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Danaa › Comments

Sean McBride
Analysing Zionism: interview with Jacqueline Rose from 2005 | -
Analysing Zionism: interview with Jacqueline Rose from 2005 |
"The state of Israel was founded in 1948 when Zionist militias — with the connivance of British authorities — embarked on a brutal ethnic cleansing programme that drove over 750,000 Palestinians from their homes, an event known as the Naqba, or catastrophe." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
“But the strongest rage has been against the book’s use of psychoanalysis. This comes from people who are convinced that Zionism is completely rational, that it was the pursuit of a Jewish national homeland in the face of historic disaster—and that nothing else needs to be said. But there’s a lot more that needs to be said to understand why it won’t budge, why it defends itself with such fierce ideological and Biblical commitment.” - Sean McBride
"Reading the book it’s not hard to see why it sparked such a vociferous response from the Zionist right. Rose meticulously documents the way in which Zionism was from its earliest roots shot through with a “messianic” streak that celebrated cataclysmic redemption and militarised colonial violence." - Sean McBride
"As Sabby Sagall argued in a recent review of Rose’s book, “All the evidence indicates that Israel is immune to internal calls for radical change or movements from below. Change will, therefore, have to come from outside.”" - Sean McBride
Rose's was the first book I ever read on Zionist. - American
American, I believe I saw you once recommend this book on MW (Unless it was MRW who also recommends books...). So I ended up buying it and id not regret. Had lots of useful information for me. See? I listen... - Danaa
Yep I did recommend it, maybe MRW did too. I didn't read much about Zionism or Jews when I first got attached to the Isr issue, I was more into the politics of it on the US side in the beginning. When I started to comment on MW several years ago all the jewish centric and related discussions prompted me to read more about jewish history because I was picking up what seemed like clues to... more... - American
In regard to what I consider one of the major problems within Jewishness as defined mostly by how outside critiques of it are outlawed even by anti Zionist, here is Aztmon--->"" The popularity of my criticism of Jewish identity politics is well established by now.""..Gilad).......The howls over criticizing Jewish identity politics is another example of their demand for 'exceptionalism'.... more... - American
Two sets of interest: 1. set; Jewish critiques of non-Jewish cultures 2. set; non-Jewish critiques of Jewish culture - Sean McBride
Jewish nationalism (Zionism) is the only expression of ethnic and religious nationalism that not only enjoys legitimacy in the modern Western democratic world, but which demands and often receives lavish worship and declarations of eternal devotion. One would think that more inquiring minds (like Elizabeth Warren) would be bothered by the discrepancy -- but it is much easier to pretend not to notice the situation -- to play along with it. - Sean McBride
I am willing to bet that jewish critiques of non jewish culture out number non jewish critiques of jewish culture by about a million to one. When I was doing some reading and research on Jewishness I looked for some non jewish takes on jewish culture and could hardly find any--the ones I did find were done eons ago prior to WWII----the holocaust quashed any examinations of it... more... - American
How many prominent Jewish authors have engaged in vigorous criticism of the American government, European governments, Christianity, Western culture, Islam etc. over the last half century? How open have those authors been to non-Jewish critiques of Jewish culture, Judaism, Zionism and the Israeli government? Quite a few of them want the criticism to flow only in one direction. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Liberal Zionism Is Dying. The Two-State Solution Shouldn’t Go With It. | The Nation -
Liberal Zionism Is Dying. The Two-State Solution Shouldn’t Go With It. | The Nation
"In 1948, Hannah Arendt published an essay in the magazine Commentary—at the time still a liberal magazine—titled “To Save the Jewish Homeland.” She lamented the increasingly militaristic, chauvinistic direction of Zionism, the virtual unanimity among Jews in both the United States and Palestine that “Arab and Jewish claims are irreconcilable and only a military decision can settle the issue; the Arabs, all Arabs, are our enemies and we accept this fact; only outmoded liberals believe in compromises, only philistines believe in justice, and only shlemiels prefer truth and negotiation to propaganda and machine guns…and we will consider anybody who stands in our way a traitor and anything done to hinder us a stab in the back.”" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"This nationalist strain of Zionism, she predicted, might succeed in establishing a state, but it would be a modern-day Sparta, “absorbed with physical self-defense to a degree that would submerge all other interests and activities.” It would negate the very humanistic Jewish values that originally fed the Zionist dream. “Palestine Jewry would eventually separate itself from the larger... more... - Sean McBride
"It’s difficult to avoid the conclusion, sixty-six years later, that she was right." - Sean McBride
'' It would negate the very humanistic Jewish values that originally fed the Zionist dream.'''....There were no very humanistic values that fed the Zionist dream---that's another lie they tell themselves. - American
American, those "humanistic jewish values" are basically enlightenment values that jewish writers did much to appropriate as something "sort of" jewish. Of course, Talmudic text has some good passages, and there was humanism in the words attributed, in particular, to Hillel. Alas, the "good stuff" and/or "wise stuff' is buried in the Talmudic exhortations and deliberations around how to... more... - Danaa
The Talmud is like the Koran in many ways - you read into it what you want and pick out of it what you want. As for the rest of the "Jewish values" I think they mean family values and emphasis on education. In other words, Chinese values. OK< with one exception - argumentation - there's a great jewish value for you. Wanna have it? it's for sale, you know.... - Danaa
Anyways, you are right about it being high time to start calling out this "Jewish values" shtick. I would however assume the writer was just as careless as most. Time for some serious deconstruction! - Danaa
The interesting project will be to separate out those Jewish values that revolve around Jewish ethnic nationalist self-interest from those that don't. Mainstream Judaism has already been completely swallowed and absorbed by Zionism (Jewish ethnic nationalism). - Sean McBride
If life is mostly about the pursuit of one's ethnic nationalist self-interest -- which is the aggressive and relentless message of Zionism -- then we will be in a real mess. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
First impressions of the new Mondoweiss
A step backwards. The 100 most recent comments is still not working. Mark and copy is gone. The edit button for comments is gone. - Sean McBride
Too much emphasis on cosmetic changes -- not enough attention to upgrading basic communications protocols to 2014 standards. Apparently the designers of the new system aren't familiar with the revolution in social media platforms -- they are far behind the curve. - Sean McBride
Thank God I can filter Mondoweiss through Friendfeed -- to add the important features that are missing. - Sean McBride
100 recent comments gone. Was this intentional. A way to limit the skirmishes between comments. - Chu_
However -- we still need to give Mondoweiss some time to fix the inevitable bugs which accompany major changes like this. - Sean McBride
What is Mark and copy? - WJones
"The edit button for comments is gone." A slow death. I wonder if they will actually ban comments altogether. - WJones
When you mark/select, copy and paste text, you need to be able to see what you are marking/selecting through a color contrast. - Sean McBride
The elimination of the 100 recent comments is probably gone deliberately, as has the side bar showing comments on threads (a common feature in many platforms). I doubt it'll return. The idea is to hide, not highlight comments. This little party is over, and the sooner commenters on MW realize it the better. Too bad but perhaps the loss might wake up enough people to the fact that if... more... - Danaa
If you want those from among the majority of commenters on MW who are jewish (and I maintain - without proof, of course) that they are, whether people like it or not, the forum or the FF thread has to be started and run by someone jewish. That's just the way it is. otherwise they won't come. - Danaa
Which thread is the one where most complaints about the new MW are lodged? any in particular? - Danaa
WJones, a slow death indeed. They are trying to strangle the comments, reducing them to a trickle. I believe this is deliberate. - Danaa
If many other commentors had a serious urge to talk more than what is offered, some of them they would have come to FF. We have advertised it enough. Danaa and Sean: put the MW FF URL in your MW Profile, like I did, in case you haven't already. That's how WeAreOne found us. - WJones
I don't know of many other forums about the IP Issue besides MW on FF and the MW Comment Section. I PMed Sean and Chu about one Section that I've frequented on a Christan Forum that has discussed it. - WJones
((WJones, a slow death indeed. They are trying to strangle the comments, reducing them to a trickle. I believe this is deliberate.)) Seafoid likes the Comments Section. His writings are fun often. - WJones
I thought Hostage was complaining about the Comments Section because I was discussing Chomsky so much with him. But then he said that the killing of the Comments Section was actually a main factor in him wanting to leave. - WJones
I know there are liberals who complain about the Comments Section, but I think that they probably feel this way not just about the Comments, but about much of the site too. After all, L.Proyect thought that Annie was being antisemitic in the comments , and yet that Phil allows the Comments section to continue to be so. Yet Annie herself is a regular writer on MW, so it's not really just the Comment Section that must bother them. - WJones
One weird phenomenon is how some people like MJR can be so outspoken on the issue and yet claim that Ali A. is racist just because Ali A uses the word "Zionists" in his criticisms of them. - WJones
The most likely explanation is that Phil wants open discussion about many sides of the issue, but the site is under strong emotional and verbal pressure from Israeli nationalists. So a few of the other editors are taking steps to gradually wind down the comments section. The main question is whether they will end it altogether. There is not much more they can do to kill it. It seems... more... - WJones
I do not like the new format doesnt 'pop' any headlines and its too much trouble to go to the different sections for articles. I think maybe Jones is right and they are winding down the comments. I liked the ascending list of was more timely and you could see what was new .....and I liked the recent comments appearing in the right hand column because there are some... more... - American
WJones, American, Sean, check my comment under the "New Comments" thread - in an answer to keith. I was trying to put it out there, in case more people were interested in finding an alternative forum. The comment did not sit in moderation too long, BTW. My suspicion is that most commenters may simply not want to take the trouble looking elsewhere, or coming here. Yet, people who comment... more... - Danaa
I also think that people may simply be afraid of becoming too involved or bogged down in forums. On MW one can cut and run as one wishes. But if one were involved in bringing out some other medium, there's implied responsibility to stay involved. So people worry - what am I getting myself into, and all that. - Danaa
To close, and to entertain, here is my idea of the three elements that underle all human action or lack thereof: everything is an interplay between inertia, fear and intention. Intention correlates with ambition, greed etc - ie all that moves one forward (cf hooray for change!), fear is what holds one back and/or causes the human to retreat in the face of challenges/obstacles/walls (Ie,... more... - Danaa
Ok, so my idea of all causes for human action (and Sean, I'm sure will appraise me of just how unoriginal I am....) needs to be modified slightly to add another dimension - a fourth axis. For lack of a better word I'll call it charity. That is the impetus to act in ways that are in the interest of the larger collective, sometimes even to the detriment of one's own interests. We know... more... - Danaa
<<Feed-back please (assuming the thread doesn’t freeze)?>> That thread is going to freeze like an apple in an ice box. - WJones
<< the highlight is just a weak, urine yellow>>~ Marc B. ______________ Maybe Marc is using a Mac or some other computer settings, but I am seeing nothing even with my face inches away from my screen. - WJones
Guess what - the thread is still open to replies. Is it my imagination or are the threads open longer? I just posted a reply on something that's already 4 days old. Shhh.....don't tell anyone... - Danaa
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Israel’s information iron dome -
It is widely assumed that a free press should report accurate and relevant information to the population, and act as ‘watchdog’ of power in the name of public interest. The reporting of secret government surveillance programs leaked by Edward Snowden rekindled a debate in the U.S. concerning the role of the free press, and the
This is a great article. Huge amount of work. Much appreciated! will be very valuable as reference too. - Danaa
Sean McBride
tree and ritzl have complained that describing Hillary Clinton as a "war harpy" and "battleaxe" is offensive to all women
See the discussion and debate here: "Hillary Clinton just lost the White House in Gaza — same way she lost it in Iraq the last time" - Sean McBride
The claim that describing Hillary Clinton as a "war harpy" demeans all women doesn't make sense to me -- tree and ritzl missed the point of the deliberate language here and the main issue in play: the hijacking of the women's movement by feminist Zionists (who are also liberal Zionists). But I am willing to listen to opposing views from others -- especially women -- on the subject.... more... - Sean McBride
This could have been a fascinating and enlightening discussion on Mondoweiss, but once again slow moderation and the closing of the thread killed the dialogue. - Sean McBride
One can pursue complex exchanges here on Friendfeed in 30 minutes that may require *days* to develop on Mondoweiss -- presuming that one can develop them at all. - Sean McBride
Here is Justin Raimondo using the forbidden language yesterday on - Sean McBride
"ISIS: Made in Washington, Riyadh – and Tel Aviv" - Sean McBride
"The Sunni Turn took a fateful turn when the Three Harpies of the Apocalypse – Hillary, Susan Rice, and now UN ambassador Samantha Power – hectored Obama into pursuing regime change in Libya. In this case the US and its NATO allies acted as the Islamist militia’s air force while supplying them with arms on the ground and diplomatic support internationally." - Sean McBride
What astonished me was that tree and ritzl seemed to be more upset by the use of the term "war harpy" than they were by the support of Hillary Clinton, Samantha Power, Susan Rice and many other liberal Zionists for Israel's slaughter of hundreds of children in Gaza. Wow. - Sean McBride
Opinion in that thread is equally divided between those who condemn and those who support that language. But the debate barely got off the ground -- the key points and issues were left hanging. - Sean McBride
A key point I made: the views of liberal Zionists (and feminist Zionists) on Mideast politics are indistinguishable from those of ultra-right-wing Christian Zionists like Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. Tree and ritzl still haven't addressed that issue. - Sean McBride
If Danaa and weareone are also offended by that language, I would certainly pay close and sensitive attention to their concerns and possibly change my position. - Sean McBride
Using tree's and ritzl's logic, we would have to expunge dozens or hundreds of gender-specific common words from the English lexicon that continue to be used by both men and women to appropriately characterize *some* men and women in negative ways. We would definitely have to clean up Shakespeare, who viewed neither men nor women as monolithic groups. - Sean McBride
here's a solution - call her/him Billary-Clinton. I know a lot of women who backed out of the Hillary nomination to vote for Obama. If you had you're vote set on Hillary, but saw her ways during the 2008 campaign (she lost her the democratic primary all by herself) why would they come back to the table again? Sure they can listen to her, but there must be a better contender for... more... - Chu_
The intensity and spontaneity with which Hillary Clinton blatts out warmongering language indicates that this is who she really is -- a bloodthirsty neocon. Why are so many supposedly liberal women supporting her? - Sean McBride
Billary became the new money, with the help of aiding Zionism and it's pro-militant neoconservatism - even pardoning Marc Rich. Joe Klein later admitted to writing 'Primary Colors', which was a negative portrayal of the two of them in the 1992 campaign. They still have the faint whiff off shameless opportunists, and the data collected on them is immense. Hillary's problem is that the... more... - Chu_
'' tree and ritzl have complained that describing Hillary Clinton as a "war harpy" and "battleaxe" is offensive to all women''....OMG..please, not more pc identity politics.! - American
had to report this greenwald post since it speaks to this issue: "“Hillary is banal, corrupted, drained of vibrancy and passion. I mean, she’s been around forever, the Clinton circle. She’s a fucking hawk and like a neocon, practically. She’s surrounded by all these sleazy money types who are just corrupting everything everywhere. But she’s going to be the first female president, and... more... - Chu_
Even my wife calls Hillary a 'war hag' which is the same as saying 'harpy'....and she'd be the first to tell feminist to stuff their whining and act like real women, not little girls. - American
"War hag" works. Women themselves often use gender-based derogatory terms *when appropriate* and with regard to *individuals*. They are not attacking men or women in general. - Sean McBride
People who become too engrossed in rigid identity politics tend to shave off quite a few points from their IQ. It is impossible to pursue a reasonable and reality-based discussion with them. They're fanatics. The universe revolves around offenses to their group identity. - Sean McBride
I've never been called sexist, but I have no problem calling hillary anything that seems fitting. She's earned her reputation. And funny how she stabbed Obama in the back in the recent interview about the decision not to intervene during the early stages of the Syrian civil war. That's bad politics, period. But the Clintons are a dirty pair of muddy catfish. - "She called the deaths of civilians, including Palestinian children, "dreadful," but said, "Ultimately the responsibility rests with Hamas."" - Chu_
I take my clues from my wife on other females....she's one of those Steel Magnolias.....iron hand in velvet glove and all that.....she says if you have to play the female card (or any other gender card) as a defense or to win then you arent smart or tough enough for the job. Smart women ignore the gender jabs so as to not come across as a whiny female..which is what they comes across as if they use it as a defense or charge against their opponant. It doesn t help them except with other gender issue females. - American
Well, I don't usually condone name calling, but in this case that actual definition seems to be quite fitting :))........ Greek mythology and Roman mythology, a harpy (plural harpies, Greek: ἅρπυια,[1] harpyia, pronounced [hárpuja]; Latin: harpeia) was a female monster in the form of a bird with a human face. They steal food from their victims... more... - weareone
weareone -- "harpy" is one of the most mythologically resonant images in world literature -- and it is assuredly not referring to women as a group or class. William Shakespeare often used the term "strumpet" -- -- and he also painted portraits of the most noble and admirable women of all time. Intelligent people understand that there... more... - Sean McBride
Yes -- there are misogynists out there who often use language as a weapon to attack women as a group -- that of course must be acknowledged at the beginning of any discussion on this topic. We all condemn that behavior. The word "bitch" flows much too freely in contemporary American popular culture in my opinion. - Sean McBride
But if the words "harpy" and "battleaxe" generate too much emotion, I am willing to toss them out. There are highly effective ways to criticize Hillary Clinton, Samantha Power, Susan Rice and Madeleine Albright which rely only on gender-neutral terms. What I do think needs to be discussed, however, is the degree to which Zionism has hijacked feminism and the women's movement -- just as it has hijacked so many other movements and subverted their positive values. - Sean McBride
When I used those two terms, I was trying to focus on the *irony* of some supposedly progressive feminists rushing to the defense of the mass murder of women and children by Israeli and neoconservative policies. Identity group zealots don't do irony -- it's lost on them. - Sean McBride
I agree, Sean. I don't see any reason to use derogatory terms or resort to personal insults in order state an opinion. I usually withdraw from discussions when that begins to occur. - weareone
Golda Meir was a proud Battle Axe. - Chu_
As was Margaret Thatcher. - Sean McBride
I can't wait for the next 2 years of Clinton triangulation. Should be interesting how they achieve their objectives. - Chu_
With regard to <<the degree to which Zionism has hijacked feminism and the women's movement -- just as it has hijacked so many other movements>>, I doubt that I'd be able to make any contribution to a discussion on Zionism at this point. :) - weareone
For the record, I have no objection whatsoever to describing Hillary as "war harpy" since I think the name fits. Basically, someone like her conjures the same imagery that margaret Thatcher did - like a preying manthis using its "plant status" to trick its prey, there are females drafted by the war mongers - precisely because they are females - to better co-opt the female side of the population so they will not object too strenuously to whatever blood shed is being advocated. - Danaa
Were I to participate in these debates, which I don't because of the shortened threads, I would point out that male neocons are often referred to as "rapists" and "monsters". Yet, is there an uprising among the male population against the gender specific maligning, presumably in the name of all men? - Danaa
I rather like tree - almost in everything she says I find virtue. It's just that females have become too conditioned to have some kind of "gender empathy" sometimes to the exclusion of "human empathy". I can't even begin to tell you how often I had to correct women who, upon meeting me, assumed that somehow we might all be on the same page, just because some man somewhere was in the... more... - Danaa
I think Hillary's 'wipe Iran off the map' was a turning point, and the final nail in her campaign coffin. It's something that was hardly presidential, but she seemed to be willing to say it because more often the media doesn't challenge pro-Israel sloganeering. She was burned and recall how long it took her to accept defeat from Obama. All those pro-Hillary groups hoping her campaign... more... - Chu_
Hillary actually used the words >>TOTALLY OBLITERATE<< -- that's a direct quote. That is not the kind of language one hears from responsible American political leaders. - Sean McBride
I'd say Tree makes sense, her comments are usually well thought out. I think she may be reluctant to overuse a term like BattleAxe in the public sphere, as it may be become commonplace. But Hillary earned that title, it's not something you label any old gal. - Chu_
Totally Obliterate > Holocaust , Genocide. (and liberals defended her at the time.) outsiders from the US hear this and think they're all f'king mad Yankees... - Chu_
Danaa -- great set of comments on language and gender issues -- I wish you had been able to post them on that Mondoweiss thread before it was closed -- this is a complex topic that requires many exchanges to sort out and make sense of. (I also enjoy and agree with most of tree's comments.) - Sean McBride
A sidenote on language and the spelling of "battleaxe" -- I often use [Google Fight] to resolve these issues: 1. "battle axe" 194,000 hits 2. "battle-axe" 194,000 hits 3. "battleaxe" 144,000 hits -- take your pick, I guess. - Sean McBride
Sean, my thoughts on these "gender vs human" issues are best put together in the form of a post, I think. Alas, I'll have to put them forth in a blog - because MW is not quite the right place for this - kind of O/T. I think I'll have one up and running in about a week - nothing fancy, just a basic platform to hash over some things that may be peripheral to I/P, yet are somehow relevant.... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- be sure to alert us here when you get that project up and running -- I look forward to reading your thoughts. Now that I think about it, feminist and gender issues with regard to Israel, Zionism and the I/P conflict are a huge and important topic -- there is so much to explore. - Sean McBride
My theme BTW on "women are first human and then women" is that like their male human counterparts, women are no better - and no worse - in being able to handle power, wealth and political influence. It's a human disease - the inability to handle "top dog" status. It will corrupt most, with just a few able to transcend it. Power, Nuland and Clinton act like shills for the empire just as... more... - Danaa
I'm am thinking now, after reflecting for a few days, that, for myself, avoiding hot-button terms that might offend women like tree and ritzl might be a good choice -- I don't want to get distracted and diverted from more important and substantive issues that are best approached in a diplomatic way. (My natural instinct in all situations is to fight for free speech -- that's how I am wired -- that is one of my hot buttons.) - Sean McBride
So Sean, what's a less inflammatory expression that could stand for "harpy" and not offend some? my linguistically limited brain is failing to about you great English speakers lend a hand here? - Danaa
Male equivalent to harpies? The first words that come to mind are bullies, thugs, gangsters, goons, gorillas -- I need to think about that. Regarding women as being no better and no worse than men in the exercise of power -- that's probably the way it is. But many of us were hoping that women in positions of political leadership would bring more compassion, empathy and kindness to human affairs than testosterone-fueled males -- that was probably too much to ask. - Sean McBride
Rand Paul referred to Hillary as a "war hawk" the other day -- that may serve. Not as inflammatory as "war harpy" -- but it makes the point. A hawk can be male or female. - Sean McBride
I like "war hawk". It's more gender neutral. Rand paul was smart to use that term. probably "harpy" is a term people reach for when they want to express disgust with the fact that a woman should advocate blood and gore, exploiting the image of her gender as the "softer sex" to shill for something that's everything other than "soft". I would put justin raymondo in this territory. The one... more... - Danaa
I am going for "war hawk" or simply "hawk" for now -- many people are unable to deconstruct the word "harpy" with as much nuance and depth as you are (you instantly got the point that Raimondo was trying to make). So better to avoid that pothole in most cases. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Has everyone been able to log in successfully to the new Mondoweiss?
