"When we buy our DSLRs, chances are that we mostly shoot and grow with using just the kit lens provided for us by the manufacturerers. What some of us DSLR users don’t realize until we’ve grown enough is just how wondrous and useful a good 50mm lens with a wide aperture is"
- Mel Buckpitt
from Bookmarklet
What about a 35mm? I just bought the Nikkor 35mm f1.8 and I've been told that lens as well as the 50mm are the top two "must have" lenses for DSLR
- Johnny
Johnny: You make a good point. The main advantages of a 50mm is its almost the FOV as the human eye on a full frame camera. The 35mm FOV is closer to the human eye on a cropped sensor camera.
- Mel Buckpitt
Mel: So it would make more sense to go with a 35mm on a DX and a 50mm on a full-frame
- Johnny
Would there be any benefit to buying a 50mm for cropped sensor camera?
- Johnny
I think so, the 50mm lens tends to suffer less from distortion than the wider angle lenses. They are great fast lenses and also cheap, although the Nikon pictured in the article is not. I use both but keep the 50mm on the camera because I feel comfortable with it. I shoot with a D300
- Mel Buckpitt
The 50mm on a DX is amazing for portraits.
- Johnny Chadda
Johnny, I don't have a full-frame camera and I still adore my 50mm.
- joey
What does the wide aperture part mean again? Educating myself on FF.
- Steve C
Actually the bigger the number the greater the depth of field, the smaller the number the more light gets in. Also the shorter the lens the greater the depth of field at the same F Stop.
- Jeffrey Stephen
Cecily: I agree but get too close with 35mm and most will distort, particularly faces. Everything is a compromise I guess
- Mel Buckpitt
The only problem with a 50mm lens (a regular one that is) is it really isn't a true 50mm lens on a digital camera. I would go a little bit wider if possible. I did buy a 50mm myself, but would like something closer to human vision, as it were. However, I love the clarity that comes with fewer pieces of glass in the lens, so I still would recommend it. Not to mention, considering how much lenses cost, a 50mm is one of the very cheapest that you can buy, they easily pay for themselves in the end...
- Danielle Closs
Interesting article, but more interesting are the facts that are pointed out in the comments, such as younger workers taking less pay, etc...
- Danielle Closs
Yes, you have to decide to be successful. Yes, you have to believe that you deserve to be successful. Yes, you have to expect that success will come to you eventually. But that’s not enough.
- Danielle Closs
I start next Friday and able to work from home for the majority of the time. It's an admin role for 3 months but it's better than nothing, which is all I have now. :-) And back to the previous company I worked with doing the task I did several years ago - so in my comfort zone. Thank goodness, such a relief! :-D
- Kol Tregaskes
I'll be keeping an eye out for another role in 3 months but glad to have something after such a long time and so much searching. And in the end the job comes through my previous work, i.e. of word of mouth. The best way, by far, to get work. ;-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Thanks, Tina, Michelle. Woot indeed. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
oh wow! Awesome! Awesome! Awesome! This is so great! I'm overjoyed for you... it couldn't happen to a nicer or more deserving guy. Maybe it will turn into something longer term with increased responsibility? Now all you have to do is post a PICTURE of you doing your new thing. ;-)
- Jim in Real Time
Jandy, yeah but hopefully next week's activities might ease things if I'm out of work again but that's another story for then. ;-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Congratulations Kol. You worked really hard for it, you totally deserve that. Hey, see if your office lets you use bit of friendfeed during work time ;-)
- mridul
mridul, thank you. I'll be at home but won't have any time during the day for anything other than work. It really is a bum-on-sit role admin role.
- Kol Tregaskes
Thank you, Susan, Caroline, James, Fikisha, Simon, directeur, Dee, LAN, Oguz, Bindu, JA, Carlos, Rah (I'm sure your announcement is not far off), Chaz, Charlie, Timothy, Sporty, Sajida, Jeremy and Laura. Gosh, thank you everyone! Hope I didn't miss anyone there? :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Congrats! I'm glad to see companies are still hiring. I'm still looking, but this is encouraging!
- Danielle Closs
Congrats!! :) I'd have commented earlier but my only net access is via iPhone and I can't stomach the slowness enough to be checking up on ff as much as I used to.
- alphaxion
from iPhone
Danielle, thank you. It's an urgent requirement and only for 3 months but I'm not complaining. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Mitchell, it will be but I have a long wait, I get paid a month after my invoice is put in and that's a month away. So at least a 2 month wait! :-(
- Kol Tregaskes
at the very least - could work on other income producers in the time - long time to wait but if the money is worth it, [correction sent to wrong one]
- Ray Marr aka Knatchwa
from IM
Raymond, much easier said than done. It's worth the wait.
- Kol Tregaskes
That's a cool idea... Need to make some of these for my kid... "Flash Packs are a small handmade books, measuring about 1.5 x 3.5 inches, with 30 blank sheets of heavy weight, blank white, bristol paper hanging on a metal ring. Designed to be used as flash card sets, these books are just the right size to carry in your pocket for memorization on the go. Learn that foreign language the old fashioned way, or study for an exam in style!"
- Lindsay is in 20-ten
from Bookmarklet
I made something like this for color schemes...
- Danielle Closs
Tad is trying to teach Avynn some music theory, and we have the on-going battle with math... a few of these might come in handy for both of those. Also we go over the Japanese terminology with my Aikido kids, I wish I had time to make them each a book with the words in it... that would be cool.
- Lindsay is in 20-ten
yeah that one took all of a 1/2 second :)
- (jeff)isageek
Is there ANY way these two films are in the same category?
- Jared B. Luther
I agree, this is a no brainer... Two Towers FTW :)
- Danielle Closs
Ugh.. Jesus, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull sucked.. I walked out of that movie so disappointed.
- Haggis (Sean Loyless)
Crystal Skull was the only Indy film where Indy could've skipped the entire thing and the plot would've concluded in exactly the same way.
- Jeremy Thompson
Two Towers, Indy was ruined by the over the top ending.
- Kol Tregaskes
@bob, the calf only lived for 10 minutes, they probably couldn't get a better pic.
- Danielle Closs
Why couldn't it have been born with extra filet parts? Like a second spine or something. Then we could finally prove evolution.
- Andrew
Most probably it was supposed to be a twin or something. Weird.
- Burcu Dogan
@Danielle, true but pictures taken after it stopped being alive would be similarly informative - its sufficiently different that without good pictures its hard to tell whats going on exactly
- bob
On an age-related note, my English teacher way back in HS had the same birthday as me. For some reason he didn't find it as amusing as I did when it turned out he was 34 when I was 17. :P
- CAJ, somewhere else
Okay, I can remove this now. It looks like that person got edited out. acedanger, I hope you're not implying that I can't respond to people making ignorant comments like that person did.
- Kamilah Gill
This is going to be analysis via populations creepy method of hitting on a metric assload of people at one time. His next thread is going to be /sex?/ and then a thread called /location, finally "what are you wearing". Dude is going to cyber with 600 of us at once.
- Matthew DeVries
105 when i was your age we just had paper.
- orionstarr
No he doesn't...I contest the result to the supreme court which I, of course, have in my pocket. They declared me the winner! Take that Al Gore!
- Alex Scoble
What have I done? :::commits seppaku:::
- tehKenny, Dork
I'm sorry sir, you are going to have to exit the thread now...Sir? SIR!!!
- Morgan Haley
A copy of the home game "Pointless FriendFeed Thread tehKenny just made up!"
- tehKenny, Dork
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... <- last comment sorted alphabetically. I win!
- ·[▪_▪]·
I called "last" all the way back at the start, y'all. Keep going all you like. Because, if you take it literally "The LAST comment in this thread wins". My comment was "Last".
- Nine
I predict someone will need to gas up this thread at around 115 Comms., based on past mileage.
- Micah Wittman
Huh?? What crash? I can't bother expanding the comments.
- Roberto Bonini
This thread is already the most commented thread for the day.
