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s t e v e

A Whole Lotta Nothing: In Defense of Twittering During Tragedy - http://a.wholelottanothing.org/2009...

December 19 from Bookmarklet - Comments disabled - Like - Share

Alex Scrivener, chaz2b, rowlikeagirl and 21 other people liked this

mathowie rules. - s t e v e from Bookmarklet

48 more comments

I like that post, very well worded - Sir Shuping

The controversy is that the tweet was time stamped before the 911 call, not that someone tweeted during a tragedy or used twitter to update online friends of the accident and asking for prayers. (Or at least that's the part that concerns me about this whole situation that's escalated WAY OUT OF CONTROL.) - Trish R

That's not how I read it here, Trish: http://www.inquisitr.com/52731... I read it that she was tweeting random crap, then her son fell in the pool, then the 911 call, then the "pray for us" tweet. My kids are in the other room right now and some horrible accident could be happening to them while I type stuff on FF. - s t e v e

I'm not sure I agree with what this tweet is saying. Let me read about the whole thing and then I'll get back to you guys... EDIT: OK, no, I don't totally agree with this tweet and a lot of this defense for the mother. Like Trish said, the timing is the problem here: "No one but Ross knows what happened between her tweet at 5:22 and the 911 call at 5:38." - Kamilah Gill

Wait, I made a small mistake... I guess she *did* tweet after calling. Still... - Kamilah Gill

By age four I was spending hours roaming the woods with my twin sister only sometimes with an aunt five years older. Hours between meals we were not seen. Child services would be called on my mother today for that, yet /every/ family in school I knew growing up raised their kids the same then. As for the tweet, in emergency situations, you act on with what you know and often people don't act at all. She spent 3 seconds to ask for prayer, something she could "do" while help was yet minutes away. - Michael W. May

+1000 Michael - Michelle Martinez

Yup, that's how I see it too, Michael. - s t e v e

All I can say is, if it were me, Twitter would not enter anywhere into the equation in a situation like this. But everyone is different. - Kamilah Gill

Yeah, I think that was Matt's point. Everyone is different, but for many people, Twitter is an important way to keep people informed. - s t e v e

The time stamp is not a "small mistake", IMO - it's key to the story. This poor woman is being raked through the coals for something lots of parents do every day - talk to people on the internet while their kids are off doing something else. I look at her reaction the same way I'd look at the reaction of someone who picked up the phone to call a loved one immediately following a family emergency - she was reaching out to inform and to gather support. - cecily

And I think Matt has a point here. I do think women are judged more harshly. - cecily

I think a father would be questioned just about as much in a situation like this, though of course I can't prove it. The "small mistake" was a comment I made in error and then deleted. Tweeting publicly is different from privately informing friends and family on the phone or by texting. - Kamilah Gill

All my closest friends are on friendfeed. If something terrible happened to me, and I had an open net connection and was sitting waiting to find out just how terrible it was, I would probably post here. If I believed in the power of prayer, I would *certainly* post here. - s t e v e

Oh women are definitely judged more harshly. Man leaves child in car, child dies, it's a terrible mistake. Meanwhile the women who do the same thing have served jail time for involuntary manslaughter and get slapped with child endangerment/negligence. - Admiral Anika

I'm also thinking that between the 5:22 post and the 5:38 pm 911 call, she probably tried CPR, or some other means to rouse her kid. Finding that her efforts weren't working, she decided to call the authorities. I just wish people would be more kind in situations like these, instead of looking to burn the monster at the stake, so to speak. Nobody knows how we'd react in a situation like... more... - cecily

My close friends are here on FF too, but I'm fairly circumspect when it comes to sharing very personal news, good or bad. I waited to announce my engagement until after I'd told my family. If anyone very close to me were to die, public FF & Twitter would be one of the last places that knew about it, and I'd be extremely careful about sharing the news. I wanted to post my wedding dress here, but my mom and fiance told me it would be bad form, so I didn't. - Kamilah Gill

Kamillah, that's why I like Matt's post. I'd hope it can make people who think like you understand better people who think like me. - s t e v e

+++cecily. - Admiral Anika

I don't find the tweet to be especially helpful. Posting about one's own cancer is obviously different from posting about one's child getting into an accident. I think gender is not so much the problem here. It's more about the fact that Twitter was used such a short time before and after the incident. On further reflection, I don't think that it's especially significant that she... more... - Kamilah Gill

Not the tweet, the post to Matt's blog. - s t e v e

I'm sorry, I thought you meant the tweet when you said post. I'll read it now and modify what I said if necessary. - Kamilah Gill

No problem. - s t e v e

I think this thread's just as fascinating as Matt's analysis (which I like, a lot). Because here's Kamilah, who's clearly a user of these services, who has the same mindset of them being "inappropriate" for certain uses... but *I* would have posted my wedding dress, and my engagement, if I'd been using Twitter and FF at that time. I recently Tweeted about my divorce so it'd spawn into... more... - Jenica

Okay, here's one important main piece of new information I took away after reading that post and the comments: "There was one person, however, who within minutes of the story breaking began a crusade to "verify" and later vilify the mom in the original story. Most if not all of this has been pushed to the forefront by her actions, which I feel to be heartless and cruel. She began with... more... - Kamilah Gill

not disagreeing that women are judged more harshly but there is obviously a difference between tweeting about your own cancer and the mom situation. Maybe if he had tweeted, "too lazy to put the pool cover on" and then an hour later "oh no son drowned in pool" it would be similar. - Andrizzle Gizzle

I think the similarity lies in the fact that both people used Twitter because they needed to contact a large group of people rapidly, or because they wanted to reach out to their circle of friends and family in an easy and fast way. It IS similar, if you look at it from that angle. - Jenica

Kamilah, I certainly didn't think you were on the side of the crusading blogger. I respect that you wouldn't use social media at a time like that, and I hope through this discussion, maybe you respect people would would choose to do so. - s t e v e

Jenica I don't think so, what would people have said if he had died? He was in the hospital getting treated. She was in the hospital while her son was treated, but the problem most people seem to have w her is not actually the request for prayer but that she posted so much before the accident, it's completely different. - Andrizzle Gizzle

Also in general if you are the cause of your own death, people will just say Darwin and move on. So if a man who twittered 80 times a day got in a car accident and died (bc of twitter), no one would care. But if he had his son in the car when it happened there would be outrage. - Andrizzle Gizzle

I do respect people's choices to use social media in general, I just think it's important to keep in mind how public some social media formats are. Twitter specifically is generally too public in my opinion, but that's just my opinion. I guess it would better all around in this case if she had been able to tailor who could and could not see her update. A Facebook update would have been better suited. She just happens to be a Twitter user... - Kamilah Gill

Sorry, Andrizzle, but I disagree. As I read it, it's two people reaching out, using the internet as a tool, during their daily life and during a time of personal crisis. The rest of the reaction about the mother is, in my opinion, judgemental bullshit. This kind of reaction is only justified if you believe that a parent should be watching their child 24 hours a day, 60 minutes of every... more... - Jenica

She's a pretty popular mommy blogger (I gather), and had more than 5,000 people following her tweets. I'm guessing the people who follow her on Twitter can also consider themselves part of her blog audience. So rather than writing a blog post, she probably sent out a quick message in the most direct way possible. - cecily

See, for me a Facebook update would do exactly jack shit in a similar situation. It would take hours or days for my friends to see it. - s t e v e

And also, what Jenica just said x1000. - cecily

Right, Steve -- I'd tweet it, because it'd spawn to enough places that way that everyone'd see it. Because we all use the internet differently, because it's a very versatile tool used by very different people. - Jenica

I also wonder to what degree the reaction is part of an "internet is bad" dogpile... what if she'd been watching another child, or doing the laundry when it happened? - cecily

Yes, thank you Jenica. I think people are scared when they hear this stuff and look for a way to say "I'd never do that!" Also the idea that Twitter in general is frivolous makes people feel even more superior about all this. - s t e v e

When I was in the hospital for knee surgery, I tweeted up until the last minute they moved me down the hall to the OR. I didn't expect anything to go wrong, but you never know. If I had died, I wonder if anyone would've chastised me. Hm.. - cecily

Just to toss something different out what would have happened if she tweeted she fucked up? Would we be discussing this? - Sir Shuping

and for the record no, i don't think she messed up. I get why she tweeted and I think the whole jumping on her for doing so is absolute bullshit - Sir Shuping

I'd still be sympathetic to her, Sir Shuping. She just lost a child. Maybe there is an appropriate time and place for pointing fingers, but I just don't know when that is. - cecily

I don't think that her own sense of culpability is relevant, personally -- tragedy happens. But I think that the world at large would still be doing this, possibly even worse, because they could gleefully say "She was wrong and she admits it!!!!", which lets the judgers judge, and gives those who are frightened by these events a way to say, "Ok, then, I won't do the wrong thing that she did, and my family will be safer." Not much different than now, I think. - Jenica

And it's not like she was sitting in a darkened room, oblivious, surrounded by empty cans of red bull and empty hot pocket sleeves, typing away while her kid was drowning. She was actually OUTSIDE! The whole family was outside cleaning the freakin' chicken coop! "According to Public Information Officer Lt. Bruce Barnett, the mother and older son had been cleaning out a chicken coop... more... - (dot)lizard kelly

Red Bull and Hot Pocket sleeves? Kelly, you promised you'd never tell anyone about my place! - cecily

A few years ago I passed out on my kitchen floor and split my head. The wound ended up needing 8 staples to close. My daughter rode with me in the ambulance to the hospital and I told her on the way, that as soon as her dad got to the hospital to go back home, get on my computer, use the IRC client I had open, and tell everyone in a particular channel what happened, and that I would be ok. I am very close to a lot of people in that channel and consider them part of my family. Was I wrong too? - April Russo (app103)

April, no, I don't think that was wrong. That type of announcement was closer to something like a mass email to a list and was not nearly as public as Twitter is. I think that's the problem here. She has exposed herself to our judgments, positive and negative, because Twitter is so wide-open and public. I think that's one of the sources of the problem here. We were not the intended recipients of this terrible news, but here we are all seeing it and analyzing it to death. - Kamilah Gill

There are different publics, as danah boyd is fond of saying. Every person's definition of what is public differs from the next. If it's an open IRC channel that anyone with an IRC client and the name of the network could join, I don't see how that's really any different from someone happening across Twitter and seeing a post. What I'm sensing is that the medium is what's really a... more... - cecily

Thanks, all, for the interesting and restrained discussion, which I am now calling closed. - s t e v e

Tamar Weinberg

does anyone know a tool that can calculate how many times a specific URL was retweeted (including shortened variations)?

December 11 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Shevonne liked this

If you find one, let us know. - Michael R. Bernstein

6 more comments

Something like bit.ly offers, but for any type of URL? Hmmm...that's a good question - Shevonne

On a related note, I'd like to see some sort of tool or service that took a long url and returned all known shortened versions. Unfortunately, several URL shorteners don't use canonical shortened URLs (ie. if user A and User B both shorten the same long URL they will each get a unique short URL), so this is problematic. - Michael R. Bernstein

Even if it doesn't exist, it seems like it would be trivial to develop assuming Twitter's API is up to it. - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

Hi Tamar happy chanukah ,you can try http://retweetist.com/users... ,they have a URL link search as well that is not working today , or http://topsy.com/tb..., if you want to check by words in the link you can try this one http://www.checkretweet.com/gizmodo... - Johni Fisher

topsy and backtweets worked. bit.ly doesn't do it. - Tamar Weinberg

backtype has a tool but it goes wider than just retweets - http://www.backtype.com/connect - chrisofspades

topsy is the best of the bunch.i LOVE topsy. - (dot)lizard kelly

See-ming Lee 李思明 SML to See-ming's feed, Android, Tech Support, AnswerFeed

I'm using the HTC Hero from Sprint right now. Firmware running at 1.5 but want to use Google Goggles which requires 1.6. I checked the firmware update and there's no options to get any update. What are my options? Is it even doable? #android #mobile

December 12 - Comment - Like - Share

rowlikeagirl, winckel, HTD and Adrian liked this

oh cool got it thanks! #smlthankyou http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-her... - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

29 more comments

Root it and get crackin: http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdi... - Adrian

yes i haven't done that step yet. I really should I guess? Does 'root'ing void waranty? I guess it probably doesn't matter. :D - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

I am trying to avoid hacking unless necessary - mainly because I want to develop some Android apps right now and I think it might be important for me to figure out what is possible in a 'normal' environment vs a hacked environment.. does that make any sense? - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

That does make sense, ooh! have you downloaded the SDK? also, I heard the Hero would go straight from 1.5 to 2. - (dot)lizard kelly

interesting... What's this Android Dev Phone? Worth getting? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

@dotlizard I am looking into it. I just bought the HTC Hero literally like last week! The SDK "ADT" looks like runs on Eclipse, my natural environment. Kudos! I'm so glad that I didn't switch to ATT. Patience is a virtue :) hahaha - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

I wouldn't want to mess with any 1. versions, 2.0 is such a huge change and in theory that's where all Android phones are headed. - (dot)lizard kelly

@dotlizard i see. Thanks for your suggestion. Very helpful! #smlthankyou - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

If you get a 2.0 SDK and some sort of emulator, and you make something interesting I'll happily test it for you on my Droid :) i really love this phone. - (dot)lizard kelly

haha sure thing. What's weird (and actually slightly annoying) is that I just joined a startup as their chief creative officer and one of the apps that they have been developing was something that basically just got released by Google: snap a photo and instantly recognize the artist + art :) but good that the app is not _the_ company :) - our site is not launched yet. When I get something brewing I will definitely put you down for any testing! :) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

Sounds good! - Adrian

oh look! http://ow.ly/1693F2 and there's an actual "google phone" in the wild, showing up in referrer logs! Android is def. the one to be involved with. - (dot)lizard kelly

I just put Van Gogh's Starry Night in my browser window, took pic with Goggles, and it came up with the right answer. - (dot)lizard kelly

haha cool thanks! Starry Night is easy though - can it pick up Josef Albers and other colorists? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... So want to try it out!!!! - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

it struggles with certain tones, i'm on my little acer. Let me get out the giant honkin' Lenovo W700 with the built in color calibrator and see what it can do on that. - (dot)lizard kelly

I tried a few of his images, no dice off the monitor (and I have a *very* good monitor) - Adrian

:) colorists are tricky. Maybe not enough database... Maybe Kandinsky? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... @Adrian what phone are you using? G1 can run this? This is so not fair!! - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

it nailed Kandinsky. - (dot)lizard kelly

Your phone can run it too. My G1's been rooted since LAST december. :D - Adrian

same here, it got Kandinsky - Adrian

Seems like colorists would be hard, geometric shapes and all ...it would be necessary to shoot it straight on and exact proportions and it would help if it was an actual picture on an actual wall -- that would be better info to scan. The Kandinsky had lots of unique shapes/colors. - (dot)lizard kelly

I guess I just wonder how large of a collection / database it holds - for example can it identify my photography if it's indexed by Google Images? http://www.google.com/images... :) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

ok something obscure from Whitney: http://www.whitney.org/Collect... - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

@Adrian per dotlizard observation I will hold off of rooting for now. I might get the dev phone though - looks interesting.. :) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

omg I just scanned an iStock photo and it came up with one "similar image" -- and it was the right one. that was freaking awesome. - (dot)lizard kelly

Wow that truly is unimaginably awesome! - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML from Android

oh, and i highly recommend checking out a thing called gmote. http://gmote.org. makes the phone into a remote control for computer media files. even (might) play those files on the phone. just installed it and it's full of awesomeness. - (dot)lizard kelly

i am not sure why i'd want to do this much but i am typing this on the computr with the phone - (dot)lizard kelly

@dotlizard oh cool thanks - as you probably realized from my last comment I went to bed (switched to android) checking it out now!!! - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

omg Gmote is freaking awesome. Thank you!!!! #smlthankyou - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: Public Option Dead? Or Recrafted? - http://www.drumsnwhistles.com/2009...

