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Danaa › Comments

Have any of you been successful in persuasively discussing Israeli policies with their militant supporters?
One of the more disconcerting things is that I don't see a way to persuade otherwise seemingly leftwing pro-Israeli nationalists that they should not be crushing Palestinians, who are very persistent in defending the harsh treatment. I see Palestinians, including Christian villages, suffering while America backs it, and feel helpless. Meanwhile, strong nationalists inhabit Christian forums and constantly repeat a very harsh viewpoint favoring occupation and targeting Palestinians. They don't really lay out, in my opinion, an open explanation of their motivations for their views since on other issues many of them are very left wing. They don't say, for example, "I was raised this way, this is my community and nationality, and my culture tells me to very strongly support its nationalism when it's in conflict with other groups or values." What they will say is things like the nationality was persecuted without a state, it needs its own state, there are other nation states, there are... more... - WJones
Explaining why some of those claims aren't true doesn't seem to do any good, as they will argue or ignore things ad absurdam. although they will occasional make "out of character" comparisons between Israeli policies and Jim Crow or conquering the Indians. Like Rabbi Buchdahl, they might not actually be well accepted in Israeli society because they don't belong to the correct... more... - WJones
Even if the UN imposed a 2SS, liberals in the media and politicians changed their tune like the UK parliament, or the state became more openly discriminatory and right wing, it seems like militant nationalists would still make the same arguments about how nationalism is good and <strikethrough>Palestinians</strikethrough Arabs are bad, and support efforts to take over Jerusalem and... more... - WJones
Most Zionists are irrational and highly emotional cultists -- you can't reach them through logical arguments, facts, appeals to pragmatic self-interest, the invocation of universal ethical and moral standards, etc. Zionism=messianic ethno-religious nationalism -- these folks are off in their own world -- off the reservation. - Sean McBride
Never! And I"ve been at it for 40 years! - Taxi
Agree with Sean and Taxi. I've rarely found "militant supporters" of any cause to be receptive to other people's ideas....but zionists are in a class by themselves. - weareone
My question for Phil for the Telesummit, based on his experience in years of interactions, is this: What motivates the PEPs to value militant nationalism to the exclusion of leftist values? Just saying that they are nationalist or intolerant does not explain what makes them this way, and I am afraid that it is hard to get a direct answer from them. Their first answer that Muslims are... more... - WJones
The agenda of many PEPs is transparent and consistent -- it's all about the pursuit of group interest. Liberalism is good for the group in the Diaspora; racism and fascism are good for the group in Israel. From which one must conclude that Diaspora liberalism in some cases has been bogus all along -- a Machiavellian stratagem -- a battering ram for knocking down the established powers that be (in many cases, "Euro-Christians"). - Sean McBride
The way they resolve the contradiction may be saying that normally countries should be based on separation of church/ethnicity and state, but in the case of Israel or other previously persecuted nationalities, it's necessary for security. Palestinians need to be relocated safely because their inconvenience is less important than the _existential_ safety of Israelis due to pervasive... more... - WJones
Their explanations for their self-contradictory behavior are intellectually dishonest -- useful only as specimens to deconstruct. - Sean McBride
Over the decades, I have tried the sweet-talk, the sweeter-talk, and yet the sweetest honey-drippest talk methods with ziofucks and it didn't work. Over the decades, I've submitted thousands of historic and legal documentation to back up my argument and STILL no shift in their thinking. For the past 10 years, I've mostly been using the mallet-on-head method and that doesn't seem to work either, but at least I enjoy this method so I'm sticking to it ;-) - Taxi
taxi, I only tried a couple of times before realizing that I was speaking to members of a cult, and therefore they are impervious to reason. Could reason have worked with members of the David Koresh branch davidians? does it work with certain mormon sects? probably only with those on the edge, who are already trying to get out. I spent time studying the patterns of someone like Witty,... more... - Danaa
Their fragile sense of self is completely enwound with their identification with Israel and Zionism -- without that prop, they would fall to pieces psychologically. Classical cult syndrome. When you challenge the ground of their being, they become fearful and violent -- to lose their belief system would be equivalent to dying. Thus the high level of verbal abuse and personal attacks from pro-Israel activists -- they feel intensely threatened by any questioning of their beliefs -- they are quick to lash out. - Sean McBride
Annie doesn't seem to understand what i am talking about, yet answers my questions about it at length: - WJones
I noticed that. - Sean McBride
Am I trying to swim in a non-viscuous fluid? I am trying to explain to her something but am incapable of it. - WJones
I try to ask her what are the motivations for PEPs, in order to understand where they are coming from, and she basically says they are hypocrites like intolerant people in America. I said OK, but why are they choosing to be that way, when they are normally liberal? Just saying that they are hypocrites or motivated by their ideas or positions in society doesn't explain why liberal people would be. - WJones
It can be taxing -- a real challenge to one's patience. - Sean McBride
Sean, is there a better way that I could phrase my question to Annie? I seem to be asking her the same thing over and over: - WJones
I think you've hit a stone wall with which I am quite familiar -- banging one's head bloody on it is not advised. - Sean McBride
There is an irrational subtext in these exchanges with Mooser and Annie that is impossible to discuss in a reasonable way. This is an intensely emotional topic for them. - Sean McBride
Why should it be so intense and emotional for Annie, though? Are her close friends PEPs, or what? - WJones
She hasn't been very transparent or forthcoming about that question, which has been directly addressed to her several times. - Sean McBride
How would you reword my main question to make it as clear as possible? - WJones
WJones. Give it up. There is no way you could phrase the question that will get you an answer. What I would suggest is that when wondering about PEPS, books on pasychopathology are more likely to provide you with an answer. Besides, why or how would Annie know any more than you do? She is not a PEP, after all, and isn't a member of the tribe. As for Mooser, he knows where he stands and... more... - Danaa
I'll hazard a guess and say that you asking the questions on MW may be seen as a double sword. Since the only good answer is psychological in origin, rather than political or religious or even ideological, providing it for you, the obvious answer, would only mean trouble. So, people will either state things as they are (as I do and a few others) or they'll skirt it in rder to avoid a... more... - Danaa
The other thing I'm wondering about, as I said above - why are you asking Annie? and why are you not addressing my answer(s) - which I provided several times over? stated differently, what's so difficult to understand when you are dealing with members of a culty? ever tried to have a debate with jeohova Witnesses? Jewish lib zios and right wing zios are much the same as the jehovah... more... - Danaa
Danaa, Your explanation that is that it's cult worship and self-identity wrapped up with it, a psychological problem. OK. - WJones
This time Annie repeated four times that it boils down to strong "familial" "programming" and that I should look up what "familial" means. It sounds like she is saying that it's a cultural issue. - WJones
WJ -- what Danna said -- I agree. No matter how you rephrase your questions on this issue, you are going to bang your head against the same irrational stone wall. - Sean McBride
Jones, when they talk about Palestine/Israel they almost want a different set of justice applied. Hophmi explained it once that until all the Jews are restored from the Holocaust he will continue being a fanatic. Also TokyoBK said (this year, but cant find the quote) how Jews in Israel need to feel safe and reassured, which basically supersedes Palestinian's right to self determination.... more... - Chu_
'In reality they suffer from a serious case of Israel-worship, which masks self-worship.' - right on danaa. How is it that you get it, but the other 99% of Israelis and American Zios don't? Must be the scientific analytical background I guess. I think you said you had decent parents also. - Chu_
Chu, I think that actually, many Israelis and American zios do exactly "get" it. They know where they are with the Israel issue and they know why their "hearts" are where they are. They know why they justify the murder of children and many are more than a little aware that there is a plan for a creeping ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. They know the Gazans suffer but their "hearts"... more... - Danaa
I "get" it for some of the reasons that Abigail, and Motti Peled and many other israelis and Stieglitz and 'repentant" american zios do. These reasons have much to do with a process where you find yourself looking at the tribe from the outside in. How each person came to leave the cult and try to undo the programming is, of course, unique to each of us. I wish Chu you were right, and... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- one is reminded of Alfred Hitchcock's [film; Rope; 1948] regarding the psychology in play in some instances. - Sean McBride
"tribal programming" -- noteworthy phrase -- which suggests the associated phrase "tribal deprogramming." - Sean McBride
That's a good analogy Sean. There are other analogies that are more disturbing. Like how did some of the known Nazis, who were otherwise "good" people who cared much for their own families, manage to all that aside when signing on to campaigns against Jews and other undesirables? Some of the answers to israel's collective mentality are found in the many psychological treatises written... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- we need much more scientific research into the psychological dynamics of group psychosis across all human groups -- it's a universal phenomenon, and incredibly dangerous. Human beings in the mass are capable of extreme sociopathic and psychopathic acts against other human groups. - Sean McBride
Max Blumenthal @MaxBlumenthal · 44m 44 minutes ago Advice for Americans who want to avoid contact with Ebola: Turn off the TV and go do some traveling.
Something I finally disagree with Max on. Although I do agree the right hypes the ebola scare for border lock down agenda. - American
However I do think we have reason to be concerned about people entering from ebola stricken regions and the examples we have seen that US hospitals are under trained in how to handle ebola cases. - American
American, none of which shortcomings justify the Ebola hysteria. Why isn't there more fear about MRS antibiotics resistant bacteria? or certain mosquito born diseases affecting huge numbers of people at any time, some of which are fatal? I just read about that Chagas virus making its way into the US from the South. There's a scary condition! - Danaa
I am actually not sure I understand the hysteria surrounding Ebola in the US. Sure it's been a devastating outbreak in West Africa and one that should have been addressed 8 months ago, before it went out of control. But one entering Ebola case and one infected nurse (so far). Does that really justify the hype? - Danaa
not really. The media turns the volume too high on certain topics. I remember this spring/summer when that plane went down going to China. CNN went on about it forever. This was their int'l story, and they have a multitude of guests on and 'analysts' speculating why. Is that story worth more than 5 weeks of coverage and speculation? :I Well, they have the megaphone so they can do... more... - Chu_
Danaa, I dont think the public is in any hysteria about ebola but the media and right wingers are certainly hyping it. That said, I dont think the US hospital system as a whole is getting the kind of training and information they need for things like ebola and many other virus making their way in due to global travel these days. I was talking about this with a friend who is a OBGYN that... more... - American
One of the funniest examples he mentioned that I know we have all seen is the 'mask' things you some times see people wear during flu season and one tells them the difference in different masks---that most of the ones you see are only good to keep you from breathing germs on others, not to prevent you breathing in germs or virus other unmasked people might be spreading. Most of... more... - American
Topics and terms that I am paying attention to with regard to Ebola: airborne, exponential, geometric, mutation, pandemic. This morning's lead stories: 1. Second Health-Care Worker Infected with Ebola in Dallas 2. WHO: Ebola cases could hit 10,000 a week 3. Ebola death rate hits 70%. A major mutation of Ebola could develop into a Black Swan event -- I'm not "chillin'" about this story. - Sean McBride
From the standpoint of scientific propaganda, hasn't the Ebola scare put a major drag on efforts by the neocons to use ISIS/ISIL to restart and escalate the Iraq War and the Long War? Most Americans are more concerned about Ebola than ISIS. Fox News can't decide whether it should be fearmongering about ISIS or Ebola -- its attention has been splintered. - Sean McBride
The media has so many fear mongering campaigns going they are like cats on hot tin roof, jumping up and down from one to the other. Whats happening though is most of the pubic gets tired of hearing it when they don't see any doomsday around them and tunes out. - American
Effective propaganda needs to focus on one fearmongering narrative at a time if you want to move the political needle -- two or more fearmonging narratives merely create confusion and generalized anxiety. - Sean McBride
[Google > ebola > Past week > Sorted by relevance] - Sean McBride
[Ebola Has Killed More Than 200 Doctors, Nurses, And Other Healthcare Workers Since June] No big deal. Chill out. - Sean McBride
Danaa is an asset
Danaa, What is the real story on the Rabin assassination? - WJones
There are some things in English, but there is not that much that talks about the the different possibilities of what could have happened. Is there more in Hebrew? - WJones
Mondoweiss had a story about how there was a "Din" or some religious ceremony that took place against Rabin. Are we to think that it was just two to three people acting by themselves? - WJones
Did you know that John F. Kennedy Jr. was aggressively investigating the Rabin assassination for George Magazine when his plane went down near Martha's Vineyard? - Sean McBride
[Google; john f. kennedy jr. rabin assassination] - Sean McBride
[Google; john f. kennedy jr. rabin assassination george magazine] - Sean McBride
Yeah but I want to see what the Hebrew info says. - WJones
Yes I knew that. - WJones
For Rabin assassination see the film: the Gatekeepers - Chu_
Googling into the Yitzhak Rabin assassination (just the tip of the iceberg, of course): - Sean McBride
# [Google; yitzhak rabin assassination *] 1. avishai raviv 2. barry chamish 3. benjamin netanyahu 4. blanks 5. bodyguards 6. din rodef 7. ehud sprinzak 8. general security service 9. gush emunim 10. hagai amir 11. henry makow 12. incitement 13. jewish terrorism 14. john f. kennedy jr. 15. john f. kennedy jr. george magazine 16. mossad 17. murder in the name of god 18. patsy 19. shimon peres 20. shin bet 21. the gatekeepers 22. yigal amir 23. yigal amir smile 24. yoram rubin - Sean McBride
There is a line of conspiracy thinking that suspects that the same parties were behind the James Forrestal assassination, the John F. Kennedy assassination, the Robert F. Kennedy assassination, Iran-Contra, the Yitzhak Rabin assassination, the John F. Kennedy Jr. assassination, Monicagate, 9/11, the 9/11 anthrax attacks and dozens or hundreds of other connected incidents. This material is easy to Google. - Sean McBride
It sounds like guesswork. - WJones
Some of the arguments are more fact-based than others -- it depends on the analyst. - Sean McBride
You can judge for yourself regarding the material on each topic -- for instance: - Sean McBride
# [Google; john f. kennedy jr. plane *] 1. assassination 2. bomb 3. cover up 4. explosion 5. murder - Sean McBride
I meant that seeing them as part of a single organization seems like guesswork. - WJones
Some guesswork about which groups and interests are the supreme powers in the world are better than others. - Sean McBride
Barry Chamish is the only one I've seen with something coherent, and even he is pro-Israeli-aggression. From B Chamish's POV why would they want to get rid of Rabin if TPTB are pro-Palestinian? - WJones
Isn't Barry Chamish a Kahanist (or former Kahanist)? One gets the impression that he tried to divert attention from the real culprits behind the Rabin assassination -- unless you want to argue that Shimon Peres has been a Likud Zionist playing a double game by falsely presenting himself to the world as a liberal Zionist (and a leader of the two-state solution). - Sean McBride
[Wikipedia; Barry Chamish] - Sean McBride
<<My family was forced to read front page newspaper accounts of my fictional life: I was... a follower of Rabbi Kahane (THE number one crime of the Israeli media), and worse. >> ~Chamish - WJones
Sorry WJones, I actually did not follow a whole lot of the speculation in israel at the time or later. I can tell you one thing though, from what I did see, almost all secular people in israel are absolutely convinced that the killer, wht's his name, acted on the orders of a "Fatwa" issued by his and other rabbis in Israel. Furthermore, the rabin murder sets the religious from the... more... - Danaa
One guy who is likely to know sources and will have links to stories is Richard Silverstein. Why not drop him a note and ask? say you are doing research but don't tell him you are Christian (pick a name other than Jones too). Otherwise he will be suspicious as to possible agenda or zio trolls trying to trick him into something. he has every right to be suspicious of course, as he made many enemies. IF you want I can ask him - he will reply if he has time and the material is handy. - Danaa
But you need to give me some reason for your interest. I know it can be just curiosity but Richard knows I never ask anything out of mere curiosity. - Danaa
It would show how their society works and who runs their country. With Rabin, there were a lot of people there in "pro-peace" mode, even though "pro-peace" was not exactly equal rights there. But then it has gotten to the point where 90% of them support the war on Gaza. The other thing is that if the bodyguards were involved, then it probably wasn't really just religious nuts. The use,... more... - WJones
The Gatekeepers is a series of interviews with the heads of Shin Bet. And a pivitol point they discuss is when Rabin is assassinated. Now they had to worry not about the intifadas etc (their words) but a new Jewish threat existed within that caught them off guard. Good film if you haven't seen it. - Chu_
I seen it - WJones
Another question for Danaa. What is the meaning of the Star of David? Is it just a decoration that Herzl picked up for his publications because it had been associated with his religious community for a few centuries? And did it mean anything to the rabbis centuries ago when they picked it up? - WJones
[What Is the Mystical Significance of the Star of David?] - Sean McBride
1. [Wikipedia; Star of David] 2. [Wikipedia; Hexagram:] - Sean McBride
WJones, I'm afraid I'm not much of an asset. I actually have no idea what the "star of david" represents. I probably learnt it once as part of all those types of lessons meant to engender patriotism and a sense of chosen-ness. Alas, it seems it went into one ear and out the other. All I'd be able to do is what Sean did - appeal to Wikipedia. I think it would probably be better to ask... more... - Danaa
BTW< for those who are interested, Oksana Boyco of RT (program "worlds apart")had a marvelous interview with Richard Dawkins. It's well worth watching. The guy, after all the debates he carried on with believers of all kinds, has definitely mellowed, but his arguments have also deepened. He came to understand that there are hopeless situations for humans where faith offers the only... more... - Danaa
Danaa, Can you let me know if you come across anything worthwhile in Hebrew on what happened to Rabin? There is not that much in English in detail the same way there is about JFK or MLK. - WJones
I did send a message to R. Silverstein asking him about this. - WJones
I'll keep an eye out - I'm sure there is a ton of stuff in Hebrew but I would need some clue as to where the good material is. - Danaa
Of perhaps greater interest: the CIA, FSB, GCHQ, MI6, Mossad, NSA, Shin Bet and Unit 8200 files on the Rabin assassination. - Sean McBride
OK, thanks. Perhaps you can search the webs for it, say for an hour or two, and describe the most interesting things you find. Namely, what is the most direct evidence that it went beyond a few loners. - WJones
<<Of perhaps greater interest: the CIA, FSB, GCHQ, MI6 files on the Rabin assassination. >> Yes. Unfortunately, there is not that much available in English online as there is on JFK and MLK. - WJones
For any situation on the planet, there is a set of people who know the most about it. Moving forward, it is going to be increasingly easy to identify those individuals using automated Big Data mining methods. - Sean McBride
Sean, can you use the automated Big data for hebrew articles? I'm sure the Mossad got its own Big data filter, but what use is it to us? and what use is it if one goes on a fishing expedition? no matter what the filters are, it is still necessary to have an idea of what exactly one os looking for, otherwise it'll take as much time to troll through forests and jungles of big data as it would through a normal search. - Danaa
i would guess that the Big Data would have to have separate compartments for each of the world's languages. After all, for what WJones may be interested in, probably only a miniscule portion of the hebrew articles on the rabin subject have been translated into common, everyday language used by most of the world, cf. English (which most hebrew speakers have a rather pathetic command thereof). - Danaa
Big Data mining and artificial intelligence can perform miracles in the realm of sifting through many terabytes, petabytes or exabytes of data across *all* languages in quest of buried strategic facts and connections that are relevant to specific situations and issues. That's what the buzz is all about on those technologies. - Sean McBride
Big Data mining and artificial intelligence is not something everyday people can have access to at the moment, I think? - WJones
There may be creative workarounds. - Sean McBride
Eg.? - WJones
The article in JFK Jr's George: - WJones