- Alex Scoble
The next person to comment after me is a complete failure and will never amount to anything (still wanna post, ey?)
- Matt Harwood
Not even close, Matt. I have my failure shields up.
- Alex Scoble
Matt: May you live in interesting times. :)
- Roberto Bonini
Bahhhh! Worth a try I guess. Reminds me of when school kids used to say "Twats Say What" really quick, of course... you could do nothing but say What?! ;)
- Matt Harwood
I like puppies, but I like kittens the most.
- Alex Scoble
Why do like dollar costs averageing, Alex?
- Roberto Bonini
It's a good way to minimize risk buying in to a down market or selling in to an up market. Since you never know where the bottom or top is.
- Alex Scoble
I agree in principal but disagree with the statement
- CW™
ARE YOU READY FOR THIS? I googled "Who will win this thread" - Lo and behold an automotive forum thread was started March 2, 2006, has 3 comments just today (Feb 9, 2009), and has 975 comment pages totaling over ==> 14,600 COMMENTS <=== (and counting) http://forums.motortrend.com/70...
- Micah Wittman
Let's get this party started for real this time. American Football, Baseball, AND Basketball are all complete rubbish. You may create your mosh pit now
- Matt Harwood
Ok folks! That's it! Drink up and get out! You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here! Everybody out! Thanks for coming! See you tomorrow. Don't worry, I'll lock up....
- Morgan Haley
Someone tried this on Fark once, And Drew/Mike/Some coder there set up their post to always be at the bottom with a 1 second later time stamp than the latest post.
- Matthew DeVries
i went away for a while, has anyone won yet ?
- Simon Wicks
tehKenny “The last comment in this t*h*read wins. GO!” 4 hours ago - Comment - Like - Hide - More Josh Haley, ·[▪_▪]·, Haggis (Sean), Rahsheen ™, AJ Batac, Steven Perez, Alex Scoble, Far, andy brudtkuhl, Ontario Emperor, Ethan Baker, LouCypher, Kol Tregaskes, VC Freak, Alfredo, Simon Wicks, Just Katie, Ben Jackson, Morton Fox and Morgan Haley liked this
- Johnny Worthington
im watching xmen, what are you doing?
- Simon Wicks
I admire the sticktoittiveness that you are all showing... but i must warn you...i have no life and winning this is the only thing I got keeping hope alive....come on man, please! just please let me have this one tiny little victory....please!!!
- Morgan Haley
i know...it's almost sad now...the pathetic little attempts to post *anything!* sheesh...
- Morgan Haley
*runs after Morgan to give worldly advice in a Morgan Freeman voice
- Matt Harwood
*sits down to listen to the advice offered by Matt "Morgan Freeman voice" Harwood
- Morgan Haley
Oh my God. My Internet went down. Came back up.... AND THE TREAD IS STILL ON!
- tehKenny, Dork
Well now, I remember when I was a boy, and I came to a crossroad in my life, similar to you. You see Morgan, there's no greater destiny, no greater accomplishment in life, than writing the last comment. Now my thread, my thread died. But yours, yours will succeed. Now fetch me a sandwich.
- Matt Harwood
*Rises up with a renewed sense of purpose. Fetches a sandwich for Mr. Freeman. Realizes that there can be only one. One final comment. One victor. **begin training montage to 'Jukebox Hero' by Foreigner...**
- Morgan Haley
What do I win? I don't want to participate till I read all the terms and conditions (no purchase necessary, void where prohibited except on Tuesdays and Thursdays, etc..).
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
Throw out your hands. Stick out your tush. Hands on your hips. Give 'em a push. You'll be surprised, you're doing the French mistake....Voila!
- .LAG liked that
i hear jerusalem bells a' ringing, roman cavalry choirs a' singing...
- .LAG liked that
*THIS THREAD HAS BEEN LOCKED/UNDER MODERATION.* Please "Hide"
- Andrew Smith
Josh with his "Rush Rules", and then -crickets- for 45 minutes. I was staring at it and simple couldn't comment further. It had its own force shield.
- Micah Wittman
@tehKenny/scobleizer I'm afraid you spawned a FriendFeed -inside- a single thread. That's right, a "µFF" service. For better or for worse (*danger* ...http://www.fborfw.com/strip_f... )
- Micah Wittman
No one wins. We all win. It's the same thing.
- Alex Scoble
Yo dawg, I heard you like to Friendfeed, so I put a Friendfeed in your Friendfeed so you can Friendfeed while you Friendfeed.
- Jason Wehmhoener
Zero-sum or infinity-sum? You decide. As long as Tyson has time to burn, we all win by virtue of his "likes".
- Alex Scoble
One day, the world will click on the link to open the rest of the comments, while pleading "Save us!", and FriendFeed will simply answer "No."
- Josh Haley
I only have 425 comments! Look like blocking changes out what numbers you see.
- Admiral Anika
@Josh while black ink spreads across the FF logo.
- vijay
This challenge is like a puffer train in the game of Life (as in cellular automata). It is structured to go on forever. Does FF have the server capacity to handle an infinite thread?
- Tim Ostler
Somewhere soon a database table is going to cry.
- David Bisset (sn)
This thread is still going???????? I think they do, but don't blame me for a buffer overflow.
- Roberto Bonini
This is the thread that never ends. It just goes on and on my friend. Some people started writing it not knowing what it was, and they'll continue writing it forever just because this is the thread that never ends...
- ‘-.-’ Tutivillus Grift
I'm sorry, but as the king of England I do not recognize this victory.
- Alex Scoble
When I frickin' FELT like it, Simon. :P :)
- tehKenny, Dork
“The following thread will go on. But just so you know Anika won.” ~ BLASPHEMY
- Alfredo
tehKenny has had his power to determine the winner of this thread stripped by the authority vested in the friendfeedosphere. Sorry man, but it's the last person who comments on this thread, ever. Not who you determine is the winner.
- Alex Scoble
It is now 11:22 AM PST. If no one comments on this thread by 11:30 AM PST (you have 8 minutes) I declare myself the winner of this thread.
- Alex Scoble
It is now 11:31 AM PST. You did not post anything. I did. So I win. Thanks for playing. This contest is now over!
- Alex Scoble
There was once a thread like this on Fark, that got so big everytime anyone would call it, it would kill the servers, they eventually just had to kill it.
- Matthew DeVries
oops, just BUMPed into this thread. I cant believe this is still floating around
- Threepwood
shouldn't feed this. this is madness. I think you set a record, tehKenny. I'm probably the 50th person to say so... a bit scared to open & see, but I will..... ok, no, amended per what Micah said. 14,600????? good luck touching that one. you set an FF record though, for sure
- Kamilah Gill
"A £50,000 Thunderbirds-style pop-up garage has become the latest home-improvement craze. The garage uses a hydraulic platform which can be hidden under a water feature, flowerbed or patch of gravel – or even a second car. The futuristic parking option has drawn comparisons to the Thunderbirds aircraft hangar deep beneath Tracy Island. . Eight underground garages have already been built, four are in production and more than 10 are on order, with interest highest in Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea, Ealing, Dulwich and Highbury. The waiting list is already four months long and experts predict demand will continue to grow as families choose to improve their home rather than try to sell in a weak property market. Cardok managing director Alastair Soper said: ‘It's 100 per cent secure, far more so than a garage or driveway, and the vehicle's completely protected from the elements. ‘It goes down well with insurance companies. One man with a Bentley had been charged an annual premium of more than £5,000 w
- Cee Bee
from Bookmarklet
i once browsed some high end car forum with some of the members showing off their subterranean installations similar to these. it was really awesome
- Cee Bee
I have this drawn into one of the plans I drew up for our dream house awhile ago. I still want it in this house.
- Admiral Anika
want, but I'll probably wait until it goes on sale.
- Kevin Johnson
Andrew C rides the bus, and he likes it that way! Except for all the misanthropy public transit generates, but I suspect I would also hate people if I drove every day...
