionate Jewish ethnic and religious nationalists? Demanding that Israel continue to expand settlements into Greater Israel against the wishes and will of Western governments? - Sean McBride
Please be specific -- names of groups, organizations and individuals. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
My prediction: few names will be named, if any at all. - Sean McBride
Crowther has some personal corn cob up his ass. I believe he is the one that wrote long ago about all his personal gripes about his 'station in life' and all the 'raw deals' he got and blames it on dastardly upper classes and elites. Similar displacement as someone who comes up with a group or person to blame for everything that happens to them---he's transfered that attitude to the US... more... - American
Crowther: "For centuries Jews were like the bailiffs for the ruling classes, doing a lot of the dirty work. Seems like not a lot has changed. So, if anything that rallying cry should be: We’re getting taken for a ride by the same crowd that incited anti semitism when it suited them and were indifferent to the Holocaust." -His tokyobk response is confusing. But here he is implying that... more... - Chu_
other comments: crowther ""If Americans only knew" is bullshit propaganda. It assumes that if Americans did know, they would do something about it, because Americans are good and decent people." ~ wow bullshit propaganda.* very bright guy. semper fi! (kidding) - Chu_
I still want to know about Donald....I dont like him and am going ater him even if I get banned---he's a foil of some kind and Phil evidently thinks none of us notice. - American
On forums like MW, you just have to let people disagree with you no matter what their motives or agendas. Simply debate them with as much skill as possible. - Sean McBride
why bother getting banned? Donald is groomed by MW. You can disagree, but Annie is often not much better. Just graze over them and look for the good comments. Or just challenge him w/o crossing the line (the mods will do that for you anywyay.) - Chu_
Well I will see far I can go....Donald is a liar,liars piss me off but I will try to be cool. However its all so repetitive its boring and when bored with blah blah I tend to dump it in the garbage...I am wondering if its worth the time. - American
# Key don'ts in debating: don't 1. abuse 2. bluster 3. boast 4. brag 5. bully 6. complain 7. distort 8. feud 9. gloat 10. harangue 11. harass 12. lecture 13. preach 14. rant 15. ridicule 16. sermonize 17. shout 18. swagger 19. take the bait 20. threaten 21. whine - Sean McBride
Not that I follow my own advice all the time -- but I regret it when I don't. - Sean McBride
21. whine - isn't that what a comments section is for? lol. Look at all the WaPost comments - it's nothing but whining. i think that's why it's easy to break the logjam of whiners with some good hard facts. The whiners are especially are offended by 'facts'. (not going overboard like hostage, but a few meaty tidbits to get them salivating is all it takes) - Chu_
Clean hard factual sentences, expressed with elegance, brevity and calm, easily dominate verbose emotional pitches. Master the craft of constructing them. - Sean McBride
Never let your opponent throw you off balance -- stay on your calm center. - Sean McBride
Chaos 4700 used to get very hot-headed, and so does Cliff. Actually both were/are good at turning the heat up on these troll-charlatans. Their arguments are so pathetic, they often should be banned. People want to yell at them (just like at a any real party) to shame them into leaving. - Chu_
American, you could also tell Donald in a nice way his routine is getting stale. Crowther called him a 'Tom' (lol) just yesterday and it passed. - Chu_
I have a cat named Tom. Should he be offended? (no, he is not a Chomskiite, but he sure chomps....) - Danaa
The comment at the head of this thread hasn't been cleared yet. - Sean McBride
meow... - Chu_
''meow''.....lol....I have an old yellowed framed cartoon of the Gafield cat in which his owner, whats his name, is petting and playing with him and then Garfield turns on him and swats him with a paw and says..... 'I'm thru playing now.'' - American
Well I admit to occasional failings of abuse -. bully - feud -harass-rant and ridicule when I reach my Garfield cat limits.. But I dont boast--brag- complain - distort - gloat - sermonize or whine. Maybe I will ignore him. - American
One good thing----I just got another call for donation to the "Dems"and told the girl nicely no and that Gaza was just the last straw for my family with the Dems----I was floored cause she said..."I know, I've heard that". She said who can we vote for though and we had a short chat about Greens and independents---maybe Gaza got to more people then we think. - American
Chu_
maybe it's me, but his tone seems embarrassed & defeated about Israel. Mentions 'unity agreement', that Israel has been desperate to stop. - Chu_
ziocane hangovers are probably unbearable. - Chu_
Jewish leftists will jump either in the direction of Gilad Atzmon or in the direction of Likud Zionism -- there no longer exist any progressive, liberal or moderate expressions of Zionism. Jewish critics of Israel on the left have had no impact on Israeli policies -- and Israeli and Zionist culture is moving inexorably towards the religious/racist right. - Sean McBride
Chomsky has been an enabler also in refusing (lying about) the core of the problem. - American
Noam Chomsky should be embarrassed. AS a person of his staure, he could have done more Note: One tweet about Gaza in the last 3 weeks, which basically blamed the US gov't, instead of the systemic pyramid that enables these war crimes. I think he should revisit his BDS positions. Israel needs to be SANCTIONED . they are an abusive rogue state that is coddled by the West. - Chu_
