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David Recordon › Likes
OMG. Too bad prayer wasn't her solution to high gas prices, instead we got "Drill, baby, drill!"
Daniel Mietchen, AJ Batac :), smallq and 51 other people liked this
I wonder if that was also BP's disaster plan?
- Paul Buchheit
Prayer doesn't work. I know because Sarah's still able to speak.
- Jack&Cleo
This is not The Onion. CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2010.... Actual text of the resolution: http://www.legis.state.la.us/billdat...
- Tudor Bosman
Next headline: "US lawmakers issue fatwa against gulf oil spill"...
- Jérôme
Please make her go away.
- AJ Kohn
I've been praying for divine intervention to make her shut up and disappear.
- Jason Wehmhoener
prayer works for me
- Josh Haley
from iPhone
My fav was this one: http://twitter.com/SarahPa... "Extreme Greenies:see now why we push"drill,baby,drill"of known reserves&promising finds in safe onshore places like ANWR? Now do you get it?"
- Nick Lothian
Somehow I'm not surprised she hasn't heard of the Sidoarjo mud volcano. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Nick Lothian
* Head desk *
- Nicholas Kreidberg
She is truly bereft of reality.
- Natalie
The dimmest bulb in US politics: give up and despair.
- Björn Brembs
I *wish* she was the dimmest bulb.
- Michael R. Bernstein
i thought of mashing up a video with her and brittany "drill me baby one more time" but i thought why disparage Brittany she already has enough troubles.
- Robert Higgins
Nice one Google
Ariel, 何志通, Rebecca Sun and 117 other people liked this
Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin!
- TINY REPTILIAN PYROMANIAC
Sometimes I love Google.
- Curdy G
Awesome!
- Lo the Baker
Hah!
- Joe "Brrzzzzzzt" Pierce
AWESOME!
- Andrew David
Where do you see that?
- I like big Botts
Glen, go do a Google search for World Cup and scroll to the bottom
- Joe "Brrzzzzzzt" Pierce
aha
- I like big Botts
:))
- Alejandro
Cool!
- Ozgur Poyrazoglu
LOL
- Roberto Bonini
lol
- shin1ogawa
True - here's the link: http://www.google.com/search...
- Tim Tyler
cool
- Ralf Dooley
It lives!
Kevin Mohr, Bubba Botts, April Buchheit and 8 other people liked this
Bacon Cheeseburger Soup was one of my favorites at Google, and I just noticed that we had it here today at Facebook, though it's different from what I remember. I just now ate bowl -- it makes a tasty snack.
- Paul Buchheit
It has American cheese and AP flour? I'm surprised you made it home alive.
- Gabe
Yeah, maybe it's not 100% good. What is American Cheese anyway?
- Paul Buchheit
American cheese is a processed cheese product - not horrible, but not natural. But what is AP flour? [EDIT: Oh, duh. All Purpose. What's bad about that?].
- Laura Norvig
Laura: AP flour is just a refined food product. It's not that bad, but it's not as good as whole wheat flour.
- Gabe
I had breakfast with my brother today - he said he's on a diet - he only let's himself eat the stuff with the green labels at Google. It appears to be working!
- Laura Norvig
I've wondered how it tastes but it sounds pretty bad for you. Is it worth trying, Paul?
- Dan Hsiao
My heart, my heart!
- τorƍue
I would totally eat that, though. It sounds good. Just a small bowl. With a big salad on the side.
- Laura Norvig
Back when some US politicians started calling French Fries "Freedom Fries" because France wouldn't support the invasion of Iraq, Chirac's comment was, "In revenge, we will continue to call American Cheese, American Cheese."
- Bruce Lewis
Side rant: Real cheese tastes terrible. Seriously. I prefer processed cheese any day. Also, velveeta really is better than cheddar. Okay, rant over.
- Otto
Otto - is Miller Lite your favorite beer too?
- Robert Felty
No, because beer is not in the same category as cheese. Real beer has a good flavor. Real cheese does not.
- Otto
And you didn't call me?!
- April Buchheit
from iPhone
You're missing out, Otto. :) There are so many great cheeses out there.
- April Buchheit
from iPhone
Yeah, Otto that's kind of like saying you don't like the flavor of ice cream. There are so many completely different flavors of cheese. Maybe you just haven't found the one you like yet.
- Laura Norvig
from iPod
Every real cheese I've tried has tasted like complete ass. Okay, perhaps I haven't found the right one, but I'm definitely through trying them, because they all taste just awful. Also, almost all wine sucks. Yeah. I said it.
- Otto
Bruce, thanks for sharing the Chirac story. French are gourmets all over indeed :)
- Count Caturday
OpenID + OAuth 2.0 = OpenID Connect. @daveman692 I hope your OpenID Connect proposal becomes reality: http://www.webmonkey.com/2010...
David Recordon liked this
OpenID Connect looks like a cohesive, workable approach to federated online identity. I'm in! http://openidconnect.com/
David Recordon liked this
OpenID Connect looks like a cohesive, workable approach to federated online identity. I'm in! http://openidconnect.com/
David Recordon liked this
I really like the LRDD processor concept introduced in OpenID Connect. http://openidconnect.com/
David Recordon liked this
It's interesting that having my FriendFeed and Twitter set to public is completely unremarkable, but my using the same setting on Facebook seems like a big deal, e.g. http://blogs.wsj.com/digits...
Dave Martin, Glenn Slaven, Zu from AOD and 89 other people liked this
The first sentence of that article should explain the difference to you. If it doesn't, then I think you need to lay off the Kool-Aid for a bit. It's clouding your mind.
- Akiva
Were either Friendfeed, or Twitter, sold as a private place to interact with friends, to begin with?
- Jimminy, CoG of FF
Akiva, putting those two sentences next to each other does not mean that they are logically connected. I chose to make my settings more public. Why is that an issue?
- Paul Buchheit
Doesn't your Facebook profile have things like address and phone number?
- Gabe
Yeah, as I mentioned, I don't make phone and email public because I don't want sales calls or whatever.
- Paul Buchheit
"We made the site so that all of our members are a part of smaller networks like schools, companies or regions, so you can only see the profiles of people who are in your networks and your friends. We did this to make sure you could share information with the people you care about. This is the same reason we have built extensive privacy settings — to give you even more control over who you share your information with." - Mark Zuckerberg 9/8/06 - http://blog.facebook.com/blog...
- Carter ♥ HTML5
That's not the issue, Paul. The issue is that the privacy settings in Facebook can cause people to 'unwittingly expose' information about themselves. My FriendFeed and Twitter accounts are also public but I don't have my home address or phone number or anything linked to those accounts. You, of course, are far more educated about Internet privacy and whatnot than, say, Grandma Indiana...
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- Akiva
The point being that Facebook level-set their users to expect privacy as the DEFAULT. Twitter and Friendfeed never did that.
- Carter ♥ HTML5
Akiva, I'm pretty sure the default for home address and phone number is not "public". I only adjusted my defaults to make them more public, not less.
- Paul Buchheit
I think the 'big deal' portion has everything to do with original intent and marketing - Twitter and FF haven't been marketed as private. Facebook very explicitly started that way. In migrating away from their original ideas, the FB team as not been a) open or b) responsive about privacy concerns. I really respect your work, but FB staff dismissing these concerns because they don't...
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- Jennifer Dittrich
A Twitter or FriendFeed profile doesn't list your address, phone number, schools you attended, employer, personal interests, family members, birthdate, etc. If you fill in the blanks on a Facebook profile, all of that is shown.
- Rochelle
+1 Rochelle.
- Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Paul, you might be right. When I signed up for Facebook, the first thing I did was lock down everything that I wanted locked down. But not everyone is going to understand that. And it doesn't help that you guys are consistently changing (you may say, refining) how privacy is controlled which just adds to everyone's confusion. Combine that with the fact that it seems like your boss is...
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- Akiva
Perhaps you're reading too much into what I said. All I said was that I made my stuff mostly public, and that I've gotten a lot of value out of that.
- Paul Buchheit
I think we'll all look back on this transition from "privacy is essential" to "privacy is an obstacle" to be on the biggest bait-and-switches ever executed at scale (400+ million people).
- Carter ♥ HTML5
I locked down everything... And then everytime some new "feature" rolls out, I need to go back and "re-lockdown" stuff... It's annoying
- Jeff (Team マクダジ )
I probably have, Paul. I think I just saw your statement in contrast with the article and went with that.
- Akiva
+1 Carter re: biggest bait-and-switches ever executed at scale.
- Alex Schleber
I'm curious what everyone here is putting on their fb that is so secret? Maybe I'm doing it wrong. There are certainly things that I don't want out there (like my credit card numbers), but I'm not going to put that on my fb profile.
- Paul Buchheit
I don't think it's so much the information as it is the principle of the matter. But maybe that's just me.
- Derrick
Btw, I agree that there is a legitimate debate with respect to the way in which Facebook updates defaults, but that wasn't the topic we were discussing.
- Paul Buchheit
Really Paul? Look, in all likelihood Facebook, Zuck, and you are succeeding at pulling one over on hundreds of millions of people. And you know exactly what you're doing. Fine, you win, but please spare us this "innocent from the country" routine. A certain class of people (read tech geeks) are not fooled for one second.
- Alex Schleber
What Derrick said.
- Rochelle
Humor me Alex. I'm genuinely curious what people are most fearful about.
- Paul Buchheit
Example: I have friends on Capitol Hill in DC who are insanely paranoid about their public image, but still like sharing some fun photos or stories with close friends. That's one use case. There are MANY more. Please don't treat yourself as representative of 400 million people.
- Carter ♥ HTML5
It's simple really: I use Facebook to communicate with my Family and Friends. Those communications are *not public* and they're damn well going to stay that way. FriendFeed/Twitter are not places where I talk to family and friends.
- Otto
For example, why does one need to share a real name, or phone number at all? You don't have to do that with FriendFeed, or Twitter. Can you do that on Facebook at all?
- Derrick
The problem I have with the Facebook deal is that it was a bait and switch. They got people to sign up with this understanding that your info was in a closed system and seemingly secure unless you didn't want it to be. Then, after they got everyone to input their info, they said, "Hey, we changed our mind; we're going to give it to advertisers anyway. Quit if you want."
- rowlikeagirl
Paul: I get value out of having Twitter and FF completely public. Thats not the issue. The issue here is that FB was originally sold as a private service. Another thing. You and I may have seen value out of being completely public, but the only value to anyone about Grandma Indinana being completely public belongs to the knitting accessories advertisers.
- Roberto Bonini
Paul, for me, it's not a matter of fear but a matter of ownership. I'm definitely on the more paranoid end of the scale as I'm only marginally comfortable for people to know even what city I live in. On the other end of that spectrum are guys like Robert and Louis who put their cell phone number on the web and welcome people to call. I don't want any of my information going out of my...
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- Akiva
It's simple, Paul. While I agree that I myself never put much of anything into Facebook I might live to regret, the same isn't true for everybody else. Several examples curated over here: http://alexschleber.amplify.com/2010...
