The following is my contribution to a collection prepared by the British Library and released today at the Wellcome Trust, called “Driving UK Research. Is copyright a help or a hindrance?” which is being released under a CC-BY-NC license. The British Library kindly allowed authors to retain copyright on their contributions so I am here releasing the text into the public domain via a CCZero waiver.
- Cameron Neylon
Yes, but if the quid pro quo was that Google couldn't actually keep the copy but had to point back to the publisher is that perhaps a politically acceptable half way house?
- Cameron Neylon
Managed to read the rest of the collection now as well. There is some good stuff in there from a wide range of people.
- Cameron Neylon
Good stuff. Recommended reading. (Cameron's piece I mean -- haven't had time to ready any others yet.)
- Bill Hooker
Really? I just installed it. It doesn't seem too bad.
- Rodfather
It's ok, but on my XP machine it literally will NOT load automatically at start up (even though it is set to). I have to press the 'start now' button every time. Must be an incompatibility with something but frankly I don't care to check it out. Back to Avast, mateys! Arrrr!
- Amy
I think the problem in the statement above is "on my XP machine"... :)
- Thomas
The trick to Vista was running it in 64-bit on a machine that could handle it. I never had any problems in the years I had Vista on my main machine...
- Thomas
I don't mind Vista but fucking hell it's bulky. And using W7 on work pc...I see nothing spectacular. The pc is like...4 years old, it needs an upgrade/replacement.
- Amy
Vista's not bad on a machine that's built for it, and in some respects it's better than XP. But I would never run it on an older machine, especially if it already had XP. I haven't been impressed with MS security programs, so I use Avast, even with Vista.
- John (bird whisperer)
I've not had any issue with it at all.
- Kol Tregaskes
"He seems genial, but John Willinsky is a dangerous man. As a leader in the development and spread of "open access" scholarly journals, which are published online and offered free, the Stanford University education professor is not just helping to transform academic publishing. He is also equipping scholars around the world with a tool to foment revolution"
- Mickey Schafer
The comments are quite interesting -- interesting points about information ethics, peer review, etc.
- Mickey Schafer
The author (Peter Schmidt) refers to a publication in January 2007 in Cancer Cell (which *isn't* an OA journal, but provides public access a year after publication) about dichloroacetate (http://dx.doi.org/10... ). For more about the dichloroacetate story, see, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Jim Till
As cool as that looks, I'm still not convinced that separating science into its own social networks makes any sense. Rather, I would love to see FriendFeed and others recognizing how their tools are used in the sciences and offering new features to encourage that use. To me, part of the power of using FriendFeed and other such tools for science is that they don't put up the kinds of walls that have traditionally existed due to journal subscription fees and whatnot.
- Chris Granade
True about the wall between the general public and scientists. On the other hand, FF seems to stagnate (maybe even decay?) since it was bought by Facebook...
- Björn Brembs
My own take is that hyper-specialized social networks for specific topic areas of science might work well, e.g. a QuantumInformationFeed or a BioInformaticsFeed, because there is a good chance of a person being interested in the majority of posts. Also, such hyper-specialized networks stand a good chance of offering specialized features that are useful, e.g. a good way of citing arXiv...
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- Matt Leifer
The only reason I tend to mind hyper-specialized social networks is that my social interactions are already very fragmented. As you point out though, Matt, one can use open APIs and open source tools in setting up new social networks. Doing so offers a lot of promise of defragmenting social interactions.
- Chris Granade
This is from the same guy that's behind researchgate. This really couldn't be a more blatant knock-off of friendfeed. Can we please have a fresh idea and innovation in this niche?
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
ditto Chris - most of the value of an open system like FF is that you get to connect up with people you wouldn't otherwise. For me a system with only chemists wouldn't have critical mass I think. I need contact with life scientists, librarians, computational people and others linked by social network and not discipline
- Jean-Claude Bradley
Absolutely agree JC. Although I'm collecting a long list of places to flee to if FB ever kills FF, in general inward-looking ghettos have no long term viability. Buzz is more likely to succeed than this (and no, I'm not a Buzz fan).
- AJCann
Actually, to me, I think 'science' would be broad enough. Anything not science I can get in the general social circles (and could avoid spamming my non-scientist friends with my science discussions!).
