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David Vasileff
List of smoking bans in the United States - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
June 8
from Bookmarklet
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petar vucetin, RAPatton, Simone Riccardi and 27 other people liked this
very intersting... looks like there is a serious need to start emailing the state officials to keep the state on the healthy side
- Harold
Yeah hunt down the smokers....:(
- Adi
My favorite is that you can't smoke in Irish pubs even in Ireland. I don't even smoke, and I think it sucks. My opinion is if you don't like smoke, then don't go there and don't work there.
- Cristo
Odd color choices. White means all kinds of bans. My POV is that smoking should be outlawed in all public places - and that we should continue raising taxes for smokers.
- Mike Reynolds
Mike, I'm fine with taxes, but I hate the lack of freedom for anyone if you have a choice of whether to go there. Next up, banning cigar clubs.
- Cristo
Only in America would you get the 'freedom' argument FOR smoking. I'm of the opinion that it should be made completely illegal. Sure it'll piss some smokers off now, but in the future, our kids won't know the difference, and it'll save everyone a lot of pain.
- Will Higgins™
Will, ever been to Amsterdam? You'd probably want to outlaw smoking marijuana and drinking too, right? (Think of the kids) I think it's probably more than America that would disagree with your policy. I already said I don't smoke, but I do think if people want to smoke in designated pubs, that it should be allowed.
- Cristo
Wow...do people really see a reality here where the Gov't censures our current POTUS and citizens for committing an "illegal" and unconscionable act of smoking? "War on Drugs" on overdrive....
- Adi
I'm fine with smoking but I want a bubble or force-field around the smoker. If you want the smoke that bad, you get ALL the smoke. Let it soak into your skin and breath it in second, third, fourth hand. *I* don't want your smoke and I don't want to hear you moan about not wanting to stink up your car, or clothes or home.
- AJ Kohn
ditto what Harold said about Indiana.
- Kamilah Gill
AJ, so you agree that if there's a pub, you should have the choice whether to go or work there right? And as long as people smoke there and it doesn't come out into a mall or the street, you're fine with it.
- Cristo
Governments should make all the necessary steps to reduce smoking in the population: higher taxes, ban cigarette promotion/advertising, increase smoke-free areas, etc. After all of those steps, if people want to smoke in their own homes or in certain places without subjecting others to second-hand smoke, then fine. I guess smoking is still human rights, even though it means killing themselves
- Andre P. Siregar
Everything is killing yourself, including drinking beer and coke, eating hot dogs at ball games, and driving.
- Cristo
I've never been to Amsterdam. I'm not against alcohol. I am against Marijuana. I like AJ's 'bubble' idea. Do you guys know any smokers who are dying? I do. They're dying from smoking, and they smoked for no good reason. Therefore they're dying for no reason, and I think that's unacceptable.
- Will Higgins™
Cristo, but that's another discussion :-D
- Andre P. Siregar
Will, I'm against governments making decisions for me.
- Cristo
Cristo: so you're an anarchist?
- Will Higgins™
No, libertarian.
- Cristo
Close enough ;) jk. Governments make decisions for all of us all the time. While outlawing smoking would be wildly unpopular, it would be more beneficial to society then most laws they pass. Buying GM?
- Will Higgins™
Curious how outlawing smoking will play with freedom of religion, given that there are multiple religions that involve tobacco rituals...
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Will, slippery slope. I don't believe the majority knows what is best for me and those around me, and I believe a good part of enjoying life is individual freedom. That's why I'm glad we have a bill of rights in the US. Anyway, I'm arguing about smoking because of principle, not because I think smoking is a positive thing. I want the government to be spending less time outlawing drugs and sex, and more time on protecting us from murderers, rapists, and other violent crimes.
- Cristo
First they came for the smokers, but I did not speak out because I was not a smoker...
- Morton Fox
What Morton said.
- Christopher Harley
I don't get all this wanting to protect the smokers. Smoking is a choice. People shouldn't have to avoid public places because of excessive smoking. Let smokers do it in private. What if people wanted to say, take a crap in public? Would you get all hyper to protect that "right", too? (Bad example, maybe. It's late here.)
- Kamilah Gill
Leading a sedentary life is a choice. And people shouldn't. It leads to early death.
- Christopher Harley
Is that a response to me, Christopher? Someone else's sedentary life has little impact on me except for the possible eyesore created by their oversized backside. And maybe increased health insurance costs or something. Public smoke definitely has an impact on me.