- Andrew C
Looks like a pretty tight squeeze for that porsche... Maybe they should think about making these things big enough for normal cars??!
- LarchOye
Robert, that's exactly what our friend (he's an architect) said when I showed him the plans. I'd have to agree after getting stuck in our garage when the power went out because our landlord didn't have them on manual.
- Admiral Anika
it's real. there are lots of companies that do these installations.
- Cee Bee
that great garage...but problem is went break ...
- acn.markting
I would so get one of those garages for my desktop computer.
- Rishabh Mishra (p248)
Cee Bee, I'm sure that the garages exist, but I doubt that there really is a significant rise in the number of people buying them. There isn't a statistically significant number of people buying them in the first place. I'm guessing the owners barely number in the hundreds... it's just too ridiculous.
- Kamilah Gill
or okay, if sales "double", what if the original number was only like, 150. 300 garage owners, then. So, what? Daily Mail seems to puff stuff up all the time.
- Kamilah Gill
that is pretty cool. i would be more impressed if the system used those recycled cargo containers that were discussed in the NYTimes this week.
- Lou Paglia
I dunno this kinda scares me....like what if you are in the car and you get stuck and you go underground. OR what if you;re on the top part and it moves up. hahah I dunno overanalyzing. I'll just stick with a normal garage
- *Tiffany Diamond*
Tiffany, you're not in the car when it's being put away or taken out.
- Admiral Anika
Awesome, yeah. I got one for my pickup truck & liked it so much I got another built in the backyard for my cross-country bike. I had a three extra feet of concrete added, and a tunnel over to my WWIII shelter, so as long as the electrcity is on I'm ready for anything. It's also cool because my outdoor BBQ is built on top of the bike hatch, so while doing steaks & dogs on Saturday, I can elevate up 8 feet and catch the backyard view. Highly recommended, no home should be without two.
- Douglas Hopkins
Cool but what about rain or snow? Wouldn't work in Chicago :-c
- Zulema ◕ ◡ ◕
Boss, sorry, I'm gonna be late for work; my garage won't start. [wanting this as I give my smart-aleck response]
- MiniMage TKDteacher of FF
And yes I had the extra ROM cartridge on the back of it. Exile was (at the time and on this computer) and amazing game. Technically so much better than anything else. Post your MEME links here if you like...
- Kol Tregaskes
from Bookmarklet
First programmed on Apple IICs IIEs TRS-80s. First machine in home was a Tandy 1000TX. First console was an Atari 2600.
- Andrew Badera
Sinclair ZX81. Started programming in Basic, later on a little assembly. Oh the days of cassette tapes as storage device! I learned how to adjust the tape heads even before I became a studio engineer :-)
- Henk de Kruyff
from twhirl
The best game on the Acorn Electron (and my favourite game ever) is Bug Blaster. What is yours? (My best game MEME is here: http://friendfeed.com/e...).
- Kol Tregaskes
I bought my first computer in 1983, when I was 13. It was a VIC-20, with the cassette tape drive and a supply of 10 minute tapes for storage. I used a 9" color TV as the monitor.
- Joey Gibson
Coleco Adam. Because the Commodore 64 was so popular I couldn't find it in stock anywhere and I was an impatient brat back then. Thing was horrible. Think it turned me off on computers until my Macintosh IIsi in college.
- ronin
TRS-80 Color Computer with 4k of memory and a cassette player to load/save programs. My friend later got an Atari 800 which was a really nice machine so I spent a lot of time at his house!
- David Ward
My uncle had a TRaSh-80 monochrome terminal/computer with cassette player, but I was the primary user. The first computer that was purchased specifically for me was a TI 99 4a.
- Peter Ghosh
@ Joey Gibson - My first was also a Commodore Vic-20.
- Mike Reynolds
I had an electron too (could not afford a BBC Micro) but had a ZX81 first.
- James Macgill
Started with a Sinclair ZX80 (our neighbors) then moved to the US and got some odd "Interact Computing" machine. Then back to UK and got a ZX81, Dragon 32. Back to US and got a Commodore 64...
- Warren Harrison
Gosh some really old machines here. hehe.
- Kol Tregaskes
My mom had a computer before I was born (1979ish?, I was born in 1981), but I didn't get my first computer which I alone owned until I was 7, a Zenith word processing laptop.
- fn (fairnymph)
@Michael - Yeah, it makes for a great RSS feed reading experience.
- Nathan Chase
now I just need to figure out a way for all of it to be in a single stream. FriendFeed can take care of the tweets, but importing my OPML as imaginary friends, having save for later functionality, or the ability to email a friend a story are still beyond the capabilities of what FriendFeed can do as of yet.
- Nathan Chase
How often in one hour do you "view" this scenario? Once an hour, twice, 3 times a minute? How much time is - enough?
- Ron West
I have 2 other monitors that are for work. I glance back at this one whenever I'm waiting for something to happen. So probably several times a minute I'll glance over, see if there's anything particularly interesting. If there's something long that I'll want to review later, I'll either favorite it in TweetDeck, Like it in FriendFeed, or star it/save for later in Feedly
- Nathan Chase
What are you using to show FriendFeed in the sidebar?
- Brian Sloane
Ah I found it. It's the realtime view when opened in the mini window. Awesome!
- Brian Sloane
@Carmen - yeah I've just recently been trying the all-on-one view... it seems like too much at first, but I think I'm getting used to it.
- Nathan Chase
Feedly is on the verge of fully integrating Google Reader, Friendfeed and Twitter in an optimal way, with smart ranking of new items by personal relevance and global importance. From my perspective, Friendfeed has let a huge opportunity slip through its fingers.
- Sean McBride
@Sean - agreed - all that's left is to figure out deleting duplicate stories - it would be awesome to have some sort of mechanism that hides any future retweet, repost, retelling of stories across news readers, FriendFeed, and Twitter so that all you ever see is the source. I'm sure it will happen - eventually.
- Nathan Chase
omfg thanks for this post, feedly rocks!, been having fun with it all morning, so easy to share things its ridiculous
- Kyle Weller
@Kyle - nice... yeah it gives Google Reader a LOT of expanded functionality
- Nathan Chase
Nathan -- when I try to imagine the ultimate apex of news reading, I see the integration and deduping of feeds we have just mentioned, combined with a super-crisp and super-minimal display: 50 simple headlines on a screen in two or three columns, no graphics, items ranked in priority order, with a single click to dismiss the screen as read and to refresh. From there on, it will be all...
more...
- Sean McBride
@Sean - I do happen to like graphics & photos associated with posts, as that's how we've viewed news in magazines, newspapers, and television for years. It's natural. And as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes an image will draw me in to a story more than a headline ever could.
- Nathan Chase
Nathan -- including or not including graphics definitely should be options. Pick your style of news display. Feedly's current style of including graphics with stories is brilliant -- the best display system out there.
- Sean McBride
@Sean - absolutely. Feedly's definitely doing quite well in that regard - allowing a lot of "under the hood" customization
- Nathan Chase
Feedly indeed kicks ass, I use it exclusively for all my feeds now.
- Nick
I would love to see Paul Buchheit and Edwin Khodabakchian get into some friendly but furious coding competition. At the moment, it seems to me that Feedly development is being driven more powerfully forward than Friendfeed.
- Sean McBride
Beautiful -- where is the Friendfeed roadmap? I have been very impressed by Edwin Khodabakchian's energy and openness in engaging with Feedly users about the future of Feedly.
- Sean McBride
Feedly has a high-powered dev team for sure.
- Meryn Stol
I have either Feedly or Greader and the FF sidebar, I also I keep a tab with FF in case I want to investigate something that appears in the sidebar. I open Tweetdeck very rarely these days. I don't need much else as I have the feeds for all sites/blogs/forum that interest me in either Google Reader or FF.
- M F
M F is what is known in the biz as an early early adopter.