Develop some useful personal connections. That is how Glenn Greenwald and Richard Silverstein have proceeded. - Sean McBride
An important article -- and one which was systematically ignored by the mainstream media. JFK Jr. probably stirred up the wrath of some extremely powerful people. - Sean McBride
One of many reasons I like Friendfeed -- one can easily pick up and continue older conversations -- as in this thread. - Sean McBride
JFK Jr. could have probably won the presidency with the greatest of ease. - Sean McBride
Some Russian articles point out oddities with the official version of events, like the fact that Rabin's shirt has a hole in the front chest area even though he was on film shot from behind. But they don't seem to post what other forces were behind it. - WJones
Peres said in a movie: "Three bullets went through his heart and through the songsheet." But at the hearing to show that it was only two bullets, he was asked: "Did you have a literal meaning in the number three, or did you mean it metaphoricall? PERES: Maybe. The number three has many meanings. The Holy trinity for example. Maybe I meant three... more... - WJones
Mass Media Blacks out Reports Of Israeli Crimes; the ICC Charges Kenyatta Instead of Netanyahu; and Operation Protective Edge Is Forgotten-
"Last month the Russell Tribunal (comprised of international law experts) announced that Israel was guilty of “incitement to genocide,” and that Israel’s long-term collective punishment of Palestinians seemed to be designed to “inflict conditions of life calculated to bring about the incremental destruction of the Palestinians as a group.” Despite that announcement of what has been obvious for decades (not short-term occupation, but long-term extermination), the International Criminal Court has maintained its usual avoidance of pursuing the big fish — like Henry Kissinger, George Bush, Dick Cheney, Tony Blair, Barack Obama, and many others including equally indictable Israeli leaders such as Benjamin Netanyahu — while concentrating on minnows like Kenya’s President Uhuru Kenyatta who became the first sitting head of state to appear before the ICC on charges of crimes against humanity for his alleged role in unleashing a wave of post-election violence during 2007-08." - weareone
"Concerned, decent, and responsible people everywhere must relentlessly demand honest and impartial media coverage of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict which must not be overlooked or forgotten until Palestinians receive justice and reparations for the decades of heinous crimes perpetrated against them by Israeli Jews; they must resolutely resist the Anglo-Zionist Political Corporate... more... - weareone
thanks. linked to that article was another good piece on how 6 corps own 90% of media (2013). No wonder it's so difficult to have balanced discussion. It's a massive media juggernaut. - Chu_
Thanks, Chu. I missed that link--interesting 232 media executives control the information of 277 million Americans. As someone said, they don't call it programming and WMD (weapons of mass deception) for nothing. But here's some good news: 50% of Americans now get their news from the internet and that number increases to 71 % for the younger age ranges. This link is interesting because... more... - weareone
The great thing about web searches is how you can pursue something to almost infinite end. The worst fact about mainstream media is that they obfuscate or don't report on issues, like Israel's growing racism and violent oppression, but they can set the volume level on ebola (drowning out significant issues). Many of us left the mainstream media realm and will never go back to that... more... - Chu_
btw I added you to ff. I was looking for a comment, I thought you made about religion being a sort of mask for political issues, etc wrt Israel I believe. Saw it on my phone this weekend but cant find the thread. anyway, add me back if you can so I can search your comments. - Chu_
I agree--regulation of the internet is already being discussed and we're really going to have to fight it. .And at least, so far, it seems that internet news sites and social media are keeping the spotlight on Palestine even if it's ignored by msm. I don't remember the comment that you mention, but sure, I'll subscribe, if I'm not already. - weareone
I should be subscribed. Was this the comment?... And regarding the religious vs economic motives, at least for zionists, religion (which is a travesty for them) has been used as a cover for economic/hegemonic motives. - weareone
yes. thanks. I thought you had something linked as well. But yes, that sentence says a lot. Was religious persecution at the core of it, or was it economic exploitation that causes much of the friction? A German prop. archive I was reading last week made me think of this - the disparity of wealth. the point was made that each person had 4 times the wealth of the average German. which was seen as economic exploitation. - Chu_
Chu, weareone, I think that in discussing the past of Jewish economy and religion it's important to avoid simplifications or projections from the present (or recent past) onto the deep past. What wearone said is, about religion being a cover, is plenty true about modeern day israel and probably quite a few jewish Americans of the oligarch type. It is obvious that someone like Addelson,... more... - Danaa
I wonder if it's Chas' comment that you're thinking about. American reminded me that it was his comment that was referencing a historical perspective, I think about Germany. It also may have contained a link-I'd have to check back. As I've probably said many times, to put the word zionist before any religion is an oxymoron and desecration of that religion, since zionism is defined by ethnic cleansing and genocide. That's why I said that for zionists, religion is a travesty. - weareone
The situation started to change with enlightenment as more jews came out of the Ghettos at least in terms of loosening the control of the rabbis. neworking and certain cult-like characteristics remained however which is what contributed to jewish economic rise as welll as to the resentment by others around them. - Danaa
Danaa, I'm not very familiar with that history so I defer to others on that. - weareone
Anticipating the comment by some that I am trying to take Jewish economic factors out of the equation I'll say the reverse is true. It's the darn rabbis of many centuries and the religion itself that turned into worship of dusty old pages filled with argumentation about pointless issues That I don't want to take off the hook. However people choose to look at it, Jewish history is an... more... - Danaa
wearone, you are not however wrong, IMO, to say that "for zionists, religion is a travesty". That is true for many in Israel - the secular founders for sure. Except that there arose this hard core group of the orthodox nationalists who seek to combine religion and zionism into a completely unholy, and indeed, obscene, mishmash. This process is unfortunately the one making its way through israeli culture, effectively toxifying everything it touches. - Danaa
wearone, my familiarity with jewish history through the Middle ages is, in fact, a bit shallow because while we were forced to study it ad nauseum, I had the habit of not only tuning out but walking out of the class when the utter boredom and ennui of that existence got to me. I hated and despised those old stories of the jews in the Middle Ages, and their idiotic looking pompous Rabbis... more... - Danaa
In Jewish history, say from 1200's onward were Jews often kept outside of the European realm because of their religious identity or because of economic exploitation (or a combination)? I understand this isn't a simple question. But the archive of german propaganda I read last week brought up the issue of Jews attaining 4 times the wealth of the average German. In the US there is an... more... - Chu_
Danaa, I find much to be admired in the religion of Judaism, as I do in all true religions. For several years, when I was younger, my parents joined the local Jewish community center even though we're not Jewish, and we took swimming lessons. When my parents realized what was really happening in Israel, we stopped going, but I never heard any criticism of Israel when we were there. I... more... - weareone
Danaa, everyone is robbed of something during an occupation. The aggressor or occupier, robs its citizens of their humanity by attempting to deprive them of the experience of recognizing the humanity of others. There are other individual deprivations- for you, it may have been the education you would have liked. But the occupied are deprived of their land, lives and families. imho, even... more... - weareone
I wish I could find the lost article on what archeologist discovered about the role of Rabbis in ancient days. I think it perhaps explains how the religious and economic attitudes of Jews and religious and economic attitudes toward them came together. Maybe I can give a present day example of something similar---a christian group here started a magazine, one of those free ones that are... more... - American
well, maybe they need a christian 'mezuzah'. But a big cross probably works, although not as subtle as a mezuzah. - Chu_
Aggressive tribalism breeds tribalism in others whether its racial or religious or whatever----if people are pushed to their limits they will band together to oppose the other tribes. The irony of this tribalism now affecting more groups in modern times is that "Liberalism" has mainly inspired it----the exalting of special or minority ethnics, races, victim and etc..---is now coming... more... - American
This is one thing I am most critical of in Jewish groups----not so much in black groups because they do have legitimate complaints. But the Jews have demonized the US and Europe to death even though they literally 'owe' their lives and the continued existence of Jews in the world to the US and Europe and allies of WWII. If there was a Nobel for Ingratitude they would get it. - American
aggressive tribalism is leading to neofeudalism. I may one day be lucky enough to live in Castle Soros, perhaps Castle Adelson, oneday. - Chu_
'ingratitude' you say. I was reading a few years ago in the JewishPress that America didn't do enough to save the Jews in WW2. Really ethnocentric style of writing. weiss (broken article) Jewish press is print is more harsh than their online content. - Chu_
If I had a dime for every speech and article by the J-H-Industry blaming the US for letting the Jews die just because they were Jews I could pay off the US national debt. One of the most galling examples I have seen was when fraud Eli Weisl was given some award and hosted at the WH and half his acceptance speech was about the guilt of the US--and the 'whole' world.. Ugh... - American
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Deconstructing John Kerry’s address to the Gaza Donors Conference -
John Kerry's address to the Gaza Donors Conference in Cairo on Sunday was remarkably vacant, if not disingenuous. Reading through Kerry’s address paragraph by paragraph is an exercise in futility. Yet the political ramifications are extreme. Everyone knows that after the Gaza war a profound reckoning is needed. Yet John Kerry – and the Gaza Donors Conference - isn’t even clos
I am still baffled why Israelis and Zionists feel that they can continue their occupation and apartheid without reprisal. - Chu_
Because they are the Jewish chosen and we are ignorant goys and others?---would be my guess - American
Kerry and et al----Walking Dead----left with only a primitive brain stem that propels them to constantly mindlessly search for zionist political money to feed themselves. - American
Whenever John Kerry has tried to challenge the Israeli government, he has been massively and brutally battered by the Israel lobby. - Sean McBride
Sometimes I need to be reminded how special they are. Thanks for the reminder - must return to toil. 'I wanna pull my brain stem out and unplug myself' :D - Chu_
Kerry's address in one word - pathetic. A world power kow-towing to a minor Middle-Eastern thuggish warlords claiming "choseness". Well, we know it's only the money, really. Smartest things Jewish zio-americans ever did - fund the Democratic party and donate generously to academia and think tanks. Oh, and take over the media too. Except - a small voice asks - is it, was it really all... more... - Danaa
Hamas: We will not accept Judaisation of Jerusalem -
"Concluding the statement, Hamas reiterated that it would not accept the Judaisation of Jerusalem and "is ready to pay any price to prevent this from happening," vowing that: "We will do all we can to purify the holy sites from the Israeli occupation. We will never recognise, under any circumstances, any political, demographic or religious changes made to the map." Hamas also called upon the nations and governments around the world to look at what the Zionists are doing in Jerusalem, asking them to take action to stop it." - weareone
good for them. keep these messianic carpetbaggers out. They are lunatics with a bible in hand. 60 Minutes did a story about King David and an Israeli archeologist 4 years ago saying he was using the bible to uncover the ancient city, which of course makes it Jewish property. Stahl is Jewish, so it came off as more ethnic racketeering to say the least. - Chu_
interview excerpt: ""People believe that when King David captured the city, he snuck underground through this tunnel which led him underneath the city wall, up into the city," Spielman said. Half a million tourists visit the site every year, with guides who try to bring King David to life. There's an implicit message: that because David conquered the city for the Jews back then,... more... - Chu_
note Stahl's critique sounds better on paper that through the video, but she gets to the control the narrative here, which I thought it could have been done better. - Chu_
"Ethnic racketeering" is a great term. Also, Stahl was, or still is, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, that tells us everything we need to know about her "qualifications" as a "journalist." imo, all of the talk about King David is hasbara. The simple fact is that the land was stolen from the Palestinians and it must be... more... - weareone
CFR is bad news. It's like a Jewish Frat of Rich People in the upper east side (58 East 68th Street) who seek to bend the government to their desires and group interests. They have Elliot Abrams, convicted felon, only today writing about what should be done with Gaza "Rebuilding Gaza Starts Slowly–Very Slowly"... more... - Chu_
mission statement: "The CFR promotes globalization, free trade, reducing financial regulations on transnational corporations, and economic consolidation into regional blocs such as NAFTA or the European Union, and develops policy recommendations that reflect these goals." - Chu_
see the list of Notable current council members: Paints a grim picture. They got people like Negraponte, Albright, Krauthammer, Poderetz, Pipes, Rubin, etc. quite the NWO exclusive party. - Chu_
That's a great graphic! Thanks. Elliot Abrams, CFR and all of the tentacles are, to turn Madeline Albright's term back on those who have earned it, "a nest of vipers." Also, Palestine has been an exemplary steward of sites sacred to many religions for thousands of years, in stark contract to the diabolical destruction of these sites by zionists. - weareone
Sean, Danaa and I talked about making a giant model of this graph all the associations and connections would be useful to comprehend. A way to see the micro, macro, and global scales would be great data. understanding the six degrees of separation and such. - Chu_
Sounds like a good idea. Could it be distributed on twitter? :) Have to run. Will check back later. - weareone
Wearone, it's quite a project, to be sure. Easy enough to start but requires substantial dedication to complete. Plus My own interests is related but somewhat divergent. I would like to build a network of Ideas, starting from the most overarching ones then branching off into the 'descendants". Four examples of what i would consider overarching ideas: Neoliberalism, Globalism, Zionism,... more... - Danaa
Anyways, it's a work in progress and the goal is to produce a pictorial representation on the "ideas" level. Chu and Sean have been very helpful providing links to different software that can help with the graphics. Once I have something I would like to connect it to the lists and the individual names they come up with. - Danaa
"I would like to connect it to the lists and the individual names..." Danaa, your idea and plan of naming the names and connecting the dots is really needed. - weareone
Emerging Semantic Web technologies provide a powerful framework for realizing this vision: check out RDF, OWL, DBpedia, Wikidata, and related tools and projects. - Sean McBride
Thanks, Sean. I'm familiar with OWL, but not the others, so I'll check them out. - weareone
To bat around these ideas, see Ontological engineering and semantic markup is the name of the game. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- the traditional academic domain that addresses the issues you raise is intellectual history -- the formal study of the role of ideologies in forming human civilization. - Sean McBride
Sean, that is exactly the level I am on right now. I have this feeling that clues, hetherto hidden, still lie in the forests of intersecting human ideologies. Actualy I kind of see it as type of plasma "soup", but every once in a while, a given system undergoes a "phase transition", and bingo! an ideology takes over. That is what happened, I believe, to Neoliberalism (which became the... more... - Danaa
Of course, these analogies can't be taken too far. They are only useful as insight providers. - Danaa
CFR is just a tentacle of a much larger demon. Much has been written on this, so I wish you luck in trying to condense it all. It is, as you say, a very large project. - weareone
These large projects are mostly about getting one's facts lined up in a row within well-designed ontological frameworks. They are relatively straightforward -- collect, organize, graph and analyze the data. - Sean McBride
Increasingly the most important stage in developing large analytic projects is the process of MARKING UP the data -- of assigning metadata to data. Data are only as good as their metadata. One's semantic markup and metadata are only as robust as the ontologies which frame and form them. How many people in the world can think deeply and clearly about ontological issues? -- only a few. - Sean McBride
Sean, I beg to differ here. My interest is less on the connecting of facts and data marking than on the connectivity on a dimension of ideas. For example, Spinoza's ideas may play a critical part in European Enlightenement, but not nearly as much in ithe jewish version of haskala. By the same token, Capitalism and neoliberalism connect on one level but the latter may be only one branch... more... - Danaa
So, no, this is far from a simple project and requires quite a bit of reading through books and essays, not just a collection of names and places. Eventually, I hope that once I find a way to plot the Grand Ideas multi-dimensional diagram pictorially, the next thing will be to populate it with names and lists. So this project is not exactly analytical, except in the sense that Philosophy and religion are analytical. - Danaa
Danaa -- we are actually talking about same thing with somewhat different language -- ideas, ideologies, beliefs, belief systems, etc. are all datapoints. All physical and abstract objects are datapoints that can be semantically connected in unlimited ways. I am not talking about just names and places -- the Semantic Web is about *everything*. It goes much deeper than traditional texts.... more... - Sean McBride
Ideologies and belief systems, and their complex interactions, are eminently graphable with Semantic Web methods. - Sean McBride
Looks like I'll have to invent my own "semantic" thing then. I am just not so interested in learning about formatting or collating bits of information. My own thought process is far more analog than digital. I think I'll be content to leave the detailed lists to you, while i work on my own framework. Besides, we already found (chu and you brought three to my attention) of visual presentation/graphic softwares and in fact, I already picked my favorite. I'm busy reading some books now. - Danaa
Danaa -- FYI -- the Semantic Web is bringing together and integrating a wide variety of methods, including: - Sean McBride
1. analytical philosophy 2. artificial intelligence 3. bibliometrics 4. citation analysis 5. cognitive computing 6. cognitive science 7. computational linguistics 8. content analysis 9. corpus linguistics 10. deep learning 11. discourse analysis 12. intellectual history 13. linguistics 14. literary theory 15. machine learning 16. machine translation 17. mathematical linguistics 18.... more... - Sean McBride
Reading, understanding and connecting *all the texts in the world in all languages* (including all the books and periodicals) is just the tip of the iceberg. In this domain, there are no meaningful distinctions between digital and analog. - Sean McBride
Data visualization is the pretty frosting on the cake -- it's not where the real action is. - Sean McBride
I always liked the frosting best. So do most of the people in the world. Also I like my own invented techniques. Wouldn't want to tread on others' semantic territory now, would I? but then we already know I prefer hardware to software.....and frosting, of course. - Danaa
# Semantic Web methods can be used for graphing and analyzing in microscopic detail patterns of influence in the domains of * 1. architecture 2. elite culture 3. fashion 4. film 5. furniture 6. language 7. law 8. literature 9. music 10. painting 11. philosophy 12. politics 13. popular culture 14. product design 15. religion 16. science 17. sculpture 18. technology - Sean McBride
Original semantic markup languages are interesting, but the more semantic systems can communicate and interoperate seamlessly with another, the better. Imagine the chaos and friction if we were forced to work with dozens or hundreds of incompatible versions of HTML on the Web. - Sean McBride
lingua franca - Sean McBride
Semantic web methods sound fine for those interested in them. if the domains you selected are an example of connected patterns, I must say these are tangential to my own interests. I look for other patterns, sometimes based on linguistic connections (ie, root words) and deeply rooted human needs and greeds, which beget very different grids. To each their own, I say. - Danaa
Danaa -- if you keep an open mind on this subject, and dig around in it a bit, the basic concepts may begin to click in your mind. The main objective here: to build a universal and computational metalanguage for describing the world and everything in it -- with an emphasis on universal, computational and everything. Check out the work at the [World Wide Web Consortium... more... - Sean McBride
From the standpoint of the Semantic Web, traditional texts and all other document types in all media are merely fodder for the development of a global superintelligence. This is a radically disruptive way of thinking about the world for most people. - Sean McBride
Data visualizations are only as good as the data on which they are constructed -- the data is the key thing -- and the conceptual framing of that data. - Sean McBride
Sorry, Sean, semantic web puts me into deep sleep. I think that you don't quite follow what I am after, because you keep providing lists that for me are a much lower level than what I want. If you can turn Slavoj Zizek's or heidegger's writings into a list, that might be a start. Unfortunately, the list may be 1000 pages long if one were to try and break it into bits. I keep saying you... more... - Danaa