- Björn Brembs
Interesting point Bjorn - I think I would lose some interesting people on OA/copyright if I switched to "science only". People can block you on FF if you are really annoying them with your science talk
- Jean-Claude Bradley
Part of the reason friendfeed works for science has been the people that gathered here ( the UI is also great). I tried sharing the same science related content in facebook but i got a bunch of friends telling me to turn down the gecky stuff :). we need ways to share specific types of content to these different sets of people (friends family work). I currently have facebook for friends...
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- Pedro Beltrao
@Pedro, hypothetical situation: but what if FF (which sadly seems to have stopped developing) or FB implemented a better privacy/filtering system so that your non-science friends could ignore your science posts, and someone implemented an FF/FB app which implemented the data/citation features that @Matt brings up, why wouldn't that be sufficient? Granted its a stretch, but I think @Jean-Claude's point on that the baby you don't want to throw out with the bathwater is openness and a broader audience
- Benjamin Tseng
"This is from the same guy that's behind researchgate" -- that's enough reason for me not to sign up. I never liked the creepy, spammy feel of ResearchGate, and it's been a standard "Facebook for Scientists" failure since its inception. Also, like Jean-Claude, I follow a lot of librarians, copyright experts and similar allies and fellow travelers in the Open Foo arena, many (most?) of whom would not be interested in a science-specific site.
- Bill Hooker
@Benjamin .. this is what I am hoping for. That we might be able to better control who sees what in these networks. This should take away the need for specialize social websites. Facebook might even already have some of this in its new privacy settings.
- Pedro Beltrao
@Pedro, ah, my mistake, I had misinterpreted your comment to mean that you preferred a separate social network rather than implementing features on top of an existing one
- Benjamin Tseng
by the way .. I just signed up to Sciencefeed and it is really a straight up copy of FF. They could have at least tried to make it *look* different.
- Pedro Beltrao
This is the 3rd (or so) discussion on Sciencefeed I've 'liked", logging in late today. A good platform might be able to aggregate these discussions better? A bit of SIOC (http://sioc-project.org/) as I mentioned elsewhere? Are we starting to talk about what we want, what we really really want? (;-)
- Chris Rusbridge
I can't see from Ijad's response in @Martin's article how ScienceFeed differs in an major way from FriendFeed, (the two quoted examples don't sound earth-shattering) except, as @Chris and several others have noted, it's arbitrarily limited to Science. I tend to see FF as essentially a general-purpose feed aggregator and comment system. To my mind the reason it works for science is the...
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- Dan Hagon
BTW, you can control who sees what on Facebook already. Just organize your followers into lists and then you will have the option to share with specific lists when you post something.
- Matt Leifer
I just decided to take my own advice and create a list for my physics friends on Facebook. For the uninitiated, I have to say that it is a bit more of a pain than it could be, but it does work. You can create a list on the main "friends" page. Once you have done that you click on the padlock item below the status update box and choose "customize" from the menu. This allows you to...
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- Matt Leifer
@Neil I think it was a good matchup between a base of users (tech-savvy, Web 2.0-interested) wanting to have a specific type of conversation and a platform which was well-suited for those conversations; I think, however sad this is, it was also a case in that FriendFeed never took off in the same way that YouTube or Twitter or Facebook did -- hence preserving high signal to noise.
- Benjamin Tseng
Technically I cannot find any advantage in comparison to FF. And do I see it correctly that there is no HTTPS for the login?
- Konrad Förstner
@Neil FF was (is) a great platform & the people who I interact with are fantastically helpful, friendly, and obsessed with making science better. If FF dies, something else will do. And if everyone goes there, it will still be great. Like most things, it's the people that matter, and facebook purchasing FF can't destroy that. I don't think we need to pick another place until the official announcement has actually been made. Or until they officially ruin FF.
- Steve Koch
I wrote a long comment that I think my iPhone ate. the gist was, how can you predeclare the users of a social net? orkut was a general social net that ended up being for brazil? what's to say some particular nonscientist community won't adopt sciencefeed? and scifeed didn't on a quick use seem to offer the serendipitous discovery options that FF does.