- Sean McBride
I'm very disorganised in my "real" life so I try to be organised at least when I'm online :)
- M F
@sean & @nathan... How many feeds do you guys manage in feedly in how many genres? I fond feedly's effectiveness has an upper limit in terms of how many categories it can effectvely display.
- David Wynn
@David - I currently have 29 categories. 297 sources.
- Nathan Chase
David -- just over a thousand feeds, and a few dozen categories. My Feedly My Digest page has become the stickiest page on the Web for me, because the recommendations are so good. I tend to read and process a Feedly My Digest page slowly, with great care. Two or three Feedly My Digest pages are a feast -- my mind feels full.
- Sean McBride
I am not sure if mhmazidi's comment was written in Arabic or Farsi, but, again, I wish that Friendfeed would offer the option to automatically translate all foreign language comments.
- Sean McBride
@Sean - yeah I was trying to find some sort of translator. would be nice to know what he said
- Nathan Chase
And, conversely, not get anything done during the day, right? :P
- Danielle Closs
@Danielle, it's there when I need it... if I've got my head down focused into completing a task, obviously checking it all out is not highest priority :)
- Nathan Chase
@Nathan Maybe I'm the only one with the problem then. I tried a setup like this, and well, I had a hard time NOT looking at it, if I kept it up all day. So, it is good to have when you need it, but then, you don't NEED it up ALL day. Therein lies the problem. When it comes to work, for me at least, I have to turn it off a good portion of the day. To each his own right? :)
- Danielle Closs
@Nathan And btw, I was only making a little joke :)
- Danielle Closs
@Danielle - I know. :) I think it's definitely tough to do. I consider staying abreast of the latest news (especially in design/tech/web) as being part of being a good designer and knowing what resources are available to me. I've found so many incredibly useful tools and articles that have become essential to completing my daily work tasks.
- Nathan Chase
@Nathan Don't get me wrong, I am very much grateful for the chance to grab important goings on in my field of study, and also general news, it's just that, for me at least, I need to limit the amount of time I have it up, or I will not get anything done! I do get a great deal of useful information from social networks, and they do help me with my work as well. I really wasn't trying to belittle the good of the resources, just my inability to deal with it in front of me all day, is all...
- Danielle Closs
Thank you for all the kind words: it is a great pleasure for us to see feedly showcased next to such awesome apps!
- Edwin Khodabakchian
@Edwin - thanks to you for your continued engagement with your users. It's paying off! We're glad to continue to help you make the best product possible.
- Nathan Chase
I use Twhirl as you will see at the end of this post,. I use it for Twitter, FriendFeed, Identic.ca and to search for anything involving the word "Apple or "Microsoft" Or "News." So I have just about everything I need in one client. The problem for me with TweetDeck is that it uses up too much memory, at least for me it. That's the only reason I don't use it at all.
- Patrick
from twhirl
@Patrick - I agree that the TweetDeck memory usage is quite high, but then again, so is Firefox's. I've tried Twhirl, but even with all of the different color schemes, it still doesn't feel "right" as a UI to me. Something about it is just off. The FriendFeed integration in particular is just weird.
- Nathan Chase
@Nathan Twhirl is very nice for twitter. I can look someone up and add them as a friend from Twhirl, However I can't do the same in FriendFeed. I can look someone up but I have to subscribe to them from the website, if you ask me it defeats the purpose.
- Patrick
from twhirl
@Patrick - I usually prefer to see their twitter.com/username page - see what kind of background they have, follow/followers count, etc. - so visiting the site doesn't really seem like a bother to me, but an imperative viewing to determine if I'll follow someone or not
- Nathan Chase
@Nathan I will do that too, now that I have auto follow on (without sending a dm) I will always double check to see if it's a spammer or someone who is trying to take over my account and I can't really do that with Twhirl. I do it with the website.
- Patrick
from twhirl
I'm a bit late, but I do something like this, too. I also have FF Real Time up and using the Stylish 'Slim Edition'. Then, I have Twhirl running in the background and I click to it every once in a while to catch up on Tweets I missed. Plus, I have Netvibes open in a tab to catch everything from Flickr, FF, Twitter, LJ, Facebook, GReader, Myspace, etc. And when I really need to get work done I close the other two and leave only Netvibes on to look at every once in a while.
- Araceli
That's awesome, I sometimes get lost in the haze of information overload. How did you go about setting the real time friendfeed updates in the sidebar?
- deakaz
I haven't figured out how. If you do let me know. Personally, I think you are better off trying to learn from discussions on the internet instead of trying to "win".
- Alex Scoble
by agreeing with the other party... no matter how wrong they are.
- Ted Roden
By finding out where the person lives and going to their location and saying, "In your face!"
- Mathew™ one of a kind
Perhaps I just need to recognize that the point of most arguing is to win, not to be right.
- Jim Norris
bamboozle them with your tinyurl research arsenal
- Josh Halliday
by getting more and more and more and more outrageous in your counter claims until they finally realize that you are not arguing with them at all but rather mocking them. The longer it goes on the sillier they look. You can throw a couple of trolls into the argument to agree with you making even more outrageous claims. If it's too early in the process you can dial the outrageousness back if you think you need to to keep them going just a little longer.
- Thomas Hawk
Probably the same way you do in real life, if you think about it. It may be a bit harder without body language, but the other tactics still work the same.
- Danielle Closs
You win by getting the *other* party to make a comparison to Nazis/Hitler.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Do all arguments really need to be "won"?
- Victor Ganata
By not wasting time getting into an argument in the first place.
- Admiral Anika
There may be no way to win but there are many, many ways to lose.
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
True that, Mark. When Godwin's Law gets invoked, it means everyone loses.
- Victor Ganata
By punching my monitor right in the mouth.
- Steven Perez
1. Classical Rhetoric: "be clear, be forceful, be concise, be emphatic" http://collaboratory.nunet.net/dsimpso... 2. Shouting Match: volume + persistence (but at best you can win a battle, not the war)
- Micah Wittman
I usually play the internet like I play chess. Without trying to win, while not letting them win. Usually ends 8 hours later with the other guy just slapping the board across the room, or he makes a dumb mistake and it's mate in 5.
- Matthew DeVries
Most people on FF, you just gotta keep em talking, feeding them rope, they hang themselves 10 times over.
- Matthew DeVries
Yes, all arguments need to be won, largely because an 'argument' is inherently confrontational. And also because the winners write history, as well as the rules. However, if you're not prepared to make the effort to win an argument, don't get in arguments in the first place.
- Michael R. Bernstein
By which I mean, if you are entering into an argument in a half-assed way, you'll likely lose. Do you really want your side (assuming you have one) to lose? Better to ignore the argument (and your opponent) in the first place.
- Michael R. Bernstein
The thing is, what exactly do you win? Or lose? In the real world, in particular situations, obviously there are tangible consequences to winning or losing an argument, but on the Internet? Not so much.
- Victor Ganata
If someone changes his mind and admits to it, I'd say that's winning, with a tangible, worthwhile outcome.
- fn (fairnymph)
If discussion degenerates into argument, nobody wins.
- Rebecca
I wonder how many people you have to argue with on the Internet before you actually convince someone that you're right. I suspect that if you did a cost benefit analysis, it's almost never worth it.
- Victor Ganata
By calling everyone else that disagrees "gay" and blocking them ;) Oh.. that was how you lose...
- Jemm
Most forms of arguing accomplish nothing except to make the participants more determined than before to defend their original positions. At that point, no one is listening. My question is always: is the aim to serve your cause or to pump up the ego?
- Rebecca
I find that making a satirical comment works best. It diffuses the anger and short circuits the brains of the reactionaries.
- Ryan Garns
Ryan, yes, that can be effective as long as it's very clearly satirical, not always an east task to pull off on the Internet. Great to see when it does, though.
- Rebecca
You win by going out and getting laid while your opponent is still replying to you vacant keyboard IMO.