- Kamilah Gill
Where in your comments have you discussed the impact that smokers have on you? EDIT: When I commented your post stopped at "People shouldn't.."
- Christopher Harley
mmhm. accidental Enter hit. anyway.
- Kamilah Gill
A lot of people feel as though they are impacted by the presence of cigarette smoke even when they themselves aren't present and may never visit the places that they demand remain smoke free. Honestly, this discussion touches on the more important point; freedom of association. Some places should just refuse to allow some people to work there or enter and as a result, bear the economic brunt of their decision.
- Christopher Harley
Cristo, would you get on board if the government tried to protect us against something that kills >400,000 people annually? That's the number tobacco kills every year in the US alone. And the government is not forbidding people to smoke -- people can still smoke in certain places. Governments put up all kinds of rules. In Singapore you're not allowed to import and sell chewing gums. Following rules is just part of being a citizen/resident.
- Andre P. Siregar
The mythical govt of said reality knows best... After all they are 'protecting' us from those vicious smokers...what's next in store? I can't begin to imagine.
- Adi
Andre, by that argument the fed is well within reason to outlaw fast food and other nutritionally void food, since it contributes to obesity which is related to more deaths each year than smoking.
- FFing Enigma (aka Tina)
Tina, there's too much debate on food to make it a law. Low carb vs. low fat, etc. The scientists/experts are not in agreement as to what food is "healthy" and "unhealthy". Also, obesity may not be 100% caused by food. Tobacco is different. Nobody says cigarettes are not hazardous to health.
- Andre P. Siregar
Andre, can you give us an estimate as to how long, in years, tobacco has been the cause of death for those who have smoked it? I presume you'll take into consideration its use prior to its introduction to Europeans.
- Christopher Harley
Andre, no. I think already stated my position. I also wouldn't ban driving, flying, or skydiving. Furthermore, as long as it's a personal choice, I don't believe we should have laws to prolong life. There are too many people in the world already. Finally, I'm fine with banning smoking in public, as long as public doesn't include a privately owned pub designated as a smoking pub.
- Cristo
Um, strange because smoking is banned in public places in Colorado with a few exceptions. Not listed that way.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
What are the exceptions, Eric?
- Christopher Harley
Oops, white is full ban, nevermind.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
Also, I think the Singapore rule of not chewing gum is stupid, as is people getting put in jail for 4 years in Dubai for having poppyseed or trace amounts of marijuana on their person.
- Cristo
Too much debate? LMAO.
- Adi
Businesses with less than 5 employees, smoking area in the airport, and I think the casinos at one point but that was reversed I believe. Would have to check. Edit: also forgot cigar bars.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
Christopher, I don't have the estimate, but I'm sure it's searchable. I'm not an expert, I'm just offering my opinions here in Friendfeed
- Andre P. Siregar
this thread is full of epic FAIL......I am borderline anarchist/libertarian. Government do more harm than good for all. I would have just left this thing along...but some of the views expressed in this thread are completely disgusting.
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
I understand that, Andre. But the fact that something contributes to one's decline in health is distinct in nature from something that causes one's death. Legislating against everything that contributes to a decline in the health of human beings leads us farther and farther away from personal freedom. Given that, where does it end?
- Christopher Harley
Christopher: you are wrong. What about MY freedom to be without smoke? That is the greater freedom. I am far more free today than 20 years ago.
- Robert Scoble
Where am I wrong, Robert? Stay away from smoke or be refused entrance where smoke is present. It's a win for you either way.
- Christopher Harley
so Robert, you feel it's ok to repress others' freedoms because you want to be more free?
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
I'm getting the feeling people are commenting now without reading the entire thread. Please don't drive by with your comments that don't consider other opinions in their fullness.
- Cristo
Christopher: we now know how restricting your world is. In my white world I am so much more free.
- Robert Scoble
Oh. man.
- Christopher Harley
Robert: Ever heard of the non-smoking section? You've had the right not to be around smoke for like 40 years dude. What about a business owners right to choose whether people are allowed to smoke in their establishments? Don't get me wrong, I don't totally hate the smoking ban here in Minneapolis (now statewide), because it gets me off the barstool for a bit... But the principal of the matter still bothers me.
- LarchOye
Your white world? What are you saying, Robert?
- Christopher Harley
@Robert...Wrong? If I could only live in your bizzarro reality...
- Adi
Robert....c'mon! that's.......oh dear god...I need to go outside and smoke one to calm down before i say something stupid
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
Christopher, I think he's referring to the map legend colors, but it's a poor choice of words.
- Cristo
Ahhh. I see.
