David W

Yes, 3 lighters and they're all more expensive than buying a real lighter. Go figure. - Fox Tucker

... I might have said Lighter app on my iPhone...... Confirmed... Self FAILage - Johnny Worthington

Wow! That would be something else! For real! Mars Phoenix FTW!!! However, later in the article, they make the following statement: "Scientists are keen to point out however, that this secretive news will in no way indicate the existence of life (past or present) on Mars; Phoenix simply is not equipped make this discovery." Still AMAZING science! - Brian Daniel Eisenberg

would our president even know what they're talking about? And why would "the president" need to be "briefed" about this? Because if Martians have oil we'll need to bring them democracy first? - Adam Turetzky

If Phoenix has detected a carbon signature in the soil samples, it's huge. Provocative, indeed: we'd have to go and look for ourselves, most likely. But if we found life so close to Earth, and under such hostile conditions, it would speak strongly to life being more common than previously imagined. - Chris Baskind

Wow, this is MASSIVE. :) Very cool to see this story unfold. - sergiooo

I'd be afraid W might launch a massive attack against mars... - Friend Feed's Tad

Extremely awesome news though! :) - Friend Feed's Tad

OMG! - Andrew Baron

Maybe they found Atlantean technology... - Friend Feed's Tad

Turns out the ice they previously found was in a glass, with scotch. And there's a seriously pissed off martian who wants his/her/its drink back :D. Seriously, the "wet chemistry" sensors won't detect organic compounds or "life building blocks" like sugars or aminoacids, but there's lots of unexpected things up there, apparently. It seems that Mars is way more Earth-like than previously thought. Time to pick up "Pale Blue Dot" again, folks. - dario

This time around Bush will tell the public that he was given fals information ....... - JohnBfromMemphis via twhirl

Reading a newspaper article this morning - pictures suggested new sediment deposit since last imaging of the same area. Am I right in thinking that means liquid water has moved across part of the surface of Mars in the seven years between missions? That's pretty freaking amazing if you ask me. Dunno about life, but it seems almost inevitable we'll find some kind of organic compounds there sooner or later, even if it IS stuff we've deposited ourselves! - Slippy Lane

Bush will never believe there is life in Phoenix; he is a Texan, after all. He won't hear anything after that. - Ⓒⓗⓡⓘⓢ ᴷᴵᴹ ᴬ

So there is intelligent life in the Universe, then we could stop pretending we're it :) - Dani Radu

@dario: clap, clap, clap :) - dave mcclure

President Bush, the answer is 42 - Jesse Stay via twhirl

I'm guessing that the iPhone was under development for at least several years before 1.0 was released. FriendFeed is less than a year old -- I bet that it will be a lot better when it is two years old. - Paul Buchheit

But as you know well, Gmail have got quite many updates after that (but most of them could be counted as minor fixes probably). Just saying that product is good only if it's been maintained. ;) - Daniel Schildt

Does good mean, good enough to go live? I'm a little confused by how good is evaluated. Our hotels meta-search product (wego.com/hotels) has been around for about 2 years now, but we did a re-write a couple of months and it's much much better than before, but still don't know whether it compares to GMail's 2004 level of goodness, or Google's 1999 level of goodness. - arunthampi

Yes, of course good products must continue to improve. The Google of 1999 wasn't very good by today's standards either. It only searched about 70 million pages, for example (vs maybe 20 billion now). - Paul Buchheit

arunthampi, I'm thinking of products that will stand out and have significant impact on the world. - Paul Buchheit

FriendFeed have been under development for just little bit of time but considering that amount it has gone greatly forward. I wish it will develop to even more advanced (but still usable) tool for keeping persons updated without too much of information flow. I wish there would be more features for filtering of information that user could set and control from settings. - Daniel Schildt

2-3 years. Based on Moore's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... - Igor Poltavskiy

I started eventseer.net 9 years ago, but it wasn´t until recently it became good (after Thomas took over 3 years ago). - Amund Tveit

Habari has been in development for about 18 months. It's a "good product" now (though with pretty low market penetration :) but it will be a lot better in a year. - Michael C. Harris

I think the iPhone was under (serious) development for 3 years prior to its launch last June. - Jamie

@Paul, ah in terms of significant impact, maybe we don't measure up (as yet) but im guessing that will happen very soon :) - arunthampi