December 8 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"Well, this is actually good, and it actually looks like it'll cost me what I estimated back a few dozen estimates ago, which is to say, an additional $500/mo over what I am paying now. Which is fine really. Current situation is that I have excellent insurance, and my domestic partner (I've been living with my son's father for 19 years. I won't marry him. Long story) has horrible insurance with dependent coverage that would -- maybe -- pay if there were bills over $5K for either of them. However that goes away after the first of the year because he's quitting his part time job to run a small nonprofit corp (no benefits). Meaning I have to add them both, which ... well, even if we went the option figured on the PDF thingy you were pointed to, would be the same as me adding them to my excellent coverage. It was actually better to handle the out of pocket for the two of them myself with the huge deductible policy, I spend a lot less than $6K a year that way. But i can't go..." - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

my s-i-l has noise-canceling headphones. let's see if they can handle the insanely drunk armenian dancing. if u have nvr experienced itsLOUD

December 5 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

See-ming Lee 李思明 SML and Michael W. May liked this

For noise-sealing earphones, I recommended the Shure SE530: http://bit.ly/61R5HA I love mine! - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

2 more comments

for armenian dancing, I recommend crashing the party and partaking of some of said drink and dancing :D - Michael W. May

what is armenian dancing anyway? - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

i describe it as armenian dancing b/c my s-i-l is armenian, & though he was born here, the family is all from the old country. it's hard to explain - an arabic vibe with that sort of rhythm & cadence, but without the inhibitions one would associate with some of the more devout factions. I can't even tell you how much I love my son-in-law & his family, they are the awesomest ever. and not just for the parties, though those ROCK. - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: vatican feature’s Tupac’s ‘Changes’ on myspace playlist - http://godlizard.com/2009...

December 4 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"From CNN: The list was compiled by Father Giulio Neroni, artistic director of church publisher St Paul's Multimedia. He was also responsible for compiling the Vatican's recent Alma Mater album, which combined Gregorian chants and prayers with classical music and the voice of Pope Benedict XVI speaking in five languages. "The genres are very different from each other, but all these artists share the aim to reach the heart of good minded people," the Vatican wrote on its official MySpace Music page. To see what they mean by reaching good-hearted people, I have added the lyrics in the "read more" area of the post. I looked for some interpretations of the lyrics on the internet, this might explain: "2pac speaks with more sense than any other rapper did and will ever do... probably because he sees the dark reality of life, puts them in his songs and through them, try to make a difference or at least break the ignorance in others... This song speaks of racial discrimination against the..." - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: good news roundup - http://godlizard.com/2009...

December 3 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"I've been thinking that it would be a good thing to devote some energy to finding more positive stories, and supporting wholeheartedly anyone who speaks out in favor of mutual respect and peaceful coexistence. I was actually somewhat surprised to find all those things in my feed reader this evening, perhaps I need to add some search terms so I can seek out more positivity." - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: lawlessness and godlessness - http://godlizard.com/2009...

December 3 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"Ahh, ok. I'm sometimes easily confused :)" - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: trust the wisdom of children - http://godlizard.com/2009...

December 2 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"And they are better people for being trusted, respected, and given choices :) I know you're an awesome mom, you've raised strong, free-thinking children who are confident in their own decisions." - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: lawlessness and godlessness - http://godlizard.com/2009...

December 2 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"We are very fortunate, and my son will have another bike by next week. The kid-bike-stealing asshole will continue to have a massively fucked up life, you can't sneak around in the dead of night cutting used entry-level teenager-sized Mongoose bikes out of their locks if there is even a shred of anything worth anything in you. I know exactly what you mean about those judgmental asshole Church Ladies - did she consider that the mother NEEDED to work to pay for her sick child to get care? I try very hard to be accepting of all people of all faiths (as long as they are not trying to force anything on me), but people like that try my patience. I'm sure you'll do awesome in those online classes!" - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: trust the wisdom of children - http://godlizard.com/2009...

December 1 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"Thanks. It's a bit nerve-wracking to go the trust / honesty route rather than the "you're living under my roof you'll do what I say" route, but when it works, it feels *so* much better than just winning a battle of wills. I must give some credit to my oldest, she was as stubborn as I was as a child, and so part of my "trust your judgment" philosophy came from not wanting to try and argue with her. I was quite delighted to find that it worked :) And now she's almost 27, married, a nurse, with two adorable little boys. So it really did work out for the best." - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: an odd reaction to tragedy - http://godlizard.com/2009...

November 30 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"http://www.bugmenot.com/ allows you to find logins for those annoying types of sites. They have several for the Seattle PI: http://www.bugmenot.com/view..." - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: frighetning statistics - http://godlizard.com/2009...

November 27 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"test" - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: Gina Unfiltered (Palin Supporters Struggle To Explain Why They...) - http://ginaunfiltered.tumblr.com/post...

November 23 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"I had low expectations going in as to the political literacy of that crowd, but they managed to be even bigger morons than I expected." - (dot)lizard kelly

See-ming Lee 李思明 SML to See-ming's feed, (dot)lizard kelly

I thought that I'd send you message here instead as it's more followable :) I was asking you if the Queen of " " (forgotten which country now) is the real queen or not :)

November 22 - Comment - Like - Share

Ahh, I see. No, she's just a regular person -- well, I mean, she used to be a radio commentator and is now in some important position with BlogHer, so that's pretty awesome, but no, she's not a queen :) - (dot)lizard kelly

5 more comments

BlogHer? What's BlogHer? :) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

a big community website for women who blog, they are usually very prominent at the bloggy conventions and whatnot. And they have some political clout, here's Erin aka QueenofSpain interviewing the future president: http://www.youtube.com/watch... - (dot)lizard kelly

cute. what a great name (play on blogger) :) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

references: http://www.blogher.com/ Wikipedia: "BlogHer refers to a group blog and online community, and to an annual blogging conference for women. Three of the 2005 conference organizers, Elisa Camahort, Jory des Jardins, and Lisa Stone, began a company, Blogher LLC, which in 2006 also began a blog ad network. In 2007, BlogHers Act, a political blogging network by and for women, was started by the company." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

http://www.blogher.com/haystac... And this is Erin :) - (dot)lizard kelly

awsome. Thanks! - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

Mary Carmen

I love how Budweiser acts like it tastes good.

November 22 - Comment - Like - Share

(dot)lizard kelly, Michael W. May, teh Dork Knight aka Kenny and 3 other people liked this

For real. - Michelle Martinez

2 more comments

Never found any noticeable difference between Budweiser and tap water, so I drink the latter, as it's much less expensive, and save my money for beer instead! - Ian May

Amen, Ian. - Mary Carmen

Why is Budweiser like having sex in a canoe? Because they're both fucking close to water! - (dot)lizard kelly

Robert Scoble

Why Google Chrome OS has already won - http://scobleizer.com/2009...

November 20 from Scobleizer - Comment - Like - Share

Mike Reynolds, PiccoloImprenditore, fijidaddy and 33 other people liked this

I agree: "Google is playing a different game. Google Chrome OS is NOT about killing Microsoft or Apple". - l'Ego di Gigi

25 more comments

Agree with Gigi. Don't take my words just because I work for Microsoft Italy, but my question is fair I suppose. What I do with a Google Chrome OS Netbook when I do not have any kind of connectivity, for instance? For example, Italy still does not have free wifi anywhere and the rates for a GPRS/UMTS connectivity are still high in comparison to the data you want to use with them. It will be a very interesting competitive scenario soon... - Andrea Contino

@Andrea then Google Chrome OS is not an option for you. not a big deal. Google's OS market will be anywhere which has the most important requirement for this OS which is a low price high-speed internet - Mohamadreza

Basically entertainment and socialization is moving online. Portable devices being able to access those services is what Google is focusing on. They want to be the eco-vehicle that gets you to those things. MS, Mac, Linux can do the same, but how much overhead is there since you can do more with them then just internet activities. Its a different world they are choosing to be part of.... more... - Uncle CW™

Google OS is for North America primarily. Europe and a bunch of other areas don't have ubiquitous Internet like the US. So we're talking about a fairly confined market here anyway. - Frank Jonen

Google OS is for the Internet, and the Internet is for the whole world. - l'Ego di Gigi

@Mohamadreza Not a big deal for me. Try to share some photos from a camera with a friend with a Chrome OS netbook without the Internet :-) That all I ment - Andrea Contino

ChromeOS is for my mum (and for me). I can buy her this laptop, get her to plug it in and outside of hardware, my 'free tech support' ends. The root is in read only and all her stuff is on the cloud. If there is a problem, hit restart and everything goes back to normal. - Johnny Worthington

"Why take a $1,000 computer to class? Couldn’t he do everything he needs to do on a low-cost computer" my 12 yr old kid has his Acer Aspire One, running Windows XP, definately not $1,000, good enough for web surfing, pulling up the web version of his math schoolbook, playing Mousehunt - Tim Jones

@Andrea Contino that's exactly what I mean. I second @Frank about the fairly confined market. this OS has no place in my and your room while we do not have the bandwidth it needs :-) and even my designer would not use it. we should not blame google for this issue. this OS is designed for the internet, not to be compared with PC or Mac - Mohamadreza

Chrome OS is everything at Google: nothing fancy but it works. And it works damn well. And I'm a long time apple fan an journalist. - Federico Bolsoman

Right now I really, really want to convert my little netbook to Chrome, just to see how well it gets along with my Droid. They could bluetooth together and do Googly things, it would be beautiful. - (dot)lizard kelly

Um, no. Unless companies can come out w/ sub $100 laptops (where's the profit in THAT!?!), I don't see Chrome OS being useful to nyone. I mean, if you have to spend ~$200 at least for a netbook, why not shell out another $100 or $200 for a low end notebook? Plus, even if you want a netbook for $200, Windows comes on it...so why switch to Chrome OS? No incentive. - Scott Carmichael

Scott... That assumes that the Windows OS is free to the manufacturer. What percentage of the build costs go to the purchase of the OEM version? - Johnny Worthington

Also, Microsoft are reported to be restricting the hardware that the Windows 7 Netbook edition can be installed on. Particularly processor speed and memory. No news yet on if that applies to ChromeOS - Johnny Worthington

Chrome OS is clearly overhyped. There will be no $100 netbooks - at least $200 (youtube or vimeo hd don't run on ultracheap cpu's). And just a $100 difference between a limited Chrome netbook and a fully capable Win machine will cause most people choose the latter. Remember all those Linux netbooks - return rate was sky-high, so manufacturers moved back to WinXP. And those Linux... more... - Kirill Petrovsky from fftogo

I figured it out -- Chrome OS is going to run on something like Crunchpad and its competitors (in the future maybe whenever hardware like that is available). I am guessing the market is limited though. Scoble will want one -- but he has one of everything . - Brian Sullivan

Today I have tried ChromeOS on my EeePC....... I could survive without. - l'Ego di Gigi

Actually, reading the comments to the Chrome-related posts, I noticed one idea people like, and which no one is against. That's a remote cloud desktop, with infinite firepower, replacing their desktop PCs. And ubiquitous access from any web-enabled device - at home and on the go. Now, who is working on that kind of technology... oh, it's Windows Azure for serving power and "3 screens and the cloud" concept for end-users. - Kirill Petrovsky from fftogo

Scott: Google makes billions of dollars WITHOUT SELLING ONE LAPTOP! How the hell? Hint: Google will make a LOT of money from $100 devices. - Robert Scoble

Robert: The ONLY way Google will be able to monetize this is if ads start appearing in the OS and/or web apps. In that case, it DEFINITELY will fail instantly. WHY? Let's not forget all those ad-filled PCs of the 90s where you got the computer for "free" but were bombarded by ads 24/7. Plus, have you done a parts cost analysis on a $100 device? Get back to me when you have. - Scott Carmichael

Google OS hasn't won anything except false hype. People aren't going to go out in droves to buy $100 sub-devices when just a bit more money can get you a full-fledged PC. - Spencer

Besides I predict no such device capable of internet access is going to priced at $100 ever. Prices of hardware are coming down but not that much. In fact I predict that no such device will cost $100 to build -- ever. - Brian Sullivan

The ChumbyOne is priced at $100 in the Chumby store right now: https://store.chumby.com/ Not the same device, of course, but not that different. - Ken Kennedy

I'd gladly order one of those if they were available in Canada. I believe Chris Pirillo did a review recently, and it looked quite good. - Kittyburgers

Brian, you are absolutely right. Even Nintendo & Sony's portable gaming devices are so cheap because they can (and do) subsidize hardware costs with the knowledge more profit will be made from software sales. So unless Google will be charging for web apps, I don't see hardware nowadays being that cheap, EVER, except maybe in 3rd world countries. - Scott Carmichael

Google OS is all together interesting 2 use together w/other OS, but 2 use as lone nay, I would not - polou/indigo_bow

Robert Scoble

@HilzFuld everyone I've shown it to has trouble with the main screen navigation on the Droid. Adding another direction greatly complicates.