- Alex Schleber
This "value to advertisers" meme is interesting. It gets repeated a lot by bloggers, but nobody ever explains what any of this has to do with advertising. Ad targetting could be done regardless of privacy settings (just as Google does).
- Paul Buchheit
I have no problem talking to the world about things going on in the world. But that is definitely *NOT* what I use Facebook for. I use Facebook to talk to people I know about things going in our daily lives. I use it to communicate with my BBQ team members. I use it to talk to my mom and dad. None of that is useful for anybody else to know. Nothing I post on Facebook is useful in a...
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- Otto
You have a BBQ team? Is that as awesome as it sounds?
- Paul Buchheit
Yes. :) http://www.thequesbrothers.com
- Otto
Re "value to advertisers": by making more of FB public/open/crawlable, you can increase the volume of traffic/pageviews and ultimately increase impressions/clicks. Money in the bank.
- Carter ♥ HTML5
And for the record I don't have a FB account. In the old days, snail mail mostly guaranteed privacy for your communications by virtue of the fact that your communiques were physically sealed by you. That essentially is the analogue version of FB pre privacy changes, albeit not at scale. In other words, privacy was implicit in the social convention of exchanging snail mails. With FB,...
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- Roberto Bonini
Can anyone show up to those competitions and eat the food, or do you have to be judge or something? I'd seriously consider making the trip.
- Paul Buchheit
"Privacy is hard; let's have a BBQ!" :)
- Benjamin Golub
Judging is a process that requires certification and a class, sort of thing. However, the WCBCC here in Memphis next week has a "People’s Choice" category. Basically you pay like $4 and get to judge 5 different samples from 5 different teams. Repeat as many times as you want: http://memphisinmay.org/peoples... And then, of course, if you know somebody on the teams, and can talk 'em into it, then it's all you can eat... :)
- Otto
You cannot argue with a thread that gets derailed by BBQ. It's against the law.
- Akiva
Carter, I doubt it. Fb has a completely ridiculous number of page views already. The bump from searching random status messages or whatever would not be significant.
- Paul Buchheit
Speaking of profiles: Benjamin, you need to update yours to say "Facebooker", right? ;)
- Carter ♥ HTML5
Wow, I'm definitely going to have to go to memphisinmay sometime.
- Paul Buchheit
Paul, you can NEVER have too much traffic. Come on... anyway, this thread has made me hungry. And it's only 11am PST! :(
- Carter ♥ HTML5
Carter: As far as I know people that work here don't call themselves Facebookers. But I have that exact question listed in my Twitter profile: http://twitter.com/bgolub
- Benjamin Golub
Dang, now I want bbq.
- Derrick
"I promise Facebook will or will not take over the world with Likes, targeted ads, and evil privacy violat... oh look, there's a shiny BBQ object over here..." :(
- Alex Schleber
Paul, the issue is choice. Facebook users used to be more private by the nature of what Facebook was. It's great if some people want to be more public, but in the process of adding those features, Facebook has most definitely removed choices to keep many things private and essentially coerced more public settings, but yet still operates under a model where people's profiles are expected...
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- Tinfoil 2.0
from iPhone
I'm really glad Paul's talking about this - I wish more of the Facebook team would talk about intentions. I hear a lot through personal connections, but nothing makes a bigger difference than the internal team being willing to talk about this stuff with the public.
- Jesse Stay
I have no problems with aspects of my profile being public, but IMO the problem is that Facebook tends to go with default opt-in often enough, and in general isn't consistent with how changes are implemented and doesn't necessarily make it easy for users to know exactly what they're doing.
- Deepak Singh
+1 Jesse (as another FBer)
- Ashwin Bharambe
Here's my opinion: Facebook is in a no-win situation. If they stay private, everyone criticizes them as a "walled garden", and they can't grow as fast either. If they go public (yet keep privacy controls in place), everyone will criticize them for revealing too much information. I think Facebook's making the right move in making things more public so that future new users know without a...
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- Jesse Stay
Jesse, it ultimately doesn't freaking matter what Paul thinks their intentions are (so far he is sounding a tad naive here), only the eventual *outcomes*. Do you trust Mark Zuckerberg? How about Microsoft or anyone else who may one day buy or control Facebook?
- Alex Schleber
Then there's this: http://www.eff.org/deeplin... re: the new "connections" formerly known as Interests, etc. ... yeah, Paul, let's see your detailed response to what is said in that piece. Thanks in advance for not veering off into BBQ.
- Alex Schleber
FB Privacy concerns now bore me. For anybody interested in continuing BBQ talk: http://friendfeed.com/otto42... :-)
- Otto
Alex, ultimately you can't trust any company, can you?
- Jesse Stay
Otto, amen
- Jesse Stay
FWIW, Facebook does have a process for users to debate these terms - if enough users disagree Facebook will re-evaluate. I believe the last few times there weren't enough objections to change.
- Jesse Stay
Also, FWIW, the only information available by default is here: http://www.facebook.com/help... - specifically, "name, profile picture, gender, current city, networks, friend list, and Pages"
- Jesse Stay
I don't think it's that big a deal they're sharing that, personally. Heck, I give away my phone number and e-mail address on my blog, both publicly and in a parseable manner in the source code.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, that "process" is totally rigged. The problem is that users are lazy and stick to defaults (even if those default change over time). Asking lazy people to log objections is very cynical.
- Carter ♥ HTML5
Carter, and I don't think most users really care
- Jesse Stay
Well, they don't care * incrementally*. It's like the frog in the water that never notices the water is getting hotter until its too late :)
- Carter ♥ HTML5
Ye ye...keep telling yourself that, Jesse. I think TODAY's Facebook IM glitch proves that they still do care to some extent (if they are conscious of the issues at least). do you want all your instant messages to be public? How about your phone SMS and convos? What if the phone/cell co decides that all that really doesn't need to be private anymore, that your privacy is overrated anyway, and people should just get with the "new openness" program...
- Alex Schleber
Alex, you guys are way too paranoid. Just don't put anything online you don't want public and you're fine. That goes for Facebook as well. Educate people on that rather than saying "the sky is falling" with Facebook.
- Jesse Stay
"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."--Google CEO Eric Schmidt
- Ashish
Jesse - that is a fine thing to say if people are giving *warning* that what was default private has now become default public *before* it happens. With the changes recently made I now have people who are finding my best friends family members (both girls) because now my likes and wall posts are public. Now I have to stop communicating with them until I figure out all of the myriad ways to hide my FB data and even then the trust has been lost so I doubt I will continue.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Re: Eric Schmidt - search Google for "Eric Schmidt affair", good stuff! http://www.google.com/search...
- Carter ♥ HTML5
i miss friendfeed.
- Zee.
As anyone who's married knows, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.
- Darren
Facebook did what they had to do to compete long term in the ever changing social landscape.
- Darren
It was the right decision.
- Darren
Darren, even if FB considered it the proper decision (which I really hope they do for all the grief they are getting) it could have been executed in a more tolerant/privacy friendly manner.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
bear, consider the actions of recent Facebook's warning. It's clear Facebook wants to be more public.
- Jesse Stay
Darren.. I agree and they did it in a VERY impressive and powerful way. It even uses privacy rules in place since last Nov/Dec, so I don't understand *most* of the recent complaints.
- Chris Myles
Chris, agreed
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, Chris - that is great that they used existing framework as it did make it easier to check what changed. But what isn't great was the lack of info (and it could be because i'm just now a FB "power user") on the fact that my actions on other's posts/events now cause them to be more visible than *they* want.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Chris/Darren, just because "they did it in a VERY impressive and powerful way" doesn't mean we all have to like it. The same could be said e.g. for the Nazi's taking over Germany.
- Alex Schleber
Yeah, what LogEx, Akiva, Roberto, etc all said: FB started off closed. People signed on with a certain set of expectations. FF and Twitter started out open, people signed on to those two with different expectations. It's like why no one (reasonably) complains the bus is public but would complain if their taxi started picking up a bunch of other passengers midway - the rules changed midstream, to the detriment of the existing users.
- Andrew C (✓)
Oh wow - now Facebook is being compared to the Nazis? Really??? Except you don't have to be on Facebook. The Germans had no choice. I wish those with problems would just kill their accounts and stop complaining. This is getting ridiculous.
- Jesse Stay
And Godwin's Law is now in effect. It's been a fun discussion, but it's over.
- Geoff Schultz {TF}
BTW, I think most of the Facebook team would take serious offense to that Nazi comment
- Jesse Stay
Here is another "everything you ever do with/on the Internet is pretty much public" counter-example: Online Dating. Do you want all of your "dating graph" (any profile you ever checked out, messaged, etc.) made public? Yes, there is no absolute expectation of privacy - e.g. vis-a-vis the state/law/etc., but I doubt too many people would have started using these services if the companies had said: BTW, we will eventually make all of this information public or semi-public.
- Alex Schleber
Alex, personally, I don't have a problem with that, but I live a boring life. Again, don't use Facebook or a dating site if you have a problem with it.
- Jesse Stay
FWIW, those things get exposed all the time
- Jesse Stay
...and yes, I agree that one should think twice about posting/using anything on the Web, but that doesn't mean all privacy questions are a binary decision. Just because someone can get to certain information somehow, is NOT the same as a company shoveling it out the door with all hands on deck... as is now the case with FB "Open" Graph.
- Alex Schleber
Jesse - will you please *stop* saying "or a dating site if you have a problem with it"! FB started as a private way to share personal information *by design* and then it changed how it works. If FB would let me delete my account and *my data* then I would have done that the first time they changed how things work.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bear, why can't you delete your Facebook account? It's quite simple. Do it, so long as you stop complaining.
- Jesse Stay
Wow.
- Derrick
Alex, have you ever seen the information Google has on you? Google has much more than Facebook right now, and you probably don't even know it.
- Jesse Stay
@jesse - i'm not complaining about anything except the pious holier than thou way you keep saying "hey, if you post in public you get what you get" while completely ignoring how the rules got changed under the FB users feet. PLUS you can't DELETE an account - it just gets "deactivated" and all of the data remains.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bear, no rules were changed since December. Features added, yes, but nothing changed. BTW, I'm pretty sure you can delete your account entirely. If not, they can't do anything with the data after you cancel, at least per the terms (only thing they can do is keep it on your friends' news feeds, which I think makes for a much better experience).
- Jesse Stay
@bear: True account deletion is possible: http://www.facebook.com/help... (Note: it takes 2 weeks of deactivation before they actually delete the account).
- Otto
Evidently this is a holy war now
- Jesse Stay
Expectations are fine but times change, facebook started three years before twitter and the only content they have required to be public is your name, profile photo, gender, list of friends and pages you are a fan of (like). They did it using a very public method that forced *everyone* to review and double check their settings and they told you they were migrating to the more public...
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- Chris Myles
Jesse, I was merely referring to Chris' use of "they did it in a VERY impressive and powerful way", to which you agreed. As in: that alone isn't a freaking criterion for anything.
