From the Zeray Gazette: "James R. Rummel points out that in the Star Trek universe, there is no money: That always struck me as being exceedingly odd, particularly when I noticed that people were serving drinks in the space station saloons, and generally doing scut work. What motivated these people to get out of bed and work as servants every day, anyway? Where did the ambition to excel and become a starship captain come from? Why would anyone put on a red shirt and accompany the bridge crew as part of an away team?"
- Mark Trapp
from Bookmarklet
I always figured that banking systems had reached the point that everyone was embedded with a chip or something so that whenever they bought something, the vendor automatically recognized them and their financial arrangements and charged them without any sort of physical monetary transaction needing to take place.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
Jandy, to get all Trekkie nerd on you, it's established explicitly that there is no money in Star Trek: that, after World War III and the Eugenics Wars, it was done away with due to a new social understanding of the greater good. I forget if it's canon or not that it was around the same time the replicator was invented (thus eliminating scarcity).
- Mark Trapp
Thanks for the clarification! I've only seen some of TOS and DS9, so I guess I didn't know that. Interesting.
- Jandy, ConcertMaven of FF
Mark is right. There's no money in the Federation. Nothing to keep you from sucking down Sorian brandy all day: just turn the Replicator on high and head to the Holodeck every morning.
- Chris Baskind
From the post: "If members of a society can have any common object in unlimited quantities due to replicator technology, or experience anything ordinary in a holodeck, they will begin to crave the uncommon and extraordinary -- and will be willing to work to earn the money (or credits) necessary to purchase them."
- John E. Bredehoft
Before the world had a money economy it had barter. Before inter-tribal barter there was intra-tribal reciprocity (people divided up jobs and helped each other).
- Bill Romanos
After watching Star Trek for so many years, I think there's something to what you quoted, John, as well as a more socialistic economy: everyone does what they need to do because if nobody did, we'd all be screwed. So, in a way, it's an indirect barter system: I tend bar for you and you make my clothes. That, along with centralized planning, probably goes a long way towards handling any...
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- Mark Trapp
Heck, Star Trek is probably the most down-to-earth thought experiment into the end game of dialectical materialism. Proletariat Vulcans of the galaxy, unite!
- Mark Trapp
"an understanding of the social contract that's more or less repulsive now " Can someone explain me what's so repulsive about this? I'm trying to live this way (that is, helping others to the best of my ability), and not think about money. In fact, I don't earn any money now.
- Meryn Stol
*sniff* I miss the old days when the future was supposed to be so equal! Are you now, or have you ever been, a proletariat vulcan of the galaxy....?
- WorldofHiglet
Is it conceivable that there is a detail of the Star Trek universe that was not fully thought through by its all-knowing Creator?
- Tim Ostler
meryn: I don't think mark was saying he finds it repulsive, just that society quite often forsakes it for selfish intentions, hence society finds it repulsive. You often find it's argued against whenever the subject of those who posess riches either not getting as much or getting more of it taken away from them to fund safety nets and things like common healthcare.
- alphaxion
Zapp Brannigan: "What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?" I think that says it all.
- WorldofHiglet
Alphaxion: I see that I wasn't entirely clear in my question. I wondered why it's found repulsive by some. I've proposed a "moneyless" economy as a starting point for thinking about a solution to our current economic crisis , but this immediately received much resistance. I'm not "repulsed" by a money economy, but I'm not repulsed by the idea of a moneyless economy either. The question is what would work better. There are big downsides to using money.
- Meryn Stol
To my point, I give you this essay: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire... Those damn commies! "The primary goal of this document is to show that the writers and producers of Star Trek are promoting the values and ideals of communism. I should note that this has not always been the case; the TOS Federation was clearly a free market, and I can only imagine that some...
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- Mark Trapp
I've often wondered what would happen to our economy now if nearly free energy suddenly became available. The economy mostly boils down to labor+energy and if energy were free, what would happen?
- mikepk
It's interesting, Mike, that in the Star Trek universe, energy is the one thing that *isn't* in seemingly unlimited supply: many an episode used "we need more dilithium crystals to power the warp core" as a plot device, maximum warp is never sustained due to the amount of energy it consumers, and as pointed out earlier, one of the limiting factors of the replicator technology is energy consumption.
