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Danaa › Comments

Sean McBride
Max Blumenthal: MSNBC just ID'ed @rulajebreal as "Palestinian journalist." So will they ID @EliLake as "Jewish American journalist"? http://www.alternet.org/media... https://twitter.com/MaxBlum...
We should start clearly labeling all journalists in the American mainstream media who are lobbying for various causes -- including Jewish nationalism. Some of them are nothing but full-time propagandists for the Israeli government. - Sean McBride
Add three lanes. One that doesn't lobby at all, some that are part time, some that are full time. Jeffery Goldberg, Krauthammer, could be full time. Also a lane for those that advocate against lobby, like Steve Walt,etc - Chu_
With semantic markup one can get all these facts in order very quickly and then query them and revolve them around in your mind in interesting ways. It's all about carefully crafted category/instance pairs. - Sean McBride
I use a few thousand categories for describing players in the IP conflict -- and many more combinations of those categories. Danaa, I think, said she was satisfied with around five categories -- we are still not communicating about these issues :) -- we're talking past one another. - Sean McBride
I am still interested in the fundamental philosophical levels (the roots). It's my gig. Yours may be the branches that may spread into a canopy of "category/instance pairs". To each their own? - Danaa
I am saying that we probably don't yet understand each other's concepts and terminology -- which is good -- there is room for mutual discovery there. Perhaps we both have useful complementary ideas that can be integrated. - Sean McBride
American
Well, the lazy folks will never lead the parade --they will just fall in behind and be led. - Sean McBride
True. So here is my lecture to people. If you arent 'personally' speaking truth to power--as in personally calling the "powers' to express your outrage, opposition to Isr'merica, your opposition to any politicans that support it----then you arent a serious person. People like that are just using this Isr-P/I-US issue for academic.religious and intellectual games and excerise, as a hobby, in which they can generate conversations and demonstrate their knowledge and opinions. - American
Knowledge without action is useless. This is a habit commenters on their cause fall into. If everyone who comments on Isr on boards across the net made a call to their politicans at the same time and as often as they comment the US Isr problem would be solved by popular demand and outrage. - American
1 877 762 8762 ---- Congress - American
Don't be unfair, American. sean was just responding to my comment expressing exasperation with the laziness of the masses. I consider people who are at least motivated enough to say, read something like MW or MoA to be that much further ahead on the scale of "Immense laziness". Those who comment are a step further and those who act by say, writing to their reps, participating in some... more... - Danaa
I know that Sean sometimes resorts to lectury style. I'm sure he is working on that tendency. We need everyone we can have on-board, and having food-fights among us over style, misstatement, occasional outburst, etc are just the kind of diversions TPTB feed on. - Danaa
My issue continues to be not unlike yours - how can the people be woken up, short of a major disaster? they (TPTB) have ALL the MSM, ALL the money and ALL the influece. I see them rolling out the "Blame Russia" gavel-to-gavel accusation over the downing of MH17 and I shudder. hardly a flutter to disturb their tsunami of mis-information and propaganda. Even worse with gaza. - Danaa
WJones I think is doing a good job acting and informing and debating within the Christian community he knows. I am glad to see you, American, are in the midst of a writing campaign. I know a few others who do more. Can you imagine how much more could even just a few of us if we had serious money behind us? Why, we could hire some interns to send letter bombs, start initiatives, shadow reps etc etc. - Danaa
Which leads to a question - do you happen to have a good link to the State department? I guess I could google but i know you have the contacts handy. - Danaa
'' Don't be unfair, American...Danaa).....There is nothing "unfair' about it. And my lecture was to everyone, not Sean specifically. I have posted this 'lecture' on 7 blogs so far today..in between my faxs to Reid and Peliso on why my 168 democrats are leaving the party over Israel. Do'ers do what they can from where they are, some are in a position to do more than others but everyone... more... - American
The State Department has no public comment line. You have to call the 'country desk" at the State Dept of the country you want to ask a question about or comment on. - American
American -- I appreciate your lecture and agree with it. But I am pretty much convinced at this point that American politicians respond only to MONEY -- large sums of it. That is the political "activism" that gets their attention. And few of us are in the financial league of the oligarchs (billionaires and hectomillionaires) who own and control the Democratic and Republican Parties, the mainstream media and the leading policy centers. - Sean McBride
That leaves the Internet as one powerful way to oppose them -- and I do think it has having some impact -- with the potential for much more impact in the future. - Sean McBride
congress has a 15% approval. They are whores to big capitol and oligarchs. http://www.gallup.com/poll... "More than one in five say replacing all members is best way to fix it" - Chu_
Phil Weiss posted this today on MW: http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - Sean McBride
"My colleague, Matt Frei, tweeted that CNN’s Wolf Blitzer interview with Netanyahu was less a grilling more “a warm bath and a back rub”. Others used more profane metaphors." - Sean McBride
"But now, for the first time in a major Arab-Israeli conflict, the American public has other sources of reality. All research says that young people everywhere regard Twitter as essentially a news service, and via your social network you can easily get served up words and pictures more impactful than anything on TV. By the time many Americans woke up on Sunday, these pictures were of dead Palestinian children." - Sean McBride
"Netanyahu complained the Hamas strategy was to provide “telegenically dead” people: but where Israel is losing the hearts and minds of the world is not via “tele” anything: it is in the JPEGs that stream into millions of people’s mobile phones every time they glance at the object in the palm of their hand." - Sean McBride
Twitter has proven its worth as a tool for the masses imo---the msm is in for a run for their money---in their disinfo and propaganda for Isr. One of the most illuminating things is how it reveals the crudeness and hatred of the Isr crowd in their tweets . 90% of them are on the level of psychopathic teenagers. - American
Sean McBride
GarethPorter: Senate 100-0 vote parroting Israeli view on Gaza shd be wake-up call: US Congress is controlled by a foreign power. http://thehill.com/blogs... https://twitter.com/GarethP...
You go Gareth. - ChasMark
PS Sean & Danaa, re your comments elsewhere regarding the money disadvantage we the unwashed enjoy -- Gareth Porter's book, "Manufactured Crisis," was written & published through a Kickstart program initiated by Helena Cobban. Cobban started her own publishing company & has published & marketed Miko Peled, Chas Freeman, & a book about life & cuisine in Gaza, among other titles. https://www.youtube.com/watch... - ChasMark
good that Porter is making it about subservience to a foreign power. Let people know how dark reality is. - Chu_
ChasMark, my complete respects to Helena Cobban. May she live long and prosper, and the books she is helping publish are a breath of fresh air (Plus I may need her help in the not too distant future for just that purpose). I know there are ways to raise money for specific projects and purposes. But that's not what I was decrying. It's that we, on the left side of the I/P issues (using... more... - Danaa
Go Porter! more such Twits and i might actually get me a little account.... - Danaa
Twitter lets you scan the best summary thoughts of the best minds on any topic in just a few minutes. I've been hooked for quite some time now -- I love the efficiency. - Sean McBride
ChasMark -- thanks for that background info on the Porter book -- enlightening indeed. This is the way forward in challenging the establishment -- by exploiting the Internet by every possible means. If you think about it, it's a form of guerrilla and asymmetric warfare in the information realm. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
This group will soon have to go permanently private thanks to the efforts of pepsi and JustTheFactsPlease to harass, vandalize and disrupt it.
That will seriously damage and cripple the group since only the current 419 subscribers will be able to read or contribute to it. - Sean McBride
It is difficult to understand why pepsi and JustTheFactsPlease continue to engage in this antisocial and malicious behavior -- I have never seen anything like it in my experience on the Internet. Why aren't they focusing on developing their own group? - Sean McBride
Chu, American and others here -- see if you can persuade them to back off and leave the group alone. They are not welcome here. - Sean McBride
Because pepsi and JTFP are far from interested in developing their "own" ideas. They came here as agents provocateurs, taking on personas of neo-something-or-other, not as "debaters". These personas they've taken on has not worn thin and it's getting more difficult to milk it by sucking people into engagement. So they can now only resort to disruption - peppering the feed with unwanted... more... - Danaa
FF is unfortunately a fertile ground for this kind of operation because posters cannot be easily banned - that's the achhiles heel of the site. - Danaa
As for those 419 subscribers, the majority are probably in the business of selling something or vacuming up data for business purposes. The subset who actually post here is very small. - Danaa
When you wrote OT, Danaa I thought you meant Old Testament. - WJones
The paucity of people interested in posting continues to be a big puzzle. Even for those who are content to live within the posting restrictions on MW, I still can't believe they don't have more to say and/or are not desirous in engaging with other posters. I'm still of the opinion that in large part it's the interface. As much as it may work for say, Sean, or others, it just doesn't... more... - Danaa
WJ - you are funny - didn't catch my "pun" from yesterday? oh yes, it was probably gone when pepsi's comment was. I think it was something along the lines of "prefer to stick to OT so please keep off the OT". - Danaa
One of the things Sean has a hard time with is to see why humans who are not him may find this interface a bit off-putting. Just as they do Twitter. I do wish there was a way to develop the interface at least presentation wise, perhaps with some option keys. Plus adding the ability to ban specific posters while keeping the group public is an absolute must, IMO. No way can a topic as... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- I am using Mondoweiss (the blog platform) and Friendfeed in parallel -- and for me, FF blows away MW (and all blog platforms) as a communications tool. I guess our brains are wired differently in a fundamental way -- not in a better or worse way -- just in different ways. - Sean McBride
I think many people who take an initial glance at Friendfeed never manage or bother to figure out its more advanced features. It is truly a power tool for social communications. It's a many-to-many communications model -- omnidirectional -- not one-to-many. Blogs are basically old school media platforms. - Sean McBride
Apparently those marketers you mentioned haven't discovered GFTG -- it has 13 subscribers. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- regarding Twitter -- you've probably noticed quite a few tweets turning up in this group -- some of them quite valuable, from high-quality sources. Smart people do in fact use Twitter. - Sean McBride
Note to Sean about marketers - they had over 250 subscribers, almost right of the bat. many the same as in this feed, very few commenting (just the ones we know). Then they went private and now that they emerge it's only 13. I have been following the trends, and I don't think it's accidental. - Danaa
Point about twitter - it's not about "smarts" - many use twitter if they are in the public eye because they have to - it's become a short-cut megaphone. I don't follow anyone and have no intention to. Too much clutter. - Danaa
Again, your comments reflect what you WANT to see from people, not what there is. Fact is, WJones invited people to this feed numerous times as have you. If they came and looked they were obviously not enticed to comment, for whatever reason. I am suggesting the interface, at first glance is not what lots of humans - those used to comment that is - find attractive. The whys are of... more... - Danaa
I happen to think FF can make a good mirror site - a Meta agency where a main blog AND the commenters on it can be discussed. Fact is, people continue to post on MW despite the drawbacks, the moderation, the time lag etc. I can only conclude that those who do comment there, have reasons and one of the reasons is to have their comments be seen by the largest possible number of people.... more... - Danaa
Another point - now that pepsi has deigned to actually interject with something "On-topic" though not exactly in depth: yes, there is a likelihood that the people MW appeals to are primarily jewish. That's how it is. They prefer to discuss things in a relatively 'safe" and sanctioned - Jewish anti-zionist site, whicvh, while radical, does not run the danger of inflammatory comments from... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- Twitter search cuts through the clutter -- it automatically pushes the most influential (and usually the most valuable) tweets to the top. Ditto for Topsy. There is no faster or more efficient way to skim off the most important new stories and articles in most fields. That is why thought and opinion leaders use it heavily. - Sean McBride
My guess is that FF's format is fine, and that doesnt deter them to the extent Danaa says, although yes it could be better. The issue is more likely that they just want to comment directly on MW rather than on a third party site. Thats what put me off for a long time- FF just seemed extra, and posting on MW was all I needed. The thing that pushed me over was more that i wanted a more... more... - WJones
The main point to focus on here is that all individuals should be proactive in using all available Internet tools to build communications networks with whatever combinations of people they like and which will advance their aims. Don't be passive. - Sean McBride
the #1 drive for most humans is laziness. I would never underestimate the significance of that factor. After all, passivity is what the PTB exploit day in, day out. - Danaa
Well, the lazy folks will never lead the parade --they will just fall in behind and be led. - Sean McBride
WJones
Keith and Chomsky.
“Do you think it’s is a good idea to push the idea of divestment from Israel…?” Chomsky replied: “I regard the United States as the primary guilty party here, for the past 30 years" - WJones
AMERICAN- “Chomsky is the only one I am familiar with that dishonestly promotes it as “strictly” the US’s fault.” KEITH: "Chomsky says no such thing, yet you and other Mondoweiss commenters continue to misrepresent him at every opportunity." - WJones
No matter WJ. Let it go - - Chomsky is not that important.... - Danaa
Danaa -- a rare disagreement: - Sean McBride
Since Noam Chomsky has encouraged disciples like Norman Finkelstein, Hostage, Keith and Dan Crowther to deflect attention from the preeminent role of the Israel lobby (and the Jewish lobby within the Israel lobby) in hijacking American Mideast policy since the 1940s, perhaps it is a matter of some importance to thoroughly refute Chomsky and Chomskyites on this issue. - Sean McBride
Liberal and progressive Zionists like Dennis Ross and Noam Chomsky have basically been protecting the Israel lobby from scrutiny and effective challenge, and, as a result, they have been helping to enable the ongoing status quo with regard to Israeli (and Likud) domination of the American political system. - Sean McBride
One has no doubt that Dennis Ross and Aaron David Miller have been engaging in witting and deliberate deception with regard to their supposed commitment to the peace process, the two-state solution and liberal values. Noam Chomsky may have been playing the same game all along -- although from a more hard left position. Chomsky makes no sense on the issue of Zionist power in American... more... - Sean McBride
There are dozens of reputable historians and political scientists who are more reliable on the history of Zionism, Israel and American Mideast policy than Noam Chomsky -- their agenda rises above the level of narrow tribalism. Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer are two good examples. They deal in empirical facts -- Chomsky deals in vague and unsupported generalities -- grand theories (recycled Marxism) about how the world allegedly works. - Sean McBride
Marxism is fine as a grand theory. However Chomsky should know better about things he says about IP (like whether the lobby is small or not) whether one accepts Marxism or not. - WJones
For what it's worth, he plays a lead role in N. Finkelstein's thinking as his stated main mentor. N.F.'s rant about BDS as a cult made a major disruption in Solidarity circles. - WJones
Were it not for Chomsky, maybe NF would not have been as dedicated to IP, so Chomsky played a good role in that. But alternately, Chomsky played a negative role in affecting NF's views on BDS, the ROR. - WJones
There is a by now well-established pattern of Jewish critics of Israel from the left engaging in shifty maneuvers that aid and abet the Israeli and Zionist right -- often through evasive and obfuscatory rhetoric and word games. The term "liberal Zionists" (which is an oxymoron justly inviting ridicule) nicely describes these folks collectively. - Sean McBride
# set; anti-Noam Chomsky * 1. articles 2. authors 3. books 4. publications 5. quotes 6. videos 7. websites - Sean McBride
^ Fill in the blanks. - Sean McBride
WEIRDNESS ABOUT CHOMSKY ON THE SERBIA CONFLICT: ((Chomsky strikes a pose of criticizing Western leaders for (supposedly) giving the Albanian secessionists insufficient support when they were (supposedly) nonviolent and (supposedly) inciting Serbian fanaticism with reckless bombing. So he is supporting NATO's line to a T, while posturing as the bitter critic of NATO. )) SEE: http://tenc.net/yr/chomsky.htm - WJones
((I had two email exchanges with Chomsky concerning Milosevic and the Serbs. The first was during the 1999 NATO bombing. I wrote asking Chomsky to speak at one of the weekly anti-war rallies I was helping organize in Boston... Chomsky replied that he was booked-up for the indeterminate future. )) QUOTE FROM ABOVE. Also: 'NATO is wrong to be bombing those Serbian monsters.' ~Chomsky. - WJones
Corbett Report: "Chomsky, Academic Gatekeeper": https://www.youtube.com/watch... This is very in depth. His book Manufactured Consent says that propaganda is essential to Democracy. - WJones
I have my reasons for turning away from Chomsky as lynchpin for gatekeepers. The reasons all have to do with tactics. I just happen to think that taking Chomsky on directly will not pay dividends. It can and has become a distraction from the larger goals of BDS as an all-inclusive grass-roots movement. People spend enormous amounts of passion and brain-power on Chomsky, energy that... more... - Danaa
As for barely perceptible contempt, I noticed that hearing the word Palestinians' "Return" causes the same reaction in Chomsky as the word "Palestinians" does in some hard core nationalists. - WJones
Chomsky is a sharp writer and perceptive propaganda exposers. Yet all his sharpness and smarts did not save him from falling victim to one of the oldest propaganda rackets in the world - that of the "chosen people". Deep at heart many of the best and brightest believe it and sometimes can't help but let on to that belief. certainly Chomsky does when he holds on to the myth of a "Jewish... more... - Danaa
To be fair, Chomsky did not openly advocate for a nationalist state, but for a divided, bi-nationalistic anarchist society there that I would consider prone to inequality and "formally equal" segregation. - WJones
I agree w Danaa. A pure Jewish state (excessively violent) in the Arab world ain't gonna work. Or survive. Imagine a violent ethnic group taking over Oklahoma. Think of how the neighboring states would respond. It's poisonous. - Chu_ from Android
This is now my inner Marc Ellis speaking - the other kind of prophet, the one from the latter day Spinoza school. I said in the other thread how much I despised tmost of the OT. But that's only one side of the story. The other side is that one needs to know one's OT to know the enemy - in fact it's all there. It was there when god through Shmuel recommended that the jews stay away from... more... - Danaa
And that's where Chomsky walks in - he can't see just how awful the seed of evil is in Israel. he believes that there is, somewhere, a "better" israel, one with "better" jewish and perhaps universal values. But in that he is being like the august follower of the corrupt rabbis and temple priests of old. he fails to see that he is still caught up in worshipping a golden calf, made of smarts (Ignoring the fly in the ointment, which is the gold in this case). - Danaa
I am not sure I am making myself clear, especially not with regard to a very cofflicted attitude towards the OT. Right now, having denigraded it and all the prophets within it, I wouldn't mind at all if I could get Chomsky to re-read the story of Joshua - in the original, without the ornamentation and the gentility imparted by latter day translators. The story of joshua, in all its... more... - Danaa
I think Gilad Atzmon will understand (well, I know he does....) - Danaa
# set; Noam Chomsky * on AIPAC 1. articles 2. books 3. paragraphs 4. quotes 5. remarks 6. sentences - Sean McBride
You won't be able to turn up much -- I know -- I've tried. Those are close to empty sets. - Sean McBride
# topics that Noam Chomsky would prefer not to discuss 1. ADL 2. AIPAC 3. AJC 4. Birthright Israel 5. Chabad-Luvavitch 6. Commentary 7. Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations 8. David Project 9. Haim Saban 10. Israel Project 11. JINSA 12. MEMRI 13. neoconservatives 14. NJDC 15. PNAC 16. RJC 17. Sheldon Adelson 18. Stand With Us 19. WJC 20. ZOA - Sean McBride
When Noam Chomsky blames the United States for Israel's behavior, one wonders if what if he really has in mind is the Big Goy in Washington. The usual us vs. them biblical meme -- the chosen people vs. the nations. - Sean McBride
The primary guilty party in law is called the "principle". The party helping and supporting him is called the accomplice. The US is not the "primary guilty party. - WJones
principle > principal - Sean McBride
Thread closed. Too bad. I was having a nice talk with keith. - WJones
Keith opened up again. He is a bit unreasonable because he cant understand why someone on an IP blog would criticize Chomsky more than Chas Freeman, when they have two quite different backgrounds and circumstances: http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - WJones
I saw that -- what I was thinking was that Chas Freeman and Stephen Walt are much better informed on IP issues than Noam Chomsky. - Sean McBride
I often don't bother engaging in debates on MW these days because the turnarounds on comments are much too slow. Not worth the effort. I like thoughts to move fast, while they are hot. - Sean McBride
TEAR-STAINED UZI: “it’s frustrating that he provides cover now for PEPs.” KEITH: Curious, how expressing an honest opinion on certain aspects of BDS can be considered as providing cover for PEPs. link to mondoweiss.net Hello, Keith. In his interview with Frank Barat (Part 4/4), Chomsky said “It’s 100 times times worse in the US, or in England, or anyplace else you talk about” and... more... - WJones
WJ -- you have made strong comments in this discussion on MW -- and easily won the debate from my perspective. - Sean McBride
Yeah well the other side of the debate is pretty weak- trying to say the Chomsky supports BDS, doesn't downplay the Lobby, and is consistent about calling it Apartheid. - WJones
The Chomskyites have major blind spots on certain issues. When you probe them, their minds shut down. They are trying to protect their grand theory of how the world works -- the discussion quickly becomes mired down in their emotional and ego issues. - Sean McBride
Jones. Here's a chomsky thread on JSF.http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2014... - Chu_ from Android
Chomsky is not really a Marxist as it might appear to you, Sean. The Marxist position and ideal would be to put religious divisions in the past. That's why the "Orthodox" Marxists didn't demand an Israeli state. Chomsky on the other hand followed the nationalistic socialist trend, like Martin Buber, which divided society on the basis of religion. At first glance I can understand that... more... - WJones
I didn't say Chomsky was a Marxist -- I said he was recycling some elements of Marxism -- and that his style of thinking is quite Marxist -- fairly ideological and rigid. There are of course important differences among various schools of Marxism and their offshoots. - Sean McBride
Both Marx and Chomsky have important insights about the operations of power elites. - Sean McBride
There was a division between Marx and Bakunin over Marxism vs. Anarchism. As I understand it, Chomsky follows the ideological branch of anarchism, although in practice he is what the Marxists called an "opportunist", which means someone who is fine with accommodating to the system. This is reflected in how he demands Palestinians glue themselves to the 2SS even when Chomsky claims he wants a binational state. That is what the Marxists labeled "opportunism." - WJones
Chomsky is systemic in his thinking and structured. But is he really ideological and rigid? I doubt it, but don't rule it out. It seems that he is able to rethink ideas, like how he said in the past ten years that he would be fine with immigrating, but later said that the state has changed so much that he wouldn't. I find that his thinking on Apartheid is actually contradictory rather... more... - WJones
Sean McBride
Some of the hate-filled posts one sees directed towards Jews on the Internet make it obvious why Israel feels the need to keep Mossad, Sayeret Matkal, Unit 8200 and similar organizations in tip-top shape.