It depends on what you mean by "good product". Good for lead users? Good for a distinct social milieu? Good for the masses? Also I believe it is very hard to tell when a product has been finished. Gmail 2010 won't be the same as Gmail 2008. - Benedikt Koehler

"Good to use" is not universal since different people have different need and for some of them, tool can be always difficult to use. - Daniel Schildt

Software is generally asymptotic to good, (isn't it?) because as software gets better it attracts more users, each of whom has a slightly different definition of "good". But some more random examples: Windows 1 -> Windows 3 == 5 years; Unix 1969 -> 1985 (by which time it was clear it was dominating workstations except for DEC); Linux on the desktop 1991 -> 2007 (Ubuntu 7); Mozilla/Firefox 1998->2005. It's pretty clear that web software matures quicker than desktop. - Nick Lothian

if you write software you should consider your users as BORC, not those weak dumb individualistic humans. that way you write software that fulfills needs. the more streamlined your BORG can do it the better. leave the task to make pretty buttons to the designers. the last step would be to imagine a human again and make your software human/error-proof. - Chris Hofmann

It looks like the incandescent light bulb was around for 75 years before it was commercialize-able: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I... - Clare Dibble

Game development is about 2-3 years but not sure if there's much correlation of development time to quality. - Chris Bentzel

Human brain software takes 2–3 years before it is able to reasonably control its host human. - Amit Patel

how long does it take for a good product to go bad or rot? Why do some products still remain relevant after many years? - Shakeel Mahate

The first fax machine was sold in 1861. - seth

I heard Writely was built and sold (to Google) in 10 months - Stewart Rogers

Interesting question, but I can't answer it because I can't figure out how long anything has been in development other than by the community of people who are working on it, but then I can't correct for the bakedness of ideas when a community starts. And then I'm not sure which of the ideas in the bundle that is a product was really important to its success. Hmm. - Daniel Dulitz

Products are so different from each other, it doesn't always make sense to compare them. Products that are built on existing technology usually take less time than those built from scratch. The reality is usually a gradient between the two extremes. Consumer electronics often take longer than other products because of the difficulty developing, testing, and certification of hardware, as well as having physical alpha and beta testing of the software. - Chris White

@ seth Sadly, the first fax spam came in 8 minutes later from a travel agent offering a package to Hawaii. - Brian Norwood

The original version of WebTV was built within one year. I refuse to ever work that hard again. :) - Chris White

I think it's a question that can be answered historically, if you look at the time from when a group of people commit themselves to the realization of some idea, to the time when a similar group with a similar idea make an impact on the world. The answer for software *seems* to be 2-3 years, much of which is spent fumbling around in an unfamiliar space. For new drugs or new modes of transportation or new paradigms in visual art or whatever the time is different, and there's a lot of variance in any case. - ⓞnor

based on the startups i've seen over the years, 1 yr to prove the concept and 2 yrs to fully launch first "stable" iteration, then improvements from there on out to succeed (definition of success differs based on model/plan) - that'd be my swag of it... - mike "glemak" dunn

I like this topic Paul -- don't see it delved into all that much, at least in places that I tend to keep my eyes on - Eric Berlin

great topic.. longevity is key to successful product. if you are working on something new (not a copy of something else), you got to factor in some iteration time as well. It's interesting that many here are coming out at the same 2-3 year time frame - i agree also - Travis Parsons

I've been PM for an enterprise software suite for 8+ years now and it's taken that long for it to mature to the point where large corporate customers around the globe are deploying it for mission critical applications. We've gone through 4 major releases and countless minor/dot releases in that time. This is technology that originally was developed by a startup back in the 1996-2000 timeframe that was bought and sold via M&A activity 3 times in just over 8 years. - Brian Daniel Eisenberg

“software is lettuce, not gold” (Brian Behlendorf) so perhaps it's never good.. particularly if you are marketing guy facing ever-changing competition - Travis Parsons