- Richard Akerman
from BuddyFeed
Y'all do know about the "hide items like this" feature on FF, right? It was introduced with one of my science likes as an example. For whatever reason I haven't gotten complaints about posting science to my feed from my friends or other non-scientific followers on FF. Benjamin, there does exist noise on FF, ask Robert Scoble--he somehow manages to find it (or at least, what he considers noise, judging from his complaints). FF just gives you the tools to painlessly filter it out.
- Ruchira S. Datta
Also, about blatantly copying FF: ...who cares? I took an entrepreneurship course in grad school from David BenDaniel. One of his many pieces of advice was to copy something that works and do it somewhere else. When I think about it, isn't that the point of open science or open anything?
- Steve Koch
One of the reasons I think Neil, Deepak, and myself are so pro-friendfeed is that we were here very early on which meant that we got the benefits of building networks organically and also that the developers were seeing a similar kind of growth to what we saw. I think it is harder for people coming in cold now - which is an interesting problem to try and solve. Eva Amsen's criticisms...
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- Cameron Neylon
@Cameron you may be right. I find lots of scientists here (mainly chemist & bio?) but few others. Some of my digital library/data folk "appear" to be here, that is their tweets & delicious stuff etc turns up, but they don't really have a presence so there's no conversation.
- Chris Rusbridge
Just goes to show that the Friendfeed model has real value. I always thought it would be perfect for those inclined towards collaboration, e.g Scientists
- Mo Kargas
@Steve, because copying for the sake of copying without bringing something new or innovative to the table is not helpful. It's just a money grab.
- Brian Krueger - LabSpaces
Well, presumably they can bring something new to the table, as the founder said on another thread. I don't think it was for the sake of copying, it was for the sake of not reinventing a wheel that works. I have no idea if ScienceFeed will be helpful or survive. But I don't hate people for trying to make money.
- Steve Koch
I think Richard Akerman hit the nail on the head earlier. I don't think (well perhaps in hindsight) there are any predictable sets of rules for social network success. It's a mix of design, early adopters, crossing that threshold. I think Friendfeed had a lot of the technical aspects, good engineering, etc which attracted a kind of user (Neil, myself) that was able to get a community growing.
- Deepak Singh
Thinking through sciencefeed, I actually think a potential direction could be more of an internal information sharing service. I've always wanted access to a service inside my company where we can sort of capture all of our feeds of interest and information, etc. One could put more science specific features in it, and target it that way, but honestly, I don't see how you can make money from it. It either has to be a generalized system or one where friendfeed style info streams are a feature
- Deepak Singh
@Deepak: regarding making money, funding things like FF is one of the places I always thought micropayments could actually work (http://friendfeed.com/thieme...).
- Bill Hooker
Micropayments would work, but not sure how you would make a commercially sustainable standalone product. Part of a portfolio, sure
- Deepak Singh
Looks good to me, this sciencefeed. But I tink there are lots of science rooms here in friendfeed, like science online, science 2.0, etc. etc.
- TrafficBug
I think that could very well be coming, but in a slightly different form. That is, Gmail proper is a client for email, but Buzz is a client for social activity. Instead of having another tab for FriendFeed, Buzz would simply and seamlessly sync everything, including comments and attribution, with FriendFeed (and Facebook) via WebFinger/Salmon/ActivityStreams/etc.
- Mark Trapp
No, I mean other apps, not necessarily just FriendFeed variants.
- Paul Buchheit
If the ux is appending elements, then salmon would seem to be the way to do it, though then it needs a permalink to hang off.
- Kevin Marks
That could be a nice baby step toward Wave (or Wave-like functionality) within Gmail. Update threads from XMPP, SMS, APIs,...
- Tinfoil 2.0
Now you're talking! (I almost typed that in all caps.)
- Stephen Mack
Paul, ah, like maybe Farmville? :-P Edit: not Farmville. But totally multiple games of Scrabble. Or even document collaboration.
- Mark Trapp
I'd like comments sync'ed between the two but that's a pipedream.
- Kol Tregaskes
I think they should just add header tags and use SMTP standard to do it. If specific header tags are in place, then Gmail adapts.
- Jesse Stay
I agree though - I could use this in SocialToo's DM e-mails.
- Jesse Stay
No, Kevin I'm talking about the interface integration. I would like to have made FriendFeed do the things that Buzz is doing in Gmail, but of course that kind of integration isn't possible to outside developers.