- Alex Schleber
I wonder if Paul regrets making this particular thought public? :P
- Carter ♥ HTML5
Chris, amen
- Jesse Stay
Bear, you can either delete or deactivate. Here's the link to delete: https://ssl.facebook.com/help...
- Rochelle
Alex, I was giving kudos to Paul.. I'm impressed, it's powerful. I also don't feel my trust has been violated because I kept up with the privacy changes (http://www.eff.org/deeplin...). I'm looking for people who are ready to move forward (http://friendfeed.com/chrismy...).. I remember these exact arguments last year, I'm ready to move on!!
- Chris Myles
Jesse: To some people, not using Facebook is like withdrawing from society.
- Gabe
Carter, I am glad he did, this needs to be discussed. I just hope he's been working on FB messaging platform, and therefore doesn't have full visibility to what Zuck has cooked up here. The true implications of this likely won't be apparent for another 1-3 years. I really do hope that Paul's/Jesse's et al. best-case-scenario, optimistic view actually comes to pass. But I'm not holding my breath either.
- Alex Schleber
exactly Gabe, the "people can just leave" argument is getting pretty naive at this point. See here: http://alexschleber.amplify.com/2010...
- Alex Schleber
Gabe, in that case, just be careful what you put online. If you're that paranoid, kill your account. Heck, kill your internet connection. There is no such thing as perfect privacy.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, please stop the "perfect privacy" straw man argument. There is no perfect anything, so does that mean we can't have an opinion?
- Alex Schleber
Jesse: Also, I recall from a movie or TV show trailer a few days ago: "You're being paranoid. That's what someone says right before they betray you...". Frankly, it's also a not-so-thinly-veiled insult as well, since you are referring to us per a DSM-IV diagnosable mental disorder criterion. Just saying...
- Alex Schleber
Alex, you may have an opinion, but your argument on Facebook doesn't make sense if you think your privacy can never be exposed. Same goes for Google, Gmail, Orkut, Private Twitter accounts, or any other service where privacy is expected. These things are exposed all the time, often without you knowing - that's a fact of life. Don't put it online if you don't want it exposed. All the complaining and opinions in the world won't stop that.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: That's a poor argument. Being exposed by accident or via a bug is different than being exposed by design. I'd prefer to live in a world where private information can be both online and shared and still well-protected by a proper set of controls. You don't need perfection to achieve this goal. However, you do need to stop moving the target around.
- Otto
Alex, sorry but to think that nothing will EVER change is also naive.. I think we've all gone a little extreme to make our points. There is nothing wrong with strong opinions and even expectations but there HAS to be a balance. facebook has done a reasonable job considering they have a microscope us their a$$ and not everyone will be happy with their changes.
- Chris Myles
CW, come on - so you're offended that your name, gender, city, network, and friends same info are exposed as you browse the web? Nothing else is exposed, unless you opted in.
- Jesse Stay
Oh, and the fact that you "liked" it, but that too is opt-in
- Jesse Stay
Google has a really good position paper on opt-in vs opt-out http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/ahrc.... (if anyone is interested).
- Chris Myles
"dont put it online if you dont want it exposed" - that is both fair and unfair. True - the only 100% privacy is if you never share anything but that's hardly useful. I think people are entitled to feel that a breach of some covenant has happened when something that used to be under our control (who gets to see what) gets changed and taken out of our control, and automatically shared...
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- Iphigenie
Maybe it would help if Fb had a feature that showed the list of people who had access to what information and why. That way I could say "If I click 'Like' on this post, who will be able to tell", and decide right then if it was worth clicking.
- Gabe
Jesse, that's simply not true. When I went to the settings page I have a screenshot of here: http://alexschleber.posterous.com/this-is... ALL of those options were CHECKED by default. And FB has hidden this most important "what my friends can propagate about me" setting 2 layers deep...
- Alex Schleber
First, kudos for Paul & Facebook insiders who *dialog* publicly about the elephant in the room. BUT, bottom line: Privacy as normative bait & switch and opt-out settings. Apple gets lauded for 'Hardware-Software That Just Works'; if a modicum of evidence existed that FB has the ethos of 'Privacy That Just Works', there would be more support from the tech-competent and Facebook-history aware public (a small, but influential slice of the whole).
- Micah
CW, they told you about the changes and even forced you to accept LAST NOV/DEC (see link above). Are you a fan of the site governance page (which announces future changes to get voted on)? If you don't feel comfortable what are you doing using the tool?
- Chris Myles
Although I agree with Paul that it should not be that big a deal that he chose to make his profile fully public (with tiny exceptions) to people - that has never been the problem for me, and I found the flexibility of sharing to a list only to be mostly a matter of courtesy (dont bore school friend with technical shares, or the wrong language) rather than privacy (I always treated it as...
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- Iphigenie
Alex, Did you take a screen shot last Nov/Dec? both of those settings were available for your review then http://www.cynicsunlimited.com/2009....
- Chris Myles
And, provincial as it may be, I'm looking to Josh's dramatic reading of this thread. (**Special Mention**: GO TEAM BBQ!) #JoshHaley #DramaticReadingBOD
- Micah
that's it, i'm off to chop peppers in farmville ;)
- Iphigenie
OK so obviously there has been a HUGE uproar about this last year and again now.. I've had messages from friends on facebook warning of the dangers and facebook has publicly stated they are trending toward the public social norm.. I was in the middle of no where for 5.5 years and I knew what was going on with facebook. We can't second guess and protect everyone.. but messages were...
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- Chris Myles
I'm just going to let Chris fight this for me - he's doing a great job. I'm behind you all the way Chris! :-) (and I totally agree)
- Jesse Stay
But yeah - even my Mom asked me about the changes last Nov/Dec
- Jesse Stay
Sorry Jesse, I'm on my last legs here. Privacy, expectations, trust and comfort are all VERY personal and people have to make their own choice!! Don't like (trust,respect) it.. leave. Worried everything will become public someday.. don't share private things. Double check your settings, ask questions, read every future dialog/message and assume future features will default to public sharing.. that's what I'm doing (and have always done). Facebook and me.. we're good!
- Chris Myles
Chris, I am too - none of this uproar makes sense to me, but I'm losing energy to fight it. As Otto said, the privacy uproar is getting boring.
- Jesse Stay
and that is why I am so glad you are not on the Facebook team dealing with Privacy - the fact that you find something that others find important as boring and not worth discussing. The issue boils down to what a reasonable/non-guru user of FB can expect in regard to their privacy and the answer is that they can only expect FB to change things without notice and to continue to make things opt-in that used to be off by default.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bear, it's not that I don't find it boring - I find the fact that we're repeating ourselves over and over again boring and the fact that people like you keep spreading false information like "you can't delete your account" boring.
- Jesse Stay
I wasn't spreading false information, I was stating my opinion and it was corrected. At the time I last looked at my FB, which was the last time they changed privacy defaults, I could not fully delete it. Now I find you can - so for the folks who come to me for help with computer stuff I can point them to that page if they want. Me personally, I live in this bleeding-edge world and know how to deal with it. A lot of the points I raise are proxy items from the folks who look to me for help.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bear, also, since December, Facebook hasn't changed any previous privacy settings. They've added features since, but your privacy hasn't changed.
- Jesse Stay
from iPhone
Jesse - the impact of what was left as a default value changed. I say that as a casual user because people are finding me via FB that were not finding me previously via my network and city settings.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bear, and you still have the option to opt out if you think it's a bigger impact. Everyone was notified 6 months ago exactly what was public and what was private.
- Jesse Stay
from iPhone
The minimal information exposed really isn't that big an impact though, I don't think.
- Jesse Stay
from iPhone
again, can you read what i'm saying ... I went into the settings 6 months ago and opted out of a lot of things and now I went back into it and items are now appearing with more options to select than were previously available. So the net change may be giving me more choice but some of the default values were tweaked to a more public view than I expected.
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Facebook even sent out an email notifying people
- Jesse Stay
from iPhone
Jesse, do you think the fact that you are in a part a FB developer (through SocialToo, other?) may taint your point of view here a bit? Are all those people worried about aspects of this (Scoble, Om, various Google developers, etc. etc.), are we all "paranoid"? BTW, I haven't said one thing about account deletion.
- Alex Schleber
Jesse I think often forgets that as a FB dev he often sees these changes long before others and has an fuller mental skeleton of what the interactions are than the "normal" user (IMO)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bear, I deal with the normal user more than I do developer. Most normal users don't care.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, BTW, the settings from 6 months ago (I for one overlooked the "What your friends can share about you through applications and websites" settings, and I am at least semi-savvy on this sort of thing) don't mean much, because ***THEN we didn't know that the entire thing was going to be shared with every possible site out there implementing "Open" Graph with a few copy&pastes.*** If the same stuff was already discoverable through Facebook Connect, then I missed that, ...
- Alex Schleber
Jesse - then we inhabit totally different realms of "normal" - by far everyone who I deal with is hating on FB for these changes :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Alex, yes, you missed that
- Jesse Stay
Bear, are those you deal with primarily in Silicon Valley? ;-)
- Jesse Stay
Jesse - actually no - I live on the east coast and in a rurally conservative area. as far away from Silicon Valley as my job allows :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
... AND of course a lot fewer sites implemented FBConnect (because it was harder), showing up on a site required login with FBC there instead of it being automatic as it is now. Etc.
- Alex Schleber
Alex, actually, name, location, gender, profile pic were all available without login via FB Connect before
- Jesse Stay
Yes, but what about Interests, Religious orientation, etc. etc. ?!?
- Alex Schleber
Alex, and tens of thousands of sites were implementing FB Connect as that information was available
- Jesse Stay
Alex, that info isn't available as public by default right now
- Jesse Stay
"right now" - that's the battle we're all fighting - for people that care about these things, we can't promise that it will remain any certain way
- Christopher Galtenberg
And don't forget the raising of the 24-Hour limit on keeping data going away. That is a bit of a change, no?
- Alex Schleber
FYI From Nov's update "Information set to “everyone” is publicly available information, may be accessed by everyone on the Internet (including people not logged into Facebook), is subject to indexing by third party search engines, may be associated with you outside of Facebook (such as when you visit other sites on the internet), and may be imported and exported by us and others without...
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- Chris Myles
The whole 24 hour limit thing is just recognition of the de-facto situation anyway. FB never had any real way to enforce that limit or how people treated the data that was received.
- Otto
Christopher, Facebook hasn't made any moves to signify that will be changing any time soon. Not sure what you're getting at.
- Jesse Stay
(Christopher G)
- Jesse Stay
"any time soon" <- that
- Christopher Galtenberg
Christopher, you can say the same about any other company that holds your data - still not sure what you're getting at
- Jesse Stay
Yes you do
- Christopher Galtenberg
Christopher, no I don't (???)
- Jesse Stay
I really hope that Zuckerberg turns out to be a benign dictator...