I'd say 2-3 years easily, just to get real traction and work out the kinks before the product really starts to mature (if it's any good to start with). If you're out too early and it stinks and everyone bails on it, what's the point? (Case study: Friendster.) - Brandon Uttley

somewhere between 3 days and 3 years - Gabe Ragland

Varies. You can nail it first time (rare) or you can work toward it from a decent base. The latter generally happens in the 2-3 year range. If it takes longer nobody adopts it unless they have to (or if they can change it). - xero

it depends on the company ( big, small or a startup) usually when big/established companies trie to build a product in a market which already has competitors, they try to make it game-changing (a.l.a iphone), or differntiate it ( gmail ) and this means spending sometime on the product to get it right and better. Also, big companies have the advantage of scale means they will have a user base that's willing to try their product out... This could also be a disadvantage, as they would need to worry about all the issues beforehand. That's the reason Google worries about scalability, Microsoft spends months to years testing their operating systems... I guess its different with startups.. how long did it take to build a youtube or a flickr or even a friendfeed ? Months ? Most of the consumer software startups work on their product for a few months and then put it out and iterate over it. - Krishna Gade

Until it's ready. Sort of like toasting a piece of bread. - Ryan Massie

Viva PacMan! :) - directeur via NoiseRiver

My wife is very similar, loved Snood and Zuma, got very bored with wow. Heroes of Might and Magic is fun for two player. - sergiooo

How old is Maryam? My kids (7 & 9) are big fans of Club Penguin. - Mark Krynsky

my wife is a casual game fan - mmo's overwhelm and stress her out - mike "glemak" dunn

I got Zuma a couple years ago on your recommendation. My wife is now attending ZA (Zuma Anonymous) meetings. Thanks Robert! Heh. - Eric Thompson

I'm with Maryam, except with me with was my 13 year old and Halo. I'm sticking with Guitar Hero and Mario Cart, thank you very much. - Wendy

No one has any love for Pong? - Ontario Emperor

I'm with Maryam. I prefer Mario 1, 2 and 3 to Mario Galaxy. - Louis Gray

ميلاد داره به مريم واركرافت ياد مي‌ده :) - mhmazidi

She sure knows what she's talking about! Pacman is way much better :-) - Orli Yakuel

Still play Warcraft 3 years on now and again - Level 70 Mage... - David W

Amen! If I need to read a manual to play thegame, I won't play the game. - Bill Sodeman via fftogo

I have never played WoW. Am I missing out? - jason burton

jason was never heard from again. - Hao Chen

reminiscent to the time I tried to introduce my wife to a great game that is Football Manager - Fajar Jasmin

Did you know that Pac-Man was originally called "Puck Man" in Japan? It was renamed for US markets to avoid obvious abuse of the first letter... - Jemm

I sympathize with your wife. I'm horrible at most video and computer games. which is why I like the Wii. My 3 year old can play it. And so can I. - adam christensen

Hell, I think WoW is too complicated. And I do tech support. I felt the same way about Dungeons and Dragons. - Helen Sventitsky

Best intro to WoW: http://videoutopia.smartvideoc... - Chris White

Have Maryam try Guild Wars - much more amenable to non-first-person RPG players. Much. Plus not a matter of hours put in. :) - Lucretia Pruitt

اینجا هم یک مریم داریم وارکرافت بازی میکنه همیشه , مثلیکه همه مریم ها وارکرافت دوست دارند + تایید حرف دکتر مزیدی :دی - Mil∂d

منم پک من بازی می کنم اتفاقن ! چشه مگه ؟ - mahyaa

خداییش وارکرافت که خداس! :D - Maryam Ardakani

i Love WoW III - Morteza Delgir

الان خانم اسکوبل دست به کار میشن واسه ترجمه متون دوستان:)) - Zahra HB

@Lucretia: I definitively can't understand how can anyone like Guild Wars... I still have the idea that the only advantage (that appeals to many players - I know some) of Guild Wars is that you don't have to pay monthly... - ☂Marcos Marado

من اصن از بازیهای جنگ و خونریزی بدم میاد. نمی تونم درک کنم چه لذتی می تونه داشته باشه آخه ؟ اسمایلی بازیه پک من برای کبوتران دل نازک - mahyaa

Yes! I just don't get WOW - I'd much rather play Sims2 or Mass Effect - I like relaxing, not stressful "shoot that guy!" or "hack, hack, level up" <grin> - Cheryl Allin via NoiseRiver

Good for you Maryam! Just say no to WoW! - Live4Soccer

i dont like it WOW is so complicated and needs your a life time to finish it... - Milad.p