November 11 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

I'd have commented, but there were too many there already, but here's a major "non-fail" product story for you: bought Droid first day, played all weekend till my hands were sore, took it to work (i work for a prominent ID firm). showed to coworkers, VP of design ooh-ing and ahh-ing, playing with it. when we were called into the morning meeting, he runs in waving my telephone saying,... more... - (dot)lizard kelly

The cooles phone around is not Iphone anymore. - Asgeir

I agree with Scob on this. I played around with one for a while, and found the quality of everything I played with to be severely lacking. Websites didn't display properly, the apps I tried were ugly by comparison, and it was hard to navigate around. It also seemed slower to me, but I attributed that to Verizon. - Otto

(dot)lizard kelly

Twitter, the Fort Hood tragedies, and ... Iran? - http://dotlizard.com/posts...

November 11 from StumbleUpon - Comment - Like - Share

Counterpoint to Paul Carr of TechCrunch.com dissing tweeted news. - (dot)lizard kelly

Karoli

twitter, you can't be serious. filtering retweets one person at a time? GMAFB

November 5 - Comment - Like - Share

ursi and (dot)lizard kelly liked this

wait, what? - (dot)lizard kelly

7 more comments

theyr'e rolling out the new retweet which discourages all conversation. you can choose which rts you want to see, by toggling the switch on each user. LOL - Karoli

that works for me some peeps too spammy - Mark Forman

Having to set the setting for each user is annoying. Seems like it's just like their device notification settings. - Rahsheen ™, Coach Rah

well is there anything keeping us from using the old-fashioned DIY retweet? - (dot)lizard kelly

Mark, if you don't like spam you'll hate the new retweet. HATE IT. - Karoli

dotlizard, I suppose it depends on whether the twitter police are listening. but think about tweetmeme and the other RT metric measurements. If we don't play on twitter's playground, metrics go nuts. - Karoli

dunno haven't seen yet??? - Mark Forman

How're the twitter police gonna stop us from doing it however we want? - TxVoodoo

See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

Stefan Sagmeister: Yes, design can make you happy - http://www.youtube.com/watch...

October 31 from Google Reader - Comment - Like - Share

(dot)lizard kelly liked this

i watched this right after you (live sharing on YT rocks!) -- amazing video. made me happy just watching it. - (dot)lizard kelly

haha live sharing?!?! hehe cool ;) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

April Buchheit

"Blue Cross sent me a postage-prepaid postcard to send to my Senator opposing a Public Option" (PICS) - Democratic Underground - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss...

October 26 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Laura (hear me raura?), Michael Muller, Jay Cuthrell and 98 other people liked this

"So I'm using Blue Cross's postage to send MY message. Thanks Blue Cross for the postage." - April Buchheit from Bookmarklet

148 more comments

Ingenious. - Itachi

The postcard says "Postage will be paid by addressee", which implies it's the senator who will be paying the postage. Of course, the senator's franking privileges may make it so that the taxpayers pay the postage. - Gabe

True. But why is it that the Senator Hagan/taxpayers should be paying for Blue Cross' message? - Christopher Chung

My friend did this, too. I hope I get one in the mail. - Ayşe E.

They haven't sent me one of these, but when they do, I'll be sure to mail it in unmodified (or with a big "NO ON PUBLIC OPTION" written on it, perhaps). The very notion of government run health insurance is a travesty that will end up bankrupting this country. - Otto

So you don't think Medicare or the Veterans Health Administration is going to pan out, even after all these years? - Mark Trapp

Medicare and the VA system are living proof of my statements. They offer crappy service and are continually costing more and more as time goes on. They are unsustainable in the long term, and basically expanding these failures to cover everybody is only going to accelerate the problem. - Otto

What's long term? The VA system has been going since 1778, and Medicare since 1965. Are you thinking at the 300 year mark, they'll finally collapse? - Mark Trapp

Right on! Good for you! That's a great idea - Ciaoenrico

Our Canadian single-payer health care has been going strong for some time now with no risk of bankruptcy. I'd like to see some evidence that our system is unsustainable. - Matt Mastracci

The VA system is garbage, ask any veteran who has to use it on a regular basis. And medicare is on the verge of bankruptcy, and has been for at least decade now. Last I checked, medicare was the biggest drain of tax revenue that exists. Predictions I've seen give it 10 more years, tops, even with restructuring. - Otto

What Matt said. - Nathalie, Dreamer of FF

Love this post. - Trish R

That's awesome! - Jan Ole Peek

Of course, the assertion that government-run health insurance is unsustainable (whether Medicare, the VA, the Canadian system, or any other) raises the question of what system is more sustainable than government-run insurance. It's certainly not the current American one. ... I love April's use of the mailer. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of health care reform... But insurance reform is unnecessary. The problem is not the insurance companies, their reactions and bad-behaviors are created by the high cost of medical care to begin with. Fix the health care system to not cost so damn much, and the problems with insurance will solve themselves. Strike at the source of the problems, not at the consequences of them. - Otto

Otto: Insurance causes high prices of medical care. Since you don't pay, the hospital can set its prices arbitrarily high and the insurance company pays whatever its maximum is. Since the insurance company pays so much, they have to have high insurance rates, which makes insurance expensive to buy. If the government had their own insurance, they would be big enough to demand low prices,... more... - Gabe

That's insane. The existence of insurance does not cause the high price of medial care. You have it exactly backwards. Furthermore, the idea of a government-run-insurance plan would not solve that problem, if it was at all the truth, because you're dealing with a supply demand situation. The government run plan could say they weren't going to pay above $X, at which point the medical... more... - Otto

The truth is that most of the waste in medical costs comes from two places: administrative overhead and fraud. Both of these are primarily caused by Medicare and the bureaucracy surrounding it. - Otto

Otto: Why is that you keep ignoring all the evidence from other countries that support national health care (e.g. http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues...) and you also keep ignoring the facts that show that medicare has lower costs that private insurance (e.g. http://www.cms.hhs.gov/Nationa... ) - Robert Felty

@Otto - why do you think there is so much administrative overhead? To deal with all the different insurance companies and the reems of paperwork to get a claim approved and avoid malpractice suits. That means more people have to be hired and trained just to deal with all that stuff and more systems and processes have to be put in place to handle it all. Insurance companies make more... more... - Fa La La La Lindsay

@Lindsay: I know several people who work in administrative roles in hospitals. Not one of them agrees with you. The problem isn't the insurance forms and such, those are fairly standard. Almost all of the administrative overhead is due specifically to Medicare. And no, I do not work in the health insurance industry, so your ad-hominem attack makes no sense whatsoever. Why is it that... more... - Otto

@Robert: I'm not ignoring evidence from other countries, I'm discounting most of it based on facts that contradict the ones you are linking to. And Medicare has lower costs than private insurance because it rarely pays for anything. How many people who have medicare must also have their own insurance in order to get proper medical treatment? Have you looked up the numbers on that? - Otto

Otto, how does limiting the pricing result in providers refusing service? In Canada, the Federal Government sets the pricing schedule, but the private providers are still here, providing us good service for a set fee. More info on our system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... I would say that our health care system is an excellent counterpoint to "if you fix the fees at a certain point, providers will stop providing service". - Matt Mastracci

Otto - would you care to share some references which contain the facts that contradict those which I shared? I am open-minded, but I need to see actual data from credible sources to form my opinions. - Robert Felty

How does Otto make the claim that insurance isn't even part of the problem when medical loss ratios in the health insurance business have dropped from 95% to 80% in just 15 years? (and if you don't know what that means, you don't have an informed opinion about health care reform.) - Andrew C

I am always amazed at the ignorance of those arguing against public health care services when practically the entire world is doing it and they always have their facts wrong about Medicare and every other system. They'll become advocates when they or their loved ones are being evicted or foreclosed upon while they are dying an excruciating and untreated death. - Brad Nickel

Otto, just exactly how many veterans have you actually talked to? The VA definitely has flaws, but all the veterans I've talked to seem to like the service provided, and often compare it favorably to the private sector. And why are all those people out there so opposed to changing Medicare if it's so terrible? Since you've stated you haven't seen a doctor in decades, how could you possibly have any experience with any health care system whatsoever? - Victor Ganata

FFS... @Matt: Canada has a lower doctor to patient ratio than anybody else does, and it's decreasing all the time. @Robert: You have Google. Use it. I wouldn't believe links you provide me, so why should you believe links I provide you? Do your own research and make up your own mind. I'm not trying to convince you or anybody else, and I frankly don't care what you believe. @Andrew C:... more... - Otto

*shrug* I'm supposed to be swayed by second-hand anecdotal evidence from someone who doesn't have any recent direct experience with any health care system? If you don't care, why do you continue to post? - Victor Ganata

*shrug* I'm supposed to be swayed by somebody who actually has a vested interest in the health care system (ie, a doctor)? See, I can use fallacious arguments as well as you can, Victor! ;) Also, I post to express my opinions and ideas. Why else would anybody post anything? - Otto

Otto, your facts on doctor:patient ratio are incorrect. Our ratio is 2.2 per 1000, versus 2.4 per 1000 in the USA. In fact, our ratio has improved from 2.1 in the 1990s. While our doctor:patient ratio is not as high as other public health care systems, it isn't far off that of the USA. - Matt Mastracci

Here's my reference: http://www.oecd.org/dataoec... "Between 1990 and 2007, the number of doctors per capita remained relatively stable in Canada" - Matt Mastracci

Otto, but, fair is fair, so long as you don't pretend your anecdotes are generalizable truth, I won't pretend mine are either. It is clear that you do have quite a grasp on fallacious arguments. :) And I do agree that it's important to consider the source of your evidence. - Victor Ganata

Otto, the dropping medical loss ratio specifically means an increasing share of premiums isn't going towards paying for health care; that is /by itself/ inherently bad! In an actual working market, advances in efficiency, if any, would be passed along to the consumers in the form of lower premiums. Instead, prices are getting jacked up even faster than health care inflation because the health care insurance industry exploits monopoly power. - Andrew C

@Matt: According to the WHO: http://nofearsingapore.blogspot.com/2007... the numbers are slightly different. Close, admittedly. However, the important thing to note is that Canada's ratio is the lowest among almost all industrialized countries, which was my point. I was not comparing to the US, specifically. - Otto

@Andrew C: I understand what "medical loss ratio" means. I understand what "profit" and "premiums" are. What I don't understand is why you think a company should not be allowed to make a legitimate profit? Insurance is gambling. If you don't like the bet, then don't gamble. Or, if you really want to see the loss ratios decrease, then ALLOW COMPETITION. Currently there is virtually no... more... - Otto

You make no sense. A company should certainly be allowed to make a legitimate profit, but indefinitely extracting rent at this level is a clear symptom of market-setting power. Trying to call one the other doesn't actually make them the same thing. Also, people can only reasonably get it from their employer _because that's the only affordable option_. Individual insurance exists; it's... more... - Andrew C

I find it pretty funny BTW that you have implicitly agreed with the rest of us that the health care _insurance_ industry actually is part of the problem. - Andrew C

"Insurance is gambling. If you don't like the bet, then don't gamble." It shouldn't have to be a game. Everyone is going to need medical attention at some point in their life. It's a matter of how you will be able to afford to pay for it. People pay for insurance because it's the only way they can afford to ensure that their health will be taken care of. It's not really an option if you... more... - Fa La La La Lindsay

lolling at the "insurance is a gamble" statement. Classic. - Andrizzle Gizzle

It's the conservative message: You're On Your Own. - Andrew C

For the record, I'm not a conservative. I'm also not a liberal. I'm a person, with my own opinions and ideas. Labeling people only means that you're not paying attention to what they're saying. - Otto

@Andrew C: Individual insurance is priced out of the market because of regulations limiting what kinds of plans can be offered. Why can I not a health insurance plan for, say, emergencies only? I'm healthy, I don't have any need to go to the doctor much, I never get sick, the only reason I'd need to do so would be an accident. So why can't I buy that insurance? State regulations... more... - Otto

@Lindsay: Your statements are provably false. Not everyone is going to need medical attention at some point in their lives. Furthermore, if your statement was true, health insurance would not work at all, since the entire point of "insurance" is to spread risk. If risk was 100%, as you claim, then there's nothing to spread. For the record, I do not currently have, nor need, health... more... - Otto

So basically you're gambling, hoping that you will "win the game". At what point do you decide you need insurance? And hopefully you don't get anything before then. It is pointless to argue with someone like this, just let him enjoy his smug satisfaction on having figured out the whole mess. - Andrizzle Gizzle

Everyone has some chance of getting hit by a bus or eating E.coli tainted food or having a tree branch fall on them. {shrug} - Andrew C

Except for the winners who have somehow divined ways not to do so, I guess. - Andrew C

@Otto, your claim about emergencies-only plans being ruled out seems incorrect to me: http://www.insurance.com/health-... - Andrew C

Otto is completely right. Insurance, not having insurance, it's all gambling. What's relevant is regulation limits choices; or forces one person's judgement and preferences on another. Big government healthcare won't work because the government can't do anything well because unlike a market it doesn't have distributed knowlege and I don't think the incentives are right. Witness the UK's... more... - Rob Fisher

While I don't know if we're using the word catastrophe in the same way, clearly there are policies that have very high deductibles where realistically, the only time they would pay benefits would be if you ended up hospitalized. And there are plenty of policies that don't cover preventative care at all. Even these types of policies are out of the reach of quite a few Americans. - Victor Ganata

What a silly response Otto. Its all emotional. Why do you think the argument here is so passionate? The fact that you would even dismiss it that way tells me everything I need to know about your point of view and existence. Sad. - Brad Nickel from email

If "the government can't do anything well" why do they even exist? Unless you're an anarchist, I can't see how it makes sense. - Victor Ganata

There are limited things governments might be good at. Defense of the realm; keeping the peace. They are not good at providing goods and services. When they try to provide (or control the supply of) food, for example, you get famine. That's because you need market signals to stimulate [the right amount of] supply [and demand<delete], and that information is not centralised. The same problem affects government supplied healthcare. Hence waiting lists. - Rob Fisher

We have waiting lists now. In what way are the NHS's waiting lists worse than the delays caused by having to argue with insurance companies to get coverage for diagnostic tests, procedures, and specialist referrals? - Victor Ganata

Because the latter involves the invisible hand somehow! - Andrew C

It's hard to say. I'm not arguing that you don't have a problem, just that more government isn't the solution. E.g. on the NHS you often end up paying for your own treatment anyway just so you get it in time. This is not an improvement. - Rob Fisher

So that's not really different from the current system we have now: you can always pay cash. I think "more government isn't the solution" is a bare assertion that needs a fair amount of evidence to actually prove. - Victor Ganata