"Most Recent 100 Mondoweiss Comments" is still not available. - Sean McBride
I doubt that feature or the scroll of recent comments that was practically frozen on the old site, will return. The emphasis is on de-emphasizing comments. - Danaa
I can't say I like the new design very much. It's too standard - like in all the other group blogs I frequent. that went "professional". The old design was much cleaner. But hey web site designers need to make a living, don't they? The part I especially dislike is the grouping of posts under "headings": US politics, I/P, Activism. That's it. Nothing about the world - does it even exist? - Danaa
Anyways, I think they should have a subject heading called "Jewish Angst", since the Lib Zios lamentations have a daily representation. Ellis can fit under that. - Danaa
Well, perhaps it's work in progress, and they intend to enlarge the subjects. - Danaa
I am going to give it a week or two to see how the new design shakes out. - Sean McBride
In any case, expect the comment section to shrivel into invisibility even more than it has. And no, you won't drive traffic here because that's not what people want. The only solution is to have a true mirror site that's run like a forum. Unfortunately, the good forum formats cost money to run and do require moderation. So it would have to be a labor of love for someone, and I don't see that happening. - Danaa
What people need to figure out is that the Internet is a multipolar and multidirectional platform which permits users to communicate freely in whatever combinations they like. Apparently that is a cognitive hurdle much too steep for many to surmount. They are comfortable being fenced in by one authority or another. - Sean McBride
Sean, I think dissing people for failing to communicate in a "catch all you can" manner is counterproductive. last I noted we still interact and communicate with humans. It therefore helps to try and figure out how to access the human comfort zone if conversations are to flow freely. Fact is, MW has a lot of valuable contributions from many sources. They prefer to concentrate on the I/P... more... - Danaa
Here's a fact: there are many posts coming from Palestinians. The blog feels it's important to give them a voice, and believe that there are many readers who come to read specifically those voices. Yet, the total number of comments on those posts is always much smaller than on the posts that address jewish angst. - Danaa
Ergo, most commenters are more interested in jewish angst airing. That's where the MW commentariat is. Just look at how many comments every piece on Liberal Zios pulling out hair (what's left thereof) - that's obviously what they want to converse about. Does that leave a whole bunch of interested parties out? sure it does. But this is not their blog so they can interject of Jews,... more... - Danaa
back to your comment Sean - instead of putting people down for not figuring out the internet, we need to accept that people gravitate to their own comfort zones. The commenters are comfortable on MW, and that's a fact. may be they like the bull pen. May be they don't want to spend time swatting flies. We can talk about why people are the way they are, but that does not change the way they are. - Danaa
Danaa -- I am not "dissing" them -- just pointing out that many Internet early adopters are easily leapfrogging over traditional publication models and communicating with one another in creative ways. This more flexible style of building communities of interest will eventually catch on in the world at large. - Sean McBride
One thing I noticed on MW comments: a few people put on thoughts and feed-back on whatever the post topic is. Some cheer and compliment (always a good thing) -whatever the take is. Others take issue with one point or another. But the conversation only really gets going when one of the zios pops in, like JeffB, or Hophmi or jon s. Conclusion? that's what many commenter-people really want... more... - Danaa
Sean, again - most people DON'T WANT creative new ways to debate. They want to rant, to vent and to have a little brawl. And they most certainly don't want to put in the work needed to maintain a blog or a forum or else they would do just that. Like-minded people who are on the same page don't need to hash over the same points since they already agree. - Danaa
Most people gradually adopt creative new ways to communicate (some much more slowly than others) -- that is why Internet technologies for doing just that have evolved so rapidly over the last few decades -- and will continue to evolve. I recall some people arguing at their founding that Facebook, Twitter and Instagram would never take off. - Sean McBride
i try to comment on the article and converse if there's a good topic with someone in comments. I occassionaly take the low road to trash some of the trolls - often they're so f'ing stupid, I feel I have to say something to them. Jon S always complains that is is over moderated, but good, because he is a complete annoyance and phony. - Chu_
Your issue Sean is with the fundamental trait of humans: inertia. You will not succeed in battling it since you are one and they are Billions. Some people care more than they are lazy. Those people start blogs and run forums. The rest who show up for the most part just want a comfort zone where others of similar viewpoints come to frequent the joint. This bar "where everyone knows your... more... - Danaa
Chu, you are one of the ones who do that - and kudos to you for being so well focused. I can count another 20 (who come and go over time). Can I count to 50? not sure. - Danaa
Danaa -- haimish? - Sean McBride
Seafoid digs at some, but stays focused on how Israel is collapsing morally. Shingo loves to trash trolls, and he's good at it. I get a laugh reading his stuff occasionally. - Chu_
Danaa -- many of the most influential conversations on many topics are now going on on Twitter -- by independent minds playing on a level playing field, with no central control. This is where many stories and memes break first. The trick is in knowing which feeds to follow. - Sean McBride
Sean, facebook and Twitter succeeded as did smart phones precisely because they cater to human reluctance to learn and do things in depth. Much has been said about the shallowness of facebook and it's all true. It's a place to hang out and show your pictures and check out your friends' pictures, that's all. It's also an advertisement for business or a hobby or an occupation - get a... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter are simply tools -- one can use them however you will. Many of the best minds on the planet are now on Twitter -- and they are bouncing interesting ideas and energy off one another with speed and force. Think of Twitter as the world's ultimate pinball machine. - Sean McBride
There are no "conversations" on Twitter. There is dissing, ranting, blog post advertising, opinionating and spitball matches. That's not conversation. Can't have one in 100 words. You can only say what your opinion is and perhaps try and direct traffic to a post you like. That's all. I have had a few conversations on facebook about stuff, with emphasis on "few". Social media are all... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- there are interesting conversations on Twitter -- you just haven't managed to uncover them -- it's a huge space. And Twitter conversations often migrate to other platforms -- it's all very fluid. - Sean McBride
just because everyone has a twitter and a facebook doesn't mean they use these media to communicate on any depth. I used facebook to get in contact with some people, but then what communications we had was done through e mail. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram etc. act well as "pings". Ways to say - hello, you still there? what's up? how are the cats? - Danaa
Danaa -- these are the Twitter feeds I follow: Do these strike you as shallow people? Quite a few of them are global thought leaders. Who have you been following on Twitter? - Sean McBride
I had zero interesting conversation on Twitter, as in "none". I asked for links and got them. That's all. I used it to rant against these Hollywood petition petty-coaters, venting my "true" opinions. one among many. Got to call them idiots and a few other precious names. That' not a conversation. Also my eyes just swim over the Twiter posts. I glance, move on, lose interest if nothin of... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- by all means use the tools that feel most comfortable to you. We should all do that. There are many ways to go about interacting with the world's information. - Sean McBride
Clue - look at these posts I just made here. can you tell Twitter is not my thing? does anyone want to keep up with this kind of torrent? kind of doubt it. But I need practice typing and stringing together sentences so I do that here. Suits me fine. Doesn't suit others, evidently. What else is new? I'm the same in real life - always trying to get deep conversations going at cocktail... more... - Danaa
thanks for the opportunity to lay out some of my thoughts simply. There, I just found another good use for social media - practice simplicity. Gotta love it. maybe some day I'll graduate from simplicty pre-school. Will throw party. Invite multitudes. Twit with all, wings aflutter. Need caterer! - Danaa
Right on cue, here comes pepsi. All suited up for Twittering. Alas, he just does not inspire.....but you do Sean. I really enjoy dumping on social media with you. Always making me think of some new reason I can't abide. Me, the anti-dude. - Danaa
Ba-bye pepsi. Good of you to drop in....keep safe! - Danaa
Danaa -- do any items on the first ten screens here strike you as interesting? What would be a more efficient method for encountering them? (It takes me less than 15 seconds to scan 10 screens of high-quality tweets -- and most of these are high-quality by design, by the deployment of smart algorithms to sort them to the top of the queue.) - Sean McBride
My biggest problem is that there is no clean, daily list of the recent news stories for the last three days on MW. That would be very basic. It's getting to the point where FF is a better list of MW stories than MW's page is. What is going on? - WJones
WJ -- I originally set up MWFF for myself because I wanted a nice clean and efficient interface for tracking the flow of new articles on MW. - Sean McBride
The more I comment in parallel on both MW and MWFF, the more I appreciate Friendfeed as a discussion interface. - Sean McBride
I am afraid I am going to be relying more on FF for MW stories. That's because it isn't clear to me how to check for new stories of the day - all the stories - on MW directly. - WJones
I saw the tree comment. Does calling Hillary a harpie demean all women? She's not your average woman, so a mythological being seems quite apt. - Chu_
Regarding tree's and ritzl's effort to police the English language, pursue the topic in this thread: - Sean McBride
'' As an essentialist it is clear that Israeli barbarism, the Nakba, the Holodomor, the Zio-driven neocon movement and even the crimes committed by the Yiddish speaking International Brigade at the time of the Spanish Civil war must be examined in the light of Jewish goy hatred, Jewish supremacy and the unique sense of Jewish righteousness inextricably intertwined with Jewish self-love. - American
'' Once Israeli politics are viewed within the framework of Jewishness, every Israeli war crime and cabinet decision is predictable. Moreover, if self-destruction and the Shoah are embedded within Jewish cultural DNA, it is impossible to avoid the devastating conclusion that what Israel is doing in publicly targeting a helpless civilian population is a repetition of the way in which Jews have managed to bring total disasters upon themselves. - American
That Israel and Zionism are a problem and product of Jewish 'culture'....specifically their victimhood and choseness undeniable imo. There is not logical way to imagine that a group of people could be at the core of or the sujbject of conflicts century after century after century without some cause. - American
Atzmon mentions MW in this article and I think MW is a good example of 'presenting jewish culutre' one way....while denying or pretending the bad part of that culture doesnt exist. Or pretends the bad part in the culture is only a 'current abberation', not an intergral part of the culture. - American
And perhaps the biggest part of the mystery of the jewish brain is that while MW, ellis and others do this---the bad part still comes thru----their vision of themselves as innocent victims is still there, their vision of themselves as a 'group' of higher moral creatures is still there, their self love as in teaching every child in the world about their jewish suffering in the holocaust,... more... - American
How do you feel about other ethnic cultures? -- Arab, Chinese, Japanese, German, French, Korean, Italian, British, etc.? - Sean McBride
Maybe this latest Gaza slaughter is making a few question their jewish moral myths---but they have a long long way to go to the truth of what jewish culture has to do with past and current jewish history. - American
Other ethnic cultures are not currently under discussion here---when they are I will address them. Feel free to put up a subject on the parts of Islamic or Arab culture that led to ISIS if you want to discuss another culture. - American
'Maybe this latest Gaza slaughter is making a few question their jewish moral myths' -and maybe Jews arising as a global power network, we are getting a window into what the future may look like. So far I see dark skies ahead. Seriously, when are they going the build the Third Temple (and destroy the Al-Asqua Mosque? There's even a fund raiser online for it. 45k hoping to reach 100k - Chu_
Many ethnic cultures are in play in contemporary global and American politics -- anyone who is truly curious about the world is paying attention to all of them. - Sean McBride
temple construction comments section: (messianic bible thumpers gone wild) CHECK the contributor's list. from 18$ to 50,000$ (18$ is a mitzvah! 54$ a High Priest Garments photo) - Chu_
If there's a third temple, does this mean animal sacrifice? PETA and ASPCA are going to be labled anti-semites. Get ready animal rights groups. you've been warned! - Chu_
American makes some good points here. The bad parts are there in the core of what's called Jewish "culture", though they are rarely stated (except in israel where they are shouted from the roof-tops). Sean himself made that argument to Mooser - that zionism was - Danaa
inherent in the "core values". Mooser objected strenuously probably because he himself feels he shed that part so why should he be made to offer penance for that of which he feels not guilty? - Danaa
To me, the trouble - the cognitive dissonance within the jewish culture - is there in large part because of tribalism. In this sense, we are likely to see similar dynamics playing out in other religions and cultures. The Indian one for example, or the Chinese. Those too believe in their own inherent superiority though they don't call it choseness. The difference is that the Chinese and... more... - Danaa
The conflict between tribal values, which often include cultural outlook and allegiance, and the universal values that are part of the "melting pot" concept is always there in America. Diversity is prized but a certain homogeneity is expected. If jewish people were like any other immigrant group in America and if Israel didn't exist, there would still be this tension, but it would be... more... - Danaa
American made another good allusion, though this is probably not the place for it. Islam does offer a reasonably good analogy - at least on one level. Radical jihadism is indeed an inherent "core" value in Islam. IT can be and has been interpreted more spiritually by many muslim communities (indeed the vast majority) but for those who want some kind of a fundamentalist entity, be it a... more... - Danaa
pepsi, please read my posts to the end - -if you would - I can't always make my arguments through one-liners. - Danaa
pepsi, if you are going to hurl silly things at me like "covering for Mooser", then I can't converse with you, can I? I graduated from kindergarten sometime ago (whether successfully or not is another story....) and the battle of the spit-balls was never one of my favorites. - Danaa
have a normal dialogue, even if it's confrontational, pepsi. The shots you make always seem to get deleted, so try and dialogue. but maybe sean is not going to let that happen. - Chu_
Amer:"That Israel and Zionism are a problem and product of Jewish 'culture'....specifically their victimhood and choseness undeniable imo." - I agree. and Jewishness seems to be higher than Judaism & Zionism- (the old vs new stuff is getting stale) Jewishness has to account for the mess of their Jewish state without blaming Europe or world history at this point in time,... more... - Chu_
pepsi - you are just too boring. Ever heard of something called "substance"? you never make a point, just hurls silly comments, though you did graduate to first grade, I see. Your comments should be deleted due to pointlessness - it's white noise. - Danaa
Danaa -- my impression is that pepsi is mentally ill in much the same way that "Jason Beck" is mentally ill. One should avoid any encounters with them at all. No sane person keeps invading a social space in which he is unwanted. - Sean McBride
'' Many ethnic cultures are in play in contemporary global and American politics -- anyone who is truly curious about the world is paying attention to all of them. - Sean McBride).......I dont think you need to worry about our intellectual curiousity. And I dont think you dont need to concern yourself with all the ethnic cultures in the world until and unless they become a problem for... more... - American
American -- the Chinese have threatened to bury us economically, the North Koreans have threatened to nuke us, many Muslims have threatened to destroy us, Christian fundamentalists are planning to impose an authoritarian biblical regime on us, etc. -- apparently you don't think these are significant factors for Americans to take into account? Jews are the only strategic factor of... more... - Sean McBride
I agree with Chu that's its going hell. For 10 years I have been saying Israel is going to get worse and worse and it has. Mooser wrote the other day that it appears to him that Jewish leaders and a lot of Jews believe that they are some how 'failure proof" now....I have that impression also..and I see it as one of the delusions that Zionism has inspired. So I think Israel will go for... more... - American
I agree that all key indicators suggest that Israel will move towards greater extremism in the future, trying to drag the United States along with it. But if we overfocus on Israel, we may be blindsided by other issues of equal or even greater importance. - Sean McBride
I am fairly certain that I could get 90% of people to agree with me that one country whose goverment is ruled by 'foreign interest, not its own interest' in making critical decisons for that country in a critical part of the world---is a bigger threat to that country than the China economic threat or the Muslim radical threat or the christian fundy threat. - American
There is no bigger issue for a nation than having your government run by people who make decisions based on what is good for some other country...not their own. I suggest you review the Kissinger episode with Russia where the lobby got congress to go against his agreement with Russia on some core agreements very favorable to the US interest because they wanted hold Russia's feet to the... more... - American
Sean, I would suggest that if you to ''look at the whole world' in regard to 'ethnics' you should read Amy Chau's "World on Fire". Its billed as case against globalization and exporting democractic free markets around the world. Except Chau 'misnames' democratic free markets----which should be called spreading 'elite capitalism'. She writes about minority ethnics who control the wealth... more... - American
Sean, there's absolutely no doubt that Israel is a far more dangerous entity than the ones you brought up as example - what Fundamentalists in China? 1000 kooks? is China not dealing with them? as for North korea, what are they doing other than self-defense? where is the North Korean lobby in the US? what has China done to totally subvert US foreign policy> seems to me that the... more... - Danaa
I am actually with American on this. I do believe America is under attack - from within. I could care less who exactly are the members of the hostile group that's undermining presidents and congress and possibly Fed Reserve too, for all I know. Whoever it is, and obviously jews are part of that group, are allied with a foreign country, Israel, which sees establishment of a Greater... more... - Danaa
Gilad Atzmon is simply pointing out a key element that makes such psychopathology possible - it's not just that we are dealing with a tribe here, but that the tribe, as you often say, has gone messianic, and is getting closer and closer to the tip-off point. American is asking some good questions - what way is there to put this evil ginnie back into the bottle? - Danaa
Danaa, there is a guy you would like to hear (or read) if you havent---Reza Aslan. I am listening to him now on c-span book review. Brilliant job of exposing all the contradictions in every religion and separating religious myth from actual history and explaining politics of religion. He can tear up the 'literalist' who take their religious bibles and tomes literally. Brilliant guy who doesnt do myths and bs. - American
Where did I hear this name, American? I think he wrote a book fairly recently, right? I'll check him out. - Danaa
Danna he wrote 'Zealot' and 'No God but God' is a link to videos of several interviews with him...... one I saw last night was evidently a re run of one of these. - American
I dont have time to play thru them all right now but think the one last night was the one on religion of Islam and the politics of it. He is a very sharp 'analyst' imo..a religious scholar 'unhampered' by religion.....very rare. His analysis of radical Islam was illuminating.....he says in their minds its a 'cosmic battle' of good against evil....that they dont have any ' practical... more... - American
Aslan said also and I think I heard him correctly...that the only political solution to radical in Islam is to defeat the violent ones any time they appear while politically accepting and blostering the real or moderate Islam on the world stage. - American
I read Reza Aslan's "Zealot" a few months ago -- in fact, the Kindle edition is still sitting on my smartphone. Highly recommended. - Sean McBride
He also touched on radical jewishness or zionsim but I only caught part of that. The difference I see in zionism and radical Islam is first what they are based on----for radical Islam it is a ' never ending battle against what they consider 'evil'--for jewish zionism it is a never ending battle against the world as 'enemies of jews.' The other difference is radical Islam has peverted... more... - American
The between the rock and hard place of both radical islam and zionism as I see it is that if you dont 'put them down' they grow and attract others....if you do put them down it can also attract others to fight against being put down. So I think it becomes a 'management problem' have to first put the radicals of Islam and zionism down to stop tbeir slaugthering of others. Then... more... - American
American, thank you very much for this article. I researched a little further because I was interested in Atzmon's analysis of the perspective of those who consider themselves "progressive Jews," and found this comment on his interview with an editor of MW :<< It seems to me that once again, I have failed to converse with a ‘progressive Jew.’ I guess that in spite of the openness ...... more... - weareone
<< I am increasingly certain that this gap cannot be bridged easily, if at all, for the tribal and universal are like water and oil>>............... This quote expresses it perfectly, imo. - weareone
"" I guess that the difficulties involved in resolving the tension between the universal and the tribal explains why so many progressive Jews prefer to operate in intellectual, ideological and political exclusive ‘Jews only’ cells where these questions are never raised, never asked, and never answered>> Atzmon).......I have asked and brought this up a hundred times on MW---that most... more... - American
<<).......I have asked and brought this up a hundred times on MW---that most Jews WILL NOT ask themselves the questions ABOUT THEMSELVES that actually matter. >>........ I agree, but I'm just wondering---then why keep asking the question? I'm asking sincerely, because it seems that most Jews are not willing to do that type of internal work. So if they choose tribalism over universalism,... more... - weareone