- Mark Trapp
Besides all the other reasons you guys pointed out, I always thought this was because they had found (or given by the Vulcans) ways to generate almost unlimited amounts of energy, which would make money unnecessary. It all comes down to energy, doesn't it?
- Alejandro
that's on a ship, Mark. I don't think it's the same on earth.
- Alejandro
I don't think the issue is the finite amount of energy we have on earth. Price of energy reflects the price of "producing" this energy, which is a combination of the labor costs and the capital costs. The capital costs (like oil rigs to get the oil out of the ground, refineries, offices for the oil companies, etc) also reflect labor costs. We never actually pay nature a dime. So what we're paying for is the "service" for getting the oil out of the ground.
- Meryn Stol
The main issue that for most people nowadays (at least I'm afraid this is the case) the "good life" consists of a continued vacation instead of contributing at least a few hours a day to the common good. We need to pay people because work is presumably something you'd rather not do.
- Meryn Stol
The starship is run in a militaristic fashion. I assume that if ensign red-shirt doesn't do as he is told by Picard, he gets thrown into the brig for insubordination. However, if that's what motivates people to do their jobs, it's a harsher world than I thought.
- Morton Fox
I'm crossing into dangerous territory about my Trekkiocity, but one other thing to throw into the mix is: replicators use goo packs, essentially a mixture of nanobots and organic materials, to create whatever you need. These goo packs are finite in nature (although the materials they create are recycled) and in some cases are rationed. So in a sense, they're like canteen privileges.
- Mark Trapp
Morton, I think that works for Starfleet, but it doesn't explain everything else. Unless you also posit that everyone has a specific function, and it'd be illegal not to perform that function; however, the United Federation of Planets is portrayed as a free society.
- Mark Trapp
Certainthe Ferengi are commerce minded. Hpowever, the Klingons and the Romulans ( to name a few) seem to be command oriented sovient style societies.
- Roberto Bonini
Most of the characters we saw on TNG had interesting, intrinsically rewarding work. @Meryn, I'd say that many, if not most, people like to have some form of activity in the long run, even if only to organize their lives. For example, in the real world, the majority of retired people I know fill their lives with volunteer work and/or the pursuit of hobbies. The tricky part is finding enough people to do the tedious stuff.
- Rebecca
"The tricky part is finding enough people to do the tedious stuff." Yup, that's the hardest part. I do think we can do lots more on "work design", work more on automation and mechanization (thinking about these things is a lot nicer than doing the tedious work itself) and also I think that a lot of tedious stuff simply wouldn't have to be done. Lots of consumption is fueled by advertising.
- Meryn Stol
Also, working as a craftsman is a lot more satisfying than being an anonymous drone in a factory. Economies could work on a much smaller scale.
- Meryn Stol
To quote Office Space, "Peter Gibbons: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you'd do if you had a million dollars and you didn't have to work. And invariably what you'd say was supposed to be your career. So, if you wanted to fix old cars then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic. / Samir: So what did you say? / Peter Gibbons: I never had an answer. I guess that's...
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- Mark Trapp
I do believe we'll always be left with some "chores" to do. We could either try to distribute them fairly (everyone a few hours of chores each week) or we could explicitly assign status for people doing the "grunt work". Personally I think that current pay-scales need need to be virtually reserved. Doing only knowledge work is a luxury compared to hard manual labor.
- Meryn Stol
there is always a scarcity of services, and knowledge
- Mike Chelen
that and the oldest currency is that of the swapping of goods. You live in an area where you can't grow a specific plant, you trade items for it with those who can grow it. This scales up to various goods people can create that others can't. It eventually becomes the scarcity of serfices, goods and knowledge mentioned above.
- alphaxion
Guess that post I wasn't going to write can wait a few more days. ;) ;)
- David Damore
Just like the Danger/Sidekick cloud data fiasco...
- Victor Panlilio
Blogger being down is like Google being wobbly.
- Bernie Goldbach
This Star Wars quote is just as fitting for blogger right now as it was for Alderaan. May the Force be with you Google/Louis/Blogger
- Dennis Bjørn Petersen
wtf.wtf.wtf.... who turned the switch off?