Medicare and the VHA have waiting lists? Really? I haven't ever heard anyone waiting for Medicare, and it's single payer. I haven't heard of anyone in England (or Canada, or any other developed country) put on a waiting list. Do you have evidence to support that? You would write off education, food safety, the highway system, firemen, and air safety as well? Seems like you're asking for a very extreme form of government that isn't very much like what developed countries are or what they provide. - Mark Trapp

Otto: The way that discourse works in research-based journals is that one person makes a claim, and backs that up with either data, and/or references to other research. I would happily read any references you give. I don't understand why you wouldn't look at references that I give. - Robert Felty

Rob Fisher: if government controlled healthcare doesn't work, then why does Canada spend less on health care per person, but have lower infant mortality rates, and longer life expectancy? In addition, these numbers have improved since they started their single payer system, while our numbers have basically remained flat. http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues... - Robert Felty

Victor: What can I say? You probably won't be impressed by my Austrian economics theory. You could come and live in the UK and get sick, and see what it's like. :) I do hope the USA manages to avoid the worst of it. Maybe look around at what many other countries do; I don't think anyone gets it quite right. Singapore seems to have good healthcare; but their statistics look good partly... more... - Rob Fisher

I also think it's fallacious to believe we're actually arguing about a completely government controlled system. The public option is not even close to a true single-payer system, and nowhere near a nationalized health care system. It is quite similar to Medicare, except with different eligibility criteria, and as far as I can tell, Medicare doesn't seem to have destroyed the private health insurance industry, no matter how many people try to argue that slippery slope. - Victor Ganata

Part of the reason all healthcare isn't like that is because not all health procedures and exams are as simple as eye exams. - Andrew C

@Rob Fisher - the number of Canadians who seek treatment in the US is not very large: http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi... - Andrew C

You probably can't get a new liver in an hour and expect to have a good outcome no matter where you go. - Victor Ganata

But you should be able to get simple scans and tests quickly and cheaply. You can't on the NHS. The point about this not being about an NHS-like system is taken, though. - Rob Fisher

If you are insured by a private insurer in the US your health fate is decided by insurance underwriters and doctor panels whose sole mandate is to save and make money for the company- not to keep you healthy or prevent you from getting sick or sicker. A doctor's intuition on what a patient may need, even in terms of preventative/investigative testing is hooey as far as they are... more... - Karma Martell

How do we get to a point where you can make money by keeping people healthy? People want to be healthy, so it must be doable. - Rob Fisher

The prescription drug cos would fold, Rob. That is not what they want. - Karma Martell

i wish i could do more than "like" this. oh, and while i'm here loving this, @Rob Fisher -- my answer is, make money doing something other than "keeping people healthy" -- putting profit and human life in the same objective is bound to have some horrifying conflicts of interest, no matter how pure the "health" motivation is. and with $$ involved, it will never even be close to approximating pure. - (dot)lizard kelly

@Rob - you can make money by keeping people healthy, but as (dot)lizard kelly just said, you can make _more_ money by not... for example, by collecting premiums from healthy people and denying coverage to your sick customers. - Andrew C

@kelly - I wouldn't mind people profiting by keeping people healthy. Hospitals and doctors do that. The trouble with insurance companies is that they profit by denying people care. - John (a.k.a. dendroica)

Karma: As long as *someone* can make money at it, doesn't matter who. (dot)lizard kelly: food is important to be healthy; people make money at providing food; no conflict of interest there. I'm not convinced there's anything so different about healthcare. I'll sleep on it and let you know if I have thought of an amazing business plan in the morning. And if it doesn't work, I'll be looking for regulations that stop it working. - Rob Fisher

(I suspect the reason is you can't switch insurance companies easily.) - Rob Fisher

Simple scans and tests frequently lead to incidental findings that are almost always benign but lead to literal million dollar workups. I actually don't think easy access to everything is always the right answer. - Victor Ganata

The food example may not be a good counter-argument here in the U.S., where farmers have actually been paid not to grow things in order to artificially keep prices up. - Victor Ganata

Evidently you and others that spout this free market gobbldy gook have never worked for corporate America and the absolute incompetence in those organizations. Hello , can you say mortgage, banking, savings and loan, energy, etc etc etc. It is a lie and a myth and you folks have gotten away with it for far too long! Thanks, Brad - Brad Nickel from email

I have worked for corp America. As Brad says, free market is never free. The wealth is not distributed. There needs to be accountability and standards. As Obama says, an insurance co should not be able to come between a decision made by you and your doctor. And Victor, it's about fair access, not just access if you have the money and you can override the system. - Karma Martell

The problem is that access is controlled by two forces: actual medical need, and the need to generate a profit, and lots of times these forces end up opposing each other. As the costs of medical care continue to increase, I think we're going to have to decide as a society which is actually more important. - Victor Ganata

This is not to say that I don't think people who actually provide the care shouldn't be compensated for their labor. (In my case, that's just self-interest.) But there's a huge difference between fair compensation and outright profiteering. - Victor Ganata

So who is paying for the "Public Option"? - Brett Veenstra

And who here does not know Blue Cross is a private company. - Mahmood Padura

If you go by what's in the House bill, the public option will initially be financed by seed money from the federal government that is supposed to be paid back in 10 years. In the long run, it's supposed to be funded entirely by the premiums of people who choose to participate in the plan. - Victor Ganata

Otto: it is not the existence of insurance companies that keep prices high (auto insurance's existence doesn't make auto repairs artificially inflated), it is how the system works. If I am a healthcare provider and you are a patient who will only pay $100 no matter how expensive the treatment is, I can set the price as high as I want. Your insurance might only cover $500, but somebody else's might cover $1000 or $5000, so there's no reason I shouldn't set my price at $5000 for the treatment. - Gabe

Furthermore, let's say that there's a 1% chance that you'll need another $5000 test (an MRI perhaps). If you do need it and I don't give it to you, there's a chance you'll sue me and my malpractice insurance goes way up. If I give it to you and you don't need it, you don't care because you're not paying for it. You end up getting lots unnecessary tests just so I don't get sued. In... more... - Gabe

I dunno, didn't Japan solve the MRI problem by providing lots of them and driving the cost-per-exam down? ( http://www.pbs.org/wgbh... ) - Andrew C

And besides, the insurance companies in the States deal with that problem by denying procedures. - Andrew C

Health care is not a right http://peikoff.com/video-u... - Crutis

It might be instructive to look at the US airline industry before and after deregulation. It used to be that prices were fixed, so airlines competed on service. This meant that service was good, and profits were built-in so airlines weren't constantly in bankruptcy. It also meant that flying was a luxury that most people could not afford, which made it not so crowded either. After... more... - Gabe

Unless you intend on repealing EMTALA, access to emergency care regardless of ability to pay is in fact a guaranteed right in the U.S. - Victor Ganata

Hmmmm... Unless Crutis you think they fall within Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! Thanks, Brad - Brad Nickel from email

What of someone is happiest if they choose not to acquire health care insurance? It would seem to me that the imposition would thwart their pursuit and remove their liberty. - Mattb4rd

When are we going to learn that the cake really is a lie? Re: Washington D.C. - I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. - Mattb4rd

Civilization is impossible without some form of government. The idea that we can live without it is the lie. - Victor Ganata

No, the lie is that government is somehow required in all aspects of daily life. Civilization does need government, but mostly it needs it to stay as small as possible and leave people alone as much as possible. You are not a child. Grow up and deal with your own problems instead of expecting the rest of society to take care of you. - Otto

BTW, a "public option" doesn't actually bother me provided you use absolutely zero tax money to pay for it. Make it paid for entirely by the premiums of the people who opt-in to it, and I have no further argument against it whatsoever. (Also, eliminate the part of the current plan that imposes tax penalties on those of us who choose to not have health insurance, as that is simply flat-out wrong. If I choose to cover my own risk, then that is my business, not the governments.) - Otto

Yeah Otto, that works well. For example banks, mortgage companies, savings and loans, toys from China, Enron.... The naive Libertarian view of the world that somehow everything will work out in the end and all will be well makes me laugh every time I hear it. Greed, perversion, violence, and chaos don't go away when the government goes away. Human run institutions are all equally flawed... more... - Brad Nickel from email

Brad: I don't know what world you're living in, but it's not the same one I am. Government has done very little good in the world, and is in fact responsible for the vast majority of evil in it. Perhaps you forget who's waging wars, eh? A few people inconvenienced by a bank or who signed bad mortgages doesn't really much compare to millions and millions of dead people. Also, "this... more... - Otto

Sure, because the US Department of Defense had absolutely nothing to do with the Internet whatsoever. But I agree. To believe that the government is either completely virtuous or always evil is delusional. - Victor Ganata

Actually Otto, religion and greed are responsible for most of the wars. Whether a government fights them or not is irrelevant and these days its private corporations that are fighting much of our wars and doing a piss poor job of it as evidenced by the debacle that is Iraq. That there is a fine example of where we should have let government run things, but we had to privatize things at... more... - Brad Nickel from email

@Victor: The DoD had very little to do with creating the internet, short of funding it. They paid for it in order to connect universities together (whom they were funding for other projects as well). It's not like they sent over a bunch of engineers to lay some cables or actually wrote any of the protocols or anything. Vint Cerf didn't actually go work for DARPA until 1976. The first pipes were laid when he was still in school. - Otto

@Brad: It's amazing to me that anybody can espouse a philosophy like yours, which enables governments to control the population and do basically anything they like, including killing millions of innocent people through senseless wars and immoral legislation. Corporations didn't bomb Iraq and Afghanistan, the federal government did. Corporations didn't lie to us about the non-existent... more... - Otto

Yes, because ordinary people with no funding or government backing whatsoever can always complete large scale worldwide projects if they just work hard enough, without any assistance. Rugged individualism FTW. - Victor Ganata

@Victor: Why must everything come down to "large scale" and "worldwide" in your view? Are you so incapable of taking care of your own problems that you want to a) take care of everybody else's and b) have yours taken care of by everybody else? We're talking about health care. Why must "health" be a worldwide problem, to the extent that you want to take away individual rights in favor of... more... - Otto

Otto, where are we talking about taking away individual rights? I'm talking about HR 3200, not some fantastical single payer system or some nationalized health care system from your paranoid nightmares. Don't be a fool. Look around you right now. Clearly health can be a worldwide problem. And it's disingenuous to believe the Internet would have been built if some government hadn't been around to provide funding. - Victor Ganata

Silly Otto... Its obvious that an informed conversation with you is impossible, since you are unable to defend your actual philosophy or arguments and rely upon distortions and extremely silly exaggerations to try and make a point when the question being asked can not be answered with the truth. This happens every single time I debate a Libertarian. They can't explain themselves or how... more... - Brad Nickel from email

Because we'll have to pay for your silly self to keep you alive when you are sick and dying and don't have coverage. - Brad Nickel from email

@Victor: HR3200 takes away my right to choose my own health insurance (in my case, none) by imposing additional taxation and penalties for my choice. It also uses tax money to finance the "public option", which I'm firmly opposed to. And it's disingenuous to believe that the internet would have NOT been built if the government had not provided the funding. It would have happened... more... - Otto

@Brad: I'm tired of listening to your socialist and communist rhetoric. (See? I can apply incorrect labels just as well as you can! I'm not a "Libertarian".) Anyway, if you want the government to control your life, keep it to yourself, I'm not interested. Also, if you can find anywhere I called you anything other than "Brad", I'd be very interested. Note: Saying your ideas amount to "totalitarianism" isn't name-calling when it's true. - Otto

You are a funny guy Otto and I mean that in all the ways it can be interpreted. - Brad Nickel

Fine. Welcome to my block list, Brad. If you ever grow up and decide that you want to have a real conversation instead of trolling, then I'll be happy to oblige you. Until then, just rant incoherently to somebody else, eh? - Otto

LOL. See what I mean. You are funny. - Brad Nickel

Are you kidding me about the Internet, Otto? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Note that 2 of the original nodes were UC schools--government funded public schools. With HR 3200, it's obviously going to take money to get the public option up and running, but it's supposed to be paid back in 10 years. As for the mandate, it's not ideal, but I don't see how else it will work. Otherwise,... more... - Victor Ganata

No, I think they are supposed to let him die. - Brad Nickel

@Victor: No, I'm not kidding, and that link backs up every word I just said about it. As for the public option paying for itself, are you joking? Medicare is continuously in the red (average benefit per person in Medicare is $11,000 per year!) , and you think making a bigger version will somehow magically work? As for the mandate, that's an absolute deal-breaker, because it it is... more... - Otto

That's how government projects almost always work: they award private companies contracts to do the work. Even HR 3200 is structured that way. - Victor Ganata

If you actually look at it, HR 3200 isn't structured like Medicare. And why is it that state laws that mandate you to carry auto insurance if you drive haven't been struck down by the Supreme Court if it's so unconstitutional? If you're totally healthy there are policies with $10,000 annual deductibles that cost like $50 a month. Obviously, the health insurance companies would rather you pay for a more expensive plan if they can get you to. - Victor Ganata

Why in the world is a high deductible insurance plan not what you want, Otto? - Andrew C

"Medicare is continuously in the red" - regular people who aren't on Medicare either lose benefits or coverage entirely or get outrageous rate hikes, so I'm not sure why you seem to keep claiming private insurance is any better... - Andrew C

My goodness, a single-payer plan in BC costs ~$54/person/month and the deductible is way lower than $10K. And what I lose in 'freedom', I gain back in peace of mind and more money in my pocket overall. (and isn't the glibertarian definition of freedom money?) (Amazingly, the US actually spends as much _government_ money on health care per capita as Canada, and then of course far more in private money on top.) - Andrew C

@Victor: a) State laws don't require you to carry auto insurance. They require you to carry auto insurance *OR* post a bond for some fixed amount, in case you hit somebody else. and b) Auto insurance is about liability (protecting other people from you), while health insurance is not (it's about about protecting you from other things, people included). - Otto

@Andrew C: I fail to understand the question. A high deductible insurance plan is not what I want, because it is not what I want. What I want is a health insurance plan that will only cover me from, say, accident. Something that doesn't cover routine crap which I won't be needing anyway, or which I can pay for myself. In cases where there is an accident, I don't want *any* deductible,... more... - Otto

A high deductible plan effectively only covers you for catastrophes, because you're on your own for the first $5K or $10K, so all "routine crap" will be out of pocket. - Andrew C

BTW, not seeing a doctor even for routine checkups is also gambling. Good luck with that. - Andrew C

"Effectively" is not the same thing as actually. And if there was some kind of major incident, I'd still be on the hook for the $10k, which is still problematic. Basically, a high deductible means that you're getting no real coverage at all, it's not disaster coverage. - Otto