- Paul Buchheit
It could then use salmon to sync comments from whatever service decides to adapt it
- Jesse Stay
Salmon has nothing to do with what I'm asking for.
- Paul Buchheit
Salmon drenched in butter and onions. Yum.
- τorƍue
I'd like to change friendfeed so that the comments aren't too grey to read on my Mac, so it supports microformats, and the faces are bigger, but I can't do that either (well, not without munging with your sample apps: http://friendlierfeed.appspot.com )
- Kevin Marks
I don't see how Salmon couldn't be used for this. Salmon ideally could be used to push comments into the e-mail, couldn't it? Or am I misunderstanding what Salmon does?
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, what if I want to change the message content entirely, not just be stuck within the limits of a comment-oriented ui?
- Paul Buchheit
Paul, good point - that does limit to just a comment-oriented structure. Maybe they could use the Facebook API code at http://developers.facebook.com/opensou... to implement Canvas pages for e-mail. ;-) An FBML tag could tell it where to put the message body.
- Jesse Stay
I'd love that functionality in Facebook, too, btw. I'd just take the ability to delete a message via API in Facebook though at a minimum.
- Jesse Stay
The basic idea is that the inbox structure is useful, and as Buzz has demonstrated, it's useful for more than just email, so why not open up the inbox to third-party apps. BTW, we actually prototyped something like this for FriendFeed (open the feed to other apps), but never completed it enough to ship. I think it still has a lot of potential though.
- Paul Buchheit
Paul, sounds like an opportunity for competition :-)
- Jesse Stay
You didn't have to bugger off to Facebook you could still be developing Friendfeed right now and competing with Buzz. Google clearly thinks you guys were on to something here and there is money left on the table.
- Mark
They must think there is lots of money to be made in a Friendfeed clone to put it dead center in the middle of their top service.
- Mark
Mark, buzz has a bit of a structural advantage over FriendFeed in that it can integrate with Gmail :)
- Paul Buchheit
Yeah hehe. The truth is though, right now, Buzz is not as good / polished as Friendfeed. But I imagine they have lots and lots of people (probably more than was on the Friendfeed team) working on things.
- Mark
I'll defer to Paul as the expert on this one :-)
- Jesse Stay
Let's call a spade a spade. You can't say this but I can. Google stole your idea! lol.
- Mark
Google steals all of Paul's ideas ;-)
- Jesse Stay
Didn't they pay for some of them Jesse? :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Kevin Marks said on Gillmor Gang today that he was testing Buzz before he left google and that was age ago so they were developing Buzz when Friendfeed was growing and peaking. Suprised they didn't just try and buy Friendfeed.
- Mark
And nobody is saying that FriendFeed could integrate in the same way on Facebook's messaging 2.0?
- Louis Gray
Whilst we were all coming to Friendfeed, they were salivating over the service.
- Mark
Everyone has their Facebooks set to Private though, or the most popular guys have the full 5000 limit so it wouldn't be as effective if they turned on Friendfeed for Facebook :(
- Mark
I read recently somewhere on one of the big blogs that the fact so many people have Private accounts is hurting Facebooks in search revenue potential.
- Mark
Obviously you can't do cool search things if 3/4 of the things people look for are coming from Private accounts and are blocked out of the search systemm
- Mark
Hmm, maybe Buzz is a glimpse of a future Facebook-like app platform in gmail? Google Friend Connect fits in there somewhere.
- Daniel Sims
Mark, everyone has their Gmails set to private as well
- Jesse Stay
Daniel, I think Google is recreating a social network from the ground up. I think they could have just done it starting with Orkut if they did it right. I'm usually wrong though.
- Jesse Stay
What happens if you edit via IMAP an email that is being read in gmail?
- Nick Lothian
from iPod
Sorta defeats the purpose of a "walled garden" if you open up the app to the competition #justsayin
- WarLord
Hey Paul, you guys should look into the Kynetx platform. With one platform you can create extensions across multiple browsers that re-organize the viewing experience. So, even without Google allowing you to alter it, you can allow users to alter it with just a simple install of a Facebook extension for their browser. You guys modify the experience, users get comments in their Gmail for FriendFeed/Facebook, and everyone's happy. No need to wait for Google for that.