'' then why keep asking the question? ...wao) ...Out of frustration I guess. - American
Amy Chau's "World on Fire". - thanks. never read this. I didn't know Ethnic Chinese were in such great control of the Philiipines and Indonesian economies. [In the Philippines Chua explains, the Chinese Filipino is 1% of the population but controls 60% of the economy, with the result being envy and bitterness on the part of the majority against the Chinese minority—in other words, an... more... - Chu_
American, imo,this focus on the Jewish psyche distracts from truly important issues, such as Palestinian sovereignty and reclaiming US sovereignty. The success of these sovereignty movements is not dependent upon Jews understanding or "getting it." - weareone
wao)...yea it does distract. And you're right, their getting it wont have anything to do with ending I/P. I think the reason we go off into discussions of the jewish psyche is because 99% of what we see and read re israel by Jews--who are the ones who write about it most---is about themselves and Jewishness re I/P. - American
Exactly! I now make a conscious attempt to obtain information from sites that provide many different perspectives or visit multiple sites with different focuses. It takes a little more time, but it has been well worth it. - weareone
Sean McBride
Hollywood stars sign petition in support of Israel - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz -
Hollywood stars sign petition in support of Israel - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz
"Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, Minnie Driver and Kelsey Grammer among celebrities who voiced their criticism against the "singling out" of Israel during Gaza war." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"The CCFP, whose members range from former NBC Entertainment co-chair Ben Silverman to Jody Gerson, co-president of Sony/ATV Music Publishing, are major power brokers in Hollywood who have resisted rallying its star-studded fleet for public statements until now. Rather, as Operation Protective Edge drew slews of celebrities expressing political views on social media, CCFP focused its energy on what it describes as "educating" Israel’s outspoken critics." - Sean McBride
"The organization successfully campaigned to have Rihanna withdraw her “Free Palestine” Instagram photo and Selena Gomez to recant a similar post. Other attempts didn’t elicit the same response. Cruz and Barden’s “clarification” reinforced their opposition to Israel’s military and wasn’t deemed a retraction. They merely eschewed being labeled anti-Semitic." - Sean McBride
"This campaign, started no doubt amidst criticism that Hollywood’s Israel supporters had stayed silent amidst growing pro-Palestinian support, rapidly took off as CCFP’s advisory board members, along with other prominent industry leaders, began reaching out to their friends and associates." - Sean McBride
"“We are heartened to have received such an enormous response from within the industry -- from artists to producers, agents, attorneys, managers, and industry executives -- which is gratifying especially as we witness the disturbing growth of anti-Semitism around the globe. We fully expect the list of signatories to continue to grow," says David Renzer, CCFP co-founder and chairman of... more... - Sean McBride
The operations of the Israel lobby (and the Jewish lobby) within Hollywood are being fully exposed to public view. - Sean McBride
Hollywood stars who *didn't* sign the petition may pay a price. - Sean McBride
I think we - as in those who are active - should start an on-line petition to boycott all the signers of this pathetic petition. Call them supporters of child murderers and fascist sympathizers and a few other names that stick. Then make sure to tell all friends and family and colleagues why you refuse to see their movies or idiotic award ceremonies. So where is the best place to get such a petition going? - Danaa
Here is the full list of signatories to date: http://www.creativecommunityfo... You would think that the creators and members of this organization would be greatly concerned that it is overwhelmingly Jewish -- and that many prominent non-Jews in Hollywood haven't joined them. CCFP gives the impression that Israel is increasingly isolated in the world. - Sean McBride
# some names that are *not* on the list 1. Al Pacino 2. Amy Adams 3. Angelina Jolie 4. Ben Affleck 5. Brad Pitt 6. Bradley Cooper 7. Cate Blanchett 8. Christian Bale 9. Denzel Washington 10. George Clooney 11. Gwyneth Paltrow 12. James Cameron 13. Jennifer Lawrence 14. Johnny Depp 15. Jude Law 16. Kate Winslet 17. Leonardo DiCaprio 18. Mark Wahlberg 19. Martin Scorsese 20. Matt Damon... more... - Sean McBride
>>Bill Maher<< *did* sign the petition. - Sean McBride
Danaa, here's one place to start a petition-- Sean would be a much better resource for such things, but I would sign it and spread it. - weareone
petition - good idea. I think Hollywood and US Polticians are worse today than cast lead. embarrassing race to the bottom. - Chu_
Sean McBride
News from Ferguson has swamped Mideast news
There is some discussion on that topic going on here: - Sean McBride
Gaza? What was that all about? - Sean McBride
It's all about Missouri now, not Israel. - Sean McBride
We need to connect the dots. There may be more similarities then differences. Quite possibly the same "wizards of oz" behind the scenes. - weareone
The mainstream media seems to flock to a new story like buzzards to a fresh carcass. The media headquarters of these new organizations determine what is news and what isn't news - they only need to coordinate among the Media Execs. And this ice bucket water challenge is practically the dumbest thing I've ever seen by the media and a real red herring if you want to see it that way. How... more... - Chu_
Not sure if this has been posted already. I apologize for repeating if it has. "The Shortest Distance between Palestine and Ferguson" - weareone
thanks for the article. There are some parallels. both groups have been swept into the closet in a way. while many liberals want to believe the situation is improving in the US, it seems to get much worse in other locations. In NYC this last year, half of black men are unemployed. - Chu_
the main difference is that Palestinians are refugees who lived in all the towns where modern day Israel exists. - Chu_
some points are coincidental as Yassin says, but the more I think about the 2 situations, the less similar they seem. - Chu_
You're welcome. Yes, you're right, Palestinians are "occupied" and technically there is no occupation in this country, but as I mentioned on another thread, the prison/industrial business has been likened to a new form of apartheid for blacks. - weareone
Here's the article I was looking for: "America's New Apartheid".. - weareone
yeah, I agree. And many of the whites are headed for the prisons as well. This neo-feudalism is no joke. someone on FF (i cant find it!) just posted how bad it is. You get sent to prison because you didn't pay your debts, you lose everything, you start over with nothing. And it's happening right before our eyes. Congress is the willing partner to corporate wishes. None of them seem to... more... - Chu_
nyc is a great model for study. The stratosphere of rich and poor interaction everyday is incredible. Manhattan is like this kingdom, where the outlying areas are the surfs and peasants. Thanks for article. I'll read it later. - Chu_
National interest? you're right-not one. So we can't imo expect a solution from them. The answer will come through self-sufficiency, I believe. Another great article-- "The Globalists' Worst Nightmare- Self-Sufficiency:a universal solution to the globalist problem"-- - weareone
Sorry, I had to correct the link. - weareone
No more articles, I promise. :) Very true about NYC and probably most other large cities in the country, but it's really evident in NYC with Wall St money ever present. - weareone
wearone, chu, the similarity I think is on the individual level, in the way untenable circumstances affect people - both the victims and the victimizers. Humans react in certain ways to conditions of enforced hopelessness, whether incarcerated by walls or by less visible structures. Some are enobled, some go down an aggressive 'acting out" path, some channel their anger through the... more... - Danaa
Good points, Danaa. - weareone
I think your analysis can be applied to many different situations and cultures- any really where there are oppressed and oppressor. Hopefully, as the world is becoming "smaller" thanks to instantaneous communication, the oppressed/victims will begin to realize that their situations are not really unique and begin to join forces. I think we're beginning to see this in support for Palestine. - weareone
w.a.o. I read America's New Apartheid. A lot of it I knew but it was good to see it summarized over the course of 30+ years. I didn't realize the Welfare Reform Act of 1996 has a provision to a lifetime ban on receiving welfare & food stamps, which only applies to drug offenders, and not to violent felons like murder or rapists. The entire crack/cocaine deal was always baffling. With... more... - Chu_
Hopefully were moving toward a more just system. I see the tide has definitely turned between white and black (in nyc).- strangely, it seemed to have accelerated somewhat after 9-11. There was no time to focus on the domestic conflicts, we now had another foreign threat at our shores. And now that the police state rolled into town with the Patriot Act, of course they'll use it to divide & conquer with the haves & have-nots. It's what were all seeing over the last decade. - Chu_
<<Meanwhile you get people like Robert Downey Jr. and Quentin Tarantino glorifying coke and/or heroin use. So warped.>> I agree. The film industry is complicit in many crimes, imo. Another similarity that's been mentioned on other threads-- many, if not most, police departments in the US are either trained/indoctrinated in Israel or in the US by Israelis. (Not sure about Ferguson). Similar tactics and disproportionate use of force are used against Palestinians. - weareone
Here's an article confirming Israel's relationship to Ferguson.-"Israel-trained police "occupy" Missouri after killing of black youth" Submitted by Rania Khalek on Fri, 08/15/2014 <<At least two of the four law enforcement agencies that were deployed in Ferguson up until Thursday evening — the St. Louis County Police Department and the St. Louis Police Department — received training... more... - weareone
w.a.o. - I can think of another example of corporate racketeering. The Haitian Pig. This pig could run wild and eat off the land. But then an outbreak occurred in the 1980's and USAID (with the help of the Haitian gov't) came in to exterminate every last pig. Now Haiti had to import fatter american swine, which required their own grain and feed and medical supplies, supplied from the... more... - Chu_
Thanks, Chu,. I wasn't aware of this but read a little about the the importance of this animal to Haiti. It made me remember that sometimes the simple things, like Gandhi's spinning wheels in India and the pig in Haiti, can not only contribute to a nation's economic independence, but can be symbols of prosperity and freedom. - weareone
The eradication of the creole pig, wiped out so much money of the Haitian people. Also if you're ever curious about more american corporate rigging, check out United Fruit Company. They have created wage slaves in Central America (banana republics) since the early 1900's. People in Central America have gotten the corporate shaft from the US. If S. America really transforms into a new center of influence, surely central Americans will look to S. America for a better model for their own survival. - Chu_
Yes, I'm aware of United Fruit Co. <<If S. America really transforms into a new center of influence, surely central Americans will look to S. America for a better model for their own survival>> I certainly hope so with the BRICS nations now launching financial alternatives to the IMF and World Bank. - weareone
Sean McBride
The Double Identity of an "Anti-Semitic" Commenter | Common Dreams (Lance Tapley) -
The Double Identity of an "Anti-Semitic" Commenter | Common Dreams (Lance Tapley)
"Smearing a Progressive Website to Support Israel" - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"Like many other news websites, Common Dreams has been plagued by inflammatory anti-Semitic comments following its stories. But on Common Dreams these posts have been so frequent and intense they have driven away donors from a nonprofit dependent on reader generosity." - Sean McBride
"A Common Dreams investigation has discovered that more than a thousand of these damaging comments over the past two years were written with a deceptive purpose by a Jewish Harvard graduate in his thirties who was irritated by the website's discussion of issues involving Israel." - Sean McBride
"His intricate campaign, which he has admitted to Common Dreams, included posting comments by a screen name, "JewishProgressive," whose purpose was to draw attention to and denounce the anti-Semitic comments that he had written under many other screen names." - Sean McBride
"The deception was many-layered. At one point he had one of his characters charge that the anti-Semitic comments and the criticism of the anti-Semitic comments must be written by "internet trolls who have been known to impersonate anti-Semites in order to then double-back and accuse others of supporting anti-Semitism"--exactly what he was doing. (Trolls are posters who foment discord.)" - Sean McBride
"The impersonation, this character wrote, must be part of an "elaborate Hasbara setup," referring to an Israeli international public-relations campaign. When Common Dreams finally confronted the man behind the deceptive posting, he denied that he himself was involved with Hasbara." - Sean McBride
"His posting on Common Dreams illustrates the susceptibility of website comment threads to massive manipulation. As another illustration, he even audaciously tricked the white-supremacist Vanguard News Network, posing as "DeShawn S. Williams," a "Pro-White/Black, anti-jew."" - Sean McBride
"On Vanguard, where this African-American persona posted more than 1,400 times, he encouraged the malevolence of Frazier Glenn Miller, the neo-Nazi accused of killing three people whom he believed were Jews outside a Jewish community center and retirement home in Kansas in April. The character Williams was engaged in a comment thread more than 200 times with Miller, whose screen name was Rounder." - Sean McBride
"In a Vanguard post under the Williams screen name the commenter asked rhetorically, "Are left wing folks finally waking up to the jew?" He then referred the Vanguard online community to a thread of anti-Semitic comments on Common Dreams--most of which he had written himself under several screen names." - Sean McBride
"A typical DeShawn Williams comment might include: "Israel is a stain on the world that needs to be expunged once and for all." Or: "The jews are the most racist people on earth. Just look at their Talmud. They consider the 'goyim' (non-jews) to be cattle whose only purpose on earth is to serve them."" - Sean McBride
Sound familiar? - Sean McBride
"When Common Dreams examined hundreds of posts in this ugly charade, the aim appeared clear-cut: to cast a deep shadow on, and drive support from, one of the largest and oldest progressive-news websites." - Sean McBride
"A few minutes on Google, Facebook, and LinkedIn led Common Dreams to the owner of the email address, a graduate student at the Midwestern campus. The student also had made the same mistake by using a university computer that had the name of his tiny academic unit." - Sean McBride
"Surely, Beck's campaign has in the end demonstrated a downside to "digital diplomacy"--and a lesson not just for Israel. Beck went far beyond diplomacy into counterproductive digital warfare. Beck may have shown the future, unless defenses are mounted. As the ADL's Todd Gutnick said, "Any idiot with a computer can do something like this." But Beck is highly intelligent--at least in some ways. Think what a team of Becks could do." - Sean McBride
Comment: "this has JIDF spelled all over it in caps. he's following their public manuals to the letter." - Sean McBride
The tip of the proverbial iceberg -- these are basically false flag operations of the type that many pro-Israel activists can't seem to resist using, no matter how many times they are caught. - Sean McBride
Definitely a whiff of familiarity - - down to some of the verbiage. - Danaa
wait, so this guy created an 'anti-semite persona' only to come in with the handle 'JewishProgressive' and trash his other comments? get-a-life. that's a real disturbing (and boring) person. - and they are not going to release his name??? call him Jason Beck? for fear of his own safety from neo nazis? man, that is stupid... - Chu_
Chu -- you've got to go deep on this one -- it's big. This is a bombshell story -- and a brilliant piece of detective work and investigative journalism. - Sean McBride
Chu, that guy is not the only one masquerading as an "anti-semite". the idea is to use the comments section to cast aspersions on a site, and undermine its credibility. It's a well known tactic and using different handles to "play games" among different personas is also a known trick. It's one reason I don't go overboard to call people out as anti-semites or any other name calling since... more... - Danaa
first comment: "This article stems from complaints from Jewish donors about anti-semitism on CD. Ironic that they found a Jewish troll lurking as the biggest "anti-semite." I think if CD had the resources to dig deeper, they would find someone paid him for his work." - Chu_
Mossad psyops -- this pattern of activity goes well beyond JIDF dirty tricks. - Sean McBride
there was talk about bots on MW entering the equation to post random hasbara. The downside is that small sites will have to monitor comments, being unable to focus on the larger criticism of Israel, etc. - Chu_
Here's the thing - real, true blue "anti-semites" whatever that is have their own calling cards. They rarely come out into the open, usually preferring to hide behind one of their many other "antis". A tell tale sign of a potential false flag - references to "the Jew", dropped gratuitously. No self-respecting true-blue anti-semite with a mission would resort to such an obvious ploy and certainly not on an open board. - Danaa
Chu, now you are getting close - the purpose is to bog down the discussions, making them less effective. It's hard to produce effective arguments when one has to constantly swat down flies. - Danaa
Egregious example - I happen to believe that the [in]famous Syrian lesbian "amina" (who turned out to be a married white male who also slithered into other lesbian discussion forums, even becoming an editor) was an example of a false flag. While the purpose of that operation was not entirely clear (yes, any number of progressive sites, including MW, bit on that one) I always found it... more... - Danaa
Exhibit II - Pussy riot in Russia. - Danaa
When I see way out anti semitic comments my first thought is its a zio troll trying to provoke a blow out.....anytime you see 'death to the jews'....and similar rants can be pretty sure its a hasbara troll. - American
Check out the MO behind those twitter campaigns in Cuba and the now exposed false USAID trail. Those are the ones that failed. Note however the MO for the trolls - often relatively young people with interest in NGOs like "things" and/or alternative sexual identity patterns. - Danaa
Wow, Zionism and their lame-o brigades are potentially capable of ruining everything for their corrupt empire. Talk about killing open debate. What a bunch of sore loser children. “If I can’t have it my way, nobody else can” - Chu_
American, yes, but there are slightly more insiduous examples - bring up "The jew" out of the blue is a dead give away. use of too many references to "Talmudic" is another one. Real anti-semites just don't talk that way. Usually it's not the "Talmud" that bothers them, it's the power equation. It is rare that actual judeophobics have only that one phobia either. They will almost always have pointed anti-foreigner bend. - Danaa
Chu - you got it now - the "if i can't have it, neither can you" angle. IT's a big part of the more rabid zionist discourse. They know they lose on the open battle of ideas field so they resort to "guerilla" hit and run operations to ruin it for everyone else. Which is why I/P open discourse is so difficult for anyone who tries to manage it. The minute a blog or a forum becomes... more... - Danaa
I know about it. JIDF, et al. Funny all their dirty tactics, and the world labels them ‘internet trolls’. Sounds like a night-flower blossoming in the dark really. Mother must be proud of them. - Chu_
Wow. Thanks for the information, Sean. An online culture of psychopaths? I guess it shouldn't be surprising, but still.... - weareone
Good one! :) Thanks. - weareone
"Jason Beck" says he has psychological problems that he can't explain -- "tics." - Sean McBride
Jason Beck - And Common Dreams are offering apologies for this guy that tried to take down their website by malicious deceit. And they hide his name? lol... good strategy. Did one of the Jewish donors say they would pay double if they kept his name on the down-low? Liberal websites that enable this behavior will continue to have moral & political corruption (they are letting them win).... more... - Chu_
Look who is trashing MW. - Chu_ from Android
This Common Dreams story sounds like a few commentors we know. - WJones
And they hang out in a particular group, using the same language and themes as "Jason Beck." And they have relentlessly harassed this group, just as "Beck" harassed Common Dreams. - Sean McBride
A certain poster kept interjecting asking me about Kol Nidre, without the slightest relevance or connection to the topic at hand. Another brings up 9/11, again, with zero connection to anything being discussed. Those are NOT the signatures of any real "anti-semite". I am only surprised no one brought up blood libels yet. - Danaa
Danaa: interesting exercise: match up the words and phrases of "Jason Beck" with the posts of the people you mentioned. I'm sure you will find many intersections. - Sean McBride
An idea: may be FF was/is used as a training ground? - Danaa
Danaa -- I had major interactions with the founders of JIDF right here on Friendfeed several years ago when they were first starting up. But their scope is global -- across all media platforms -- mainstream, alternative and social. (Their = not just JIDF but a complex network of hasbara efforts and psyops.) - Sean McBride
I would find it very difficult to believe that "Jason Beck" wasn't part of a larger network and operation. - Sean McBride
By the way, this Friendfeed post is already indexed on Google. - Sean McBride
Keep in mind that the Israel lobby is trying to control the conversation about Israel all across the political spectrum -- from the far left to the far right -- and every gradation of the spectrum in between -- globally -- by every available means, fair and foul. - Sean McBride Dickerson. He has a good comment about JIDF - Chu_
Here's the JIDF memo: ~ ~ ~ JIDF 4chan operations for Feb 2011 ~ ~ ~ Jewish Internet Defense Force (offsite) This upcoming February we will be launching our largest operation on 4chan and other popular image boards, our objective is to create an image of Palestinians and Lebanese being virulently anti-American and anti-Western. • Create threads against Israel and fill them with posts... more... - Chu_
There it is -- but few Americans are aware of these Zionist false flag ops and black ops, that are going on all the time all around the world. - Sean McBride
The level of sociopathic manipulation here is off the charts. - Sean McBride
Zionist false flag ops and black ops: if the network is unsuccessful in one region of the world, move on to find a softer spot. It often seems like 'sport' to them, where raiding & plundering is the main goal and often that money is filtered into Israel...i.e. back to the tribe. Early this week on a subway platform between north and south trains, I saw an old white bearded man with a... more... - Chu_ 2011- Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media Military's 'sock puppet' software creates fake online identities to spread pro-American propaganda - Chu_
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Question for the American Jewish Establishment: Where does Zionism end and Judaism begin? -
It has happened again. The rift between America’s Jewish Establishment and young, liberal-minded Jews has widened in the wake of the Gaza War.