- Elle Ferrer
One of the criteria for entry is that it is available for sale prior to the end of 2009, so they must be very optimistic this will happen. Less than 3 months in 2009. Get your credit cards ready?
- Louis Gray
I thought there was a snag in the hardware and it got postponed a few months.
- Jimminy
A lot of devices are coming out this year. With this, we don't even know the cost, battery life, or what CPU it ends up with.
- Rodfather
Rod, I was not there when the editorial board met on their selection. But I believe they may have some information that we do not, and if they do not, they have good reason for their choice.
- Louis Gray
I bet it will be US only to start with though.
- Travis Koger
Or perhaps just looking for something that was rogue, since it was started from scratch like a kid in a garage.
- Rodfather
I'll grab one anyway. I love mobile tech.
- Rodfather
I hate that term, cloud. Larry Ellison said it best back in 2007ish. Something amongst the lines of: Oh so this means we just have to change all our (ad) copy. Hahaha!
- Mona Nomura
from iPhone
Storing data on someone else's servers - just because there are advances, it doesn't make it new and shiny. #hype
- Mona Nomura
from iPhone
yeah, but modern cloud computing is a whole lot more complex than that.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
from IM
storing data on someone elses server doesn't make it cloud.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
from IM
So the advances...I mean "modernization" is what makes it "cloud"? Ok, Rizzn. Thanks for the lesson. :)
- Mona Nomura
from iPhone
No, Mona. Cloud computing, in the context of IT, refers to scalable and virtualized resources not tied to a single server and generally sold as a service. It incorporates concepts of infrastructure, platform and software. Larry sells databases. He's only tangentially involved with the cloud.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
from IM
Oracle-Siebel...CRM? They also have a Social CRM platform which I think may be a little more than a database. But hey, what do I know. ;)
- Mona Nomura
from iPhone
Social CRM is social CRM. Offerings from Amazon, Rackspace, VMWare and Salesforce (to a certain extent in their more recent offerings) are "cloud" in the IT sense of the word. I only cover this topic every single day for my job Mona. but what do I know?
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
from IM
For that matter, and education as to exactly what it is you're talking about, read up on the differences and crossovers of SaaS, IaaS and PaaS. IT and infrastructure isn't web apps, unicorns and rainbows. There's a lot more to it, and it goes beyond any single software component. I've been writing about this particular brand of confusion around the term "cloud" since August of 2008...
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- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
from IM
LOL. Ok Rizzn, IT sense of the word incorporates the modernization and complex aspects. Thanks for the IT lesson!
- Mona Nomura
from iPhone
I didn't really mean to go off, but Larry Ellison is a joker, and someone in his position ought to know better. He enjoys creating confusion around the term "cloud," which he's uniquely positioned to do, being so closely identified with IT, yet using it to refer to it in a metaphorical "app" sense.
- Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
from IM
Rizzn dude, you and I go way back. It was a fun exchange from two very different stand-points. I respect your knowledge, expertise, and passion. C'mon now. I DO agree Ellison is a pure biz man, marketer, who likes $$ and power more than the technology --but in this case (cloud computing) I agree wiht his words :) Let me find the article for his exact words, I may have butchered his...
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- Mona Nomura
Why is everyone picking on Gartner?? WTF
- James Watters
is this egg yolk intensive? I've already got 12 egg whites in the fridge that must be converted to angel food cake post haste - I don't wanna bake two of those...
- Dane
one of my co-workers who is a twitter-addict has changed all the contact names in his email address book by adding leading "@" to names in it.. :)
- RICK CHOI
I'm beginning to think there's something wrong here.
- s t e v e
been watching for almost 9 hours and it still hasnt loaded make it stop somethings broken ctrl-alt-delete cmd-shift-w ctrl-y crtl-z
- ha3rvey (needs soup)
this is starting to really piss me off, wtf like how fuck'n big is this son of a bitch file? Fuck this ctrl+alt+del adios MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!
- sofarsoShawn
HEEHEEHEE!!!! I got my partner with it!! HEEHEEHEEEEE!!!
- Bec Rowe @d0tski
Are developers racing to get all of this established before Google Wave launches, or would they be developing it anyway? It's all changing so fast now, this Granny can't keep up with it all, (and I am still waiting for Facebook Lite to be available here in UK. I hate and detest those blasted applications!)