It is incredibly weird to be viciously attacked in a personal way as a Jew when I am not even Jewish -- but I am grateful for the insights those attacks have provided. That kind of behavior merits a crushing response. If I were Jewish, I would be justifiably inflamed. - Sean McBride
I am not Jewish, and I feel an itch to unleash the pitbulls. - Sean McBride
Sean, the purpose of those comments that you react to is to get you to react. I strongly doubt there's anything behind them, other than a desire to provoke which would then escalate. I think it's high time to see provocations for what they are - make believe statements designed to get a gut reaction. If you keep responding I'll begin to believe that the handle pepsi may be better than I gave him credit for. - Danaa
pepsi et al use some of the oldest tricks in the book. He has yet to find my buttons but he keeps trying all the wrong ones. - Danaa
Notice that I said I felt an itch -- but I haven't gone for the bait -- just a little twitch in that direction. The best way to handle people like this is to bottle them up and store them in the basement, far out of sight. Black sites -- metaphorically speaking, of course. - Sean McBride
By contrast, I, from a more jewish background dismiss all these comments you react to like annoying little flies. I see no substance in them and the intent strikes me as false. may be one needs to be one to know when some "attacks' are for real. Bottling up in the basement is the way to go. save for a rainy day. OTOH, I don't have to expand efforts to delete annoying comments. If I did I would probably be annoyed too - at the waste of time, if not the content (which is not there, more often than not). - Danaa
You get it -- I hate wasting my time on trash. There are better ways to spend it. - Sean McBride
WJones
Taking on Sean's argument with Mooser.
Hello, Mooser. It's fun reading your writing because of your sense of humor. Sometimes Sean talked with you about the overlapping of Judaism and state nationalism. And in fact since you are such a fun conversant, I would like to invite you to my friendfeed group. To address your topic directly, there are two issues: <b>First,</b> what do the religion's teachings say about the nationalism? Secondly, what does the religious community say? <b>To answer the first part: the religious writings take the view that the Messiah would establish an autocratic theocracy. However, since the writings were "prophecies", they can be seen as metaphors, and one need not see it in terms of the kind of political system they had in 1000 B.C.</b> Don't forget that God did not prefer for Israel to have a king in the first place. That implies that God's perfect king might not be the kind of king people normally think of it. So the Christians can be right about that. Yet Jewish tradition did involve a focus on... more... - WJones
My conclusion is this: Deep inside Judaism, you can find that it does not really teach autocracy, and my impression is that it does not really teach nationalist rule either. Christianity's interpretation is that No, Judaism's real meaning was not to teach either one. - WJones
The problem for Mooser;s argument: and maybe you can bring it up with him or others when you get into it again, is not that Judaism's real meaning is nationalist or not, but that the scholars of modern Judaism have rarely taken on this huge question that must be central to them, especially in light of all the tragedies happening in Palestine. - WJones
If Mooser is going to demand that Judaism is not nationalistic, then he has to make a coherent argument about Judaism's real meaning and all its prophetic references to nationalist rule. - WJones
I don't oppose Christian proslyetizing towards Jews, but in reality those conversations rarely go anywhere. The problem is that both ideologies are faith-based, ungrounded in reason, science, facts or the real world, and are *both* almost certainly wrong. I tend to leave religious Jews and Christians alone, unless they start engaging in political activism with a religious agenda -- let them believe whatever they like. - Sean McBride
No, Sean. I am not talking about Christians proselytizing Jews. I am taking on the argument you are making. You are talking about Judaism being nationalist. Mooser is fighting you on that. My response in my head is that if he is going to fight you on it, he has to tell you how you are supposed to feel about the hundreds of references in the Bible to Israel's national rule. Yes,... more... - WJones
The main point, for me, is that the worldwide Jewish religious establishment in the contemporary era has fully merged Judaism with Zionism into a single messianic ethno-religious nationalist ideology -- that is a fact, and a fateful one. Jewish opponents of Zionism will need to take on and deconstruct the contemporary expression and definition of Judaism if they are going to get anywhere. - Sean McBride
WJ -- ok -- I understand your point now. It's a good one. In our past exchanges on this topic, Mooser made no effort at all to address the core issues, ideas and texts -- his response was completely emotional and content-free. - Sean McBride
Just tell him what I said when you get into it next. You can point to my post on MW about it. - WJones
I doubt that he could follow your argument -- he is not actually a thinker -- more a standup comedian. - Sean McBride
You can tell him that he can't just say no, he has to point to a real explanation of the prophecies about nationalism. - WJones
This is retarded. he is such a standup comedian that he cannot think through what he said? - WJones
If it requires reading of any kind, he won't bother. He is the anti-Hostage when it comes to the handling and processing of texts. - Sean McBride
OK - WJones
Mooser cant explain Judaism as non-nationalist, and Hostage can't explain Chomsky as pro-BDS. Personally I think Mooser has a better chance to be right. - WJones
You, Danaa and I love texts and close textual readings -- not a common taste, apparently. - Sean McBride
Sean, WJ - I think Mooser is the kind of jewish person who owes little allegiance to the OT, where all the nationalist/messianic rubbish comes from. I half suspect he might share my disdain for much of what's in that text. In many ways, the Talmudic tradition took a step (or attempted to) to take jewish faith and traditions and laws beyond the narrow nationalist prism and more into the... more... - Danaa
((. The American jewish tradition, as expressed through conservative and reform movements, took it another step and came up with a more universalist interpretation of Judaism, one that's anchored in culture, custom and folksiness, while ditching much that was faith-based.)) OK, this is a big problem. How do you define Judaism. If you call it just Reform Judaism and equate it with what... more... - WJones
If Mooser's definition is that Judaism is just whatever people think at a given moment in history, then Yes, it's hugely nationalistic and overbearingly so. If you want to say it's a real religion with special writings, then you can go deeper and find the true meaning instead. - WJones
Danaa -- I think you just captured Mooser to a T -- that's my read, - Sean McBride
I understood very well Mooser's annoyance with having to argue the "essentialism" question. That stuff was not essential for him - he may have ditched it ages ago, and perhaps sees little reason he should carry on about it, when it's not his excess baggage. I might feel a tad annoyed too had I found myself somehow trapped into debating the talmud, and whether it full of hatred and/or... more... - Danaa
Comment section about Hostage closed 1 day early, just before I had a chance to post my response to Leander. - WJones
<blockquote>I had problems with W.Jones fast conclusions around the same time.</blockquote> I am more than happy to discuss anything about it with you, and am perfectly happy to reconsider my opinions. <blockquote> Like Hostage, and no I had no time to look into this carefully, but I trust him, I am pretty sure had I looked into it I probably would have supported him against the... more... - WJones
Leander is almost always behind the curve on fast-breaking trends among thought leaders -- she pulls up the rear, waiting for the new conventional wisdom to solidify. Then she ardently embraces the new beliefs -- which of course then change beneath her feet. - Sean McBride
Note for Sean - the way I read Mooser, the more right i am the more annoyed he would be with me for waxing poetic about his attributes. What right do I have to interpret him or anyone else, based on slivers of knowledge skimmed off internet postings that are mostly political rather than personal in nature? but there's the [essential] difference between someone like Mooser and someone... more... - Danaa
On some level one would expect Mooser to enjoy being given lavish personal attention -- he is quite self-involved and self-referential -- but perhaps not critical attention -- or less than laudatory attention. In any case, he is witty and usually likable and doesn't pretend to be a thinker in any serious sense. That's fine. Engaging him in "intellectual" debate is like picking the wings off a butterfly -- not something one really wants to do, even when he invites arguments about Judaism and Zionism. - Sean McBride
"picking wings off a butterfly" apropo but oh-oh! I love butterfles! may they flutter long and near-by! - Danaa
I just made a pretty good and thought out comment to Mooser on this topic: http://mondoweiss.net/2014... (cited at the start of the FF post) - WJones
Mooser still has a day to reply. - WJones
So far nothing. - WJones
Is being a provoker the only way to get him to respond? - WJones
Mooser will reply when he feels like it. I don't know if you noticed but he prefers to be in the "driver's seat". He makes the points, others respond. I kind of doubt you'll succeed in "provoking" him, if he doesn't feel like being provoked. Just some more psychologizing on my part. - Danaa
Sean McBride
Israel's game is to see how much state terrorism applied against civilians, women and children it can get away with, in plain view of the entire world, without triggering a forceful international response and intervention -- to walk right up to that line.
This has been the Zionist game plan since before the official establishment of Israel -- to keep driving the non-Jewish natives out of Jewish Greater Israel by making their lives unbearable. - Sean McBride
This I agree with. israel is testing the world - how much can it tolerate? so far, it's quite a bit, if Gaza is the test case. But where is the limit when the dead are Arab? where is the limit when the dead are Ukrainian? - Danaa
what israel wants is a "Final Solution" for gaza. It would have already implemented one, had it known it could get away with it. The only question for the average israeli is "when" not "what". The "what" is settled in the majority of Israeli minds. - Danaa
Some pro-Israel activists invoke Hiroshima and Nagasaki as precedents for how to deal with their Palestinian, Arab and Muslim problems -- so I think we have some idea of how far Israel intends to push the boundaries here regarding major war crimes. - Sean McBride
That's why I bring up Joshua of the OT. I don't think even WJ, the good guy, has processed what it means to be brought up on that narrative, accept it without a question and not once wonder - or be encouraged to wonder, as a child or adult - why was that OK to do? destroy all of Jericho, leaving not a living thing standing. A craven disgusting massacre, but what does it mean to exalt the very thing that modern sensibility would have us turn away from in utter disgust? - Danaa
Sean, as I keep pointing out, hebrew is a great barrier. What is said in hebrew, on israel's streets, and/or by some of the "nicest" grandmothers you'll ever get to know, would chill your blood to the bone. - Danaa
Israel has a second Nakba in mind for the remaining Palestinians in Greater Israel -- you can bank on it. It's all about tempo and patiently setting the stage. - Sean McBride
For israel, the strategy is clear - come up with a way of "dealing" with the palestinians of gaza, but do it without getting the whole world turn on you. That's the plan and has been for some time. Current gaza "operations" are a test case. They are probably counting "bodies" as we speak. - Danaa
With regard to gaza, israel's plan always had egypt in mind. The idea being to just kick the palestinians over to the Egyptian side. So far, they have managed to install Sisi as a collaborator, but even Sisi cannot stomach the israeli plan. I wonder what the next step is for "motivating" the Egyptians. - Danaa
Danaa -- many of the English comments that one reads in the Israeli press are already bloodcurdling and bone-chilling -- we are talking about many thousands of comments expressing extreme hate speech and genocidal fanaticism. - Sean McBride
The Israel lobby has succeeded in dehumanizing and demonizing Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims to such a degree in American popular culture that Israel now has a free hand to slaughter civilians, women and children at will. Many Americans are cheering on these crimes. - Sean McBride
The situation in Ukraine is wacko. You have a population of Ukrainians that could hardly care less about IP, and yet the ruling businessmen and politicians are strong pro-Israelis. Meanwhile weird political actions happened like the shooting in Kiev in February and now the weird airplane crash in the east. Ordinary Ukrainians have no idea what the deal is that their new government... more... - WJones
Utoya was another completely wacko event. It makes no sense, and there were reports that it was not a "lone gunman" either. - WJones
The heavy hand of the neocons is behind events in both Ukraine and Gaza. They are playing on the grand chessboard and utilizing their global network of assets. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Nobel peace laureates and celebrities call for military embargo on Israel | BDSmovement.net - http://www.bdsmovement.net/2014...
Signed by: - Sean McBride
1. Adolfo Peres Esquivel, Nobel Peace Laureate, Argentina 2. Ahdaf Soueif , Author, Egypt/UK 3. Ahmed Abbas, Academic, France 4. Aki Olavi Kaurismäki , film director, Finland 5. Alexi Sayle, Comedian, UK 6. Alice Walker, Writer, US 7. Alison Phipps, Academic, Scotland 8. Andrew Ross, Academic, US 9. Andrew Smith, Academic, Scotland 10. Arch. Desmond Tutu, Nobel Peace Laureate, South... more... - Sean McBride
Also look at the petition supported and avertised by Richard Silverstein. - Danaa
I am not sure - could be the same one. - Danaa
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
This latest invasion of Gaza is less about genocide, contra Ilan Pappe, though his points, as always, are well taken. Rather, the point of Israel’s invasion – like its continuing actions in the West Bank under Gaza’s cover – is to finalize what most of the world, including the Arab world, really wants. What the world wants is a policy that contains Palestinians and leaves the Middle East order, at least what’s left of it, in place. If the policy of containment should be called genocide, so be it, but politically the strategy is a policy of managing a collective. Terminology like this might seem harsh. It is.