Isn't it time to move past this topic? It seems most of the world has, as evidenced by the numbers in the streets worldwide protesting Zionism. If a tiny fraction of the worldwide population, even though in positions of power for the moment, cling to the idea of a racist,colonialist, genocidal regime, let them argue among themselves. For most young people that I know, Jews and... more... - weareone
I agree wao....only jews find this worth pondering.... - American
Or those who cling to the idea of Zionism-jews or non-jews. I know that I'm not interested in focusing on this and it's nice to have other perspectives on this site. - weareone
Correction: I should say, those who benefit from Zionism, rather than "cling to." - weareone
The vast majority of human beings on the planet are not preoccupied with the problematic relations between Judaism and Zionism -- in fact, they couldn't care less. They are focused on their standard of living and quality of life in their respective nations. (But I think it is a good thing that the Jewish establishment is beginning to undertake the task of disentangling Judaism from Zionism.) - Sean McBride
I suppose so, and good luck to them, but ultimately whatever this small group of small-minded individuals decide is irrelevant, They're still arguing something that most humans have figured out long ago-at least 70 years ago. Zionism is self-destructing and is also being destroyed from the outside via movements such as BDS. Other issues are predominating except within a small group with tunnel vision. - weareone
Sorry if I come off as a little(or a lot) preachy, but you can tell I've had it with this issue. - weareone
Many people are tired of discussing Israeli issues and problems -- those controversies are sucking up all the oxygen in the room. - Sean McBride
That's very true. I should have been more specific-I really meant more the issue of Zionism, but it's very good that we are now finally hearing the voices of Palestinians and other oppressed peoples thanks to alternative media. I wasn't referring to that discussion. - weareone
I am completely tired of the jewish tribe period....and by that I mean the mind boggling, sick to the core narcissism and self worshipping of the tribe. ...the Jews that write about gaza write about in terms of ' what its done to israel'....I am sick of it, really, really sick of it. Every time I see mention of their holocaust now I throw up a bit. Herzl was right, the tribe should be... more... - American
I understand American, but I always remember that there are Jews that have never supported Zionism, not just those that have come lately for whatever reasons. I greatly admire those Jews because they have been persecuted, even killed for their advocacy for human rights. They have "walked the walk, not just talked the talk" for almost 70 years and they are very humble-still no... more... - weareone
Many Jews will continue to be high achievers and culture creators in domains that have nothing to do with Judaism or Zionism -- that's a safe prediction. - Sean McBride
In the face of injustice and inhumanity I think that we have to be careful about generalizing and attributing to all members of a racial or ethnic group, the characteristics of it's worse members. Who among us would like to be identified with the most egregious members of our "tribes?" I prefer to think of myself and others as members of the human family or tribe. - weareone
I think we should all work to overcome negative patterns of group interaction all across the board among all ethnic, religious and cultural groups -- and seek a higher ground. One can dream. - Sean McBride
I agree. - weareone
I, in total honesty, see no worth while 'culture that the jewish tribe has created anywhere. Point out to me some world or civilization improving contribution that the tribe has created-----I have ask a 1000xs for a listing of the supposed contributions of 'the tribe'----and no one has yet been able to provide me with a "List" of their contributions to the universe. Usually the only reply I get is they invented the bible ..and cherry tomatoes...and marched for black civil rights..and got some nobel prizes.. - American
'' Who among us would like to be identified with the most egregious members of our "tribes?" )....Who among us would continue to protect and support a tribe, the *majority' of which supports nazi zionism? Nope I am done with the concern' for jews as a group.'.....they have a problem and are a problem. The rare birds that are against zionism have denounced it and the tribe. If you didnt apporval of what the KKK did you renounced your membership in it----jews can do the same. - American
'Saving the Jews" is done. ..they dont get to be saved again--- (particularly (from themselves) . Save us, save us!!!, we cant stop stealing and killing!!!!---No thanks. - American
American,fwiw, I agree with you more often than not and there is a certain "group think" for lack of a better phase that ,I have come to understand reading MW, is pervasive in the Jewish community. I don't understand it and I don't need to understand it, but I guess I resist seeing Jews as a collective, even though it seems that many see themselves that way. Still, some don't. Anyway, I... more... - weareone
wearone, I understand where you are coming from, I think. All this discussion of jews vs zionism is and has gotten pretty tiresome. Is there anything new to say about the subject? I kind of doubt it. I am also on the same page as you regarding a return to self-producing locally based economies - that global trade business is one balloon that's popped up big time. Now we all see who it... more... - Danaa
So yes, I see Zionism as a very disruptive ideology, which unfortunately is backed by a country that's armed to the teeth and has an emotional hold over many stake holders in other countries (namely, Jews. many of them). One cannot easily escape the clutches of this one ideology because it's come to permeate way too many institutions, from the halls of academia, to charitable... more... - Danaa
I don't think it should be all up to the jews to resolve their "little" zionism/Judaism problem for the reason that the dissonance is all of our problem. The solution is not to become totally uninterested, as uninteresting as the subject may be, but to get more people interested who are not jewish. Today, I was able to explain Gaza to 4 more people who asked, non-Jewish all. And they... more... - Danaa
For this purpose I always keep a rotating selection of 5-10 articles that I know I can send around - just one at a time - as follow-up. Sometimes I choose something from Marc Ellis (I have two on my list) because his writing seems to hit a cord with more religious/spiritually inclined people.Sometimes my own hand-picked selections from Finkelstein where he really knocks the ground from... more... - Danaa
Well you'all have a lot more patience than I do---if it was up to me I'd hit the delete key on Israel--60 years of this shit is 58 years too long. However I will take one thing back.....the Mooser made a comment the other day about being sorry he'd always been so flip and jokey--said Gaza had really gotten to him---so it is possible for some to open their eyes to something besides their own judaism or tribal angst. - American
Mooser has acquired a harder edge, a more serious tone -- it's impressive. But one always knew there was a serious person there beneath the japes. - Sean McBride
Danaa -- something I've noticed -- often one's best writing flies off one's fingertips, spontaneously, with no elaborate crafting or laborious composition. The thoughts are just there, in the moment, baked just right. - Sean McBride
Thanks for your perspective, Danaa. It's great that you're educating and informing people and that they're receptive. I agree that " the solution is not to become totally uninterested, as uninteresting as the subject may be, but to get more people interested who are not jewish,"but my thought is that other perspectives should be heard. When discussing Zionism other voices should... more... - weareone
<<I don't think it should be all up to the jews to resolve their "little" zionism/Judaism problem for the reason that the dissonance is all of our problem>> Zionism is not being left to Jews to resolve, as the world is demonstrating. It seems the world does not trust Jews to resolve a problem that they're perceived of as creating or at the very least, complicit in creating and haven't... more... - weareone
I believe in treating people as individuals, not as cookie cutter members of stereotypical groups -- certainly innocent until proven guilty. Of course, some members of groups do in fact encapsulate the worst qualities of those groups. Ardent followers of messianic ideological movements -- especially ethnic and religious nationalist movements -- do all tend to conform to negative stereotypes and lose the precious traits that make them original and thoughtful individuals. - Sean McBride
Yes, Sean, I agree that people should be treated as individuals, but Zionism is insidious and pervasive and involves many who may or may not be characterized by anti-zionists as "ardent followers of messianic ideological movements." A much larger community has endorsed and supported the Zionist "project" for a very long time. I think you may have discussed it's support by many in the Jewish religious establishment. - weareone
Zionism is an ethnic/religious nationalist movement. If you buy into Zionism -- and especially if you embrace it passionately -- you assume responsibility for the policies and actions of the Israeli government -- you own them. In my experience, most passionate Zionists have abandoned their creative individuality -- they are unpleasant clones of one another. They tend to be bots -- often angry and aggressive bots. - Sean McBride
<< assume responsibility for the policies and actions of the Israeli government -- you own them>> I agree. - weareone
So there are many individuals who "own" the actions of the Israeli government. - weareone
To ever end the Jewish and zionist problem you are going to have to' treat the tribe in a collective manner'. Why? Because the tribe does have 'a group core problem'. And that core problem---one of believing in their exceptionalism, in their eternal entitlement for victimhood is pervasive throughout the majority of the tribe. Until you take those away from the tribe as a whole you will... more... - American
Jewish victimhood entitlement must be 'decommissioned completely'. Or this will never end. - American
I disagree, American -- the most effective way to disagree with particular ideologies and movements is to challenge the particular individuals and groups that lead those ideologies and movements. Otherwise you are yourself succumbing to a collectivist mentality -- and collectivist policies almost always lead to grave injustices and war crimes. - Sean McBride
The golden rule: treat others as you wish to be treated. One presumes that you don't want to be treated as a member of a stereotypical collective. All of us are vulnerable to being treated that way. Which of our cultural groups is without sin? - Sean McBride
''The golden rule" is a great platitude which you can repeat endlessly. But it has nothing to do with the fact that the tribe itsef has these core belief problems. You could apply the same thing to the nazi ideology for German individuals---but the fact is the core beliefs of nazism had to be defeated. The eternal entitlement of Jews as victims is exactly what has spawned the jewish and... more... - American
American -- again: you would be more effective if you directed your criticism at specific individuals and groups that hold specific ideological beliefs -- and not over-collectivize and over-generalize your critique. That is my opinion. I would not react well to being classified and attacked on the basis of coming from an Irish Catholic or Anglo-Episcopalian background and under the assumption that all individuals with that background are collectively guilty of anything. - Sean McBride
You are entirely missing the point of the necessity of having to destroy or end the ideology (of entitlement) of a 'group'. This is what has to be done to the' group ideology'---it has nothing to do with the some or all of individuals. - American
Go argue this with Atzmon. He (and some others, like Avagail) have nailed this time after time and they are right. - American
If your argument is that you oppose the notion of group entitlement held by *some* Jews (and presumably other groups as well), then by all means develop your argument. But when you address your criticism at "the Jewish group," matters become murky and problematic very quickly. - Sean McBride
The issue with Mooser is not so much that he has "bad" or "good" views, but that it is simply difficult to make a reasonable or easy, logical discussion on the relationship between nationalism and religion: Neither he nor I are trying to equate the two, yet he gets too excited, more than is helpful. - WJones
I saw your comment the other day Jones. I really didn't expect him to comment, but in the least I'd expect a put down (are you daft?), but at least he didn't call you boy-chik. I often wonder if all the ghetto dwelling of Jews within other nations made some of them complacent and ultimately bitter toward society (the nations) or did that condition occur before? But look no further than... more... - Chu_
Here is an interesting distinction, one Iheard Gliad also make, between the religious and secular jews, especially in Israel: the religious ones get their tanakh along with the commentaries made over centuries by learned rabbis, who sought to qualify some of the worst chapters, adapting them to more modern sensibilities (like that eye for an eye and adultress stoning business that got... more... - Danaa
As for "Jews as a group" in the US, it's going to be tough. Contrary to what Sean seems to imply, I don't believe jews have leaders, though some may take the mantle upon themselves. There are, instead different centers of consensus, each with its own "thought leaders". Some are more observant than others and some are more, or less, militant in their pro-Israel zealotry. Ultimately,... more... - Danaa
Here is a thought I have been turning over in my head - how far would israel have to go before it loses the support of the jewish establishment? My answer to that question, based on all I know and been able to process, is far from comforting. That's why I agree with some of things American says - reluctantly. This is not the place to elaborate but I think more people should think through this question. Come up with their own answers. - Danaa
WJones -- keep in mind that Mooser has read no scholarly books or articles about the intellectual history of Judaism and Zionism, knows nothing about the subject, is totally incurious about the subject, and is intensely emotional about the subject. It is not possible to pursue a well-informed discussion with him on that subject without being verbally abused by him. Any questions or conversations about the relations between Judaism and Zionism make him angry -- his sense of humor evaporates completely. - Sean McBride
Judaism and Zionism share several core memes: sacred territory, sacred peoplehood, sacred nationhood and never-ending conflict with "the nations." The worldwide Jewish religious establishment has passionately embraced Zionism and fused Judaism and Zionism into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology. - Sean McBride
Mooser would like to make these issues magically disappear with the wave of a wand or a mean jape, but they won't. - Sean McBride
<<Here is a thought I have been turning over in my head - how far would israel have to go before it loses the support of the jewish establishment? My answer to that question, based on all I know and been able to process, is far from comforting.>> They were already OK with wartime massacres and mass expulsions of 75% of the people in the Green Line (the Nakba events), so whatever would... more... - WJones
The other thing that would make them lose support would be if they were openly Apartheid and denied being democratic toward Palestinian Israelis. Pro-Israeli nationalists rely on trying to portray the state as a democracy. It would have to be if Netanyahu or the parliament said something like "We used to be a democracy, but now we decided that's in the past and Apartheid is better." - WJones
crowther makes a good point to mooser. (and see Lozowick's point #1) -And Lozowick is an intellectual in Israel - but his comment about killing children is very crude as Phil notes. - Chu_
I posted this reply to Dan Crowther: - Sean McBride
Dan Crowther, - Sean McBride
The worldwide Jewish religious establishment has projected an image of itself and of Judaism to the entire world that is entirely Zionist -- for the last half century (at least) it has been fusing Judaism and Zionism into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology and political program. - Sean McBride
Simply consult the official statements issued during that time frame by the leading organizations representing Judaism. - Sean McBride
You can find a list of them here: - Sean McBride
Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations: Member Organizations - Sean McBride
In all the controversies surrounding Zionism, this issue strikes me as the most consequential by far -- the one that needs to be addressed most forcefully. - Sean McBride
The behavior of the Israeli government is not only delegitimizing Zionism -- it is delegitimizing Judaism. Zionism and Judaism are now joined at the hip. - Sean McBride
As for Mooser's dream of a non-Zionist Judaism emerging in any significant way -- I'll believe it when I see it. Matters are trending in the opposite direction -- especially in Israel. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
Crowther quote: " This isn’t about judaism, it’s about jewishness." ~It's really the core issue. At this point it feels like [Jewishness] is the parent of Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is an old photograph that new Jews like to look at every so often. - Chu_
One could make the argument that all Jewish ideologies, including Judaism, Marxism and Zionism, are the products of Jewishness -- a set of mental and personality traits that are largely grounded in ethnicity and distinct ethnic characteristics. There is probably a biological/genetic basis for many expressions of human culture. - Sean McBride
Chu "Judaism is an old photograph that new Jews like to look at every so often". Me like. - Danaa
One tends to know Irishness, Englishness, Frenchness, Germanness, Europeanness, Russianness, Indianness, Chineseness, etc. when you see it -- on the basis of many complex traits and factors, many of them unconscious. - Sean McBride
True Monkey Story
When I was a young kid a acquaintance of my father rescued a abused monkey from one of those traveling animal shows. The man was besotted with this monkey and treated the monkey as his only child. You never saw the man without the monkey, he took him everywhere he went. And everywhere he went he would tell people about the rescue of the poor abused monkey. - American
People in town were taken with the story of the monkey and his rescue and made an exception for the monkey and let the man bring him into stores and even restaurants where pets were not normally allowed. All the monkey had to do was point and chatter at something and the man would get it for him. He would drive around town with the monkey in his lap letting him try to steer the car wheel. - American
One day my father remarked that he thought the monkey was becoming dangerous. The man had brought him into his office and the monkey was wild, jumping on the desk and the secretaries, tearing things up and throwing them around and the man couldn’t control him. My father said he told the man he needed to restrict or discipline the monkey some but the man blew it off. - American
Some time after that we heard the man was in the hospital. The monkey was pretty smart and had learned to do all kinds of things like fetch things for the man. So one day the man wassitting on his porch and told the monkey to go fetch them cokes from the fridge. The monkey got two cokes from the fridge but when he went back to the man he didn’t want to hand over one of the cokes to the... more... - American
Some neighbors heard the man yelling and were able subdue the monkey and get the man to the clinic. I don’t remember hearing what happened to the monkey but the man wasn’t able to keep him after that. - American
Just substitute the tribe for the monkey in this story and its easy to see why the world has the current Jewish and Israel problem. - American
American -- any attempts to compare Jews collectively to an abused monkey will be viewed by most people as an expression of classical and virulent antisemitism. I really find it difficult to understand why you go down this path. We may just have to come to the conclusion that you and I hold significantly divergent views on these issues. Every cultural group -- including yours (white... more... - Sean McBride
oh for gawds sake are idiotic when you get on your ridiculous high horse anti semite know damn well I am not calling jews monkeys....this true story illustrates the universal truth of what happens when someone(s) are indulged beyond all reason, allowed to do anything they please. And it is a accurate comparison of the overindulgence of jewish victimhood... more... - American
American -- so you think I am "idiotic" and "ridiculous" because I think you should carefully narrow your critique of Israel and Zionism to specific individuals, organizations, ideas and policies -- and not attack Jews collectively. Got it. With regard to burnishing my "anti-antisemitism creds" -- I am consistent in opposing collectivist attacks on all groups, not just Jews -- that... more... - Sean McBride
So you are saying I disagree that all human being should be treated decently.? I am going to tell you once more.....THIS IS ABOUT THE BELIEFS OF ENTITLEMENT WITHIN THE JEWISH GROUP THAT HAS TO BE ENDED. You keep refusing to GET THE POINT. Amen. - American
American -- when you attack "the Jewish group" (your direct quote), you are engaging in an attack on Jews collectively, from my perspective. I am confident that most people would read your words that way. And, as I have now stated many times, I strongly oppose collectivist attacks on all cultural groups -- they tend to lead to genocidal wars. You are entitled to your opinions -- I am entitled to mine. - Sean McBride
There is a strain of entitlement attitudes running through the beliefs of many cultural groups worldwide and throughout all of world history -- this is not an exclusively Jewish phenomenon. Go after the individuals who hold these beliefs across all cultures. - Sean McBride
At this moment in history, notions of entitlement (even divine entitlement) play a key role in the beliefs of quite a few Jewish and Christian Zionists -- by all means challenge their beliefs as effectively as you can. I try to do so. - Sean McBride
American -- let me be clear: my gut instinct is that you *are* a decent person -- but perhaps a bit rough around the edges and not always perfectly precise in how you express your ideas. I often feel the urge to edit your comments -- but they are your comments and I respect that. - Sean McBride
I will interject about one thing - don't we usually lump all the jewish israelis into a collective? are we wrong to do this? after all, we know there a few good people there too - should we then take the country off the hook for its bad behavior because there are a few good men 9and women) there? - Danaa
By the same token - when it comes to jews in America - haven't all the major jewish establishment organizations (as in ALL 25 of them) plus a large collection of rabbis representing their synagogs fully endorsed israel's massacres of the palestinians? if 60% of all American Jews condone genocide (and they will, to judge by the unremitting pace of their apologetica) and another 20% are... more... - Danaa
Sean knows a few "good" jewish people, I know a few and Phil knows many more, but is that enough to take the "jewish people' as a tribe off the hook? what is personal and what is general? I really don't think it's so simple, and part of me understands where American is coming from. He is exasperated, as are many of us. Unlike Philwho no doubt gets many lovvy-dovvy letters from... more... - Danaa
Thank you Danaa for 'getting it'. Sean acts as if saying the 'victim entitlement culture' must end is condemning and making dire threats to holocaust all the Jews. Ending the victimhood entitlement means just that, withdrawing special treatment for jews/israel and not making exceptions for outrageous and destructive behavior. - American
"" And, as I have now stated many times, I strongly oppose collectivist attacks on all cultural groups "..sean).....Well then.... its a good thing you werent in charge in the 1940's or we'd all be going around clicking our heels and saying Heil Hitler! Or in 1840 or blacks would still be slaves. - American
Do you think Germany should have been "deleted"? - Sean McBride
Nazi Germany was deleted.....and rebuilt as a De- Nazified Germany. - American
Do you think that Nazi Germany was equivalent to Germany, the German people, "the German group," several thousand years of German culture, etc.? - Sean McBride
You have seemed to argue that Zionism is equivalent to Israel, the Jewish people, "the Jewish group," several thousand years of Jewish history, etc. - Sean McBride
Two problematic issues here: 1. Zionism and Israel are in fact one and the same. 2. The contemporary worldwide Jewish establishment has itself stridently claimed that Israel and Zionism are equivalent to the Jewish people collectively. - Sean McBride
You are being a bit schizophrenic, Sean, trying to hold the stick on both ends. kind of like Phil - denounce all the bad players at the heart of the jewish establishment (the "enablers") but hold on to the concept of "privilege", as if one had nothing to do with the other. - Danaa
Of course, the way Phil writes sometimes reveals his own realization- and apprehensions - that privilege may well be the sacrifice required before anything good happens over there in the Middle east. He hopes perhaps that the great "schism" can happen without too much cost to the standing of Jewish Americans and their special entitlements, cf. their position as new mandarins. The hope is normal and perhaps you share it Sean. - Danaa
The way I read it, American basically doesn't believe that a smooth schism with lots of gevalts and hand wringings is on the horizon. Being realistic I kind of see "it" whatever it is, unfolding rather traumatically myself, and not without non-Jews playing an important role. Whether any of us likes it or not, there is a very good chance that the Mandarin class will have to be toppled... more... - Danaa
Example: if Joan Rivers did not feel privileged, she wouldn't have issued thatsnarky, mean-spirited rant she did at the airport. Would anyone in the public eye get away with something like this? Television reporters and actors/actresses were black-listed for a lot less than that. Ask Oliver Stone. - Danaa
Danaa -- when have I ever defended ethnic or religious privilege, entitlement or exceptionalism? I have consistently condemned it. What I am suggesting is that reviving the main themes of classical antisemitism -- in which "the Jewish group" is collectively responsible for all its problems and conflicts with outsiders over 3,000 years -- is extremely dangerous and could lead to another Holocaust. - Sean McBride
I know you condemn it, Sean, but condemnation is not the issue. rather it is what it would take to put a dent in that privilege. You hope it can be done smoothly, as in privilege slowly decaying, and may be time does erode all privilege. But I don't think it will happen without a cataclism, based on my reading of what little I know of human history. Privileged people always feel entitled. The rest are just excuses. - Danaa
Danaa -- I think that the specific individuals and organizations that are most responsible for promoting an ideology and regime of innate privilege, entitlement and exceptionalism should be challenged as forcefully as possible and overcome in the free marketplace of ideas. What would you recommend? - Sean McBride
Here is the problem the way I see it - saying that zionism "hijacked" Judaism and jews is one thing. Hoping the "Jews" can be "rescued" is another. Knowing they - the people and Judaism itself - cannot be 'rescued" without serious collateral damage is still another. I was just stating that my interpretation of where American may be coming from is that he is a bot tired of the "Oy-vey"... more... - Danaa
I recommend nothing, as of yet, Sean. but I am not so trusting that the "marketplace of Ideas" will come to the rescue. Your knight on a white horse is a bit weak, in case you didn't notice. You trust that reason will triumph in the end. Did it in Ukraine? in Iraq? in Palestine? what is more likely to happen is that the voice of reason, being but a wispy whisper on the periphery of most... more... - Danaa
Not that my reading of what may transpire is the same as American's. I am not sure he is ready to behold just what a revolution it might take to topple a mandarin class. He himself - or people he knows and respects - may well be part of the "collateral damage, just as I might be or you. When cataclisms happen "niceness" and "rationality" do not offer a bullet-proof shelter . - Danaa
By my calculation, any efforts to violently overturn the current neoconservative/neoliberal regime would be met with crushing and overwhelming physical force, using the full apparatus of state power. Perhaps your calculations differ. - Sean McBride
You want to know what I suggest doing? just what we have been since it is the role assigned to those of us whose assignment seems to be in the realm of speech. I am thinking of Josephus Flavius. He saw it all coming down and made his choice that he wanted to be on the side of the chroniclers. - Danaa
I myself am in the Titus Flavius Josephus camp -- in part because I think there are much bigger forces in play in world history than political and cultural conflicts based on ethnicity, race, religion and nationalism. - Sean McBride
My calculations are no different than yours Sean. Toppling the neoliberal/neoconservative overlors will not come about smoothly, and I totally agree that any overt attempt will be met with overwhelming force. But look at Ferguson - there is obviously a huge amount of pent-up anger and frustration. And the over-response by the police will only make the frustration worse. next time it bubbles over it will be that much more violent. - Danaa
You may do Flavius but i think I'll stick to jeremiah. It's my natural role. WE each have one in this Greek tragedy, based on inclination, opportunity and happenstance. - Danaa
Danaa -- to some degree, you and American have nailed me. I see the Jewish establishment as being boxed into a bad corner with Zionism and am searching for ways to help extricate itself gracefully from this situation with as little damage as possible. I am doing this not because I am a wonderful person or a "Judeophile" but because I think that if this situation goes the wrong way,... more... - Sean McBride
Listen to Danaa sean. Your position reminds me of the old saying..."cant see the forest for the trees" ...when it comes to individual Jews vr the Group. You arent going to magically remove a few Uber Zionist and cure Zionism/Israel or the group of their firmly held belief in their entitlement as victims. - American
Let's establish why I say Jewish entitlement has to end. First, I do not, and no serious realist or FP expert like Walt or Freeman and dozens of others believe for one second that Israel is any kind of asset to the US. On the contrary they believe it is a liabiity. In 1948 all FP and military experts warned Truman that the US would rue the day Israel was established in the ME. I dont... more... - American
Second, despite the claims of just being a few Jews who support zionism and Israel and demand the US do so------no one can look at jewish publications, no one can look at Judaism in the US and not see that the biggest segment of Judaism is totally committed to Israel. You have seen by now some Jews who have expressed the 'concern' that the Israel cornerstone in US Judaism should at least be 'debated". - American
American -- you're preaching to the choir on those issues -- I've made the same points many times myself. - Sean McBride
Third, it is fact that people dont want to or usually willingly give up any 'perks' they are getting. And I have listed special perk after perk from we taxpayers courtesy of our congress that go to even rank and file Jews. Do you think they want to lose the 90% of Homeland Security funds they receive for their orgs and offices and schools and etc.? Do they want to lose the special tax... more... - American
Fourth, just like the 1% that is incuring so much resentment so do Jews among people who are aware of this. Even people who arent aware of it all--do, as you have seen in major comment boards----resent the hell out of their money going to Israel---even before this latest Gaza slaughter. Add to this the raised eyebrows and whispering among people when they hear all the pledges of loyalty to israel in every election....and yes there is whispering of wtf among a lot of people. - American
Fifth, just like there will eventually be either a political correction or upheaval aimed at government because of the inequity and deterioriting conditions in the US there will be a upheaval against the Israel loyalty by politicians and upheaval against the Jewishness they will associate with supporting it.....and the public will be at least 50% correct in assigning that blame to the jewish group. You can argue against that fact all you want it wont change the facts. - American
Sixth, I dont know how it will end, I only know it has to end. And it has to end for the reason/ result I illustrated with my abused/spoiled monkey story. - American
Seventh, if you have read even a fraction of my post on MW and here and elsewhere you know that I have consistently, loudly, demandingly...urged everyone 'to go after the politicians' as the way to end the Isr problem...I havent urged them to go after the Jews or Judaism. I have said and will keep saying the Jews are absolutely stupid beyond belief to have made their foreign disneyland... more... - American
As said I have no idea how it will end. What I think is there has to be a huge public blacklash against Israel as part of a general backlash against USA Orwell, Inc.. ...that would end jewish influence for Isr in government. That would be the best outcome. The worse outcome is letting it continue until it culminates in more abuse of the US by Israel and more strident demands and acting out by zionist jews and some event touches off the kind of last straw outburst we are seeing in Mo. right now. - American
'' I've made the same points many times myself. - Sean McBride. "...Well then quit taking issue with what I have said . I am 'blunt,' so to speak for a purpose,...because some of us must be or this will be a 'forever debate'...we know where the core of the problem is and its what I described. And I have said it to the zios and everyone else on MW hundreds of times. And even the so... more... - American
Is the restricted comment deadline an example of self-censorship on behalf, indirectly, of the political system?