Besides, I am not debating what has or will have a big impact on the world. I'm quite sure robotics will have a huge impact on the world, along with the big data software with which they will be equipped. I was only talking about what interests me, one person, with a penchant for the visual arts. - Danaa
Follow your bliss. - Sean McBride
By the way, this is how I would organize semantic triples on Martin Heidegger [Martin Heidegger > semantic triples] One could visualize this data in many creative ways, but I am more interested in the raw data than the visualizations. - Sean McBride
I like these data models, I just need to get into them more and they can always be reinterpreted to visual data that is easy for the common person to review. Also, It's another way of seeing relationships in the abstract. And who knows you may even find an interesting bit that no one else has uncovered or overlooked. I am reminded of when that Aussie amateur astronomer founded a scar in... more... - Chu_
Sean McBride
Zionism: The God that Failed
How will Zionists react when they realize that Zionism, like communism, is yet another God that failed? A false messianic ideology? - Sean McBride
It didn't fail yet. - WJones
Many of them will pretend never to have had any association with Zionism. Zionism -- what's that? - Sean McBride
[Wikipedia; The God that Failed] - Sean McBride
You make comments really fast. are you copying and pasting them in? - WJones
Communism hadn't yet failed when "The God that Failed" was published in 1949 -- but the eventual and inevitable outcome was obvious to astute observers. - Sean McBride
I think fast and type fast -- very fast. (That is why I find the Mondoweiss comment interface to be unbearable.) - Sean McBride
Many Zionists have claimed that Zionism is literally God's special project -- which will make its fall exceptionally precipitous. - Sean McBride
WJones -- I *do* compose and edit all my comments in my streaming notebook/journal -- and then copy and paste them into Web forums. That gives me a full backup of all my writing (including comments) in local files (which in turn are backed up to the cloud). - Sean McBride
Regarding marked up links (like the Wikipedia link just above) -- one-keypress macros create them all, with very little typing. - Sean McBride
Regarding the lists: it takes just a few seconds to pull them up and filter and sort them any which way. - Sean McBride
Regarding turning up noteworthy news items with minimum effort: services like Zite, Prismatic, Google Alerts and Twitter do the job. - Sean McBride
This is why rational people wonder if Zionism has a future: - Sean McBride
# targets of attack by pro-Israel activists in recent months 1. Barack Obama 2. Ben Affleck 3. Bruce Shipman 4. Chris Hayes 5. Europe 6. Gary Oldman 7. Gazans 8. George Galloway 9. Iran 10. Javier Bardem 11. John Kerry 12. Jon Stewart 13. Martin Indyk 14. Metropolitan Opera 15. Penelope Cruz 16. Russell Brand 17. Steven Salaita 18. Sweden 19. The Lancet 20. Turkey 21. United States 22. Zephyr Teachout - Sean McBride
Way too many enemies -- and the enemies list keeps growing. At some point you have to ask yourself -- why do I have so many enemies? Is it something I'm doing? - Sean McBride
'why do I have so many enemies? Is it something I'm doing?' - I don't think they understand the golden rule. Zionists are hypocrites in practice. They want to be coddled by the world, as they oppress and kill others. - Chu_
'' why do I have so many enemies? Is it something I'm doing? - Sean McBride)......They should ask themselves but they never will. Jewishness , in 'general' in the group, is the most extreme narcissism I have ever seen or heard of. They dont question themselves (about Jewishness) because they literally 'worship' themselves--therefore they cant be questioned. I dont think the nazis in... more... - American
There is a very good example of this type of narcissism on MW today in an article about a Rabbi exhorting Jews to love Isr......its filled with the worship of jewishness. - American
What is your WPM? Mine's 55-60, Sean. - WJones
<<Many Zionists have claimed that Zionism is literally God's special project -- which will make its fall exceptionally precipitous.>> Or they basically think that way, even if they are secular. The fall of the Temple in 70 AD was catastrophic. - WJones
In the USSR, people weren't getting more and more conservative every year like in the Israeli state. - WJones
Hypothetically we could get to the point where Netanyahu's Settler party successors will be making crazier anti-Muslim Crusader style speeches like the rightwing Rabbi in Atlanta, but in the UN. You will get the Lobby supporting still it with half of the liberal "pro-Israelis" not really caring. Then you will have more things like the Salaita affair getting attention with the academics becoming more critical. - WJones
Sean, Shouldn't there be some high-tech world political simulator that can map out how all this will play out, perhaps a simulator possessed by several agencies? - WJones
You dont need a high tech political simulator to know how Zio-dom will end. Just consult history, these things always end the same way. 'Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it'----is the truism that keeps on being proven true century after century. - American
# false messianic movements 1. Chabad-Lubavitch 2. Christian Zionism 3. Christianity 4. communism 5. Confederacy 6. Crusades 7. Frankism 8. Italian Fascism 9. Jewish Revolt against Rome 10. Maoism 11. Marxism 12. Marxism-Leninism 13. Nazism 14. Sabbateanism 15. Soviet Union 16. Trotskyism 17. Zionism - Sean McBride
[Wikipedia; Jewish Messiah claimants] - Sean McBride
I don't know why you think that they are going to be disillusioned just because the state has a crisis. The state collapsed for different reasons multiple times throughout history already. - WJones
Jones, what do you mean by collapsed? - Chu_ from Android
Destruction of the Temples. In 70 AD, the destruction was both internal and also external (from the Romans). Internally, there were forces fighting each other. Sadducees vs. nationalists, etc. However there were other periods of self-rule that collapsed (the Maccabees, etc.) - WJones
WJones, it's probably not going to be productive to assume that the jewish state we have now in Israel, bears all that much resemblance to states that existed before, all just because they call themselves "Jewish". The old Jewish states were very much religiously controlled, based on everything we read. The state that existed at the turn of the 1st century was a state in name only -... more... - Danaa
Since Israel of now is not like the Judea of old, and the jews of now are probably tenuous descendants of the middle eastern Jews of old, predictions based on past biblical happenings will probably not be helpful in predicting the future fate of Israel. At this point of time, Israel as it now is, is a truly unique phenomenon among the nations, and as a result I believe the fate of Zionism and israel will be unique as well - Danaa
One clue to how things may transpire in the future may come from contemplating what the modern embodiment of a "temple" is and what form it takes. It does not have to be an actual physical building. It can be a set of strong beliefs about self-identity. Example: ditching the belief in "chosenness" or, its modern version of "superiority" is difficult for jews to do because that would be... more... - Danaa
Danna---playing out all the possible political and conflict events, the nature of the zios and Israel, nature of non Jews in the world, the nature of Judaism, the nature of Christians/ the Churchs lurching both ways on Israel, the effect of world government leaders priorities waxing this way and that on Israel ---what do you see as the future of Israel? - American
That's a big question, American. So, you want me to play prophet, eh? alas I do better as a Delphic oracle.... Short of doing an extensive analysis (which would be surely unwanted) I can try and call upon an analog mode, known as intuition-tapered-by-common-sense. First, it's important not to underestimate the power of Israel and its control through lobbies and organized oligarchs in... more... - Danaa
But holding on is probably a bridge too far, so the expansionists will win. Expansion is in Israel's DNA, from its founding days so there's no reason to believe they will not continue the campaign to take over the West bank. In so doing, and in the periodic bombing of gaza they will continue to alienate increasingly influencial segments of the world, so we can expect more recognitions... more... - Danaa
I am counting on Israel going at some point a step too far at just the wrong time, which will further inflame opinion against them, possibly enough to open a sizeable gap between them and the US. There will be, I'm sure, an inflection point following which things will start to deteriorate real fast. Especially as more and more secular people will emigrate from Israel, which will make a... more... - Danaa
I can see things evolving along this direction only 10 years forward because beyond that the picture starts to get murky. Too many other things will happen in the world. Much much depends on whether the neocon plan to deepen cold war 2.0 will succeed and how Russia and the brics will hold up. There are also serious economic threats - what's a Neoliberal world based on capitalist system... more... - Danaa
All in all, though there is a finite probability (say 20%) that israel will do something really stupid that will turn America away from them decisively. However, the greater likelihood is for a slow deterioration in relationships with the US and Europe. How long this will take until the "iron clad" support for Israel suffers an irreversible "set-back" I can't predict. - Danaa
In the US, I believe that, ultimately, it is up to Americans to help erode the political system's unreasonable, and even crazy, subservience to Israel. I personally feel that too many Americans leave it up to Jewish groups and assorted church groups to lead the way out of bondage. To get through to more Americans will take concerted efforts and a really thick skin to resist the... more... - Danaa
Right now, unfortunately, I don't foresee a grand turn-around, either in the US or in israel in the near-future. Just lots more nibbling at the edges. I wish I could see things otherwise, but inertia is what it is, and I don't underestimate what inertia does to humans. Inertia, the penultimate immovable object. Strangely, whenever i try to peer 20 or so years forward I see only fog. I... more... - Danaa
So many words to say so [relatively] little. Sorry about that. - Danaa
In predicting the future, it's also a good idea to leave room for the possibility of black swan events, sudden surprises, radical disruptions and dislocations, abrupt reversals, unforeseen calamities, cultural earthquakes, subterranean tipping points, etc. -- all of which occur on a regular basis in human affairs. - Sean McBride
The nature of Black swan events is that they are NOT predictable, except perhaps as intuitive leaps. My analysis looking only 10 years forward is decidedly resting on the assumption that there are no quantum disruptions, which, of course, I can't foresee, by definition. The longer the time period looking forward to the future, the greater the likelihood of unanticipated disruptions.... more... - Danaa
Sean McBride
Richard Branson: Join us & add your name to growing list calling for peace, dignity and prosperity for Palestinians and Israelis
Uh oh -- Amalek, for sure. There is no such thing as Palestinians. - Sean McBride
"Millions in Gaza, the West Bank, Israel and many surrounding countries continue to live with the daily fear of bloodshed and violence. It is clear that the use of force will never bring about a long-term solution. Lasting peace will only be achieved through dialogue, held in a spirit of compromise. As business leaders, we stand ready to support every effort that will bring much-needed... more... - Sean McBride
Richard Branson has long been one of my admired businessmen---he's old school and ethical. Too bad there arent more of him these days. - American
I am happy to sign this but before they even get out of the gate they better realize that some force or sanctions are going to have be put on Israel or it will be the same stally- talky farce while more settlements are built that all previous efforts have resulted in. - American
Sorry to be the cynic, but something about this just didn't smell right. I found this about the Avaaz movement promoted by Branson and co: " Avaaz: The Lobbyist that Masquerades as Online Activism" February, Avaaz began a petition against the BDS Movement, a “global movement for a... more... - weareone
"Co-Signatories of Branson's current petition: Sir Ronald Cohen, Chairman, the Portland Trust; Arianna Huffington, President and Editor-in-Chief, the Huffington Post & B Team Leader; Mo Ibrahim, Founder, Mo Ibrahim Foundation & B Team Leader; Jean Oelwang, CEO, Virgin Unite; Randy Newcomb, President & CEO, Humanity United; Jochen Zeitz, Co-Chair, The B Team"...........Sir Ronald Cohen:... more... - weareone
Not surprisingly, they also advocate for a "2 state solution". We know what that means. Personally, I'm for 1S1P1V, pre-1948. - weareone
Is this the same group? - weareone
Now I am mad I was fooled by the Branson name being attached to own fault for not investigating him on Israel. - American
Thanks for sharing that important information -- apparently this is yet another gatekeeping op. - Sean McBride
Don't's not your fault, American. It happens to all of us. There are just too many false flags/scams out there to keep track of them all and these people have spent their lives cultivating the art of deception. - weareone
"apparently this is yet another gatekeeping op." I guess so, Sean. There just seems to be no end to the lies and deception. - weareone
American - beware of wolf in sheep's clothing. Especially if the wolf is an Oligarch which branson is. I heard an interview Okasana Boyco did with him on RT over the Ulraine business. I found him politically naive, susceptible to the western dogma and a bit wishy-washy in a well-intentioned kind of way. My theory: oligarchs do not make good politicians. Not in the US, not in Europe and... more... - Danaa
I was inspired by that Branson interview to write (if not finish) a little essay on just that - why oligarchs can never make good politicians. That BTW was my argument against Romney and I have many examples to bolster my case, from Donald Trump to Khodorovsky to Addelson et al. - Danaa
'' I found him politically naive, susceptible to the western dogma and a bit wishy-washy in a well-intentioned kind of way....Danaa).......I think is accurate take on him--- plus his success has him living in a rarefied world removed from low down realities. And yea oligarch to oligarch is not the same game rules as Zio to Palestines. - American
Sean McBride
Conrad Hackett: US Jews are half as likely (40%) as white evangelicals (82%) to believe God gave Israel to the Jewish people.
The problem here extends well beyond "the Jews" -- this is almost more a Christian than a Jewish issue. And Christian evangelicals vastly outnumber Jews. - Sean McBride
That is misleading though. And I think the fact that they keep pointing out evangelical is telling and obvious. In my observation and investigations most Jews do support Israel *whether or not* they use the' God gave it to Jews' as a justification. For most Jews its all about ego and tribal pride---the bible is just the cherry on top. - American
The stats speak for themselves -- there is nothing misleading about them. - Sean McBride
I do agree evangelicals add to the ''propaganda crap'' --but realistically they have no political power beyond supporting candidates in their districts. - American
Obviously you are not analytical if you don't understand why its misleading. ....and why articles like this are put out. These 'plant' articles are a dime a dozen--the purpose is to throw most of the Isr heat onto the cz evangls by saying there are more crazy cz than there are Jews. Believing or not believing God gave the Jews Israel has not jack shit to do with Jewish and lobby politics on Israel or how many Jews support Israel. Its a red herring. - American
What could be more important than the fact that they vote militantly pro-Israel politicians into office? This is a democracy, right? No one twisted the arms of, say, South Carolina voters to support Lindsey Graham -- they chose to do so. - Sean McBride
Actually, many Christian evangelicals *are* crazier than many Jews -- and they bear a large responsibility for bad American Mideast policies. I don't understand why you want to give them a pass. They are supporting extremist Israeli policies on the basis of their biblical beliefs. - Sean McBride
Oh come on Sean...they vote pro Israel pols in?.....just where in the US do voters have a choice of a pro vr a con Israel politician? Have you see a politician run on a con Israel policy in the last 50 years? ALL of them are pro Israel out of the gate because they are told to be so----particularly by the parties because of campaign donors. So people dont have a choice of a pro or anti isr candidate. - American
I dont give a rats ass about the freaky cz..suit me fine if they all were put in mental institutions. So I am not giving them a pass. YOU keep trying to give the Jews 'a pass'. Wont work, so give it up, we all know that money and pressure for Israel comes from the zionist and jewish community and all their orgs and media and political tentacles - American
Christian evangelicals have played a key role in guaranteeing that American politicians who question Israeli policies never achieve any traction. They have helped lead the charge in attacking any American voices who challenge the Israel lobby. Lindsey Graham is a perfect example. Ted Cruz is another. Rick Perry is another. Think back to the Chuck Hagel hearings, in which Hagel was crucified by Christian evangelicals. - Sean McBride
Rent a brain----you want to compare a few Grahams and Cruz's to the fact that 60% of the Dems entire campaign war chests come from the Jewish groups.? - American
American -- *both* factions are critical to the success of the Israel lobby -- both the Jewish and Christian evangelical factions -- and the military-industrial complex as well, which has made a fortune from Mideast conflicts. You need to take all the factors into account. - Sean McBride
You want to compare the cs and Graham and Cruz to the Jewish Casino king putting millions upon millions into Rommey's the extent that Rommey followed him like a little doggie to Israel to kiss Netanyahu's ass? Follow the f'ng money. - American
Most American christians are not evengelical: - Taxi
Christian evangelicals dominate the Republican Party -- and they don't need funding from Sheldon Adelson to push their militantly pro-Israel agenda. They are true believers -- Zionist ideologues. - Sean McBride
I do take all the factor into account BUT I also know where the bread crumb trail is between them all. - American
The Republican Party used to be a rational and realist enterprise -- Christian evangelicals have completely destroyed that old regime and replaced it with Christian Zionism. They are driven by ideology. Just listen to Mike Huckabee on Fox News, for instance -- he is a religious fanatic. - Sean McBride
The current campaign to fan the flames of Islamophobia on Fox News over ISIS is being spearheaded by Sean Hannity, Megyn Kelly and Bill O'Reilly -- care to guess their ethnic and religious backgrounds? And who do Hannity, Kelly and O'Reilly frequently turn to to push their Likud Zionist agenda? -- Jack Keane, Ralph Peters, Oliver North, Tony Perkins, Liz Cheney, etc. - Sean McBride
And what about the military-industrial complex -- Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, Halliburton, etc.? How much wealth and political influence does it wield? How powerful were Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleezza Rice in the Bush 43 administration? - Sean McBride
Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham and Mike Huckabee are all thinking about a presidential run in 2016. - Sean McBride
Acknowledging that so many of one's fellow non-Jewish Americans are militant Zionists is a bitter pill to swallow -- but one needs to deal with reality as it is before one can figure out effective methods for changing this state of affairs. - Sean McBride
The best way to counter the power of AIPAC is to convince Christian Zionists that they have been sold a bill of goods and that they have been supporting policies that have severely damaged the American interest. Turn them around and this entire dynamic will change. *How* to turn them around is the challenge. Can you imagine the political impact if Cruz, Graham, Huckabee and their fellow ideologues repudiated Zionism? - Sean McBride
The issue of the CZ is an interesting one, but I think the angle from which Sean is coming is not likely to bear fruit. The CZ's are a direct product of an American educational system where ignorance and lack of critical thinking is bolstered, despite many proclamations to the contrary. The ignorance, some fostered deliberately through churches, all encouraged and amplified by select... more... - Danaa
The place from which it is more useful to view the CZs is not hrough the Christian lens alone, but through a human lens, where fear of change begets resistance to critical thinking, which can beget instances of mass hysteria, which is what dominionism is. A case of mass hysteria that seems to persist in the American body politic for reasons that require much deeper analysis than to just call them stupid and be done with it. - Danaa
Comparing the numerical equation for jews and CZs in the US will likely lead to false conclusions. I think American realizes it though it's not an easy point to counter. Sure there are many more anti-intellectuals in America than there are intellectuals (Jewish and not). But books have been written about and much discussion taken place about the anti-intellectual kernel that seems to... more... - Danaa
I know individual evangelist people and am struck by the unbelievable dichotomy between their innate intelligence which shines through at moments, and the almost unbelievable obtuse ideas they express in the next. On one hand, a deep essential commitment to caring for the disabled and old among them; on the other complete apathy and indifference to the suffering of others not like them, be they black or white. - Danaa
Through the people I came to know - as a complete outsider of course - people who I recognize as good at heart and sound of mind - I have been researching - sort of, the points of vulnerablity to more critical thought especially about israel and the place of the Jews in it. It's not easy but here and there I detect possible areas where battles to change these people's minds could... more... - Danaa
It may sound manipulative, but that's not totally true. I really am looking for a way to get across to people who seem completely on the other side of me intellectually, religiously and spiritually. It's like there's a huge wall between us that I am trying to look through, if not actually walk over. I often do this kind of thing, and interestingly no one seems to begrudge it too much.... more... - Danaa
The rank and file CZs are mostly lower and mid lower middle class in the South---east coast to Texas--- and mostly in Texas and lower southern states. The older ones are lucky if they have a high school education---the younger ones or the ones my age are often the first in their family to go beyond high school and attend local colleges or state extension colleges. I met very few actual... more... - American