من هم یک گیک وارکرافت هستم / از 10 سالگی / :دی - myvahid

WOW is one of my 11 yr old daughter's favs - Susanne "Renee" Bullo

My younger brother and I use WoW to keep in touch. We've tried multiple times to teach our Mom how to play it. She finally threw up her hands and gave up. However, I do have her playing the Wii a bit. - Candace Holly

Robert, please don't let your son play MMOs. I wish my dad had never let me start. - Andy DeSoto

'Facebook is offering its own application at the iPhone App Store.' - Be interesting to see Facebook's statistics in three months time! - Joe Dawson (beta)

@joe yeah just downloaded it - MG Siegler

I installed the itunes update, but I don't see that in the store. It probably isn't there because I haven't registered an iphone yet. - Phil Glockner

J. Phil - Here is a direct link http://phobos.apple.com/WebObj... - Bwana

Just found another - Tuner. Internet Radio baby!! w0000000. $13 is a tad much though - Bwana

AIM? - Al Degutis via twhirl

Thought the same on the Tuner app. Pandora is there for free so I'm starting there. - Shellee

Heard from someone who downloaded AIM app it's only 0.5 MB (!) - Mona N.

they download pretty fast - Bwana

Thanks for Sharing Hutch. It's ok. We're all amongst friends here at the feed trough. - Brian Daniel Eisenberg

what he said - although I must add that I have always been "addicted" the learning from and interacting with great people. This is one vice i find it hard to apologize for - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

Addict, I confess. - Parth Awasthi

Addicted - Brian Sullivan

I like FF when the content doesn't deal with how awesome FF is over twitter. Today seems to be pretty bad with this pointless debate. Here's a concept you can use both! - Ralph Whitbeck

I'm not sure if it's a twitter replacement, but I think it's highly addictive and a great time waster. - Jeremy

Admission is the first step.. - Shey

perhaps a Friendfeed intervention is needed - johnpiercy

I became an addict last night - Nick O'Neill

I'm a FFaddict. - Vince DeGeorge

I am the Queen of FriendFeed -- hehehehe! - Susan Beebe

I love how you just get dragged into wide ranging conversations with a diverse group of people - David W

Yup, addicted. But not in need of help. Just a bigger screen or a second monitor. - Bob Kingsley

Considering a third here. - Michael W. May via twhirl

*Standing up* My name is Anthony Farrior and Yes,I'm addicted to FriendFeed....thank you - Anthony Farrior

I think they work great in tandem. I use FriendFeed the majority of the time, especially on topics that might create discussion. However, I still use twitter for my status updates. - Will Dearman

In the early days of FF rooms the discussions were compared with earlier BBs or usenet but now with feeds going into the rooms, FF is developing its own new genre. - Andy Roberts

Have you seen what passes for entertainment today? Watching "reality TV" makes me wish rats were eating my eyes! - Gabe

I watch "The Soup" with April. It's all the good parts of all the reality tv shows condensed into about 20min/week. It's pretty funny. - Paul Buchheit

Yeah, a week of TV is 20 minutes of entertainment surrounded by 167 hours and 40 minutes of "rats eating my eyes". I'm just glad my job isn't finding the needle in that haystack. - Gabe

Both novels erred in assuming mankind would self-destruct faster than it has. We're dragging out the last few chapters, creating sequels as we go. But we're getting there. - Jack Carlson

the part that Huxley missed out on in abnw is that we can evolve to still function, even in a world that would appear dystopian to our forebears. There will always be more than one person who can see the truth, and the ship can be righted. Of course, the pessimism of both novels, and the uniqueness of he protagonists, does a better job of moving copies. I think we are just in a time of transition, where the government cannot keep pace with social or technical change. - Nicholas Molnar

The gods don't scale. - Jack Carlson

side effect of asking lots of tough questions, you start to get some answers that make sense. - Nathan Eckenrode

As a fellow geek we better be sure we're right, because if we are wrong it's gonna be bad. - Blackopsmanners

Blackopsmanners: my idea of hell is being forced to sit next to Jesse Helms for eternity. Of course HIS idea of hell is probably sitting next to me. So, who is in hell? - Robert Scoble

Geeks are generally tech freaks and when you see item after item made by man changing the way your life is lived then it becomes pretty easy to accept that man invented god not the other way around. - Jeff Jones