Philip Weiss August 3, 2014 at 8:10 pm with 1 replies "I agree that Jewish exceptionalism is a problem; but societies all have their elites, they rise and fall, and this one improved on the wasps in some ways, fell back in others. We could talk about Vietnam and the best and the brightest. Another awful elite" - koch
I think that partly, the answer is yes - cut back on the time the thread is open and conversation, by definition, will wither away. I believe that it was the 'conversations" that raised the ire of certain individuals in the background, who are desperately trying to "quaranteen" the virus of zionism/Judaism, it being considered a most virulent condition. Those "background" people are... more... - Danaa
The other part for cutting back on comments is simpler - insufficient man/woman power to moderate. That's not an easy job and never was. Especially when a blog becomes popular, like MW is. They are inundated with hasbara trolls most of which we never see. But also they sense a bubbling impatience underneath even the most polite conversations. That means that some posters have to be... more... - Danaa
The short of what I'm trying to say - uneasy rests the crown. - Danaa
And we know what happens to the court jester if he goes too far. - Danaa
The court "jester" - the role assigned to MW by the "community": keep that valve partly open so "people" can blow off steam, and the PTB can keep an eye on the percolating brew. And if it gets too "steamy", why can always put the lid on. Alas, there's a bubbling cauldron underneath - it may be getting close toa spontaneous phase change - may not be as simple as replacing a lid. - Danaa
I guess the name of the next operation state-side should be "Cast Lid". Something tells me there are those forging various alloys as we speak...... - Danaa
"Cast Lid". :) - WJones
<<The court "jester" - the role assigned to MW by the "community": keep that valve partly open so "people" can blow off steam, and the PTB can keep an eye on the percolating brew. And if it gets too "steamy", why can always put the lid on>> Not surprised. - weareone
Danaa -- very smart comments -- and a perfect example of charged and electric writing that flows in a spontaneous and conversational way. - Sean McBride
I think some of the smartest minds in the Jewish community are trying to figure just how far one can go in the critique of Zionism, Judaism and the Jewish tradition as a whole without unleashing a tidal wave of antisemitism. It is difficult to know where that line is. - Sean McBride
The educated Christian community in the West made the decision quite some time ago: anything goes with regard to the critique of Christianity. Either you believe in open intellectual inquiry and free speech or you don't. - Sean McBride
There are, of course, important distinctions between open intellectual inquiry on the one hand and incitements to hatred and violence on the other. - Sean McBride
Since most thoughtful Jews want to protect their right to critique non-Jewish ideologies, they will need to protect the right of non-Jews to critique Jewish ideologies. The criticism needs to flow freely in both directions. But all of these critiques need to be civil. - Sean McBride
Regarding hate speech: I know it when I see it. Most of us do. - Sean McBride
Mondoweiss on Friendfeed
Gaza has at last come to matter. For the spectator world, it is an opportunity to vicariously sample – from a safe distance, of course - the heart of darkness that casts such a pall over much of humanity’s barbaric past, to the dark forces of conquest that have all too often strayed into outright genocide, as conquistadors, hordes and “settlers” of days gone did what they could to “clear the land”’ of its inconvenient natives. And yes, to Nazi persecution of WW2, says Danaa Marec at Mondo.
Our Danaa I presume. - Sean McBride
My reply was--->''I think internal consensus has been achieved in the Israeli government and a large segment of its society…….Israel has just not yet found world powers willing to let them go quite that far…or who would foot the bill for their transfer solutions. Various plans for the final transfer or disposal of Palestines from their land have been out for a number of years. One particularly odious one under the guise of a ‘humanitarian solution’ (below). - American
continued----"The Israel premise for the humanitarian transfer begins with a familiar refrain—-if you want to make German or Jewish holocaust comparsions to Gaza and Palestines. ’’Dispassionate analysis of Palestinian behavior for well over the last half-century strongly supports the heretical assertion that the Palestinians are neither genuinely desirous nor deserving of statehood. ‘’... more... - American
Marek is a Czech name. - WJones
Its her pen name. - American
good news. maybe she can start that blog. But Danaa has written stuff for MW in the past. One article I recall, when they were asking for contribution pieces. - Chu_
The piece seemed to me somewhat forced and' winding'....doesnt sound like her usual takes here and in comments section......bu then again thinking about it twice , I see one or two similar themes in it. - American
Can you cite her past articles? I could not find them. - WJones
I could be mistaken Jones. The search feature is not so good at MW. Taxi around the same time wrote an article for MW, and I can't find that easily. And if you know, MW has deleted some old posts, ones that had controversial debates - flushed right down the memory hole. - Chu_
Try using Google to search Mondoweiss, for instance: [Google; danaa] - Sean McBride
I don't think there are any other articles by Danaa on the site now. "Danaa Marec" is listed as having only one article. If you do a google search for: _____site: danaa____ , then all that comes up is Danaa Marec and Annie, and I don't know why Annie comes up, but anyway there is no other author listed as Danaa. - WJones
I'll find it for you W.Jones. It was from January 2012 I believe when MW had all those submissions contest. There were quite a few good ones, and mine was one (it didn't win .... but got a nod, so something). I was going to turn in something in february when the hoopla was going on about Yarmouk in Syria, to try and balance the scales. I was almost done (it was difficult - needed lots... more... - Danaa
BTW, thanks for the good words, WJones, and the interest. I know this one turned out "a bit" long but next time, I'll try and make American happy too and take some scissors to it. It's good to have room for improvement, isn't it? - Danaa
Truth is, I am not nearly done with what I have to say about gaza. I just saw Weisel's ad again - which the Guardian accepted, for some reason. Stomach churning. We can expect the israelis - and friendsin the US - to continue to go overboard with their blood libels against hamas. the latest is - they are trying to draw a straight line between hamas and ISIS.really. Just like that. So that's my next material. - Danaa
Danaa....I thought it was good but it didnt sound as 'surgical' or laser like ,for lack of a better term ,as your usual remarks. - American
W.Jones - here is the link to that entry. It was 2011 not 2012 (how time passes!). It was called Elegy : - Danaa
American, not to worry, the sharp will return, in due course. An aside: we all have more than one side, don't we? and you haven't seen my poetry yet - just you wait..... - Danaa
Danaa, You can still submit your outdated article on Yarmouk someplace. You can call it an article on "hindsight" about Yarmouk, and include a paragraph or two to update the reader. The Syrian conflict, continues, anyway. - WJones
I just read Danaa's older essay she linked to. It was listed under Annie Robbins' articles by says Danaa in the subtitle as the author. I liked the essay. - WJones
Danaa, you write beautifully. In a comment after your earlier essay you wrote: "In time, I intend to do more weaving in of some of the riveting accounts from the “other side” "– Thank you for doing that. - weareone
Although, we may think that the vile inhumanity of the situation should be obvious, you may be able to reach some who are not fully awake to it. - weareone
this guy falls into the category of a LZ when it's convenient, but goes to Likud when things get tough. Same claptrap as many others. MW should address this delusion with Zionists. It's like a psychological disorder that needs treatment. - Chu_
Actually it's closer to Psychopathy. The LZ's, just like Likud, and just like the religious Jews - in israel and the US suffer from something I could only characterize by analogy with a certain type of sociopaths. The thing that jumps at you right away is the complete absence of empathy for other humans who are not Israelis (or at least jews). IT's like they try to mask it by sending a... more... - Danaa
Sean McBride
ISIS Atrocities in Iraq Represent the Catastrophic Failure of Bush Doctrine and Neoconservative Foreign Policy | H. A. Goodman -
ISIS Atrocities in Iraq Represent the Catastrophic Failure of Bush Doctrine and Neoconservative Foreign Policy | H. A. Goodman
"Soon after 9/11, the Bush administration led the country with confidence and bravado, calling out an Axis of Evil and offering a bold new plan to remake the map of the Middle East. Unfortunately, bringing democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq proved more difficult than Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Bush had promised Americans when selling both wars. While Dick Cheney still holds the senile view that Obama is to blame for Iraq's current demise, the reality is that William Kristol, Robert Kagan, and all the other necons who wrote essays like Bombing Iraq Isn't Enough in The New York Times (as early as 1988) failed to accurately predict the future. The Bush Doctrine policy of "preventive war" not only failed to prevent future conflicts in Iraq and the Middle East, but also created a power vacuum that emboldened renegade and genocidal groups like ISIS." - Sean McBride from Bookmarklet
"The potential interest cost of the US war debt reaches into the trillions; but of greater consequence is the fact that we deliberately chose to finance the wars in this fashion -- passing on the costs to future generations." - Sean McBride
"Unfortunately, we didn't have a Tea Party bemoaning the national debt or responsible GOP lawmakers asking for a tax to pay for the war. From the potentially $6 trillion for both wars, the interest alone on those wars could reach trillions; representing a substantial portion of the national debt in future generations. Financial concerns aside, the absolute failure of people like Dick... more... - Sean McBride
Top comment: "W's Lost Decade was catastrophic for our country and the entire world. It will take us decades to recover all that W destroyed." - Sean McBride
Obama isnt helping...... - American
Obama is boxed into a corner by the Israel lobby -- particularly by the pro-Israel billionaires who largely own the Democratic Party. - Sean McBride
Obama doesnt have to be boxed into a corner----he and other politicians just dont have the balls to bust the lobby wide open in public and kill it...which is what would happen if a president ever took to the bully pulpit and educated the citizens on everything the Lobby has done. - American
Any American president who tried to challenge the Israel lobby would be immediately cut down through a wide variety of tools and methods. - Sean McBride
Look at what happened to Jimmy Carter, George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. - Sean McBride
The protest about Gaza would be magnified 100,000xs if the public knew how they had been conned, raped and suckered by I-First and politicians. - American
The Israel lobby largely owns and controls the mainstream media -- the American public will never be informed about these matters as long as this situation exists. - Sean McBride
'' challenge the Israel lobby would be immediately cut down'....I disagree. The lobby has succeeded on its lies, propaganda and that of its bought politicians. Whole story ever revealed to the public by a US president and its curtains for the lobby. - American
American -- you greatly underestimate the power of the Israel lobby -- and the subtlety and sophistication of ops that can be brought to bear to destroy any public figure. - Sean McBride
'' The Israel lobby largely owns and controls the mainstream media"....yea it does... BUT the 'executive' can command as much of the media for any public address he wants...they cant refuse to air any ' address' to the public the executive demands. We just havent had any president who would do it. - American
George H.W. Bush tried to do precisely that and he was cut off at the knees. - Sean McBride
The only power the lobby has is media propaganda control and said, if anyone ever bust those----its curtains--- - American
The power of the lobby extends far beyond media and political influence -- you are really not seeing the big picture here. - Sean McBride
GWH bush didnt go far enough, that why he didnt succeed----he didnt expose the lobby and name the names in congress who went against him and explain their treason--if he had everything about the lobby would have blown up then. - American
Imagine if ronald regean with his popularity had done this for instance----would have been immediate death for the lobby to go against the gipper. - American
The lobby would have caught wind of plans to do something like that well in advance and stopped it before it was executed. Their intelligence network in the United States is probably superior to that of American intelligence services. - Sean McBride
Yea I over estimate their power....their power primilary rest on the cowardice and career self interest of politicians. Consider how one leader turned Germany--- - American
Leaders are just fronts for powerful special interests -- they make and break "leaders" with the greatest of ease. - Sean McBride
I have no idea why you want to over estimate or idealize the lobby's power ---we just have to see that differently. .. their entire network could be crashed by the right person in the WH..not that that is likley to happen. - American
American -- you seem to have a fundamental misconception of how politics works in general. Politics is theater -- it's stage-managed -- with investors, producers, directors, scriptwriters and actors. You are too much focused on the actors -- the bottom of the food chain. Actors are entirely disposable entities -- hirelings. There is always another pretty face who can be paid to read lines. - Sean McBride
Earth to sean---you still dont get it----a leaders could appear to be bought to attain power and then be the 'trojan horse 'of the jewish israeli camp and bring it down. Thats what I would do---tell them whatever they wanted to hear and once in power cut their throats. The reason a president doesnt do this isnt just his own political re election its the 'party' ---what it would do to the partiy's campaign coffers---but you never know---a rebel might come along and do just what I said. - American
Believing that any American president could buck the Israel lobby is like believing in the tooth fairy. It is not going to happen. - Sean McBride
Presidents are worried about their lives after the presidency and the lives of their family members and loved ones. - Sean McBride
If I thought the lobby was that invincible I be working harder on my call 1- 800 -Swat- Team solution. - American
And you would be immediately swatted down. - Sean McBride
When the number of billionaires who oppose the Israel lobby exceed the number of billionaires who support the Israel lobby, you may see change. But as matters stand now, most billionaires have been coopted by the Israel lobby. Supporting the Israeli government is in their self-interest. Opposing the Israeli government would be very much not in their self-interest. - Sean McBride
How many billionaires are willing to die for israel? isnt everything in this. The fear for their lives and families you ascribe to Obama and others who go against the lobby/israel works just as well on zionist. - American
Well if the lobby could tank the entire US economy then the thing to do would be to simply eliminate the individuals with their fingers on that many as it takes to disfuse the threat....I am sure many nonjewish/zionist finanical elties would have no problem with that solution. The problem you have with all this as I see it is thinking non jewish and other interest wont use the same tactics on the zionist as they use on others. Believe me they would if push came to shove. - American
American -- if you think you can get into a *physical* confrontation with the Israel lobby, you are living a dream world. You don't seem to be fully cognizant of the organized forces that are lined up against you. You really should drop that line of thinking. - Sean McBride
The only realistic way to try to move the needle on these issues is by using social media as skillfully as possible. And that may not even work -- Israel has developed many plans, procedures and ops for dealing with challenges from social media. - Sean McBride
'' American -- if you think you can get into a *physical* confrontation with the Israel lobby, you are living a dream world. You don't seem to be fully cognizant of the organized forces that are lined up against you. You really should drop that line of thinking. - Sean McBride'.....LOL..Yea, King George told my ancestors the same thing and look what happened. This is no physical confrontation with the lobby only becuase no one' has chosen' to use it...yet. - American
What do you think the Mossad file on you already looks like? Especially considering that violent scenarios are on your mind? - Sean McBride
It's a safe bet that they already possess your telephone records, email records, Web browsing records, financial records, medical records, court records, tax records and many other types of personal information -- along with those of your family members and associates. And they know how to use them. - Sean McBride
'' It's a safe bet that they already possess'.....oh me I am soooo scared. Not. You keep missing the point. If a rebel president ever took to the bully pulpit and exposed the lobby at least 'half' of all americans would go nuclear against the treasonous lobby------so just what do you think the lobby could do with all their records in the face of 150 million pissed off citizens. Nothing. - American
Are you under the impression that you are immune from being opped by zealots whose cage you have rattled? Do you fully understand what can be done with large personal datasets in terms of black ops? - Sean McBride
I am hardly important enough to concern the zealots and even I was I wouldnt care. - American
Anyone who has made more than a few hundred posts that are critical of Israel on influential social media (like Mondoweiss) is on their radar. If you have even hinted at committing violence, you are no doubt pushed to the top of these lists -- and have provided the US government with the justification for collecting all the personal data mentioned above. (The Israeli government, of course, is not constrained by American laws on these matters.) - Sean McBride
Are there any people in your life you care about besides yourself? - Sean McBride
Regarding clever and innovative ops directed at individuals: can you name some of them? - Sean McBride
'' Regarding clever and innovative ops directed at individuals: can you name some of them? - Sean McBride)...Uh?...I am not the one who has said the lobby has clever and innovative ops. So you name them. I see them as the same old common dirty tricks and mafia tactics as any gutter thugs. - American
We are talking about Mossad-level activities -- not AIPAC-level activities. Educate yourself on the subject. That is an entirely different ball game. - Sean McBride
I promise you Mossad is not going to attack me. - American
It doesn't have to be Mossad -- anyone operating at that level, and there are independent and rogue groups out there that keep a very low profile -- who are invisible. You claim to know their redlines on no realistic basis. - Sean McBride
6 years of Obama and we are still blaming Bush this administration not the Bush Administration armed ISIS to topple the house of Assad. Then this administration decided to let the Russians solve the Assad problem you know their biggest ally. Now we have problems all over the place that are all happening as a result of projecting weakness. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
Eric -- neoconservatives sought to reduce the Mideast to chaos (thereby weakening Israel's enemies), and they used Bush to successfully achieve their goal. With regard to projecting "strength" -- what do you propose? (By the way, your talking points are straight from Fox News.) - Sean McBride
My talking points are the facts I don't even watch Fox News. I hardly watch TV at all. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
Eric: any thoughts on this? [Google; isis OR isil mossad] - Sean McBride
Eric: how do you propose that the United States project strength in the Mideast without triggering even bigger shitstorms than we are already seeing? How many more American dollars are you willing to spend on these projects and how many more American lives are you willing to sacrifice? - Sean McBride
The Engineered Destruction and Political Fragmentation of Iraq. Towards the Creation of a US Sponsored Islamist Caliphate. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
Ok, Eric -- interesting article -- definitely outside the bounds of Fox News. - Sean McBride
Eric -- I do agree with you on this: Barack Obama is certainly at this point fully responsible for American foreign and domestic policies -- and for both their successes and failures. I find myself strongly disagreeing with him on several policies -- but also thinking that matters could be much worse. - Sean McBride
You can make the argument that it started under Bush, but it sure as hell has not stopped under Obama. - Eric Logan from FFHound!