I will never forget one time about 16 years ago when a friend of mine in Virginia called and asked me if I knew anyone in Charlotte connected to a certain group that was building a 'religious resort' in the area because the daughter of a man who worked for him had moved there and gone to work for this group.. I didnt know anyone but said I would check on her. I called her and just said... more... - American
American, that was a good analysis. Where I live most of the time now there are lots of CZ's and evangelicals (hence my conversations with them). I can fully corroborate based on my own limited survey both the educational level and the feelings of inferiority just barely under the surface. These are the groups caught in the middle of disruptive technological and global shift happening... more... - Danaa
I also liked your comparison with the jews, when it comes to tribal/family ties. Indeed, I see around me far greater commitment to family bonds and traditions than I did when I lived in more cosmopolitan places. Needless to say, I also agree they will turn on dime, were they perceive it to be in their interest. The "love" of israel is not the same as "love" of israelis or "love" of Jews. It's really an extension - for them - of "love" of jesus. - Danaa
'' and they (CZs) bear a large responsibility for bad American Mideast policies..Sean).....Once again quit smoking whatever you're smoking. That is a bizarre statement. The I-dom 'power' is money and political pressure from the I-lobby and orgs. How many 'former' congressmen and senators and other insiders have to spill the beans on the I-Lobby tactics for you to accept the facts. - American
And your suggestion that the way to curb the I-influence is to convert the CZs into rational thinkers? Also bizarre, that will never happen. The CZs are as whacky as the Isr religious settlers. - American
If you want to understand the CZs Sean you need to picture them as sort of the same type of people as the Hatfield and McCoy familes......they hold onto the ideas in 'old days and old ways" where it concerns 'family and 'religion.....but they will go to war quicker over family than they will religion. - American
Sean McBride
# prominent non-Jewish Zionists
1. Allen West 2. Andrew McCarthy 3. Bill de Blasio 4. Bill O'Reilly 5. Cory Booker 6. David Vitter 7. Dennis Miller 8. Dick Cheney 9. Donald Rumsfeld 10. Donald Trump 11. Eric Schmidt 12. Franklin Graham 13. Gary Bauer 14. Geert Wilders 15. George Will 16. Glenn Beck 17. Hal Lindsey 18. Harry Reid 19. Herman Cain 20. Hillary Clinton 21. Hugh Hewitt 22. James Dobson 23. James Inhofe 24. James Woolsey 25. John Bolton 26. John Hagee 27. John McCain 28. Joseph Farah 29. Karl Rove 30. Lindsey Graham 31. Liz Cheney 32. Louie Gohmert 33. Marco Rubio 34. Mark Kirk 35. Megyn Kelly 36. Michael Gerson 37. Michele Bachmann 38. Mike Huckabee 39. Mike Rogers 40. Mitch McConnell 41. Mitt Romney 42. Nancy Pelosi 43. Newt Gingrich 44. Oliver North 45. Orrin Hatch 46. Pat Robertson 47. Peter King 48. Ralph Peters 49. Ralph Reed 50. Rick Perry 51. Rick Santorum 52. Robert Menendez 53. Robert Spencer 54. Rudy Giuliani 55. Rupert Murdoch 56. Rush Limbaugh 57. Sam Brownback 58. Samantha Power 59. Sarah... more... - Sean McBride
Any others? - Sean McBride
American -- do you see what you're up against? - Sean McBride
I am only 'up against' them because I'm not in charge of the US...if I was they would be gone...LOL You do realize dont you that in this line up most of them are not true zionist but zionist 'stooges' for the money or their careers. If the Buddhist controlled most of the US media and press and put millions into politicians then they would all be Buddhist. It the money and the lobby....its always the money or the career for 99% of them. Just accept that truth. - American
How do you determine which of the above people are "real" Zionists or "fake" (opportunistic) Zionists? Many of them are definitely authentic, true-believing Zionists. The bottom line is that collectively they wield a tremendous amount of power in American politics -- and they are not Jewish. And their power has grown greatly in recent decades. - Sean McBride
Regarding the power of Jewish/Zionist money in American politics -- there is every reason to believe that it will increase in the coming years, not decrease -- simply analyze trends on the annual Forbes billionaires list. There are no democratic means by which you can seize their wealth. - Sean McBride
Without a countervailing lobby to challenge the power of the Israel lobby in American politics, nothing is going to change. In fact, it is likely that the power of the Israel lobby will continue to increase. - Sean McBride
Quit smoking whatever you're smoking.I can assure you Cheney, Rove Palin Rubio Cain and all the other neos on there dont give a rats ass about Israel or the Jews except where they are politically useful to their own agenda. - American
And you can assure us of that on the basis of what precisely? You know the intimate details of their personal lives and private thinking? - Sean McBride
Betcha it wont over the long haul.....they will blow it. They arent smart, they do short term 'tactics, not long term "strategy" - American
Which group of "strategic thinkers" is going to effectively challenge the power of the Israel lobby? Who are they? How much wealth do they command? One would like to see some realism and pragmatism in this discussion -- not wishful thinking. - Sean McBride
And you can assure us they are true zionist based on your intimate friendships with them? I base mine on their statements and political maneuvers over the years. - American
Among the opportunists in that list above -- what factors could possibly motivate them to shift sides and oppose the Israel lobby? Why, for instance, would Lindsey Graham or Mike Huckabee reverse their views? - Sean McBride
# how to parse that list in greater detail 1. c; non-Jewish Zionist+African-American 2. c; non-Jewish Zionist+Bush 43 administration member 3. c; non-Jewish Zionist+Clinton administration member 4. c; non-Jewish Zionist+Hispanic 5. c; non-Jewish Zionist+Muslim 6. c; non-Jewish Zionist+Protestant 7. c; non-Jewish Zionist+Roman Catholic 8. c; non-Jewish Zionist+mainstream media owner 9. c; non-Jewish Zionist+mainstream media pundit - Sean McBride
I dont know that any 'group' lobby will challenge the zios. I think privately there are people who are expressing their concern over the Isr infiltration and the lobby. I do know for a fact that there are several congressmen,mine is one of them, who have banded together on the hill on this without broadcasting it. I dont think it much matters though in the end....the Zionist are bat shit crazy and they are not, despite how you would like to believe it--smart. They will cause their own demise. - American
Maybe. Maybe they will succeed in taking the United States down with them. - Sean McBride
maybe players [ "strategic thinkers"] in the US will have to force their hand. - Chu_
Politicians will only reverse their positions when the Isr shit hit the and the US and Americans get hurt because of it. OR....when some consultants tell them that the public' is turning'. Let me give you a example that doesnt pertain to Isr specifically but is an example of the public grund - American
The strategic thinkers in the American political system who are skeptical about the Israel lobby (or who oppose it) have lost the leverage by which to impose their will on the world. They lack the financial resources and organizational infrastructure to turn the tide. They have been overpowered and vanquished. This has been the pattern since the Truman administration. - Sean McBride
point taken. But where;s the power of the military? Why isn't Obama aligning with them? Surely there's more patriots there than the congress. I dunno. - Chu_
Chu -- the Israel lobby possesses vastly greater wealth than the patriots you mention. Money is power. It's that simple. - Sean McBride
i know. America represented values once, now it's a capitol dystopia. Respect is by who has more bank. They play a tight card game. But even bloomberg couldn't garner 2% in the repub straw polls years ago. They stay in the shadows using pawns like Cruz. The curtain will be pulled off one day. have hope. - Chu_
Politicians will only reverse their positions when the Isr shit hits the US and Americans get hurt in a big way because of it. OR....when some consultants tell them that the public' is turning'. Let me give you a example that doesnt pertain to Isr specifically but is an example of the public ground '.shifting'. Sen Hagan running for re election this Fall has been doing ads telling the... more... - American
And Chu is right about Isr using non jewish pawns like Cruz et al. as cover to say 'see, this non Jew leader loves Israel!". How many million of times and articles have we seen Zios claiming that 'All Americans support Israel? ' That Isr is an American value? the truth is the majority of the public pays no attention to Israel except when it acts outs like Gaza---the public really does... more... - American
But sean is correct also. What has Chuck Hagel done since he came to the Sect of Defense? Once people get into the beltway, they ignore the country and play survival politics. It's like nyc, the mindset on wall street is so competitive, people lose sight of the bigger picture. - Chu_
'' Maybe. Maybe they will succeed in taking the United States down with them. - Sean McBride) Yea they might. In many way the already have. BUT...the difference is this---the US is big enough to come back, Israel isnt and if the Jews are associated with whatever happens they are goners too. In the current climate out here in the normal public if Israel attacked Iran and Iran attacked back and the US had to go war for Israel----you would see the public become inflamed....ISIS or no ISIS. - American
ISIS btw is a Saudi and Isr created force to get the US to do just that----bomb half of Arabia. The Syria used 'chemical weapons' didnt work so now they are trying the Muslim beheader killers to get the US going. - American
Sean, your list has one of the largest cauldrons of "useful idiots" and "Oligarch hot airs" I've seen. Why is Donald Trump not on it (or did I miss it)? In Russian parlance these would be called the "Fifth columnists". It means nothing they are not Jewish. They might as well be. Probably the true zionist convictions among these shlumiels could be measured with a thimble. This is simply... more... - Danaa
I don't know why you keep trying to prove that there is some kind of a true "Zionist" element among non-Jews. There is hardly any actual zionism or more than a smidgen of "love" for israel. There's simply calculation that professing love for israel is good for their political careers. Did Chu say Capitol dystopia? well, I totally agree with that. Along with American Chu and countless... more... - Danaa
I dont know why Sean keeps trying to prove these people are true zionist either instead of self serving stooges or that there are X-millions of CZs in the US who out power AIPAC .I think he might not have enough contact with a variety of Americans to realize that, unlike we who are into this issue, the average person is basically 'indifferent' to Israel as they are to other foreign... more... - American
Donald Trump added to the list. - Sean McBride
CZ's are more of a cloak. They don't even like Jews - they want to see them converted in the 2nd coming. sure Zionists will take their Hagee donation money, but they are never gonna eat at the same dinner table unless someone brought the money filled envelope. - Chu_
It doesn't matter whether their Zionism is authentic or fake -- what matters is that they are key components of the Israel lobby, that that lobby overwhelmingly dominates the American political system, and that there is no countervailing lobby on the horizon. Opponents of the Israel lobby lack the resources to effectively express their opposition -- they continue to be massively overpowered -- as much by non-Jewish as Jewish leaders of the lobby. - Sean McBride
'' It doesn't matter whether their Zionism is authentic or fake -- what matters is that they are key components of the Israel lobby, that that lobby overwhelmingly dominates the American political system,..sean) Yea but thats not what you were saying originally. You were claiming that these stooges were true zionist--true believers. - American
At this point I am more interested in the growing opposition in the Democratic Party toward Israel than these stale CZ puddingheads. - Chu_
When Zio-Isr-dom in the US turns into a train wreck you're gonna see the opportunity stooges trying to crawl out from under the wreckage as fast as they can. - American
Many non-Jews (not just Christian Zionists) *are* Zionist true believers -- they feel an emotional attachment to the ideology of Zionism, for whatever reasons -- it captures their imagination and energizes them. That is a separate issue from whether or not they like individual Jews. Also, some of them may have Jewish family members or close Jewish friends or colleagues who predispose them to siding with Israel and Zionism. - Sean McBride
'' At this point I am more interested in the growing opposition in the Democratic Party toward Israel than these stale CZ puddingheads. - Chu_''....Me too. I did have one encouraging moment recently when the DNC called to solicit money. I told the woman I was NEVER going to give another dime to the Dems as long they supported Israel, that Gaza was the end of the line for me. She said to... more... - American
'some of them may have Jewish family members or close Jewish friends or colleagues who predispose them to siding with Israel and Zionism. ' _I can't imagine seeing the synagogue members and the Chist-ian Zios in the large hall singing praise the lord in harmony. Don't CZ's want to purge Judaism from the planet at the second coming? I don't think they have an affinity for one another. But I should say I've never listened to one of Hagee's great pro-Israel sermons. Where's Jones to weigh in here? - Chu_
Many leading non-Jewish Zionists are not Christian Zionists of the fundamentalist type -- they are more sophisticated than that (consider James Woolsey or Walter Russell Mead). There are many factors that might motivate non Jews to support Israel and Zionism, all the way from extreme idealism to extreme cynicism. - Sean McBride
''There are many factors that might motivate non Jews to support Israel and Zionism''..sean),,,,,,,What are the factors? - American
Is there a list for # prominent non-Jewish Zionists Organizations. > as in NPR... etc - Chu_
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Lutheran activists fear new church leadership will stifle criticism of Israeli occupation -
According to retired church personnel of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America the new presiding bishop, The Rev. Elizabeth Eaton, is seeking to retrench the church's position on Israel/Palestine. And they fear a witch-hunt against those church workers who demand substantive action
JEFFB: «I have no problem in considering David Ben-Gurion the messiah. I don’t believe in prophecy at all, but as long as one is going to interpret them loosely enough that any sort of fulfillment is possible I think we got a fulfillment.» - WJones
I suppose that Americans might argue in the same way that George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine were messiahs and prophets. - Sean McBride
The jury is still out on whether Zionism has been a successful enterprise. - Sean McBride
Were Lenin and Trotsky successful messiahs and prophets? No. But it took several decades to sort it out. - Sean McBride
Ben Gurion is not "The Messiah" because he was not noted for his particularly strong relationship with God. (eg. I will be His father and He will be my son). - WJones
JeffB is probably using the term "the messiah" in a metaphorical sense. And there are numerous literal and contradictory theological messiahs in play in the Abrahamic tradition. - Sean McBride
Many Jews, Christians and Muslims envision their respective Messiahs as establishing absolute domination over the world -- quite a power trip. "The Messiah" could be an unconscious psychological projection of the human will to power raised to the highest level. - Sean McBride
[Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah] - Sean McBride
972 Mag: The perennial dilemma of liberal Zionism - Chu_
JeffB is just making fun of Christians for being believers. Note his words: he does not really believe in prophesies but if the word "prophesy" serves to rankle even one Christian, why, it's mission accomplished. Among jews of course, it's wink, wink all the way to greater israel and more dead Arabs. I don't lie to take on his type, because he is not there to debate or anything. Just to annoy. - Danaa
JEFFB: <<Ben-Gurion['s] opinion identifying messianic redemption with Israel was accepted by Jews. I’m being a bit more blunt but it would be hard for a living Ben-Gurion to talk the way I do about Israel without sounding like David Koresh.>> - WJones
Sean, how do we get new replies to our comments on MW listed for us, or arriving in our email? - WJones
At the bottom of the comment section for every article, you will see a checkbox with "Notify me of follow-up comments by email" -- check that box when you post a comment. I can't imagine following MW discussions without email notifications -- I wouldn't even try. And you can reply to new comments from within your mail reader. Precise and efficient -- no sifting through and eyeballing... more... - Sean McBride
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Naive? At a Jewish spiritual retreat center, I insist on talking about Gaza -
“It sounds to me like you’d prefer Palestinians not to exist,” I said between sessions at the Jewish retreat center. “I wouldn’t go as far as genocide,” he said. “Almost, but not quite.” And he smiled.The ideological merger between Judaism and Zionism has given rise to an American form of idolatry that one rejects at one’s own peril. A vicious hasbara indoctrination had overtaken these people’s minds and shuttered their ability to think
What makes some people susceptible to propaganda? Wikipedia says for Weak Minded "... is the state of being easily impressionable or possessing a weak sense of self-will, judgement or conviction. A weak minded individual's opinion may be easily swayed by propaganda or emotional manipulation tactics, as they do not possess an adequate ability to judge or discern the quality of an assertion, or they may exhibit a lack of discipline." - American
In the brainwashed and /or fanatics their emotions short circuit the logical, rational part of their brain. It blows a brain fuse, the power is off upstairs. - American
Judaism is the least popular Abrahamic religion. Now I'm not a theologian but my guess is that's because it's too narrow and some of its aspects don't hold up to modernity. Like for instance the claim of privileged 'choseness', which is antisocial, anti equality and anti universalism. One would think that after the unspeakable events of the holocaust, this particular tenet would have... more... - Taxi
What I know of Judaism strikes me as dark and some what primitive---which might be unfair to say since I dont actually know that much about it. Years ago however, before I was ever involved in the Isr issue an older lady friend of ours lost her husband and I went to pay a condolence call on her ---he was jewish and her second husband, her first was killed in the war. She was telling me... more... - American
In an age where the internet is like the mind of god that we all draw from, old religions, more specifically old religious rituals do indeed appear dark and arcane. - Taxi
'the claim of privileged 'choseness', which is antisocial, anti equality and anti universalism. ' - I agree, really a backward polluting ideology and self serving concept. It's puts it followers at odds with the rest of humanity, and hence this is the situation at hand. - Chu_
LYNNE: "The people at the retreat ranged in age from teenagers to octogenarians. I’m afraid the younger people were just as crazy as everyone else." - WJones
taxi, you have quite a talent for the turn of phrase. I liked "marry her ocean of passive yogic universalism with the violent fishbowl of the torah". Clever. And true. - Danaa
You're not so bad yourself, Danaa dearest. - Taxi
Hey Danaa, I haven't read the Torah myself, nor do I intend to (lack of interest in religion and life being too short and all that), so like if you yourself have read the Torah, can you please tell me if a seed of 'discrimination' against non-jews is present in the judaic ideology? And if it is, can you pontificate on why a minority desert cult/religion would purposely plant this kind of alienating and un-spiritual seed in their thinking? - Taxi
Taxi, Douglass Reed (11 March 1895 – 26 August 1976) in Controversy of Zion, dissects the Torah in a very critical manner. The book is online (same as the hard copy) and you only need to reed to first 50 pages to get a sense of who wrote the torah (Tanakh), what their aim was and how it would impose a control and hatred among foreign tribes. What interesting is that Reed was also a big critic of Hitler, writing a few books against him. - Chu_
Thanks Chu. So the antisemites AND the jews hate Douglass Reed? LOL. I'll sure look into his book then. It would still be most valuable to hear a critque of the torah from an objective jew who has read it. - Taxi
ask wondering jew, taxi.... i'm kidding... he once said on mw how the Koran and the Bible were average reading, no way did it compare to the stories of the tanakh. - Chu_
Taxi, the section on the Levites is good material from Reed's book. - Chu_
I'd rather poke my eye with Neptune's fork than ask wandering jew for anything - except of course to get the fuck outta Palestine! - Taxi
Alotta positive reader reviews of Doug Reed's book on - Taxi
what a f'ing faker he is. I recall that he once talked about how his sister and her children are settlers, in the west bank! what a mensch... - Chu_
<<if you yourself have read the Torah, can you please tell me if a seed of 'discrimination' against non-jews is present in the judaic ideology? And if it is, can you pontificate on why a minority desert cult/religion would purposely plant this kind of alienating and un-spiritual seed in their thinking?>> In the Torah, the distinction is based on religion - the other nations don't... more... - WJones
A strange thing came up though in New Testament times, and maybe earlier. I am not sure whether gentile believers in God were considered ritually unclean under Halakha. - WJones
what differentiates the Halakha from the Talmud? - Chu_
Same difference between sham and shamoo. - Taxi
Taxi. Yes, I was forced to read through the dauntingly boring document you called "Torah". Thess first five books are basically a long recitation on supposed lineage (the son of so and so beget the son of x, y,z), the endless set of laws supposedly handed down by the oh, so very productive Moses (that part alone takes like 200 pages in my old school book version with the thin pages full... more... - Danaa
Chu, To the best of my knowledge, the Torah (known as the five books of moses), coupled with the "oral Torah" which is the Talmud, AND with the set of laws and regulations governing daily life, called "shulchan aruch" is what makes the "Halacha". The latter is what the ultra-orthodox follow (including those days in which sex is permissible. Good thing too or they would multiply even... more... - Danaa