The $10k outlay doesn't sound problematic to me; you've been investing your money, right? - Andrew C

Andrew C: No, it's not. There is no actual need for "routine checkups" in a healthy human being. You'd free to disagree, but I'm just going to say you're wrong, and that is that, so there's no point in arguing it. And whether I can afford $10k or not is beside the point, it's still not the type of coverage I actually need or want. - Otto

Otto - You have a valid point that insurance is designed to cover catastrophes. It turns out that preventative medicine helps to avoid catastrophes though. So it is in the best interest of insurance companies to encourage their customers to get preventative care. One way to do that is to pay fot it. Another way to do it would be to give people discounts for getting regular checkups, just like you get discounts on auto insurance for having a good driving record. - Robert Felty

Yeah, there really is no point in arguing with you, not when you just make statements and "that is that". (Good thing cancer never starts off growing in the body for years before becoming a major problem! And that arteries don't ever get clogged before they close up entirely.) - Andrew C

Robert: Preventative medicine does help to avoid catastrophe, however, it's also far cheaper to cover your own costs there instead of relying on insurance coverage to pay for it for you. It makes no sense for insurance to cover basic care. You don't pay for gasoline with your auto insurance, do you? The fact that insurance covers basic care means added burdens to the administrative overhead, higher premiums, etc, etc. It's a bad system overall. - Otto

OK, so you want catastrophic coverage that starts from dollar 1 for accidents, but no insurance for routine procedures. I think this is a little ridiculous, but you're right, I don't think insurance companies offer that. - Andrew C

Insurance companies are actively prevented from offering it, is what you meant to say. Many state laws require certain minimum levels of coverage, so the plan I want/need is unavailable to me because of over-regulation. - Otto

Preventative care isn't gasoline. Food is the analogy to gasoline. And no, health care insurance doesn't pay for food. - Andrew C

@Andrew C: Okay then, if you don't like that metaphor... Does your auto insurance pay for oil changes? My point is that health care should not pay for routine stuff *unless I want it to*. I do not want it to, I'm perfectly capable of dealing with routine stuff on my own. - Otto

Otto - this is not just about you though. It is mostly about the millions of people who don't have any insurance at all right now. Also, with the oil change analogy, that is not quite right either. Standard auto insurance does not pay for vehicle failure. It pays for vehicle damage due to accidents. There probably is a small correlation between frequency of oil changes and automobile accidents, but I bet that the correlation between regular colonoscopies and advanced colon cancer is much higher. - Robert Felty

Robert: Auto insurance does indeed pay for vehicle failure, if you have comprehensive insurance. Depends on the type of failure. On the other hand, you can get liability insurance to only pay for accidents caused by you, if you so want. You have choice of what to get. And I'd venture to bet that the correlation between colonoscopies and colon cancer is indeed quite high, but in the... more... - Otto

Otto - my dad gets regular colonoscopies, because he has diverticulosis, and I am not ready for him to die just yet. - Robert Felty

Robert: He has a medical condition. I'd hardly call that "routine maintenance", sort of thing. - Otto

Sure. The reason why health insurance companies don't offer plans like that are completely because all 50 states have strict mandates, and certainly not because the health insurance companies don't think they're profitable and would prefer that you pay for more coverage. Of course it's always the government's fault, and never the invisible hand's. - Victor Ganata

Victor: In this case, what I said was in fact true. All 50 states and even the federal government have tons of regulations on the health insurance industry. Rates, premiums, etc.. these are all fixed by the individual states. The insurance companies have to work within a very narrow window of guidelines, sort of thing. This is one reason that so many of them have tried hard to deny... more... - Otto

The only regulation I see that applies to all 50 states is that insurance companies have to be solvent, capable of paying claims, and able to process claims in timely fashion. Fact is, the insurance companies have continued to make record profits despite all these regulations, so I'm not exactly going to cry them a river. - Victor Ganata

Switzerland gets by with strict regulation... Admittedly, I doubt they have the kind of catastrophe-only plans you like, but (1) the insurers there make it work, and (2) they achieve better coverage and outcomes than the current US system does. - Andrew C

@Brad Nickel - The right to life does not imply the right to the labor and property of other individuals. Medicine is exactly that: the products and services of tremendously skilled individuals. To claim by right their labor and products is the moral equivalent of slavery. - Crutis

I just can't get over the rhetoric. It truly makes me laugh outloud. Slave labor. It's not worthy of further debate. - Brad Nickel from email

It's hardly slavery when health care professionals take oaths to serve society in exchange for the position of privilege it puts them in. And they provide care that isn't fully compensated quite frequently: it's part and parcel of many of the contracts they sign with insurance companies. Are you going to call that slavery too? - Victor Ganata

@Victor, no I call it what it is: charity. Charity should be encouraged. @Brad, when you stop laughing maybe you can refute the right of a physician to contract with a patient without government interference. Until then the only laughable idea is the logical conclusion of your argument that physicians could be imprisoned unless they run their businesses for free or at a loss. - Crutis

It is impossible to be a physician without government interference, since license to practice is issued by the state. I'm not sure I'd want it otherwise, personally. Anyway, once again we're straying from the topic at hand: there's nothing in HR 3200 that says you have to accept gov't issued insurance, anymore than you have to accept Medicare or Medicaid. It will still be quite possible to have a nice little boutique practice without getting a paycheck from the gov't. - Victor Ganata

I do medical billing for a nursing home. Those of you who are in favor of a public option obviously don't understand Medicare and Medicaid. We couldn't take care of anybody if we had to rely only on what the government pays. And doctors didn't go to school for all those years and incur all that debt just to be civil servants with tons of red tape and poor compensation. There will be a huge shortage of doctors within a decade. If the bill passes the Senate, we're in for a true disaster. - Dawn

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: I Am A Savage- I wish the same people who loudly speak out... - http://savagemike.tumblr.com/post...

October 28 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"i couldn't agree more without spraining something." - (dot)lizard kelly

Victor Ganata

Screw you people who think that just because I'm going to get an increasing amount of my income from the government should the public option pass, I'm suddenly going to become a shitty doctor.

October 27 - Comment - Like - Share

Spidra Webster, Rodfather, John (a.k.a. dendroica) and 9 other people liked this

Are you promising that you won't? :) - Cristo

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If I become a shitty doctor, I guarantee it's not going to be because of the marginal increase in the proportion of payments I get from the government. - Victor Ganata

They don't "think" that, per se. They "parrot" that because an insurance company lobbyist went on Fox News disguised as an expert and told them what to say. The insurance company lobbyist doesn't think that either, it's just a convenient fiction to scare the masses. - (dot)lizard kelly

Isn't "gastroenterologist" the preferred term? - Jim Norris

LOL - Victor Ganata

"There's a lot of money in shit" -- The Fat Man, senior resident from The House of God by Samuel Shem http://www.amazon.com/House-G... - Victor Ganata

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: I Am A Savage- Things I Have Not Said On Facebook - http://savagemike.tumblr.com/post...

October 25 from Disqus - Comment - Like - Share

"i literally LOL'd. all the things i wish i could say, but am too nice ..." - (dot)lizard kelly

(dot)lizard kelly

October 24 from Flickr - Comment - Like - Share

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so when is halloween? Pardon my ignorance. I don't celebrate any holidays (not even my birthday!) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

next saterday - chaz2b

yep. saturday. it's also my son-in-law's birthday :) and an awesome excuse to eat candy and get drunk, not that i need an excuse ... - (dot)lizard kelly

See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

#qotd http://bit.ly/4pxKGg "You know it's a good abstract photograph when you have no idea what you're looking at." - Flickr:84124C - http://www.flickr.com/photos...

October 24 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

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"You know it's a good abstract photograph when you have no idea what you're looking at." - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML from Bookmarklet

amazing collection - such delicious eye candy :) - (dot)lizard kelly

@(dot)lizard kelly thanks for appreciating it :D - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

See-ming Lee 李思明 SML to See-ming's feed, Funny Funny, Funny Pics and Videos

humans can be such assholes. - lizards.me http://bit.ly/2Ayl2y #funny #wtf - http://lizards.me/humans-...

October 23 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

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Looks quite photo-shopped to me - Craig Eddy

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@CE hehe can't tell. I'll ask the author.. - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

via (dot)lizard kelly http://friendfeed.com/dotliza... - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

I do not know - posted to posterous from http://www.dvorak.org/blog... here, where they seem to be taking it quite seriously :) - (dot)lizard kelly

Victor Ganata

Can atheism be considered a religion? Is Taoism considered a religion?

October 22 - Comment - Like - Share

Rob Haas, Kol Tregaskes, Maitani and 23 other people liked this

Yes...null is still part of a set. For instance, if I ask how many beans am I holding and my hand is empty, I am holding no beans, but I am still holding an amount of beans...it just happens that this amount is 0. We are not Romans with no concept of 0. - Alex Scoble

282 more comments

Atheism is a religion, but agnosticism is not. :) - Cristo

I don't think Taoism is a religion, unless there's a church. - Rodfather

Believing that we don't have the answers and never will is still believing in something, Chris. - Alex Scoble

The empty set is part of every set! For some reason, in this context, that basic mathematical statement blows my mind. - Victor Ganata

I disagree with Alex but that, of course, is the problem in a nutshell. Nobody has the same definition of anything in the world of religious arguments; everything is tainted with belief or lack thereof and we're all hearing what we want to hear and never getting across what we really mean because the other side is doing the same. Pointless. But fun too with the right people. - Mark H

You have to be agnostic about something, don't you? - Victor Ganata

Religion is the belief that you survive your own death. I think that the reason religious people want to classify atheism as a religion is that they have a lingering feeling they are on shaky ground. - Eivind

Victor: Sure, that just means "without knowledge". - Eivind

I'd say atheism is more of an ideological viewpoint than a religion... - Martin Bryant

It's not pointless, though, Mark. People use this issue to put a wedge between Atheists, Agnostics and their 1st amendment rights (freedom of religion)...so it's of critical importance that we don't let people go around thinking that Atheism and Agnosticism aren't religions. - Alex Scoble

I believe that I survive my own death...The atoms and molecules that make up my body will be around as long as the universe is. - Alex Scoble

Survive in what way? In both Taoism and modern physics, it's believed that your energy/your atoms persist beyond death. Is modern physics a religion? - Victor Ganata

As with any philosophical discussion, it's important to define terms first... "A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...] - LogEx

Argh, you need to be conscoius and aware that you have transcended into something else. (I'm sure I didn't make that bullet proof.) - Eivind

Alex, I believe in lots of things. That doesn't make them religions. - Cristo

"Taoism" doesn't mean one thing, especially in the West. The traditional alchemical practices and others I've heard of sound a lot more like a religion than what I "practice" which is more of a philosophy (or to be more specific the focused cultivation of certain brain states). And what LogEx said. - Lo

Is Yoga a religion? - Rodfather

No, but Hinduism is. - Cristo

Eivind, so from what I know about Taoism, you don't survive as a distinct conscious entity after you die. Would you consider it a religion? - Victor Ganata

People believe that UFOs will visit the Earth and they worship these aliens as if they are gods coming to save us...is that a religion? - Alex Scoble

Alex, yes. - Cristo

Victor, from what little I know I think Taoism is somewhere between philosophy and religion depending on your take on it. - Eivind

If that's a religion than any belief SYSTEM is a religion...Atheism and Agnosticism are belief systems AKA religions. - Alex Scoble

What are the rituals ("narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices")? - LogEx

I'd love to get involved with this, but it's been exhuasted after one of these every day since sunday. I view Atheism as a religion, depending on the definitions of religion, belief, and atheism that you have changes it, but it's all semantics. ^^ I follow those, thought processes. LogEx, some definitions of religion don't require rituals, narratives, or practices, just beliefs. - Jimminy Fuller

Agnosticism doesn't necessarily mean you will never know, just that you don't right now. I can't see how this is a religion anymore than Science is a religion. - Cristo

Eivind, Taoism also prizes (from what I've read) skepticism very highly. As does Buddhism to a certain extent. If you're called a religion but say nothing that conflicts with science and/or atheism, I approve. - Lo

"Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, spiritual beings, or even ultimate reality — are unknown or, in some forms of agnosticism, unknowable. It is not a religious declaration in itself, and an agnostic may also be a theist or an atheist." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Cristo

Alex, do you want atheism to be a religion? If so I can just exchange the word with "superstition" to describe what I mean when I say religion. - Eivind

Chris, but you have to be agnostic about some religion, don't you? Or maybe I've misused the term, and it's just the philosophical state of not being sure of knowing? - Victor Ganata

I don't consider either a religion. There should be a option of None. Taoism is more of a teaching from my understanding. - Uncle CW™

No, atheism is not religion. We aren't aligned with some central idea. Look at the root of the word 'religion'. - Kamilah Gill from email

I still haven't heard any alternate definitions. If leap of faith is the only criteria, then every act of living is a religion. - LogEx

This "null is still part of a set" argument bugs me deep inside. By this definition everything is everything. "Is the Earth a cat?" "Yes, since it's not a cat it is arguably a cat." - Mark H

+1 Mark - Eivind

Kamilah we are aligned with one central idea, there is no higher being. - Jimminy Fuller

Victor, in general you are agnostic about the existence of God or gods or whether someone was a representative or was God, such as Jesus. In practice the term is used to apply to anything that you aren't sure of. E.g. You could be agnostic about time travel. - Cristo

And then there's Apatheism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - LogEx

No, Earth is not a subset of cats...clearly the Earth is NOT a cat...but zero cats is a subset of cats. Big difference there. Then again since when has religion ever been about logic for most people? It's all about what their preacher/pastor/pope/etc. tells them. When it comes down to it, I have just as much right to my 2nd amendment rights to be left alone for my beliefs (or lack... more... - Alex Scoble

Believe what you want, but that does not mean that you can use those beliefs to deny me employment, or a home loan or anything else that is protected under the 1st amendment. - Alex Scoble

1st Amendment. - LogEx

Is it? Oops...my bad. - Alex Scoble

LOL. Is owning guns considered a religion? :D - Victor Ganata

I bet some people would in fact consider it to be so. - Alex Scoble

++ Mark - Lo

Comments edited for accuracy. - Alex Scoble

Mark, don't blame me, blame the mathematicians. :D According to set theory, ∅ ⊆ A where A is any set. - Victor Ganata

Alex: Okay, I was being facetious (I'm like that; it's very annoying) and I do understand your reasoning. It just seems that there's no way for atheists to win this argument under your definitions. Nobody can ever technically be non-religious since they'll be part of the not religious "religious" set and therefore you can just claim they're religious in spite of their own personal definition. Or can someone be non-religious according to the null set definition? - Mark H