You are absolutely right, Eric -- I understand your argument now. - Sean McBride
America, you are really idealistic....wish you were right about the power of the American people to make change. Once upon a time, yes. But something happened along the way that dulled the senses and undermined whatever values were held in common. Not for everyone, but for way too many. Sometimes i think we all have a tendency to associate primarily with those of our circles (including... more... - Danaa
Also, re your argument American, I'll bring Exhibit A: Ron paul. he said all the right things about foreign policy, he was popular among conservatives and libertarians, he won straw polls, he took on the lobby. And? - Danaa
on the left you had denis Kucinich. same story as paul, on the democratic side. You have to solve these two puzzles first before going to the next level. - Danaa
Naw, I'm not really idealistic about the masses. What I do believe in is the 'nature' of the zionist, the nature of politicians and the nature of the masses. Because of the nature of the zionist and the politicians there will be some last straw dropped on the country and then the masses will turn---that pretty much been the entire history of mankind---nothing last, not the good or the bad. - American
even if fink was weak on BDS, he is still a good critic of Israel. - Chu_
comment on youtube: צה"ל שרה כוהן‎3 hours ago Fuck this Islamofascist - Chu_
Norman Finkelstein is really a very effective speaker and does a great job presenting the side of the pro-Palestinians, in taking down the Hasbara points one by one. It is indeed too bad he hasn't found it in his heart yet to come all out in favor of BDS, since he would have been a good presenter of that as well. As I listened to him, I found myself lamenting that he can't sem to go... more... - Danaa
The effectiveness of Finkelstein and Chomsky on 85% of the issues is why I can't go overboard in attacking them. It's not for nothing they are interviewed on all the alternative channels. Yes, I know, they have a special dispensation for being jewish. Just as khalidi sometimes gets to say his piece (and he is quite effective as well) but only because he is Arabic. - Danaa
IMO, there needs to be a push to get more non-Jewish, non-palestinian scholars out in front of the cameras. Yes, there are walt and mearsheimer, and sometimes Flynt leverett (who is married to a jewish person so OK), but that's not enough. I would love to see someone of the caliber of Finkelstein speaking on the I/P issue who is neither jewish nor Arabic. I know there's Chris hedges but.....we need more. - Danaa
Amy Goodman likes to put fellow Jews on Democracy Now. - pepsi
i like fink, he's not a uppity guy. But his BDS stuff was something I'd expect from MJ. But he still cares about the people suffering in Gaza. At this point for Israel Gaza is like a real estate issue. They cant figure out, nor can their congressional tools. Israel never has a plan, being such an ally of the western powers (cant they wrap this up?). Can't the media ask this question?... more... - Chu_
Why can't you make an interesting, or at least a pertinent comment, pepsi, just once in a while? do try - it's not so hard.... - Danaa
Chu, you should know (well, I'm sure you do) that gaza drives israelis absolutely nuts. They just can't figure out how all the great jewish brains and jewish military strategist and political geniuses just can't seem to come up with something that would do hamas in once and for all. The latest and the bestest scheme they are trying is to accuse hamas of child "sacrifice' a la Weisel. Now, really? so much genius for this one pathetic travesty of a line? what are we - biblical hordes? - Danaa
Also, israel really does have a plan for gaza. one they feel the US can sort of go along with. It's just the rest of the world that won't. A real problem, that. The world. - Danaa
Oh, they have a plan- keep them on a diet and mow the lawn. What genius. Brought to you by the people of the Warsaw ghetto. Unreal how stupid it all is. - Chu_ from Android
Sean McBride
Once again, Dan Crowther is arguing that sinister non-Jewish parties in "the West" are responsible for the behavior of Israel and Zionists
The Chomskyite point of view. - Sean McBride
BEGIN COMMENT (my comment) - Sean McBride
Dan Crowther, <blockquote> My frank opinion is that Jews in Israel and their Jewish supporters worldwide are being took, by Uncle Sam and the West generally. </blockquote> - Sean McBride
Which sinister non-Jewish parties in the West are manipulating and victimizing ADL, AIPAC, the Conference of Presidents, Goldman Sachs, Haim Saban, Jewish neoconservatives, JINSA, Mossad, NJDC, RJC, Sheldon Adelson, etc. -- coercing them to be passionate Jewish ethnic and religious nationalists? Demanding that Israel continue to expand settlements into Greater Israel against the wishes and will of Western governments? - Sean McBride
Please be specific -- names of groups, organizations and individuals. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
My prediction: few names will be named, if any at all. - Sean McBride
Crowther has some personal corn cob up his ass. I believe he is the one that wrote long ago about all his personal gripes about his 'station in life' and all the 'raw deals' he got and blames it on dastardly upper classes and elites. Similar displacement as someone who comes up with a group or person to blame for everything that happens to them---he's transfered that attitude to the US... more... - American
Crowther: "For centuries Jews were like the bailiffs for the ruling classes, doing a lot of the dirty work. Seems like not a lot has changed. So, if anything that rallying cry should be: We’re getting taken for a ride by the same crowd that incited anti semitism when it suited them and were indifferent to the Holocaust." -His tokyobk response is confusing. But here he is implying that... more... - Chu_
other comments: crowther ""If Americans only knew" is bullshit propaganda. It assumes that if Americans did know, they would do something about it, because Americans are good and decent people." ~ wow bullshit propaganda.* very bright guy. semper fi! (kidding) - Chu_
I still want to know about Donald....I dont like him and am going ater him even if I get banned---he's a foil of some kind and Phil evidently thinks none of us notice. - American
On forums like MW, you just have to let people disagree with you no matter what their motives or agendas. Simply debate them with as much skill as possible. - Sean McBride
why bother getting banned? Donald is groomed by MW. You can disagree, but Annie is often not much better. Just graze over them and look for the good comments. Or just challenge him w/o crossing the line (the mods will do that for you anywyay.) - Chu_
Well I will see far I can go....Donald is a liar,liars piss me off but I will try to be cool. However its all so repetitive its boring and when bored with blah blah I tend to dump it in the garbage...I am wondering if its worth the time. - American
# Key don'ts in debating: don't 1. abuse 2. bluster 3. boast 4. brag 5. bully 6. complain 7. distort 8. feud 9. gloat 10. harangue 11. harass 12. lecture 13. preach 14. rant 15. ridicule 16. sermonize 17. shout 18. swagger 19. take the bait 20. threaten 21. whine - Sean McBride
Not that I follow my own advice all the time -- but I regret it when I don't. - Sean McBride
21. whine - isn't that what a comments section is for? lol. Look at all the WaPost comments - it's nothing but whining. i think that's why it's easy to break the logjam of whiners with some good hard facts. The whiners are especially are offended by 'facts'. (not going overboard like hostage, but a few meaty tidbits to get them salivating is all it takes) - Chu_
Clean hard factual sentences, expressed with elegance, brevity and calm, easily dominate verbose emotional pitches. Master the craft of constructing them. - Sean McBride
Never let your opponent throw you off balance -- stay on your calm center. - Sean McBride
Chaos 4700 used to get very hot-headed, and so does Cliff. Actually both were/are good at turning the heat up on these troll-charlatans. Their arguments are so pathetic, they often should be banned. People want to yell at them (just like at a any real party) to shame them into leaving. - Chu_
American, you could also tell Donald in a nice way his routine is getting stale. Crowther called him a 'Tom' (lol) just yesterday and it passed. - Chu_
I have a cat named Tom. Should he be offended? (no, he is not a Chomskiite, but he sure chomps....) - Danaa
The comment at the head of this thread hasn't been cleared yet. - Sean McBride
meow... - Chu_
''meow'' have an old yellowed framed cartoon of the Gafield cat in which his owner, whats his name, is petting and playing with him and then Garfield turns on him and swats him with a paw and says..... 'I'm thru playing now.'' - American
Well I admit to occasional failings of abuse -. bully - feud -harass-rant and ridicule when I reach my Garfield cat limits.. But I dont boast--brag- complain - distort - gloat - sermonize or whine. Maybe I will ignore him. - American
One good thing----I just got another call for donation to the "Dems"and told the girl nicely no and that Gaza was just the last straw for my family with the Dems----I was floored cause she said..."I know, I've heard that". She said who can we vote for though and we had a short chat about Greens and independents---maybe Gaza got to more people then we think. - American
maybe it's me, but his tone seems embarrassed & defeated about Israel. Mentions 'unity agreement', that Israel has been desperate to stop. - Chu_
ziocane hangovers are probably unbearable. - Chu_
Jewish leftists will jump either in the direction of Gilad Atzmon or in the direction of Likud Zionism -- there no longer exist any progressive, liberal or moderate expressions of Zionism. Jewish critics of Israel on the left have had no impact on Israeli policies -- and Israeli and Zionist culture is moving inexorably towards the religious/racist right. - Sean McBride
Chomsky has been an enabler also in refusing (lying about) the core of the problem. - American
Noam Chomsky should be embarrassed. AS a person of his staure, he could have done more Note: One tweet about Gaza in the last 3 weeks, which basically blamed the US gov't, instead of the systemic pyramid that enables these war crimes. I think he should revisit his BDS positions. Israel needs to be SANCTIONED . they are an abusive rogue state that is coddled by the West. - Chu_
I doubt if they will jump to Atzmon.....the more heat the more they will circle the wagons...not in defense of what Israel did but in using Jewish criticism of it to maintain some semblence of Jewish oppositon and morality to the actions of Israel...but they will never address the core of it that Atzmon writes about....or what Max exposes either. - American
Cynical me is guessing that Chomsky got some jewish help in making himself a 'stature' a gatekeeper for not blaming jews for the jewish lobby that governs US policy on Israel.----always gotta maintain that 'no fault' position for jewish inspired/related problems. - American
I disagree about camps they'll be force to go into: LikZios or Atzmon. They'll form another camp somewhere in between. what's that saying 'Two Jews, three opinions' - Chu_
maybe, chomsky in the vid looked like he drank the last glass of 'kool aid'. We'll have to see. - Chu_
You think Max is focusing on that?...he always seems much more a realist to me and not into the religious or mythical prophetic at all...but maybe he is and I havent seen it. - American
Jewish leftists like Noam Chomsky have failed to come to grips with the central role of Judaism and the Jewish lobby in Israeli and Zionist politics. In fact, they have worked hard to suppress and censor meaningful discussion about those topics. Bottom line: they have failed to exert any influence on the Israeli government and the Israel lobby -- they don't even dare to allude to the most significant problems. - Sean McBride
You wonder watching Chomsky, if it enters into his mind the power that he has to motivate people. Chomskyites are a dedicated breed. He says 'frog', and they say 'how high'. Too bad he pussed out on BDS. He needs to reconsider that Israel is not going to change. He points the finger at US Gov't, but that is one step of the mastaba pyramid. - Chu_
I would love to see a side by side between the old cadre (cf Chomsky) and the new cadre (cf. max Blumenthal). Poor Chomsky looks more and more like Goldstone to me. How did these jewish elite establishment "intelligensia" get such a powerful hold over the likes of Chomsky and Slater? what is it that prevents a normally astute mind like Chomsky's from comprehending and seeing the... more... - Danaa
There - I have an idea (with regard to the difference between Chomsky and greenspan) - it's all about the love! somehow the likes of Chomsky ended up giving their heart to a hooker (Israel/zionism) who they thought, hoped, had a heart of gold. Well, it turns out she was a borg clone and heart was irrelevant. Whereas Greenspan just staked a reputation, and what is reputation between... more... - Danaa
One more thing - looking at Chomsky (and I didn't finish watching the segment) I am beginning to understand why Israel always demands LOVE (which is where Obama is a suspect - no love there, just politics). Once they get the heart, the brain is easy pickings. That's what they must have done to the US Jewish zios and think they have done to the Christian zios. That's got to be it - it's a love affair gone bad - the lovely mistress turned out to be a cold-hearted dyke on bike.... - Danaa
All cults demand LOVE -- absolute devotion -- from their followers, otherwise they wouldn't survive. Cults require that cult followers entirely abandon their rational faculties and be lifted up and hypnotized by an emotional surge. And this is why nearly all of them end very badly. - Sean McBride
Cults are con games and rackets that focus on picking the pockets of vulnerable marks. - Sean McBride
"That's got to be it - it's a love affair gone bad " - what we need is Sean Hannity for President. We know where his heart lies with our closest ally. - Chu_
Chomsky looks like his hooker just stole his wallet and beat his ass down. He's so deflated, why, he cant even go to the police. ~ as they've been bought off as well. What's a fella to do? - Chu_
I'd say Greenspan apologised because it was all he could do. He let the animals out of the barn and lit a fat stogie and threw the matchbook into the hay and watched the barn burn. It was more of a CEO corporate 'I'm sorry' apology though. Wasn't it? - Chu_
Mostly Chomsky seemed very old. Tired and slow. - WJones
He *is* old (85 years old). - Sean McBride
As to a debate between Chomsky and the new guard, yes it would be interesting. - WJones
There is a debate between Chomsky and the ADC on the topic of the Lobby, and an interview with Chomsky by Allison Weir that was debate-like. Allison Weir is something like the new guard. - WJones
Here is Allison Weir's debate-like discussion with Chomsky: - WJones
Cult enthusiasts and zealots often look like they have lost their minds -- and they have. Look at the crazy eyes of so many Israeli settlers -- no one is home. Cult followers are all interchangeable clones of one another. They have undergone a process of deindividuation -- assuming that any of them were individuated in the first place. - Sean McBride
Chomsky says at 39:30 that if "you go back a couple of decades, Israel was one of the most admired countries in the world." Do you think that this is true? What about Canada, Western or Central Europe, Switzerland, or Sweden? A couple of decades ago would be the 1960's to 1970's. I think that the Israeli State was not really so admired among Muslim countries back then though, and that is about what, 25% of the world? - WJones
42:43: "There are lots of analogies to South Africa, most of them pretty dubious in my mind." And this is from a person who says that it's worse than South Africa. - WJones
that it's worse than South Africa." - what's worse than S Africa? - Chu_ from Android
'' it's all about the love! somehow the likes of Chomsky ended up giving their heart to a hooker (Israel/zionism)..danaa)....Bingo. Love is blind. - American
Sean McBride
Uncleared comment to Annie regarding responsibility for Israeli behavior
Annie, - Sean McBride
We don't judge Germany of the 1930s and early 1940s by its minority of dissidents -- we judge it by its political and cultural majority -- by its official establishment. The majority controlled political events in Germany during that era. - Sean McBride
The bad beliefs and policies of a majority can't be mitigated by the good but ineffectual wishes of a minority. (But obviously dissenting minorities shouldn't be held responsible for the bad policies of majorities.) - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
This is how to route around obstructions on the Internet. - Sean McBride
I really like this comparison, Sean. It is quite true too. There were indeed strong streams of resistance against the nazi takeover of Germany. Some serious resistance came from the German aristocracy and there was quite a bit in the military as well. I have not seen a good review of the many resistors in germany among the intelligensia, for example. Lots of acid is poured on those we... more... - Danaa
I'll add one for you Sean - the left in israel. Can we use it as a yardstick to measure israel's state of being? obviously many liberal zionists did just that - and some are still trying. But it's become a losing argument 9cf. today's post at MW). - Danaa
Danaa -- of interest: 1. [Encyclopedia of German Resistance to the Nazi Movement] 2. [Opposition and Resistance in Nazi Germany] - Sean McBride
Regarding the second book: "In this innovative new study, Frank McDonough provides a clear account of opposition and resistance towards the Nazi regime from 1933 to 1945 and presents the historical debate surrounding this important aspect of the history of Nazi Germany. The book concentrates on the individuals and groups that resisted and opposed Nazi rule, including the Christian... more... - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
I am heavy into it on Mondoweiss -- which is why I haven't had time to post much here recently.
Making any headway? - Chu_ from Android
I will let others be the judge. :) - Sean McBride
Does anyone have any idea who commenter/contributor "Donald" really is or why MW gives him a platform? No matter what he says on P/I he has a very hypocritical bigot streak. - American
It's fair to ask people about their ethnic and religious backgrounds in Mideast debates, in my opinion. Donald is a mixed bag -- but aren't we all. - Sean McBride
donald johnson? didn't you watch Miami Vice. lol. I read Don's feed about the Jim Crow South & Israel just now. It's not really useful in comparing Israel to Jim Crow. Donald Johnson seems like a made up name, similar to Jimmy Johnson on MW. Their descriptions taken from MW. ( About Donald Johnson Donald Johnson is a regular commenter on this site, as "Donald.") (Jimmy Johnson is a Detroiter and quite tall. ) - Chu_
Chu....Donald has a feed? He is stuck on the Jim Crow south, I wonder if he's black? - American
sorry american, I meant his comments (not feed). I don't think he is black. He would have said so already. And I think it's been discussed in other MW articles. He said he was from the south, but no idea of his occupation, etc. - Chu_
Well Donald really has a corn cob up his ass about the south and southerners. He cant be as educated as he pretends to be if he doesnt know about slaves and indentured servants owned, bought and sold by Northerners also. Next time he gets on that I think I will bust his ass with my collection of US Historical Foundation's papers on slavery in the North. - American
There is a very good chance Donald is Jewish (or at least married to one, being philosemitic, which is the same thing in a way). I don't buy his protestations to the contrary, mainly because of the "code", which cannot be encrypted enough to mask the message. Every jewish person who osts on MW recognized that Donald must be either jewish himself or deeply immersed in the "culture". And... more... - Danaa
He's never truly angered by any situation. maybe he's medicated, as there are lot's of functioning zombies in the USA on an array of meds. Here's his first page of comments. WJ and Donald are perfect counterpoints. while Gaza is burning they debate if Jodi Rudoren really 'meant' what she said. or is this or that antisemitism. - Chu_
Well he is hiding whoever he really is for whatever purpose. Does MW think we have no whiffers and sniffers ourselves? The 'Jordon Street' guy posting an article today also has my sniffer on alert. - American
If MW is cheating or deceiving on authors they allow to publish articles and anyone finds out then its reputation is ruiined. - American
sean mcbride's name doesn't come up anymore when searching. MW needs maintenance. Pretty soon it'll be the called the rusty barnacle. - Chu_
I still have no problem searching my archive from my Mondoweiss page: - Sean McBride
could it be that mw has run out of server space? and the old comments get archived and are not searchable? - Chu_
Sean, but i you search your name in the upper right box, I don't get a result whereas I would American - Chu_
Try searching with "seanmcbride" -- without the space. - Sean McBride
ok. works I noticed that some commentors could not be searched any longer. i.e. america first - Chu_
Someone had asked me if I was america-first before and I just now saw some of america first's post on the Donald threads--and no that wasnt me. I was posted a comment or two during the time of american first in 2009 under American like I do now---but america-first did sound much like some of my comments. And he or she pissed off just as many faint hearts as I have - American
I asked. Lol. Moose never liked america first- calling him furst-cluss. - Chu_ from Android
I went to my profile and looked at when I first started MW,it was July 2009 and I only made 1 comment and then didnt comment again till 2010. But the kicker is....looking at my comments back then I am STILL saying the EXACT SAME things I said back then...the same things over and over. I must be a glutton for punishment. Total number of comments:... more... - American
I wish there was a profile left on american first cause the more I see his remarks the more it sounds like me----could I just not remember ever using a different name or two names at once? But woudnt I have had to have two different isp or mails to do that..which I didnt. Did we have to sign in or register back in 2009? Now I am wondering if that was me and I'm too senile to remember. - American
You didn't have to sign in back when. I used a variety of names at first - Chu_ from Android
Back in 2009 I was a regular at Steve Clemons the Washington Note and no where else but I am now thinking it is possible I dropped a comment at MW as america first and never went back to MW until Clemons more or less shut down TWN when he moved to the Atlantic and then I started commenting more at MW as I think I have to put a question mark about me as america first instead of a definite no--and say its entirely possible because do we sound so much alike---but the memory escapes me totally. - American
Mooser follows me around like a shadow commenting on my comments, maybe he thinks I am his hated america first. He really has a thing about anyone wih a American" identity" like I have noticed a lot of jews, zios and liberals have. They are always trying to work in an insult about it. - American
Mooser is one of the most ethnocentric (and narcissistic) personalities on Mondoweiss -- and he clearly holds anyone outside his "circle of trust" (clearly a tribal emotional construct) in contempt. - Sean McBride
Recently Mooser has been trying to blame Zionism on "whites," Europeans and "Aryans" -- while portraying Jews as the victims of this nefarious plot -- the real attitude and value system is easy to discern -- more exercises in blame-shifting and evasion of responsibility, after the manner of Noam Chomsky. - Sean McBride
My main problem with Mooser is that he has posted more than 16,000 comments that are all entirely devoid of meaningful content -- he finally admitted that he hasn't read a single book on Mideast politics, Israel, Zionism or Judaism. And he is actually more abusive, bullying and less capable of logical argument than hophmi. But when he bullies, he hits like a girl. :) It's like being assaulted by cotton candy -- all air. - Sean McBride
But Mondoweiss management apparently loves him -- his most inane comments seem to be posted immediately. Annie is an especially big fan. - Sean McBride
Overall, Mondoweiss is losing steam in the comments section -- I've noticed a gradual decline in quality -- but Phil Weiss's lead articles continue to be as sharp and valuable as ever. Mondoweiss is really all about Phil Weiss. A great blog and blog community is the shadow of a single blogger. - Sean McBride
Mw used to have some real good stuff. It peaked when they started moderating. - Chu_
Go back and look at threads and conversations in 2009 like I did--a world of difference---now the three flavors of MW are the Donalds, the trolls and the Mooser. Its most provocative and informed commenters are mostly or all gone. I think the Donald is MW's control troll. - American
Has Mooser ever said a word about dead Palestines? I'v never seen any if he has. - American
The key point to remember: on the Internet, all obstacles can be routed around -- but one must be proactive. - Sean McBride
Well when a party is dead, it's time to go somewhere else. Someone posted a TOO article recently. I saw a guy who used to post called rehmat who said he was banned from MW. He stills lives and has a website. - Chu_ from Android
Once people learn the nauseating facts about Israel they feel the need to explain it to the masses. It's like a curse. - Chu_ from Android
The most important strategy to pursue is to identify the best and most interesting minds on the Internet as a whole, reach out to them, communicate with them, and try to pull them together. Be proactive. Effective social networks don't simply happen spontaneously -- they have to be created. - Sean McBride
'' It's like a curse. - Chu_ from Android).......Yes it is. I swear when I happen to see certain people in the news now it's like I see their faces morph into ugly masks........maybe its my wife's influence she refers to them all as 'the monsters'. - American
I tried to send a note to Rehmat but I need facebook, twitter or wordpress to post a comment. Anyone have these to notify him of MWFF? - Chu_
Chu -- we need to use Google (and other methods) to track down the email addresses of all commenters on the Internet who have made the most valuable comments on Mideast politics. Be proactive. Try to pull them together. Combine their resources and insights. - Sean McBride
dan crowther to donald: -- - Chu_
Sean McBride
Jay Rosen: Israel, Gaza, War & Data … Easily most important thing I read today about media coverage of the war.