Unfortunately, I can share with you the fact that the pages of the bible were thin and small as part of a giant conspiracy to prevent me from turning them into paper planes that could actually fly. Later, when we had a couple of years of instructions (also known as "torture") on fine selections of the Talmud (no, not the ones dealing with you know what subject), those books were of... more... - Danaa
As to your other question, taxi, the bible (including now the prophets et al) spent much time belaboring the threat of assimilation. The tenach, as we call it, is full of admonitions against intermarrying or just inter-relating with non-Jews. There are more than a few denigrating missives about the uncleanliness and bloody-mindedness of them darn gentiles. As for the talmud, where... more... - Danaa
thanks danaa. - Chu_
Thanks, Danaa, you poor, poor soul - mustabeen absolute torture to have been forcefully stuffed with all that intolerant religious mumbo-jumbo. And do I understand you right that the principle of 'Tikkum Olam' is an american jewish invention from recent times and not the essence of the teachings of the ancient hebrews? - Taxi
yes, Taxi, that is exactly what I meant about Tikkun Olam. Yes, there are a few sentences here and there in the Talmud, a few sayings attributed to Hillel, and a few pronouncements by some more forward looking Rabbis and scholars of the Middle Ages. There was also the Rambam who lived during the "Golden Era" of the Muslim rule in Andalusia and there were a few writings from him that... more... - Danaa
The sentence most often quoted that form the pinnacle of Tikkun Olam are Hillel's " he who kills a single person killed the entire world' (the little qualifier for "person" which was "Jewish" was dropped or papered over through the intervening centuries. It was, basically implied, as in "wink, wink", or as in "those who know, know and those who don't, don't need to). There are a few other famous sentences but just this moment they escape me. - Danaa
The point I always argue when I happen to come across the talmudic minders, is that while a few pearls of wisdom can indeed be found, and a few instances of sageness and insights are present (Shmuel has been educating me, bless his heart. It is he who is the knowledgeable one about talmud stuff), they are buried in a far greater volume of either gentile despising/denigrating/excluding... more... - Danaa
When I tell these things to Wondering jew he goes a bit nuts and off-topic. Hophmi raves about something to do with some American jewish achiever and israeli types just slither away (because, they know I am right, if they are secular). - Danaa
Thanks Danaa. Man! About the only thing I liked and could both morally and intellectually stand behind in judasim is Tikkum Olam, and now you tell me this has nothing to do with the ancient hebrews or traditional judaism. I'm gutted, I really am. Okay so that about closes the mental doors on judaism for me - I can now safely declare that I have ZERO interest in the content of judaism.... more... - Taxi
You will however notice, taxi, that I speak in a different manner and tone than Gilad, though he kind of addressed some of the same issues I do above, just more hurtfully so. His way is a bit more in your face confrontational than mine, going for the jugular right off the bat. In my case, despite the resruptive behavior I exhibit in situations where boredom afflicts or authority towers... more... - Danaa
Taxi, we do need to be fair though. There really were some great writings from spiritually minded jewish people over the past couple of hundred years, that are not unworthy. I am discovering a few impressive bits written by American jews, both observant and not so much, and the one thing that galls me is that I never learnt a thing about those thinkers in Israeli schooling. As if... more... - Danaa
Maybe cuz Gilad has been so brutally attacked in public that he has a spikier tone than you do - you argue your point defensively while he argues his offensively. But really what fascinates me is not the judo this and judo that, what fascinates me is that despite the jews declaring their intelligence to be god-given and above non-jews, for thousands of years they've been stupidly and... more... - Taxi
Okay so we know that American jews are more universalist and enlightened than european jews, but what about Arab jews? Where are they coming from? - Taxi
And regarding American jews, Danaa, would you say that the universalist doctrines of our beloved constitution influenced their desire for a more tolerant new direction for judaism? - Taxi
taxi: "for thousands of years they've been stupidly and blindly following a dark tapestry of arcane world views that seals them into permanent minoritydom ". That is stated as well as the reality of jewish history teaches us. What we, in Israel learnt, in our secular schools, is that Jews entered a deep Dark Ages of their very own, where the shtetl rabbis riled supreme and everyone else... more... - Danaa
"This here is a fine example of the human condition: often biting its own tail and weeping". Another classic from you, Taxi. Can I quote you on that in my "circles"? (with attribution, of course, to a Commenter-called-Taxi? - Danaa
LOL Danaa - by all means quote away - plenty more where that came from. - Taxi
One more thing that might interest you Taxi (just between you and me): can you imagine growing up with zero and zilch female role models for over 1800 years? wives and mothers, That's nice. But nothing out there for nearly two millenia (can go into details of the last important female some other time). At least the Christians had their educated nuns, queens, joan d'arc, elianor of... more... - Danaa
See, I think in order to successfully compete with raving, disorganized paganism, the ancient Hebrews (desert Arabs) came up with the 'chosen' thing to appeal to the elite of the day so as to garner their protection in a sectarian environment. The idea of 'choseness' is certainly not a Hebrew original, the Pharaohs of Egypt were 'chosen' too, according to the Pharaohs. - Taxi
Good idea about the "choseness". It was a good invention, fand a fine trick, that for sure. However, got to give it to those desert jews - they sure knew how to advertise their own chosen-ness over that of others. As I said before a few times, there is a reason the Old testament reads like an informercial. It's because it is. - Danaa
"would you say that the universalist doctrines of our beloved constitution influenced their desire for a more tolerant new direction for judaism?" inone word, I'd say Yes. Absolutely. In fact, from reading between the lines of various Jewish writers, I discern an unmistakable streak of envy - "how come we didn't come up with something like the Constitution"? so they lay claims to it, in... more... - Danaa
BTW, I'm sure most oh-so-eminent jewish political scholars and wise-men/women were feeling tortured by the very excellent Roosevelt 7 part documentary that aired on PBS. hardly a jewish person among the players, the movers and shakers, the grand visionaries and the doers. Men, how that must hurt! waspiness at its best! - Danaa
Ah the female angle that you so rightly bring up: christians have the virgin Mary and a long line of female christian saints; moslems have Fatima, Zeynab and a long line of revered female moslem saints; and the jews have.... no one you say? For fuck's sakes NO ONE?!!! Danaa, the more I talk to you about judiasm, the less respect I have for the ideology or its adherents - of course I... more... - Taxi
The American Constitution is by far the best thing that ever happened to modern mankind. - Taxi
The ideals that it espouses are great. We're still working on their fulfillment. :) But it's unfortunate that most Americans are never taught that one of the key influences on the framers of the Constitution was the unwritten democratic Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy, possibly one of the oldest democracies in recorded history. http://indiancountrytodaymedia... - weareone
Thanks for the Iroquois background, wearyone. - Taxi
Choseness plays into people's sense of belonging to something, while inflating ones ego with other egos.-I remember a decade ago there was a nightclub in Barcelona that was having the v.i.p. implant a chip [veri-chip] inside of them. While it played on trying to be a trendsetter, it also played into choseness. Too bad that this choseness is such a central component to American Jews... more... - Chu_
I never thought of the female role model Danaa. It's a good point - who does a young person look up to? All the Rabbis are traditionally the final word in the shetl community. And to look outside camp Israel and see other women making their imprint into the greater world surely would make a curious person want to explore outside the gates of Judah. - Chu_
"how come we [jews] didn't come up with something like the Constitution"? - If American Jews were even here en masse at the time to come up with a constitution, I'd imagine most Americans would live in a tribal mindset and we would be a neofeudalist nation. The constitution created many new liberties for all, justice, etc and I see a lot of the AIPAC/Zionist dilemma undermining this... more... - Chu_
you're welcome, Taxi. happy to share whatever little I know. :) - weareone
Chu, Taxi, to answer a bit of my own question about contributing to the Constitution: in truth, Jews had no country or an independent autonomous region where minorities and a mix of people lived with other religions for 2 millenia. So they did not cultivate political thought because they had no need to do so. Politics they say is the art of the possible. But much is/was possible within... more... - Danaa
and b/c of the antisocial inward looking tribal mindset, they missed out on the opportunity to forge a constitution with others who sought a breaking away from England, to practice their religion in the new world. - Chu_
Do you think Israel has a constitution it's waiting to unveil? Someone mentioned that they day they (if they) ever make peace the next day they will have a constitution to show to the world. I think it's likely somewhere in between. - Chu_
Danaa, wasn't Golda Meir a role model for young Israeli girls? Is she a considered one. - Chu_
Sean McBride
100 Most Recent Comments is working again on Mondoweiss
yay! may be now the edit function will be back too. I need it! - Danaa
good news, but it's hard to read. They need to amp up the contrast and make peoples names stand out. Needs more punch. - Chu_
when you go to a person's profile on MW you can now search a topic you discussed. like Seafoid then search Gaza and all the Gaza references are highlighted within his comments. - Chu_
The flying ultraorthodox
No comments allowed on this article. I can only imagine what the comments would look like. - Danaa
On a positive note: the more ultraorthodox multiply like rabbits, the more problems will happen as they try to impose their will on the rest of society. - Danaa
So there's this petition now on Sure, why not, petitions are good,. But can you imagine yourself on one of these flights where the ultraorthodox crazies delay flights, cause commotion, disturb other flyers, cause huge upheaval and on top of it violate all the rules that apply to flying? Now, if these were muslim men for sure they would be escorted off the plane. But no, here... more... - Danaa
On the positive side, i say, bring it on. More such publicity the better. The more israel sinks into a medieval/biblical statehood ruled by a fascist code of honor, the better for those who would like to see Israel sanctioned and boycotted for criminal behavior. - Danaa
El Al Has No Policy In Place To Deal With Disruptive Haredim Who Refuse To Sit Next To Women And Does Not Plan On Having One - Chu_
comment: 'But isn't this conflict avoidance SOP in Israel? Cops, bus drivers, social workers, judges, restauranteurs, pretty much everyone? They come to some sort of "accommodation" that let's lefties and Haredim save face, nobody goes to jail, and then things go back to business as usual. Why should El Al be any different?' - Chu_
'As of 2009, 8% of Israeli Jews defined themselves as Haredim; an additional 12% as "religious"; 13% as "religious-traditionalists" ; 25% as "non-religious-traditionalists" (not strictly adhering to Jewish law or halakha); and 42% as "secular" ' - Chu_
There is something wrong with this poll, Chu. The number of ultra-orthodox (which includes the haredi) in israel now is already over 22% and predicted to rise to over 30% by 2020. The trouble is, how do communities of religious define themselves. There are large number of what we call "black coats" who may not use the definition "Haredi". When you count the "straight" haredi, the Shas... more... - Danaa
I will ask Shmuel if he has the most recent breakdown among the different religious segments. I recall that he explained it very well in a comment in the past. - Danaa
the number did seem low Danaa. If the 35% secular occurs in 2020, I wonder if the US will keep funneling money to Israel? A friend of mine said that his conservative jewish parents don't trust the 'black coats' in nyc, as they are a secretive group with a lot of schemes. And they are hardly a part of american culture. - Chu_
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
NYT’s opening to a ‘fringe voice’ excites rage from Israeli army, journalism, business leaders -
The battle is taking place now inside the walls of elite institutions; many people are talking about American-Israeli writer Mairav Zonszein’s op-ed piece at the New York Times, saying that Israel is becoming intolerant of dissent because of its increasingly “exclusivist ethno-religious nationalism.” This has allowed the us-versus-them mentality to bleed into Israeli Jewish society.
It would be interesting to construct a timeline of all the incidents over recent decades in which arson, assaults, blacklisting, censorship, death threats, firings, personal attacks and vandalism have been used to try to silence critics of Israel. - Sean McBride
Four recent examples: - Sean McBride
1. Neil Masterson's assault on George Galloway - Sean McBride
2. the firebombing of Rabbi Ahron Cohen's car in Salford, England - Sean McBride
3. the denial of a job to Steven Salaita at the University of Illinois - Sean McBride
4. death threats against Russell Brand - Sean McBride
The New York Times has been negligent in covering this pattern of activity, which has been occurring in the United States and Europe as well as Israel. - Sean McBride
Quite a few pro-Israel activists have moved beyond the realm of fair and open political debate to press forward their agenda. - Sean McBride
Browse these Google hits regarding threats against Michael Lerner: - Sean McBride
[Google; israel death threats michael lerner ] - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
How to post a long, multi-paragraph comment in Friendfeed comments. - Sean McBride
Unfortunately Sean, this doesn't work for me. breaking up paragraphs like this looks like bullet points. My eyes tend to just gloss over and the points don't quite gel to a whole. It's why I can't stand twitter comments either. All those annoying hashtags and @ signs - the point just does not stick. I would have preferred for example that you wrote your comment either as a single paragraph with the numbers in single lines, and/or in two paragraphs. - Danaa
This, Sean, is a personal preference. I can't get the development of a point in a bulleted format. It's OK for a scientific presentation where equations and numbers can elucidate the point succintly. But not OK for a more literary commentary, which means that all you got are words. - Danaa
may be there's a way to do things in FF so they are more accessible. But i'm sure that in the end it takes just as much time to do as in a regular comment post. - Danaa
Sean, as Danaa says, it's just personal preference, but I also prefer the paragraph format. - weareone
It's nice to have options, so what about everyone selecting the format that works best for them? - weareone
Google+ Communities provides for comments with conventional paragraphs -- but I am not sure I like the overall look and feel. See: [Mondoweiss on Google+] - Sean McBride
personally I try to minimize reliance on all things google. This time not because of format but principle. I detest monopolies and don't trust that company and anything it does as far as the eye can see. Where there's alternative I try use that. Like DuckDuckGo for search engine. - Danaa
What is the most capable discussion platform you've discovered on the Web? - Sean McBride
# some options: 1. Facebook 2. Friendfeed 3. Google Groups 4. Google+ 5. Twitter 6. Yahoo Groups - Sean McBride
Any others? - Sean McBride
For long-form writing in digital media, there are three obvious choices: blogs, wikis and ebooks. But those formats are not designed for effective group communications and discussion. - Sean McBride
Actually, I find the best discussion groups on online blogs and forums. yes, those are not real time, but if they attract really good and thoughtful commenters, I'm willing to wait. I think the discussions taking place on say, Moon of alabama can be pretty good. Yes, once upon a time there was Mondoweiss, and before that Haaretz talkback could be pretty amazing. But the best I've seen... more... - Danaa
So, in answer to your question, Sean, all I want is to have Mondoweiss back for all things IP, and more open discussion threads on The Guardian the way it used to be. Thing is, I like the public open threads to better attract newcomers. otherwise it always ends up a bit stilted since most people said much of what they had to say and new blood is needed to lift up and reinvigorate discussions. - Danaa
Nothing wrong with FF either, which i think may function best as a mirror site, where people can take their personal duels and/or delve more deeply into some OT thread. I do wish more people used this outlet for that purpose. As they say, paragraphs-shmaragraphs. - Danaa
So, one more note for Sean: I am looking at my comments above - were I to break them into separate comments as you suggest just one comment of mine would stretch over an entire page and I doubt anyone would want to scroll through all those bullets that look like interrupted thought fragments. It's simply my style to overdo and belabor. Occupational hazard and all that. - Danaa
Danaa -- you seem to have adapted well to the limitations and constraints of the Friendfeed commenting system -- your points come through with clarity. Regarding the forums you mentioned -- from a content standpoint, they tend to lose their vitality once they succumb to pressure from the usual oppressive interests. - Sean McBride
Well yes, Sean, I do adapt - even as I bitch about this, that and the other. I do agree about the fact that many open forums and comment sections of known outlets are vulnerable to outside pressure. This becomes manifest when they become too popular. Not sure how that can be remedied. On the flip side, if you had hundreds of influencial voices discoursing on FF, you too would find out about pressure. There are ways. - Danaa
The nice thing about Friendfeed is that it is infinitely flexible and reconfigurable -- groups can freely fragment and recombine any way they like, without moderation or restrictions. There is no top-down authority. But apparently that is too much freedom for most people to handle -- they need a Big Daddy to guide them on their way, to construct the maze. - Sean McBride
Computer quandry
If anyone has suggestions, they are welcome. Some days ago, I dinstalled a Firefox update (for mac). Following that supposed non-event, Google, YouTube and a host of other sites could not be accessed. I did the firewall check and I tried to reinstall the Adobe flash player. It will download but won't install. Neither would the Apple Store software updates. Or Skype. So I can come here to browse where there are few photos/videos, but MW won't open and neither will any other picture-heavy site. HuffingtonPost uploads slowly but only in Safari. - Danaa
Yesterday, as mysteriously as it disappeared, Goggle popped up again. I am pretty sure this has something to do with permissions but am stomped at how to fix them. - Danaa
If it happened to others and if anyone has insight and/or ideas to fix, I am all ears.... - Danaa
I'm not a Mac user -- but in a situation like this I would usually try to restore my system to the pre-Firefox update state. I would also Google around on this particular set of issues, looking for solutions. - Sean McBride
For instance: [Fix problems connecting to websites after updating Firefox] - Sean McBride
[Google; firefox update can't load websites] - Sean McBride
I did that, Sean. Thanks. Alas, the fixes suggested did not fix the problem. Specifically, I did the uninstall/reinstall Firefox but You Tube did not return even on another browser. It's a mystery. I just put it here in case anyone else who uses Mac has encountered something similar. At this point the best option is a trip to the Aplle Store, which, alas, is not nearby. - Danaa
Just a note: a system restore is different than a Firefox uninstall/reinstall. It can fix more problems. - Sean McBride
You might also try clearing your Firefox cookes and cache. Also try running Malwarebytes on your system. - Sean McBride
I am mortified doing too much on the system for fear of causing more harm than good. May be the Apple store should be the first step. I actually think there's a problem with the permissions/firewall system, but fixing is another story. I will try the Malwarebytes you suggested. - Danaa
Danaa, you may want to call first. The store near me requires an appointment. I had to return the next day because I didn't know about the appointment policy, and like you, I don't live near a store. - weareone
Wearone, thanks. I do know about appointments - some of "my best friends' work at the genius bar (well, they became my "best friends" after going above and beyond the call of duty, and probably violating policy, to help me with an old laptop that I refused to dump. Don't worry - lots of people become my accidental "best friends' after chance encounters, which for me invariably become... more... - Danaa
Danaa, I know what you mean about getting to know the guys at the genius bar. I've spent much too much time there, but maybe after your tutoring sessions you can advise the technologically challenged, like me. - weareone
One solution that works for some people: "This has happened to me so here's what I did and now everything is back to normal. The FF update is fine but it conflicted big time with Norton. I uninstalled Norton and went with the Microsoft virus program and it all works. Since then, there's an update on Norton that supposedly fixes the FF incompatibility problem." - Sean McBride
I am a idiot when it comes to computer problems but am confused here-----did you say the problem occurred 'after ' you 'uninstalled' a FF update? Why did you uninstall the update---did the update cause a problem? Before you un and re installed FF did you try just installing the update you uninstalled? - American
I use Foxfire 99% of the time and once in a while an update does something weird to some other function like a box popup 'saying no device found for this'' even though no functions are being interfered with and I ignore it and eventually the box just disappears and never pops up again---mysteries. - American
American, the problem occurred AFTER installing FF update. In the process of following advice found on line from people to whom similar has happened, I tried to uninstall then reinstall FF. But it did not fix the problem. This was suggested as an approach to dealing with the firewall problem (ie new FF may not be recognized by previous programs/applications). What I see now is the... more... - Danaa
Sean McBride
It's easy to follow your discussions on Friendfeed.