Geeks are more educated and the more education a person has, the more likely they are to look at our world logically, and choose atheism. - Granteezy via fftogo

I think it has a lot to do with rarely humbling oneself enough to admit that they don't, "know it all" or "have all the answers". It's generally about humility, which geeks tend to have very little of. - Trevor Carpenter

I cannot disagree more Trevor. Atheists are the ones saying "we don't have all the answers". Deity based religions certainly claim to do so. - Jeff Jones

Trevor: Jeff is right. I used to be very religious. I found that most of the people who were religious were not humble at all and weren't able to look at the world without having any answers. Our minds are very strong pattern recognizers. It takes a lot of humility to turn off the pattern recognizer and just accept you don't have the answers. But, this is why I call myself an agnostic. I'm not certain there is not a God. Just like I'm not certain there is one, either. - Robert Scoble

To Jeff and Robert. I certainly can understand what you are saying. However, I separate out the religious from the genuine Christian. The majority of the "religious", including many who clam Christianity, are far from humble. They are generally far from God too. I would not say that those who are legitamately close to God claim to to know it all. In fact, they would say that God knows it all, and we can't know it all. My statement about geeks not being humble is more poking fun than anything else. - Trevor Carpenter

I'm a card-carrying member of a deity based religion as Jeff calls it. Christian is what I am and I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. In fact, I have very few. That's why I need/desire the deity. Right? Sadly, there is an unfortunate number of folks on both (many?) sides of this argument who give their own group a bad rap. I'm just trying to not be one of them. The way I see it, God is the one who created the patterns we're recognizing so I'll accept that He has the answers I need. - Lisa L. Seifert

Trevor: I was in a church of people all of whom considered themselves as "genuine Christian." Part of the problem is that religious people assume they really know what makes someone a "real believer." - Robert Scoble

Thank you, Lisa. - Trevor Carpenter

Lisa: the thing is, anyone who professes to "believe" has already put something in their pattern recognizer that simply isn't there. Or, have you really seen God? But I'm going to beg out of this. I learned in the 1990s that these conversations never convince anyone and just piss people off. So, "Hide" is earned, have fun. - Robert Scoble

Robert. Sure, I know what you're saying. No belief system is worth anything if it in fact doesn't claim to be the "right" way. Without taking this too far...I'm coming from a traditionally reformed, Bible believing worldview. All that to say, Lisa is right. Even those on my team have harmed your view of true Christianity. - Trevor Carpenter

just think of a computer software program that has a certain set of rules....if then statements, etc....then think of DNA and explain...then who set the rules? randomly appeared? - Pokai

You're welcome, Trevor. (For what?) Robert: I'm sad that you're hiding the conversation. Nobody's pissed off. (Yet??) And I'm certainly not reading that anyone is trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm simply seeing different opinions here. And I like that. As far as seeing God: not in the way I'm assuming you mean. But I see the God-Effect everywhere, not to be confused with the Scoble Effect. ;-) Ocean, Wind, my own body-muscles, bones, blood, organs, blah, blah, blah. Standard argument. :-) - Lisa L. Seifert

I'm with Scoble on this one, hide earned! - Granteezy

thanks lisa, I think we should whip Scoble into the posted 60 foot monster wave (by Mitchell Tsai) and see what happens to his belief system....then he can tell us what happened to George Carlin :) - Pokai

Because few deities are open source. - Craig Thomler

I am of the view that historically and currently that Established Religions are a cause of a lot of Evil in the world and that has always been a major switch off for me about any Church. - David W

pokai, i know you ended with a set of rhetorical questions but what i'm inferring from your tone is that you're drawing a tangent that can't be supported. no one necessarily had to set rules for DNA for them to assemble randomly based upon thermodynamic stability. and then for them to interact with other molecules... - Kambiz Kamrani

because they don't like the fact that there is something they cannot explain? or maybe because they don't like the fact that there is something that is (could be) controlling them? - Timo Zimmermann via twhirl

@ Robert, I think it's unfair to paint whole groups of people as one things or another: muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, et. al which is probably what bothers me most about these discussions. Not the facts of what's right or wrong, but rather the debate normally centers around painting a wide brush across an over-generalized groups of people. see "why are geeks often atheist?" I know a lot of smart people who believe a lot of different things ... - David Adewumi