- Christopher Harley
I thought we went off the rails for sure.
- Christopher Harley
LarchOye: anyone who believes in non-smoking sections also believes in non-peeing parts of pools.
- Robert Scoble
I agree there, Robert.
- Christopher Harley
Cristo: I was, indeed, refering to the chart above. I live in one of the white states.
- Robert Scoble
Mike: smokers take away my freedom to clean air. It's amazing how lame that argument is anymore. Even Europe is starting to grow up about this issue.
- Robert Scoble
Nice, a loaded analogy. Am I supposed to be impressed? Edit: Exactly...Bi-Coastal North America and Western Europe are the benchmark's of society...
- Adi
I agree about what you are saying about non-smoking sections, Robert. BUT....why is it up to the government to decide how businesses and people act? Shouldn't it be up to a non smoker to not patron a place that allows smoking, that business can then decide if they would rather ban smoking inside to bring more non-smoking customers in. That is freedom, not restricting one group of people to make your world more free!
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
People today are much more conscious of their 'freedoms'. I don't think making smoking illegal would lead to making other things illegal. The main difference between smokers and every other persecuted minority in history is that there's no reason to smoke, and it's something nobody should be doing anyways.
- Will Higgins™
Mike: because this is MY freedom you are talking about and when it comes to people's freedoms to take other people's freedoms away the government usually has to get involved.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I'll give you hospitals, schools, government property. Private businesses should decide for themselves if they can weather the absence of non-smokers.
- Christopher Harley
Will, ok so on that token, there's no reason to drink alcohol or smoke weed, or watch pron on the net, let's make that all illegal....we'll just all go around and act the same and do the same things just so we don't do anything that people think is stupid
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
Mike: why does the government have to get involved when it comes to murder? To drunk driving? To theft? To property rights? Hint: many people are boors and the only way they'll consider other people's freedoms over their own is if government is involved.
- Robert Scoble
Christopher: wrong. Wrong. Wrong. When it comes to my freedom no business should be able to choose. If that were true business could trample all sorts of my freedoms.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, in this thread it has been stated several times that if something affects other people negatively, it shouldn't be allowed. I disagree with you that there shouldn't be a place where people are allowed to smoke however. Would you close all the coffee shops in Amsterdam?
- Cristo
Christopher: in your world business would be able to decide whether to only serve men, or only serve white people, or to not serve handicapped people, or could decide to place me into slavery, if they wanted to (like businesses do all over the world, by the way, to their customers).
- Robert Scoble
Robert, you're right, they would. And at some point they would cease to do business because they would have alienated all their potential customers.
- Christopher Harley
Robert, without the government, you'd have other free market means of dealing with these people. It's a known fact that prohibition leads to more black market activity and more crime in ANY country. The whole problem we are dealing with right now is prohibition of drugs that is creating a huge crime problem because people can't freely trade or at least engage in free market activities. If everyone had access to things without the force of government.
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
Cristo: I'm cool with there being one place in the world to smoke. Las Vegas and Amsterdam are the two obvious choices. But there's a strong argument that the employees there are being harmed and that even there that smoking shouldn't be allowed.
- Robert Scoble
Mike: the free market argument sucks. I've seen what happens there. The rich beat up the poor. The ones with guns decide what the others will do. The bullies make the geeks do their bidding. I'm glad I don't live in such a world.
- Robert Scoble
In such a world Madoff rules the world.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I hate to tell you, that's happening now!
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
Robert, so you wouldn't allow smoking pot in coffee shops in Amsterdam? Is that correct?
- Cristo
Mike: exactly and I don't like it when that world happens. I like to live in a world where the government protects my freedom.
- Robert Scoble
"... one place in the world to smoke." - What a concession.
- Christopher Harley
What IS it about the south?
- Nick in Manila
Cristo: right. I would ban smoking in all public places. You should have places to buy tobacco or marijuana and smoke them in your own home.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, then you would be forcing those businesses to close. That's all they do. And the people that work there all smoke weed. So all you are doing is putting people out of work.
- Cristo
Robert, what about those who smoke in their homes in the presence of children? What should we do about them?
- Christopher Harley
Robert, our government "in the fight for freedom" has set up a constitutional-free zone within 100-mile radius of our border. The stories coming from these police check points that get setup there are horrifying. All in the name of freedom. Glad you enjoy your freedom so much!
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
Cristo: there are lots of jobs that we've decided to do away with.