- Alex Schleber
Alex, :) me too!
- Chris Myles
Wow
- Jesse Stay
Re: benign http://www.businessinsider.com/10-reas... - sorry if I'm trolling, just my friend graph can't stop talking about this
- Christopher Galtenberg
Look we can't even talk about what has happened, let alone what might. I trust they will give me notice of future changes and no I'm NOT naive.
- Chris Myles
Chris, yeah - they haven't violated my trust, yet.
- Jesse Stay
Oh great - now Louis Gray shared this on Twitter. Are we going to have to repeat this again? ;-)
- Jesse Stay
Christopher, you should read some of the comments on the original post here http://www.rocket.ly/home.... Personally I have no tolerance for overly sensationalized blog posts, I like to make decisions based on facts!!
- Chris Myles
Jesse, because you've essentially said you have no trust. (don't put anything online you don't want broadcast). Most FB users were led to believe they *could* trust FB with personal information.
- Tinfoil 2.0
from iPhone
LogEx, I haven't said that either. I feel like I can trust Facebook.
- Jesse Stay
I read the comments. I'm saying that my FB graph is abuzz about the article, and my friend count is dropping. The article matches the sentiment about FB perfectly. That's what matters, not that point #9 is invalid (it is).
- Christopher Galtenberg
If FB allowed for a permanent "opt-out of public data until I say otherwise" that NEVER had to be revised whenever a new feature came along, some of the privacy complaints would be moot. However, this goes against FB's business interest of trying to have it be a more public system(as is alluded to in this thread).
- George S.
Looks like it's me, Jesse and Paul :)
- Chris Myles
Regardless, a great deal of data is also shared by various FB apps (e.g. when the user gets the dialog requesting that data is shared). This is a backdoor into their "private" data, so to be truly private you'd have to opt-out of many FB apps as well (unless they changed their policies).
- George S.
BandCentral, a Basecamp for Bands, Launches Today http://goo.gl/fb/AHqJv ReadWriteWeb.com #startupreviews
- Jean-Marie Gall™
from twhirl
*sigh* - this is going in a loop
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, you said "Don't put it online if you don't want it exposed" in this thread and similar statements in other forums. It's fine if you personally trust FB with your info, particularly since you don't seem to acknowledge that there are valid reasons for people to want and need privacy in their online interactions. But millions of other users don't feel that way, and have been and...
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- Tinfoil 2.0
The fact that there is so much controversy in this thread (and many others like it) are: (1) people want things from Facebook that Facebook no longer delivers; (2) it's difficult to know (particularly for laypeople who don't follow every little move like we all do) what exactly happens with your data and what may happen in the future.
- Tinfoil 2.0
LogEx, that was in response to people paranoid about the existing Facebook privacy preferences. If you have a problem with your name, city, profile picture, and network being exposed, best not to put anything online. Nothing has changed from Facebook.
- Jesse Stay
Johnny, NO, it is no longer possible. It used to be.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Johnny, your name, city, profile picture, network, and friends will always be visible. Everything else (assuming you don't like anything) can be locked down.
- Jesse Stay
LogEx, that's only part of the story - you seem to have an agenda - share what I shared if you want to share the whole story.
- Jesse Stay
Before November, the only thing required to be public were your Name and Networks. Friend List, Pages, and "Connections" can be very sensitive. People were brought up in Facebook believing that they had a private place if they wished to interact with friends and family.
- Tinfoil 2.0
LogEx, that is correct, and they sent you an e-mail notifying you that was changing. That is the only thing that has changed in years.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, my agenda is, and always has been simple: maximize choice for users so that they can be AS public or AS private as they wish.
- Tinfoil 2.0
LogEx, Facebook is *all about* choice. Lock 'er down. The only info exposed is what I listed above. Do you really have a problem with that?
- Jesse Stay
Try getting as granular as you can with Facebook on Google or Twitter - you can't.
- Jesse Stay
Also note that even Twitter private profiles expose more information than what Facebook does by default.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, part of this issue is trust. FB has a reputation problem, which the "only thing that his changed in years" has a lot to do with. It's a very significant change. Additionally, that "granularity" is both a blessing and a curse. Is there a "One Button" privacy feature? Because some people don't WANT granular.
- George S.
Google knows remarkably little about me, due to the way their services are architected and due to the tools they provide. And, yes, I do have a problem with Facebook steadily removing privacy choices in Nov/Dec and again in April. People are now forced to share more. You can no longer "lock 'er down".
- Tinfoil 2.0
George, one privacy change in 3 years is a pretty good reputation.
- Jesse Stay
LogEx, I think you're naive in thinking that Google knows little about you
- Jesse Stay
I don't think that logic is meaningful, because it's a pretty fundamental policy change
- George S.
George, everyone has had the opportunity to delete their Facebook account if they choose. It's not a whole lot of information they exposed. Also, the entire Facebook population was given the opportunity to debate the change, as Facebook allows for any policy change. A very insignificant amount of people did.
- Jesse Stay
FWIW, even before the change there was info, such as your profile pic and name that were exposed to the public - that has always been the case.
- Jesse Stay
I'm not being at all naive Jesse. I use multiple Google accounts and have never populated any Google profiles with real world information about myself. I won't bore you with other details about how I manage my relationship with Google.
- Tinfoil 2.0
LogEx, you are definitely not the normal user then
- Jesse Stay
Also, "It's not a whole lot of information they exposed" - shouldn't that really be for each user to decide? Not all half billion users are privileged white males who don't have to worry about nuances of what might get exposed about their interactions with friends and family (and around the web).
- Tinfoil 2.0
LogEx, you're on the web, on a social network that gets indexed by search engines - delete your account if you don't like that. I think it's a rather paranoid move if you're really bothered by that, though. Google and Twitter expose default information about you as well.
- Jesse Stay
pain = (user-count * new-feature-impact ^ trust-involved). Everyone for or against any certain social network or policy knows that. Another axiom: The fans of the network in question will always act blinkered; the antagonists will still use the network within 60 minutes.
- Christopher Galtenberg
Christopher, you are exactly correct
- Jesse Stay
I think this argument isn't really about "default" information. Any service where you identify as a "real" person requires you to share this information. Though it is worth noting that Facebook expects you use your real name, while other services (i.e. Twitter) allow for more anonymity if you so choose.
- George S.
George, what is this argument about then? I've lost track.
- Jesse Stay
Yes, George S. makes an excellent point. Google and Twitter absolutely do not require your real world identity. Facebook collected hoardes of private real world identity info, THEN declared that much of that was being forced public (or coerced through UI).
- Tinfoil 2.0
LogEx, you're sidetracking the fact that your name has been public for quite some time now
- Jesse Stay
(goes to look up the default information listed in I'm on Facebook--Now What??? back in 2007)
- Jesse Stay
This betrayal of trust shows two things: 1) FB is afraid of losing the real-time search content to Twitter and 2) Zuckerberg has learned *nothing* from the Beacon disaster.
- Dave Hodson
Dave, what betrayal of trust?
- Jesse Stay
Feels like he's repeating himself -->
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: betrayal of trust -- users expect their data to be private. Pulling a fast one on them with new "default" settings that remove privacy setting is a betrayal.
- Dave Hodson
Understands why Paul has given up on this conversation -->
- Jesse Stay
Because you are not listening to the valid concerns of others.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Dave, nothing fast has been pulled - read my comments above
- Jesse Stay
Jesse: I have a teenage relative. I went through this person's profile and was shocked what the "suggested" defaults now expose to the world.
- Dave Hodson
2 of the key privacy concerns on FB are more about 1) change from default-private to default-public, 2) How your other information is used by 3rd parties (e.g. Apps, etc., like when the app asks to share your info). In #2, most people just blindly "Allow". But they don't really know what they might be sharing, or to whom.
- George S.
LogEx, I've heard it all - none of it is making sense. No privacy settings were removed this time around.
- Jesse Stay
George, there has *always* been information available as public
- Jesse Stay
They absolutely were changed in April via Connections.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Jesse, I don't think you're grasping what I'm saying.
- George S.
In 2007 they made all profiles on Facebook indexable by Google, to the extent of your name and some other small information (I'll look it up when I get home)
- Jesse Stay
From another FF conversation: "The best privacy setting of all is yourself." Only give FB what you want to show up on CNN.com. Which for me is pretty much nothing now.
- Christopher Galtenberg
LogEx what was changed?
- Jesse Stay
Christopher, I agree with that
- Jesse Stay
Jesse - perhaps you don't agree with my thoughts, but at least agree that there is negative sentiment out there about this and FB hasn't done a good job of clarifying changes.
- Dave Hodson
Dave, your thoughts are 100% incorrect - it's not that I don't agree. It's that they're completely false.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse - wow, that is really funny. I don't know that I've ever been 100% incorrect before. Glad you have an open mind on this topic.
- Dave Hodson
LogEx, you were given the opportunity to opt out of connections. If you don't like it, kill it.
- Jesse Stay
Right, delete large sections of profile because FB no longer allows you to share them privately. That sounds like a great feature.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Dave, you're not listening to me - your information has pretty much always been available as public. When did you first create your Facebook account?
- Jesse Stay
Name and Networks have historically been the only things public.
- Tinfoil 2.0
LogEx, then delete your Facebook profile if you don't like that. You have plenty of choice. Nothing is being taken away from you.
- Jesse Stay
LogEx, you are correct.
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, that's what you don't get. The point is that FB has been steadily removing choices.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Jesse - I'm listening, I'm just 100% incorrect
- Dave Hodson
Dave, exactly
- Jesse Stay
Delete your profile = choice?
- Christopher Galtenberg
Christopher, yup, that's still choice if you're offended by that little information being shared about you. Are you really *that* reliant on Facebook?
- Jesse Stay
FB has become so so insistent at removing choices at the privacy end of the spectrum while boosting choices at the publicity end. To deny that people have at least as much need of privacy as they do of publicity is naive and dangerous.
- Tinfoil 2.0
These things are tools - if they're not useful any more, don't use them.
- Jesse Stay
LogEx, "*so* insistent" - 2 times in the last 3 years?
- Jesse Stay
Sorry, my cut-and-paste typo.
- Tinfoil 2.0
We know what you're saying, Jesse. Thanks for representing. And actually, am about to find out how dependent I am/was -- interested to see.
- Christopher Galtenberg
Everyone knows the CIA has been behind FB from day one, zuck is just the faceman.
- Geoff Schultz {TF}
The more you apologize for what everyone is trying to tell you is wrong, the more guilty you look. Stop apologizing for Facebook, Jesse. People shared who their real friends were, using their real names, and even tagged pictures of their kids, because they were told it would be safe and private. Now that hundreds of millions of people are locked in, Facebook is forcing its "privacy doesn't exist" model on them. It's fucked up and you know it.
- Mr. Gunn
I don't have a problem with the changes in privacy settings (and I'm a lot more paranoid about privacy then Paul is). I DO care about the "pre-approved data sharing" though. I don't want CNN to be able to link the stories I read with my real name because I'm concerned about the potential to link me-as-a-real-person to a profile based on news stories I read.