I doubt if they will jump to Atzmon.....the more heat the more they will circle the wagons...not in defense of what Israel did but in using Jewish criticism of it to maintain some semblence of Jewish oppositon and morality to the actions of Israel...but they will never address the core of it that Atzmon writes about....or what Max exposes either. - American
Cynical me is guessing that Chomsky got some jewish help in making himself a 'stature'.....as a gatekeeper for not blaming jews for the jewish lobby that governs US policy on Israel.----always gotta maintain that 'no fault' position for jewish inspired/related problems. - American
I disagree about camps they'll be force to go into: LikZios or Atzmon. They'll form another camp somewhere in between. what's that saying 'Two Jews, three opinions' - Chu_
maybe, chomsky in the vid looked like he drank the last glass of 'kool aid'. We'll have to see. - Chu_
You think Max is focusing on that?...he always seems much more a realist to me and not into the religious or mythical prophetic at all...but maybe he is and I havent seen it. - American
Jewish leftists like Noam Chomsky have failed to come to grips with the central role of Judaism and the Jewish lobby in Israeli and Zionist politics. In fact, they have worked hard to suppress and censor meaningful discussion about those topics. Bottom line: they have failed to exert any influence on the Israeli government and the Israel lobby -- they don't even dare to allude to the most significant problems. - Sean McBride
You wonder watching Chomsky, if it enters into his mind the power that he has to motivate people. Chomskyites are a dedicated breed. He says 'frog', and they say 'how high'. Too bad he pussed out on BDS. He needs to reconsider that Israel is not going to change. He points the finger at US Gov't, but that is one step of the mastaba pyramid. - Chu_
I would love to see a side by side between the old cadre (cf Chomsky) and the new cadre (cf. max Blumenthal). Poor Chomsky looks more and more like Goldstone to me. How did these jewish elite establishment "intelligensia" get such a powerful hold over the likes of Chomsky and Slater? what is it that prevents a normally astute mind like Chomsky's from comprehending and seeing the... more... - Danaa
There - I have an idea (with regard to the difference between Chomsky and greenspan) - it's all about the love! somehow the likes of Chomsky ended up giving their heart to a hooker (Israel/zionism) who they thought, hoped, had a heart of gold. Well, it turns out she was a borg clone and heart was irrelevant. Whereas Greenspan just staked a reputation, and what is reputation between... more... - Danaa
One more thing - looking at Chomsky (and I didn't finish watching the segment) I am beginning to understand why Israel always demands LOVE (which is where Obama is a suspect - no love there, just politics). Once they get the heart, the brain is easy pickings. That's what they must have done to the US Jewish zios and think they have done to the Christian zios. That's got to be it - it's a love affair gone bad - the lovely mistress turned out to be a cold-hearted dyke on bike.... - Danaa
All cults demand LOVE -- absolute devotion -- from their followers, otherwise they wouldn't survive. Cults require that cult followers entirely abandon their rational faculties and be lifted up and hypnotized by an emotional surge. And this is why nearly all of them end very badly. - Sean McBride
Cults are con games and rackets that focus on picking the pockets of vulnerable marks. - Sean McBride
"That's got to be it - it's a love affair gone bad " - what we need is Sean Hannity for President. We know where his heart lies with our closest ally. - Chu_
Chomsky looks like his hooker just stole his wallet and beat his ass down. He's so deflated, why, he cant even go to the police. ~ as they've been bought off as well. What's a fella to do? - Chu_
I'd say Greenspan apologised because it was all he could do. He let the animals out of the barn and lit a fat stogie and threw the matchbook into the hay and watched the barn burn. It was more of a CEO corporate 'I'm sorry' apology though. Wasn't it? - Chu_
Mostly Chomsky seemed very old. Tired and slow. - WJones
He *is* old (85 years old). - Sean McBride
As to a debate between Chomsky and the new guard, yes it would be interesting. - WJones
There is a debate between Chomsky and the ADC on the topic of the Lobby, and an interview with Chomsky by Allison Weir that was debate-like. Allison Weir is something like the new guard. - WJones
Here is Allison Weir's debate-like discussion with Chomsky: www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_LygPVxY8A - WJones
Cult enthusiasts and zealots often look like they have lost their minds -- and they have. Look at the crazy eyes of so many Israeli settlers -- no one is home. Cult followers are all interchangeable clones of one another. They have undergone a process of deindividuation -- assuming that any of them were individuated in the first place. - Sean McBride
Chomsky says at 39:30 that if "you go back a couple of decades, Israel was one of the most admired countries in the world." Do you think that this is true? What about Canada, Western or Central Europe, Switzerland, or Sweden? A couple of decades ago would be the 1960's to 1970's. I think that the Israeli State was not really so admired among Muslim countries back then though, and that is about what, 25% of the world? - WJones
42:43: "There are lots of analogies to South Africa, most of them pretty dubious in my mind." And this is from a person who says that it's worse than South Africa. - WJones
that it's worse than South Africa." - what's worse than S Africa? - Chu_ from Android
'' it's all about the love! somehow the likes of Chomsky ended up giving their heart to a hooker (Israel/zionism)..danaa)....Bingo. Love is blind. - American
Other ways to read this feed:Feed readerFacebook