- Geoff Schultz
First, you have to get one of @dstevens's tshirts that says, "I'm not going to waste time debating you. Does this look like the internet?"
- ha3rvey (wants confit)
from fftogo
"David, pictured at right, is a former chief executive at United Technologies worth more than $325 million. His wife is a former banker who has been described as a Swedish countess. Below you'll find a financial affidavit filed three months ago in Hartford Superior Court detailing how Douglas-David spends $53,826 every week. Maintaining several homes (including a Park Avenue apartment and a year-round Hamptons rental) and dropping $4500 for clothing, $8000 for travel, $1000 for "Haircare/skincare," and $650 on dry cleaning bills every week has a way of adding up. Apparently. Douglas-David's affidavit also, sadly, reflects the sorry state of the newspaper and magazine business. She only spends $30 per week on publications, or just .055735147 of her weekly nut."
- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
This makes me sick. Starting in April, I will have to get by on CA state unemployment, and my wifes 3-day-a-week paycheck. GRRRRRR
- Neil Bernhart
Obnoxious. I feel like I work JUST to pay off my student loans, and I honestly don't know how I've gotten by paying that. /broke
- Derrick
but why is that wrong, unless he stole the money a la Madoff, AIG, et al.?
- grant fox
Not only does it make me sick that this woman feels like she needs that much money a week to live, it makes me sick that she's a gold-digger who's taking her husband (more than twice her age) for every penny he's got. Not to defend his inordinately high salaries, but it does appear he actually worked for his money.
- mike fabio
grant, I didn't say it was wrong, I just said it was obnoxious.
- Derrick
oh I agree nobody needs to live like that and it's crass, but to each their own as long as their hand isn't in my pocket.
- grant fox
you know. If you taxed estates above $5 million at a 90% tax rate you'd eliminate a big part of this problem and be able to distribute an awful lot of this type of wealth back to lower, middle and upper middle class. The problem would still exist during people's lifetimes but at least it wouldn't transfer inter-generationally.
- Thomas Hawk
these people are the new villains by the way. The super rich would do well to be far less obvious and ostentatious with their wealth over the course of the next few years.
- Thomas Hawk
I know if I had that much money, I'd hide it in my mattress or something, or spread it around, or push some into buying currently low cost stocks... I definitely would not be flashing it around, that's for sure...
- Danielle Closs
these people are probably pretty bummed that this is on The Smoking Gun today.
- Thomas Hawk
By taxing estates >$5M at 90% you'd solve this problem? I don't really understand what the problem is. I'm not saying I'd want to hang out w/ these people on the weekends, but if they've earned their money honestly, shouldn't they be allowed to spend it as they wish? Isn't that what America is all about? Should the government take most of the money away from their families so they don't act like spoiled brats? This seems way over the top to me.
- Matt
A $5M estate isn't enormous by modern standards. It's great, but not astronomical. I've been responsible and started socking away $ in my 401(k) when I was 23. By saving some each year, I should reasonably be able to reach $5M by the time I retire. I don't want the gov't taking that away from me and giving out freebies. That creates a moral hazard in society.
- Matt
By estates he means inheritance. IOW, first-generation earners live like kings, their children inherit $5M or less rather than billions.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
yes I mean estate as in inheritance. I think the cost of passing on billions of dollars to subsequent generations is too high a cost. When someone is born into wealth they are given every advantage. The best schools. The best standard of living and medical attention. That and about $5 million or so ought to be fair and sufficient for them. They of course can use their advantage in life to earn more on their own. Simply to give billions to heirs though is too high a cost for the rest of society.
- Thomas Hawk
Interesting how far the pendulum is swinging from the "greed is good" aesthetic. Personally I don't favor such limits. I'd like to keep the capitalist dream of building a dynasty alive. I want my kids or grandkids to inherit billions and do great good with it.
- Stephen Mack
Lindsey, We must have a different understanding of the definition of "earned". Having Daddy give you money doesn't really seem all that much hard work.
- Jeff Jones
there should be some penalty for inherited wealth. don't ask me what is should be, that statement isn't well thought out.
- grant fox
Jeff, but SHE earned it, and it shouldn't be taxed twice.
- Stephen Mack
I'm all about using what you've been blessed with to make the world a better place. But bottom line is that I trust my children (which at this point are merely figments of my imagination) to so use my future wealth far more than any slime ball in Washington.
- Matt
Were I a gajillionaire with a desire to pass my money on to my kids for philanthropic reasons I'd set up a foundation and put them in charge of it. If you *really* want them to do good things with the money, I see no reason to just cut them a check for the full amount.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
It's a complicated issue, especially for family farms. It's less and less possible for farm transfers to allow generations to remain on the farm, especially with mis-assessments of farm land as either development value or some other incorrect classification. A relatively small farmstead with a few hundred acres, a barn, a house, a couple outbuildings and any sort of natural feature...
more...
- Bob M. Montgomery
from twhirl
Like Matt, I see no reason to give that check to Washington instead, taxing legitimate income twice.
- Stephen Mack
Given the limited amount of real estate on the planet and the ever-growing global population, is it really reasonable to expect a plot of land purchased in 1900 to stay in the family for eternity? That plot's relative share of the planet's bounty increases with each passing generation.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
The problem is not in spending... the problem here is she tries to milk her former husband for more and more. 53K per week is not a limit, she could spend a million, if there were such money available. It seems, this is another case of "will divorce for money".
- Pavel Senko
Conversely, Daniel, the food producing capability of that plot of land should be held in higher value as the population increases. However, that's not the case: it becomes over valued because it's being assessed as 100 acres of quarter acre plots to live on, not 100 acres of food producing resource.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
@Pavel: She dropped out of the workforce six years ago in a mutual decision. Surely she is entitled to some fraction of the total growth in their net worth in the last six years. Whether or not her current lifestyle exceeds that fraction, I can't say based on the TSG PDF.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
the rationalization for taxing estates is easy. What if I told you by taxing the top 100 estates in the United states over $1 billion that you could save the lives of millions of children all over the world. Is it moral to allow people to keep more money than they can possibly spend in their enitre lives when the cost to the rest of society is so high? One child is born in Africa. Another 12,000 miles away to a billionaire. Is it moral that one hordes money and the other dies by the luck of birth?
- Thomas Hawk
Thomas, you're justifying your means with an end. Thinking of starving children in Africa doesn't necessarily excuse whatever taxation plan Senator Robin Hood comes up with.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
If you were sitting with a mother holding her dying child and had a choice to save that child right then and there saving the child and their mother immeasurable sorrow if it meant that Paris Hilton only got to keep $999 million instead of $1 billion would you do it?
- Thomas Hawk
You can also turn up some very interesting interviews and articles by googling 'bill gates estate tax'.
- Michael R. Bernstein
or would you let the child die arguing that Paris' dead father's right to not have his money double taxed was the greater good?
- Thomas Hawk
Come on Thomas, that's a weak emotional appeal. Why aren't we debating "If you were sitting with a mother holding her dying child and had a choice to save that child right then and there saving the child and their mother immeasurable sorrow if it meant that [famous person] was ground into sausage and used to feed the poor would you do it?"
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Stephen, Money is taxed twice ALL THE TIME. I earn a paycheck, taxed, I buy a product with that money, taxed, let's say I have a lawn service and pay them, taxed again, they pay taxes on it too, then when THEY pay their workers it's taxed yet again. So why should money inherited be treated any differently?
- Jeff Jones
To me, the issue is pragmatic: When the USA recycled it's elites ruthlessly, we got incredible economic growth and a more egalitarian society. When inherited wealth accumulates, we get rising economic inequality and economic stagnation.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Michael, I agree. I think the problem with our economy and with wealth inequality is that we don't buy enough pitchforks and torches in this country. Metaphorically speaking of course.
- Jeff Jones
"The Tree of Economic Growth must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of Aristocrats and Enraged Peasants."