Of course they can be non-religious, but that would still put them in a protected class according to the first amendment as the null is still a member of the set of religion. By saying that null is not part of the set, people are using that as an excuse to deny Atheists, Agnostics, etc. of their 1st amendment rights and that just ain't right. - Alex Scoble

Glad we got that cleared up. I thought Alex might shoot someone. ;) - Cristo

The day's not over yet, Chris. :) - Alex Scoble

Chris, he's planning on shooting people later tonight. - Jimminy Fuller

But you know what, since people insist on my having a religion in order to be part of the protected classes under the 1st amendment, I now worship the Cat God. She requires that I play video games for at least 2 hours every day. When I die I go to Cat God nirvana and become one of the Cat God's favorite catnip toys to be batted around for endless pleasure. The fact that I obey and play... more... - Alex Scoble

Alex, agnosticism is not a religion, it's a philosophy. I thought we covered that. You can be both agnostic and atheist, or agnostic and believe in a religion. - Cristo

You can't be an agnostic and atheist...Atheists believe there is no god. Period. Agnostics believe that you can't prove one way or the other that a god exists. They are the mu state of religious thought. Indeterminant. Neither on nor off. Once you pick a state you cease to be Agnostic. Because I now worship Cat God, I am no longer Agnostic, so stop infringing on my 1st amendment rights. - Alex Scoble

Alex: I think half the problem with this particular twist on this argument is you've been arguing from a U.S.-technicality-for-legal-reasons point-of-view and I haven't. I get what you're saying and I accept and approve of the result you're going for though. For some reason it reminds me of the Catholic church deciding that beaver was a fish in the 17th century so it could be eaten on a... more... - Mark H

Yep, living in the US and having people tell me that it's OK that the dollar bill says "In God We Trust" because it doesn't infringe on my 1st amendment rights because Atheism and Agnosticism aren't protected because it doesn't say "freedom from religion". But that doesn't matter now since I have been reborn as a faithful servant of Cat God. - Alex Scoble

Alex you can worship whatever you want, but that won't making not knowing if what you worship is true a religion, just as not having proof that there is no God is a religion. - Cristo

Ok, maybe. But it's not like we all do the same things. We are not organized - Kamilah Gill from email

We need to amend the amendment. Not twist ourselves to fit. I want nothing to do with religion. - Kamilah Gill from email

Alex: Agnosticism is an epistemological position. One is still either a theist or not with respect to some deity. - Christopher A Carr

Kamilah, there are organized religions, with their fancy churches, idols, histories, and practices, and then there is the unorganized religions, where you are free to your interpretations and practices, no specific body of history that has to be relied on as fact, no idol, and doesn't need a building or congregation to be held true. Atheism, Buddhism, and Taoism exist in the latter group, there is nothing wrong with religion. - Jimminy Fuller

You can't say "I don't know what to believe" in one hand (Agnosticism) and then say that you believe in god on the other (Theism)...If you are on or off you aren't mu. - Alex Scoble

Can it be a religion if you don't have to believe in any deities? Is it really just a binary position? - Victor Ganata

Alex: Agnosticism isn't "I don't know what to believe." It's a stance on what's knowable. - Christopher A Carr

Are there any agnostic atheists in da hizzy? - Victor Ganata

Then you and I see it very differently and will have to agree to disagree on the subject. - Alex Scoble

Alex, like Christopher said, you lean one way or the other, towards Theistic beliefs or Atheistic Beliefs, but you aren't willing to commit fully. - Jimminy Fuller

*Raises hand* Also a Buddhist practitioner - Jimminy Fuller

So, I guess the question is: is atheism strictly about the non-existence of a deity (or deities)? Or must you also be non-religious/non-spiritual? - Victor Ganata

+Mark - Kamilah Gill from email

I'm not a theist with respect to the God of Abraham. In principle, though, because this deity is defined as non-material and outside of the natural world, I'm rather forced to hold an agnostic position as to whether we can be certain of its existence. But so what. I'm forced to hold the same position as regards Marduk and Odin, and the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster... - Christopher A Carr

That one can't disprove the existence of a thing on no way makes the thing as likely to exist as not. - Christopher A Carr

Victor, it's purely the non-existence of deities, those that fall into the more radical and outspoken Atheist groups, are against religion also. - Jimminy Fuller

I (and this is Christopher Hitchens' position as well) also consider myself something of a God of Abraham anti-theist, in that I hope that Yahweh doesn't exist. I prefer not to be a slave to a dictator of that sort. - Christopher A Carr

See what Mark just said about the fish - Kamilah Gill from email

Depends on whether you believe there is no god, or whether you do not believe in a god or gods. One is a belief, and possibly a form of religion, since there is no scientific proof of the non-existance of a god or gods. However, if you simply don't believe there is a god, that's not a religion, since it's not a belief -- it's the lack of a belief. - (dot)lizard kelly

Not collecting stamps isn't a hobby. - Christopher A Carr

You can have beliefs without a religious framework - Mo Kargas

It's hard for me to see how believing that God does not exist is not a belief, when you can't empirically prove that God does not exist (anymore than you can prove that God does exist), but I guess it really is about how you define things. - Victor Ganata

Victor: Is you lack of belief in Thor a religious belief? What "god" are you talking about? - Christopher A Carr

Collecting and Believing are quite different - collections are physical things, beliefs are abstract. If you actively believe there IS NO GOD, then you have a belief system, and it is based in something other than provable fact. if you neither believe nor disbelieve based on an absence of proof, that is not a belief. - (dot)lizard kelly

I believe that the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and leprechauns do not exist as well. I put them on the same level as god. - Brian Sullivan

I still think that disbelief in something that can't be proven is still a belief about something that can't be proven. We're back to the empty set thing again :D - Victor Ganata

Christopher: yes, any god. There's no empirical evidence in the non-existence of Thor, either. - Victor Ganata

There is compelling evidence to suggest the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and leprechauns do not exist, however, due to the incredibly challenging nature of proving a negative, there is no definitive proof. I do not believe they don't exist. I just don't believe that they do. - (dot)lizard kelly

Lizard: There's compelling evidence that the semitic deity Yahweh, as described in the Bible, also does not exist. I can't prove that it doesn't, but that in no way makes it as likely to exist as not. - Christopher A Carr

OK, there is far more evidence that the tooth fairy and Santa Claus don't exist, at least not in the forms that we tell children about. As for leprechauns and any particular pantheon of gods, I don't think there's any way to prove they don't exist. - Victor Ganata

Based on the evidence available to me, I've concluded that Yahweh doesn't exist. The fact that I can't absolutely prove that he doesn't just isn't all that relevant or interesting, because one also can't prove that faeries and the skunk ape don't exist. "..but there's no way to *prove* god [again, which god?] doesn't exist..." is a big fat "so what?" Coming to the conclusion that Loki doesn't exist in no way amounts to a belief consistent with belonging to a religion. - Christopher A Carr

Unless not believing that some deity is real instantly causes a new religion to come into existence, in which case I belong to many thousands of religions. - Christopher A Carr

It's not that it makes you belong to a particular religion. But it's still a religious question. So it's hard for me to believe that a system of beliefs that is devoted to religious questions is not itself a religion. - Victor Ganata

I suppose you can broaden "religion" to encompass anything you like. Do you believe that Tiamat exists? - Christopher A Carr

For those who want Taoism with the legal protections of a church in the US, consider the new Dude-ist movement: http://www.dudeism.com/ Also, Jimminy - I like the cut of your jib! - Lo

No, I don't believe in the existence of Tiamat or Marduk. I realize that it's probably a logical fallacy to believe so, but surely you can see why I might confuse a system of beliefs devoted to religious questions and issues as itself being a religion? - Victor Ganata

Based on the evidence available to me, I do not believe in the existence of a god or gods. However I would not go so far as to say that I believe they do not exist, because in doing so I would be doing the same thing as countless religions do (and I disagree with) -- stating that everyone else is wrong, and I and those who believe what I do, are the only ones right. - (dot)lizard kelly

How do you define "religious questions and issues" ? - Brian Sullivan

I would say that the existence or non-existence of God is a religious question/issue. - Victor Ganata

It could also be a logical and/or philosophical question / issue. Debating the validity of various religious beliefs doesn't have to be a religious discussion, any more than debating the validity of what Fox News says is a discussion about journalism :) - (dot)lizard kelly

Yeah, they can totally lick themselves in places we can't. No fair! - (dot)lizard kelly

Oh boy, I'm late to this party but atheism is certainly not a religion. That's the whole point. It's not even a real "-ism". Unless you think not believing in Santa Claus needs to be called "aclausism". I'm only an "atheist" only because it's easier than being a "ithinkyourreligionisinsaneandyoushouldreallykeepittoyourselfistsoidon'thavetotellyousotoyourface" - cdogzilla

But why is it OK for an atheist to tell someone to their face that they're insane, but a Christian fundamentalist can't rant and rave and try to convert you? Myself, I'm all for STFU, I don't care what you believe or disbelieve in if it doesn't have any immediate physical consequences. - Victor Ganata

Chris, there are atheists that fall into that group that you described, as the only reason you're an atheist. You might want to look into it and the fact that you used an illogical statement to back up a religion based on human logic. - Jimminy Fuller

@Victor. Not that they are insane. Most religious people aren't. I think atheists are better off leaving religion to the religious -- until the religion infringes on their freedoms. Keep it out of the schools, out of government, don't ask me to pretend I respect it, and there's nothing more that needs to be said about it. My point was I won't tell you what I think of your religion if you don't ask me too. So it's not okay for a zealot to get in my face. - cdogzilla

@Jiminy that's the only reason I identify myself as an atheist. The reasons I'm not a theist I suspect are the same ones you are referring to. - cdogzilla

Chris, I don't understand that statement, you just made, but the new revolution in Atheism is the exact opposite of what you don't want to be classified as, the "ithinkyourreligionisinsane" "butimgoingtoletyouknowthatyourestupidandillogicalnowtoyourfaceorbehindyourback" You might want to look into that before you claim that as your only reason to be an Atheist, here is an article to read. http://www.nytimes.com/2009... - Jimminy Fuller

Victor: "I would say that the existence or non-existence of God is a religious question/issue." Whether or not some particular intelligent agent is responsible for the existence of the universe is not *only* a "religious question/issue." Go down the list of deities; each one either really exists, or it doesn't. - Christopher A Carr

To be fair, the existence/non-existence of Yahweh, Set, Quetzalcoatl, Quaoar, Eris, or Cthulhu can also be considered philosophical questions. What they aren't are scientific questions, since it's probably impossible to prove whether or not they exist. - Victor Ganata

People who believe in Yahweh make empirical claims. Yahweh either created the Earth, or he didn't. He either fathered himself or he didn't. - Christopher A Carr

Science perhaps ought not have much concern with deism or pantheism, but theism is a different matter. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, certainly, there are some who take the Bible literally, but, realistically, they're a minority. A lot of Catholics I know don't think there is any inconsistency between the metaphors employed in Genesis and the physical creation of the Universe as described by the Big Bang. And it's simply not possible to test whether or not there was an omniscient/omnipotent entity that... more... - Victor Ganata

@Jimminy, I read the article, but I'm not sure what point you're making? Are you saying logic is a religion? That using logic makes you religious? Atheism is not a religion based on logic. Look, I don't believe in magical pixies. So I'm an apixieist, too. Does that mean apixieism is a religion? I don't believe in pixies for the same reason I don't believe in Thor, there's no good reason to believe in either. - cdogzilla

Chris, it seems like the point of the article is that some atheists do practice it like a religion. - Victor Ganata

Chris: But, but, the fact that you would be interested in what is only a religious question makes you religious. ;-) Pfft. - Christopher A Carr

OK, so the point of my OP is that if Taoism is a religion, I don't understand why atheism isn't a religion, too. But if Taoism is a philosophy, not a religion, then I can understand why atheism isn't a religion. - Victor Ganata

Chris, Atheists pride themselves on being more logical than the the religious, but the remark you made was because of something that Atheists also perform, which is makes that an illogical reason to be an Atheist. I consider any religious view to be a religion, which includes the disbelief of deities or the belief there are no dieties, is a religion. - Jimminy Fuller

So. Is Taoism a religion? - Victor Ganata

Here we go again. Didn't we have this discussion before? By definition, atheism is not a religion. Of course, Alex likes to make up definitions to fit his opinions. We all got used to that, ;) - Alejandro

Jimminy: Do *you* believe in Thor? - Christopher A Carr

Victor: Which Taoism are you talking about? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: just what you get from the Tao Te Ching. From what I remember, there are no mention of any deities, and nothing that seems to contravene physical law. - Victor Ganata

As an Atheist, Atheism is my religious choice, and thus it is my religion, it is the belief structure by which I live. No I don't believe in Thor, I don't believe in any of the Norse Gods, why do we keep bringing this up. - Jimminy Fuller

Which sense of the polysemous "religion" are you using? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, by your definition of religion, does Taoism as described by the Tao Te Ching constitute a religion? - Victor Ganata

Stop it, you guys! :p Or I'll have to refer you all to that XKCD about "I can't get off of the computer right now. Someone on the internet is wrong!" Thinking of that is what made me bow out. - Kamilah Gill

LOL, Kamilah. I don't think anyone is necessarily wrong here. I'm just curious what people think. Most discussions of theism versus atheism always seem to neglect Eastern philosophies/religions. It wasn't until this discussion that I came across the idea of being an atheist (in the sense that you don't believe in supreme deity) but still believing in a spiritual tradition. Since there are a lot of avowed atheists on FF, I was wondering if they thought that was valid. - Victor Ganata

Jimminy: Not subscribing to any religious tenet does not a religion make, unless you've your own special definition of the term. Victor: I would say it falls a bit short of being a religion -- more a philosophical school. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, so in your definition of religion, theism is mandatory? Or is there another reason why Taoism falls short of being a religion? - Victor Ganata

I guess it depends on what "definition" of atheism we're using. I do not believe that God exists. I believe that God does not exist. Subtle but crucial difference. Christopher et al seems to be arguing the former, while Victor et al seem to be using the latter. I subscribe to the former view. Also, it is entirely possible to be a theist and agnostic. - Chieze Okoye

Chieze, but can you be an atheist and spiritual? I still think that disbelief is equivalent to belief, in the same way that negative numbers and positive numbers are all still numbers, but I guess that's a matter of taste. - Victor Ganata