I have been missing jay Rosen's articulate and in depth takes on the media corruption. Hasn't he joined First Look? - Danaa
Jay is an adviser to First Look Media. - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
Annie Robbins and Mooser
She is doing it again, right on schedule -- trying to block me from engaging in direct debate with Mooser -- and she is becoming emotional and angry about fair intellectual challenges to Mooser. This should not be the function of a moderator. - Sean McBride
Check it out for yourself: - Sean McBride
Mooser is a strange emotional hot button for her. And the Mondoweiss article on which she is commenting, by Benjamin Silverman, directly challenges her own beliefs. - Sean McBride
My comment to Annie: - Sean McBride
I think Benjamin Silverman knows the Jewish "community" better than you do -- he speaks as an insider. And he made no effort to blame Zionism on "colonialism" or to filter Zionism through a Marxist critique or any other anti-capitalist or anti-imperialist narrative or conceptual framework -- he goes much deeper than that. - Sean McBride
(All serious students of Zionism, by the way, know that many of the early Zionist leaders were themselves Marxists.) - Sean McBride
Regarding Mooser: I am asking him to defend his claim that Jews are the victims or tools of Zionism -- an assertion that makes no sense on the surface or after close inspection. So far he hasn't lifted a finger to explain himself. The worldwide Jewish establishment itself has been the main promoter of Zionism. - Sean McBride
Why don't you let Mooser speak for himself, debate for himself and express his own thoughts? He has never been shy about about challenging other commenters here (often with a great deal of verbal abuse). I want to understand why he is making the claims that he has made -- they make absolutely no sense to me. - Sean McBride
END COMMENT - Sean McBride
((All serious students of Zionism, by the way, know that many of the early Zionist leaders were themselves Marxists.)) This is incorrect. - WJones
As in the above, as you know, sometimes you put your case in terms that are too provocatory. It is part of your style, and it's not a surprise it will get those reactions. The reactions are also not always 100% correct either though. But whatever. This is what comment sections are for. - WJones
I like ancient Judaism, but there are aspects I am uncomfortable with, like parts of the Book of Esther. This is all coming from a moral, human rights viewpoint. - WJones
WJones, what is there to like so much in ancient judaism other than the obvious story telling abilities of its adherents? - Danaa
I think some of the early laws as put forth in deutoronomy make sense from hygienic/health/ethics viewpoints. The ethics may or may not have been "revolutionary". In all likelihood, it was more "evolutionary", springing from an amalgamation of beliefs and evovlving concepts of individual and society's cross responsibility. - Danaa
So far, so good, but here is the bad part - every single jewish law, no matter how seemingly enlightened, was to be applied in a strictly tribal context. There was no way to separate the "laws" from the jewish tribe. Christianity that came along later tried to do that, ditching in the process many of the "mitzvahs" but retaining the OT as a sort of a "holy" text. UThat is the key reason... more... - Danaa
Sean, I honestly think you should stop provoking Mooser. I'm really not sure what the purpose of it is. he never maintained or professed to a persona of 'debate". It's not his thing at all, and that may be why Annie is annoyed. You seem to be pushing just because. personally i don't think anything can be gained from it, other than point scoring. In light of what's going on in Gaza that seems a bit unimportant. At least to me. - Danaa
Sean's topic is OK, and it's something discussed normally on MW, but he should approach it with more sensitivity, as it's a delicate topic. - WJones
I also agree with WJones - to claim that ALL early zionists were "marxists" is an argument that can be shot full of holes in no time. The ones from Germany certainly weren't; people like Henry Siegman's father. Many others, too numerous to name. marxisim was just one stream, largely confined to the Russian/Polish segment. By stating it so unequivocally you open yourself to criticism that you will not be able to rebut. What on earth for are these generalizations? just to provoke? - Danaa
Also detracts from the claim that the roots of zionism are - and always were - to be found in the core of judaism. This in the sense of "necessary" element but not "sufficient". Modern zionsim defined itself as a secular world view, in line with modern nationalist ideas that emerged in the 19th century. But the "old" zionism, as it is found in Judaism as a religion, were fundamentally... more... - Danaa
I said that many -- not ALL -- early Zionist leaders were Marxists -- and that is a fact. There a large volume of scholarly literature out there on the subject that is easy to pull up. I don't make these kinds of assertions lightly. Google it for yourself -- especially Google Books. - Sean McBride
I am talking about first-rate scholarship from elite universities, by the way -- Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Cambridge University Presses. This subject has been gone over in great depth repeatedly -- the role of Marxism and socialism during the early development of Zionism and Israel. - Sean McBride
Anyways, to elucidate a bit further, it is my contention that the "graft" is what made zionism as we see it now so toxic - it feeds off the "host" as a parasite would (Judaism) while incorporating anachronistic and frozen ideas of the last two centuries that stop the new "graft" from becoming a successful new 'species". Zionism - as it evolved in israel - was a misbegotten and mishapen... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- is it your opinion that expressing disagreements with Mooser over matters of substance is "provoking" him? Why so? - Sean McBride
Sean, whatever the scholars are saying, Israel, as it came to be, was an amalgamation of many streams of thought. Again the german zionists WERE NOT for the most part marxist, even if they may have been "socialists". huge difference between the two. Indeed in the early israel, the two movements lived side by side but did not mix up all that much. It's in the kibbutzim that foems of... more... - Danaa
IMO, you are needling the wrong guy. he is not and never tried to portray himself as a debater. Why not take on someone more so inclined? you should have debated Shmuel when he was around, who is much more into certain types of debates (when the spirit moved him, which it hasn't of late). If you keep chasing Mooser it just looks bad, and that may be what Annie was responding to. She... more... - Danaa
I don't really want to debate Mooser -- I would simply like to see if he can make a single sensible statement about the relations between Judaism and Zionism, and between Jews and Zionism. So far he has produced a bit of empty snark and nothing else. Perhaps you find this kind of behavior amusing, but I don't. And he really got my attention with that obscene Talmudic curse. - Sean McBride
When I say "Marxist," by the way, I really mean Marx-centric -- at that end of the political spectrum -- not necessarily dogmatic Marxists but influenced by Marxist-style thinking. WJones -- did you say earlier that you yourself are a Marxist or did I imagine that? - Sean McBride
Ok, I understand you have an issue with Mooser and him resorting to low-level "talmudic' snarks is definitely a problem. I just think you will not get anywhere with him - not only will he not apologize - but if he unhappy with his own unseemly outburst, he'll just slither away again. It's what [some] people do when they feel they were provoked to behave badly. They hold it against the one who provoked them. - Danaa
Danaa -- the fact that you portray expressing honest intellectual disagreements with Mooser as "needling" baffles me. That is not my intent. I am asking Mooser to respond to his assertions in the same way that Mooser asks, say, hophmi, to respond to *his* assertions. Needling is what Mooser specializes in -- that is the only thing he does. - Sean McBride
I don't know if you noticed, Sean, but we, humans, often like best those who make us look good by being on our best behavior. - Danaa
Mooser will not respond if he doesn't want to. that's the bottom line. You can't make him engage against his will, just he couldn't make hophmi - sya something he wasn't inclined to do. There will be no satisfaction for you here - Mooser will not pick up the glove or agree to a duel. He'll walk away and that's that. Which will only end up make you more annoyed. - Danaa
This Mooser deal strikes me as incredibly strange -- what the Mondoweiss comment section is mostly about is people debating one another, exploring differences. Everyone understands the ground rules. Why would anyone need to step in and try to protect Mooser from dealing with reasonable feedback to his own provocative statements? - Sean McBride
I don't care if he walks away or refuses to defend himself -- I am happy simply to correct what I think are wrong or even absurd statements made by him -- to not let those statements stand without a reasonable response. - Sean McBride
Someone will step in to protect Mooser because they see value in him and want to keep him around. For better or for worse, a choice was made and they prefer him. The reasons don't matter except to you, only the outcome does. It's like a popularity contest, you know - someone likes him more. C'est la vie, I say. - Danaa
Sean, i also think you should pick someone your own size when it comes to debates. Mooser doesn't do tcertasin kind of wrestling, which is frustrating but doesn't make it any less true. - Danaa
As far as the cnasty comment mooser made that time, you should have taken an issue with that through the MW moderators. they probably could get Mooser to apologize if the spirit moved him. - Danaa
Danaa -- you are adopting the same position as Annie -- Mooser is too weak and pathetic to defend himself, even as he pours out endless abuse and snark towards others. He needs to be mothered, as if he were an infant. I really can't play that kind of game. - Sean McBride
'' Anyways, to elucidate a bit further, it is my contention that the "graft" is what made zionism as we see it now so toxic - it feeds off the "host" as a parasite would (Judaism) while incorporating anachronistic and frozen ideas of the last two centuries..danaa)....Agree I think. I have no in depth knowledge of judaism but from what I do know it seems to me certain beliefs/teachings were taken from Judaism and 'built upon' or expanded by zionism.. - American
A gentile friend of ours who married a jewish man after her first husband died told me after his death that over the years he had 'distanced himself 'somewhat' from Judaism because he came to see it as 'too dark and oppressive". There was some pressure on her by jewish friends regarding funeral type services for him but she didnt give in to it and had no funeral service and had him cremated as that was his wish and instructions were. - American
has it occured to you, Sean that Mooser is really not a "fighter" in the same mold you are? he may be a much older man, for all we know, or someone with his own issues that prevent him from coming out and taking on the world. Not everyone wants to fight, no matter how much you wish them to. He doesn't want to and you simply can't force him. That is not "mothering". That is simply... more... - Danaa
Mooser not a fighter, eh lady? "Go boil your head. Not that it'll do any good, but please, give it a try. Remember to wipe your head when you get it out of there." - Mooser to sean - pepsi
If there were ever an important time to examine Judaism and Jewish supremacist ideology, it would be in the middle of a fucking genocide. A "distraction"? Only in Jewish supremacist land. - pepsi
pepsi - just FYI - that comment was not a "fight' though they may have been fighting words. This was an outburst, almost kindergarten level. Something got his goat on that day and Sean just may have stepped in it as Mooser was looking for a steam valve. Real fights are done quite differently - everyone knows that when the cursing comes, the word fight ends . - Danaa
Ok -- I am going to let that pepsi comment stand because he said precisely what was on my mind. - Sean McBride
And you can delete this one or leave it: No danaa, mooser rang the bell to start the match as soon as he told him to go boil his head in water. - pepsi
Danaa -- if Mooser is not a fighter, then why does he use so many fighting words in his comments? He clearly enjoys verbal abuse and personal attacks -- many of them are mean and humorless. Seriously -- your ear for language and personality is at least as good as mine. Review his Mondoweiss archive for many hundreds of instances of what I am referring to. - Sean McBride
In any case, this is not about Mooser really -- it's about the tendency of some Jews (like Noam Chomsky and Mooser) to blame everyone but Jewish Zionists for Zionism. It's an important issue to address. How can there be any significant changes in the Jewish establishment on these issues until that establishment acknowledges its own key role in pushing Zionism to the front and center of Jewish life? That is why I am willing to argue about this issue at length, and not be intimidated by shallow snark. - Sean McBride
"" How can there be any significant changes in the Jewish establishment on these issues until that establishment acknowledges its own key role in pushing Zionism to the front and center of Jewish life? ...Sean)......The establishment isnt going to ever change. The jewish leaders have been basically a Mafia fifedom for 3000 years. Its the tribal collective that has to change and reject... more... - American
((When I say "Marxist," by the way, I really mean Marx-centric -- at that end of the political spectrum -- not necessarily dogmatic Marxists but influenced by Marxist-style thinking. WJones -- did you say earlier that you yourself are a Marxist or did I imagine that? )) If they don't have Marx's dogmas, then they are not really Marx-"ist". If you mean Marxist-influenced, then one might... more... - WJones
Mooser, like Noam Chomsky, has tried to shift blame for Israeli behavior on anyone but Jews and the Jewish lobby -- that is really what this debate is about. Mooser has even argued that there are no significant connections between Zionism and Judaism -- and Annie has repeatedly rushed to Mooser's support to try to defend that argument. It is important to get the truth here sorted out.... more... - Sean McBride
'' The Jewish establishment is responsible for the beliefs and behavior of Israel and Zionism. - Sean McBride)....Yea it is and the tribe is also responsible for following and supporting zionism. this as in EVERTHING ELSE....most Jews will claim they are VICTIMS of it. Victims, victims, victims, innocent victims.....always always always. Its sickening. If there has ever been... more... - American
American said it. They are hostages. It's not their fault never is. Probably Europe's fault. And catholics. Etc - Chu_ from Android
Mooser finally tipped me over the edge on this issue -- it's always someone else's fault. I've had enough. - Sean McBride
This will no doubt be considered anti semitic by some but it needs to be put out there. It is imperative that zionist and their followers be marginalized in nations, even relegated to the social and political ghettos of the US 40's and 50's if necessary. And by that I do not mean they should be deprived of any democratic 'rights' or punished in any way but they must be viewed as... more... - American
If pro-Israel activists and militants (especially the Jewish Zionists among them) keep attacking and abusing their political adversaries as they have been during recent years, matters will be sorted out on this issue in a natural and spontaneous manner. The objects of their attacks will push back hard and shun them. All communications will cease. Zionism will be finished as a legitimate political cause in most of the world. - Sean McBride
Many people will simply want to get pro-Israel militants out of their lives. After endless hassles with Benjamin Netanyahu, Obama and Kerry probably already feel that way. We've heard enough of your hysteria and demands -- no more. Go away. We have our own lives to live. We don't wish you harm -- but we are not going to permit you to inflict any more harm on us -- mentally, psychologically, culturally, financially, physically, etc. Time to separate. - Sean McBride
In the same way that Israelis want to separate from Palestinians, Americans and Europeans may want to separate from Zionists. Why would they want their lives to revolve around Israel's never-ending conflicts? - Sean McBride
There are both overlaps and disagreements inherent in the relationship between the nationalism and the religion. Thus, to equate or reject the inherent relationship between the two is problematic. If you position is to say that one is implicit in the other, and Annie's and Mooser's position is that each is not implicit in the other, then both of your positions are incorrect, and that... more... - WJones
""Resolution can only come by a sympathetic approach to each other, and also a sympathetic, constructive approach to positive aspects of your topic. - WJones)....A sympathic approach is not going to fix the israel/ zionist problem. It is also not going to fix the jew's cultural or religious problems re Judaism either. Whatever the problems are are an 'in-house' problem among the... more... - American
Sean McBride
On Bill Maher and Sam Harris
Bill Maher and Sam Harris agree that the Old Testament is a foul, toxic, psychopathic and genocidal document. Zionism is based on Old Testament myths, symbols, legends and memes. - Sean McBride
Are Maher and Harris capable of connecting a few dots or are their minds strictly compartmentalized on these matters? Have they heard the torrent of maniacal and bloodcurdling Old Testament rhetoric that has been flowing from the tongues of racist rabbis and militant settlers in Israel? - Sean McBride
These two dudes do not have their act together. On intellectual and ideological grounds they strongly oppose Abrahamic cultism -- on emotional grounds, they feel strong ethnic loyalties to Israel and Jewish nationalism. To deal with these contradictory attitudes, they throw logic and reason right out the window. - Sean McBride
Bill maher is a poster child of cognitive dissonance. But what enables him to carry on in his contradictory sermons is a simple fact - he does not speak or reads Hebrew. In fact, hardly any Americans do, Jews included. If they did, I think they would be shocked well and good at what's spews forth in Israeli social media, their papers and the rabbis' sermons. What we need are some full time translators. (too bad there's only one Dena Shunra). - Danaa
Danaa -- one can find quite a bit of that material in English. See, for instance: - Sean McBride
taxi: Man, you haven’t got a clue. But of course you will insist that you are the King of Egypt and therefore you know Egypt best. - Chu_
Well Taxi, Seeing as you’ve been 100% wrong about everything that would or would not happen in Egypt over the part 12 months, I won’t take that critique to heart....(cont.) - Chu_
I like Taxi but she has been wrong all down the line on Egypt. I tried to tell her that the Egyptian army she revers was nothing but another corrupt 'ruling wing in Egypt and that Sisi would end up as another dictatorial President of Egypt. She cant be objective about it because she has all these ideas about the past 'glory' of Arabs and Egypt. - American
Taxi lost me completely when she began to defend the atrocities of the current Egyptian regime. I haven't paid attention to her comments since. - Sean McBride
Taxi managed to remind me that some Arab regimes may in fact be much worse on human rights issues than Israel. From a propaganda standpoint, she made a terrible mistake. - Sean McBride
Shingo's list pretty much summed it up. - Chu_
Great set of comments by Shingo here. - Sean McBride
It's nice to be able to comment on Mondoweiss articles and comments here with no delays in posting -- instant feedback and fluid interaction -- almost no moderation. - Sean McBride
I think I was the first person to challenge Taxi's strange comments on the Egyptian coup -- some Mondoweissers were shocked -- they were Taxi fans. I don't see anyone trying to defend her views now. - Sean McBride
Castellio is very well informed on the politics of Egypt. He/she does not comment often on MW, but when he/she does, I pay attention. - ChasMark
It's a funny thing about Egypt. The way so many in the west that were all in awe of the Arab Spring kind of went along with the Junta take-over. I do think that a lot of the weirdness has to do with the ambivalence about muslims in general and the Muslim brotherhood, in particular. Taxis has an almost visceral hatred of the brotherhood (not that any of us are up and about defending... more... - Danaa
I had discussions with some Egyptian Christians who are happy about Sisi's takeover, although I discussed my opposition with them too. The underlying issue is that there are conflicts across the Mideast between secular and conservative religious forces. In a broad sense, I support the secular forces, and Sisi was more secular. On the other hand, Morsi was somewhat democratic and he was... more... - WJones
If egyptian christians are happy with sisi they arent very christian. sentencing 500 people to death en masse even though they werent guilty of any actual crimes and just beause they belong to the muslim brotherhood isnt christian. - American
Danaa -- in that discussion about [Wikipedia; August 2013 Rabaa Massacre] I found myself thinking three subversive thoughts that would upset many anti-Zionists -- 1. I might prefer living in Tel Aviv than in any Arab capital. 2. I am not certain that all Arab nations get what Western democratic culture is all about. 3. I am not on the same page with Taxi with regard to basic human rights. - Sean McBride
This is what Taxi defended: "The raids were described by Human Rights Watch as the most serious incident of mass unlawful killings in modern Egyptian history. According to the Egyptian Health Ministry, 638 people were killed on 14 August, of which 595 were civilians and 43 police officers, with at least 3,994 injured." - Sean McBride
I'm not sure if this has been posted already. Worth reading, imo. "Egypt's Propagandists and the Gaza Massacre." - weareone
"As Israel’s murderous machine inflicts terror and death on the Palestinian people with the collaboration of the US government and its principal Arab allies, not least of which is the Saudi clan of 20,000 princes and princesses, a huge campaign of hate on the official and unofficial level has been launched in Egypt. Egypt’s regime is one of the two principal jailers of Gaza Palestinians in the largest concentration camp in the world." - Sean McBride
Persuasive article by Joseph Massad. - Sean McBride
Yes, and I haven't heard anyone discuss these issues more clearly and passionately than George Galloway. - weareone
Sean, you made a point that I think should have gotten more discussion - the way in which secularism and democracy in Arabic countries can find themselves at odds. I do believe this is a dynamic that's both uncomfortable and unfamiliar to most people in the West, and taxi did us all a service by bringing this issue to the fore. it does seem that democracy, western style, can be... more... - Danaa
I differed with taxi in her reading of the situation in Egypt as I felt that a transition period with Morsi in charge would not tip over into overly religious take-over. It was, however, obvious that Morsi people simply had no experience running a government and made numerous mistakes which hurt the economy even more. As a result there arose a reaction among the bourgeosie to restore... more... - Danaa
Danaa -- your cultural/political analysis is right on the money -- but I find it difficult to work up much sympathy for these societies, nonetheless. Probably that makes me a shallow and arrogant American/Westerner. I do know for certain that I wouldn't want to make my home in those societies. We've managed to work out accommodations between religion and secularism that function quite well -- that permit all of us to go about our business unmolested by zealots on either side of that divide. - Sean McBride
(( I might prefer living in Tel Aviv than in any Arab capital. ~Sean)) I heard that Malta, Tunisia, Lebanon, Jordan, and Morocco are modern and safe enough. I don't know enough about Algeria, Egypt, peacetime Syria and each of the Gulf countries to say. Malta's native language is a variety of Arabic. - WJones
Certainly I would love to visit many Arab capitals and cities, in the spirit of Anthony Bourdain. But most Americans in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, Manhattan, Boston/Cambridge, etc. probably feel a greater affinity for Tel Aviv, in terms of vibes and values, than with Cairo, Baghdad or Riyadh. They certainly wouldn't feel comfortable with the government massacre of hundreds of... more... - Sean McBride
Baghdad is a warzone and Riyadh is a serious theocracy. I am talking about Casablanca, Malta, and Tunis. - WJones
Those are cities resplendent with cultural richness, but I prefer leading American and European cities, on the basis of vibes and values. These are matters of personal aesthetic preference -- I am not claiming that any major city is objectively better or superior to any other major city. We all have our tastes. I do know that I feel a strong aversion to whatever values in Cairo enabled the massacre of hundreds of Egyptian civilians in a public square. - Sean McBride
A few years ago my father sailed across the Mediterranean and visited Malta -- he loved it and made some good friends there. - Sean McBride
Sure, in terms of culture, Tel Aviv has a young "vibe" and lots of artists, beaches, tourists, intelligent scholars, etc. But it's also involved in oppressing another nationality, which makes the other cities I mentioned more attractive. Cyprus would be pretty good, but it's really more Greek and Turkish than Arabic. Damascus is rated as safer than the Israeli State for Americans to... more... - WJones
Beirut -- I've heard that is a wonderful city, very international, tolerant, somewhat like Paris, perhaps, in general feel. Believe me: I am making no effort to defend the political views of many or most Tel Aviv residents. But I do think there are some important aspects of Tel Aviv culture that are in sync with the culture of cutting-edge American cities. Certainly that is an asset that Israel wields to its advantage. - Sean McBride
((I might prefer living in Tel Aviv than in any Arab capital. ~Sean)) OK. For me the human rights issue of crushing another nationality is enough to make me prefer another city that is also modern and tolerant but is not doing that. Plus, I am Christian, and although Beirut has conflict, if you took out the safety issue, there is enough tolerance and Christians to make Beirut acceptable. Anyway, Malta is generally Christian I think. - WJones
Would it be fair to say that Israel respects higher standards of human rights within Israel's recognized borders than Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and some other Arab nations? (I don't know the details about Jordan and Lebanon.) - Sean McBride
Malta: population 400,000 (the size of a small major US city), Religion: Catholic, Language: Maltese, a dialect of Arabic. - WJones
WIKIPEDIA: The Maltese language (Maltese: Malti) is the constitutional national language of Malta, having become official, however, only in 1934. Previously, Italian was the official and cultural language of Malta, in its Sicilian variant from the 12th century, and in its Tuscan variant from the 16th century. Alongside Maltese, English (imposed by the British occupiers after 1800) is... more... - WJones
Malta is a comfortable and hospitable nation that understands the virtues of keeping a low profile -- somewhat like Switzerland. - Sean McBride
((Would it be fair to say that Israel respects higher standards of human rights within Israel's recognized borders than Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and some other Arab nations?)) You have to remember that the Israeli State has 50 laws discriminating against Palestinians. They can't own land or found new cities and commonly can't restore the ones that have been exiled in the Nakba. Egypt... more... - WJones
Regarding the attitudes towards and treatment of Palestinians by Arab nations in the current Gaza conflict and in recent years -- how do they strike you? - Sean McBride
They are generally pretty sympathetic, but are basically helpless. You can talk to Arabs from other countries about this and it will be usually like that. They don't feel like they can succeed in going against the US and the Isr. State. - WJones
Israelis like to blame other Arab countries for not caring enough, but that is not the case, except maybe at the government level. - WJones
Sean McBride
Alex Kane: Also much worse than genocidal post on @TimesofIsrael? Editor of @IsraelHayomEng--largest paper in Israel--saying "return Gaza to stone age"
Off Topic--National March on Washington tomorrow- August 2 at 12:30pm in front of the White House-- over 6000 signed up on Facebook so far - Also tomorrow-rallies in Los Angeles, Ca. Albuquerque, NM and Jacksonville, Fla--please spread the word. - weareone
Good plan - too bad I'm not in washington, but will help spread the word. - Danaa
Thanks, Danaa! - weareone
Good news. Thx w.a.o. - Chu_ from Android
You're welcome! :) - weareone
Sean McBride
Twitter is for fast brains who get the main points instantly.