- Nick Lothian
One might be quite happy to walk down the beach with a wife or daughter, knowing that a handful of people might be looking at them lasciviously. Having someone collect pictures of them and a lot of private data under the false pretence of privacy and trust and then start sharing them around is a different thing entirely. The word pimp springs to mind. IMHO of course.
- Jan Simmonds
+1 Mr. Gunn. Wow, quite the conversation while I was gone. I agree with @Zee much further up: I miss the old Friendfeed conversation days...FF was never the same after the buy-out shock. "Damn you Zuckerberg for siphoning off the FF team to slave away in the FB salt mines"...
- Alex Schleber
See also: Facebook’s Paul Buchheit ***justifies*** increasing openness, less privacy http://social.venturebeat.com/2010...
- Alex Schleber
Paul, For starters - both FriendFeed and Twitter have not changed their privacy policy as frequently and as ominously as Facebook has. :( And, I DON'T WANT ALL OF MY FRIENDS TO KNOW WHAT I AM DOING ON THE WEB - GOD DAMN IT. :)
- Space Cowboy
Alex, you have an incredible talent for spinning context and slicing and dicing a conversation to *amplify* your point of view. Did you read the post you linked to? It says the exact same thing as the one Paul linked to above.. and there was no justification, just Paul's reasons for opening up his settings. I'm sure he's quite comfortable given his friendfeed history, it doesn't mean you or anyone else has to be!!
- Chris Myles
I watch "best of day" emails from FriendFeed every day and this is the first one that got me excited about coming into FriendFeed for more than the past month. Is FriendFeed coming back? This thread shows it has the potential to.
- Robert Scoble
Robert, While you're here.. what are your thoughts?
- Chris Myles
People realizing that FB is basically a public network now should actually consider the best open public sharing network: this one.
- Christopher Galtenberg
Christopher, there is *nothing* better than friendfeed (for me).
- Chris Myles
Agreed - feels like a secret that people are yet to wake up to - almost everything good you want to do on the web you can do here (share, save, learn, filter, search, group, like, nudge, chat, dialogue)
- Christopher Galtenberg
I even use private groups with *great* success!
- Chris Myles
The real issue here, is that it's only us geeks that know there's a real facebook privacy issue OR give a shit. Most "normal" people have no idea their "private" info is wide open or that Zuck's constantly changing the rules of the game. That said, no one's forced to use FB. BTW: I'm 99.9% certain Zuck's gonna get away with this bait & switch bullshit.
- Jim Connolly
Oh - and Friendfeed is MASSIVELY better than Facebook.
- Jim Connolly
Been on-line since 1989, for someone who wants your information, there is no such thing as private information in a community environment.
- Justin Hitt
1UP Jim.
- Derrick
Chris, 1) of course I read the post I linked to, and apparently VentureBeat came away with a similar impression, that Paul's forays on this stuff have a tinge of "justifying." Look, it's OK, in the end FB can & will do whatever it wants, it's just that this strange "what privacy issues?" sermonizing is giving me the willies. Too much FB kool-aid already. And there seem to be a lot of other people on this thread who have similar feelings.
- Alex Schleber
Justin, there's no such thing as an unstealable car either, but that doesn't invalidate the purpose of door locks.
- Micah
... 2) I whole-heartedly agree that FF still rules, even though there has been no development in nearly a year, which is shocking if you think about it. I really wish FB hadn't bought these guys out, they could have done much better work here FASTER. Hey, money is money. After the buy-out, things went all emo on here though...so it hadn't been particularly useful for tech discussions. Nothing wrong with how the remaining folks use it, but that had never been my use case.
- Alex Schleber
3) I am very happy to see that despite out differences, we can all still agree on Friendfeed being a superior solution. It's a shame that Google hasn't done a better job with Buzz (why is frankly beyond me), they could have done a FF++ and things would have been gravy...
- Alex Schleber
4) BTW Scoble seems to be of two minds about it, he knows what FB is up to (and has argued that pretty much nothing can be done about it anymore), but also likes spying on other people's musical tastes on Pandora, etc. :) He gets "great value from that"...
- Alex Schleber
Robert Scoble: FriendFeed is growing slowly. It's not a big-audience site like you're looking for, but it's still a place for great discussions.
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce, that may be true but Robert's stated time and time again that he prefers tech-oriented discussions over anything else. Once he couldn't successfully get tech people to commit to FriendFeed, he wandered back to Twitter... or was it Buzz? Maybe it was Facebook. I can't remember.
- Akiva
Don't you mean: FF is slowly returning to what it used to be.
- Roberto Bonini
And honestly, I'm mostly with him on that. I miss the early days of FriendFeed when it was 80% tech and 20% LOLcats. Now it's 80% drama and 20% LOLcats.
- Akiva
The only thing I dislike about Facebook's changes is that they made Friends and Pages public information. When they did that, I had to go and remove about 30% of my Friends and almost all of my Pages. It was quite annoying and I found that I used Facebook much less afterwards, since it was no longer a safe place to communicate with people. But if that's what Zuck wants, so be it. I'll just not use it as much.
- Otto
Akiva: And 72% statistics that are made up on the spot (18.15573% of which are unnecessarily precise).
- Stephen Mack
from iPhone
LOLs @Stephen. In this debate, statistics mean very little.
- Roberto Bonini
At the moment, I really only use FB to a) share web links and things with friends, b) promote my own stuff via Pages and subscribers, and c) party/event tracking. I've blocked all the crappy game things long ago, so those don't bother me so much. Realistically, Facebook is only really useful to me as a venue for people to follow my own feeds (via the Like Pages mechanism). I have 400 odd followers that way. Facebook has become a feed-reader.
- Otto
Akiva, if you're seeing too much drama, you're too hesitant to click Hide.
- Bruce Lewis
Some REAL good points being made here!
- Jim Connolly
Bruce, to know which threads need hiding, I have to see them first.
- Akiva
There aren't enough drama posts to make anyone's feed 80% drama by virtue of seeing them once. The only way to have an 80% drama experience here is to let them keep popping back up.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
Oh. You took my percentages seriously. Probably not a good idea.
- Akiva
Joking is fine. I just want to make sure people reading this thread understand that you can get whatever flavor of conversation you want out of FriendFeed, percentage-wise. Absolute quantities are limited, but that can be a good thing.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
Bruce, you're being Apple to Akiva's DeGeneres. :)
- Micah
Micah, that's cool! Tomorrow Akiva is going to get on his show, apologize, and talk at length about what a fan he is of me and things I make.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
Then you both win.
- Micah
Can I high-five Akiva now, or do I have to act mad until after the apology?
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
Robert, I haven't had to mute a thread in a long time - maybe you're right ;-)
- Jesse Stay
I have no clue what you people are talking about any longer.
- Akiva
me neither Akiva - i just came to post that "i saved a ton of money by switch my car insurance to Geico" ;) (not really, they stink)
- Jeff (Team マクダジ )
Akiva, Micah was saying that I took your joke too seriously the way Apple took a DeGeneres joke too seriously. It was a nice way to ask me to lighten up. I complied by jokingly taking his analogy too far. Of course, explaining all this makes the joke 80% less effective.
- Bruce Lewis
from fftogo
Ah. But it makes me 20% less clueless now.
- Akiva
Pay attention. We are talking about BBQ. OMGWTFBBQ.
- Laura Norvig
You took his what seriously on the *internet*?
- Christopher Galtenberg
For all of you self righteous privacy advocates out there, nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use Facebook! In case you all are not aware, you can choose what info to include in your profile, nobody is forcing you to enter your phone #, etc... You can even use a fake name if you'd like. You can choose what people can see what info, the tools are there to setup your account pretty much any way they want to
- Brian
from FFHound!
"self righteous privacy advocates" - you couldn't be more illuminating, Brian
- Christopher Galtenberg
disrepute and shifty ethics: the FF/FB model of selling out & "professionalism"; this can surely be just more lip service "From Facebook, answering privacy concerns with new settings" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...
- sofarsoShaw BAZINGA!
I avoid Google products (other than search and maps) because their utilitarian styling depresses my motivation to make beautiful things.
imabonehead, David Recordon, Mark Trapp and 2 other people liked this
As expected, I have the opposite reaction. Google design inspires me to make useful things.
- Kevin Fox
I like useful *and* beautiful :-)
- Jesse Stay
Actually, I think Google has left the hard-utilitarian edge, and hence have taken several steps back in terms of beauty.
- Christopher Galtenberg
Pardon, but I notice you have a plain white FriendFeed background, Joe. :)
- Christopher Galtenberg
Hah! Good one Christopher.
- Skyler Call
If you're at Web 2.0 tomorrow: A Conversation with Paul Buchheit: Web 2.0 Expo San Francisco 2010 - http://www.web2expo.com/webexsf...
Jimminy, CoG of FF, Oguz Serdar, @zaps and 17 other people liked this
"4:10pm Tuesday, 05/04/2010 Keynote Location: Keynote Room - 3rd Level Paul Buchheit of Facebook in conversation with Web 2.0 Expo SF program chair, Sarah Milstein."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
Wish I was - would love to meet with you Paul.
- Jim Connolly
You can never go wrong by having a conversation with Paul Buchheit ;)
- Clare Dibble
When Facebook bought friendfeed, Paul was professional enough to come on here and answer our questions about it. Massive amount of respect for the guy. Still a real shame they've stopped developing here though.
- Jim Connolly
You're not too bad to talk to as well, Clare. ;)
- April Buchheit
Oops! Thanks, Blu T. Clare knows what I mean.
- April Buchheit
Psyched for f8 next week - http://developers.facebook.com/news...
Chatsohbet, Bor Test, David Recordon and 5 other people liked this
Me too! Can't wait to see you guys there. I'll be wearing my FriendFeed shirt.
- Jesse Stay
Good job on the graph API. Nice.
- Todd Hoff
Congrats! You rocked f8 today - excellent improvements for sure - WOW - game changing stuff! :)
- Susan Beebe
Google Buzz Losing The Sharing Race To A Dead Man http://techcrunch.com/2010...
Denise Howell, Kol Tregaskes, David Recordon and 14 other people liked this
YEAH FF! If we are now that movie, we rock even harder than I thought.
- Lo the Baker
We have transferred FriendFeed to Facebook's data centers, which has fixed many of the ongoing performance problems we have had with the site and will provide us more room to grow.
ΙΞhsan, Sergiu Tofan, Auntie Buttinsky Botts and 184 other people liked this
We still have a handful of ongoing issues with services like IM, but most everything else should be online. We will update you all here when everything has been transferred.
- Bret Taylor
Thanks to Paul for putting in a lot of hours to make this happen this last week.
- Bret Taylor
THANK YOU
- Josh Haley
Friendfeed rocks :)
- Ali Sözkesen
Thanks so much to all of you for all your work!