- Jesse Stay
If you guys don't create it I will so let me know :-)
- Jesse Stay
David, I'd love to see you guys do a Kynetx app. It could be your first entry into the Information/Action card space. :-)
- Jesse Stay
BTW, I *love* some of the API stuff Yahoo is doing. Their APIs right now are really useful (and work with Facebook Connect)!
- Jesse Stay
This is definitely a good idea. In the near term you could get most of the same benefit by making a friendfeed igoogle gadget. I don't know how many people check their email through igoogle rather than gmail, but I'd be willing to be that it's significant.
- Ryan Moulton
They should probably build integration into their own properties first. Where's Buzz in Google maps? Where's the Buzz iGoogle gadget?
- Julian Bond
@David Recordon -- see http://blog.opensocial.org/2009.... Doesn't come close to covering every use case discussed here, but does, I think, do exactly what you're asking about.
- David Glazer
even the ff team don't care about their services, how do you want it from google? may be google knows the truth that ff team wont develope ff anymore. when will facebook shut down the ff service?
- Ibrahim Ozturkcan
from iPhone
So Google Buzz looks exactly like Friendfeed, except it's from the most recognizable company on the web, and integrated with one of the most popular email platforms in the world. Huh. Not sure how I feel right now - some combination of excitement for a new service and disappointment that it basically makes my fave site irrelevant.
Curious on the geolocation thing - can you turn it off? What if you don't want people to know where you are? They seem very gung-ho on the location technology with no thought about privacy concerns.
- Jandy
Wait, hang on, it's ALL within gmail? Is there gonna be, like, a buzz.google.com where you can see it separate from email? Because my email contacts and my social contacts are a totally separate group of people. #FAIL.
- Jandy
Jandy, that is what I was thinking. I do not want more e-mail clutter.
- Joe "Looptid" Pierce
Jandy: I sure hope Buzz has its own place -- that seems very important.
- Kurt Starnes
I'm stoked for Buzz. Gmail integration is the smartest thing they could have done. It essentially forces everyone to at least try it before they disable it.
- Nathan Chase
Nathan, I don't have a problem with the Gmail INTEGRATION. But I need to also be able to use it separately from Gmail. I can count on one hand the number of FriendFeeders I have in my Gmail address book. They're almost totally separate networks. And I like it that way.
- Jandy
If that's the case, I'll have to create a completely separate Google account for this. That's too much work. EDIT: lol, CW - sorta jinx.
- Jandy
Doesn't GMail use Google Contacts? In Contacts, you can define various friend lists that you can use for various services like GTalk, Reader, etc. Hopefully Buzz will use Contacts... it will have to eventually I'd think even if not initially.
- Tinfoil 2.0
Buzz does use Contacts. they've also implemented the "follow". it'll be interesting to see how they consolidate/separate Reader, Wave, and now Buzz contacts.
- chrisofspades
and they said Buzz uses your Contacts groups also, and you can direct "buzzes" at specific groups.
- chrisofspades
I couldn't tell, how does the life streaming work? Is there equivalent of discussions, etc? I don't see an inbox as enough organization.
- Todd Hoff
Can you import other things to it automatically (like all your activity on other sites)?
- Jandy
That's the question I have. In the demo, they only mentioned YouTube, Twitter, Flickr, and Google Reader
- Nathan Chase
I don't mind having networks intermingle. If anything, Buzz will allow me to do what I do here on FriendFeed with more people i know locally. As long as creating groups is a simple enough process...
- Nathan Chase
It looks like FF? I really want to see this now. :-)
- Kol Tregaskes
Nathan, I don't mind it from a privacy point of view, really - but I share things here I'd never email to people, or share on Facebook, because I know people here would like it and people on Facebook wouldn't care. Or vice versa. Or Twitter. They're all separate, though related, audiences and I share different stuff/volume with each. I could create friend groups in Google Contacts and...
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- Jandy
I'm not sure that posting a "buzz" to a contacts group is exclusively private. I think it could be public as well.
- Nathan Chase
Kol, it looks *exactly* like FF. likes and comments in real time.
- chrisofspades
Add me to your Google Contacts: nathan.chase@gmail.com
- Nathan Chase
I saw this on the RWW post a while ago. Pretty neat! ... I agree on having email as a separate social circle from other networks. I'm not sure I'd want to be bombarding my email contacts with a steady stream of the stuff I post here or on Twitter.