- Robert Scoble
BTW, I'm glad you are in favor of allowing people to smoke in their homes. My apartment building in SF just outlawed all smoking the in the building, and there are old people who have lived there for 50 years that smoke.
- Cristo
Christopher: we have lots of laws against child abuse. I guess you think that people should be able to abuse their children in their own homes, right?
- Robert Scoble
Cristo: if you live in an apartment where the air is shared with other people, you shouldn't be able to smoke. Absolutely that is a great law.
- Robert Scoble
Do you make that inference from my questions about smoking as it relates to this argument or are you just trying to paint me as sinister?
- Christopher Harley
Christopher: anyone who tries to take away my freedom to clean air is sinister. Glad to see that societies around the world are starting to understand that.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, well we are just in violent disagreement then. I don't think you can wander into a shooting range and complain if you get shot because you walked in front of weapons. Your argument is there shouldn't be shooting ranges.
- Cristo
Cristo: I've been in shooting ranges. It's against the law to shoot people EVEN inside a shooting range.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, if you don't want to buy or smoke weed, why are you going into an Amsterdam coffee shop?
- Cristo
Cristo: buying weed is quite different from smoking it. You CAN enjoy weed without smoking it.
- Robert Scoble
For coffee?
- Micah Wittman
I was hoping you'd inch toward what is inevitable in this argument when we consider children and smoking; namely, have the state take them away and imprison the parents.
- Christopher Harley
Micah, in Amsterdam you go to cafes for that. Coffee shops are explicitly for buying and enjoying marijuana.
- Cristo
Christopher: so you think that child abuse is acceptable, right? As long as it's practiced within the walls of one's own home?
- Robert Scoble
WTF? Absolutely not.
- Christopher Harley
Christopher: then WTF are you rambling on about?
- Robert Scoble
Now I understand why they call Scoble the social media guy...
- Adi
Then the marketing is all wrong. But yes, whatever you call it, people figure out how to find what they want.
- Micah Wittman
I'm coming to the meetup tomorrow at pier 23, but I'm bringing cigars. :)
- Cristo
Cristo: well, it's in California so we can't smoke those in public places.
- Robert Scoble
Well they can arrest me then.
- Cristo
Cristo: you can earn a ticket, they don't arrest people for that. Business owners will kick you out, though, because their licenses can be yanked if they allow smoking indoors.
- Robert Scoble
Rarely have I seen you so cagey, Robert. I'll ask once more, now at the risk of rambling: Should the state intervene in the homes of smokers where children are present? Is there a safe limit of tobacco consumption where children are present? Should we set limits in homes or should it be zero tolerance.
- Christopher Harley
What happens if we organize a mob tweet-up, so 50 people show up smoking cigars at pier 23? :)
- Cristo
Christopher: in an ideal world, yes, but in the real world the cops have bigger things to worry about. Here in California we have parents killing kids by leaving them inside cars during the day: http://news.google.com/news...
- Robert Scoble
"... in an ideal world, yes." - Thanks.
- Christopher Harley
Robert, it's sad that you would use those parents tragedy for an argument. I'm pretty sure that wasn't intentional.
- Cristo
Christopher: it's shown that parents who smoke around kids cause harm to those kids. It's the role of a government to speak up for minorities or people who can't speak up for themselves. Cristo: I'm not using them for an argument, I'm using them as a demonstration that there's lots of stupid parents out there who bring harm to their kids and, yes, the government should get involved in an ideal world.
- Robert Scoble
The argument that you should be able to abuse your kids as long as it's inside the walls of your house is a really stupid one.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I think we should invent some technology to prevent accidentally leaving kids in cars, instead of the government getting involved. Also, I think cops should be spending time learning the difference between a gun and a taser.
- Cristo
Then do you see a time in the future when smoking in the presence of minors will be a crime?
- Christopher Harley
Cristo: technology costs money, so you just taxed EVERYONE, including people who don't have kids. Hey, are you a liberal? :-)
- Robert Scoble
Robert, so glad you condone the violence of government to rip apart families' lives so you can be more free. Nice. I'd prefer that government stay out of my damned life and those around me and let us live the way we want to live and if people have a problem with it they can confront US about the issue.
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
Christopher: yes I do. It's akin to feeding your kids just a little bit of poison every evening.
- Robert Scoble
Mike: got it. So you feel that parents should be free to abuse their kids and should be able to keep doing that, no matter what the consequences. Good one.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, I have some liberal views, but mostly on social issues. In general, I'm a libertarian. I think government is too big in general. I don't consider providing solutions to be taxing. It costs more to send the cops out to clean up the mess than it does to put an rfid in the babyseat and have the car sound an alarm if you leave it without getting the child.