- Ruchira S. Datta
I agree. FriendFeed seriously fills a community need that Twitter lacks. Great to hear!
- Dave Friedel
awasome
- giolekva
FF has been assimilated, LOL. Thanks for the update, Bret
- LANjackal
In Bookmarklet we trust
- Majento
:))
- Chris Loft
I can not enter my profile are Bret day :(
- aynebilim
Thanks for the update, Bret, and Paul for getting in the trenches to make this happen.
- Micah
Thanks for updating us.
- Beau Liening
Thank you!
- Anne Bouey
Hopefully
- Özkan Altuner
Sweet!
- Bo Stern
Nice!
- Ceren Şekerci
Finally!
- Rey
i hope you'll put back online also IM: i'ts one of the most important feature!
- Alberto (AlBlog) Leoni
Thanks for the work y'all have done!
- LB so u no it's real
Yes, it's much more responsive! Thanks.
- Mark Layton
Resistance is futile.
- Nicolas Le Gland
This solidifies FF as pretty much permanent, doesn't it? So long as it stays active.
- Christopher Galtenberg
Thanks. It's much faster now
- Xitong Liu
Good news.
- Oguz Serdar
Finally search is fixed! Thanks.
- Burcu Dogan
So why is it still slow? :-(
- Kol Tregaskes
Works better for me today than it has the past few days.
- John (bird whisperer)
It's as bad now as it was last night when I gave up on it. Is there something else wrong? Something at my end? Or are others still experiencing poor performance?
- Kol Tregaskes
it's blazing for me.
- Joe The Sausage
Looks like a few others are finding it slow again: http://ff.im/hYXxl
- Kol Tregaskes
Shortly after my last comment I started having some problems again, both with the bookmarklet and long waits for comments to post.
- John (bird whisperer)
Seems like the problems are actually worse and things slower after the transfer -- so I don't think any performance problems were "fixed".
- Brian Sullivan
Thank you very much! I had been wondering about friendfeed-reservation-02-07-snc1.facebook.com (69.63.180.52) resulting from ping. It seems that SSL https connections are not working -- switching over to plain http for now helps. Is there a plan to somehow integrate FF services with FB? (FaceBuzz ;-)
- Adriano
Is https still broken for you? It was broken yesterday, but was fixed last night at approximately 9:30 pm PDT.
- Tudor Bosman
https was working for me as was the bookmarklet (which seems dependent) - but is now broken again. Just started working again.
- Brian Sullivan
FriendFeed is very fast for me again. Fantastic work. Thanks!
- Meryn Stol
Bret, thanks for the update!
- Auntie Buttinsky Botts
just, please, don't let this thing die. just don't.
- LaurazetaTL
ummm...things seem to be broken again. I'm seeing comments disappear and I've got people showing up in my feed that I'm not subscribed too and aren't Friend of a Friend (which I've got turned off)
- Sir Shuping is just sir
Yeah just noticed a thread of mine where the comments vanished... after several refreshes they are back but it was still confusing!
- Lindsay
Disappearing comments for me, also.
- Mark J
cevdet ne yaptın..ingilizce yaz..thanks bret.
- aynebilim
i dont know how you will bring back the disappeared comments. i hope you will find a way to do it. because, i really really think that, friendfeed is going a way back down. performance issues are alot we faced lately.
- Bahriye
The disappearing comments are sometimes reappearing, so they're not gone gone...I made another comment on a post that had lost its comments, and they all came back.
- Jandy
... also wondering if the database has changed from MySQL to something else like Cassandra at FB.
- Adriano
Brilliant work guys, thanks so much for putting in the effort!
- Glenn Slaven
thank you for keeping this site up and running
- chaz2b
I'd really love for IM to come back. :/
- Marcel Weiß
Could things like this also be posted to your friendfeed feed on twitter?
- Just Joe
I still will not open my account, when you resolve that?
- Profesyonel Öğrenci
aloooo kime diyorum.. help meeeeeeee
- Profesyonel Öğrenci
Best FF news in a long time
- Chris Nuttall
Any chance to fix the Photos problem? I get "could not upload" error each time i try to add a photo to my post, for nine hours now. :(
- Maxime
melaba bret
- fındık kıran
Zee. to Zee.'s feed, The Apple Room: TNW Apple, TheNextWeb Forum, RWW: The Future of Tech, building43
It's insane to me that there is nothing out there yet that not only replicates Friendfeed's features but improves on them...is Google Buzz the closest we've got? Friendfeed is *still* the best social sharing service I've seen.
David Recordon, Mark Layton, Andrew Terry and 10 other people liked this
Google Buzz holds the most promise. It isn't insane that nobody's replicated the FF experience. This stuff is hard to implement. Plus people want to find their own way and not faithfully imitate.
- Bruce Lewis
Zee, you totally need to import your Twitter here - you have some great posts there I would have loved to comment on :-)
- Jesse Stay
thanks Jesse, might just do that
- Zee.
Ya know - I still think some of the best social networks I've been on were some of the text only telnet BBS's back before the WWW.
- iTad
Google's Real Power—Angel Investors: Paul Buchheit, 33 - http://images.businessweek.com/ss...
Thierry R. Andriamirado, Greenkiss #GRNKSS, david beckwith and 74 other people liked this
"He admits that he chooses businesses mainly based on intuition, but he insists on a smart leadership team that focuses on execution. A smart team can have a bad idea, he says, but they’ll evolve. And people who know how to execute "can crank through enough bad ideas until they run into a good one.""
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
less is more,少能称多！
- 阿石
That's a cool philosophy - someone who has a history of creating lots of awful projects would be a good investment candidate! Impressively counter-intuitive.
- Brian Hendrickson
@brianjesse depends on whether they're smart or not
- Count Caturday
@nozzlmedia thought it had a good revenue model until we joined the Portland-based startup boot camp http://portlandten.com -- in a matter of weeks we knew where our problems were, we quickly found a much more solid foundation from there.
- Brian Hendrickson
:D SOURIRE ~ HUGE SMILE, there''s your driver's photo!
- sofarsoShaw BAZINGA!
@Paul - Brilliant quote !
- joergkurtwegner
This is exactly what Paul Graham says in every essay ever. Dating back to Reddit ca. 2005 YCombinator insists on solid founder teams rather than earth-shattering product ideas.
- Daniel J. Pritchett
Is execution really a good way to run a business? Sounds brutal. I thought Paul was kinder and gentler than sending people to the gallows for missing a deadline :-)
- Todd Hoff
Todd: I think he means executing programs, not executing people.
- Gabe
I don't know Gabe, you sure?
- Todd Hoff
Todd: He could have been talking about executing contracts, but I doubt it.
- Gabe
Totally agree Paul. I strongly believe that all fields should be funding the people not the project. If you find the person who group of people who are truly inspired, are not going to give up and have the imagination and ingenuity to find a way, those are the people who should be getting the support. Not a single idea, it too often takes many ideas to find the one that works.
- Rachel Lea Fox
I think I'm in love with Paul Buchheit (seriously) - love this! :-)
- Jesse Stay
Just don't tell my wife
- Jesse Stay
Rachel, some people think science funding should be like that. But then what's to keep it from turning into an insiders' network?
- Ruchira S. Datta
Excellent point, Ruchira! Science funding HAS mostly turned into a insiders network. They say they rate the projects and not the people, but who you are and what lab you come from is often used as a proxy for the quality of your ideas. I think focusing on a solid founder team can run into similar problems depending on how you assess the quality of the team.
- Mr. Gunn
Hey this is COOL --- Congratulations Paul... neat!!!!! :D
- Susan Beebe
Holy Crap. Just got added to a Google News experimental UI that *kicks ass*.
David Recordon, Mitchell McKenna, Emmanuel Anumonwo and 24 other people liked this
I've got that one too. You can share directly to Facebook from it.
- Matt M (inactive)
I don't have the new ui, but I did get a captcha for some reason.
- Paul Buchheit
I got the captcha too (and no new UI)
- Dan Hsiao
I also got the captcha. I guess a lot of Facebook folks read Google News and tripped a threshold.
- Kevin Fox
I feel left out...
- Kenton
Wait a minute. Just wait one cotton-pickin' minute here. Kate Gosslin is now a judge on Dancing with the Stars?! OH, THE HUMANITY.
- Akiva
Edit: Well this is wierd, I don't have that interface for News, but I do for regular Google Queries. :/
- Jimminy, CoG of FF
Aargghhh! That just looks like Yahoo! News to me. :(
- Space Cowboy
Interesting!
- TrafficBug
nice! I want one of those as well :D
- DC Crowley
Buchheit’s lucky streak as an angel (and a founder) - http://deals.venturebeat.com/2010...
David Recordon, Adriano, Wulffy and 44 other people liked this
Not lucky - well deserved Paul
- Jesse Stay
I read that article last week, definitely a good one. Being in the right place at the right time never hurts but I have to agree that luck had little to do with your success Paul.
- Nicholas Kreidberg
They say it's better to be lucky than smart :)
- Paul Buchheit
nice!
- .LAG liked that
I need to show SocialToo to you now :-)
- Jesse Stay
Paul, we attract back what we give out so you must be putting out some pretty nice energy pal. :)
- Myrna
was AppJet a good payout?
- Vezquex
Larry Niven had an interesting treatment of luck in one of his novels, Ringworld, if I recall correctly. A planet with a population problem created a lottery such that the winner was allowed to have a third child. This made luck a survival trait, so intelligent beings wanting to staff an important space mission sought out an nth-generation lottery winner, in order to bring luck to the mission. In the end, though, it turned out they hadn't thought through this luck concept fully.
- Bruce Lewis
There's a FriendFeed in my Gmail. Sweet! :)
DesT, Aaron Draczynski, JSLeFanu and 157 other people liked this
not mine.
- Vicarbott
my Gmail died a year ago.
- Joe The Sausage
they even stoled the "like" smiley :)
- Claudio Cicali
Full circle?
- Josh Haley
:/
- AJ Batac :)
Why not bring FF to the Facebook homepage? (public content plz) Without login, as the homepage.
- Jay
Congrats ans condolences in equal measure Paul :)
- Roberto Bonini
Why condolences Roberto?
- Paul Buchheit
Not mine yet.
- Morton Fox
Everyone is saying FF is dead. :) I sure hope not, but just in case :)
- Roberto Bonini
For Paul, I assume there is an incredible amount of self-satisfaction. Buzz has really brought the FriendFeed experience to a new audience, regardless of its name. Thanks for all your contributions, Paul.
- Louis Gray
I really like Buzz, very cool... glad to see Google release something that integrates a ton of their existing portfolio of products together! Buzz is truly a game changer... wow
- Susan Beebe
Flattered at least Paul?
- Christopher Galtenberg
+100 Louis!
- Susan Beebe
Buzz totally copied FriendFeed LOL :D
- Susan Beebe
We'll see :D
- Özkan Altuner
Friendfeed should live on.