That is bull shit. The world has no interest in or benefit to be gained in 'containing the Palestines". Containing the Palestines who have zero powerto threaten anyone benefits no one but Israel. If the world.particulary the Arab sunni world is interested in containing anything is the ISIS offshoot of AQL. Trying to contain the Palestine does nothing but make them good potential recruits for ISIA the longer they are occupied. - American
Israel's policies from the outset have been obvious: to clear the territory of Greater Israel of Palestinians by making their lives as painful as possible through a wide variety of methods, including terrorism. This story is not nearly over. - Sean McBride
Mark Ellis is pretty irrelevant. I gets aromas of Tom Freedman when I read his articles. - Chu_
Ellis was a member of the Catholic Workers Movement in 1974-1975. Ellis was probably a fan of Saul Alinskys 'Rules for Radicals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Chu_
The catholic worker movement is pretty cool. Marc Ellis is relevant. But he is a REC (Rational Except about Christianity). - WJones
"Contra Christian doctrine, there’s no way back from death." ~Ellis in his latest article. - WJones
Marc Ellis has a major stumbling block when it comes to thinking rationally about Christianity. - WJones
This latest comment by him is not even rational. - WJones
Judaism teaches resurrection, just as Christianity does. To suddenly complain about "Contra Christian Doctrine" on this subject from his perspective is not even rational. It is like complaining that Judaism believes in monotheism. That's not rational to complain about if you are a monotheist. - WJones
Check out Libras comment to Ellis today. She's pretty funny. - Chu_ from Android
Do you understand that this is not rational from his perspective: "Contra Christian doctrine, there’s no way back from death." That is like a Unitarian complaining that Islam is monotheist. We are past unreasonableness and into the realm of the illogical. - WJones
Jones, Ellis is useless, an open book of Christian predjudice. I don't know why you get so concerned about an intellectual troll who uses Saul Alinsky as a guide to permeate whatever Christian beliefs he seems to hold. Please don't see the forest for the trees here. Remember Christianity is a world religion. University of Peace in San Juan, Costa Rica? have you ever been to San Juan? Good guanabana and plantains. - Chu_
buy the book 'Controversy of Zion'. You'll appreciate it. Let me know what you think. Danaa even would like it. - Chu_
Usually in the comments section I dont rant about Ellis. I just point out unreasonableness. Ellis doesnt usually write offensive things about IP. Mostly he writes insinuations when he does, like about Greta Berlin being antisemitic, even though he later called Atzmon a prophet. He is not all rational or consistent. - WJones
Ellis has value. He does not have intense "groupies" like Chomsky doesn't. Ellis is more AZ than Chomsky, who is Z and partly even PEP. Chomsky doesnt care about putting down Christianity, though. - WJones
he takes cheap shots. without taking responsibilities (or blaming Jews after Christians). - Chu_
((Saul Alinsky as a guide to permeate whatever Christian beliefs he seems to hold. Please don't see the forest for the trees here. Remember Christianity is a world religion. University of Peace in San Juan, Costa Rica? have you ever been to San Juan?)) Ellis is cool when it comes to his left wing views. It's his antichristianity that's the problem. His PEPism is minimal if anything, I believe. - WJones
Chomsky is supremely intelligent if were comparing Chomsky to Ellis - Chu_
Jones, give me an idea where you live? NE NW SE SW? - Chu_
Intelligence is not the main thing. Daniel Pipes is very smart. Herzl was a visionary - in his own way. I don't knock their mental skills. It's more that they are biased. - WJones
oh. Don't underestimate Jewish Zionism. People cringe at criticizing their ideology in NYC. It's almost chilling. - Chu_
Ok. softball. Bill DeBlasio - Chu_
But intelligence doesn't indicate reciprocity & respect with the indefinite ally. - Chu_
The main context we are dealing in is IP, and I think that on IP, Ellis is much better than Chomsky. Ellis does not go on about how BDS is antisemitic and there is no Apartheid, etc. Ellis has criticized Michael Lerner for attacking Solidarity activists, and he even called Atzmon a prophet. So for purposes of MW, Yes, Ellis is better. But Ellis is neurotic and irrational about Christianity, and it's a major disability since IP is an interfaith conflict. - WJones
Stand back and think about it for a moment: can critics of the Israeli government and the Israel lobby really afford to splinter and disintegrate over these disagreements? Don't they need to set aside their differences on numerous issues and focus on the main goal? - Sean McBride
The Israel lobby has been highly successful in maintaining discipline among its ranks despite numerous internecine quarrels. It presents a united face to the world. - Sean McBride
I'm not arguing at all. I'm saying that Ellis should not be part of mondoweiss because he is a bigot and blames everyone else before he lays blame at zionism. They need a Chas Freeman instead of an Ellis. - Chu_ from Android
Certainly this is a tendency one sees among many liberal and progressive Zionists: to place the blame for Israeli policies on any and every group in the world except the Jewish establishment and the Jewish lobby. - Sean McBride
Notice the hysteria and anger that anti-Zionist Mooser expressed about any efforts to analyze the numerous important connections between Judaism and Zionism and between the Jewish religious establishment and the Israel lobby. He lost it completely -- and he is still off-balance and fuming about that subject. - Sean McBride
I was hesitant to put up a comment on Marc Ellis thread, so here it is instead - I saw on israeli facebooks a recitation of a prayer before IDF soldiers were sent to "battle" (ie mow the grass, have a little killing spree). It was the kind of "prayers" that secular people use in Israel. The kind of prayer that was said perhaps before Joshua committed one of the best documented... more... - Danaa
Beautifully written, as usual -- and deeply insightful. I have been thinking about systematically cataloging all the genocidal passages in the Old Testament. Joshua may in fact be the most important meme in the book. - Sean McBride
At its core, the jewish god is a mirror into the evil that lurks in the hearts of men. The more the Christians make common cause with them the more they'll be dragged into the Abyss. Worse part of it is that people like Ellis, an "interfaith" person, knows this. He knows how horrid the OT is - a non-stop tale of murderous deeds by a people who invented a god that justifies anything they... more... - Danaa
In semantic webese: [set; genocidal * in the Old Testament 1. events 2. passages 3. topics] - Sean McBride
Sean, now there is a project I wouldn't mind giving a hand to. TI would expect we would not be the first to try and do this "documentation" - will make life easier. Must google me some genocidal passages. I might even forgo analog for such a lofty purpose. - Danaa
"a non-stop tale of murderous deeds by a people who invented a god that justifies anything they do, as long as they remain "true" to him" - Sean McBride
Another column for you, Sean - add prophetic, to capture the well prophet of the day. - Danaa
Danaa -- you manage to compose many quotable remarks. Colorful, succint, on point. - Sean McBride
I have strongly leaned to the view for quite some time now that all religious symbols, myths and memes are the projection of innate human psychological archetypes. When various cultures talk about their versions of "God," they are really talking about themselves -- about their essential nature -- usually unconsciously, underwater. The Enlightenment was largely about "waking up" -- of becoming fully conscious and self-conscious of the forces driving human behavior. - Sean McBride
What I have noticed in my study of Western monotheism is that God is often used as a pretext for violent aggression against others -- wrapped up in a pretty feel-good package of charity, philanthropy and high-mindedness. It can be quite a racket. - Sean McBride
When various competing factions of Western monotheism go at one another, all in the name of their "God," one sees the underlying psychological mechanisms laid bare. - Sean McBride
((The latter is the excuse for the former. Christianity, IMO, made a mistake by adopting the entirety of the bible, as something to be superceded... He knows how horrid the OT is - a non-stop tale of murderous deeds by a people who invented a god that justifies anything they do, as long as they remain "true" to him. )) Religions develop over time, and Christianity is a later stage that... more... - WJones
WJ -- the problem with the OT is not the specific assertions and claims made in it -- the problem is with its predominating mindset and attitudes -- the psychological and cultural archetypes which pervade it. You would need to gut the OT of 95% of its content to bring it into alignment with Enlightenment concepts. Many ancient Greek and Roman texts are much more in natural sync with the Enlightenment than the OT. - Sean McBride
# a few of the problematic attitudes and memes in Western monotheism (and all of which originate in the Old Testament) 1. absolutism 2. appeals to divine authority 3. appeals to faith 4. censorship 5. cultural aggression 6. dogmatism 7. groupthink 8. hostility to science and reason 9. intolerance 10. messianism 11. military aggression 12. superstition 13. suppression of dissent 14. us vs. them 15. visions of world destruction 16. visions of world domination - Sean McBride
God in the Western monotheistic tradition is a license for mass murder, absolute social control and world domination by a self-appointed priesthood. - Sean McBride
My question to you WJ, is similar to Sean's - what exactly is worth preserving in the OT? may be the early parts of genesis and the book of Job (if it is condensed and chopped of about 70% of the repetitive stuff). All of the OT is basically an excuse for a people to believe they are somehow "chosen". take that out and what's left? like Sean says, a whole lot less than Greek and Roman mythologies. - Danaa
Another project. Great ideas - Chu_ from Android
The good parts of the OT: the expression of some poetic and novelistic talent -- but those passages represent only a small portion of the entire text. - Sean McBride
Pro-Israel militants are channeling the central spirit of the Old Testament -- reactivating and reenergizing its core psychological and cultural archetypes. They are the living embodiment of the OT. This is what the OT is all about. - Sean McBride
Also, WJ, faith is the crux of the matter, isn't it? i don't believe for a millisecond that some god gave Moses "Law". It was Moses - or some group of characters unified into the concept of "Moses" who may have come with the "law" themselves. Was it good law? some was, some wasn't. the useful and insightful part of the story of Exodus is the aspiration to morals by a people. The useless... more... - Danaa
have I perchance convinced you that I really really despise the OT (other than the first book, genesis, which showed strange understanding of how the natural world came to be). There was wisdom in genesis. I found less and less of it as the book went on. The best accomplishment of the gospels, IMO< is that they wrote them fairly short. Attention span, and all that. - Danaa
BTW, later on, when i got to read some of the Baga Bhagitha, i wasn't all that impressed with it either. Too much and the messages, such as they are, are drowned in amorass of details. Still, the stories were good. - Danaa
I laud you WJ, for bearing with us secular types. There really is a fundamental dividing line between the believers and those who don't. The latter simply don't have the respect for "prophets" or for sermons in general. We pronounce "god" with a small "g" - and frankly it makes little difference whether there is one god or 100. the non-believer will look through the OT and see some... more... - Danaa
As always, pepsi doesn't get the point, which is the OT, which i don't have any great respect for (and obviously little appreciation). Other points about other things can go to other places, no? - Danaa
FWIW, the talmud - what little of it I had to learn (if only to get a grade, and only for 2 years) was even more boring than the OT. Even the little fables were all but gone and there was hardly any sex. At least the OT doubled as porn, so there were some riveting parts. especially for a teenager. - Danaa
It's true, BTW, during those earlier puritanical days in Israel, when TV was not around and not so much literature was translated into Hebrew, the OT was our gateway porn manual. not that we ever got the details right. The allusions to incest were especially confounding. Weird stuff was going down in those days. - Danaa
I apologize for the new pepsi infestation -- he seems to have mental problems and still hasn't grasped that his hate-filled comments are not welcome here. A next-generation version of Friendfeed will deal with this kind of problem -- firmly blocking mentally deranged people. - Sean McBride
You have to automatically delete every comment by the known sockpuppets no matter what their comments are. - WJones
I actually read the Adin Steinsaltz translation of the Talmud -- by comparison, the Old Testament is a breath of fresh air. It is almost entirely devoid of literature and reveals a psychology that is begging for contemporary clinical analysis -- especially the obsessive-compulsive elements. It's not Dante, Chaucer or Shakespeare. - Sean McBride
Regarding the tradition of using the Talmud as a springboard for developing skills in argumentation and critical thinking -- that I appreciate. - Sean McBride
((I ruined the class for everybody by talking non-stop and demanding that we study also the Baga Bhagitta, while keping a copy of greek mythology on my desk and reading from it, when called upon to interpret one of those annoying jerks, who thought they were, like "prophets".)) Wow, so you basically got a bad grade, or was it extra-curricular and grades didn't matter? - WJones
Dear WJ, I hate to tell you that but I got an A+. I aced the matriculation tests on the OT (a requirement even for the Physical science direction) because, well, I had a near photographic memory. And as you well know by now, i can BS with the rest of them and interpret anything at all at a drop of a hat. I also aced the Talmud (no matriculation test for us, mercifully) for the same... more... - Danaa
No surprise there, Danaa :) -- that is what I envisioned. - Sean McBride
Sean, save me from pepsi! here we are talking OT and he is totally OT all the time. - Danaa
Danaa- I blocked him. Sean has to automatically delete pepsi's comments. - WJones
Maybe Israeli society was more tolerant of Israeli students in those days when many of them were liberal (PEP). Maybe Israeli society is becoming less tolerant nowadays. On the other hand you are not allowed to use physical discipline on Israeli kids, although they flog Palestinian kids (like the celebrity, Rula Jebreal) in prison leaving real, lifelong scars. - WJones
So maybe Israeli society lets Israeli kids act up like you did. It is kind of like Sid Fleischman's book "The Whipping Boy", where one prince due to noble birth cannot be touched, and another one takes floggings for him. - WJones
You are right about israeli society, WJ. Later, much later, I came to understand that the fact that my bad behavior was tolerated did me no favors. Also, since I absolutely abhored two of subjects we had to take on a daily basis, it gave me the excuse for developing atrocious study habits (all last minute, all the time). These did not stand me well later. As for the acting up part, you... more... - Danaa
Danaa, It's OK that you acted up in class, and it's admirable that the school was not particularly punitive. The fact that Israeli society bans spanking kids is extremely admirable and progressive. And yet we are dealing with a horrible dichotomy- a real life "Prince and the Pauper" or "Whipping Boy" situation, where one society has a thriving economy, its children have the best and... more... - WJones
There are people in America who grow up in northern schools that don't hurt children, and then they go to teach in schools in the South where they practice physical abuse with instruments invented during US slavery. I have a cousin who this applies to. I can't "make" her treat children with the same kindness with which she was treated, although God knows I want to. I can just tell her that she is wrong and explain why. - WJones
WJones
On one forum, a hardcore PEP nationalist talks about how the Israelis defeated huge odds in the 1948 war and that this is a "miracle." Do you have information showing that the Israelis were not really outgunned in the 1948 war as they claim? I know that they got many weapons from the Soviet bloc as part of an agreement with the latter. - WJones
The Israelis enjoyed overwhelming military superiority in that conflict -- that fact has been well-documented. - Sean McBride
The frequent use of the word "miracle" by pro-Israel activists (especially religious Zionists) is fascinating -- it reveals a messianic psychology in play -- and an innate tendency towards magical thinking. Grandiose, gushing, euphoric. God is manipulating the universe specially for them. - Sean McBride
You know that you will never be able to hold a rational conversation with people who organize their politics around "miracles" -- especially miracles allegedly staged by God on behalf of ethnic nationalist interests. - Sean McBride
((The Israelis enjoyed overwhelming military superiority in that conflict -- that fact has been well-documented. )) OK. can you please point to it? - WJones
[Wikipedia; 1948 Arab–Israeli War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...]. Search on "superiority." - Sean McBride
Not good enough: the source said that the Israelis had superiority over the Palestinians, but didn't say that they had it against the Arab armies. - WJones
I don't have the relevant documents at my fingertips, and don't have time to Google in depth on the subject, but I have seen many reputable sources make that claim. Another pointer: [Israel and the 1948 War http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/israel_...] I may come back to this topic later when I have had time to get my ducks in a row. - Sean McBride
Jones, I don't see Hostage since July 4th. What do you think? - Chu_
He said he was leaving. People were criticizing Chomsky's positions too much for him. - WJones
I am a little bit surprised. But looking back I would have had to basically let his points about Chomsky being right about almost everything about IP stand after disagreeing a small number of times with them, and only do minimal follow up. - WJones
Chomsky being seen as right is more important than critical thinking. - WJones
Chomsky makes the biggest Internet warriors fold like a table. Nice tag team with Shingo through. Hopefully he rethinks his positions since he's great to MW. I read Keith ' s blog this morning. If you search chomsky he says he's leaving MW (2010?) Because the herd had turned against chomsky. He uses the anology of moby dick. I used to think keith was decent but criticism of his god made... more... - Chu_ from Android
This is the problem with discussing IP. When you point out politely and in a friendly way disagreements with even friends who feel very strongly about it (eg. Slater), they can get surprisingly offended. - WJones
Jones. I think the problem with Zionism is that they can't coexist in the greater world. They've had so many opportunities to make the Peace, yet they choose thuggery over reality. - Chu_
These Chomskyites remind me much of Ayn Rand Objectivists -- very similar cult psychology and hero worship. They are amusing. They've got a party line and they don't deviate from it. They can't think for themselves. - Sean McBride
Funny, I just heard on RT's cross roads (a program I highly recommend) the israel hasbarist (speaking of course from NY and propped up against Gideon Levy and Mikko peled who did a great one-two punch) allude to Chomsky and Finkelstein as two leftist "icons" who are against BDS because it sets out to destroy the Israeli state. This is the second time in one week that I hear a hasbara person waving around Chomsky's name. Can't be a coincidence, can it be? - Danaa
((Mooser, One of the focuses of ancient Judaism was the history of God’s relationship with one nation. At that point in time, such a unique focus made sense – most other religions were polytheistic. As Hostage of blessed memory pointed out, Judaism also held within itself the seeds of universalism, and a vision that Abraham’s faith would cover many nations. At this point, since many... more... - WJones
here's a Tokyo comment: tokyobk says: July 15, 2014 at 8:41 pm “Also, when are liberal Zionists going to begin to reflect this new reality, and throw in the towel on their beloved two-state solution?” When they become convinced that Jews are safe in the world and in Israel (or whatever it eventually becomes) regardless of the demography. That may be an impossible task (because the fear... more... - Chu_
Keith comment (2010): THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 2010 MONDO-PEQUOD I booked passage on the good ship Mondoweiss, bound for Israel/Palestine. The journey was an interesting one until recently. The ship morphed into the Mondo-Pequod and veered off course in pursuit of an iconic whale named Moby-Chomsky. This great whale was depicted as a great impediment to our journey, hence, we must pursue... more... - Chu_
Real masters don't try to acquire disciples -- they help others unlock their own individual creative energy -- and they are allergic to authoritarian cults organized around alleged masters. - Sean McBride
Many people in this life can't get by without the crutch of a master and the emotional support of like-minded groupthink disciples. - Sean McBride
lastg comment from Hostage: 'Frankly this kind of article has convinced me to pull my subscription here and pick-up my remote.' - Chu_
Chu, where was that comment by Hostage? which article? sorry, but I tired of the Chmosky battles and stopped following the comments. I said my piece - twice, keith remained friend (well, you know, MW friend...), got pissed off about the threads closing too fast and moved on. - Danaa
Danaa. Search Hostage on MW. It's the very last sentence of his last comment. - Chu_
As you all know my feelings about Chomsky are not very strong - never worshipped him, so my heart was never broken by his high wire act when it comes to BDS. I was much more saddened by Norman Finkelstein - whom I view as a tragic figure - an individual who almost reached heroic dimensions (and looked the part) but could not scale that last little bit of the cliff. Too far to go and his... more... - Danaa
I think we all were enlightened by some of his insights concerning corrupted US foreign policy. But the man has a soft spot for Zionism -went to Jewish day camps in high school, worked on the kibbutz, etc. Obviously has some soft spot for Israel. But pointing that out to Chomskyites really gets them in a tizzy. It's too bad, because Keith and/or Hostage make some good points otherwise - Chu_
Beautiful description of Finkelstein, plus "to be a Spinoza, with all that this entails." - WJones
I wonder if Danaa knows that some people consider Spinoza to be one of the original creators of the Semantic Web -- and someone who was working to synthesize and unify "digital" and "analog" thinking. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Israel Paying Students (30 pieces of silver?) to be Apologists for Israel | American Everyman - http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014...
"College students are being paid to be online apologists for the barbaric inhuman policies of Israel and the IDF. The more lies they post about glorious Israel, the higher up the corporate-styled ladder they climb, looking to achieve the ultimate goal… a free ride in college… proving once again: it’s never too early to sell-out." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Students at each university are organized into units. At the top is the chief-coordinator, who gets a full scholarship. Under the chief-coordinator are three “desk coordinators” in charge of language, graphics and research who receive lesser scholarships. Then there are student “activists” who receive, “minimal scholarships”" - Sean McBride
"The program is run by Danny Seamen, an Israeli public diplomacy official who drew the ire of Muslims in the region when he posted the following status on his personal Facebook page: “Does the commencement of the fast of the Ramadan mean that Muslims will stop eating each other during the daytime?”" - Sean McBride
I used to read him. Thanks for the reminder. - Chu_ from Android
probably pat Nguyen is one of them. Total idiot. Followed by Mikhail, likely an American of Russian descent with ties to Israel (ie, been there, done that, got no [Israeli] girl to come back with me 'cause way too pale and not rich enough to make up for that) - Danaa
i think sumud called nguyen bluff recenly that he is asian. he's more like hophmi's dumber cousin. - Chu_
Glad you mention Mikhail, Danaa. At least he's direct, not like so many Wittys and LZs. Check out MJ's huff post article. LZ's look so desperate, but its a necessary hump to get to the root of it all. Max Ajl co authored a piece on how the left zionists are false. Sounds like they are drinking the Atzmon kool aid. About time. - Chu_
Danaa put some thought into the neocon tree please. Your insight is always valued. - Chu_
Chu, I will as soon as I get some time off for good behavior (ie, get project to closure). If you look at my comments there from earlier, I'm struggling a bit with you digital minded humanoids. My tendency is to first figure out what the purpose is of any exercise - is it to build a data base or is it to come up with visuals that can convey a point quickly, even to those otherwise... more... - Danaa
ok good. will discuss the details over there. - Chu_
American
I Support Pedophiles But I Love Children
MJ (Mike) Rosenberg@MJayRosenberg · Jul 11 - American
'' I am a liberal Zionist and pro-Israel to the core. And I hate this damn war by Israel against the innocent people of Gaza.'' - American
That's cute, American, and kind of relevant. Especially now with all that westminster Paedophile business going on t(that people think may be tied to hague's sudden resignation yesterday. Possibly a cover-up he was engaged in). the English sure seem to love children, don't they? - Danaa
I recommend listening to Keiser's last program on RT (if you get on TV that's good. But it's on the web site too). He was having a blast in with his cryptobullion one-two punch, into which heworked in the westminster gang at every chance. He is totally hilarious, agree or disagree with his love affair with all things crypto. - Danaa
American
Jewish Jet Blue Passenger Ousted Over Gaza Spat http://forward.com/article..