- John (bird whisperer)
But will it offer the same kind of serendipitous discovery we see on FriendFeed?
- Ken Morley
Jandy, I just had a look at the video. It's FriendFeed redux. If it's that deep a clone, we can all just pretend it was Google who bought FriendFeed ;)
- Ahsan Ali
Ain't got it yet. A little worried that it would marginalize FF because of its built-in user base. But I also know some people who would no way trust Google with that much personal info. I know a tech guy who quit out of Gmail for precisely that reason - he found it too creepy. FF's biggest disadvantage is having been bought by FB. FB seems to have been interested only in the...
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- Spidra Webster
BTW, even if you don't have buzz yet, you can view Buzz posts and Like them and even Comment on them!! Try it here: http://www.google.com/buzz...
- Ahsan Ali
“At a party given by a billionaire on Shelter Island, the late Kurt Vonnegut informs his pal, the author Joseph Heller, that their host, a hedge fund manager, had made more money in a single day than Heller had earned from his wildly popular novel, Catch-22, over its whole history. Heller responds, ‘Yes, but I have something he will never have: Enough.’ “
- DJ Stevie Steve
from Bookmarklet
To conclude, there is no such thing as financial freedom, at least not in the conventional sense of the term, which is the great deception. Paradoxically, the pursuit of financial freedom is closer to slavery than it is liberating. Furthermore, and in my humble opinion, freedom cannot be procured by financial means — freedom most likely lies at the point at which the utility for money...
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- DJ Stevie Steve
The whole post can be summarized by paraphrasing one of the comments: "Having enough is the definition of financial friedom"
- Maхx Tee
from iPhone
"Steven Colbert will win the 2016 election -- the left will think he's joking, the right will think he's serious, and both sides will think that they are tricking the other"
- Bret Taylor
Let me save this article somewhere in the cloud and we will se then :-)
- Florin Grozea
I like the part about people going to Mexico to get health care. Travel and health care will become one and you will get a one week on the beach with any procedure!
- Edwin Khodabakchian
I learned a lot -- especially the Palin/Gore win the 2014 presidential election one. That sounds like one we can bank on.
- Stephen Mack
On a more serious note, this is a great read, Paul, thanks. How many of these (such as Facebook or the war on drugs) represent your view of what you predict will happen versus what you would like to have happen?
- Stephen Mack
I think all of them will happen Stephen, though my timeline may be optimistic.
- Paul Buchheit
from iPhone
I'd like to believe that the increasingly rapid evolution of political movements will make it easier to resolve the health care issues, and possibly even the financial bubbles, especially if political movements ever become an educational force. Of course, the opposite pitchforks and torches scenarios also seem possible to me...
- Jason Wehmhoener
Listening to NPR the other day, some academics pointed out that our increasingly fragmented media is increasing tribalism and inhibiting collective action, not strengthening it. Many people are now able to isolate themselves from opinions or people they disagree with, by following only those exactly like this. They pointed out, in the era of 3 networks and 3 anchors, people by and large...
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- Ray Cromwell
I like Nr. 9 most, including the video about Thorium!
- George Moga
It seems like all the errors came from technology advancing slower than expected, including that google's competitors reacted slower than expected.
- Bruce Lewis
I didn't know that Microsoft Market Cap 270B - Google Market Cap 196B.
- Tim Tyler
2012? Would that be in December by any chance?
- Gabe
let me predict something for you...hyperinflation of the dollar. should have come earlier but clever politicians smuggled that into this new decade.
- Chris Hofmann
from Android
Yes: "I have argued that universities will move to a superstar market for teachers in which the very best teachers use on-line instruction and TAs to teach thousands of students at many different universities. "
- Michael Nielsen
I'm certainly not making a judgement about what appeals - I greatly prefer a small-group, high-interactivity approach, all other things being equal. But most big Universities have deliberately moved toward a model where lectures are delivered in a low-interaction way to a large audience. That's an approach where it makes a great deal of economic sense to try to scale to ever-larger audiences, which seems likely to result in a winner-takes-all kind of market.
- Michael Nielsen
Having talked to a lot of administrators in Australia about this, yes, I think it was deliberate, at least there. A huge chunk of funding comes simply from student-hours taught, and so they try to ramp up numbers as much as possible.