Victor: What does "spiritual" mean? - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: heh, that's a good question. I guess mostly the kinds of things that the NY Times article Jimminy linked to mentions. Atheistic spiritualism does seem to fit Taoism in a way. - Victor Ganata

Victor: RE: Taoism -- On second thought, Taoism is so interwoven with Chinese folk religion and has had so many different manifestations, and is, at its core, concerned enough with metaphysical explanations, that I can't say I'm exactly sure what it is. - Christopher A Carr

see, that's my thing. I think that "belief" is a willful act. If I don't think that one not believing in the existence of something automatically equals the belief in its non-existence. For instance, if one has never concerned oneself with religion and whether or not God exists then that's a different idea than someone who's thought and considered and came to the conclusion (or belief) that God doesn't exist. - Chieze Okoye

Victor: Read the article. Still have no idea what you mean by "spiritual." - Christopher A Carr

Which does lead me to a more nit-picky question. Most atheists I've met seem to specifically disbelieve in the Christian God. Is it necessary to disbelieve in a supreme being? If you specifically disbelieved in Odin and Thor, would that make you an atheist? Are ghosts, ancestors, or spirits of nature considered deities? - Victor Ganata

I'm in disbelief that God or Gods exist = I cannot believe that God or Gods exist = Agnosticism :: I believe there to be no god or gods = Atheism. Yet the most radical of "Atheists" prefer the first, because it doesn't label them as a religion. Since Christopher, would like to know what meaning of religion I use, "Our ideological and traditional heritage." It being an ideology because... more... - Jimminy Fuller

But that's just beliefs. I still don't think, even given that someone can believe in no God, that that behavior constitutes a religion. The ritualistic part of the definition is critical and being conveniently ignored in this discussion. - Chieze Okoye

Yeah, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say by "spirituality", Christopher. I have to think about it some mroe. - Victor Ganata

and Victor, to your earlier question, I do think that one can be atheistic and spiritual. "I believe that there is no all- or super-powerful diety or dieties, but I believe that there are metaphysical forces that we don't understand" seems perfectly fine to me. - Chieze Okoye

Chieze, I guess I don't think that ritual is necessary for religion but I suppose the problem is that we all have such varying definitions of religion. - Victor Ganata

yes, that's definitely true. - Chieze Okoye

Chieze: Why would you call elements of the universe not yet understood "spiritual?" - Christopher A Carr

Chieze, thanks! That's the word I'm looking for. Metaphysical. That's what I'm mean by "spiritual." - Victor Ganata

Christopher, hmm, good question, but your use of yet is elucidating. Let me get back to you in a second. - Chieze Okoye

Jimminy: I'm not persuaded by the arguments for theism = atheism (that's me). It is impossible to prove that some entity -- provided it is defined as existing outside the natural order -- does or does not exist = agnosticism. (that's also me). Jimminy, your usage of "agnosticism" is somewhat idiosyncratic. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, I guess I would use the word metaphysics not to describe physical processes not yet understood, but to describe knowledge or experiences that will always lie beyond the auspices of experimental science. - Victor Ganata

Ok, here's my thinking: I don't know that the metaphysical forces in "spirituality" are something that can be known. Partly because I think most of the time they are defined as being unprovable by human observable means. It's just a term that I'm using as shorthand to refer to those set of beliefs. All I was saying in that previous statement was that it's not really hard for me to... more... - Chieze Okoye

Or to put it another way, can you be an atheist, but still believe in UFOs or ghosts? - Victor Ganata

Victor: I'm a naturalist. I don't think there's anything in the universe that will "always lie beyond the auspices of experimental science" for any reason other than some upper limit on human intellect. All real phenomena are part of the natural order. "Super-natural" is to me a meaningless term. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, when did I say theism = atheism? The first point doesn't lend comparison doesn't lend itself to Atheism, purely agnostic views, to be an Atheist you would have to agree on the belief that deities do not exist. However Atheism is a religion based on the ideological factors that come with it influence my actions. - Jimminy Fuller

Jimminy: You miss-parsed the passage. Also, I didn't attribute it to you. - Christopher A Carr

Jimminy (and others), you're confusing being "religious about" atheism with being "religious". Can I be "religious about" vegetarianism? If so, am I being "religious"? - Edward Zwart

Jimminy: "However Atheism is a religion based on the ideological factors that come with it influence my actions." Ethical systems are religions, then? "Atheism" isn't even an ethical system. - Christopher A Carr

This is why the "rituals" and "belief in existence of a god or gods" are critical parts to the functional definition of the word "religion." Anything else rapidly becomes the set of all beliefs and all systems. - Chieze Okoye

Christopher: do you believe it's physically possible to observe any phenomena preceding the Big Bang? Or to see beyond the light horizon that's continuing to recede because of the expansion of dark energy? Or even to see inside the event horizon of a black hole? There are plenty of things that can't be tested experimentally. - Victor Ganata

Victor: Those are natural, more-or-less understood phenomena. I didn't say that humans can in principle do anything or know everything. In other words, we can't have access to all information in the universe, but there are comprehensible (at least to something) reason why that's the case -- natural reasons. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher: well, so that's what I mean by metaphysical--things that lie beyond the information that we can access. How can something that can't be observed, even indirectly, be considered comprehensible though? - Victor Ganata

Exactly [edit] oops, misread that last sentence, i take it back! - Edward Zwart

Humans needn't be able to access information about some phenomena for it to be natural. - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, with the choice of Atheism, you are deeming that their are no other planes you will see, you will not be reincarnated into heaven nor earth, thus you must choose your actions wisely. Those that will not result in effects that reduce ones life. With Atheism comes the ideological effects of preserving oneself, and embracing every moment one has, because there are no second chances. - Jimminy Fuller

If ghosts are "real," then they are non super-natural. - Christopher A Carr

Jimminy: "With Atheism comes the ideological effects of preserving oneself, and embracing every moment one has, because there are no second chances." Not necessarily. - Christopher A Carr

Seeing it as a choice is odd to me... - Edward Zwart

If you practice something, or believe in any god, then you are not an atheist, but a follower of a belief. On the other hand atheism is a belief too, but unlike religion it is not a "system" If somebody goes out and starts to build atheist churches, decide the holy day of the week, then it becomes a belief system, aka religion. - \(*_*)/

Christopher, "not necessarily" you mean there are other lives? - Jimminy Fuller

OK, I see what you mean. So we can't really rule out super-powerful non-corporeal hyperintelligences as being supernatural either. - Victor Ganata

Jimminy, that's another misparse of what Christopher is saying. You're saying that this belief MUST CAUSE this reaction. He's saying that that "MUST CAUSE" you threw in there is not necessarily the case. I can believe in no God and no after life and no whatever else, and be perfectly fine with wasting my life away. - Chieze Okoye

No, Jimminy -- I mean your conclusion doesn't logically follow from your premises. Not believing in a deity doesn't not oblige me to "embrace every moment." - Christopher A Carr

Victor: Correct. There may be weakly-"god-like" hyper-intelligences out there. If there are, they are natural. - Christopher A Carr

But back to the question: can you be an atheist and still believe in ghosts and UFOs? - Victor Ganata

Victor: yes, I think so myself. - Chieze Okoye

Atheism, exists on a quantum plane then, it is a religion and it is not a religion. Because for me it has brought along ideological changes, and for you it has not. The way I've experienced it is a religion, for you it is not. - Jimminy Fuller

Bringing about "ideological changes" makes things a religion? Then I suppose Maoism is a religion. - Christopher A Carr

I think that NY Times article certainly demonstrates that some atheists believe that atheism can fulfill the same roles as religion, although I guess this doesn't mean it actually is one. - Victor Ganata

@Victor, I think the answer to your question is yes. It's possible, and common, for humans to hold 2 apparently contradictory positions at once. It's not dissimilar to a scientist who is also religious. - Edward Zwart

Victor: I don't see why not. They may be convinced that "UFOs" are human-piloted vessels from the future, and they may think that we just haven't figured out what ghosts are yet...if they're both an atheist and a naturalist. But I suppose there exist atheists that aren't particularly naturalists. - Christopher A Carr

@Jimminy: Is Democracy a religion? How about the belief in age seniority? Again, disconnecting the word "religion" from the specific belief of a god or gods and having a set of rituals that you follow along with that belief isn't doing any favors because the argument reduces to "any set of beliefs at all is a religion" which is a silly statement. - Chieze Okoye

Edward, I guess I don't see either example as being contradictory :D - Victor Ganata

Yeah, I do, but I'm not trying to prove that they are... Pick any two contradictory thoughts then. Can a person hold contradictory beliefs? I think we see it all the time. - Edward Zwart

I guess my question was, more generally, as long as you don't believe in a supreme deity, can you believe in other supernatural phenomenon and still be an atheist? Or does believe in such things nullify your status as an atheist? Like, do you get excommunicated from the non-church of atheism? :D Or do other atheists laugh and point whenever they see you? - Victor Ganata

Great conversation guys, but I have to go home now. Later. - Chieze Okoye

Chieze, a belief that leads to ideological factors is what I was getting at, of course any belief itself isn't a religion, it has to result in some set of actions based around that belief. Which Atheism has done for me. - Jimminy Fuller

I can be an atheist and believe that there is life on other planets that may have greater intelligence of space travel than humans. So yes, an Atheist can believe in UFOs. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

However, one that strongly believes in the Bible cannot as it disrupts a major core in the belief that man was created in his image. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Jimminy: Any belief that results in "some set of actions based around that belief" is a religion. Is the perception that one needs to urinate, a religion? - Christopher A Carr

@Victor, Christopher has already amply addressed supernatural versus not-yet-understood... As far as finding people who want to join the atheist camp but still cling to some pretty indefensible positions, check out the Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists, & the Non Religious lending group on http://www.kiva.org. I've always thought that name was awesome because it's so inclusive, but it also has its drawbacks (not too many people don't think of themselves as a freethinker!). - Edward Zwart

Manielse, not bible aspect isn't necessarily true, it just depends on the interpretation, there is a quote I found in a text a few years ago which actually makes it a valid point that man was created in his image. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - -- -- - - - - -- " God is the creator, the omnipotent controller of our plane. Man as a whole shall be creators with omnipotent rule over... more... - Jimminy Fuller

Isn't it obvious that man created god? - Edward Zwart

Christopher, "urinate a religion"? - Jimminy Fuller

I know the Catholic church burned Giordano Bruno at the stake for his theory of many worlds, but I think the Vatican finally apologized for that a few years ago. :D - Victor Ganata

Edward, exactly my point, Manielse said that one who strongly believes the Bible cannot be an Atheist, because it disrupts the belief that man was created in "his" image. Not exactly if he also believes that. - Jimminy Fuller

Jimminy: Are we still having a hard time parsing English? - Christopher A Carr

I would have thought that "one who strongly believes the Bible cannot be an Atheist" would also be obvious. - Edward Zwart

Edward, well what I got from Christopher's response is that there isn't anything that's supernatural. If any of those phenomena are real, then it's going to be completely natural. But what if you believe in fairies or elves? Zombies or vampires? Unicorns and centaurs? Things that clearly cannot be natural, at least according to the laws of physics as they apply to the observable universe. Is such a person still an atheist so long as they don't believe in a supreme being? - Victor Ganata

Is someone who professes to be a vegan but hunts still a vegan? At that point, it's just a definitional problem, and extremely boring. - Edward Zwart

Christopher, the statement made no sense, what so ever, I'm sorry you're apparently having a hard time writing English statements that make sense, could you please explain how one sucks a fuck also? - Jimminy Fuller

Yes, please explain that Christopher! - Edward Zwart

Edward, well, yeah, that's what I'm getting at. What's the definition of an atheist? Is it simply the disbelief in a supreme deity, or does being an atheist also require you to eschew all things supernatural? Clearly, the definition of being a vegan requires that you not kill animals. - Victor Ganata

Jimminy: [[Is the perception that one needs to urinate] [a religion]]? not [[Is the perception that one needs to] [urinate a religion]]? Earlier, you completely misconstrued what manielse wrote. - Christopher A Carr

Victor: No, my point before was that an Atheist cannot believe in a supernatural being from an act of God but more centered around some form of science. Though Unicorns and other examples do not exist today, mutations and cross-breeding may very well produce an Unicorn someday. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

@Victor Here's another response to your question... I think what you're driving at is that an atheist quite likely might have arrived at that position, or might describe why they are one, by appealing to a lack of evidence for the theistic stance. And there are MANY things in this world that people believe with scant evidence, like UFOs or ghosts... If one calls oneself an atheist based... more... - Edward Zwart

Jimminy: Which was in response to this: "...any belief itself isn't a religion, it has to result in some set of actions based around that belief." - Christopher A Carr

Christopher, oh, you know what, it's actually possible to parse English if you use the correct punctuation, you ommited a comma, which creates a break there. I'm sorry that you write syntactically incorrect English. - Jimminy Fuller

(Psst, Jimminy, that's a run-on sentence. You inserted a comma where you shouldn't have...) :D - Edward Zwart

I guess what I'm wondering is if atheists ever call each other out, like how religious folk brand each other as heretics. :D - Victor Ganata

Oh shit, is that what you're asking?! The answer is YES, all the time! - Edward Zwart

Jimminy: I'm happy to paste some of your half-mangled prose here, if you want to be a dick. - Christopher A Carr

LOL! Which makes me wonder again, how is atheism different from any other religion, then? :D - Victor Ganata

Ghosts is an interesting argument though as the traditional definition means that it is a type of life after death in the form of a spirit. If you believe in that type of definition of a ghost, it does question whether you believe in an after life. BUT, belief in an after life does not directly translate into the belief of a higher being. So, by definition of Atheist meaning the belief that there is no God, you still are an Atheist with a different subset of beliefs. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

So, theoretically an animist who doesn't believe in supreme deities could be an atheist. - Victor Ganata

Strictly speaking, a deist can be an atheist. - Christopher A Carr

Victor, the common characteristic that you just discovered is simply the willingness to call out others on inconsistency. That's not enough to say atheism is a religion fuck! er... - Edward Zwart

I've had it with this thread. - Christopher A Carr

I guess Victor, theoretically an animist would be that exact classification of my last post. "Animism" means simply "a belief in souls". Different views of some beliefs but both agree there is no higher power God. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Argh, please forgive the outburst. It looks so bad in print! But it's exactly what I said to myself. :) - Edward Zwart

Edward, LOL, I realize that isn't proof that atheism is a religion. I guess the point you're making is that humans still exhibit similar behaviors no matter what they believe :D - Victor Ganata