A Jewish woman was ejected from a JetBlue flight after arguing about the Israel-Hamas conflict with a Palestinian passenger. - American
The Jewish woman, physician Lisa Rosenberg of New York, was asked to leave the July 7 John F. Kennedy Airport-bound flight from Palm Beach International Airport not long after concluding a telephone conversation about Israel’s conduct in the conflict. Another passenger, who overheard the conversation, began arguing with Rosenberg. - American
But a commenter on the website Gothamist, who identified herself as the passenger who confronted Rosenberg, said that Rosenberg “was the only person yelling and actually said a Palestinian on the flight was a ‘danger to her’. She was removed from that flight for making a scene, refusing to sit in her seat and not complying with staff. Other passengers , if they come forward, will verify this.” - American
“The story presented in no way reflects the reports from our crew, whose decision to remove the customer we support,” the airline said in a statement. - American
oh vey!!!!..the jews are up in arms...sue Jet Blue, its a 100 million dollar law suit!....bankrupt jet Blue and ground it!..its anti semitism!...boycott jet Blue....the usual crap........http://www.vosizneias.com/171032... - American
'' “I just was completely outraged that I would be asked to leave a plane, being a Jew,” Rosenberg told ABC’s local affiliate in Palm Beach County." - American
Do you have a link to the story? preferably somewhere they allow comments? - Danaa
Google popped this up: [Jewish Doctor Bounced From JetBlue Flight Over Gaza Spat With Passenger http://forward.com/article...] - Sean McBride
Regarding Lisa Rosenberg: “I was saying how it was good Israel found the students that killed the Palestinian teenager and how it was exemplary not making them into heroes, but seeking to publicly try them,” Rosenberg told the Palm Beach Post. “I said any other country would have made these students out to be martyrs and celebrating them.” - Sean McBride
In what parallel universe would anyone treat these murderers as heroes and martyrs? Why is that concept even on the table? - Sean McBride
Every argument about Israel continues to erode support for Israel. Certainly JPPI should be able to figure that out. - Sean McBride
We do not spend much time arguing about Switzerland. Switzerland is not trying to build Greater Switzerland on the basis of an ancient religious imperative and on the backs of another people. Switzerland doesn't require a Switzerland Lobby in the United States, consisting of dozens of interlocked organizations that are increasingly in the public eye. Pro-Switzerland activists are not... more... - Sean McBride
Israel is not a normal nation -- this is not the situation that Theodor Herzl envisioned. - Sean McBride
I should mail Dr. Rosenberg my 'True Monkey Story' so she could diagnose what is wrong with herself and avoid needles, blood test , psychiatrists and all that. - American
Here's the account of the airline attendant. Quite a different reality from Dr. Rosenberg: http://flyingwithfish.boardingarea.com/2014... "The official internal report goes on to state that the flight attendant witnessed Dr. Rosenberg accuse the woman in 9C of being a “Palestinian murderer” and that “ her people are all... more... - Chu_
Sean McBride
Does anyone know? - Sean McBride
The conspiracy theorist in me says Pat Nguyen is a deliberate attempt to confuse from PHAN Nguyen, who writes data-rich articles for MW from time to time. http://mondoweiss.net/author... - ChasMark
That's a possibility. - Sean McBride
The Israeli government, the Israel lobby and independent pro-Israel activists are conducting extensive propaganda and psychological operations across the entire Internet -- much of it well-funded from government and private sources. - Sean McBride
I agree with Chasmark - it's a pen name meant to confuse - quite deliberately so. Of course, there's no comparison between the levels of writing between Phan Nguyen ( a real name,) and this "Pat Nuguyen". It's a poorly executed psyop that the readers on MW are too hardened to not notice. I wouldn't even bother to reply to this character, clearly a hired hand, unless I get paid for it. - Danaa
See Mikhael: http://mondoweiss.net/profile... Hasbara is on a roll. - Chu_
Pro-Israel propagandists have fallen into a trap -- the more they propagandize, often in an angry and confrontational way, the more they turn off most of the world. This is the way things usually go with ethnic and religious nationalist movements -- their sympathetic audience is highly circumscribed. They tend to push the emotional and ego buttons of cult outsiders in a negative way. - Sean McBride
I agree. Check out ZOA Mort Klein. http://www.tmz.com/2014... ZOA President Morton Klein tells TMZ Sports. "Anyone who uses the phrase 'Free Palestine' is either ignorant of the situation or hates the Jewish state of Israel. It's a hateful position." - Chu_
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Munayyer leads off in Nation responses to Chomsky on BDS - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
Yousef Munayyer says that BDS is an effective tool and the only way to counter US support for Jewish control of Palestinians' lives inside Palestine as the lead piece of five in The Nation addressing Noam Chomsky's criticism of BDS and dismissal of the right of return.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news... "the memo and the CIA’s past response to requests about records on Mr Chomsky suggest that the file has been destroyed." - WJones
No hide or hair of Hostage. - WJones
There are next to no comments on this article on Mondoweiss. Yet Chomsky's article brought over 100. - WJones
Re the lack of comments: isn't it interesting. IT kind of proves that there is something about Chomsky that brings out the troops in droves, and I'd like to suggest that it's as a simple as tribalism. One suspects that the majority of commenters on MW are, in fact, Jewish or Jewish-affiliated. They basically care a heck of a lot more about personalities and writers from among their own... more... - Danaa
Then watch the absence of comments for Munayer, obviously an Arabic person. It's like all the good jewish commenters decided to turn in for the night. As in - of course he supports BDS - so what's there to say? but if Beinart would come out in full support of BDS with identical arguments to Munayer's and/or Suarez, why, the roof would cave in with the weightiness of the comments. - Danaa
I guess what I'm saying is that it's just Jews taking themselves way too seriously, and generally caring more about argumentation from within their own ranks than from without. And there, WJones lies the secret to Hostage's flare-up and disappearance - he found himself engaging in an argument with a non-Jew - and that's just a step too far down the ladder. You, WJones, with a name like... more... - Danaa
Now I can go and mourn for the dead and wounded Gazans in peace. I wonder how Hostage is feeling when the bombs are raining down hard and fast and the law books are shut down in the basement. I guess it's time for a little "prophetic" - at least Ellis is visible in the action. shall we give him some credit (I think we should....). - Danaa
Chomsky is at the top of the pyramid for some older white liberal men. The part that is disturbing for me after reading Chomsky is his instinct to blame USA (big brother etc) when he should have called put AIPAC in his latest article. - Chu_ from Android
Chomsky offers this detached perspective of negativity that got to me over the last decade. Before Iraq invasion I listened to him with much more intent. - Chu_ from Android
But his last BDS article must have them question and/or soul search for new leadership. Laying blame at usa in his last article shows how out of touch and irrelevant he is today. - Chu_ from Android
When all is said and done, are Noam Chomsky and Hostage basically liberal Zionists and ethnic tribalists? And are their liberal Zionism and ethnic tribalism a matter of very great emotion for them, despite their carefully cultivated veneer of elevated and cool rationality and objectivity? If so, it is inevitable that they will end up on the same team as Benjamin Netanyahu, Avigdor Lieberman and Naftali Bennett -- the chosen tribe vs. everyone else. That is how this entire debate will shake out. - Sean McBride
An ironclad social law: the more tribalistic you are, the more tribal conflict you generate. The more ethnocentric you are, the more ethnic conflict you generate. You don't need to be Albert Einstein (or Noam Chomsky) to figure this out. Live by tribalism and ethnocentrism, die by tribalism and ethnocentrism. This is why most members of modern Western democratic societies have decided to dial down their innate tendencies towards tribalism and ethnocentrism. - Sean McBride
Many Jewish Zionists, on the other hand, have decided to amp up their tribalism and ethnocentrism to the absolute max. And this is why there is a good possibility that the Jewish establishment is heading for a major breakup with "the West." Are any bright minds at JPPI thinking about these issues? If so, I have seen no signs that they are writing about them in a thoughtful way. - Sean McBride
My view on this issue is that a certain amount of tribalism and ethnocentrism is a natural and good thing -- but one has to moderate it. Ethnic *nationalism* on the other hand -- that strikes me as a dangerous and self-destructive ideology to embrace in the 21st century. - Sean McBride
(( Yet to an assortment of obviously Jewish ziobots, of the sort that invades MW now and then, Hostage finds the patience and civility to reply at length and with far greater respect than some of those bot comments deserve. Ever wondered about that?)) I thought he was just being diligent... - WJones
Phil Weiss should tell MJ to piss off. He's no good if Weiss really believes in BDS. - Chu_ from Android
BDS is winning the war. Fake ass leftist zionists are becoming a laughing stock. - Chu_ from Android
American
From Max Blumenthal tweet-----72 killed in Gaza - 400 Injured --Over 134 Targets Bombed by Isr
Observation: some blogs and Twitter feeds are now having a much greater impact on the public conversation than all of C-Span's programming combined -- they tend to cut cleanly through the noise. Their "product" is much easier to scan and digest. C-Span is very much old school. - Sean McBride
If there were a way to instantly zoom in on any section or passage of C-SPAN programming, that would be cool. Google is probably trying to figure out a way to do just that. - Sean McBride
See this Max Blumenthal tweet? -- point instantly grasped. - Sean McBride
84 Gazans Dead, about 600 injured. Israelis injured or dead? I think it's zero. http://www.aljazeera.com/news... - Chu_
'A vengeful, vindictive Jewish tribe has spoken'. is this payback for the three dead teens? What psychopathic & unlawful nation reacts this way? http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2014... - Chu_
Does anyone remember/have a link to a recent essay that made the point that protest movements amount to self-indulgence, comfort food for the protesters, without really having any impact? - ChasMark
What link?)......https://twitter.com/Mogaza............ Retweeted by Max Blumenthal - American
For the 1001 thousandth time-----to end Isr and I/P go after US politicians. - American
here's Fink: Since September 2000, Israeli forces have killed more than 3,000 Palestinians who did not participate in hostilities. http://normanfinkelstein.com/2014... … - Chu_
Chas....to follow anyone's tweets just google for instance 'max blumenthal twitter' or whoever and open the link---good idea to put in it your favorites and follow. - American
Here is Bumenthal's twitter link.....https://twitter.com/MaxBlum... - American
Here's a July 4th Chomsky Tweet: In the occupied territories the situation is far worse than it was in South Africa, where the white nationalists needed the black population https://twitter.com/daily_c... - Chu_
I think of twitter as a global morse code text message that you can send to anyone who follows that person. In general it's too truncated to really express much. Although when Max Blumenthol posts something like the death toll of Gazans, it's pretty effective. - Chu_
Guys -- those last few comments -- feel free to post them on GFTG -- I am not willing to take any responsibility for them for all the obvious reasons. We will have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. Thanks for your understanding. - Sean McBride
I am responsible not you...I am quite willing to take the blame. - American
I am emphatically opposed to using violence to try to overturn democratic societies -- one needs to use democratic methods to achieve democratic change. Again, feel free to post that material in your personal feeds or in GFTG. - Sean McBride
Those posts are guaranteed to provoke NSA, the FBI, DHS, Mossad, etc. to give you the full proctological treatment -- be my guest, if you enjoy that kind of thing. This is the kind of thinking that produced Baruch Goldstein, Yigal Amir and Frazier Glenn Miller. - Sean McBride
One changes political situations by changing minds and respecting the rule of law. It is hard work and requires patience. - Sean McBride
Btw, social media platforms are not remotely anonymous -- you haven't been paying attention to the Snowden revelations. - Sean McBride
Chas don't be a dumb ass. Saving lives? Effective at communicating a message to his fan base at that moment in time. It's good to get out bits of info when no one knows what going on? Like in Tahrir Square it was useful. I don't have twitter or follow any one on twitter. Mostly I see it pasted into peoples blogs. - Chu_
'' I am emphatically opposed to using violence to try to overturn democratic societies ...Sean)....We arent a democratic society any more...thats the problem. - American
imo twitter is useful mainly for what links to articles or events that might be inserted in them. a lot of twitters are just personal opinions of various followers.....I follow Max's because his is very active and gets a lot of response from a lot of different actors within the Isr and anti Isr group. Also he takes no shit from the chomskys or rosenbergs, max has guts and a quick, sharp bite.. - American
'btw, has it ever occurred to you that Tahrir Sq. was managed by the usual suspects?' wow, no genius, I never considered it. That's brilliant. Also I never said you were privileged - you don't seem privileged at all. - Chu_
yeah, you start it and then you want to finish it? Tell you what - Don't give me snide remarks and there won't be a problem. - Chu_
Just a reminder for those who may wish for revolutions (which I do myself, sometimes) - they never turn out well for the people, including those who started them. To american I say - remember the different ways the English changed their system vs the French. There are more ways than outright death of many (including numerous "innocents") to clip the wings of the aristocrats in charge.... more... - Danaa
they say Hamas and that they've received the upgraded Syrian rockets capable of reaching jerusalem and Tel Aviv, but I'd like to see some evidence of this. And not one Israeli has been hurt, but their retaliation is to bomb the Gazan prison camp killing whomever they feel satisfying their inquechable bloodlust. - Chu_
new longer range Khaibar-1 M302 rocket, capable of targetting much of the Israeli population. http://www.globalsecurity.org/militar... - Chu_
I have to remind Danaa of the American... and particulary the French Revolution. And what Ben Franklin said when a citizen asked him what the colonies had now...he said quote...."a Republic ..IF you can keep it''' ..unquote. We havent kept it. If you have a better suggestion as to how to rid the US of its corruption and war mongering filth and how to lock down Zio Israel once and for... more... - American
American, whether or not I have a solution is not the issue, because "targeted" assassinations are not a solution either. For one, they can never be targeted enough - lots of perfectly OK people get hurt along the way (as the drones have shown, quite conclusively - Israel's and the US's). For another, even suggesting that kind of response strengthens the hands of the bad guys since now... more... - Danaa
The way to effect change in democratic societies is by changing public opinion. One best changes public opinion by changing elite opinion. One best changes elite opinion through effective communications and organization. Any dissident groups that were foolish enough to try to change the American political system through violent means would be instantly crushed by massive and overwhelming force -- they wouldn't stand a prayer, and they would enjoy no support from most Americans. - Sean McBride
The United States, even though it has been corrupted by big money, is still basically a democratic society -- we enjoy regular elections and free speech. Certainly on the Internet, which is the medium through which most thoughtful people receive their news these days, all points of view are heard -- including vigorous criticism of Israel, the Israel lobby and the billionaire backers of... more... - Sean McBride
Only powerful governments can get away with "targeted assassinations" -- and even they are on shaky ground -- subject to potential severe legal backlashes down the road in the light of shifting political winds. Bottom line: nothing is more precious to protect than the rule of law. - Sean McBride
Glenn Greenwald and Phil Weiss have provided a good model for how to try to effect change within democratic societies -- struggle mightily in the war of ideas -- change minds through superior information and arguments. And if sometimes you lose these battles, you lose -- you lick your wounds and move on. No one wins all the time in passionate conflicts and confrontations over domestic and foreign policy. - Sean McBride
Sean, it was not Glen Greenwald but Edward Snowden that made the difference with Greenwald a vehicle only. Snowden sacrificed his existing life to reveal what he did while greenwald only benfited - he is probably cleaning out as we speak. Ultimately real change requires enormous sacrifice from 100's and 1000's of people. The kudos go not so much to Phil weiss who is just a blog, after... more... - Danaa
American is right about one thing for sure - the Palestinians have no time to wait. Not really. BDS will take another 10 years to get somewhere serious, and Israel has a plan for those 10 years. All the twitter lists and all the connections and all the Big data in the world cannot help us save a single Palestinian child's life. - Danaa
((BDS will take another 10 years to get somewhere serious, and Israel has a plan for those 10 years.)) Right. Scatter the West Bank VERY THOROUGHLY with well-populated settlements, so that they are no longer settlements but a spider web of cities running interconnected through the West Bank. The Pals get to live on practically unlivable slivers of land with no farming space left because... more... - WJones
So that's the quandry WJones - what can any of us do while this is playing out. We are not Palestinians, you don't care to visit that forsaken place and I have no desire to go back any time soon (Plus I'm not sure they'll even let me in - I renounced my citizenship but they may choose not to finalize that). We are out here in the US where the Hasbara seems as strong as ever, even though... more... - Danaa
Chomsky described what jones references- the divided 'bantustans' . But big leaders like himself don't want to hold Israel's feet to the fire. Does this stem from a fear of being Goldstoned by their community/synagogue or an inherent zionist instinct? - Chu_ from Android
Probably both. And there are worse fates than being Goldstoned. - Sean McBride
American Zionists want to create the illusion that in Israel 'it's business as usual' but their fantasy is not going to last. Everyone and their mother knows the game Israel and hasbara employ. It almost feels so cheap that they believe they can get away with this stale 'explanation' of the 'facts on the ground' when we can read 100 articles to their 30 hasbara pieces. At this point... more... - Chu_
The main problem Israel has to worry about is that Americans and Europeans could grow weary of dealing with Israel's strident emotional demands for exceptional attention -- and that weariness could easily morph into annoyance, resentment and anger -- like a really bad marriage that eventually explodes. Israel should have solved its problems in its neighborhood decades ago and settled into normality. Instead, its problems keep escalating in ways that threaten the well-being of the entire planet. - Sean McBride
I think most Euros are weary of Israel. Hasbara is losing their Euro Allies. Now most clueless Americans are aware of the problem - Israel’s exceptional nature, to put it mildly. - Chu_
"exceptional" -- to the most extreme degree possible. - Sean McBride
As much as we disparage Chomsky, we do have to account for AMERICAN exceptionalism -- is it a real meme among foreign policy elites? What are its roots? - ChasMark
American intellectual and cultural history is one of my fields of expertise. That is a huge topic -- American exceptionalism -- with numerous streams of influence. - Sean McBride
The main point to keep in mind is that traditional American exceptionalism has been hijacked by Zionism -- primarily by Israel-centric and Judeo-centric neoconservatives. Contemporary American exceptionalism is a radical deviation from traditional American exceptionalism. Zionist exceptionalism is in severe conflict with basic American values and interests. - Sean McBride
When most Americans begin to comprehend the degree to which the Israel lobby has pushed American culture off the rails, their anger will match that of American -- and probably exceed it. - Sean McBride
'' their anger will match that of American -- and probably exceed it.''.Sean)......I know a number of people here locally whose anger far exceeds mine and they know just enough to be dangerous as saying goes. And they are mainline religious and die hard conservatives-- double trouble The retired military here are no fans of Israel and all the I-First politicians either. Isr's Cast Lead... more... - American
There's a synagogue on a main artery in Bethesda that has a banner (as many synagogues do) across the front, "We support Israel in its quest for peace ...." If I had a couple million dollars I'd buy the property across the street and display a banner, "I support the USA. End the zionist occupation!" btw, it strikes me as curious that the sign has never been so much as smudged or knocked... more... - ChasMark