I think the questions of humility/uncertainty vs. "we know whats best" views of religion can correspond well to the tech world...there are entrepreneurs looking for what has been the missing, the algebraic X, the unknown that hasnt been built yet or thought of (think of major advances like RSS or SNs a la twitter or friend feed...and then there was the aol way of thinking where they thought they could comprehend entirely the social aspects of the web in a closed platform...geek doesnt always = athiest - joshuabacker

One reason the I am turned off by religion is that each one tends to believe that their version is the only version. Some even to the point of professing to kill others that do not believe the way they do. There is very little tolerance of other points of view. Most Christian religions profess tolerance of others and I'm sure their are some groups that do practice this, but I find significant hypocrisy with most religious institutions between what they preach and how the really act. - Jeff P. Henderson

ok kambiz, interesting, but what makes the same genetic material become a frog, dog or human? - Pokai

@Pokai, Mutation. - Jeff P. Henderson

Lisa, I was simply thankful for your comments. They were spot on. - Trevor Carpenter

I really loved this part of the article:The absence of proof does not mean there is no proof at all; but it does give a strong reason to doubt if there is any. Geeks have conditioned themselves to think logically, just as the religious have been conditioned to replace logic with trust in what they are told. What can be extracted from this is that geeks are not atheists simply because they may know "more" but also because they choose to think differently (whether or not they think superiorly is a question for another debate). - Lisa L. Seifert

I agree david. I wonder why intelligence is their defense. - Pokai

pokai, Jeff nails it. but let me clarify one thing -- the same genetic material doesn't necessarily exist in a frog, dog, or human. a frog has a different genome (set of genes) from a dog and a human. these different genes arose through mutations during various biological processes like DNA replication, and gamete production. they are continually evolving by way of natural selection. the frog, dog, human, share a common vertebrate ancestor but they all have diverged from that point into separate species. - Kambiz Kamrani

Continued from previous post: I liked that part for the reminder to keep thinking. I don't ever want to be conditioned to think one thing only whether I'm wearing my Christian hat, my geek hat, my caretaker hat, etc. I don't think we can generalize either way. I agree with David - and with Jeff regarding hypocrisy. It's one reason I hesitate to enter into discussion of beliefs. I know I'm being lumped right now by some of you; but I'd rather try to state my own point of view than sit back and be lumped. - Lisa L. Seifert

I unhid this for a second just to see what direction it went in. I'm hiding again. Some things haven't changed in 10 years, I see. Sigh. See, I used to participate in every religious thread in Visual Basic Programmer's Journal's CompuServe forum (after moving them to that magazine's "OffRamp" which is where we moved stuff that went off topic). The conversations always degenerated just like this one has into calling the other side names. No one ever learns anything. So, Lisa, sorry. I'm getting older I guess - Robert Scoble

than you kamrani and jeff for your clarification, - Pokai

Bye, Robert... Does this mean you won't come to the parties I host at the Ritz once I move to HMB?? ;-) I'm sure I'll get the chance to discuss greater issues such as religion with you at some time when there will be no name-calling. :-) - Lisa L. Seifert

i think scoble just faked hiding, but he is still reading...funny how scoble made the first comment on this post... - Pokai

Oh, no. Do not doubt. Scoble is THE hider. :-) Eventually, he may look back, but he is the best of the hiders. I hide because he has inspired me to do so... Seriously. I always forget about it until he evangelizes it. Then I hide again. - Lisa L. Seifert

@Jeff "One reason the I am turned off by religion is that each one tends to believe that their version is the only version. Some even to the point of professing to kill others that do not believe the way they do." Now replace 'religion' with (culture, style of government, monetary system, nation, state, language, et. al) and you will see this is not an effective argument. See current war in Iraq/Afghanistan for an example. Is that really about religion? - David Adewumi

Up to this point, I can't find one person, on either side of the discussion calling anyone a name. Where are the name-callers? (excluding Lisa's, "Scoble is THE hider.") - Trevor Carpenter

This is a misconception - Alan Wilensky via twhirl

wow, I step away for a night, and look what I miss! - Andrew Badera

FWIW, I was born, christened, raised Roman Catholic. I was even an altar boy, but that was mostly due to the boredom I experienced, sitting in the pews. I don't claim to have all the answers -- I lean more towards labeling myself an agnost than atheist these days -- but I know, quite for certain, that organized religions don't have it any more right than I do. - Andrew Badera