- Cristo
That'll be an interesting world. Robert, you shouldn't assume that I smoke or that if I did, I would ignore the impact that it would have on kids. You've made me out to be something I'm not and that's not fair.
- Christopher Harley
Cristo: I actually am for putting those alarms in cars too, but I'm a liberal and feel it's OK to force everyone to pay a tax to protect innocents from the idiocy of others.
- Robert Scoble
Christopher, Robert makes his living being polarizing. Don't take it personally. :)
- Cristo
Christopher: again, WTF are you arguing about then? If you smoke outside where you just harm yourself and not your kids then we have nothing to argue about.
- Robert Scoble
"but I'm a liberal and feel it's OK to force everyone to pay a tax to protect innocents from the idiocy of others." ......*sigh*.....I'm done...you win
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
Christopher: Approximately 1500 kids are killed each year by fires in the home that were caused by cigarettes. Why don't we outlaw that?
- Robert Scoble
Mike: you pay taxes all the time for that kind of stuff. You ever see a barrier on a roadway? What do you think that is? It's a technology to protect me from idiocy. And it's paid for via a tax.
- Robert Scoble
What? I have no dog in this fight? I'll argue what I feel is germane to my personal freedom. You're arguing for unfettered access to private businesses you'll never frequent. What's the difference?
- Christopher Harley
Christopher: name one business I wouldn't frequent.
- Robert Scoble
Christopher: that kind of argument used to come up about bars. I go into bars regularly.
- Robert Scoble
In California bars actually became more popular after the smoking bans began.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, do you go skydiving?
- Cristo
Why name one? There's thousands that you'll never go to yet you need to be assured that they're ready for your arrival. Smoke free and fully compliant.
- Christopher Harley
Cristo: not regularly. But yes, I plan to do that.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, it's dangerous. Jumping out of planes, especially alone can be fatal.
- Cristo
Christopher: in California every business is smoke free and fully compliant. It's wonderful, because my freedom has greatly increased. They used to allow smoking on planes.
- Robert Scoble
So Robert, you are fine with people going to a bar, getting drunk, getting into a small tank, and driving home? Afterall, that's what bars are basically for.
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
Cristo: exactly. But in that case all you're killing is yourself.
- Robert Scoble
Yes, I remember.
- Christopher Harley
Robert, but if your chute accidentally deploys in the plane, it can take the whole plane down.
- Cristo
Mike: huh? Most people I know when they go to bars have other ways to get home than driving. Drunk driving is illegal in California.
- Robert Scoble
Cristo: what lengths are you going to go to to try to make a stupid argument?
- Robert Scoble
Whatever side of the debate one is on, what used to pass (25+ years ago) as a non-smoking section (restaurant, plane) was a joke. And of course it was, the expense of truly creating compartments with separate HVAC is too expensive for most businesses to gamble given a market-only driving force.
- Micah Wittman
Cristo: I just want to know, so I can gauge how much time I'm gonna spend on this one.
- Robert Scoble
19,001 feet, presumably.
- Christopher Harley
Micah: exactly. I still travel all the time and visit "non smoking sections." THey are 100% a total joke.
- Robert Scoble
Robert.....I'm....I'm at a loss for words. Your ignorance about reality is astonishing. You think a majority of people who go to a bar actually have planned rides home? Stunning...just....*sigh*
- Ⓐ ☠ slayerboy ☠ Ⓐ
from IM
Mike: sigh. No, but we have laws against doing that. And quite severe ones at that. Far more severe than a $50 ticket for smoking in California.
- Robert Scoble
Christopher, skydivers don't normally jump from more than 19,000 feet. There's an oxygen issue.
- Cristo
Robert, I'm going to give you a pass on calling my argument stupid, just because I'm in a good mood tonight.
- Cristo
Thanks. I made the necessary edit.
- Christopher Harley
Cristo: what are you smoking? :-)
- Robert Scoble
Robert, nothing unfortunately. But the wine is pretty good. :)
- Cristo
Cristo: ahh, I have to do too much to ship Building43 so no wine for me until Thursday.
- Robert Scoble
Well, goodnight everyone. I'm going to enjoy the jacuzzi tub in our partially finished bathroom while the government still allows it. ;)
- Cristo
Cristo: goodnight! Don't stay in there too long. Makes your skin all wrinkly.
- Robert Scoble
Well, this has been fun, Robert. Keep the dream alive.
- Christopher Harley