Sean has deleted my post from Paul Eisen's blog of the corpse of Muhammad Abu Khdir. I understand Sean's squeamishness. The Catholic Pro-Life movement made deliberate and almost obscene use of photographs to arouse anti-abortion passions. Abu Khadir's corpse has his intestines resting on what's left of abdomen; genitalia has been burned. It's brutal, worse than Emmett Till. - ChasMark
I'm trying to remember the novel I read recently -- either Lee Child or Steve Berry -- that included explanation of torture methods used by some ancient culture -- slit the abdomen, pull out intestines & lay them on the still-alive torturee, whose eyelids are taped open so he can watch himself die. "Gone Tomorrow" by Lee Child. That's the book. And it wasn't an "ancient culture;" the son of one of the main characters was killed that way, and streaming video of the death sent -- Tweeted? -- to his mother. - ChasMark
When I'm not being snide toward Chu or sarcastic toward Sean, I catalog popular fiction. Pre-WWI England was saturated with pop fiction valorizing war and demonizing Germany. British were the preeminent propagandists of the entire era (don't believe the nonsense you hear about Goebbels; German propaganda was largely ineffectual -- too rational & too intellectual). Today's popular crime,... more... - ChasMark
These novels are sent by the pallet to US forces overseas. - ChasMark
that was disgusting though. I didn't want to view it. - Chu_
Extreme atrocity propaganda is the most vile form of pornography. I wonder about the kind people who traffic in it. Pamela Geller is fond of it. You don't need it to make your points. - Sean McBride
The photo of Abu Khadir is not propaganda. It is reality. That is the difference. regarding refraining from use of violence -- no entity in power ever surrendered power voluntarily; some force was required. The Kishinev pogrom in which 49 Jews were killed was turned into atrocity propaganda that, according to J J Goldberg writing in the Forward, "changed history" for the next century... more... - ChasMark
Propaganda is usually based on facts and reality-- it is primarily about the framing, highlighting and interpreting of selected facts and aspects of reality, often with the object of inciting mass murder. - Sean McBride
got a source for that definition, Sean? - ChasMark
Chas. Try and keep it. R rated. That stuff deserves to be seen on documenting reality. I saw the pic of that homeless guy in Miami get his face Aten off and that stayed with me for a while. - Chu_ from Android
[Wikipedia; Propaganda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...] "Propaganda is information that is not impartial and used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, often by presenting facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or using loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented." >>BY PRESENTING FACTS SELECTIVELY / EMOTIONAL RESPONSE<< - Sean McBride
from wiki: ""Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist."[4]" | Unless the atrocity committed against Abu Khadir was carried out by a propaganda ministry, it was an event, not a "deliberate attempt to shape perceptions." Displaying his... more... - ChasMark
@ Sean -- "often with the object of inciting mass murder. - Sean McBride" -- This assertion has not been supported. - ChasMark
Chu, I don't understand your comment. - ChasMark
Documenting Reality shows dead bodies and all that stuff. At least if you post something like that say warning graphic imagery and provide a link. - Chu_ from Android
'' WE sit here and ruminate sadly about Gaza. But what on earth aeare we doing to save the life of a single Gazan? to counter the Israeli stream of hatred? what use are any of us, really, other than vent a few more rants? - Danaa).......Since I dont have a army my method of fighting Israel is constantly phoning, mailing, my senator and congressman and even other politicians office's... more... - American
WJones
It is nice writing with you and I understand your anger at Israeli society. Talking about "destruction" of Israeli society or individuals is not only needless and counterproductive, but it's a Major liability too. Friendfeed is nice, but it's a very personal service. If you want to talk with me, it's OK, but just please do it on Mondoweiss comments. In case you change your mind, you can talk about it there and then we an go from there. Thanks. - WJones
Ah so you want to play games with me Jonesie? - American
Several day ago you sent me a direct private message asking me how I became interested in I/P. I answered in good faith and explained to you my progression from 911 to ME history to US-MR relations to US-Isr relations to the fifth column jewish/zio/ Isr lobbies and orgs in the US influencing our government.. And I further explained that imo, and what I concluded from more than a year of intensive research, and many more years since then--was that Zionism had to be ' destroyed'. - American
Since you have, as I see now, 'deleted" the comments in your direct private message to me I cant quote myself exactly and may have but dont remember saying that Israel needs to be dismantled if it comes to that. Furthermore current events have reinforced my opinions even more.. - American
Your answer to my explainations and opinion was to say I was immoral, it was immoral to even think of killing for any reason--I dont remember if you said Jews or not. I replied that' destroy' did not necessarily mean or imply 'killing' You said you would have to *'not talk to or limit your communications with me* because of my immoral stance. I replied that was o.k.... that you have your idea of morals and I have my idea of morals. That you think I am immoral and I think you are fool...so we differ. - American
The problem I see is with the word "dismantled". What does that mean exactly is different things to different people. To some violence is implied. To others - well, they see it more as "dissolving" something naturally, over time, simply because it has not enough substance to stay together as a solid entity (sorry for being too scientific). For me, the entire idea of a "Jewish" state... more... - Danaa
back to the first point - for me, the jewishness of the Jewish state is what has to be "dismantled". I much prefer that it be done, over time, as a natural process - an unseemly enterprise falling of its own accord, perhaps yielding to something better. That's why I support an all-out BDS as the way to go. IT is guaranteed to drive Israelis absolutely bonkers, without lifting a single... more... - Danaa
The trouble i see with even wishing for violent end, is that this plays straight into the hands of the worst elements in that country, in addition to it being, well, as WJones says, immoral. No way to limit violence to real evil doers, no way to limit retribution on innocents, no way to keep the higher moral ground. And to me keeping that high ground is absolutely essential when it... more... - Danaa
Danaa.....I can only tell you things I believe are absolutely true and are being proven more true. The First is that once I understood zionism, reading Herzl,etc....I believed it was 'destined' to be the disaster it has become. "Seperation from others" + Nationalism + the idea of a World Wide Nation of Jews had to turn into a hostile ethno/religo/nationalist cult. The Jews made the... more... - American
Danaa....I am wishing for a violent end? You are making 'assumptions' about my wishes and 'preferences'. But do take the moral high road ---the Palestines will admire you and Jones from their graves. - American
I was not making assumptions, American. Was only interjecting out of left field. I just know that sometimes I get carried away with my own anger at the way things are and feeling rather powerless to affect change in the immediate future. When I am very angry I can say things that I later have to take back. The lecture was somewhat directed at myself more than anyone else. I imagine that... more... - Danaa
Sean McBride
Hostage has posted more than 10,000 comments on Mondoweiss -- many of them of great documentary value.
Here is his Mondoweiss page: http://mondoweiss.net/profile... - Sean McBride
It is easy, for instance, to retrieve all his comments on Theodor Herzl: http://mondoweiss.net/profile... - Sean McBride
Hostage on David Ben-Gurion: http://mondoweiss.net/profile... - Sean McBride
observation: Hostage has a lot of time on his hands, or is paid by someone. - ChasMark
He may well be retired and financially secure. - Sean McBride
If you're Jewish & financially secure, you have greater freedom of movement & expression than if you are not Jewish. It is not unlikely that a non-Jew who speaks out in ways that significantly ruffle the feathers of the PTB will find himself on the wrong end of an IRS audit, "Lawfare," or some other similar tactic. It's happened before. *** -- Although -- Jeffrey Steinberg (Jewish) and... more... - ChasMark
I am pretty sure that Hostage is retired, having spent much of his time in international law and the like, most likely behind the scenes, abjucating perhaps for various UN bodies. He is far from being the only one who is well-retired that's commenting on MW and other such blogs. As I said before, chances are that most ubiquitous commentators on political matters are retired or at least... more... - Danaa
Hostage strikes me as rather a heroic figure. He is one of the most formidable debaters I have ever seen -- capable of shredding multimillion dollar hasbara operations all by himself and with the greatest of ease. Most pro-Israel activists steer clear of him to avoid being intellectually crushed. - Sean McBride
He still has a blind spot on chomsky.....chomsky lies about US motives and the facts in many of the examples he gives----and if hostage is the avid legal and historical researcher he seems to be then he knows full well chomsky lies and for whatever reason he wont address that aspect of chomsky. - American
I generally agree -- that is why I have debated Hostage about Chomsky in the past -- and always felt that I was getting the runaround. But no two of us are ever going to agree on everything -- and Hostage is right on almost everything else. - Sean McBride
I'm not sure if Chomsky is lying -- but he is definitely bending and twisting. Nonetheless, his book, The Fateful Triangle (first published decades ago), remains one of the best (and most critical examinations) of Israel. - Sean McBride
"Jeffrey Steinberg (Jewish) and his wife, Michelle (Catholic) were jailed for some of their writing." -- really? - Sean McBride
Yes. It happened that we shared an elevator; Mrs. S. said they had been jailed consequent to their work. - ChasMark
I Googled a bit and discovered an important connection between the Steinberg situation and the false accusations against Steven Hatfill in the 9/11 anthrax attacks: Kahanist Mordechai Levi. - Sean McBride
# Some connected topics 1. 9/11 anthrax attacks 2. A.J. Weberman 3. assassinations 4. black ops 5. chaos agents 6. JDL (Jewish Defense League) 7. JDO (Jewish Defense Organization) 8. Jeffrey Steinberg 9. Lyndon LaRouche 10. Michelle Steinberg 11. Mordechai Levi 12. Steven Hatfill 13. terrorist attacks - Sean McBride
[Wikipedia; Mordechai Levy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...] - Sean McBride
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
How long can Israel depend on Mizrahi docile loyalty? Smadar Lavie asks in new book - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
Smadar Lavie's new book, Wrapped in the Flag of Israel, shines a light on intra-Jewish racism in Israel. Largely unrecognized by diaspora Jewry, discrimination against the majority Mizrahim (Arab Jews) has the effect of blunting progressive movements in the country, though the Mizrahim have failed to make common cause with Palestinians
I just put up a comment on this post - went up instantly, even though it was long (what else is new?). Shmuel makes some excellent points too. - Danaa
Sean McBride
Phil Weiss, Max Blumenthal, Adam Horowitz and Alex Kane have produced more interesting and useful writing and thinking on Mideast and Israeli issues in recent years than Noam Chomsky.
Chomsky rarely mentions any topics of interest. He never does any independent investigative research -- that would require too much work. - Sean McBride
He has his socio-economic theories, of course -- his "grand model" of the world -- from which he spins the same simplistic analysis over and over again. - Sean McBride
pepsi reminds me of Ted Cruz. (He is still flooding the group with unwanted comments. He is the only person in the history of Friendfeed to engage in this antisocial behavior.) - Sean McBride
I admire Hillary Leverett tremendously. She is forthright in her deep admiration for Chomsky https://www.youtube.com/watch.... Specifically, she acknowledges how much she was motivated by Chomsky's 1967 essay, The Responsibility of Intellectuals http://www.chomsky.info/article... I must say that that essay is the only work of Chomsky's that impressed me. - ChasMark
Chomsky's early works are impressive and useful -- but his thinking has become quite stale. Cut him some slack -- he's 85. The minds of most of the best of us have slowed down well before that age. Many people that age can barely string together two thoughts or words. - Sean McBride
It's not really age. Finkelstein and J Street have more youth and are stuck. - WJones
True -- they are already exceedingly old, mentally speaking. - Sean McBride
Frankly, I look at Chomsky, who at 85 can still think and write - if not as clearly and edge-cuttingly as before - and I can only wish that if and when I reach that stage of life, I'd still be able to get legions of young and agile minds, swirling all around, chomping at the bits and taking bites here and there. I don't feel the need to cut him slack but I do marvel that he has as much... more... - Danaa
I just left Keith another comment (on another thread - the Chomsky one closed down) , basically saying what I said above - not many posts can generate 250 comments+ in two days and that alone should give us all a cause for reflection upon our own roles and interests. It is true - there's not so much we can say at the sight of IDF's pogroms against the Palestinians other than lament and... more... - Danaa
I'll give the link when - and if the comment goes up. - Danaa
If Chomsky and Hostage think that things are 100 times worse anyplace else you talk about, they should stop spending so much time on IP issues and spend 100 times more effort on those other places. - WJones
Sean McBride
It's fun to watch the Chomskyites rant -- the level of emotion says it all regarding the basic cultism of the Chomsky phenomenon. See Keith's latest: http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
And Hostage is now attacking WJones as "an arrogant and artless prevaricator." This is some serious religion -- you'd better believe it. - Sean McBride
I have debated a hardcore PEP over almost a year until it broke me down emotionally from the claims about Muslims, etc. They combine nastiness with nationalistic talking points. - WJones
Keith apparently thinks that if you don't buy the Chomsky religion that you are quite likely a brainless America Firster and a capitalist imperialist. The ideological crudity of Chomskyism is really remarkable -- it doesn't deal in empirical facts about the real world. - Sean McBride
Keith would probably have been pro-Stalinist in the 1930s -- that was very much in vogue among "enlightened" hard leftists during that period -- they believed that their social and economic theories were an accurate guide to the real world. - Sean McBride
Hostage's language used to be more tempered and civil -- something strange is happening there in his style of communication. - Sean McBride
I don't know what happened to Hostage either. Someone or something have gotten to him. May be he received threats behind the scenes, and it rattled him. - Danaa
I hate to see this happening to Hostage....I dont know why he is doing it. I've never noticed he was a supporter of zionism or israel--thought he was the exact opposite. I wonder if he feels bound to defend chomsky because they are both jewish. Is Hostage a religious jew?..like Mooser?...could be circling of the wagons because things are cutting too close to the bone all of a sudden. - American
For some reason Jerry Slater comes to mind too. such an erudite and thorough commentator, who suddenly went totally off the rails in the comments section, accusing just about anything and anyone that moved (ie, other than Donald) of being an anti-semite. It was totally weird. - Danaa
Danaa: Please ask Hostage. - WJones
You think he'd tell me? He'd probably tell you before he would tell me. - American
OK, so I have a theory. Most of the people who post a lot in the comments are probably older and retired (other than some who are still students and a few who are scouting news items plus a few hasbarantnicks and/or sockpuppets who think they are doing a service to the universe). Of the ones who are older, many have had impressive careers in various areas, and have gotten used to... more... - Danaa
I will, at an opportune moment, ask Hostage in my usual 'sweet" way. - Danaa
Cool. - WJones
In terms of Slater, Yes. Also, Hostage talked about helping Vietnam refugees. he must be old and grew up thinking Chomsky was amazing. - WJones
I think we all understand that there is a 'thing' that happens among many jews when they suddenly think too much is piling up on their few "liberal" jews and making it come down on the whole tribe. Lets face it, there arent really a lot of (public figure) jews out there telling the truth , even if its shaded and half truths like chomsky so they feel compelled to rally around the ones they have. Its similar to having to defend your brother or a family member even when you know they are wrong. - American
there is an element of "who needs this" in Hostage's responses. He is getting hot under the collar and this feels wrong to him. Out of character. The I/P debate will eventually do that to anyone. It's one reason I don't allow myself to get drageed into lengthy debates about the meaning of words and verbiage. There's no winning there, IMO. just spending a lot of time arguing. In the end,... more... - Danaa
America, what I said above about the difficulty of handling "loss of implied respect" is just a psychological factor that sometimes seems to afflict jewish academics especially hard. No wonder they go a little "tribal" as they age. At least there's belonging there, if not at the alma matter. Another one I'm thinking of - Goldstone. The threat of being evicted from good standing within the tribe becomes that much harder to take when the professional life comes to an end-point of sorts. - Danaa
'' have gotten used to receiving automatic respect"..Danaa.....I think you are correct in Slater's case...part of his inability to handle questioning and criticism of his ideas. His Just War Theory thread was the mother of all blow ups. - American
Histage is saying that when Chomsky says that BDS should call itself BD that Chomsky is saying BDS supporters need to be more effective in calling for sanctions. - WJones
Here is what Chomsky actually says about sanctions: Safundi: That's my question. One of the important tactics against the apartheid government was the eventual use of sanctions. Do you see that as a possibility? Chomsky: No. In fact I've been strongly against it in the case of Israel. - WJones
Interesting thing about the Slater Just War argument on MW---I was googling for something one day and accidently hit on a site that had copied our arguements with him and posted them on their site---I remember they posted one of my comments back to him and some others, dont remember whose. I was curious about other bloggers lurking around MW and then using our stuff to post and found... more... - American
Hostage needlessly diverts into defending something I never brought up: ((" Once you are born in a country, you become a legal fact on the ground. You have a right to be there, and to leave and return to your country of origin, even if your ancestors were colonists.))~Hostage - WJones
I defended the right of return as viable in accordance with the 2SS and he goes into a rant about how Israelis have a right to be there. - WJones
I never denied that or even brought it up in the first place. - WJones
Why is he getting defensive about something I never brought up. - WJones
((comments about discarding the international consensus 2ss can, and have been, decried as anti-semtic because they supposedly deny Jews the right to self-determination and Israel's right to exist. ))~Hostage - WJones
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - WJones
Hostage acts like twe 'hate' Chomsky because he doesnt say what we want him to say.....which is totally silly. What we are criticizing are his 'distortions' of facts that he uses to transfer all blame from isr and zionism to the US empire. And I sure aint a defender of my country's past or current policies and actions either so my attacking Chomsky's slants isnt about painting the US as... more... - American
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - WJones)....WOW is right, this is a complete new side of Hostage. - American
He has said elsewhere in the past that Chomsky supports Sanctions, when I showed him that Chomsky told Safundi that he opposes Sanctions. That was in 2004, and Chomsky's reason was that a "majority of the population" doesn't want them. - WJones
Hostage's main point about BDS being antisemitic is because it has the right of return. He said that since some Muslims who signed it are antisemitic, then it is a denial of the people's right to self determination and is therefore antisemitic as a petition. This is a problematic way of logic on several levels. A petition that just asks for someone's rights is not antisemtic. - WJones
((Mondoweiss has maintained an anti-Chomsky outlook which appealed to the core commenters who gravitated to the Mondo website. Many are America Firsters)) ~Keith. Wow. So Americans should not put America first in US foreign policy? - WJones
If America does not put America first when it comes to negotiating with, say, Canada, there is a problem. Even being on the planet has to put its own interests "first". I am not America over all. But come on. - WJones
Put up a reply for keith. Hope you guys will like (when and if it goes up). - Danaa
BTW, I noticed that the bar on the right does not seem to refresh with new comments. Must be another one of those features they deliberately slowed down in an attempt to cut back on the commentary. - Danaa
Chomsky is actually more conservative than Finkelstein when it comes to talking about BDS and Apartheid. He goes on a very long rant about Apartheid at IAW Harvard. - WJones
Sean McBride
Article: Glenn Greenwald's Big NSA Story Gets Squashed | OpEdNews - http://www.opednews.com/article...