- Sandra Large
That's what open microblogger should be. Twitter should be an implementation of that, not the other way around. It should be decentralized OR they should get their act together OR they should be purchased by someone who will.
- Louis Gray
love the background Louis...the number of people that must have tried clicking on your dock...(including me). :)
- Zee.
TweetDeck is still working for me though
- Sarah Perez
503s have been driving me nuts, too. FF seems to have enough of a user base to keep us amused without getting bogged down/timing out/crashing.
- Jolie O'Dell
people are looting stores around the world in protest
- Allen Stern
I don't know about you guys, but I constantly have the phrase "We're having an earthqu-" typed into my Twitter box so I can be first to post it just by hitting return.
- Louis Gray
Jesse, I'm trying to pick on the framework underneath. But, I actually don't know if they're still messing with Rails.
- Jason Nunnelley
Twitter's problem is an issue of priority, if you consider their downtime a failure. I don't. I think it's working out just fine for them. The more they go down, the more people realize they're addicted and continue to use the service. They've almost proven downtime doesn't hurt growth.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, I think that's a mistake for them to have that attitude. I use Twitter less and less the more they go down, and the more of these shenanigans they keep pulling, both as a developer and user
- Jesse Stay
Jesse, not to be a jerk (and I know I'm a broken record), but I assure you they don't care.
- Jason Nunnelley
Jason, that's okay - I'm a broken record in trying to get them to care. :-) I do know they're listening though (I've been on a panel with Doug Williams and Ryan Sarver, and chat with Alex and others frequently via e-mail), and they'll apply the things that make the most sense to them, or at least that they're allowed to implement by management and their investors.
- Jesse Stay
My hope is my "complaints" are constructive though. I've included a lot of information and suggestions with those complaints, so they can take them as they please - it's not my business in the end, but I'll share the knowledge I have at least.
- Jesse Stay
Maybe I should use the Twitter page less and TweetDeck or Seesmic more...
- Dennis Jernberg
Dennis, it's an API vs. web interface toss up. There's no doubt their biggest problem is with the web interface, but I've had API fail also. So long as you just want to read tweets, the API seems to be the best route, meaning Seesmic/TweetDeck, etc. seem to work best.
- Jason Nunnelley
Thomas, I tend to agree with your review. It seems like a nice start but it needs some features adding in order to be truly good. At the moment I don't see a great deal of reason to use it in preference to the Mobile site. In fact some of the mobile site features such as nearby photos are missing from the app. I addition it seems buggy - it doesn't seem to update properly and shows my...
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- Phil Thomas
I think that they will work these sorts of bugs out over time. Probably the thing that I dislike the most is that a lot of my contact's photos seem to be missing from the experience. I'm not sure why some contacts are included in my case, but others are not. I also suspect, but can't confirm, that they are censoring out any content labeled restricted... even if on your flickr settings...
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- Thomas Hawk
Yeah I'm sure bugs will get sorted over time. It'll probably be a lot better in a version or two. Not sure I can be bothered reporting bugs to Yahoo though, I wouldn't mind putting them in the help forum for Flickr but the Yahoo page looks too much like hard work. Shame the devs won't look at the Flickr help forum. I hadn't noticed any missing pics but I haven't used it a lot yet... seems to kill my battery.
- Phil Thomas
I can't really comment since I can't even get signed onto it. I'm gonna give it another shot when I get home and can get on wifi.
- ChiliMac
It took me a long time to get it to work yesterday as well. The authentication page wouldn't load for about 4 hours and that was on a wifi connection. Finally got it to take at the end of the day.
- Thomas Hawk
It is a good start. Provided they continue to update it, it has potential. Facebook keeps improving their app so there is no reason Flickr shouldn't.
- CJPhoto
Thomas, check out darkslide for the photos near me feature. Nice app. They make a free and a paid version. http://bit.ly/sjJh9
- gfurry
This will be the first Apple event I. A while that I haven't tweeted about. The iPod events aren't usually chalk full of goodness to me. Although I'm stoked about iTunes 9.
- Mathew™ one of a kind
from iPhone
psh, twitter goes down on days where nothing is happening too :D
- Mike Chelen