Just click on My Discussions in the right column under Friends: Home, Direct Messages, My discussions. - Sean McBride
This interface is much more powerful than the Mondoweiss/Wordpress interface, but quite a few people find it difficult to wrap their minds around it. You need to click around to master the full feature set. It also doesn't hurt to read the documentation. - Sean McBride
For group communications, Friendfeed blows away Wordpress, Facebook and Twitter. - Sean McBride
Thanks for the tips, Seaneee. - Taxi
So Sean, I would like to recover our two most notable discussions about the merits/demerits of Twitter. The first altercation (friendly enough, if slightly ascerbic if memory serves me right) happened around or before April this year. What is the quickest way to get to that thread? (yes, I know it's a recurring theme, but I'm looking for our first little battle of the roses....). - Danaa
Friendfeed is good for chatting, bc it's so fast. It isn't good for detailed conversations. Hence the << >> quotes, etc. - WJones
Danaa there are several methods to search the archive for this group. To turn up past posts mentioning "Twitter" or "Twitter Danaa", these work: - Sean McBride
1. [Friendfeed; twitter group:mondoweiss-on-friendfeed] - Sean McBride
2. [Friendfeed; twitter danaa group:mondoweiss-on-friendfeed] - Sean McBride
3. [Google; twitter] - Sean McBride
4. [Google; twitter twitter danaa] - Sean McBride
Perhaps you were thinking about this discussion from April 23: - Sean McBride
Google nicely narrows down the search space if you include "April" in the search: - Sean McBride
[Google; twitter twitter danaa april] - Sean McBride
If you don't understand those search statements, ask and I will explain. - Sean McBride
WJones -- it's easy to break out paragraphs and quotes in long, detailed conversations into separate comments in a continuous flow -- like I did just above. When your comments are essays, it's more effective to post links to wherever they are stored at a document archive, publication or blog. - Sean McBride
Americans Continue to Say a Third Political Party Is Needed
3rd party.png
PRINCETON, NJ -- A majority of U.S. adults, 58%, say a third U.S. political party is needed because the Republican and Democratic parties "do such a poor job" representing the American people. These views are little changed from last year's high. Since 2007, a majority has typically called for a third party. - Chu_
Chu, you mentioned a Tea Party 2.0. which may be a good idea, but I'm not very hopeful that having an additional party or parties will effect significant changes. Once elected, what will prevent those from a third party from succumbing to greed and graft like the others? imo, elected officials are our employees, paid with our tax dollars, $174,000-$223,500 per year /each, to represent... more... - weareone
Congress approval is dismal. 13% approval! But the media talk about ISIS instead of these charlatans. - Chu_
This is grounds for revolution, yet the media are on their side. - Chu_
American gov't and Media don't serve the masses. They serve the money. It's so obvious. I need to listen to Sean Hannity to get my wild ideas back on track. - Chu_
' imo, the electorate must take responsibility for causing the problem because we were not attentive. ' I agree in a sense, but the media is a corporation. Once you get some alternate media (that is not coopted) you can get the masses thinking clearer. Most people in the US (and the world) moreoften consider their own situation ~ meaning nightly news (5pm etc). They couldn't place Syria on a map if they tried. - Chu_
Well, if the approval rate is 13%, I wonder why they continue to vote the same people into office? 68% of Americans would like a national issue referendum, 75% are in favor of term limits, 63% are in favor of absolving the Electoral College and 79% support limits on campaign funding.<<Americans... more... - weareone
yeah. I think with Israel, Americans have to ask the question: 'What do they do for us?' I've yet to hear a zionist make a good case that Israel is an asset to American interests. That's why discussion about Israel is taboo. Because they'll lose the debate in the town square. - Chu_
"Because they'll lose the debate in the town square"--for sure. Sean Hannity...funny. - weareone
In my regular life, I am often asked about current events, such as the bombings ongoing in Iraq and Syria, because people know I read widely. When I provide an update and interpretation (which I've learnt to do fairly succintly, believe it or not) people seem to nod, sometimes asking a few questions, sometimes just lamenting the state of affairs. This is Fox news country and it is clear... more... - Danaa
Unfortunately, when it is pointed out that third parties already exist and garner few of the votes, no one has an answer as to how that can be changed. So yes, again agreeing with wearone, political reality requires attention, and it isn't there. Why, I ask? probably because most people are not sufficiently suffering. And that is not political reality. It is human condition reality. - Danaa
Hi Danaa. Yes, third parties are not new and over the years I've voted for a few third party candidates, but if there's interest in forming an alternative party that attracts larger numbers, I wonder how many are willing to do the grassroots organizational work that this requires. I also wonder if this is the most efficient use of time and energy. With regard to suffering, I agree with... more... - weareone
PS Chu made most of the comments about the media. :) - weareone
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
US elites are vulnerable to donor pressure on Israel question -
Several recent articles have highlighted the importance of pro-Israel donors in influencing the political discourse at universities, in synagogues, and in U.S. elections. Two pro-Palestinian voices have lost their jobs at campuses in part because of such pressure (Steven Salaita, Bruce Shipman). Here are several stories/incidents that underline the importance of pro-Israel money and even
That is absolutely true. It's why PBS has gone all wobbly-kneed on anything Israel and many university are running terrified. - Danaa
recently I found a link that details Jewish donation patterns. Quite enlightening. If I have time I'll share in a post. - Danaa
I agree about PBS, Danaa. i used to watch it as one baseline for media shows. While they were once tepid, now they are craven. Shields & Brooks often was Shields & Ruth Marcus and that was way too much chese at one serving. I stopped listening to the News Hour after Shields & Brooks completely avoided Israel's Operation Caste Lead as it went on for 4 WEEKS. It was incredibly revealing that they couldn't address that topic. - Chu_
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Homegrown jihadis and the limits of the Israel lobby -
Israel’s calculation of “Liberalism for us, oppression for our enemies” mirrors Western attitudes. The Israel lobby is not needed to sway western governments to support the Jewish state, Maggie Sager argues at Mondo
This is the opposite of what Sager wrote on her own blog in 2010 where she quoted W&M on all the outrageous things the I-lobby and Israel had made the US do. - American
So why the switchover? I dont think its a mystery why we are seeing more and more 'gatekeeping' articles for the "Jewish lobby" and more and more Jewish heroes being featured on MW. The more things heat up on Israel the more MW needs to defend US Jews. There's nothing wrong with it except for one thing----and that is the 'lies' it involves such as the lobby has no power--and the fact... more... - American
I just want to know out of curiosity if MW solicits people like Sager and suggest that they write an article ''downplaying the Lobby because everyone knows its a *Jewish* lobby' and blaming I/P on US imperialism and capitalism. The commenters have taken down the Chomsky fraud so many times on this you would think they would give up insulting our intelligence over and over.But no their brains are like plastic toy dolls that you push a button and they repeat 3 or 4 sentences for you over and over and over. - American
Check through the comments down to where "AMERICAN" writes to "Maggie Pie". It starts off normal but then gets extremely long after quoting a history essay. He starts writing to her with quotation makes around his paragraphs, and it's really strange. What is going on there? - WJones
He writes: «*Hello again maggie pie and other imperial capitalism not the Lobby! theorist….you do realize don’t you that that UN resolutions brought BRICS in relation to US support of Israel meant US capitalist and the US would have a harder time ‘exploiting’ other countries for their own profit.» I don't understand that paragraph. - WJones
I am starting to think that he could be a sockpuppet too, actually, which would explain some of his more unusual comments. - WJones
Ha Ha....evidently Jones you don't know about the Chomsky 'its the Imperial US Satan that makes Israel do what it does.' fight on MW. The quotation marks are quotation marks because those paragraphs are quotes from the article. get it? Study some US and political history for a change instead of religion so you will be able to understand what others are discussing re Israel and why. - American
Sockpuppet? come on man. If you disagree with someone come out and say it. You're saying he has a phony agenda? He's been commenting on MW since 2009. And don't worry about Maggie, she responded to his criticism. The only sock puppet on that thread is would seem to be Sassan. - Chu_
I don't think there is any conceivable way that American could be a sockpuppet -- he is much too genuine. And the issues he raises with Maggie Sager about the power of the Israel lobby vis-a-vis other interests in the making of American Mideast policy are important to discuss and sort out. (I haven't hesitated to disagree with numerous statements by American in the past -- nor has he hesitated to disagree with many of my statements.) - Sean McBride
WJones, it is not advisable to imply people could be "sock puppets" because of length of comments, quotation marks or some meandering - I didn't read the comment so don't know how it appears, but all three attributes applied to some of my comments in the past too - alas. Remember that the "edit" function is gone for now and the blockquote feature is problematic. - Danaa
I think I gave before the key criteria for detecting "sock puppets" and inconsistency and emotional incoherence are two of them. Of all of us American is one of the most consistent and his anger the most genuine. In so many years his position has been rock solid. If anything more of us moved to his direction. - Danaa
WJones, I'm not sure why you would make that accusation. I have to agree with Chu, Sean and Danaa. American's comments have always been very consistent in the relatively short time (compared to others) that I have been commenting. - weareone
Thanks gang for the backup....I am definitely no sock puppet. Everything I say is all me, the good and the bad, the reasonable, the unreasonable. Any inconsistency is due only to (one of) my major character flaws, lack of patience with 'problems' and idiots. and tendency to sarcasm and temper fits when I think people arent getting it. If I were a sock puppet I'd try to be perfect in my comments ----and We All know I dont do that.....LOL - American
Your numerous blemishes are a sign of your authenticity. (That could be construed as a compliment, I guess. :)) - Sean McBride
I know the feeling and the frustration with talking about the same thing over and over. I think Maggie took your criticism sincerely. - Chu_
Well I probably should have just let it go and not gotten into making fun of the Chomsky thing but if people dont call out that 'Lobby dodge' used by some then readers might think its true. - American
Krauss, one of the first comments made a similar comment about the lobby. Keith can't seem to NOT defend Chomsky - for all he talks about the anti-Chomsky brigade, he certainly defends his hero. Piotr takes him on mid-thread. - Chu_
I think next time this happens I think I will just go straight to the truth of Why some I- Activist do the 'lobby dodge' thing. Why not just say..... 'look we understand what you're doing--one of your jobs as Jewish activist is protecting Jews from Israel and lobby fall out. I dont blame you trying to do this, anyone would try protect themselves or friends----BUT ..we have a problem... more... - American
The lobby is hasbara central within the US. Recall how for years people were trying to say that CZ's were the main force in the US. Yeah, sure they were... - Chu_
'You are harming both the Palestine and our 'American cause' when you try to throw people off the track and imply we have to overthrow the entire capitalist system' - I agree, or I should say one step at a time. We need to isolate the factors of the US empire. Keith seems to say it's 'the man', but MW is a Jewish centric blog. Sure we can talk about the corrupt empire, but MW has a focus on Israel and the lobby. - Chu_
Keith once had some, let's say, nasty comment denigrating Jews/Israel on his blog. And I recall david Green found it on Keith's blog (which I would occ. read before then). So Green, i believe it was green, dragged out this screed against Keith, which he was embarrassed about. But now I can't find it anywhere. may it wasn't david green, but I was pretty sure it was. - Chu_
Chu... yep, when they try to pin Israel on US imperialism what they also do is 'discourage people' cause it makes the task of correcting the problem--having to overthrow the whole imperil system--- seem too big and impossible. - American
The ISIS Videos ---- (hummm?. something a little too Hollywood about these videos to me)
' The clip, obtained by The New York Times and NBC News, also includes images of the “Mission Accomplished” banner that flanked President George W. Bush during a speech he gave on an aircraft carrier shortly after the U.S. invaded Iraq, as well as images of President Obama and the White House at night. - American
'' Audio of Obama declaring that American combat troops would not return to Iraq is dubbed over part of the clip, followed by an image of ISIS militants preparing to kill kneeling hostages. The terror group has previously released videos depicting the brutal decapitation of two U.S. journalists and a British aid worker. The video concludes as the words “Flames of War” flash on the screen, followed by “Fighting has just begun” and “Coming Soon.” - American
Only things I can think about these videos. They are being manufactured by the usual suspects (and given to the NYT and media) to propagandize us into more ME war. Or 'if' they are made by ISIS their purpose is to attract fanatical fighters to their cause. The only other possible motive for ISIS in these videos is like OBL's plan to egg the US into the ME,' draw us in and drown us' in a war of attrition. But I find them very suspicious. - American
The whole ISIS thing is suspicious--they are Sunni supremest and Islam fanatics (or so we have been told)----who came as least partly out of the Syrian rebels Saudi organized and financed. But ISIS was obviously 'organized' before they broke out of the Syria rebels and went on their own warpath----so Saudi, Israel and other ME rulers intel sources were bound to have known ISIS was... more... - American
The vibes on ISIS are all wrong. YANO -- Yet Another Neocon Op? - Sean McBride
Some interesting Google searches on the subject: # [Google; isis *] 1. abu bakr al baghdadi 2. al qaeda 3. attack america 4. benghazi 5. cia 6. fake 7. false flag 8. fidel castro 9. hoax 10. hollywood 11. israel 12. john mccain 13. mossad 14. neoconservatives 15. nick berg 16. rita katz 17. simon elliot 18. site intelligence 19. takfiri 20. white house - Sean McBride
Something no one is talking about, as in NONE. For nearly two years the suicide attacks in the heart of Iraq have been increasing. 100 on almost any day. The majority directed against Shite citizen gathering places and sometimes government installations or symbols. Somebody was financing these destructive attacks. Somebody was organizing them. There clearly was a plan behind the scenes... more... - Danaa
Danaa, Saudi Arabia is the one hating on Iraq and Syria: for their friendship with Iran. It's the house of saud and it's inbred cousins scattered around the petro gulf (excluding the sultanate of oman), that are paying cash wages for Da'sh hate and murder rampages - money coming in from Turkey too - arms supplied by uk, usa, israel and france (paid for with petro dollars) - trained and... more... - Taxi
I agree with you taxi, about the funding sources and the not-so-secret "trainers". Also about the direction - all pointing towards Iran. Though, as we now know, there were also those who use Da'sh as proxy to run interference against Russia. I am sure that the behind=the-scenes, with Turkey, the CIA and Mossad playing back-up roles for Saudi Arabia things must have been - and are -... more... - Danaa
Someone described Turkey's mideast policy as akin to milking the cow then kicking the pail - and it just keeps kicking and kicking it hoping the milk will get back into the pail all nice and white again. - Taxi
Sean McBride
MJayRosenberg: "The new Mondoweiss is so stale. Does home page ever change?"