Article: Glenn Greenwald's Big NSA Story Gets Squashed | OpEdNews
"On Monday, Pulitzer prize winning journalist Glenn Greenwald let the news slip via Twitter that his long-awaited NSA story was to be published on The Intercept at midnight. By Tuesday morning, much to the dismay of myself and many others it appeared that the site - which since its rollout has been disappointly devoid of new material - has caved to government pressure tactics did not post the story. According to a rather cryptic Tweet by Greenwald later on Monday, "After 3 months working on our story, USG today suddenly began making new last-minute claims which we intend to investigate before publishing". Might any of those claims be based on trumped up charges that publication would play right into the hands of the "terrorists" and could a permanent delay be in the works?" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"After that cryptic tweet it is time to consider seriously that the "imminent" game-changing story on NSA surveillance targets and other acts of wanton state criminality has been sunk by the US government. Whatever it is that those "new last-minute claims" that preempted the publication by The Intercept at midnight last night consisted of, they must have been of the gravest nature to... more... - Sean McBride
Funny, this is exactly what I expected. I just knew in my guts that this is how they were going to derail Glreenwald's effectiveness - allow him - for months now - to go on promising "fireworks", only to produce a dud. We should probably look at the ways in which this "compromise Greenwald" operation was planned and mounted, up to the crescendo that never came. I don't think that there... more... - Danaa
Glen said this 'blockbuster' release was going to be about 'who' NSA targeted in the US---since its no big shocker and we all already know they targeted Muslims I figure the 'whos ' in his release has some serious US VIP's and elites in it. For what reasons they were targeted we can guess maybe....political, suspected treason, financial snooping, - American
The Intercept was aptly named -- it intercepted Greenwald's most important revelations. - Sean McBride
It appears now that greenwald has made a pile off snowden he's covering his own ass and chickening out. ....Hero to zero. - American
The most important result of this "chickening out" by Greenwald et al is to compromise Glenn on the left among privacy advocates, while reinforcing the impression that The Intercept will turn ito another exercise of aggraggate ineffectual opinionating on the left. Devoid of much independent investigation that can challenge the establishment story-telling enterprise. What on earth are they expecting to do that publications such as Truthdig, Antiwar.com, The nation and others like it don't? - Danaa
We should watch, in the coming days, for the palatable disappointment on the spineless left front (the center right will of course just gloat, but that's not something unusual exactly). I can already hear the mournful drum beat in the distance. - Danaa
As for what was in Greenwald's expose, it's not very hard to guess - basically any US voice that was effective in challenging the establishment is on NSA's list. Surely this will range from the likes of Grayson in congress to Ron and Rand Paul, Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Chris hedges, Michael Hastings and everyone who was ever anyone anywhere. What may have been problematic were probably the... more... - Danaa
Do people really think this sudden attack on Chris hedges for "plaegerism" was a coincidence? or the incredible quietness of Naomi Klein? or the fanfare surrounding Greenwald's book release? there are special "red dots" for potentially influencial voices. TPTB know what they can use to silence any of them at any time, large and small. No human has a completely "clean" life, not if they... more... - Danaa
Naomi Klein in particular has expressed a lot of skepticism about Greenwald. She has been very vocal questioning his motives and the grandstanding. She even had her publicist contact him to ask why he announced the release of this list instead of just releasing it - Eric Logan
Eric, you have a link to Naomi's comments on this? I must agree with her on this - why on earth announce the release of a "list", draw attention to some "grand finale" only to have it all turn into a dud? This really made me suspicious....after all, if the "list" was really all that controversial, why on earth give the USG a chance to "vet" it knowing full well they don't want it to become public? - Danaa
On her personal and public Facebook feed. If you search her twitter timeline you should be able to find her publicist asking Greenwald questions that she asked when he announced the impending reveal. I am on my phone at the moment, but she has been skeptical for a long time now. I will post the links when I get home. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
My apologies. Naomi Wolf is the author who has been calling him out. This was the genesis lots more on her timelines. http://digwithin.net/2014... - Eric Logan
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Chomsky opposes BDS, citing realism and int’l consensus - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
Noam Chomsky says that BDS will fail because there is no international consensus in favor of the right of return-- though he seems to say the return is a worthy human rights goal. And he says the U.S. will never stop supporting Israel in its expansion into the West Bank. The piece is sure to be criticized on the left.
I wonder if my exchanges with Hostage had anything to do with this new article. - WJones
There is a uncommented on common thread that runs thru the reasoning of the PEPs like Chomsky, Slater, MJ, Beinart ,etc etc. It is the 'implied assumption" put out as 'fact' that nothing will done about Israel becuase it is Israel..i.e. a "jewish" state. Whether it is Slater telling us not to pressure the dems on Israel cause the dems would never give it up or mj bragging the Israeli... more... - American
That all may be true, but the answer then should be to move forward in the face of defeat. - WJones
American, what you just said about the "common thread" is truer and more to the point than almost all the other points I've seen, concerning Chomsky, Finkelstein, Slater, etc. This is beginning to smell of a kind of a concerted "PR" campaign, using the line - Israel will do what it wants anyways, the jewish state is a fait acompli, nothing can be done for the palestinians other than... more... - Danaa
^Nice insights in this comment Feed. - WJones
Chomsky calls this pov 'realism'.....I dont think it is realistic. But he and they will continue to promote this fallacy right down to the day someone reduces Isr to ashes. It reminds me of the fable in the Prince about the fox---> the fox came out of his hole in the morning and saw what a big shadow he cast in morning sun so he said to himself I will have a camel for lunch....he tried... more... - American
To me, both Chomsky and Finkelstein embody the fundamental weakness of the American jewish left - weakness, as in weak-in-the-knees. No wonder israelis - including of the intellectual class - are so rather contemptuous of American jews. You want to see brave - look at Shlomo Sand, the breaking the Silence and Zochrot groups (and others like them). Can anyone even imagine such efforts in... more... - Danaa
'' And what is it israelis know that American jews - even the best of them refuse to see? - Danaa)...I dont really know. Except for US Jews it appears to me that a lot of their Isr support is tied up with their jewish 'egos'. More so than any guilt over US jews not stopping the holocaust. particulary the uber zios...notice how they talk as if 'they' now direct the US FP---the 'only'... more... - American
'' the jewish state is a fait acompli, '...Danaa)...Yep, thats the bottom line they want to impart and reinforce in all Isr critics. - American
Good comments you made, Danaa, in the MW comments thread. From personal experience, I suppose. - WJones
Sean McBride
# TML (Tree Markup Language): a few basic terms and concepts
1. backslash (\) 2. branch depth 3. branches 4. bundles 5. chains 6. collections 7. colon (:) 8. dates 9. elements 10. equal sign (=) 11. formats 12. leaves 13. lines 14. links 15. notes 16. objects 17. parts 18. properties 19. right angle bracket (>) 20. roots 21. semicolon (;) 22. separators 23. slash (/) 24. subbranches 25. subcategories 26. subsections 27. subtopics 28. templates 29. trees 30. values 31. variables - Sean McBride
For example: - Sean McBride
Israel lobby > neoconservatives > neoconservative > Robert Kagan > affiliation: > Skull and Bones - Sean McBride
Israel lobby > neoconservatives > organization > FPI (Foreign Policy Initiative) > member: > Robert Kagan - Sean McBride
1. the right angle bracket (>) is a *separator*. 2. strings between separators are *elements*. 3. elements followed by a colon (:) are properties. 4. elements directly before a property are *objects*. 5. elements directly after properties are *values*. 6. the entire line is a *branch*. 7. the final element in a branch is a *leaf*. 8. elements without colons are, moving from left to right, subsections, subtopics or subcategories. 9. the first element in a branch is the *root*. - Sean McBride
Object/property/value triples can be chained to any depth: - Sean McBride
Israel lobby > neoconservatives > organization > FPI (Foreign Policy Initiative) > member: > Robert Kagan > wife: > Victoria Nuland - Sean McBride
All the knowledge in the world can expressed in TML. - Sean McBride
All branches are one-line expressions and can also be referred to as "notes." - Sean McBride
A tree is a collection of branches with the same root. - Sean McBride
There is an entirely different way to do this markup -- with triple chains (where triples are objects, properties and values). Simply enclose properties within square brackets: - Sean McBride
Israel lobby [sub] neoconservatives [sub] neoconservative [instance] Robert Kagan [affiliation] Skull and Bones - Sean McBride
Israel lobby [sub] neoconservatives [sub] organization [instance] FPI (Foreign Policy Initiative) [member] Robert Kagan - Sean McBride
Israel lobby [sub] neoconservatives [sub] organization [instance] FPI (Foreign Policy Initiative) [member] Robert Kagan [wife] Victoria Nuland - Sean McBride
"sub" above refers generally to subcategories, subsections, subsets, subtopics, etc. - Sean McBride
this tree could really take any visial form after a model is created. It doesn't have to be a literal tree it could be vinelike or have stumps indicating the death of some ideological sub component. - Chu_
Is it possible to link posted articles to other feeds if you are not the author of the feed? - Chu_
Sure -- by sharing in most apps. - Sean McBride
Which of those two notation systems do you find easier to read and write? - Sean McBride
Once you have the raw data in order, you can present it in many different ways, including data visualizations of any conceivable variety. - Sean McBride
If I want to link an article that American wrote on MWFF I could use bookmarklet to post it on MWFF2? - Chu_
Easy as pie. - Sean McBride
what does it do for you? - ChasMark
Knowledge tools like this greatly speed up one's ability to understand domains, situations, events, networks and objects (people, organizations, etc.) and to act effectively on that understanding. They are especially useful for discovering important hidden patterns and connections in data. - Sean McBride
What if you could instantly and easily visualize all the links between any two objects in the world? "Get" the connections in a flash? We are close to being able to do that. - Sean McBride
Have you thought much about the role of knowledge tools in the evolution of human civilization? It's a huge subject. Knowledge is power. - Sean McBride
For instance, it would be interesting to be able to fill in all the placeholders/variables in this branch and view the results as a single plain text list: [FPI (Foreign Policy Initiative) > member: > *member > book by: > *book] - Sean McBride
Am I speaking in an alien tongue? :) - Sean McBride
In understanding the world, the devil is always in the details -- the more granular, the better. - Sean McBride
You are speaking in an alien tongue. At least to me. - Danaa
I think the problem I see is that one first has to set the agenda for the exercise. What Chu has suggested was something that's meant to inform - visually and easily - rather than something meant to "further" knowledge or accumulate "power". We are far far away here from being an "outfit" seeking "knowledge" about hidden patterns. Trouble is, the way I see it, most of us already know... more... - Danaa
All of this stuff is very elementary in current research on AI, data mining, the Semantic Web, etc. These ideas are revolutionizing our world. It's worthwhile to take the effort to read a few basic texts on these subjects. - Sean McBride
Example - take Hillary Clinton. We know she is a neocon of the liberal interventionist mode. Proving it is not hard, based on quotations from her book. Convincing others of that IS hard. - Danaa
Danaa -- deciding on which markup schemes to use for knowledge representation is an ongoing social negotiation. So let's negotiate. :) - Sean McBride
The data mining exercise is fine for those who are interested in that. The question is - what for? to prove something to those who have no interest in being "convinced" ? to prepare an iPhone app/ (say something like "neo/con/not")? the first order of the day should be "why"? not "what"? - Danaa
Regarding Hillary Clinton's neocon warmongering: these tools make it possible to nail down that point with a wealth of concrete and particular detail -- to make a crushing case. You and I don't need all that detail because our intuitive antennae are first-rate. :) But many people are not very intuitive -- they need a large collection of well-organized facts to be persuaded. - Sean McBride
Data mining methods can be used to answer "why" questions as well as "what" questions -- especially in identifying the ideological, cultural and financial factors that motivate the human behavior of specific individuals. - Sean McBride
The "negotiation" exercise you are talking about, Sean, seems like work. That's something I prefer to get paid for, unless it is something I am specifically interested in that no-one will ever want to pay for. The problem I see is again - first one has to answer the question "why should I bother", before proceeding to do too much work. For me, something that is done for "fun" rather than "work" (both defined broadly) must be well motivated, and actually be "fun". Otherwise, I'll be talking to myself, no? - Danaa
Creating structured data is no more work than creating unstructured data (which is what most Internet commenters are doing). In fact, it is often easier to create -- and it is universally reusable -- it can eternally reverberate in combination with other structured data in all kinds of unexpected, creative and productive ways. - Sean McBride
On another board where I used to post, involving MH370 disappearance, there was an exercise started by someone to data mine the publically disclosed information - both what's published and then what's buried. It seemed to be going place, but then only two individuals were left standing It got too complicated for everyone else who, after all, were already convinced that what happened is... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- I am definitely not trying to force these ideas and conventions on you. :) Express yourself as you will. You brought up the idea of using "trees" to express factual data a few days ago, and I am observing that quite a few formal tools are being developed to do precisely that. Google, for instance, is using some of them to create Google Knowledge Graph. - Sean McBride
Sean, it still looks like lots of work. If I was inclined to do so much heavy lifting I would want to do it on a blog that will be all my own. In the end, it's one individual doing research for their own personal interests, perhaps in the company of a few die-hards. - Danaa
Many people are involved in this kind of work: Wikipedia couldn't have been build without their efforts -- and everyone I know uses Wikipedia all the time. Ditto for Right Web and Sourcewatch. - Sean McBride
Have you seen this? [Powerbase http://www.powerbase.info/index...] - Sean McBride
What i hooked up on was the idea of using something like "ancestry.com" to describe connections. It's actually the same as tree "branches" but with a more immediate word to describe the connections (cousing, uncles, bla-blas) with photos of the individuals next to the names and links to supporting data (only one or two pieces). People will be more interested in things named using... more... - Danaa
That proposal of yours is a great idea, but it immediately gets you into the world of structured data. Once you are in that world, you need to do it right -- to use a set of effective conventions. - Sean McBride
To reiterate - my agenda is to be able to inform others who are not knowledge-savvy, and do so on the level of "ideas"rather than "mystery connections" Those mystery connections can be used by those who are inclined to symbolism. Most people are not, or they would be scientists/mathematicians and what not. - Danaa
I am not talking about "mystery" connections -- I am talking about well-documented *factual* connections of the type that the mainstream media often suppress. One needs effective conventions for collecting, expressing, correlating and drawing inferences from those facts. - Sean McBride
Ah, here you go again, Sen - you said 'to do it "right""? why? I am not proposing to do a Glenn greenwald....it has to just be "right enough to convince" - at least to my mind. So, back to my example, I just need a quick connection between Kagan and Hillary - like they were both out to dinner together, or one funded the other to do something. Not some deep connection like skull-and-bones. I guess a connection to spouse would be good too - like Nuland used to work for Clinton. - Danaa
For instance: is it useful to know that Victoria Nuland is the wife of Robert Kagan? And that Robert Kagan, with William Kristol, was a cofounder of the PNAC? And that the PNAC was the key ringleader of the Iraq War and the Global War on Terror? What is the most effective way to keep track and make sense of related facts of this type? - Sean McBride
With effective conventions for structuring data, one can use machines to keep track and make of sense of millions or billions of important facts that extend well beyond the abilities of any single human mind or collection of human minds. Governments and large corporations already possess these tools and are using them to control events. These tools should be made available to the world at large, to level the playing field to some degree -- and increasingly they are in fact being disseminated to everyone. - Sean McBride
Chu brought up Analyst's Notebook, which is a superb tool -- one based on advanced methods for managing structured data. Anyone who is using these tools will have an enormous advantage over those who are not -- they will have a more accurate map of what is really going on in the world. - Sean McBride
Ancestry.com itself is deeply immersed in developing markup conventions for formatting structured data -- see: [Ancestry.com: Help:Formatting http://www.ancestry.com/wiki...] Families are one type of social network among many. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- sorry if I am overwhelming you with too much information -- I am thinking about these issues all the time and sometimes forget that most people are not. Use whatever methods (including traditional expository prose) to get your points across. You are a highly effective communicator. - Sean McBride
To make this as simple as possible: without HTML (a negotiated set of markup conventions), we would have no functioning World Wide Web. We wouldn't be able to conduct this discussion and share knowledge, facts and insights within this medium. - Sean McBride
The problem with human intelligence: it is relatively feeble, even at its best. We quickly forget facts and their connections within days, hours or even minutes. Machine intelligence is capable of permanently remembering any number of facts and their connections, and to retrieve them instantly. - Sean McBride
I have read nearly everything out there about 9/11, but I can honestly say that I can't immediately remember many of the important details. Think, for instance, of how many facts that David Ray Griffin collected in his books -- but which are now a fog in the minds of most of the people who read them. We need better ways for managing those facts -- and facts on every topic. - Sean McBride
[Smart Data Collective: A Quick Guide to Structured and Unstructured Data http://smartdatacollective.com/michele...] - Sean McBride
I can get the information I want and need. The larger problem that bedevils me is how to get even minimal but, in my opinion, correct information to masses of people who have been deliberately misinformed for a century. Time and energy are finite. One can either master markup languages and prepare databases that delight the engineer, or somehow develop media to counter the massive... more... - ChasMark
I myself consider Google, a single service, to be "the media" -- a channel through which I can find out what is really going on in the world (up to a point) on any issue. I haven't paid much attention to any traditional mainstream media outlet for years now. Google Alerts, for instance, provides me with the best news from all available sources. - Sean McBride
I would still like to see the development of a comprehensive Wikipedia-style website that pulls together all the facts, information and documents that the American mainstream media have systematically suppressed on Mideast politics for decades now. And perhaps a second site like it focused only on the Israel lobby. - Sean McBride
# For curious minds -- a few relevant topics to dig into: 1. Analyst's Notebook 2. Apache Spark 3. Big Data mining 4. Cayley 5. Elastisearch 6. Freebase 7. Google Knowledge Graph 8. Hadoop 9. KDnuggets 10. Powerbase 11. Schema.org 12. sentiment mining 13. Sunlight Foundation 14. text mining 15. W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) 16. Wikidata 17. Wikipedia 18. Wolfram Alpha - Sean McBride
An important facet of this discussion: marking up the facts in your head in a semantically consistent and logical way helps you to fully understand and connect them -- it brings much greater clarity to your thinking about any topic. It is incredibly simple to do -- often more effortless than typing free form notes or composing standard English prose. And those collections are usable and reusable by others -- including human beings and machines. - Sean McBride
See this: [Google Releases Cayley Open-Source Graph Database https://friendfeed.com/seanmcb...] - Sean McBride
I think the way to do it is have the powerful data sets sean's talking about. Once that data reveals good material it can then be separately graphed or made into a compelling graphic. - Chu_ from Android
And it can follow the tree concept or compelling image of the puzzle. - Chu_ from Android
One powerful graphic can be a Fountainhead for people to post on twitter Facebook etc - Chu_ from Android
"I myself consider Google, a single service, to be "the media" -- a channel through which I can find out what is really going on in the world (up to a point) on any issue. I haven't paid much attention to any traditional mainstream media outlet for years now. Google Alerts, for instance, provides me with the best news from all available sources. - Sean McBride" -- -- I use libraries. I'm fortunate to live within walking distance of some of the best public and university libraries in the nation. - ChasMark
World class libraries are wonderful things, and I've made great use of them, but they have been superseded by a vastly more powerful knowledge technology -- digital document collections. For knowledge acquisition, management, analysis and sharing, it's like comparing walking to jet planes for travel. - Sean McBride
We can now store the content of the Library of Congress in a small room, and instantly retrieve any particular passage from any particular document in it. We can data mine the entire content of the Library of Congress a zillion ways to Sunday, taking into account every minute detail of that content. Before long, we will each be able to hold the Library of Congress in the palms of our hands -- and eventually even connect it directly to our brains. - Sean McBride
Sean, about that library of congress business. Who would ever use that knowledge or why would TPTB allow mere ctizens access to it? you say it can't be stopped, but me - seeing how incredibly unknowledgeable, uninformed, poorly opining people are out there - plenty educated too - I strongly doubt that more than a miniscule number of people will be capable of handling great knowledge,... more... - Danaa
At a dinner party yesterday I had an occasion to encounter a goodly sample of the that uninformed and poorly opining of the highly educated humanity of which I speak. They all bought into the MSM;'s villification of Russia and the empire's tawdry tales of supreme righteousness. Not a decent, well formed opinion from among the lot. Where do you get your news I asked the 2 members of the... more... - Danaa
Humans are basically lazy - that's my observation of today. Unfortunately that laziness is what allows TPTB to keep on tracking, dissemination disinformation and PR. Which is why my interest has mainly been on how to find a way to INFORM people, -not just subject them to a barrage of information, but find a way to get them to open up to alternatives. - Danaa
''the problem is how to present it in a way that's clear to others, not just to ourselves. - Danaa---&------- ''The larger problem that bedevils me is how to get even minimal but, in my opinion, correct information to masses of people who have been deliberately misinformed for a century.''...Chas ----&-----''I think the way to do it is have the powerful data sets sean's talking about.... more... - American
Danaa -- this situation -- in which the mass of humanity is herded around by clever and energetic elites -- sometimes seems like it will never change. Perhaps the only way one can affect history is by moving elite opinion -- by reaching and changing the minds of opinion creators and opinion leaders. - Sean McBride
Am I speaking in an alien tongue? :) - Sean McBride).....No, I get it. but I think if you are going to use it for 'a everyman practical purpose' , as in informing people--you cant go too big and try to include too much. It will be too overwhelming to the average person. You could do the graphs like volumes of books....start with 'the people or elites and gov connections if that your... more... - American
Sean McBride
MJ (Mike) Rosenberg: "The world is sick of Israel and its insanities" https://twitter.com/MJayRos...