They don't need a dissertation. - Sean McBride
The best minds on Twitter and the minds who follow them. - Sean McBride
You ever read the bios; everybody is the best mind on Twitter. - NOT THE CRICKET
"best minds" is a category one needs to populate with instances according to one's personal criteria. But automated methods for doing this are improving impressively. - Sean McBride
Doctoral dissertations are fine and necessary -- but not all the time or even most of the time. Often a brief crisp sentence will do. - Sean McBride
And in any case, one can use Twitter to post pointers to great dissertations. A few keywords in the tweet will either catch one's eye or not. - Sean McBride
A large portion of people I'd label best minds, don't bother with Twitter, or social media in general. - NOT THE CRICKET
Who are they? - Sean McBride
Sean, I don't know most of them because they don't bother with Twitter. ;) A few, that have accounts but lack any serious activity that could be considered coming from the best of minds: Rich Hickey, Bret Victor aka Worry Dreams, Dyske Suematsu, Jack Cheng, the Professor by some other name. - NOT THE CRICKET
Cricket -- thanks for the response. I asked you because I am always on the lookout for interesting minds I may have overlooked. And both you and the prof are right: many of the best minds in the world are not on Twitter or any social media platform. They tend to keep very low profiles. - Sean McBride
One on Twitter (and formerly Friendfeed) that I really respect is Mike Amundsen (@mamund), for his work on data formats and Hypermedia API's. - NOT THE CRICKET
Right -- I've been following Mike "Hypermedia" Amundsen's Friendfeed feed for years. - Sean McBride
Then you should love my new service. It consists of seemingly random strings that actually point to the deepest secrets of the universe. That is, if you are smart enough to figure out their true meaning. The location of this service is of course self evident to the initiated. - Todd Hoff
Only certain selected ET species will get what that is all about -- the ones that communicate with one another, just for fun and because they are bored, through complex puns and allusions constructed from bits and pieces of all the natural and artificial languages and symbol systems in the universe. - Sean McBride
"faster brains, younger women, older whiskey, and more money." or something like that - Greg GuitarBuster
Now that is a value system one can earnestly embrace. :) - Sean McBride
LOL Todd. I agree Stage 3 RESTful services are pretty much a useless abstraction, with only a few use cases. When a Stage 2 REST-based RPC works just as well for 98% of cases and is far easier to mentally reason about. One significant use case, I've found recently is for allowing others to attach external self-describing services with little or no effort on the developers part. Think Friendfeed, IFTTT, Zapier, etc. that integrate with your services instead of supporting your services. - NOT THE CRICKET
None of the very smart people I know use Twitter. But then, they are not out there trying to attract "followers". Too busy figuring things out..... - Danaa
I always thought Twitter is great for the celebritologists. And politicians. And OK, Max Blumenthal (because he has to). - Danaa
Twitter is a trully fantastic tool for teenagers - mirrors their actual socialization skills and apptitudes (well, most of them....). Goes very well with texting and sexting. It's also great for the BORG society - excellent tool for connecting the hive out there picking nectar from the field for reasons unknown. Only problem is, what if there is Deranged Bee Syndrome? - Danaa
Danaa -- Twitter is not a medium for doing deep thinking -- it's a medium for providing quick pointers to deep thinking on other platforms. - Sean McBride
There are cheese puffs in the closet. - NOT THE CRICKET
If I had a column in a paper or a blog out in the visible world, I'd probably use Twitter too. basically anyone in the public eye - and many who just work with the public (as in providing a service) finds twitter very useful as a kind of 'advertisement' to direct traffic to their site. No disagreement there. - Danaa
Danaa -- does this link open correctly for you? [Twitter: Sean McBride: following] I wouldn't follow these feeds if I didn't think they were valuable. Do they fail to meet your standards? Some of these people I would describe as smart -- in fact, super-smart. - Sean McBride
It's interesting to see who various Twitter users are following -- for instance: [Twitter: Stephen Walt: following] - Sean McBride
[Twitter: KurzweilAINews: following] - Sean McBride
Sean, in truth I follow no one on Twitter. For reasons that have everything to do with time management and nothing with my opinions re twitter. Most of the time I am signed out so the link you provided does not open for me. They keep wanting me to sign in and I keep not wanting to. I am right now trying to get done with several essay snippets. can't promise anything to anybody or check in to anywhere till I'm done. Don't worry about my standards. I just live in my own bubble world, like everyone else. - Danaa
Danaa -- time management is precisely what motivates me to use Twitter: it permits one to track and prioritize the most important new events and ideas in any domain with the least time and effort. It also enables you to break out of your bubble by scanning and listening to the social networks of others -- including adversaries. - Sean McBride
Steve Perlman, is another name to know. - NOT THE CRICKET from iPhone
To say the least: [Wikipedia; Steve Perlman] - Sean McBride
Another: Bram Cohen - NOT THE CRICKET
[Wikipedia; Bram Cohen] "Bram Cohen (born October 12, 1975) is an American computer programmer, best known as the author of the peer-to-peer (P2P) BitTorrent protocol, as well as the first file sharing program to use the protocol, also known as BitTorrent. He is also the co-founder of CodeCon, organizer of the San Francisco Bay Area P2P-hackers meeting, and the co-author of Codeville." - Sean McBride
Sean McBride
The current user experience on Mondoweiss is less than optimal
Repeatedly, interesting conversations are stopped dead in their tracks -- threads are closed, posts are slow to clear or are not cleared at all. - Sean McBride
If Mondoweiss wants to be primarily a news platform, and not a news AND discussion platform, that's fine. That could even be a smart editorial decision -- one that I would understand and respect. But the discussion of the topics that Mondoweiss raises may have to migrate to other platforms. - Sean McBride
Trying to pursue the discussion about the relations between Judaism and Zionism is like pulling teeth -- endless obstacles. Discussions should move quickly and freely -- as close to real time as possible. - Sean McBride
i notice my comments get held up as others breeze through. Damn it, if I could have only been more like Donald! ugh... - Chu_
Have you noticed that Mooser has been permitted to flood Mondoweiss with comments that are extremely abusive and completely devoid of substantive content? One or two moderators there are making very bad decisions. Mooser is actually a more abusive personality than hophmi. - Sean McBride
Mine too Chu....and a lot get disappeared....and they are not even anti semitic. But they come from a nonethnocentric 'gentile brain'...therefore they are rejected. - American
haven't noticed since i dont always read what he says. He's into being funny, but I am more concerned with facts and people that provide useful information. - Chu_
Mooser does a Jon Stewart like routine on jews and judaism. - American
Mooser is funny in the same way that Joan Rivers is funny -- his humor is based on ridiculing, demeaning and bullying other people. His main problem is that he doesn't seem to possess any substantive knowledge on any topic. He thinks Zionists are a threat to Jews -- I get that. I only need to read a few of his comments to understand his message. When I read a comment, I want to learn something new and important about the world. - Sean McBride
Mooser basically says the same thing over and over. ..zionism is the enemy of judaism and jews. Trying to think if I have ever seen a jew say zionism is an enemy of all other people also. Cant remember one ever saying that. - American
Mooser's critique of Zionism is 100% Judeocentric. Most of us don't look at the world through such a singleminded ethnocentric lens. - Sean McBride
Something I've noticed: sometimes moderators will get involved in debates with commenters. When they run into problems in defending their arguments they will use their power as moderators to end the conversation. That can be annoying. (I have run into this problem several times with one moderator in particular, who is an emotional fan of Mooser -- and who seems to be on a mission to protect him from fair and open debate. She is using her power as a moderator to run interference for him.) - Sean McBride
ha. say no more. Annie used to be worse when she first came to MW. She must have been hired as the in-comment moderator, because she was a complete nag. - Chu_
And I tried so hard to conceal her identity. :) - Sean McBride
Annie has repeatedly tried to twist a critique of the Jewish religious establishment (which is militantly pro-Zionist) into a supposed attack on all Jews. It's really bizarre -- on that issue she comes across as a hardcore member of the Israel lobby. This tactic is combined with a good deal of emotional affection for Mooser and with the clear agenda of protecting him from rational... more... - Sean McBride
I stopped communicating to Annie a long time ago (she was even on FF for a spell). When Slater called her a dumb goy bitch (something like that) in his direct email to her she wanted sympathy from the crowd. aww, how sad. - Chu_
In my previous debate with Mooser, Annie repeatedly tried to interject herself between me and him, using half-baked and illogical arguments -- you could tell she was really upset -- she was treating him like a little brother who was unable to defend himself (which is largely true). I want to get into it with Mooser, toe-to-toe. Let's see how that goes. - Sean McBride
She likes his jokes and I guess he adds a sense of humor to an often dreary commenting section. It's best to get out of Mondoweiss and get some fresh air once in a while- it's unhealthy to stay submerged for too long. -And she always seemed to act like some sort of mother goose, I would scratch my head as to who put her in charge. Anyway, she's MW's dog - but does she actually get compensated? I hope so. - Chu_
It's easy to see how this goes: a moderator receives a comment in a debate that he or she has entered, can't handle the comment, lets it sit for awhile in the queue while mulling it over, then just lets it die -- fails to clear it. Convenient. - Sean McBride
Mooser can be funny now and then, but a little bit goes a long way. The person beneath that persona is as grim as death (see his Talmudic hate speech). And what he knows about Mideast politics could fit on the head of a pin. - Sean McBride
hey. related to this thread: Annie Robbins July 31, 2014 at 2:27 pm in reply to kalithea kalithea, truth be told, when we're really backed up on comments and people are waiting long periods of time, i can clear ten of them in the time it takes me to clear a long one like yours. plus, you have the habit, unlike others, to discuss topics that many find very inflammatory which means they... more... - Chu_
Humm...mine arent long but they must require careful - American
couldn't they have a system where if 3 people flag it, it will be quarantined are read by the moderator later. if the system was abused by trolls, they could take their 'flagging' veto away. something like that anyway. - Chu_
Slater never called Annie the exact things Chu said, although he did talk down to her about her intelligence ( - WJones
I was paraphrasing Jones. - Chu_
Jones ---FYI-----What Slater called annie, this how a supposed intelligent man talks to a woman?----->Annie Robbins January 8, 2012 at 11:11 pm MRW, slater responded to me by email:..."" I said I wouldn't respond to any further comments on Mondoweiss, and I meant it--but that doesn't preclude a private response. You are an ignorant vulgarian, with no intellectual record or standing. You... more... - American
I remember seeing that message and those words from Slater. They lowered my opinion of him considerably - what were disagreements about position and opinions, suddenly acquired this extra tone of nastiness. This is a very different man from someone, say, like henry Siegman. Slater came across as defensive, egotistical, petty, arrogant and nasty. Not exactly jewish nobility, which... more... - Danaa
If Seigman is "Jewish nobility" the tribe is in a lot more trouble that initially thought. Where has he been for the past 50 years? He just noticed that Israelis are oppressing Gazans? After sitting on the knees of zionist leaders he just now figured out that zionism was racism from the very beginning? - ChasMark
You don't appear to know much about Henry Siegman -- take the trouble to look up and read his writings over the last few decades. - Sean McBride
You're right, I did not do that, just listened carefully to the posted video/interview. I was not impressed. It sounded like rear-guard apologetics. Goodman did NOT help the cause by dwelling on a blow-by-blow of Siegman's miraculous escape from Germany. How many Ukrainians "survived" Holodomor? -- oh, that's right: dead people don't get to re-write history. - ChasMark
Give him a chance -- he's a serious thinker and right on most issues. - Sean McBride
I'll give him a chance when he takes up Paul Eisner's plea to allow full and unencumbered research into holocaust. - ChasMark
Slater spat on her particularly because she's not Jewish. It was so obvious and great that she posted his screed for everyone to see. He looked like a churlish litte punter. -He would not have said those things is she were part of the clam. - Chu_
Chu - exactly. Also, Chasmark - you really do need to read up on henry Siegman. Few, very few people made the kind of transition he did - from a leader of the jewish establishment, the son of a man who is recognized as one of the founders of European zionism in germany, a man with impeccable jewish credentials, to someone who believes the zionist project has been totally deraied into... more... - Danaa
I believe it was Siegman who wrote in The Nation 5 years ago that the US should 'force' a settlement on Israel.....may have him confused with someone else but name rigns a bell. - American
Danaa, American, Sean -- I am re-penting -- thinking again. I have read a bit more by and about Seigman and AM impressed. Although I am not Jewish, I am very keenly aware of the pressures that can be brought to bear. - ChasMark
Here's a Question
I replied to Phil's comment about Jews needing to separate zionism from Jews and Judaism. - American
What I said was that acvitist Jews need to 'get out in front' of zionism by' attacking the zionist' in their protest as a mafia like entity within the Jews in order to seperate Jews from the Zionist in the minds of the public. - American
That comment was disappeared. Question is why? What or who was he protecting by disappearing that comment? - American
American -- there may be issues of style involved here, more than content. If you paid me enough, I would edit all your comments and smooth out all the rough edges. :) Don't take offense -- I am calling it as I see it. There are certain elementary rules of effective communication that are wise to observe -- purely as a matter of self-interest. - Sean McBride
Well I am not really upset enough about being censored to change my style from gentile brain to jewish brain to avoid censorship...:) But tell me why you think Phil rejected the advice for jews to attack the zionist publically. I think it has something to do with the "within' the Jews attitude. - American
Some of those rules: be calm, civil, brief, on point, generous, conciliatory, understated, etc. Hot communications don't work in social media. This is a cool medium. The more your opponent shouts, the more you whisper. - Sean McBride
American -- the way you are framing these controversies is guaranteed to rile up many people who could be your potential allies. That is my perspective. Feel free to express yourself any way you please. You're a big boy and it's a free country. - Sean McBride
'' generous, conciliatory, understated'.....I could do that but imo it only encourages them to keep their denial and jewishness. The comment was actually civil and precise about the most effective way to seperate jews from zionism., it wasnt shouting at all. What MW does it encourage a 'Stepford' wives mentality. We must resist it - American
You can't bully people into changing their views -- it never works -- it always backfires. This is a basic fact about human nature. - Sean McBride
o.k....take my comment (advice I gave) and reframe it in a way you think they would accept. - American
Well, I've made many of the points you have been focusing on in many comments -- you surely know my style by now. - Sean McBride
The main principle: don't try to beat down opponents and back them into a corner. Rather help guide them out of the corner into which they have backed themselves. - Sean McBride
American -- note well -- I am not trying to tell you what to think or how to write -- that's your business. I am just sharing a few observations from my perspective -- feel free to reject them. - Sean McBride
A rule I try to follow: the more angry I feel, the more I try to settle my mind. And *never* write in a state of emotional excitement -- it is almost always a mistake. Calm and centered is the name of the game -- never lose your balance. - Sean McBride
Skilled debaters know how to push their opponents off balance in ways that are so subtle as to be invisible. Lose your balance, lose the debate. - Sean McBride
Debating is like logrolling -- the object of the game is to stay out of the drink -- to maintain one's balance. - Sean McBride
Thank you, Sean. Excellent advice. I've taken notes. :) - weareone
We have different approaches. I would give you the example of current world outrage at Israel for how my approach works. My goal is not to bring in the zios and identity jews and change their minds or cuddle with them--I dont care about them--they are immaterial and are of no use in defeating Israel---my goal is to rile others against them and israel and US politicians. Make you a bet that public outrage and protest will be what eventually ends the Zio domination of the US and Palestine. - American
Well, you've made your objectives and methods crystal clear. Do understand, however, that from the standpoint of Jews, you are trying to incite an angry and possibly murderous mob against them. They tend to respond proactively to those kinds of threats these days. And they are not likely to welcome you warmly into their conversational spaces. It's not surprising that you have run into some problems on Mondoweiss. - Sean McBride
Might you be describing what actually occurs down the line with regard to American and European relations with Israel and Zionism? Quite possibly so. But I will never join a mob -- or even encourage it. - Sean McBride
Let me repeat myself. My comment, which was the subject of this thread, had nothing to do with inciting mobs against Jews. It was about Jews fighting zionist. I am not trying to incite 'murderous mobs' against Jews----I 'am' trying to incite mass and loud protest against US zionist, politicians and Israel. But I am truely not interested in 'protecting the jews" above all other... more... - American
And that is why I run into trouble on honesty is not appreciated----:):):) - American
The problem with Zionism is always 'we eat first' - Chu_
They better hire some food tasters. - American
American- :).. Sean's restraint mixed with some of your irreverence-imo, perfect combo. - weareone and buggy....I'm the horse of course....:) - American
America, re your comment being rejected: it's simple - you were giving 'advise" to Jews while being non-Jewish. Worse yet, you were giving it under a handle "American", a major red flag (sorry). I bet you if a known jewish commenter, say Mooser, said exactly the same thing (in his case with even more sarcasm thrown in) the comment would go up in a second. Nothing riles up members of the... more... - Danaa
Danaa's right. Wonder if 'no more Israel' gets a fast track, since he's claimed he's Jewish? - Chu_
Danaa. right no doubt cause some jewish commenters say way more harsh things than I do and get away with it. - American
The MW mystery of the disappearing comments.
Does anyone remember back in 2012 when I had a huge fight with Slater and Donald over the possibility of the US attacking Israel if it ever used its nukes or to prevent it using nukes? It was a big fight concerning his "Just War" theory and went on and on on the thread and now its all gone. Poof!..disappeared. - American
All that left from that fight was Slater's later reappearance and Donald the philo posting a article about my comment and calling for censorship........... - American
American, did you check in the archives whether your own comments disappeared too? I do think it's extremely unfortunate to disappear such a valuable archive. If that happened I would be quite disturbed as well. especially as we are in the middle of one of those "just war" escapades that israel loves to mount now and then. not to mention what's been done to eastern Ukraine as we speak.... more... - Danaa
American -- did you ask Annie about this? Do you have her email address? - Sean McBride
I looked for it as well, couldn't find it. Also they have scrubbed a lot of people if you search them. I did this a few months ago. People like Ed and America First don't return their search results. You can still find their comments on old threads, but to search by name returns no results. -Same for Avi, it was all screwy when you searched his comments. Click on (later Avi g) and a 2013 comment will take you back to Avi with the last comments being 2011. - Chu_
could be that Hophmi & friends got some pro-bono lawyers to go and threaten MW at the time. Part of the negotiations were a laundry list provided by the trolls. I wouldn't put it past Hoph - he is part of many Jewish organizations and a lawyer or studying to become one. - Chu_
Danaa, .....yep, my comments are gone as well. This is very disturbing as so far as why would they remove it? The more I think about this the more disturbing the whole thing is---especially the Donald twit using that argument to call for censorship....and Phil Letting him. The blowup was over some of us questioning Slater on his just war theory concerning intervention or attacking... more... - American
Slater argued that the US would never attack Israel because it was 1) jewish and 2) because Israel 'was too powerful" for the US to delusional. - American
Donald didn't argue anything...except UNTHINKABLE!! UNTHINKABLE!!! CENSOR SUCH THOUGHTS!! - American
The trolls on that thread had also argued that 'nothing could stop Israel' and so forth----I pointed out that one ballistic missile could take out TA and/ or Isr nuke facilities before Isr could even get its boots on...and that sent Donald and Slater into melt down. in HOW DARE I EVEN THINK such a thing. Anyone who thinks the US doesn't have plans for how to and what to do on Israel in certain events like it does for host of other nuclear countries is very naïve. - American
You know, if Internet communities don't take the trouble to acquire control over their own communications from the bottom up, this kind of thing will be a regular occurrence. - Sean McBride
American -- at a bare minimum you should keep personal and local copies of all your writings and back up those files in the cloud. - Sean McBride
Donald Johnson - is that like a made-up name? From the beginning he was always the unofficial moderator, even before moderation existed. And what non-jewish man has a subscription to The Forward throughout the 80's? But American if you play by the rules, like Donny did, you can probably pen some articles on MW from time to time. Also if you remember, Alec made some serious digs at Donald's comments calling it bilge. He packed it up and left around that time. - Chu_
alec says: January 19, 2012 at 8:24 am Ever get the feeling you are being Goldberged, Phil? If one approach doesn’t work, try another one. I think your weak point has been fingered: seeking acceptance by Liberal Zionists. - Chu_
One thing for certain whatever or whoever Donald is he's a liar....if you're a deliberate liar that's it for me, no respect.. and he's even a bad liar, he got his ass handed to him in that censorship article he did. - American
On a social media platform like Friendfeed, that kind of censorship is nearly impossible. Every individual stands on a level playing field. Individuals are free to connect in whatever combinations they choose. - Sean McBride
No independent blog is ever likely to protect the interests, rights, posts, etc. of commenters. Why would it? - Sean McBride
Re Donald - he maintains he is not Jewish. yet, every jewish commenter can sniff him out as one. I said something yesterday about a "code", a way insiders can tell, just from style, emphasis and a few throw-away lines who is a member and who isn't. I am working on a code manual for that. I should say that if Donald is indeed not jewish (or not a serious philo-semite, which is almost the... more... - Danaa
Chu.....I would be the last person on earth MW would ever let publish their opinion/view on this Isr can of worms. I respect everyone and no one, and everything and nothing, and can do both at the same time on a journey to the truth ----which is what some on MW hate most of all. - American
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