The new interface has radically degraded the energy level of Mondoweiss. They should revert to the old interface and demand a refund. - Sean McBride
can you search for peoples comments any longer? Mondoweiss has past its peak and is heading to the dustbin. It was a good run though.. - Chu_
Wow, We all agree. It's not for the dustbin though nearly yet. - WJones
The designers are either careless, incompetent, or intentional. - WJones
Don't forget that you can use Google to search Mondoweiss, for instance: [Google;] - Sean McBride
My impression is that the new design was deliberately intended to devalue comments as much as possible -- and it has succeeded. - Sean McBride
Adam said they were working on the fixes for last 100 comments. But no updates and it' been more than a month. Are they behind in paying the Crowd Favorite? - Chu_
Sean would have done a better job - even if he doesn't know how to design websites. LOL - WJones
At the start of any website upgrade you meet with the developer and state what do you want to improve. They have went the other route, 'all hat and no cattle'. - Chu_
Whatever adam and phil intentions re the 'upgrade'. the site is a lot less than it was----not good at all. ..the old was much better. This is laid out all wrong, very clumsy. - American
graph number of Mondoweiss comments per month for the past five years - Sean McBride
This upgrade was a downgrade. - Sean McBride
Must unfortunately agree with you all. The new site has a discouraging feel to it.It's not just the comments but also the layout. No one comes to MW for photos and special effects. Those are mostly stock photos anyways. People come to MW for content and that content is now obscured in the interest of the infamous "clean" layout, and HuffPo style screaming graphics. . - Danaa
That before I even get to content. I also suspect a key part of the reason for the redesign was to "hide" or "obscure" the comments AND the archives, without actually eliminating them. Can't think of any other reason for the new design, since there seems to be no advantage. It did occur to me that this new style may be cheaper too. - Danaa
I suspect that a quick survey of all who read MW - comment or not - would show that hands down most dislike the new format. AS I said, it's hard finding a single reason why it's better than the old design, unless, as I suggested, it's a lot cheaper. - Danaa
Cheapness doesn't count because it's a "sunk cost" - IE there is no reason in terms of cost to pay money to design a website when the money was already paid years ago for a different design. - WJones
Huffpo has a good look to it - WJones
They now have longer deadlines for comments. My guess is that they weren't trying to kill the site, and that it was the designer - Crowd Favorite. - WJones
I agree w Danaa. They don't want to kill the site but cripple the comments section and become more of a huff post - Chu_ from Android
HuffPo does a great job of "hiding" the comments. they are there, heavily moderated, but the layout is such as to detract attention from them. Some people still comment on HuffPo but most would never bother. What on earth for if hardly anyone reads the comments or willing to go through hoops to add their voice? I actually hate their layout and rarely if ever consult HuffPo unless... more... - Danaa
I fear that Phil has been listening to the wrong people when it comes to the comments section. My rule of thumb would be to sample only protestants when it comes to comments and general interactive type forums, or really, any social setting. That's because I find protestant derived indivduals both more tolerant in debating styles and with greater tendency to see the bright side in... more... - Danaa
Huff post, to me, looks like a good news site in its appearance. But I agree that they downplay comments. - WJones
I agree with Danaa, the protestant or gentile style of communication doesnt mesh with the Jewish style. We are a lot more direct and to the point and I dont mean in a rude way---just to the point. We tend to bottom line things.and be more straight forward.. Commenting on MW is not good for my writing habits---I have to contort all around to 'soften up' my comments when there is nothing... more... - American
Killed by design. - Taxi
Wow, another MWer showed up. - WJones
So, what brings you here, Taxi? - WJones
It looks like a lot of people are saying this. it's probably the consensus by now. - WJones
The 'design' brings me here, Jonezy. - Taxi
Taxi! I know that name... - Chu_
Oooh it's been a while that I've seen that word " quorum". Quorum: "the minimum number of members of an assembly or society that must be present at any of its meetings to make the proceedings of that meeting valid" - MacBook Pro Dictionary. Hey thanks Chu and WJones for the faraway wave - waving back at yaz! BTW I wrote a friend about all the points that I think are wrong with the new... more... - Taxi
Taxi -- you should post your critique of the new Mondoweiss design here -- I would love to peruse your points. - Sean McBride
I might just do that, Sean - oblige you even though you bum me out when you think me a sassy Sisi sycophant. - Taxi
"sassy Sisi sycophant" -- how can one not appreciate someone who can craft a phrase like that? :) My mind is certainly open to better understanding your views on Egyptian politics. - Sean McBride
Taxi - gradual recession of free speech last 2 years is a nice way of putting it. I looked back to see when this all started, I thought it was Donald, but the new edict on oct 24, 2010 was written by Phil and Adam which basically say no more free dialogue. "But we’re going to sharply circumscribe commenters’ freedom... more... - Chu_
Taxi, your tongue is a sharp as ever - this is a glum little group here sometimes. Come glam us up.... - Danaa
Also, Taxi,we could use another voice in Sean's and my interminabble sqabble over the virtues and demerits of Twitter. He loves it, as in every one of its 100 permitted characters. And me, well, wordy as my word ever was, it just won't do. In the meantime, I win, because he brings useful twits here, so I have even less reason to scour the universe of idle verbiage and surly hashtags. - Danaa
Sean, just think where we might be right now if Morsi, who supported the cannibal terrorists occupying chunks of Syria, had stayed in power and his 'special' armed wing of the moslem brotherhood in the Sinai had taken full hold of the terrain there and infiltrated and flooded arms and monthly wages and their ideology into a desperate Gaza: redefining the Palestinian struggle in terms of... more... - Taxi
Hey Danaa - I'm not a member of twitter but every couple of days or so I click on this (bookmarked) twitter link for a laugh: - Taxi
Taxi, did you believe the results of the Al Sisi election? 96.1% sounds a bit unnatural. Seem's very possible he could morph into another dictator like Mubarak. - Chu_
Taxi -- you may be right about Morsi -- I will readily admit that I don't know as much about Egyptian politics as you do. I will pay attention to whatever you post on that subject. In our last exchanges on this topic I was mainly reacting in a visceral way to the [Wikipedia; August 2013 Rabaa Massacre]. That was a bit too rich for my blood. - Sean McBride
Taxi, On Morsi. OK, you could be right. In the flip side, predictions are tough to make. If Morsi was in power still, maybe the Israelis might have not bombed Gaza because Gaza would be supported by Egypt. And maybe the crazy ISIS guys would not have been so powerful and extreme because Morsi could effectively support more moderate elements in the FSA. On the other hand, yes, maybe... more... - WJones
Chu, Of course it's not like 96% of Egyptians want Al Sisi (or for that matter Morsi). Ice cream would probably get 60-90% of votes in a popularity contest. Let me put it this way: Al Sisi and Morsi are not more popular than ice cream. - WJones
ha ha Jones. My point is 96% is only seen on the congressional floor. - when AIPAC cracks the whip for a vote. - Chu_
Israel has some popularity among everyday Americans, but it's not 96%, better than ice cream, populatiy - WJones
did you see that bogus plan about Egypt wants to put Gaza in the Sinai? Al Sisi or any Egyptian wouldn't propose such a plan. Sounds like Israeli misinformation being spread. Jonathan Tobin [Commentary Magazine] jumped on this pronto and described it as a “healthy sign.” - Chu_
Probably you are right. - WJones
'Sisi, an ex-military man who drums the patriotic chord daily, will definitely not ignore the thousands of Egyptian soldiers who lost their lives in the 1973 war, or the daring quest for peace that followed and the tricky negotiations, including an international tribunal for the disputed area of Taba, just to regain the last inch of Sinai. Anwar Sadat lost his life for Sinai, and Sisi... more... - Chu_
Midnight here - nighty night all ye old codgers! Seeyaz all in the marrows of tomorrow. - Taxi
You just said it's midnight. What time zone is that? Jerusalem, Cairo, or Athens? - WJones
TAXI: Subscribe me. - WJones
I'm in south Lebanon - 90 miles away from Jerusalem. - Taxi
Whatcha doin there? (In general) - WJones
When I see your name, I have an urge to tell you: "Get a taxi!" - WJones
I guess that's better than telling me to 'Get a Room!' - Taxi
I came for a bit of socio-political tourism, visiting this country and that in the middle east, then I eventually visited a friend's village here in the south of Lebanon and decided to extend my visit and rented a small farmhouse on the edge of northernmost point of the Galilee. The old part of the village here looks like old Jerusalem - very unspoiled and some natives still live on... more... - Taxi
S. Lebanon....say what up to the Hez for me...I was saying to Danaa last week how I heard that Izzy is getting an itchy trigger finger with the Hez. They're of course worried about them stockpiling all these new weapons. But Danaa seems to believe that they require another enemy at the gates which is fundamental to their cult behavior & unity. Plus, I don't think they have the gall to... more... - Chu_
Chu, the izzies dare not risk the hizb's promise of 90.000 rockets on tel aviv "and beyond" if they fuck with Lebanon again. No the israelis won't do that, but they are certainly cultivating Al Nusra in the Golan (73 miles from where I am) in the hope that eventually Al Nusra would have a military engagement with the hizb and weaken them, or at least tie up the hands of special hizb... more... - Taxi
Col Lang agrees and I think he has a good background for assessing it....>" Israel was lucky that Hizbullah did not throw all that stuff at them during the Gaza unpleasantness. Very lucky. This colonel is right. Iron Dome would fail against the fire that Hisbullah can bring down on them and it would have failed even more catastrophically against an HB/Hamas combined effort.... more... - American
MW--->""But we’re going to sharply circumscribe commenters’ freedom to address these issues as a special or unique Jewish problem, or to post arguments that any form of collective Jewish community-building is negative." IMO this is -The Jewish Fatal Flaw. While they eternally critique and often tear to shreds every non Jewish culture they are mentally incapable of grasping the necessity... more... - American
Sean should read up on how it's American policy to help maintain isarel's military superiority over all Arab countries - how it's the norm for the usa to use threat and coercion to stop other countries from selling sophisticated weaponry especially to the Levant Arabs. Sean should read the laughable list of weapons America gives to Lebanon, for instance. Hey, if Lebanon was allowed the... more... - Taxi
Taxi, and now it is being said US is providing intel and weapons to Lebanon. Is the Daily Star a good info source for inside Lebanon? - Chu_
The Daily Star used to be a lot better before they got into money trouble a couple of years ago, were about to close down, when Saudi Arabia came to its rescue. Generally speaking, it tries to stay away from disseminating propaganda, but it sure got a subtle pro-saudi tone to its analytical pieces. - Taxi
Some Israeli nationalists debating on internet forums actually enjoy driving other users nuts with their dishonest claims, triumphalism, and aggression against Palestinians.
They like it so much, I have a hard time seeing them pulling back voluntarily. - WJones
They hate the word "Palestinian" so much, it is hard to see them treating a "Palestinian State", whose fate they now dominate, in a tolerable way. - WJones
And there's really no way to regulate the Israeli nationalists either in their fervor, unless they go totally off the rails. - WJones
They don't want to really debate honestly. They prefer gloating and muttering on about a fantasy god giving them real estate, while they think they are some neo-sparta. but take away their pork pie from uncle Sam and they got nothing. - Chu_
Have you ever debated one at length, like for an hour in discussion directly, or over a week on the internet? - WJones
No. To real live debate. - Chu_ from Android
So you have had a daily debate (say, one post a day) that lasted at least a week with an Israeli nationalist? - WJones
if hophmi is an Israeli nationalist, then yes. Also wondering Jew is another slippery guy that I guess you can say debates. But when they get a lot of pressure, they leave. Or pick any of the MW classic trolls, Witty, eee, etc. - Chu_
and sorry i didn't join the christian debate site you mentioned. After you said there were layers to gain access, I knew I'd be out of my league. That and free time is in short supply. - Chu_
Witty was too good a debater for MW's editors to handle. - WJones
yeah, he was a slippery guy. kinda miss his tactics. but he thought he could lull people into his perspective, but eventually got the masses enraged. I though Phil's banning of Witty was unnessary but I think he did it to say he was being balanced. MW terminated potsherd, who never said anything controversial, basically bitched a lot. - Chu_
Witty engaged his audience, and in that way he was more like Hasb agents I've seen on other forums. MW Hasb trolls are unusual in that they usually dont really try to engage people very well. - WJones
Unfortunately, you are right that "They don't want to really debate honestly." - WJones
I've yet to see a pro zionist admit Israel was a bad idea. Even JonS gets super defensive for Israel during Israel's killing sprees, but he seems to act like a liberal zionist in all other modes. Have you been able to debate them? - Chu_ from Android
I had to set a mental limit on my debates- like ten days only, or else it gets overwhelming. The most success I had with one person was to point out that thy would no longer be accepted for aliyah because they became Christian. It didn't change his overall view much though. - WJones
Their toughest issue is discrimination of Christians, because they prefer to see it as against Islam. - WJones
I remember articles how Israeli punks freely spit on the Greek Orthodox in the Greek quarter. What is scary is that this rising fascism in Israel has only increased since Rabin's assassination. The settler's, the army, the government are all working to achieve greater Israel. The perception problem they have now is that more US people are seeing that they are the problem for peace and... more... - Chu_
I see responses to obvious ziobots as useful only to inspire one to put together a good rebuttal as a way of disseminating information. I doubt anyone with any experience on the nets still believes they can change a ziobot's mind with cogent argument/facts. not going to happen. By definition, actually since zionism is more like a cult/deeply held ideology than an opinion or a conviction that's amenable to facts. - Danaa
The important role that ziobots play on MW, and other blogs is in getting people to assemble good information together that is then useful to the rest of us, lazy bums. This is one of the services rendered by Hostage when he stooped to responding to, say, hophmi, who had no standing in either the logic or fact based department. When Hostage was on, it was a very uneven battle, almost... more... - Danaa
In my own case, the ziobots allowed me a chance to sharpen my vocabulary and sometimes interject comic interludes - - yes, I wouldn't mind being Mooser's opening could do worse.... - Danaa
And in Witty's case, he inspired my start and long descent into the balmy/gooey realm of internet psychologizing. It was, I think a triumphant debut on the reality killing fields. - Danaa
But WJones, I know you are a serious more earnest human than myself. Just hate to see you waste valuable time on heart-drains and brainthrobes. - Danaa
Jones. If you ever want to chat with Witty, he always maintained a wordpress blog. see link: I thought I saw a comment on Lobe Blog from Witty about a year ago, that seemed like he changed. He didn't sound as slippery, more sincere. But I could be wrong - Chu_
Also I've never got a solid answer to this question from any pro-Israel defender: 'If the US and Israel are such close allies, what does the US receive in return from Israel that is equivalent to what we provide them?' Usually you'll hear some murmurings about medical technology, security systems, spreading the Western ideals (a big lie). - Chu_
Their answer is they spy on and fight in the Mideast. In Herzl's thinking they are a buffer or outpost. Now, more likely, they actually inflame things more, but that's the answer from the pro-Israeli side. - WJones
ask the Arabs, they are a blight to their Islamic sphere. And they are a drain for US and it's fading imperial power. Israel is siphoning the gasoline out of uncle Sam's foreign policy. - Chu_
Sean McBride
That Christopher Lydon show on liberal Zionism with Peter Beinart, Philip Weiss, Bernard Avishai and Jane Eisner
I finally got around to listening to it. A few observations: - Sean McBride
Smartest person in the discussion: Lydon. Then Phil, then Beinart, then Avishai, then Eisner. - Sean McBride
Bernard Avishai and Jane Eisner are out to lunch, woolgathering, expressing classical liberal Zionist platitudes without any sense of the absurdity of their oxymoronic beliefs. They are sentimental, emotional, confused, in denial on the current state of Israeli politics. - Sean McBride
Woolgathering: indulgence in aimless thought or dreamy imagining; absentmindedness. - Sean McBride
Phil Weiss tried to cut through their empty obfuscation with a sense of urgency and emergency, but Avishai blew him off with a vague attitude of intellectual superiority (quite delusional on his part). - Sean McBride
Peter Beinart made an effort to draw distinctions between Americanism (modern Western democratic values, universalism, civic nationalism) and Zionism (ethnic and religious nationalism), but the conversation on that core topic went nowhere. - Sean McBride
There are surprisingly few comments on Lydon's website -- which underlines the point that Mondoweiss has been amazingly effective in inspiring intense and high-quality engagement with and among its readers. It would be a mistake for Mondoweiss to abandon (or even sabotage) that asset. - Sean McBride
I expected this show to deconstruct the term "liberal Zionism," but Avishai and Eisner successfully derailed that effort -- which is the typical pattern of behavior of liberal Zionists. The usual strategy: yes, we know that Israeli politics is on a bad track, but we *hope* that matters will improve in the future. But they never offer any realistic proposals for effecting that change. They are running interference for Likud Zionism and Greater Israelism. - Sean McBride
I have basically lost interest in even following the Jewish inter-fight on Israel because I dont think it will go anywhere important or change anything on Israel or US-Isr. Its become just useless noise. Phil wont get anywhere with this because he will not attack Jews or Zionist where they live..i.e... in their delusions of most important innocent victims in the universe and... more... - American
Notice that none of the participants are actually israelis (well, Bernard kind of is but a very very removed kind of Israeli - looking at everything from within his tiny leftist fortress). Moti peled could have single-handedly blown the two lib-zios away as if they were feathers. He knows the reality and can speak to it. Avishai can only speak to a wanna-be "reality" one that he thinks... more... - Danaa
Avishai gets away with his lib-zio shtick only as long as there are no real israelis around to disabuse him of his Alice in Wonderland scenarios. It's not to us that he lies. It's to himself. The magnes Zionist is, BTW, so much better (am using him for comparison because he, like Avishai, is a half-time israel academic, half-time American). - Danaa
One more thought - that Anglo-zionist concept off The saker - it just occurred to me that Avishai is a perfect example of the contamination of Anglo 1% style neoliberalism when grafted with Kudsu ivy of the Zio genome. - Danaa
Avishai and Eisner: self-hypnotized, self-deceived, fiddling while Rome burns, heads buried in the sand, etc. Liberal Zionist true believers. - Sean McBride
Further note on this show: many of the discussions among Mondoweiss commenters on these issues have been vastly superior in quality and substance to this broadcast. - Sean McBride
Online forums provide much superior tools for developing arguments in detail and with precision than TV and radio discussion formats. Points can be exhaustively pinned down. - Sean McBride
The Triple Package: How Three Unlikely Traits Explain the Rise and Fall of Cultural Groups in America’
Chua and Rubenfeld seek to explain why certain cultural groups in America “do strikingly better than others in terms of wealth, position and other conventional measures of success.” They argue that eight groups are exemplary in this regard — Cubans, East Asians, Indians, Jews, Lebanese, Mormons, Nigerians and Persians — because they share a set of “unlikely” cultural characteristics. - Chu_
1. a belief in your own group’s self-worth and superiority; “2. an anxious uncertainty about your worth or place in society”; 3. and the discipline to resist temptation and endure in the face of opposition, - Chu_
"Other groups, of course, don’t exhibit the Triple Package: Appalachian people, African Americans and those who’ve embraced the allegedly permissive and hedonistic “mainstream, post-1960s liberal American principles” that have, we later learn, led to our national downfall. " - Chu_
Interesting. But what the 'Asia' Chau leaves out is she had ''to imigrate to a country set up by 'non Asians' for her '3 traits' to bring her any success. And we can see by Israel what the 3 traits of Jews have resulted in. US Cubans who fled Cuba couldnt even hold their own powerful and privilaged class positions against Castro. So much for their '3 traits.' - American
Another interesting 'trait' about immigrants with ethnic superitory attitudes is they dont explain why with their superior traits they couldnt manage to make their own countries to their liking and had to leave them. If these ethnics had superior traits you would think they could create a superior society in their own countries--but they dont do they? - American
I had a Cuban classmate in high school who everyone hated. His father had transferred his money out of Cuba before Castro took over but this guy couldnt get over not having 'servants' like his family had in Cuba and not being being considered upper or ruling class here in the US like they had been in Cuba. He was very bitter about it--which translated into constantly insulting all of us American mongrels because we didn't act subservient toward him. - American
Regarding the Chua groups (funny how she saw fit to add Nigerians. How many has any one of us met recently? must have been a very large migration indeed. Or perhaps just confined geographically? I am serious - have not met or heard of a single nigerian in California, washington State, Arizona or Texas. So where is this illustrious group located? - Danaa
Glad you brought this book back into play, Chu. I did not read it yet, only summaries, but two things strike me right away: immigrants from most of the groups mentioned have generally come from the more well off parts of their society. IOW, when immigrants arrive, they get to partake of monetary and support resources already available to them in the states As WELL AS drw on resources in... more... - Danaa
The other two groups - Jews and Mormons are unique in their tribalism. Mormons cornered an entire state and jews cornered entire professions. Both of these groups rely on tribal network and access to opportunities/capital/connections. An enterprising mormon and jewish person will always have a place to go to for raising that first chunk of cash they need for a new business. America,... more... - Danaa
I did not mention the east Asian groups (Koreans, Chinese) because those are complicated groupings that require longer comments than FF is appropriate for. Besides, I wouldn't want to repeat what others have already said without attribution. - Danaa
I have some good personal experience to draw on when it comes to the advantages of ethnic based networks in the US. Not just my own but observations of others with whom I came into contact. - Danaa
danaa fyi. you cant talk about minority powers in USA :D serious though I remember you mention the wink wink with co religioninsts in the workplace. I've seen it myself. And it's not only them, but other people who are asian-nation, et al. - Chu_
I take it you agree, Chu, right? I've said before - and it's only an assertion based on experience, not a proper study - that were Jews not uniquely tied to the failed moral enterprise called Israel, were israel not in play, Jews would be very much like mormons and other strongly networked groups in the US. They would still have huge influence - well beyond their numbers, they would... more... - Danaa
Some of us wish Chinese Americans were more political, at least locally. It was hard enough to just get them to be proactive with regard to a local school board. They complain a little then take their children to extra-curricular studies, like Kumon, if they feel school falls short. While the rest of us jump through hoops trying to fix the curriculum on local, state and sometimes even... more... - Danaa
Apologies to all if i struck a wrong note somewhere - how could I not, with so many ethnicities to mention and ruminate about. Still, I could not believe Chua could make the arguments she did in her book. But I know why - the jews gave her cover - no wonder she put in the Nigerians as one of the 8 groups (members of which none of us probably met. a very small minority) - I could so hear... more... - Danaa
PS - was trying to give pepsi some material. I know he needs some.... - Danaa
Sean McBride
Web-based publications without lively and high-quality comment sections are boring as hell.