Perhaps Zionism is the problem -- and whatever ideological streams produced Zionism. - Sean McBride
If Ali A wrote that, MJR might think it was intolerant. You do realize that? - WJones
I realize that -- Mike is flipping and flopping all over the place. - Sean McBride
I have said it a thousand times on MW....'THE WORLD IS TIRED OF YOU!!!!'....cant say how many times it was actually published...lol - American
I must say that I am totally fucking weary of arguing about Israel. :) I think most people are exhausted with being sucked into this endless neurotic loop. If Israeli controversies don't quickly recede into the background of global, Western, European and American consciousness, I think there is going to be a hellacious backlash. We have much more important issues to talk about. But my... more... - Sean McBride
surely MJ would say because he is jewish he can say these things - like how blacks people can say certain things to each other. I'm surprised no one has floated that petard yet. - Chu_
But when have Jews ever hesitated to criticize non-Jewish ethnic, religious and national groups? Often with considerable ferocity and abuse? - Sean McBride
set; attacks by Jewish Zionists on non-Jews over Zionist issues - Sean McBride
That is a *huge* dataset -- and it rapidly expands on a daily basis. - Sean McBride
'But when have Jews ever hesitated to criticize non-Jewish ethnic, religious and national groups?' Jews hesitate when they talk about black people or other minorities (except of course muslims). But the Christian masses are always fair game. Weiss (and many others I've met) believe that the bond between Jew and Aftrican American are truly unique. I always wondered that and though why... more... - Chu_
Sean, I think that's true what you say - there is something among jewish people (not all, but certainly most Israelis) that thrives on attention, as confirmation of self-importance. I know it's true for israelis and many zionist "friends" outside. Not entirely true about many many Jewish individuals who may be neither rich nor famous. Not everyone is an exhibitionist and a neurotic... more... - Danaa
American - you keep mentioning your post on that trade agreement in GFTG, but it is not visible to me, since the group has gone private. Can you link to your post? (the link you gave before just takes me to RT0. - Danaa
Chu, I think it's funny that Phil believes that. That "bond" is based on a very brief time in history when some (not ALL!) jewish people supported the civil rights movement. many still miss those heady days - but to be a part of such noble cause! Phil misses that because he is of two minds about privilege and is really borrowing from the oh-so-waspy idea of nobless oblige. His soul'd... more... - Danaa
GFTG is now in the dead zone. - Sean McBride
The other reason for that "bond" is more obscure and touches on the wells of personal insecurity. The jews (this time I mean the "The") have not been the ones to come up with the art, the sports and the liveliness that has animated western culture since the enlightenment, though they have contributed and rode the wave alright. But there are residuals of envy - they are envious of the... more... - Danaa
What is the dead zone? - Danaa
Danaa, I have Jewish friends that believe it. I'm not sure where they get this from, but I've seen it. They think they are down with black people because their mom is Jewish and they share some sort of common enslavement history (Jews in Egypt!). Like an american Jew has ever worked the field for bread. It's funny, and not funny at the same time. - Chu_
Danaa -- agree -- note carefully that I was referring to Zionists (of the militant and messianic type), both Jewish and Christian. Most Jews are not neurotic narcissists. But Jewish nationalism has unleashed neurotic narcissism from many quarters. - Sean McBride
Danaa haved you lived in US for decades or more recent? Because you don't seem to think at all like any Jew I know. Of course it's refreshing, and you should maybe council American Zionist Jews back to health. The Atzmon Piece, I posted a chunk from Sean's clip says it's the Israeli in him that made him protest when he learned the truth. - Chu_
dead zone: when you take a group private, you lose access to fresh blood. Private groups tend to go stale fast. (But numerous Mossad operatives are probably *reading* and *archiving* the group.:)). - Sean McBride
more Weiss and Mississippi. http://mondoweiss.net/2014... 2 days ago. - Chu_
Chu - decades. Kind of like Atzmon. That's why oftentimes it's not just what he says but the way he says it that resonates with me. IOW, his mannerisms are are more than a touch Israeli - that "in your face" quality in particular. But more than anything when you grow up Israeli (of the secular brand) you don't actually understand "jewish" all that well. In Israel, we were generally... more... - Danaa
Moreover - and this is where I have a sense of kinship with Atzmon and with Abarbanel - we really did grow up racist in Israel. It was racism without guilt, the kind that didn't even bother to come up with an alternative to the word "kushi" when speaking of dark-skinned people.We - who live outside for more than a couple of decades - get a shock when one day, we look in the mirror and... more... - Danaa
I argued about that once with Shmuel on MW. Trouble is, Shmuel never really was a bigoted person and, growing up in the more politically correct Canada, he may not recognize the need for exorcizing what lies deep depp within one's soul. Atzmon offends Shmuel because of his impoliteness and "take no prosoners" approach. In other words by his israeliness. I, on the other hand, am with... more... - Danaa
An aside - I am fascinated by people who like to go caving though I would never go myself. I understand the need to come to terms with claustrophobia, but kind of prefer to indulge mine. - Danaa
That last comment was meant for the physical world not the spiritual one. We can be different in one vs the other, no? - Danaa
go scuba diving. dark caves are dangerous - Chu_
Do you still communicate with Avigal? I liked her take on the whole enchillada. Remember Avi? Too bad he gave up on MW. I liked what he had to say. He was telling everyone what was up. He later said he was Sephardic. Not like those white Jews from the north. - Chu_
'numerous mossod ops probably archiving it.' I wonder if anyone cares? Surely they would have as much interest in this site as well - and this is public. Reading some of the quotes on many comment sections wrt Gary Oldman, half of the comments would have ADL in a white heat. Seems like people don't care and don't feel they need to edit their thoughts. It wasn't a few instances. Even Rolling Stone comments were harsh against hollywood owners. etc. - Chu_
They scoop up everything and mine everything for future reference. You would be surprised what you can turn up when you mine the entire Internet and global telecommunications in general. (Or maybe you won't be surprised, if you have fully absorbed the import of Snowden's revelations.) - Sean McBride
It's laughable to think communication is actually private in online rooms. Snowden get awards from German Humanist Union, a prominent civil rights organization, for exposing the controversial surveillance practices of the NSA and its accomplices. http://rt.com/news... - Chu_
US lost to Germany. Phil is gonna have to write another article about how his praying that the US would lose - paid off. Only thing is the Nazi's beat them. Such a conundrum. - Chu_
Avigail - I do sometimes, but she presses me to abandon my laziness and do more writing. Which can cause me to shut down (it's the lazy not the inner zionist!), so I take it in strides. And yes, I remember Avi well. he puzzled me. remember when he returned as AviG, but with a different personality? much more mellow. We were told it's the same (I asked) -- but I always wondered. then the... more... - Danaa
AviG. Yeah one of his last posts (as Avi or AviG) was 'where's danaa'? He blew up at you for reasons I didn't understand, though he was a bit cantankerous. He has a lot of good comments, but searching his archive, it seemed to be corrupted in MW. Which was odd, but he soon dissipated into the bog. Think more about the tree project. If I get the time, I could make a FFMW2- call it the... more... - Chu_
didn't he say he moved to Canada? avi - something related to photography. I forgot - Chu_
Avi comment: Though Arabic was the original language of my family, assimilation into the Ashkenazi-dominated culture in Israel forced all Arab Jews (i.e. Mizrahi Jews and Sephardic Jews) to change their names and forget the language of their origin and use Hebrew as the only language. This alienated entire generations as children were ashamed when their parents spoke to them in any... more... - Chu_
Yes, it's funny about AviG. the original Avi blew up at me for a completely innocuous post that actually complemented him. This happened after we gang tagged on eee who, between the two of us, was outed as a "failed oleh" (gone there, lived for a while, couldn't acclimate or Israeli girls would have nothing to do with him, returned to US or canada, and has been over-compensating ever... more... - Danaa
Chu, it's a good idea to start a FF dedicated to the "tree'. It's a good medium to start collecting the data. And I agree that the images can come later - first thing is to get the information on the first branches. The danger will be tangents. I am willing to help you organize the tree into branches, come up with a good sorting guidelines. - Danaa
I've done some thinking about how to build semantic and ontological trees for social network analysis with simple plain text markup -- if you want any suggestions, let me know. (In fact, I've been working on the World Tree for quite some time.) - Sean McBride
Ok. Once it's begun, help would be key from anyone. I'm sure we could all learn something from a project like this. - Chu_ from Android
Chu: can you give us an example of a "tree statement" that you would like to express? Perhaps a few examples? Let's come up with the best way to mark up this kind of data. - Sean McBride
Sean, I would like to get started but I've got workloads atop my workstation. If you want to start it up on another feed be my guest. I saw the tree thread you started and thought to link it to the neocon FF that hasn't yet been created. And if that feed was a success, we all could certainly create many subchapters of other events, etc. I'll try to look into it on the weekend. - Chu_
WJones
<<I do not agree that “it’s a hundred times worse in… any other country you talk about”.>> ~ W.Jones <<Then you’re wrong.>> ~Hostage http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
<<Chomsky is correct when he says that US armed interventions in places like Vietnam, Central America, and Iraq have resulted in millions of deaths, millions of displaced persons, and complete societal collapses.>> ~ Hostage - WJones
<<If Chomsky were right that every country (or even the main ones) is 100 times worse in its human rights abuses, we might as well become Israeli patriots>> ~W.Jones - WJones
Hostage has a blind spot where Chomsky is concerned. - American
Hostage wrote: <<The authors failed to note that JVP... that Chomsky is on the board of advisors of JVP.>> I pointed out that Chomsky differs from JVP's position, and Hostage replies: <<"Chomsky is a member of the JVP advisory board." link to jewishvoiceforpeace.org ...I don’t think your analysis of Chomsky’s remarks holds much water. >> - WJones
Have you ever gotten into a debate with a hardcore PEP? This is the attitude and style of argument they bring to the table: Repeating talking points followed by citations and put downs. - WJones
To be honest, I find them easy to debate -- rather sitting ducks. Not as capable as Jesuits in the arts of sophistical argumentation. - Sean McBride
Chomsky gets extremely agitated in the interview. He is stewing beneath the surface. - WJones
Hostage continues to say that the actions of the US are 100 times worse than those of the Israeli state: "Many of the survivors are still refugees today, due to the total collapse of their societies and the refusal of the USA to pay reparations, even after the ICJ ruled that they were required." - WJones
Saying that things are 100 times worse in every other country is the kind of thing PEPs say. - WJones
Are all of Hostage's facts in that comment in order? They appear to be. They usually are. - Sean McBride
Hostage writes: " You haven’t shown any examples where Chomsky doesn’t support the BDS campaign." I can just about see Chomsky stewing and chewing at 0:56 when he hears “right of return” mentioned as the 3rd demand of the BDS campaign society, after which he says “and the destruction of Israel. The hypocrisy reaches to heaven.” That is not supporting the BDS campaign. - WJones
I don't understand Hostage sometimes. I guess everyone is biased. I see shingo is buttressing your arguments Jones. Good. Shingo: 'Chomsky and Finkelstein have done more to undermine BDS than any BDS opponents out there. There is not a BDS opponent who has not quoted Fink’s “cult” comment.' - Chu_
Wouldn't the full right of return in fact lead to the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state? Wouldn't that problem be better addressed with generous reparations? I am still trying to figure this out -- I don't have a fixed position. - Sean McBride
right of return should be on the table in negotiations. There needs to be. You can't kick out an entire group of people from towns and homes and stuff them in the arid hills, while Israelis enjoy the best real estate and pillage the ground water beneath the west bank. - Chu_
Wow Shingo has flipped completely on Hostage. Shingo is always on the correct side of the debate if you ask me. - Chu_
That the right of return should be on the table is one issue. But the issue at hand is this: if the right of return were fully implemented, would Israel in fact be dissolved as a Jewish state? I am looking for the answer to that question. - Sean McBride
*If* Hostage and Chomsky are arguing that a full implementation of the right of return would lead to the dissolution (destruction) of Israel as a Jewish state, perhaps they are right. - Sean McBride
Hostage wrote in response to my statement: <<Chomsky’s position that BDS does not represent Palestinian Civil Society>> "No if you are going to cherry-pick quotes, he was only discussing those who hope to destroy Israel per se."> In the video I posted, Barat read to Chomsky the BDS platform, and Chomsky replied "and the destruction of Israel", and said that the BDS petition was not... more... - WJones
<<"*If* Hostage and Chomsky are arguing that a full implementation of the right of return would lead to the dissolution (destruction) of Israel as a Jewish state" >> Hostage has argued that it would not. I have argued that borders could be redrawn to accommodate. - WJones
<<Wouldn't the full right of return in fact lead to the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state? Wouldn't that problem be better addressed with generous reparations? I am still trying to figure this out -- I don't have a fixed position.>> Hostage, Talknic, and I discussed how you can have 2SS and full right of return. The borders can be redrawn to have a majority in each section after the refugees return. THis is a major thing to remember because ROR=Destruction is a hasbara talking point. - WJones
The UN lines were drawn to accommodate a majority in each half. Land cannot be taken through war, so the UN lines are still the legal ones.Look at how politicians gerrymander districts. What sounds impossible can be possible. - WJones
'...if the right of return were fully implemented, would Israel in fact be dissolved as a Jewish state?' - Herzl's blunder of selecting this Jewish state, already inhabited by an indigenous group that lived their for centuries is doesn't concern the refugee families. Imagine if someone took over you grandparents summer cape house. You would still want it back because it was unjustly... more... - Chu_
Yes. - WJones
<<The BDS leadership has prolonged the armed conflict by insisting on the inclusion of mundane property rights in any settlement. That means the property rights are the subject of an on-going belligerent claim. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades happen to be a fact of life and part of Palestinian society.>> ~ Hostage. - WJones
"Hostage, Talknic, and I discussed how you can have 2SS and full right of return. The borders can be redrawn to have a majority in each section after the refugees return." Jones, i think there is a solution. But getting Israelis to leave these villages? Will Tel Aviv become Jaffa again? - Chu_
Hostage sounds like a hardcore PEP at times, especially with accepting Chomsky's statement that "IT's a 100 times worse" anywhere else in the world. (Greenland? New Zealand?) - WJones
perhaps he means in scope(100x), but that language he uses is one of deflection. - Chu_
How is it 100 times worse in Greeland, even in scope? - WJones
A just compromise would have to allow Palestinians access to the ocean, reconnection to Gaza strip (not by and underground tunnel) equal share of land and water resources, etc. - Chu_
(("Hostage, Talknic, and I discussed how you can have 2SS and full right of return. The borders can be redrawn to have a majority in each section after the refugees return." Jones, i think there is a solution. But getting Israelis to leave these villages? Will Tel Aviv become Jaffa again?)) Jaffa and Tel Aviv were separate locations even then, so no. When you remove the settlers from... more... - WJones
yeah. I agree with you. He sounds pep. - Chu_
The UN lines gave you this access to the ocean: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA_Gra... - WJones
I don't know if it is worth me calling out Hostage for being a hardcore PEP. He uses the Israeli nationalist arguments. - WJones
He is good at legal arguments and recognizes that the Israeli state brutalizes Palestinians with its military. But he brims with hostility at the leaders of the BDS movement, even bizarrely suggesting that they are not Palestinian, not to mention his repeating of Chomsky's points. - WJones
1947. yeah, that would work. No doubt Israel needs a rapprochement with their Arab Neighbors. Whats better, open relations with (some) neighboring states or a walled fortress state that is constantly under treats because they are the unfriendly usurper? Israel will inevitably have to choose during the next half century. - Chu_
They want the walled fortress because they feel very strong with their nukes, etc. It's like kids playing a war strategy game, except unfortunately Palestinian suffering is real life. - WJones
Re Hostage: yeah, I don't have time to read all of his comments (or much at MW), but what you say fits what I have recently read (from what you've posted). Shingo has been there from the beginning and he doesn't stand down from any argument. i was surprised to see his continued argument with Hostage. - Chu_
Palestinians, and arabs, are part of their war games. They don't exist in through Zionist colored lenses. Have you ever seen The Gatekeepers? Great film - Chu_
<<The [BDS] call to action was based upon the failure of the international community to take action on the ICJ advisory opinion. But it was based upon resolution 62 and 73 armistice lines and resolution 242 and 338 withdrawal and termination of belligerent claims.>> ~Hostage. ______________ Hostage is saying that Palestinians' claims to their property are a "belligerent claim". That... more... - WJones
What does Hostage want as a just solution? - Chu_
Next Hostage tries to follow the Israeli line and say that refugees' kids dont count as refugees. So after a few generations justice get denied. Then Hostage hides behind his "suck it up" defense, pointing out that his car was in an accident with a person who cant pay for it. - WJones
Look how Chomsky chews and stews when he is asked about the BDS Petition. For many people who have been raised in Israeli nationalism, even the word "Palestinian" sets off alarms. - WJones
<<What does Hostage want as a just solution?>> I assume he wants the same thing the Liberal Zionists, J Street, and Chomsky want the 1967 borders, perhaps with land swaps, and small financial compensation for refugees. The only reason Chomsky gets more flack is because he is outspoken on the human rights issues. - WJones
<<" the point you two are deliberately missing is that diaspora Palestinian warmongers are just the other side of the same coin. International law doesn’t favor either side ">> LOL. Typical - WJones
ask him if the moment comes up what he sees as just. It would be interesting for a straight answer on this. - Chu_
I have had two (friendly) knock down and drag outs with Hostage----one over Chomsky and one over the fact that "no matter what the law says", the law "isnt being enforced or implemented'' So no matter how many laws he drags out they are useless if someone doesnt use them. But he just keep citing law after law as if the law was the cure for I/P...its no cure if no one uses it or prevents others from using it. - American
Chu_ why would it be interesting to hear Hostage say that he wants FInkelstein's solution? He has basically said it in that comment section I quoted. He talks about the "international consensus" being the answer, basically repeating Finkelstein. - WJones
Oh, ok Jones. I thought you were speculating on what Hostage sees as a just solution. - Chu_
Just search Hostage's comment section in his profile for "international consensus". That's Finkelstein's buzz word for what liberal Zionists ask. - WJones
Hostage wants to keep going at it: http://mondoweiss.net/2014... - WJones
Hostage is a lawyer and he speaks as one. That means that his respect for law is absolute. Justice becomes something that' could have animated the ;aw, but is, in the end, incidental. Do what you can is the motto, and one of the very few things one CAN do is to make laws. To be fair to hostage, enforcement is not his specialty - for him "carry out the law" is the be all and end all.... more... - Danaa
Example - Hostage is very keen on Abbas going to the ICC - demand freedom and existence of Palestine. It's in the law, right? but this does not take into account the pressures Abbas - or any other palestinian leader - live under. israel can just declare a financial embargo and that would be it. - Danaa
The law I know something about is patent law. This is where I learnt something very important - a Patent, no matter how well written and how often upheld - is only as good as the will to enforce it. And that gives a huge advantage to those with the deepest pockets. Nothing illustrated to me more clearly the fundamental limitations of Western law as Patent Law. it is there for them that... more... - Danaa
An aside - Hostage is also quite knowledgeable about the talmud - he corrected and explicated things to me many times. For which I was grateful. I may be biased though - sometimes I like an argument for argument's sake. can't always go against those buried genes as much as one might like to... - Danaa
You are not wrong, however when it comes to the law on the right of return, Hostage and Finkelstein want to downplay it, and basically try to say that the refugees should or would not return. - WJones
Must resist urge to debate Hostage... Must resist urge to debate Hostage... - WJones
Re Hostage and refugees:...Hostage, Chomsky,Slater, MJ, every zionist of every degree and even non zionist base their 'position' and views/opinions on Isr and I/P on the BELIEF and ASSUMPTION that no one in the world WILL EVER force or 'use force' against Israel, 'the holocaust state' to make them do anything. I think they are mistaken. The populations of the world 'have turned" and are... more... - American
Wait until every other ethnic and religious group in the world goes "Zionist" for its respective self-interest. - Sean McBride
Whatever Zionists do, all other ethnic and religious groups can do -- and probably with much greater force. Zionists have abandoned any reasonable grounds on which to object. They have opened the door wide for an explosion of ethnic and religious nationalism all around the world. Few of these groups are going to be preoccupied with the interests of Israel. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
The Rav Kook Exchange, Part 1: ‘A Colossal Figure Little Known in the English-Speaking World’ | Rosner's Domain | Jewish Journal - http://www.jewishjournal.com/rosners...