- Michael R. Bernstein
Thomas, the point is that it should be Paris Hilton's responsibility to save that kid's life, not the bureaucracy that is our government. She's obviously an extreme example of wealth wasted on a spoiled brat. But there are plenty of wealthy people who help people more efficiently than any government ever could. It boils down to a big vs. small government question, I think.
- Matt
certainly Paris Hilton, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates etc. ought to be given an opportunity to redistribute the wealth. And I can say I think Gates and Buffett are doing an admirable job at that. I see nothing wrong with allowing an individual to earmark what worthy societal improvement their estate dollars go to. But if they won't make that decision then I think it's Govt job to look after the greater interests of society and do it for them, the cost to not do so is too high.
- Thomas Hawk
of course, there is the massive problem of governments forever expanding their spending. If they taxed their friends and cohorts that much do you really believe it will go on clandestine projects or would it just go back into their friends pockets or used to blow up other countries? Fix corrupt and bloated governments first, then address this issue afterwards. Surely slicing down the budget requirements for running the country then cutting the tax would benefit the poor orders of magnitudes more.
- alphaxion
Matt, part of the point for a high estate tax is that it creates a huge incentive to give the wealth away to whatever they consider a worthy cause. This actually is a pretty efficient allocation mechanism that bypasses the inefficiencies of government.
- Michael R. Bernstein
Yeah, anything is more exciting than just leaving it all to the kids. Why not invest it back in the family business or stand up a charity or any number of things - you can still put your kids in charge of those things and at least they get to be involved rather than just rich and bored.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Thomas, the greater interests of society only work when society has as much of a say in it as possible. Why does no one see that the free market is made up of people, including you and me? The only real change we will see is when we decide where our money immediately goes (and to whom it goes!) and not think "Oh well, it can wait four more years." Government bureaucrats are not the answer--they do not serve the greater interests of society, they serve the interest of getting reelected :)
- Michael Ryan
@Matt, interesting to see someone in Govt. call the University of Florida the best academic school in the U.S. I think some might disagree with her. ;)
- Thomas Hawk
Michael, the point is that if you put a 90% estate tax on estates over $5 million this would encourage almost everyone with such an estate to give much of it away on their own without Govt. To make it even easier you could craft tax credits for giving it away during their lifetime if you wanted it to happen faster. The cost to let people create estates worth over $5 million exacts too high a toll on the rest of society.
- Thomas Hawk
Daniel, probably, but I think that if people don't give it away then you turn it over to the bureaucrats of Govt. it's certainly better for people to do it themselves though but sometimes they need a carrot and a stick to do the job if they won't do it voluntarily.
- Thomas Hawk
So children should be forced to sell a farm or business to pay the taxes because the inherited asset isn't cash? And if the economy happens to be doing poorly at the time they are forced to sell and they only get half what they should? What good reason is there to say that someone who worked hard to build a business and paid taxes along the way shouldn't be allowed to have their children continue to work and grow that business?
- LogEx
I just want to know how you spend $481 per week on a cell phone? How many minutes do you get for $2,000 per month?
- gfurry
By the way, a business worth $5 million typically generates only a small fraction of that as income for the owners.
- LogEx
gfurry, they are either calling internationally or they are travelling abroad and using the phone outside the US.
- Alex Scoble
LE, your hypothetical seems to assume that the children don't have the cash to pay the taxes outright. There ought to be a way to pass along the cash required to pay the estate taxes without having to carve up the illiquid assets. I know of some folks who gifted their family business to their children bit by bit for years in their 60s and 70s. Once they died the estate taxes were presumably less onerous than they might otherwise have been.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
The moral hazard is you forcing people to give up their property for your own purposes at gunpoint. They are pumping a full years salary or two back into the economy every week. Someone makes those clothes, flies their planes, maintains their houses. You'd have the government strip them of their own property because you know better how their wealth should be spent better than they do? The government would squander the money and put it into their buddies pockets and put all those people out of work.
- John Rubier
My guess on the phones is paying $100/mo. for 15 phones issued to staff, plus a fancy new phone every month for someone or other.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
She's not the only who's this high maintenance - why is she getting all this publicity?
- Mona Nomura
Daniel, I know there are good ways of estate planning to avoid that scenario in many cases, but should it be so difficult? Why shouldn't it be OK to do just what I outlined? Also, it's probably not safe to assume that someone with a $5 million business has another $5 million laying around in cash to pay the inheritance tax.
- LogEx
Thomas: What is the toll? That we are not getting wealth we did not earn? (I am going under the presumption that all money earned by rich people was done honestly, but our "too big to fail" government isn't set up that way at all) All I see it doing is destroying incentive to work with us, to not earn capital out of rational self-interest. Taxes usually do that, and a 90% tax would especially do that. :\
- Michael Ryan
LE: Certainly not, but do you want the law to err on the side of redistribution of wealth or protection of a descendant who might only be getting $1.25M to keep at the current rate?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Mona, because the smoking gun and other publications like page views and advertising dollars and the fact that a divorce is a legal proceeding makes these kinds of documents public when the more rational of the wealthy arbitrate privately behind closed doors maintaining their privacy. it's not every day that you get this kind of glimpse into the world of the wealthy to gawk. It's like a bad accident on the freeway, you can't help but look.
- Thomas Hawk
@Daniel, You are right. My assumption was based on a fact that they have reached $43 mil agreement before (means, she was aware of her lifestyle and expenses and decided that $43mil would be enough), and now she just wants more.
- Pavel Senko
I'd err on the side of letting the core of hard-earned and already-multiply-taxed money to stay where its owners want it. I'd be more amenable to a graduated inheritance tax rather than some arbitrary cut-off. It's like the $250k figure that gets used for everything these days. If you make less, you're poor, if you make more, screw you.
- LogEx
"I consider myself ungodly lucky. I won the lottery. You people in this room are lucky. You ahd a 1-in-30 chance of being born in the U.S. In 1930, when I was born, I had a 1-in-50 chance of being born in the U.S. I had a 50 percent chance of being born male. And I had a 1 percent chance of being born male in the United States. My friend, Bill Gates, said if I'd have been born 1,000 years ago, I would have been some animal's lunch." Warren Buffett.
- Thomas Hawk
Michael, the toll is death, starvation, malnutrition, under educated populations, etc. This is the toll for allowing billionaires to pass along wealth the way that they do. That money could be redistributed to help so many more people. Bill Gates has saved an enormous amount of lives through his philanthropy. How many children have been saved from malaria because of the money that Bill Gates has been spending to try and eradicate the disease entirely?
- Thomas Hawk
What is the higher good? That Paris Hilton inherits a billion or that malaria is eradicated?
- Thomas Hawk
And the government, arbiter of all good on Earth, will eradicate malaria? Thomas, don't get me wrong, I want most of the same ends as you...just not the same means.
- Michael Ryan
Michael, the tax is a disencentive towards oversized inheritances, not a plan to take the money of the rich and redistribute it. Again, set up a foundation like Gates or donate to one like Buffett. Just don't try to keep it and give ten billion to your kids.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
...Mostly because those means don't tend to work. A group made up of people who act out of self-interest don't miraculously become selfless simply because they call themselves "government." Instead, you have pooled a large portion of money that could be up for the taking if you win an election or strike a deal. And even if they do have the best intentions (good people do exist, I admit :P) government just can't run things as efficiently as individuals.
- Michael Ryan
So preemptively give the money to someone other than the government or your children.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Daniel: Or just an incentive to try to find a tax loophole. Or evade the tax. Or move somewhere where you don't pay the tax.
- Michael Ryan
Very little evidence exists that accumulated wealth is a serious problem for our country as a whole. Remove the "fairness" or "class-envy" arguments and the issue goes away. Redistribution of wealth happens everyday though market forces. Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Berkshire as examples. Force the issue and we end up with Central Planning and the USSR. No one has an incentive to work under Socialism, and the country our Grandparents worked so hard to create is gone.
- Robert Kenney
Daniel: And if they don't? Who will take the money? Who will distribute it for them?