Everyone has a religion, including what we call Agnostics and Atheists. Without one's religion, it assumes that one has never thought about anything surrounding religious beliefs which I'm pretty sure everyone has (unless you are very young or have mental disorders). We as humans like to label things into groups because it's our nature to classify things together and in this case we are classifying individual beliefs into subset groupings. Therefore belief in no God is a subset grouping of religious beliefs - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Argh -- ok, maniels: "Without one's religion, it assumes that one has never thought about anything surrounding religious beliefs which I'm pretty sure everyone has (unless you are very young or have mental disorders)." Contemplating subject matter that's also contemplated by people who subscribe to some religion, does not necessarily mean that one "has a religion." - Christopher A Carr

OK Chris, what's your definition of religion? (Sorry if it's buried above somewhere) - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

From Wikipedia: A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth....It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos and human nature) which... more... - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Explain to me how anyone cannot have religion in that definition? - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Manielse, I do not "believe in no god", I simply do not believe in a god or gods. Atheism, in my case at least, is not a belief system. - (dot)lizard kelly

From wikipedia: "Atheism can be either the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities." If it is a rejection of theism (which it is in my case), that is not a religion. It's the rejection of religion. - (dot)lizard kelly

But God is only one element to one's religious belief system. That element is only a checkmark in your set of beliefs. There are other checkmarks such as belief in an after-life (most Aesthetics no but Animist yes), belief in karma, extrasensory perception (ESP), etc. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

I do not have a "belief" system - I don't think in those terms. It's a human instinct to believe in unseen forces, but unless you can express them in the form of an equation, I will not "believe" them to be true. I do not subscribe to mysticism or mythology. - (dot)lizard kelly

Ascribing a 'belief system' to a skeptic is like trying to figure out which type of fish a squirrel is. - (dot)lizard kelly

manielse: You said that (nearly) everyone has a religion because everyone has thought about things "surrounding religious beliefs." I sometimes think about class issues, so do Marxists -- but *I'm not a Marxist*. - Christopher A Carr

I wonder; is not believing in astrology a type of religion? - Christopher A Carr

Fair enough (dot)lizard. But in simple terms, you've come to the conclusion that unexplained equations are simply unexplained at this point in time but there is an explanation through science or logic that man just cannot grasp yet. So you have established a 'belief system' that a supernatural force does not exist in anywhere but in one's mind. You may not think in those terms but those are your conclusions to religion. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Chris: Now your just grouping people in a different order. Political beliefs, same argument that one must have their own collection of Political beliefs. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

I think it's very theist-centric to identify any thought process that involves the unknown as religious. It's the same argument used by creationists claiming their blind faith should be taught alongside science. - (dot)lizard kelly

Astrology was the foundation of all the ancient faiths: Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Zoroastrian, Mithraism, the Druids and the Norse gods. It's a subset. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Atheism is definitely a religion. I shall quote Brie from Desperate Housewives: "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifferent." Using the same logic, atheism is a religion, however agnosticism is not. - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

A subset of what? Wait, you mean those religions are subsets of astrology? I'm not sure what you're on about at this point. - Christopher A Carr

I think, to be more general, everyone has a set of metaphysical beliefs--ways they deal with things that don't have a well-known or easily discoverable natural answer. For a lot of people these beliefs come pre-packaged via religion. But I think atheism also fulfills this role, even if it isn't a religion. - Victor Ganata

As a native Chinese growing up in Hong Kong, I should state that Taoism is not a religion. Nor is Buddhism. Both are philosophy which does not reference a figure to be worshipped (a god). That people worship certain buddhist leaders as a god is a religion of their own, but the philosophy of how to live life itself is not a religion per se. - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

Victor: The way I deal with not understanding why the universe bothers to exist is to say "I don't know." How is that religion-like? - Christopher A Carr

Skepticism means that things which do not have a well-known or easily discoverable answer become fascinating areas of study, as long as there is some rational basis to expect, based on the current experiential data, that there is a scientific principle involved. Metaphysical beliefs fulfill my desire to understand the scientific basis for things in the same way water fulfills my need for something to breathe. - (dot)lizard kelly

Christopher, I'm not saying it's religion-like. I'm looking at it from the other end--what needs do religions fulfill? One of them is to help people answer questions they don't know the answers to. Obviously, the other approach is to keep things in abeyance, accept that you simply don't know, and wait for more data. I still think atheism have some explanatory power with regards to why the universe is the way it is. - Victor Ganata

See-ming, I read that Buddhism identifies itself as a religion, and not a philosophy. As a philosophy, it appeals to me, because there are so many delightful thought puzzles with which to explore ones own cognitive process. - (dot)lizard kelly

I'm not sure about the Agnostic is not part, maybe in the general classification sense. An Agnostic person is undecided on the issue and it's not important to them to try to answer the unknown but they still are not completely neutral on all religious topics on an individual level. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Oh, and Victor? this is an AWESOME thread, thank you for starting it. I am having so much fun. - (dot)lizard kelly

I would like to add one more example: believing in the design philosophy of Apple is not a religion, nor is liking their product designs. However, blindly following Apple for everything that they are, as well as seeing everything that Steve Jobs says is golden is a religion (or rather, a cult). As is Windows-7 trashers and perma-Microsoft hating. that's a religion :) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

Yes, it's a great thread, thank you! - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

As an example of things metaphysics helps people cope with, probably one of the first "hard" questions kids face is mortality. It's not something we have an instinctual knowledge about. Most religions have pat answers for it. But it's also something that atheism seems to be able to answer: your consciousness disintegrates, your body decays, and that's all there is, there ain't no mo'... more... - Victor Ganata

@(dot)lizard.kelly I believe that modern Buddhism (or perhaps the majority of people practicing Buddhism these days) do worship a central figure Siddhartha Gautama aka Buddha - in an idol form. And they believe that by praying / meditating to the figure will bring them some form of miracle. However, that form of Buddhism is not really what the philosophy of Buddhism is about. Buddhism is a philosophy about selflessness. - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

See-ming, yes, exactly. Any time a person abandons logic and facts in favor of following blindly, whether it's Steve Jobs or Ron Paul or Glenn Beck, it's a type of religion/cult. - (dot)lizard kelly

Belief is by definition suspension of logic and reason. - Brian Sullivan

@manielse I think (and I can be wrong) but at least in my view agnosticism is about indifference of religious views - I identify myself as an agnostic - as I see myself as understanding the context of religion, why they are the way they are but I am indifferent about them. I certainly don't condemn nor wish to start a holywar against one another. - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

As an agnostic (which I am but lean more towards no existence of a Higher Power but I have no definitive proof to discard the possibility completely), I think all major religions have appealing philosophies and overall moral claims. None I can call my own though as no human can fully define an unknown in an absolute term. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

See-ming, that's the other conflict I have with Buddhist teachings / philosophy, aside from the mysticism. True selflessness is not a rational basis for living in this world, unfortunately. To follow those teachings would be impractical, to say the least. - (dot)lizard kelly

Using geekdom examples again, there is far more hate in the Mac vs Windows war. Personally I don't give a damn. I use them all and I think that Linux is the best - but I am not in the business of condemning any of these software or starting viral ad campaigns to trash those systems! In this view, I'm an OS agnostic with love for the penguin. :) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

SML: Look back in the thread for quite a bit on agnosticism and epistemology. - Christopher A Carr

OK, I hate the philosophies and culture of Apple. I have a strong religious view there, not in the OS but the company... :-) - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

@(dot)lizard.kelly Well, is it impractical? Not necessarily. Suggested reading: Happiness: A guide to developing life's most important skill by Matthieu Ricard. In the Life Hack section on my Amazon Listmania Lists: http://bit.ly/smlamazon :) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

See-ming, My personal preferences run to bleeding-edge beta versions of MS, but I have had Macs and once went cold turkey to nothing but Linux. And I work as a web developer, so I must consider the followers of all OS and browsers in my work. - (dot)lizard kelly

@Christopher.A.Carr Yes I will. Typing in my bed as we speak. Barely holding up. I might have to revisit this thread when I get up in the morning! Great thread you guys! - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

See-ming, I will definitely check out that book, but what I meant is not that selflessness is bad, just that balance is the key - I do many, many things altruistically - with an honest generosity and without expectation of return. However I do not do this exclusively, or excessively. If I did, I believe I would become an easy victim. - (dot)lizard kelly

Chris: Good point about epistemology. Using that theory, knowledge about a belief does not entail an endorsement of its truth. For example, "I know about astrology, but I don't believe in it" is perfectly acceptable. It is also possible that someone believes in astrology but knows virtually nothing about it. But in both cases, they established a subjective conclusive belief for themself. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

So using that analogy, (dot)lizard "knows about religion, but doesn't believe in it" but has still established a subjective conclusive belief around religion which is would still be classified as a religious belief none-the-less. So to bring this evening full circle: "null is still part of a set" as Alex stated.and therefore Atheism is a religion due to establishing that they do not endorse God or other religions. - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

A religious belief does not a religion make. Necessary, but not sufficient. - Chieze Okoye

And I still think that the "null is part of set" argument is misused in this discussion, but I'm too tired to put it into words right now. Ok, I think I got it. The flaw I think is in how Alex framed it. The question isn't "how many religions are in this bucket?" (the equivalent of Alex's bean example) but "is atheism a member of the set of things that are religions?" which, just like... more... - Chieze Okoye

@Christopher.A.Carr I've just spent the last half hour reading all the reference materials. Learned a new term. I guess I would be considered an apatheist by wikipedia definition (though I don't generally take wikipedia as the bible (pun intended) :) - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

@LogEx Thanks for your reference to apatheism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... "Apatheism (a portmanteau of apathy and theism/atheism), also known as pragmatic or critically as practical atheism, is acting with apathy, disregard, or *lack of interest* towards belief, or lack of belief in a deity." - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

As an fyi, Tao Te Ching 道德經 means the Book of Ethics, and that's basically what it is. Why Taoism is considered a 'religion' in modern view is odd to me. You can read about it here in Chinese http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw... or English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - These are Chinese classical philosophy. Definitely not a religion. - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

@Chieze.Okoye Well said! - See-ming Lee 李思明 SML

thanks SML. 8^) Oh, and now that I'm rested, I just realized another thing that bugged me about the "null is part of a set" explanation. In set theory, NULL isn't just a thing that doesn't have the property that you're asking about, NULL is the thing that has no property whatsoever. NULL isn't just the absence of belief, NULL is the absence of everything. Clearly this doesn't apply to atheism (since atheism is not nothing). - Chieze Okoye

OK, I submit that the set theory analogy doesn't quite work. But the zero analogy does. Zero is still a measurable quantity. Something with a temperature of zero still has a temperature. Zero miles per hour is still a velocity. Zero feet above sea level is still an altitude. Not believing in gods is still a belief about gods. Not following any religion is still a stance with regards to religion. Are those last two statements enough to make a set of beliefs a religion? Maybe not. - Victor Ganata

I think a religion implies a belief IN gods rather than a belief ABOUT gods. - Kevin Pedraja

But a belief IN gods is still a belief ABOUT gods. - Victor Ganata

I think I've changed my position while thinking about this deeper last night and this am. The Opposite of Atheism would actually be Omnitheism (there may be a term beyond but irrelevant in my hypothesis) so the answer is not just 0 or 1 but rather 0 to ∞ in Alex's set theory model of everything is in a set. Assuming this set is true, These are the defined outer boundaries of theism in a... more... - manielse (Mark Nielsen)

Again Victor, the number theory of zero doesn't really apply either. It's all definition. Your definition of "religion" is "all numbers." My definition of "religion" is "all positive numbers." Now zero doesn't fit into my set of things called "religion." - Chieze Okoye

Fair enough, it really is all about definitions. The question is, I suppose, only really important when it comes to policy and legislation. In those realms, would you want atheism to be considered a religion, or not? - Victor Ganata

"But a belief IN gods is still a belief ABOUT gods." The reverse is not necessarily the case. - Christopher A Carr

In the sense that I want it protected by the 1st Amendment? Yes, I do. Should the 1st Amendment call it "religion" rather than "belief systems" or something more accurate? Not really. - Chieze Okoye

Good question, Victor. As Chesterton said: "What a man believes depends on his philosophy, not on the clock or the century." and "a man who believes in nothing will believe in anything." So the question rightly will be: Who's philosophy will you adopt? Because there won't be a vacuum, something will fill it. - Melanie Reed

The 1st Amendment includes Atheism whether or not it is a religion, it states religions or the choice to not follow any religion, via Freedom of Religion. - Jimminy Fuller

oh, there you go. - Chieze Okoye

Jimminy, do you know the name of the case that decided that? I imagine it's something fairly recent? I realize that is what the text of the amendment does describe, but I'm wondering when it was first tested in court. - Victor Ganata

Ah. So the position of the Supreme Court is that, for the purposes of the First Amendment, atheism is equivalent to a religion, even if its adherents don't think it is one. (The plaintiff in the case was apparently quite adamant about atheism not being a religion.) - Victor Ganata

Victor from what I can tell, it's always been part of the definition, I don't know that any case decided it. But possibly 1994, with Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... - Jimminy Fuller

Wikipedia and Google eventually lead me to this case: Kaufman v Mccaughtry United States Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit. - 419 F.3d 678 http://cases.justia.com/us-cour... "we have suggested in the past that when a person sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of 'ultimate concern' that for her occupy a 'place parallel to that filled by . . . God in traditionally religious persons,' those beliefs represent her religion." - Victor Ganata

wow I got here way too late. Sad. I just want to put in my minor thoughts.. Null != 0 (as opposed to what the very first comment suggested. And you can very much be both Atheist and Agnostic. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you know it to be true. I believe there are no Gods of any kind; I'm fully an atheist. However, I also willingly admit I don't know if my belief is... more... - Bill Rawlinson

(dot)lizard kelly

Re: I Am A Savage- When I was in 5th grade the big thing to do to... - http://savagemike.tumblr.com/post...

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"I have so much respect for the courage it would take to be open about that at a young age. I spent my first 2-3 decades trying everything i could to let go of logic & find some of this intoxicating 'blind faith' stuff everyone seemed to have but me, then the next couple decades just feeling uncomfortable around "vocal christianity". I'm still literally physically nervous to have my FSM badge, my scarlet A, and most recently, my Atheist Nexus badge on my blog (the latter found thru you, and thanks for that.) It's important to me to display these things which I know will cause a significant percentage of people who see them to immediately judge me as described here, but it's more important to identify to others who might be afraid of being themselves. I wonder how many are silent out of fear of this kind of hate. I am thankful for the internet, for helping me to feel less isolated and to be less silent." - (dot)lizard kelly

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