The Rav Kook Exchange, Part 1: ‘A Colossal Figure Little Known in the English-Speaking World’ | Rosner's Domain | Jewish Journal
"Rabbi Prof. Yehudah Mirsky is associate professor of the practice of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies at Brandeis. Rabbi Mirsky studied at Yeshivat Har Etzion and Yeshiva College and received rabbinic ordination in Jerusalem. He graduated from Yale Law School, where he was an editor of the law review, and completed his PhD in Religion at Harvard. He worked in Washington as an aide to then-Senators Bob Kerrey and Al Gore, and at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and served in the Clinton Administration as special advisor in the US State Department's human rights bureau. From 2002-2012 he lived in Israel and was a fellow at the Van Leer Institute and Jewish People Policy Institute. He has written widely on politics, theology and culture for a number of publications including The New Republic and The Economist, and he is on the editorial board of Eretz Acheret. After the attacks of September 11 he served as a volunteer chaplain for the Red Cross. He is a member of the board of Ha-Tenuah Ya-Yerushalmit, the movement for a pluralist and liveable Jerusalem." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"The following exchange will focus on Mirsky's critically acclaimed book Rav Kook: Mystic in a Time of Revolution (Yale University Press, 2014)." - Sean McBride
i'm a little partial to Rav Kook for reasons I cannot say.... - Danaa
And: [The Rav Kook Exchange, Part 2: On the Origins of Religious Zionism http://www.jewishjournal.com/rosners...] - Sean McBride
Mirsky has an interesting mind -- I will take the trouble to read his book. The single phrase that pops out for me in these two articles: "false messianism." Regarding Rav Kook's "universalism": Mirsky doesn't spell out in a detailed way here what that might be about. I expect to notice problematic issues on that front. - Sean McBride
Rav Kook was indeed a 'kook'....."As a Kabbalist, working with the world-view of the Sefirot, in which the deep structure of Everything is a network of energies and powers emanating from God, he believed that the Land of Israel and the Jewish People are – along with the Oral Torah and the Divine Presence – at a deep level all one and all the point of contact between God’s transcendence and His earthly world." - American
[book; author=Yehudah Mirsky; title=Rav Kook: Mystic in a Time of Revolution; date=2014; publisher=Yale University Press; Amazon=http://www.amazon.com/Rav-Koo...] - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Israel Lobby Toying With Stephen Walt Again -- New York Magazine (Jonathan Chait) - http://nymag.com/daily...
Israel Lobby Toying With Stephen Walt Again -- New York Magazine (Jonathan Chait)
"Stephen Walt is a foreign-policy analyst best known for writing a conspiratorial book about how the Israel lobby has manipulated American foreign policy for its own benefit. A lynchpin of Walt’s argument is his accusation that neoconservatives, the central villains of his narrative, place the interests of Israel above those of the United States. (“Like virtually all the neo-conservatives, Feith is deeply committed to Israel … Given the neo-conservatives’ devotion to Israel, their obsession with Iraq, and their influence in the Bush administration, it isn’t surprising that many Americans suspected that the war was designed to further Israeli interests.”)" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Walt, now writing for Foreign Policy, has a new column assailing “the neocons' latest campaign for war” and “the neocons' all-too-familiar saber-rattling” in Iraq. Once again they are plumping to shed American blood in Iraq for Israel’s sake." - Sean McBride
Notice Chait's nasty and paranoid phrase "conspiratorial book." Most (really all) of the neocons who are pushing for another Iraq War are pro-Israel militants and Likud Zionists -- that is an easily provable fact. - Sean McBride
[set; pro-Israel articles by neoconservatives] we are talking about literally many thousands of such articles published over the last three or four decades -- most of them shrill - Sean McBride
1. set; pro-Israel articles by Jonathan Chait 2. set; attacks by Jonathan Chait on the "enemies" of Israel - Sean McBride
Where's Liz Wahl? She hasn't got a job yet for Emergency Committee for Israel, likely since her scheme with Jonathan Chait at RT was a dud. - Chu_
Who can forget that photo of Jonathan Chait with Eli Lake in his Menachem Begin t-shirt -- wearing the standard fake neocon grin. - Sean McBride
I should assemble a neocon photo album on wordpress for the last 4 decades. It could be a useful memento for US history. - Chu_
Seriously -- someone should really do that -- the collected photos would be incredibly revealing. - Sean McBride
Also: a photo collection of Israeli settlers in various states of messianic euphoria and ecstasy. - Sean McBride
there'd be to many uncle Leos in the family tree... - Chu_
Does ancestry.com have a software where you can put a photo of an ancestor into a great tree. That would be terrific for the neocons. Doesn't have to be blood related, but based on ideology, etc. (or what neighborhood of Brooklyn they're from) - Chu_
I think this is a fantastic idea - Chu - using the ancestry.com software. Too bad it costs to join. Also there might be complaints. However - here's the trick - use them first, then copy into a stand-alone (I know it can be done. Someone sent me a tree of ancestors taken out of the site. Unfortunately the format is a bit unwieldy. But I do really like the idea - instead of a blood... more... - Danaa
And this is one way that Sean's lists can be put to a really good graphic presentation. A list alone is dry, but having the illustration with a photo next to it could make it pop. needless to say, if anyone were to make an "idea ancestry tree" like this than protocols dissemination will be the least of the accusations hurled one's way. But playing ball is fun! - Danaa
Sean knows that I am partial to connecting things through the "grand idea" tree rather than mere physical associations. To me, that could be the next big thing in Big Data Mining. Can be used for great or for not so great aims, of course. but the neocon ancestry tree is a really good way to start since it's all out there in the open. We may not even have to go rummage through old spooky graveyards.... - Danaa
The Neocon tree will have Strauss of course prominently displayed, and some European offshoots like that bernard-Levy character (oh glee! I forgot his last name again!), and the guy with the maid (now there's something...). We can even split the tree off into two branches - the liberal and the conservative versions. Like wigs and tories or something. Then we can have the "illegitimate" offshoots, like J streeters. And an honor roll for the non-Jewish members. - Danaa
I've been saying that Danaa, I wan't to see Sean's list in action. The suspense is getting to me... But I've have said to Sean in the past there needs to be a way to convey these items through striking graphic data (could be devastating). Sort of like when NYTimes outsources one of these excellent graphics (you know that a graphic team took hours creating). Americans want facts... more... - Chu_
Great set of ideas here! - Sean McBride
Could make that into a project with many participants. I am sure we'll get volunteers, though the problem is, as always - someone has to put much time into it. You know, I've been playing with Google Docs for winding a way through certain types of what's known as "conspiracy theories". They have some good tools there and turned out to be a great way of working with others - anonymously.... more... - Danaa
Another aside - this could be educational too.... who wouldn't want to have a convenient reference to reach for when one is needed? - Danaa
ok. good idea. I like the concept. so much can be done with it. a online publication that exists as a model for others to grasp. Plus you could really add the final touches and make it sing like the 'offshoots' or spoiled fruit on the tree. excellent. i have friends I can check with about software that may help. Building something productive surely beats complaining about the status quo every week. - Chu_
"Building something productive surely beats complaining about the status quo every week." -- Bingo! That is why I have been urging Hostage to organize his wealth of documentation on Zionist and Israeli issues into a searchable and browsable wiki. Most of his valuable stuff gets lost in a chaos of comments. - Sean McBride
The only problem - Chu - the doing of it. Most of us here I fear are lazy bum commenters. if we weren't, we would be putting up our own posts. I know my time limits - only so much left over for "extra-curricular" fun stuff. But for sure i can wrestle away some hours here and there. Just don't think of this as a project for a day.... - Danaa
I hear ya'll. But perhaps it's a long time slacker project, with a little time each week, that can be laid out in friendfeed (or something commonly accessible amongst us) and then eventually transformed into the correct media imagery. But Sean mentioned this before, [data visualization is the key to making lists (and complex collections of lists) digestible and understandable for most... more... - Chu_
sean previously mentioned analyst's notebook: http://www-03.ibm.com/softwar... - Chu_
more imagery from analysts notebook: http://www.google.com/search... - Chu_
wow, analyst's notebook: http://www.arnoldit.com/search-... still a bit cluttered but you can probably rearranged data to get the answer you need. Looks like a single user copy is anywhere from $2500 to $6000. - Chu_
Good stuff, Chu. (Analyst's Notebook is one of Paul Wolfowitz's favorite tools, btw -- but don't let that alarm you -- many smart people use it for all kinds of purposes.) - Sean McBride
yeah I looked up when we discussed this and you suggested it. Now I know how evidence can be 'cherry picked'. That's a lot of power at you fingertips. - Chu_
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Fear of anti-semitism accusation did not stop Presbyterians from witnessing occupation - http://mondoweiss.net/2014...
Why divestment passed the Presybterian church: Opponents of the divestment proposal wore t-shirts saying, "Love us, don't leave us!" And the opposition arguments heard again and again were threats that the adoption of the allegedly "anti-Semitic" proposal would anger and alienate the U.S. Jewish community from the Church. Not one argument was heard in defense of the merits of their position. Barbara Harvey reports
"Love us, don't leave us!".....they arent lovable. - American
I just posted this comment on Mondoweiss: - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT Why do so many Jewish Zionists demand lavish expressions of "love," devotion and adoration from the rest of the world? One sees this pattern pop up all the time in Zionist rhetoric. - Sean McBride
It is not enough for them for others to express support for Israel -- one must express that support with hot passion and weepy sentimentality. - Sean McBride
Sometimes it almost seems like they are insisting upon being worshipped -- as if they collectively constituted the mystical body of God Himself. One would not be surprised to learn that some religious Zionists do in fact subscribe to this belief literally. - Sean McBride
For most us, of course, these emotional demands are incredibly suffocating and alienating -- and we would consider it indecent to make such demands on others. Most of us are quite satisfied with giving one another enough space to go quietly about our business. We don't need the melodrama. - Sean McBride
So: what are the psychological and cultural factors driving this behavior? END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Most of us tend to dislike people who *demand* that we love them. - Sean McBride
In the minds of some religious Zionists, "the Jewish people" is equivalent to Jesus Christ in Christianity -- the very incarnation of God. - Sean McBride
Interesting -- my comment above is stuck in moderation. It doesn't strike me as being particularly controversial. - Sean McBride
They are short-handed on week-ends...... check the paucity of entries today, even though much is happening. That moderation backlog is all the more of an issue given the newly instituted short commenting window. - Danaa
Probably so. - Sean McBride
It's actually funny how self-involved we become with our comments and gems of wisdom -- the world must hear our golden words NOW. :) - Sean McBride
Yes, Sean, a bit self-involved we all are. But then, if we weren't, we wouldn't be commenting, would we? after all, there are countless people who don't bother with even that much. Over time though, we should watch out for the inclination to become over-involved with our own pronouncements. however insightful, witty and appropriate they may be. I think there's a thin line there... more... - Danaa
To add to your line of thought: the psychologizer in me sees the issue as collective self-worship straying into individual self-adulation. No wonder emotionalism creeps in - it becomes personal, as in "love us or else you reject ME". Your point is also a good one in that it highlights the possible sources for that trait of narcisism that we often witness in certain members of the tribe,... more... - Danaa
It is dangerous territory, I know -- but the issue is legitimately out there -- there are any number of videos on Youtube which have captured Christian Zionists serving up the adoration and weepy sentimentality that have been demanded of them -- and the phenomenon strikes most rational people as being grotesque. The purpose of this culture (cult) is to shut down all critical thinking... more... - Sean McBride
Many Abrahamists confuse themselves with God -- and this is true among all streams of the tradition -- including Christian and Muslim. - Sean McBride
I think this idea needs to be built up on. And going to American's link to Atzmon, I think there's another guy who sees some things clearly - the emotional wallowing, the 'give me love" threats masquerading as pleas, the hypocrisy of it all. Hoping that in the end, somehow this cry-me-a-river flow will sweep all in its wake. I understand Gilad's revulsion - once you see the... more... - Danaa
I'll tell you why it's dangerous, Sean - because it borders on the sacriligous, and not just for religious types and not just for Jewish self-worshippers. What Gilad has been saying - sort of, with me transposing - is that way too many jews outside israel have come to worship a golden calf, all the worse for it being just gold-plated, with nothing but cold old bronze underneath. I need... more... - Danaa
'' Why, that's not unlike the god of the OT''.....True and its not love they want. What they is want to be 'universally worshiped" ....and feared---just like the OT god. - American
Yes American, but there's the rub: why is the OT god forever complaining that he/she/it is not getting "the love"? may be because demanding love while inspiring fear is at the root of the worst abusive relationships. God demands unconditional love but resorts to endless threats and retributions in order to get it. but guess what, god never did get what it said it wanted from "his'... more... - Danaa
There are some fresh ideas percolating here about God that I am going to roll around in my mind -- "demanding love while inspiring fear is at the root of the worst abusive relationships. God demands unconditional love but resorts to endless threats and retributions in order to get it" -- that goes deep. - Sean McBride
Just to wrap up one more commentary around sean's point - not that it hasn't been said, but maybe it bears repeating - over and over : it is only the jews (as in israel and outside - the great mythical collective) that demand love and supplication as proof of support. Any other group of people would be delighted with just some alms of support - a few good words, a resolution, diplomatic... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- that need is a bottomless well that can never be filled -- the demands for "love" to assuage fundamental and existential insecurities will just keep escalating. This was the kind of thoughtful discussion I was trying to kick off on Mondoweiss -- but never mind -- we have generated some useful comments here. - Sean McBride
So where is W.Jones when we need him to give us the faith dimension? we who are without faith cannot possibly be expected to work this angle with any credibility or even with just the right words. I know i can't, yet I do think faith, and the people who have it, do need to be brought into this kind of discussion. After all, many abusive relationships were sometimes resolved with the... more... - Danaa
I think Avigail is going to say its a 'collective psychosis' ...thats what I remember her saying on MW. Rose said in the "Question of Zion", which I read early on trying to figure all this out, that zionism 'attracts' people who are paranoid and in other ways socially maladjusted, as in agressive or suffer from inferiority complexes and grab on because it gives them a 'vicarious' kind... more... - American
Look Sean, on MW it's near impossible now to have these kind of discussions. We did, once upon a time, but those times are gone. Doesn't take much imagination to figure that a few mal-inclined or just deliberately misunderstanding souls could hijack almost any discussion, despite the fact that there'll be some sincere and thoughtful comments too. Problem is, with the deliberately slowed... more... - Danaa
American, Shmuely Boteach, Foxman and Dershowitcz are perfect examples of that kind of 'psychosis'. I suspect MJ suffers from a version of too, as does WJ of MW commenting fame. Something tells me that had they been born pretty well-formed cheerleader type blonds, getting more love would not be quite so necessary - and in fact, may be a bit of too-much-of-a-good thing (OK, if you are french I should use Julliette binoche type as example. No matter. same point). - Danaa
neurotic is a good description....but every time the tribe loses something dont they just become more neurotic? I honestly dont see how this can be cured or reversed. I have recommened 'shock treatment' but 10 to 1 anything done to shock them to reality like clamping down on israel wont really bring them into reality---will end up being viewed as another anti semitic assault on jews and the world against the jews meme will go on and on. - American
American, yes, but that's why BDS is such a good tactic. It's a form of withdrawal of love yet without providing one good target to shoot back at. The trick is to go slowly, so that israel does not go into an all-out apoplepsy, endangering us all. Let them think it's ineffective. Let them cry anti-semitism at every little thing, every minor divestment by a minor group somewhere. Let... more... - Danaa
We would all like to ' be liked' by everyone probably--- but normal people dont expect to be liked by everyone much less loved by everyone....not being' hated' by others is usually enough for people. Jews have been fed a steady diet of hate by their elders---which means there is a horrible can of worms wiggling in their brains around ' you hate us- we hate you- love us.' - American
Almost everyone has likely engaged in some self destructive or destructive to a relationship behavior at one time in their life but usually they either see the light and realize what they're doing or get an ultimatum that if they dont stop it they're going to lose something important or necessary to them. So I go back again to the belief that Jews/israel needs to feel some fear..needs... more... - American
@ Danaa / Sean: "God demands unconditional love but resorts to endless threats and retributions in order to get it. but guess what, god never did get what it said it wanted from "his' people - it was never unconditional enough." -- When Israelis recite all their economic accomplishments, I suspect it is, in their minds, a proof of god's love for them (Calvinism works the same way).... more... - ChasMark
The T-shirt language -- "Love us don't leave us" -- is the language of divorce/family breakup; it's the desperate promise-- really a veiled threat-- of an abusive spouse. - ChasMark
I don't think BDS is that effective a tactic at all, Danaa, precisely because it takes so long for the message to penetrate. One of zionism's favorite memes is "moral clarity." In my opinion, it has to be made perfectly clear to Israelis precisely how their behavior is offensive; that there are consequences for those behaviors; that those consequences are going to occur right now.... more... - ChasMark
Abusive spouse -- or the girlfriend or boyfriend from hell -- way too high maintenance. Satisfy their every neurotic and insatiable emotional need or they will destroy you. - Sean McBride
Think Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. - Sean McBride
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