- Michael Ryan
No one has an incentive to work if their estate is capped at $5M? That's an odd implication. I think nearly all of us work for less than $5M already. Ryan - the government, if they choose not to redistribute it in their own chosen way. We could always set up laws redirecting inheritance taxes to public works or something.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Daniel: Public works are run by government :\
- Michael Ryan
Michael, Daniel's point exactly. Most people would rather redistribute their wealth themselves rather than leave it to the Govt. Bill Gates of course is the model example for what billionaires ought to do with their wealth. The tax is an incentive to help them do the right thing with their wealth. If you wanted to ensure people did even more you could give them greater tax credits for doing it while they were alive.
- Thomas Hawk
Right, so these efficiency genius multimillionaires will probably be able to set up a foundation that handles the wealth better than the government does. If they don't, then the government will have to suffice. I'm not seeing the issue here other than "if your plan in any way involves the government potentially having access to money I am against it". Edit: Whoops, I'm getting out of sync with comments being pushed up before I finish typing mine.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
That's a bit of a conundrum, Lindsey. Legislation, judicial interpretation, and police enforcement are what make things "legal" or "illegal". Certainly Thomas and I aren't directly responsible for the perpetuation of the justice system but as citizens of a representative democracy we are surely welcome to debate the pros and cons of the system.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
see, the thing is this. Look at the way this woman lives. What if you took half of what she spends and saved 1,000 kids a year. Would society be better off? I think it would. If Govt is the wrong vehicle to do it then build greater incentives to force people to do it. Bump the charitable deduction to 110% for instance instead of 100%. There are little ways we could make progress with this utilizing the U.S. tax laws but I'd like to see more steps in this direction towards redistribution.
- Thomas Hawk
Daniel & Thomas: That is my plan--government, a body we delegate the use of force to, shouldn't use that force to "create incentive" for people. That doesn't sound like creating incentive, it sounds like violating individual rights.
- Michael Ryan
I look at it like taxes on cigarettes. The government disapproves of your habit and they levy some hefty taxes when you insist on practicing it. Smoking is unpopular with enough of the electorate that the taxes stand, even if they might be considered unfair. At least the government's left you the option to smoke if you really want to.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
I usually don't quote her, but: "The end does not justify the means. No one's rights can be secured by the violation of the rights of others." Ayn Rand
- Michael Ryan
Tax credits are the opposite side of that coin: The government rewards people for buying hybrid cars and having children. These rewards might not completely offset the cost of the aforementioned practices, and they might not be fair to all segments of the populace (i.e. non-parents of all stripes), but they are out there and they do help to encourage "desirable" behavior.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Certainly, Michael. All you've got to do now is to convince everyone that >$5M inheritances and unfettered transfer of property are "rights".
- Daniel J. Pritchett
And what happens when they stop becoming desirable? Well, you have to propose a bill. And the bill goes to committee. And if it passes committee, which can take months, it goes to be scheduled on the House calendar. They vote on it--it might be rejected. You have to cut a few deals, keep a few things in to get it passed. It gets sent to the Senate. They reject it. The process goes on until it goes to the President. He may veto it, starting the whole thing over again. Government was not meant to be the
- Michael Ryan
...leader of morality, it was meant to slow down the possibility of tyrrany.
- Michael Ryan
well Michael all taxation is a violation of someone's rights to property, no?. So then under that logic all taxation would be a violation. Are you saying no income tax or sales tax or estate tax at all ought exist? We're really only arguing degrees of taxation here.
- Thomas Hawk
The crux of this debate is that some of us believe that the government should be allowed to interfere with the property of citizens and others of us do not. The rest - specifically our recent foray into incentive structures - is economics. Edit: Thomas works in finance, I don't. Beaten again ;)
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Daniel: There's tons of people who already believe that you have a right to the wealth you create. We created the country to protect that right.
- Michael Ryan
Ryan: Sure, we can agree to that in a broad sense. Then we've got to determine rights of succession. Do all of your descendants fit under the heading of "you"? Can you claim sole rights to the creation of all money you get your hands on? Does the society or government infrastructure get some credit for your successes? How about the minimum-wage support staff at your office, day care, and diner?
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Thomas: Hm. Maybe. I don't think so at the moment, because government is meant to provide for national defense and to protect our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These are necessary public goods that we create government for.
- Michael Ryan
But the very definition of "obscene" has to be arbitrary, Lindsey. Say you agree to focus exclusively on the percentage of net worth for your definition of obscene, and set it at anything over 50%. Now take a look at the percentage of net worth various income brackets spend on room and board versus the percentage of net worth they're spending on further wealth generation. A dollar means different things to different people. So too does "50% of my net worth".
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Lindsey, I think a 90% tax on estates above $5 million is just the sort of stick the Government needs to force people to follow the examples of people like Buffett and Gates and redistribute their wealth voluntarily. I think our entire population would be dramatically better off for it while doing very little to reduce a very high standard of living for both the wealthy and their heirs. But I'd rather see heirs fly first class instead of on private jets if it meant saving thousands of lives.
- Thomas Hawk
In other words, Thomas is very slightly cramping the pursuit of happiness for ten people while saving the life and liberty of a thousand others. Edit: At least that's the theory ;)
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Daniel: Not if you've taken bailout money :) But if you have made a voluntary contract with the people you work with, you have seen something of value owned by another, you have agreed with him or her to do something for it, and if everyone benefits from this exchange, then wealth is created. But when the exchange is forced? Not quite. To take away that money is to stop recognizing the good of voluntary exchanges, those contracts between two people.
- Michael Ryan
Daniel: Fine, we'll start with you. :) Anyway, it's been fun, but I have AP English homework to do. Ta ta!
- Michael Ryan
I think we're repeating ourselves again - both of the two comments above are effectively arguments against taxation. Edit: ok, the two above the one above this one. I think it's time for me to get back to work. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me, folks.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Ok, I'm a billionaire and a 90% inheritance tax is passed. I don't agree with it and want my kid to have all of my money when I go. Don't I just move to another country sometime before I die?
- Tony, Paradox of FF
Yes, but then you have to deal with various other tariffs and taxes, I imagine. I've personally never tried to transfer funds offshore.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
@Tony, I'm pretty sure there was a law passed in the 70's that slaps punitive taxes on people trying to take their wealth to another country.
- Joey Gibson
Some people do leave the U.S. as it is now Tony, yes, you'd lose some to that. John Dart renounced his citizenship. But most people don't and I think the net positive would still be towards philanthropy.
- Thomas Hawk
actually it was Kenneth Dart not John Dart and it appears that simply moving out of the U.S. to avoid estate taxes isn't as easy as you'd think. http://www.azstarnet.com/sn...
- Thomas Hawk
"March 19 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. House Democratic leaders plan to vote today on a proposed 90 percent tax on executive bonus payments by companies receiving more than $5 billion in federal bailout funds. The bill is a response to the national furor that erupted this week when it was learned that American International Group Inc. paid $165 million in bonuses to 4,600 employees, including many in the financial products unit whose investments brought the company to the brink of bankruptcy. “I expect it to pass in overwhelmingly bipartisan fashion,” House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, a Maryland Democrat, told reporters yesterday in Washington. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat, said, “The American people are very upset about what they’ve heard about bonuses.”"
- Thomas Hawk
from Bookmarklet
The 90 percent tax would apply to people with overall income exceeding $250,000, including bonuses. The tax would apply to bonus payments made after Dec. 31, 2008, and it would cease when the U.S. government’s investment in the company fell below $5 billion. The tax wouldn’t apply to any bonus returned to a company.
- Thomas Hawk
The bonus stuff is ridiculous but shouldn't they worry about the future instead of passing laws for 4,600 people? 250K is a lot in most places. Not if you live in parts of the east coast. Most of those people were doing their jobs as directed.
- gfurry
What a dangerous precedent this sets.
- William Beem
and where does that tax revenue go? this is BS all the way around.