Nobel physics Stephen Hawking: No need the God model - Igor Poltavskiy

Creators of religions (or any influential belief system) are interesting (perhaps as much for their pathologies as anything else). Followers of belief systems created by others are not interesting, at least in that aspect of their lives that is organized around a script that they didn't create. They are sleep walkers. - Sean McBride

First, not all deity-based religions claim to be the right and only way. In fact, Judaism is based on the idea that it is right for Jews and probably not right for anyone else. It's partially because of this sense of exclusivity that probably fuels Antisemitism. Also, when a lot of people say 'religion', they usually mean just Christianity because it's all they know. It's unfair to other religions to be so blindly grouped. - Akiva Moskovitz

I was raised in a Christian household and definitely see HUGE problems with Religion and the "Church" at large. In fact, I am so bothered, I stopped going to church as a result and am routinely offended by the all non-sense/crap espoused by religious groups and church organizations. I believe God exists. I have no unbelief in this regard as I have personally experienced some wonderful spiritual events (2 miracles in fact - 1 documented by dental x-rays). I see tons of fallacies with religion - very sad. - Susan Beebe

Akiva - ethnic nationalist ideologies -- particularly messianic ethnic nationalist ideologies -- are by definition exclusionary, polarizing and a trigger of violent conflict with ethnic outsiders. Universalist religions like Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are largely attempts to overcome the problems and limitations of ethnic nationalism. - Sean McBride

On my good days I'm an agnostic, my bad days an atheist. On the whole all religions try to describe the same thing, make sense of our world and how we should conduct ourselves. I remember being at my Grandmother's funeral (Catholic) and thinking that the words (return to Christ etc) were so comforting ... and it was then that I thought they were wrong. Those words are designed to be comforting and that was by human design IMO. Seek god in your own way and live accordingly - see Stranger in a Strange Land. - AJ Kohn

Where do you get those statistics that geeks are typically athiest? Faith takes courage and conviction. I am a Christian as are many of the riders I know. - Dave Ploch

Sean, last I checked, 'universalism' isn't achieved by oppression, forced conversions, or the outright murdering of people of differing beliefs. Furthermore, Buddhism shouldn't be grouped with Islam and Christianity because Buddhism isn't a proselytizing religion. In fact, I would say that Buddhism and Judaism are more universalist than Christianity and Islam for this very reason. They say, 'You do your thing and we'll do ours.' Not, 'You do our thing or we're coming after you.' - Akiva Moskovitz

Faith mentality: don't question me, don't challenge me, believe and do what I say. Hacker mentality: question everything, challenge everything. Guess which mindset produces the more interesting creative work. - Sean McBride

Akiva: Judaism (especially in its Zionist mode) is an ethnic nationalist ideology or cult organized around the interests of a particular ethnic group. Ethnic nationalism is the direct antithesis of universalism. Buddhism bears little meaningful resemblance to Judaism or religious Zionism. Christianity and Islam have committed many crimes over the ages, that is true. Aggressive fanaticism and intolerance seem to be central features of nearly all monotheistic/Abrahamic cults. - Sean McBride

I don't want to seem ignorant or prejudiced, but is Judaism not highly non-universalist? Laws against marrying non-Jews etc. - Alexander Carlill

Alexander, the best way I can put it is how a Rabbi once put it to me: 'It's better to be a righteous non-Jew than to be a non-righteous Jew.' In other words, Judaism prefers people to follow a different religion that is better suited to them rather than be forced to become Jewish. To me, that's more universal. Live and let live. - Akiva Moskovitz

Sean, and there it is. I'm ringing the bell. - Akiva Moskovitz

Alexander: Judaism is intensely ethnocentric at the core, but various currents in the Jewish tradition have tried to move in a more universalist direction -- Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, secular Jewish movements (how about Einstein?), etc. Notice how much of the Old Testament revolves around wars between "Israel" and other ethnic/nationalist groups ("the nations") -- it's the dominant motif of much of the Bible. - Sean McBride

Akiva: I see. I'm going to stick with atheism for the foreseeable future, but I think I'm relatively righteous... Thanks for the info. - Alexander Carlill