I agree. The comments section has become integral to the article. Comments sections make it public square - open to criticism or embellishing the article. - Chu_
Many of the most popular blogs attract a cohort of commentators, who agree or disagree with the blog's author, are nonetheless attracted over and over by the lively discussion. - Danaa
So, I agree with both Chu and Sean. lately I have been wondering why some blogs become super-popular while others, often authored by interesting people, languish. I think I am seeing a few rules of thumb emerging as the key to popularity. One is a great comment section with lots of participants. Another rule is the blog author himself/herself. Generally people seem to like something about the blog owner, an aspect highlighted by their willingness to engage with commentators. - Danaa
Example: Moon of Alabama. A very loyal following this blog has gathered. Articles often garner over 100's of comments. Many that are useful with new links and a few that are downright insightful. - Danaa
Of course, with lots of commenters around, a few food fights will always break up, but smart blog owners seem good at defusing those, sometimes by letting them run out of steam, rather than run a few offensive characters out of town. - Danaa
mondoweiss seems to be withering on the vine nowadays. Can you even go back and edit your comments yet, or go to the last 100 comments? It's been a month and they haven't addressed these items. - Chu_
A recent blog I have been consulting for news and opinions about Ukraine is The Vineyard of The Saker. It's quite good, having attracted numerous people who translate articles from Russian and sometimes provide subtitles. Something about The saker makes him a sympatico figure. He writes at length, has analytical skills AND, very importantly, a point of view which he articulately... more... - Danaa
MW's comment section seems to be suffering. Maybe they like it that way. - American
The saker's blog reminds me of Glenn greenwald original Salon perch. Same kind of chaotic and free for all feel to the comments section, similar participation level by the Blog owner, similar cadre of well reasoning vs shrill or knee jerk comentators, that the blog owner nonetheless tolerates (unless they get out of hand, in which case they get suspended for a while). - Danaa
American, I agree about the suffering of the Comments section at MW. I partly expected that to happen as a side effect of the blog's popularity. I wouldn't give up commenting altogether though, even though I rarely engage because of the limited responses. - Danaa
vineyard of the saker (eagle) - so that's like a catbird seat reference. I read it last time, will check it out again. There are so many places to go for data nowadays. It's terrific. - Chu_
"From the Saker himself: "While I do not distrust any specific person amongst you, I am trying to keep my "thin anonymity" up as long as possible. Once my read identity comes up (which I know will happen sooner or later), it will be a major distraction and a pain in the a** for me to deal with. I want to keep focusing on issues and topics, not personalities. If I start accepting money... more... - Chu_
By contrast I bring you Richard Silverstein's blog which has comments but not so many. I won't say more but I do believe that the key to the difference (and I DO like many of Silverstein's article - he carved himself a good niche and is pretty prolific). is the level and tenor of engagement by the blog owner. Richard is quick to identify and shoot down some of the nastier intruders, but he is much more terse or just sparse in engaging with supporters or his view or others who try to enlarge upon it. - Danaa
"Off the top of my head, he lives in Florida, he is of Russian descent but his family were anti-Soviet dissidents who left. At one point he was a military analyst during the Kosovo war, and very pro-war, pro-West until some of his experiences during that war changed him and he left that profession in disgust. He was anti-Soviet but has gradually become pro-Putin. He gets a bit effusive... more... - Chu_
I like Vineyard of the Saker also. Here's another for those who like articles and reporting on a variety of countries..... met the editor, Les Blough, over the Israel issue 12 years ago when he lived in Boston. He moved to Venezuela around 2004 I think it was and has kept his site going there. - American
Thanks Chu for bringing up that aspect. W. Jones - this should interest you: The Saker is passionately attached to his orrthodox Christian faith, especially the more mystical aspects of it. He is a good example of a blogger who is informed through a near-religious ardor, which, again one may or may not connect to, but it provides a great hook for his passion. People out there need to... more... - Danaa
Thanks for the recommendation American. I'll check it out. Am always on the prawl for smart jewels on the nets. For me, BTW< the motivation for reading alternative and deeper takes on given situations, is sometimes just that - I am drawn to sparkle (but hate diamonds so please don't send me any.....I may give to the first homeless person I see. Me love Plastic and shiny glass baubles...) - Danaa
The Saker writes: " I just want to say that this difference between what I was reading in the press and in the UNPROFOR reports ended up making a huge difference in my entire life. Again, NOT A SINGLE ASPECT OF THE OFFICIAL NARRATIVE WAS TRUE, not one. You would get much closer to the truth if you basically did a "negative" of the official narrative.” - WJones
Sounds like the official IP narrative. - WJones
W Jones - sometime when you get a chance tell us what you think of Russian Orthodoxy as a faith. I know next to nothing about it (unsurprisingly). - Danaa
Danaa, Do you think Israel is going to focus on Hezbollah? I cant understand the logic with Israel often. - Chu_
Chu, when it comes to news from the vauned halls of Israel's great strategic thinkers and tinkerers, an ounce of caution beats a pound of gold. israel, as you well know, always needs an enemy to beat up on - or at least the prospect of amilitary action somewhere on the horizon. With the gaza operation wound down, Iran shrill somewhat reduced to a white noise hiss, ISIS being the new... more... - Danaa
I see your point about the enemy on the distant horizon. I read early in the summer that Israel feared Hezbollah's stash of weapons has increased greatly from the Syrian civil war and true to form, Israel was getting the itchy trigger finger about their stockpiles of weaponry. - Chu_
Danaa: Russian, Greek, and Middle Eastern Orthodox Christianity are basically the same thing. The differences are not considered religiously significant. It carries on the religion of the first centuries of mainstream Christianity, like the Greek Church fathers, St. Jerome, Tertullian, etc. It is like Christianity without the additions that Catholicism and Protestantism made to it. It... more... - WJones
Since the time of the Bolshevik revolution, the church in Russia became very weak politically, but it has a very important cultural and spiritual value for Russian people, even though church attendance is probably less frequent than among Americans. - WJones
It has a strong mystical, prayerful side of it like Buddhism does. But it is not Buddhist in its philosophies. It's just that it is more Eastern in its meditation. - WJones
There are major elements of Orthodox worship like menorahs and hakafahs that are direct carry-overs from Orthodox Judaism. - WJones
Thanks for the elucidations, WJones. I wish I had more time to learn something about the different denominations. one thing Ukraine taught us is that the Russian and catholic orthodox versions are quite divergent with the first common in east Ukraine and the second in the western part. It seems that religion became kind of tied up in this conflict, partly perhaps because the Russian... more... - Danaa
OK, here is what happened. Palestine and Ukraine were, since the beginning Orthodox. Their services were much like Orthodox Judaism and have a strong aspect of meditation. In 1100-1400 AD, Poland captured West Ukraine and Palestine and made an arrangement with many of the Christians where they could keep acting like Orthodox in their worship services but they would have to swear... more... - WJones
Assuming Sean McBride hasn't been excommunicated (I am using humor here, guys), he could go take Communion in any of the Eastern Catholic churches in Palestine or Ukraine. In Christianity, Communion reflects the idea that you are in full spiritual unity with other people. - WJones
"In Christianity, Communion reflects the idea that you are in full spiritual unity with other people." -- this is an aspect of Christianity that I find appealing. - Sean McBride
Me too. That's why I wish Catholics had coffee hour like Orthodox do. But then again, Catholic Churches do a good job with their public festivals and block parties. - WJones
why do greek orthodox dress in black robes and wear skullcaps? Is this stemming from Judaic practices? - Chu_
Offhand I don't know of any Greek Orthodox who wear skullcaps. Some of the Egyptian (Coptic) monks wear a head covering that fits tightly around the skull and flows down the back, but they are not in our communion. There are really four or five main branches of mainstream Christianity: Protestants, Catholics, Greek/Russian Orthodox, Coptic/Oriental "Orthodox"(monophysites), and the... more... - WJones
The black dress may come from Judaic practices, but I don't know. Personal modesty and humbleness is important in their thinking, as opposed to being showy. It's a personal ascetic style. - WJones
Greeks wear a "skufia", but it is not the same as a skullcap because it does not lie flat on the skull like a skullcap. I believe that it does come from Jewish practices, but it could be coincidence. Pagan romans wore hats too, for example. - WJones
interesting. I searched and found an 'An Around-the-World History of the Skullcap and its Modern Socio-Political Significance'. 60+pgs - Chu_
Good overview WJones - you should write a new Guide for the Perplexed Neo-Pagans ....the ways in which early Christianity split is quite interesting. I never knew much about that period. In the israeli school system mum's the word, so all I know are tid-bits I picked up along the way.... - Danaa
Islam is an example of splintering of Christianity in my view. Muslims call Jesus the Christ (Masih) and consider Mary to have been a virgin. The fact that they don't consider Him God in my view doesnt mean they arent Christian, because some other Christian sects didn't, early on. - WJones
It's a common, although not the official, view that the differences between Nestorians, Oriental(eg Coptic), and Greek Orthodox Christians are mainly semantic and there are efforts to get the churches to reunite. Personally, I think that in theology they split over a semantic argument, a bit like the debate on Supersessionism is between Christians who arent CZs. - WJones
for Muslims Christ is a prophet. And they always say right after his name - 'peace be upon him'. - Chu_
<<for Muslims Christ is a prophet. And they always say right after his name - 'peace be upon him'. >> Right. But Christ was a prophet too. - WJones
jones, what's sad abou Jesus in the USA sometimes is that many people exploit it. i.e. convicts, crooks, & born-agains use Christ as a get out of jail card. It pollutes the core message and it's exploited by Media. Look at comments online, so many people blame christianity for all, but they miss the core message. I know people first hand who complain about religion, especially Christianity, but don't criticize Judaism for the apartheid state. They are huff post people generally. Surely you've seen it. - Chu_
I can imagine, - WJones
Interesting definitions from The Saker - an Anglo-Zionist
This is worth a read. I liked the way he conflated the Anglo and the Zio with the 1%. It's kind of like a Venn diagram. Lots of overlap. - Danaa
The phenomenon of the Neo-Con/Neo-Lib does indeed seem to have been invented in the Anglo-sphere. I think what The saker gets right is that - although they came from vastly different places - neocon, from imperial foreign policy (with zio overtones) and neoliberal from economic models, there does seem to have been a convergence of sorts. Possibly the overlap happened through the zionist/Jewish branches. Back to my Ivy model i think. - Danaa
Chu, Sean, this BTW is the kind of thing I had in mind for a tree of ideas. Strange branchings, convergences and confluences. Interestingly for the prefix "neo" - neo-conservative is hardly a true conservative and neo-liberal is hardly a true liberal. It seems that the neonatal phase of ideas is as different from its progenitor as neonatal is from prenatal. - Danaa
I am into prefixes today. Anyone noticed that the protagonist name in The matrix is "Neo"? must contemplate.... - Danaa
An aside; i highly recommend The saker blog. One of the few places where one can find dependable updates of the evolving military situation in Ukraine. Plus he gets some interesting summaries from others about other conflict areas of the world (SITREPS). - Danaa
The Vineyard of The Saker is a good companion blog to Moon of Alabama. those two are essential readings for maintaining sanity while observing the machinations of the empire of chaos. - Danaa
But when you mention the strange convergences, give me a few examples? I see the tree could be modeled as two sides of a leaf (Anglo/Zio). Although I almost feel like the Anglo formed the power structure, and Jews eventually found a way to move in to this power structure and replace the old anglo realm, like the universities. (I noticed sayer mentions banking) - Chu_
The saker's take is of course, not complete. For example, it obviously can't be just on the 1% level - think of the Christian Zionists on one side, and ultra-orthodox communities on the other side. So the basic concept needs ome extensions to "lower" levels, which is where the "branches" come in. - Danaa
Chu, I like your idea of the Anglo forming the power structure (cf, the tree trunk + lower branches?) with the jewish power structure basically "grafting" itself onto the original tree - surrounding the trunk and growing new branches to almost take over the original ones. I need to think through this idea, especially figure out what the roots are. Sometimes agricultural world can be inspiring....except for some reason I still got this invasive ivy image splashing around in the brain.... - Danaa
' what the roots are. Sometimes agricultural world can be inspiring....except for some reason I still got this invasive ivy image splashing around in the brain.... - Danaa )......I think what you need to liken the Zios grafting onto the US or Anglo's tree is the Kudzu weed................ - American
Thanks American - I remember MRW brought up this Kudzo weed - I'll look into it as a good example of a particularly voracious plant species. - Danaa
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Settler group demands segregated bus lines out of fear for security -
A settler group has posted a video of a bus filled with Palestinian man alongside a Jewish woman as a reason to segregate buses on the occupied West Bank for the security of Jews. Their flyer portrays integrated buses as a suicide bomb waiting to happen.
What is meant by 'occupied'? - David Spiegler
Look it up, David. It means conquered AND oppressed. Kind of like the conquistadors did to South America and the Mongolians did to Europe under Ginghis Khan. Sadly for the Mongols, they could not hang on to their occupied areas for more than a 100 years or so. Hopefully, Israel will be evicted from its conquered lands a little bit sooner. Conquest and occupation were BTW quite common in... more... - Danaa
Where are things headed in Palestine/Zion?
Their society is becoming seriously more intolerant about Palestinians and other religions with each generation. The rightwing Netanyahu lost popularity for not being abusive enough. Meanwhile, the US left and human rights community is rejecting their system of discrimination increasingly over the years. Their state has a continuing history of brutalization toward Palestinians along the lines of settlement of the West Bank, with occasional expulsions, especially in the Nakba. - WJones
At one end, they could reenact the Nakba, and this time kill or expel 75% of Palestinians. That would be tough in terms of international politics, even with the Arab countries' weaknesses. At the other end, we could see the fruition of the BDS movement like with South Africa. But it seems a long way from that. - WJones
Nonetheless, the situation seems very unstable, with a growing large minority of Israelis wishing for expulsion, and a solid history of conflict with the state, its neighbors and Palestinians. - WJones
What do you think, Sean and Danaa? - WJones
One scenario: Israel will move towards greater ethno-religious nationalist extremism, work to drive "the West" into an apocalyptic war against Islam (relying heavily on false flag ops), and use that chaos as an opportunity to expel most Palestinians from Greater Israel (or kill them). If Israel doesn't get its way, it will unleash the Samson Option on the world (nuclear, biological,... more... - Sean McBride
Another scenario: powerful Jewish players in the Diaspora recognize the dangers of the above scenario and force Israel to abandon its dream of building Greater Israel. Israel accepts the two-state solution and settles down into a state of normality vis-a-vis the rest of the world. - Sean McBride
At this point in history, scenario 1 seems more likely than scenario 2. - Sean McBride
If we're speculating I'd say Scenario 1 - except I believe the Sampson option is one big-old bluff. American Jews et al. are happy to continue helping Israelis with their greater Israel agenda. Some are sour about the prospect, but the large majority turn a blind eye to what happens every day. Dead Gazan children - so what - we're talking about the Jewish homeland and having Jews feel safe and comfy in their 'reclaimed' land. - Chu_
Why do you think the Samson Option is a bluff? - Sean McBride
I dont think they would use the Samson option unless they were going to be conquered or worse. They didn't use it in the Yom Kippur War when they were invaded and ended up giving up territory. I am not saying they wouldn't, just that it's pretty unlikely, since they would end up vanishing themselves. - WJones
As screwed up as the Israeli 'hive' mind is, I don't think they would run the risk of endangering every diaspora Jew in the world. If Israel so much as lobbed a few nukes toward Europe, there would likey be a witch hunt for Jews worldwide. What would American support say after Israel decimates other populations for no specific reason other than revenge and 'they weren't Jewish'? - Chu_
You aren't thinking creatively about the Samson Option. Extremists within the Israeli government wouldn't "lob a few nukes toward Europe." They could wreak havoc on a much greater scale than a few nukes while concealing the trail of evidence back to themselves. They could even frame Muslims for the deed. There is a sector of the Zionist establishment that does not operate within the rational framework that governs the thinking of most of us -- picture Jonestown writ large. - Sean McBride
[Wikipedia; Suitcase Nuke] - Sean McBride
I know they 'could' do more damage with their arsenal, but l was saying they targeted Europe. I don't know how you believe that they could conceal this. Major nukes get launched from specific sites. Were not talking field nukes (mini nukes) with the sampson option. - Chu_
The Samson Option includes portable nukes and mini-nukes, biological weapons, chemical weapons, cyberwarfare, financial warfare, etc. -- the whole shebang, in combination. Whatever works. - Sean McBride
Think of all the ways the global economy could be brought to its knees without using nuclear missiles. - Sean McBride
Envision more advanced versions of Stuxnet directed at American and European nuclear power plants. There are a zillion realistic scenarios. - Sean McBride
"Think of all the ways the global economy could be brought to its knees without using nuclear missiles. " - are we still talking about the Sampson option or something else? - Chu_
Is Judaism at it's core about revenge? Look at this Sampson option, or how it aims to undercut other religions. What is the aim? To restore Judaism as a world religion? Doubtful, since they are so particular about allowing outsiders into their ranks. - Chu_
Here's another possibility and imo, more likely. "Palestine Will Win" .............<<“The Palestinian people will win” may seem delusional and hyperbolic. But it is not a rhetorical device; it is a moral argument rooted in a reading of anti-colonial history. Israel has browbeaten the world, manipulated anti-Arab sentiment, and... more... - weareone
I see somebody has picked up the use of Russian style quotation marks. - WJones
Russians can even put quotation marks inside of their "pine tree style " quotation marks: «Пароход „Титаник“ столкнулся с айсбергом». - WJones
<<The steamer "Titanic" crashed with an iceberg>>. - WJones
Alt+0171 = « Alt+0187 = » - WJones
W.Jones, I agree about Israel's turn to the right and it becoming more orthodox and theocratic in character. That shift is well under way. The merging of extreme right wing politically, religion based sanctification, the growing paranoaia/xenophobia (cf persecution complex) and the indifference to human lives not theirs as witnessed during that Gaza assault, does portend dire winds. In... more... - Danaa
For one, you mentioned the "left" i the US. I am not sure there is such a thing. There is certainly no cohesive left in any kind of numbers that it would take to affect change of any kind. Just look at Citizens United. The "left" is united in wanting to repeal that. Their unity, such as it is, can result in no action because there are not enough of them and their influence on the... more... - Danaa
By the same token, Sean's "samson" option is not likely either. Israelis are, at the bottom of it, cowardly when it comes to their individual person - despite much sword waving and bluster. As a people they don't have the stamina for ritualistic harakiri. They can never produce a single Kamikazi pilot and they will never speak as one. What can happen is that crazy, irrational... more... - Danaa
Upshot: yes, the coming new naqba will be gaining force, as time goes on and will likely succeed in cornering palestinians into batustans before any major blow-back against the jewish state happens. Too many American jews support (many in secret) the "Greater israel" project. Too many other jews of the World are just too damn passive, just like the rest of us. Evil happens because good... more... - Danaa
The solution to the "Israel problem" will, I'm afraid, come from without, from outside the jewish sphere. It will come when enough people are hurt and enough information has become available to pinpoint the blame. That solution will go way beyond "anti-semitism", I'm afraid. It will come as part of a cataclismic rise against the 1% and will happen when global warming and peak oil... more... - Danaa
What about the fact that Russia and the Israelis have found each other useful at times? Russia wanted the Israeli state as an ally in 1948- it was the Israelis who went back on whatever assurances they gave Russia of actually being one of the nonaligned nations. Nowadays they do intelligence sharing. - WJones
In the meantime, more BDS, more broadly and unapologetically, is the best step forward. Buy nothing from Israel, trade with no one, boycott them culturally and academically. Disdain their tourists. More than anything, spread the word to others. Perhaps, who knows, something may happen before the most dire of scenarios I envision will come to pass. - Danaa
WJones - this "Bond" between israel and Russia is just something on the surface. Putin knows better than to have one enemy too many. The alliance is one between Oligarchs rather than any true real collusion of interests. The israelis know it is Russia that stands between them and their ultimate goal. The Russians know that what alliance they have there is one of convenience - don't take... more... - Danaa
'It will come as part of a cataclismic rise against the 1% and will happen when global warming and peak oil inflection points have been breached. ' - Danaa, It's interesting how they (Israelis and outside Jews) seem to continue their 'ho-hum' plot of occupation & eradication of Palestinians without much recourse. It's the power and the fear of that power that crushes the sense of normal... more... - Chu_
Chu - massive indifference, indeed. I'll post later a really interesting take of The Saker pn what Anglo-Zionists are. I could have practically written it myself - but with one addition - as the zio-neoconuts took over foreign policy and security instruments, such policy the US may have ever had became dumbed down all the way to the gutter. All the smart strategic thinking guys were... more... - Danaa
Danaa, thanks. I'll read the Saker piece later. And please post it on the other feed. We can leave the ideas there and hash them out later... - Chu_
Sean McBride
Tikun Olam: It cost Israel $1.2-million for every Gazan it killed during Operation Protective Slaughter.
A lot of the people who died were hamas and islamic jihad. Are you saying they should have lived? - David Spiegler
It seems israel lost only 67 storm troopers. Are you saying there should have been more for the price? - Danaa
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