- grant fox
It's reactionary, obviously. The congresscritters are doing something to make sure they get re-elected. This has nothing to do with prudent or moral, only a response to polls. How Pavlovian...
- MVB (Curmudgeon of FF)
If companies need to be bailed out to such extents, they shouldn't be paying bonuses, and the would-be recipients should be glad they're not out on the streets looking for a new job while liquidators sell off the smoking remains of their former companies.
- Andrew C
it's part of a new backlash against the wealthy. It's probably going to continue to get worse as long as our economy falters.
- Thomas Hawk
Why do you say backlash against the wealthy? If their company doesn't make money (far from it because they are asking for that much in bailout money), why should they get a bonus for doing a good job? They didn't do a good job, so they shouldn't get the bonus, simple as that. If the contract states otherwise, that was stupid on the company's part. I don't get how you can run a business like that, and have it be successful.
- Danielle Closs
You say "backlash against the wealthy" like it's a bad thing.
- Eric P
None of this would've been an issue if we hadn't bailed out AIG. The Federal government already owns 80% of it. Might as well nationalize it and kick them all out.
- Morton Fox
Actually I don't think a backlash against the wealthy is a bad thing. Hopefully it can finally get some serious estate tax reform done.
- Thomas Hawk
Jason, if those 'legally binding contracts' don't have outs that AIG could easily invoke **if they wanted**, I'll eat my hat. (TPM has already noted that in fatter times, AIG fired people and then ensured they would *not* get bonuses, but then again, maybe contracts weren't quite as sacrosanct a few years ago...)
- Andrew C
if you use history as a proxy, any backlash against the wealthy turns into upheaval.
- grant fox
FF needs to one-up Facebook again and incorporate a "Don't Like" button. These dolts didn't even read the effing bill that they signed and now they're playing the victim. Approval for the AIG bonuses is written in the facking thing.
- Mattb4rd
the "wealthy" should be penalized because the cost of their wealth to the rest of society is simply too high. When babies are dying daily in Africa and generations like the Hiltons amass more wealth that they can possibly spend in their lifetimes it raises a moral issue. Our natural resources are a zero sum game. The more the wealthy have the less the poor have. The question is is it better for the richest to go without some of their perks if it would save thousands of human lives?
- Thomas Hawk
The cost of passing a law, and all the following administration changes etc. afterwards is going to absorb almost all the money taxed. This is just knee-jerk, "oops we messed up here but we need to do something else public opinion will be upset". Not smart - and just like they didn't realise what they signed back then, who knows what collateral damage will happen via that law? Most of...
more...
- Joelle Nebbe (iphigenie)
@Jason: While the wealthy already pay the lion's share of taxes, their tax burden is not too far off from their share of the wealth: http://www.project.org/images... I wish I had a more reputable source, but this graphic at least shows that there's some correlation between share of wealth and share of taxes.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
The wealthy should be penalized?? For what? Being successful? That's NOT what this nation was founded on. Freedom to exercize the rights to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness is what has made this country great. Take that away, and it will no longer be the U.S.A. Period.
- Mattb4rd
Jason: the 'wealthy' here are being "penalized" **because their company fell over a cliff**. AIG has effectively gone bankrupt, which is why the government had to bail it out over and over again. And in real bankruptcies, contracts like bonus payments get voided.
- Andrew C
Also, no, Jason, the top 1% pay 39% of the income tax. They earn 21% of all income. That said, it is always an incomplete picture to talk about taxes as SOLELY income taxes; the poor pay a larger share of their income in payroll taxes, sales taxes, and so forth.
- Andrew C
Jason, this only takes into account federal withholding taxes. If you add in all taxes paid (Social Security, sales, state income, auto registration fees, property taxes, etc.) the wealthy pay FAR less as a percentage of their income as middle and lower classes. Considering only one kind of tax is disingenuous at best.
- Jeff Jones
Joelle: for me, the outrage is in seeing AIGFP, the most catastrophically run division of AIG, in line for $450M in bonuses.
- Andrew C
Wealth creation by any means necessary should NOT be accepted in this country. Those who seek to get wealthy on the backs of the rest of us and offer no value to society whatsoever should be punished. A successful bank robber is still a crook and that's basically what these guys are...very successful bank robbers. They might as well be speaking German and fighting against Bruce Willis.
- Alex Scoble
No value to society Mr. Scoble? WTF? They E M P L O Y peolple. That employment enables them to pay for goods and services to elevate their lifestyle to a level that they would not be able to achieve without it. Wealth by any means necessary is NOT accepted in this country, ask Madoff. What you meant by that is "I, Alex Scoble, should be consulted before your business is allowed to engage in commerce.
- Mattb4rd
Matt, the idiots at AIG and a lot of these banks have created a huge net negative impact for the economy and are STILL getting paid huge sums of money. Sorry, but the amount of people they employ does not make up for that. These guys truly have destroyed any value they added to society. Then again apparently you think that robbing banks is ok too as long as you are employing people to do it.
- Alex Scoble
Jason, no, if they had done their jobs to the best of their ability, AIGFP would not have racked up contracts insuring trillions when they couldn't possibly cover them. They should be grateful they're not in jail already.
- Andrew C
Nice ad hominem, Alex. I thought you a more worthy word warrior than that. Perhaps the application of your own God-given sense would aid you rather than relying on Google?
- Mattb4rd
On that note .. far more important than this group-form mental masturbation is that Meagan Fox is indeed hot.
- Mattb4rd
Ad hominem? No, that wasn't an ad hominem. You are taking the side of crooks, liars and thieves. That's what these guys are. There's nothing noble in what these guys did to the economy. Then again maybe we are having separate conversations. I'm talking about the fat cats that got rich while building schemes that would ultimately lead to devastation in our economy. If you are talking about guys like Bill Gates, we are having two different conversations.
- Alex Scoble
"far more important than this group-form mental masturbation" - yeah, I'd say that too if I had no leg to stand on.
- Andrew C
Jason, no, that's the thing. AIGFP sold those famous credit default swaps and booked no assets in reserve against having to pay out. That's why their profits were so high in the boom years. That's why Cassano (head of AIGFP) stonewalled AIG's auditor when corporate tried to investigate what was going on. And that's why I say AIGFP execs don't deserve bonuses.
- Andrew C
Yeah, Andrew. They deserve jail time and to have all their assets stripped.
- Alex Scoble
This sets a VERY dangerous precedent. I want to see if there is an actual drop dead date set into the bill they just passed. If not then what's not to prevent these hypocrites in DC from imposing it on some other group of people to make themselves look good in the name of the people. I remind you Thomas that in the past eight years alone the U.S. sent over twenty BILLION dollars in aid to Africa for such examples as you mentioned.
- Mark Powell
Alex, Senator Dodd admitted that he lied and took out the language that would have prevented those bonuses to occur. Time to start spreading the blame on more than who were working under contract. Innocent or not they may be.
- Mark Powell
NO, don't do this crap - who's to stop the govt from doing to to all companies? not just federally funded ones.
- clarke thomas
@clarke: who's to stop them, indeed....seemingly no one.
- Craig Eddy
mark, $20 BILLION in aid is a good start. We could do more and do better though. Let's tax the estates of billionaires in the U.S. and start redistributing that wealth not just in Africa but all over the rest of the world as well including even the poor here in the U.S.
- Thomas Hawk
Thomas, spoken like a true Chestertonian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Not a complete solution but a good dent...and I like that last part. We "bury" our poor in this country (both working and abject and all the shades inbetween those two) and pretend they don't exist in order to support the ideal of the "American Dream". We just don't even think to look at them so they become invisible. Photographs from Africa have impact to be sure. But....
- Melanie Reed
But it should also be remembered that the poor in those countries are not poor because they have no money in those countries at all. They are poor because of the same distributivity problem: The money in those countries is being held in a small number of hands and it is very easy to blame the US for their troubles rather than hold the gov elite and elite of their own responsible.
- Melanie Reed