- Ashish
+1 Louis
- Jay
Maybe we should all agree to just go use Buzz, let them shut down FriendFeed, and Paul, Bret, et al can concentrate on Facebook... ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
It must be bittersweet. Well put, Louis. Well put.
- Akiva
I've had a FriendFeed gadget in my Gmail left column for ages ;)
- Tinfoil 2.0
+1 Louis. Gmail, FriendFeed, Facebook.. Amazing job and ideas, Paul!
- Thierry R. Andriamirado
@Fatih, it's a joke
- Özkan Altuner
Three times and it's true.
- aldenoneil
I guess I care more about ideas than specific instantiations. Hopefully they'll make the ui more like FriendFeed though :)
- Paul Buchheit
Paul - I hope so too!
- Susan Beebe
I agree with Paul.
- Akiva
Agree Paul - current UX a tad clunky.
- Hutch Carpenter
I want a FriendFeed in *my* Gmail ;(
- Rah-PM 2012
Buzz even captures the Friendfeed comments and displays em in Gmail. whoa.
- chrisofspades
Facebook(Gmail(Friendfeed(YoDawg())))
- Micah
Rahsheen, be sure to reload Gmail -- it doesn't show up automatically (or at least it didn't for me).
- Paul Buchheit
Buzz is being rolled out slowly, over the next few days for the "non social media elite" (yes, sorry, it's true)
- Christopher Galtenberg
You gotta be kidding me. I was the FIRST person Robert followed on Cliqset. I'm a social media god!
- Akiva
chrisofspades, how are you getting Friendfeed into Buzz?
- Kenton
Not in mine, yet.
- DGentry
Kenton, it just showed up as one of the sites I could connect. maybe because I have my friendfeed connected to my Google profile?
- chrisofspades
Yeah, I just noticed that that is how it picks those sites. I've added FF to my profile and I'll see if it comes through.
- Kenton
Akiva - LOL :D
- Susan Beebe
I WANT a FF in my gmail. How do I get it?
- Claudia Petrilli
i can use it on phone, but not on PC. LAME
- Jeff (Team マクダジ )
I was watching the announcement with my brother and I kept saying "just like Friendfeed", "just like Friendfeed", "just like Friendfeed" ...
- Alejandro
STILL not showing up in mine!!! It does show up on my iPhone. I've been playing with it for the past hour, but really wish I could see in in a real web browser on a real computer!
- Jeff P. Henderson
Jeff same problem here. Very frustrating!
- BRҰANSAҰS
its like Pauls child FF reunion with its elder brother gmail :)
- sirishkumar
Very funny post, Paul!
- Michael Fidler
Not quite FriendFeed but close. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Paul, one thing that I am sure to miss on Buzz is, not being able to see all the awesome Googler's and Xoogler's feeds that I see here on Friendfeed. I wish there is someway Buzz remedies this. Really bummed about this. :(
- Space Cowboy
Paul, same feeling here, but now that I see buzz map in iPhone/web app, that's pretty cool stuff.
- Orlando Pozo
Paul, we need something like buzz map for friendfeed ;).
- Orlando Pozo
Paul, Gbuzz privacy settings really suck, even blocking and reporting people as spammers don't work :S
- Orlando Pozo
from iPhone
Paul, did you know Google was working on Buzz when you sold FriendFeed?
- Richard Cunningham
I love how friendfeed, with all of the love and effort that all of us have vested in it, gets to keep on reaching new places, even if it's not *exactly* FF. Nice one.
- Iain Baker
Experimental Facebook Feature Shows Better Friend Suggestions - http://www.readwriteweb.com/archive...
Zu from AOD, Orlando Pozo, TradersLog and 48 other people liked this
Did you guys work on this? It's great!
- Marshall Kirkpatrick
Congratulations!
- Ben Darnell
Yep, this is something Jim, Tudor, Sanjeev, and I worked on - really fun to see it go live. Ben Darnell actually did a lot of work on it before he left for Brizzly, too :)
- Bret Taylor
Congrats Bret and team!
- AJ Batac :)
Congrats, guys!
- Auntie Buttinsky Botts
Nice!
- Anne Bouey
This may explain some of the unexplained friend requests I've received lately. Although in at least one case, I didn't see any mutual connections at all, and I didn't know the person, so I passed on the connection (assumed it was spam or such).
- Ken Gidley
Very nice :)
- Mike Cassidy
Very nice to hear about what the FF team is working on and releasing on FB. Thanks for the update Bret.
- Mark Krynsky
Now if you could just do something about FB's scam ads. Yesterday one promised a free iPad if I would just test it. Had Jobs' picture on it. They had my age(from FB?) so they could target it. I clicked through for laughs. Asks for email and says no Apple affiliation. Also said "Participation Required" so either I get locked in to a $10/month scam or they sell data off a questionnaire and I probably never see an iPad. It's the Internet but FB ads really degrade the trust and FB needs trust.
- Ed Millard
Happy to know that FriendFeed's Team is working on Facebook's 'Friend Suggestions'. Lucky FB ;)
- Thierry R. Andriamirado
Cool - thanks for the better experience :)
- Susan Beebe
Does this mean it will also be available via the API? :-)
- Jesse Stay
Congrats! This sounds like it was probably a lot of fun to work on. I clustered my Facebook friends recently and was amused to see categories like mathematicians, computational biologists, people I know from Google, people I met through my sister--all falling out of just the graph information alone.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Nice feature. I have yet to add a new friend through this suggestion but can see it's potential for sure.
- TradersLog
Thank you Ben Darnell for becoming a Tornado committer and committing about 10 great bug fixes and feature patches tonight. (And, indirectly, thank you Brizzly for using Tornado and making it awesomer with your patches and support.)
Nicola Codipietro, Ted Roden, Lizunlong and 16 other people liked this
And thanks to Elias Torres, who wrote and/or collected many of the patches I comitted today.
- Ben Darnell
Ooh, what were the changes? Link?
- Jim Norris
I now have Comcast Business at my house: 50 Mbps down, 10 Mbps up. Speakeasy: love ya, been fun, but it's time to move on.
David Recordon, Amit Patel, Bret Taylor and Jesse Stay liked this
Isn't it nice? I have it too - I actually registered 100 Mbps to Smugmug's servers from here in Utah.
- Jesse Stay
I am looking forward to playing board games on the iPad while travelling with Karen. This is the first device I can really picture two people using at the same time, which seems like an opportunity for some truly new types of software.
Franklin Pettit, Sarath, Zu from AOD and 91 other people liked this
With mice and keyboard, two people at the same time on the same device doesn't really work well. Touch screen seems like a really cool opportunity.
- Bret Taylor
I always wanted something we could use for a board game on an airplane in particular.
- Bret Taylor
oh! 2 player touch screen air hockey!!
- Nathalie
I thought to myself I could have used this when I would play chess with my little brother, and he would get mad and sweep the pieces off the board. I figured it'd be pretty difficult to do that with an iPad. Then I realized what he could have done to the iPad...
- MiniMage, enterRUPPted
Yeah - I keep thinking of how popular this is going to be on road trips with the family
- Jesse Stay
Taking turns. Like handing a crossword puzzle or magazine back and forth. Plus a swipe for changing posting accounts.
- Hayes Haugen
Does this mean you're getting one?
- Shannon Jiménez
Shannon: yep, definitely getting one. If for no other reason than to write a couple apps for it.
- Bret Taylor
Bret, same thought here - I can think of some uses, but as a developer I want a new toy to play with and innovate with :-)
- Jesse Stay
Cool-- that means I get to play with it :)
- Shannon Jiménez
Is it just me or does that still seem a bit small for two people to have their hands on at once?
- Richard Lawler
You know. I totally missed this use case. I don't play board games enough, so this would be great for me.
- Roberto Bonini
I don't know who the makers are of touch-screen tablets that already do this, but I've seen one in action: http://ourdoings.com/brlewis...
- Bruce Lewis
Chess, checkers, go, Trivial Pursuit, Monopoly, chinese checkers... and I think it will also be a great platform for war games.
- Brome
So do i brome. BRING ON RISK
- Roberto Bonini
^LOL
- LANjackal
You're going to drive that accelerometer nuts with two people, you know that don't you? :)
- JCunwired
SMART idea - that's why I like you - out of the box - excellent eye for various use cases - neat! The iPad has a lot of potential. I have been wanting what I call an iCouch tablet for web viewing, this i really great. I can't wait till i get one!
- Susan Beebe
Nathalie, air hockey was my first thought when they said it worked with two people. That would be cool.
- Todd Hoff
Wow that's true- I didn't really get the iPad until I thought of 2-player games. Now to develop Catan for the iPad.
- anna sauce
Will be awesome for board games.
- Scott Cederberg
Todd and Nathalie, an air-hockey type game (maybe more like Pong) is what people are playing in the photo I linked to in my previous comment. I sympathize with whoever the manufacturer is, in that the perception is that it doesn't exist until Apple ships it.
- Bruce Lewis
Hey I want an I pad, but they said the 3g version isn't available till April, mmmm. How can I get one sooner???
- amelia arapoff
I have to admit it's a wee bit more portable than Microsoft's Big Ass Table™
- Richard Walker
Never thought of this possibility. For the first time I can begin to see myself possibly even buying one - assuming the software is there to make it worthwhile.
- Andrew Perry
Share option of friend-feed cost me a call from my wife yelling at me "who the hell is this Karen you are playing with on the train to work? I am gonna kill you both!" She simply saw it on my facebook feed never realized it is a FW. (http://friendfeed.com/tzury...) LOL
- Tzury Bar Yochay
not sure about this, the form factor may still be too small to be comfortable for two players simultaneously looking at it, or touching it. Now with blue tooth connexion between two iPads, I would see lots of opportunities for boardgames, including games where each player need to keep some information secret (his hand of cards usually).
- Antoine Bertier
Hmm nice idea. Checkers, Domino, Backgammon would be all excellent
- Özkan Altuner
I just downloaded SDK and am working with another programmer on the Catan version. Bret you inspired me!
- anna sauce
Yay for social devices!
- Адский Блондин
Anna, you know there's already a Catan for iPhone, right? http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009...
- Ken Gidley
So.. you wanna buy a improved GAMEBOY oh geez.
- Bahriye
but he will HAS a TOUCH SCREEN that 2 people can touch at the same time!
- İyi Aile Çocuğu
Thanks Jason- I'm very excited about it!
- anna sauce
Ken- yeah
- anna sauce
board game app ---> http://www.gametableapp.com
- Ryan C
Exactly. I am foreseeing to see FarmVille on that!
- Sarath
Tantek is now pushing updates from his own site. Self-hosted + personal URL shortener + Atom feed + PubSubHubbub = independent awesome! - http://www.onebigfluke.com/2010...
David Recordon, Jimminy, CoG of FF, DeWitt Clinton and 7 other people liked this
I forgot to mention he's also pushing hAtom microformat data too.
- Brett Slatkin
Chrome feed detection plugin didn't like rel="updates alternate".
- Matt M (inactive)
File a bug against the plug-in! Which link element was that tho?