- Michael Nielsen
I don't see much evidence of this in the UK but then few UK universities have been effective at putting high quality course materials online or teaching into a wider market
- Cameron Neylon
Note that some of this is, shall we say, old news. When I attended UC Berkeley (1962-68), undergrad classes were generally either Very Large (200+, frequently 500+), taught by superstar teachers (including most of the Nobel laureates), or Very Small (<40, frequently 20-30), with lots of interaction, taught by combinations of junior faculty and grad TAs. In my fading memory, it worked great...within limits.
- Walt Crawford
Caveat: A few too many Very Large classes were taught by faculty who were only superstars in their own minds. But back then, we had Fybate Notes, so 90% of students in the dud courses just read the lectures rather than seeing them "live" (if reading from your own years-old lectures can be considered live).
- Walt Crawford
Cameron - How does funding in the UK work? Do Universities get paid per student? If so, I'd be very surprised if there wasn't upward pressure on class sizes, leading to massive low-touch classes where there's not a whole lot of difference between sitting in a lecture hall and watching on a screen.
- Michael Nielsen
Dorothea - something interesting about the leading SLACs is their (typically) enormous fees: essentially, you pay for what you get, a nice individualized, personal learning experience. It's a completely different economic model than the massive Universities cramming 500 or 1000 students into a hall, and probably one that's a lot more immune to the kind of thing described in the original post.
- Michael Nielsen
The model reminds a lot of the MAGIC group: http://maths.dept.shef.ac.uk/magic... "The MAGIC group runs a wide range of postgraduate-level lecture courses in mathematics, using Access Grid videoconferencing technology."
- Dan Hagon
I have been arguing for people to stop lecturing altogether: http://www.daniel-lemire.com/blog... Lectures in 2009 make no sense. They are a relic of the past. But as lectures disappear, I don't think the role of the "teacher" will also disappear, it will just transform. I hope we will go back to a form of apprenticeship.
- Daniel Lemire
Michael, funding is per student up to set maximums, beyond that no more money and there are hard limits annually on how many places are available to bid for. So there is pressure to be efficient and maximise numbers but it isn't open ended. Also very few general courses in UK, most are subject and stream specific so most have relatively small numbers. Maximum I ever taught was 120,...
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- Cameron Neylon
Cameron - thanks for that! It's very interesting, and suprises me. On your last point, the original post was talking about "superstar teachers", and it's clear from context that he meant teachers who are extremely good as teachers, not researchers. (His argument is a standard one in economics about winner-take-all markets like music, sport, etc: superstars with even a slight edge in the...
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- Michael Nielsen
Yes, but you need to create an impression that such people exist and deserve to be promoted first. Which means they need profile, for teaching, outside their own institution. I would guess this is most effectively kicked off by a few "famous" researchers doing some hard work on teaching and then that provides a known niche in which others can also excel. I couldn't name a single person...
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- Cameron Neylon
In the US, Richard Muller has become well known for his course "Physics for Future Presidents", largely off the back of scaling technologies (iTunes etc). When you have the means to scale lectures, it creates a winner-take-all situation, and you expect a market for superstars to emerge. E.g., the record player / gramaphone really helped create the current winner-take-all situation in music, turning it into a far more star-driven market.
- Michael Nielsen
My sense of what is happening at UF is rather like Cameron's last comment -- the so-called "superstar" teachers come from the ranks of researchers, not those who solely teach (per their contract -- the "lecturer" position). In fact, greater kudos are granted to researchers who can also teach than are given for teachers who also do research.
- Mickey Schafer
Michael, I rather like that notion of scalability...it's interesting and a different way for a teacher to consider "students" -- more in the sense of audience. In my recent conversations with non-academics, it seems that their use of the web is not this far-flung ambient surfing that many who hang out here are accustomed to. Instead, they have "go-to" places; and would prefer that major...
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- Mickey Schafer
The impression of a winner-takes-all situation may in fact be illusive. Clearly there will be popular expositors and the internet gives them a platform to reach a much wider audience than a single lecture theater. However the internet also allows individual learners to ability to consume material very specific to their personal learning interests - possibly far beyond a traditional...
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- Dan Hagon