- Brett Slatkin
He's got a link rel="updates alternate" in the header of the page pointing to the atom feed. Chrome's feed detector uses XPath like ...[@rel="alternate"]. I'll file that in the Chromium project and ping the author of the extension,
- Matt M (inactive)
Ah actually I think link[@rel] can't take multiple values like that. Lemme bug him.
- Brett Slatkin
I think HTML link rel is multivalued (at least HTML5): http://www.w3.org/TR...
- Matt M (inactive)
I do not know
- Brett Slatkin
I wonder what XHTML allows (and XPath?)
- Brett Slatkin
Regardless, this is pretty cool. I'm jealous of these personal microblogs. :)
- Matt M (inactive)
I think [@rel="alternate"] needs to change to [contains(concat(" ",@rel," "), " alternate ")] in the Chrome extension. My XPath-fu is getting rusty.
- Matt M (inactive)
Thanks Brett! Here are some URLs: http://www.w3.org/TR... "rel = link-types - This attribute describes the relationship from the current document to the anchor specified by the href attribute. The value of this attribute is a space-separated list of link types." ; examples of space separated rel values can be found at http://gmpg.org/xfn/ and yes the proper XPath to check for rel values requires that you put spaces around the attribute and the value you are checking for.
- Tantek
Fix for Chrome's feed parser should be in the next feed extension version.
- Matt M (inactive)
I like everything about this. A lot. One question, though -- Tantek, why'd you call them "tweets"? Just to be cheeky? An attempt to turn the term into a genericized trademark? Something else?
- DeWitt Clinton
"tweet" is already generic per http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki... and has been rejected for TM: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technol... http://news.cnet.com/8301-17... - in my IANAL opinion, the term "tweet" is well/widely understood to represent an act of microblogging, on Twitter, other services, and/or your own site. If anything I see use of the term as a nice nod of appreciation to Twitter for pioneering microblogging to popularity.
- Tantek
PRO TIP: If you find yourself writing the word "factory" in your code, your design might be too general and/or complicated.
Melanie Reed, Ruchira S. Datta, Jenna Bilotta and 23 other people liked this
I'm not saying it's always a bad thing (especially in Java, where you're often forced to use overengineered APIs), but that you should pause and think whether you can do things in a simpler way.
- Tudor Bosman
Not always avoidable, either. Assuming you're talking Java, it's usually to compensate for constructors being bound to a concrete type, and/or as a pattern to create immutable instances. Call them Builders and they look less like over-engineering. : )
- DeWitt Clinton
Abstracting away the type you need to construct is already a step too far in most situations. If you need to choose between two types, there's nothing wrong with an if statement :) There are exceptions, of course -- deserialization is one.
- Tudor Bosman
Depends on who is supposed to be picking the concrete type, and if the caller should even know or care. For example, if I want to log something then it is probably better if I don't get to pick exactly how it is logged. I should just call something like getLogger() and the choice of the concrete representation should be delegated to the system as a whole. Fortunately, a good DI system (like Guice) can hide the Factory pattern rather well.
- DeWitt Clinton
I find DI / inversion of control to be even more annoying, as it's much harder to read through the code in an attempt to understand it; you need a higher level understanding of the architecture in order to navigate through, and you often don't have that luxury.
- Tudor Bosman
In an earlier life, I was a big advocate of the Avalon/Excalibur container-style of explicit DI/IoC programming. Those frameworks eventually took on a life of their own, got bloated, and imploded. Spring rose in parallel, and I probably would have gravitated to that, but then Bob created Guice and pretty much singlehandedly saved the universe. Well, Bob and Java 1.5 annotations.
- DeWitt Clinton
I would argue that, while DI may make it easier to keep track of tens of levels of indirection at once, it's better not to have them at all.
- Tudor Bosman
Sprinkling if statements around the code is like using C #ifdef, it makes rapid ports problematic. I've got code that runs, for example, on AppEngine, GWT, and Android, and using DI or Factories is invaluable for keeping this code portable. I've got 98% code reuse, and in a lot of cases, porting to a new platform simply requires writing a handful of classes and editing a Guice module file.
- Ray Cromwell
But why optimize for "porting to a new platform", which is rare compared to normal, day-to-day maintenance?
- Tudor Bosman
Depends on what kind of project you're working on. If you intend to build something that is easy to repurpose, it's different than building something that is a one-off application. For example, if you're building middleware for a game engine, you'd be crazy to not consider portability up front.
- Ray Cromwell
Again, in all of these architectural discussions, one must simply emphasize common sense and moderation. You want to be a Jeet Kune Do/MMA practitioner, and be flexible. Overemphasis on any kind of a priori rules is probably bad. You see this in 'over engineered' projects, but you also see it in underengineered ones too. While it's fun to bash on Java by picking on atrocious examples, there is polar opposite. Have you looked at the PHP code that forms the core of MediaWiki by any chance?
- Ray Cromwell
I haven't looked at MediaWiki, but trust me, I've looked at a lot of PHP code. It's not the language, it's the culture surrounding it; Java seems (for some reason or another) to have bred a culture of layers over layers over layers of indirection; PHP seems to have bred a culture of quick hacks. That's not to say you can't write overengineered code in PHP or ugly hacks in Java.
- Tudor Bosman
I like Python myself (both the language and the culture around it) -- keep things as simple as they can be, but no simpler. :)
- Tudor Bosman
And I definitely agree that pragmatism trumps paradigms. Keep in mind what you're trying to build, and get back on track if you find yourself writing something much more general than what you need. (Often, the abstractions that you conceive before you actually have a use case for generalizing your design will be wrong, and then you're spending a lot of time and headaches making your code fit an incorrect model, at least until you refactor).
- Tudor Bosman
+1 for not abstracting before you have plausible use-cases. I think that's one of the biggest failings of the "Java community", to the extent there really *is* such a monolithic beast. My biggest complaint about IoC "systems" (as opposed to simply using it as a pattern, where appropriate) is that they make your code more opaque to tools. I want to be able to make large-ish scale changes to my code in an automated fashion with ~100% probability of success.
- Joel Webber
I think this is one of the things that keeps me using typed languages for projects predicted to be large, because you can start off writing for the concrete, and extract abstract interfaces later through tool chains. Dynamic languages offer faster startup/turnaround, but aren't as easy to do 'after the fact' large scale refactoring. Of course, I'd prefer if people settled on a language...
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- Ray Cromwell
@Ray - if only Java had a formal macro syntax, you could do that.
- DeWitt Clinton
Where did factories come from? I assumed it was COM, which is a C-based interface and since C doesn't have constructors, they called their object creation functions class factories. Are they common in code other than Java?
- Gabe
@Gabe - It predates the GoF book, but that's where I first recall hearing it defined as the Abstract Factory pattern - http://www.amazon.com/Design-..., p87: "Provide an interface for creating families of related or dependent objects without specifying their concrete classes."
- DeWitt Clinton
This gripe has been circulating among the FriendFeed team for at least a year. Is there a particular Java library where overabstraction keeps biting you?
- Bruce Lewis
Bruce: I'm sure there's bias; not one thing in particular, just repeated instances where making changes to some external code is more difficult than it should be because everything is wrapped in way too many layers.
- Tudor Bosman
Is Lucene in that category? I think I'll eventually want to use it, but difficulties like that would push it further down the priority list.
- Bruce Lewis
I don't personally know about Lucene (the particular example that prompted me to write this was written in C++, not Java, for one); http://friendfeed.com/jim is the person to ask. As a general rule, it seems that projects move in the overabstraction / overgeneralization direction once they become owned by committees instead of small groups of developers.
- Tudor Bosman
(and while I don't want to point fingers at anyone, org.apache.* projects are generally a good example of this)
- Tudor Bosman
I suspect that designing / building by committee works more easily if the code has points of inflexion; it's hard to make a decision between two ways of doing something, so the committee's natural inclination is to not make a decision at all: abstract the mechanism away and let someone else make the choice.
- Tudor Bosman
"Lucene (SolrLucene) is now following your tweets on Twitter."
- Tudor Bosman
I was looking at some Java code recently, and after recursing through ~5 layers of methods with the word "Dispatch" in their names, I gave up in disgust.
- Ryan Anderson
Whenever I see a Java stack trace with over 100 lines I have to wonder how such a system can even work.
- Gabe
Agreed about org.apache.*, those libraries tend to be among the worse culprits. Their XML-RPC library (you know, the one that was supposed to be "simpler" than SOAP) has some truly offensive examples.
- Joel Webber
@Ryan: Yeah, there's also a tendency in some Java code to try and turn everything into some kind of event, when all you really want is to make a damned call.
- Joel Webber
@tudor, do you have an example of open-source project that is significantly complex and does not use DI or Factories? It's been my experience that system complexity and update difficulty usually correlate pretty well. DI and layers of abstraction help to de-couple smaller components in that large system, but in a sense, you can't really eliminate complexity, but just do your best to mitigate it's effects.
- no name
Bill: Sure :) The Linux kernel, any flavor of BSD, GIMP, Tornado...
- Tudor Bosman
Or you are moving crappy random construction stuff out of the way and off to its own land where it belongs.
- Hayes Haugen
I think that dependency injection and factories are primarily Java tools. Of course those tools may pop up in other languages under other names, but I've only seen them referenced in terms of Java.
- Gabe
Dependency is not language specific. It's part of the territory. Do we spread it all over the code? Or do we move it to someplace where it can be watched? I came to some of these patterns late in my career and if I stop myself from being dogmatic or reactionary to dogma I find there's a lot of good stuff there.
- Hayes Haugen
K-9 Mail 2.400 for Android - Massively Parallel Procrastination - http://blog.fsck.com/2010...
David Recordon liked this
We just released K-9 Mail 2.4 for Android: http://bit.ly/k9mail24 It's faster, prettier and more featureful.
- Jesse
Brizzly and Tornado Web Server « Thing Labs, Inc. - http://blog.thinglabs.com/2010...
David Recordon, Kol Tregaskes, Space Cowboy and 21 other people liked this
Awesome Ben! "Along the way, we have made a number of improvements to Tornado, many of which make it easier to migrate from one framework to Tornado or mix two frameworks in one app. These changes are now available in the Tornado git repository and will be available in the next release."
- Paul Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
Goodbye Aol. Hello Entrepreneurship In 2010! : SOMEWHAT FRANK - http://www.somewhatfrank.com/2010...
David Recordon liked this
Starting 2010 out with a bang!
- Frank Gruber
0x1fff: 35 Google open-source projects that you probably don't know - http://blog.0x1fff.com/2009...
Michael R. Bernstein and David Recordon liked this
Kevin: A good list of some of the lesser known (and some pretty well known - Chromium) open-source projects from Google. A few that caught my eye are Neatx (open-source NX server, a more robust desktop sharing solution than VNC) and the Tesserect OCR engine. You can OCR documents into Google Docs with a few hacks of the URL. Lots of very interesting tools here.
- Suw Charman-Anderson
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