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(dot)lizard kelly › Likes
People are still arguing with @scobleizer about FriendFeed? It's like arguing with Soulja Boy or Waka Flocka about why Hip Hop is dead.
Thierry R. Andriamirado, Alfredo 亜瑠布れっど, Wulffy and 34 other people liked this
The SxSw crowd? You mean...they're an authority on something?
- Rah-PM 2012
TOTAL LOL
- iTad
Don't get me wrong, @scobleizer is that dude in most cases, but arguing with him is an exercise in futility. He's not normal. It's like trying to convince Mo Kargas he shouldn't kill all humans, or telling Louis Gray to take a nap.
- Rah-PM 2012
A second "like" for that last comment, Rahsheen.
- Jack&Cleo
It's useless. What is the point?
- Louis Gray
werd. I find their squabble boring. Back to work... :)
- imabonehead
I keep LOL'ing at Joe asking "who the hell is TED?"
- Rah-PM 2012
Louis: take a nap! :-)
- Robert Scoble
Joe: http://ted.com http://sxsw.com
- Robert Scoble
Kinda sorta, winckel.
- Rah-PM 2012
But Audrey loves Soulja Boy!
- Rochelle
My boys both love Soulja Boy, Waka Flocka, New Boyz, and all that other crap on the radio. I can't be mad, they don't know any better.
- Rah-PM 2012
I've never even heard of Waka Flocka. He/She/They don't get much play on NPR.
- Derrick
People still listen to radio that isn't NPR? ;)
- Sam Levine
Dirty little secret: I have always associated SXSW with music and can't for the life of me figure out why all these tech people are there romping it up. (ok, I know, but it will always be a MUSIC conference to me).
- Martha
Same with my parents. My dad plays bass and mom used to be a promoter. They feel the same way as you :)
- Rah-PM 2012
Back in my band days, the ultimate was to get a gig playing SXSW. So it will always be that way for me. How cool that your parents were both in the biz. Now I see where the musical talent comes from.
- Martha
Ten Things That Are Better About Canada - http://queenofspainblog.com/2008...
(dot)lizard kelly liked this
People always say that they will 'return the favor' when you write them a LinkedIn testimonial + they are not too shy to send you reminders to do it if you haven't done it within a couple of weeks. but invariably after you did it, they never write their own. :)
The Real sofarsoShawn, Morton Fox, (dot)lizard kelly and Lars Clausen liked this
Yeppers. I kind of figured it was because I needed so much urging and nudging to get it done, they're just returning the favor of me taking so long? But, I really put a lot of thought into writing just the right thing, it takes me awhile to work up to that!
- (dot)lizard kelly
Yup i take a lot of time to write my testimonials for people too - and I don't do it unless I truly recommend those people - but while it takes me 1 month to finish theirs, I've been waiting for theirs for a year now and nada.. hahahaa
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
The Argument for Atheism from Christianity - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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(dot)lizard kelly liked this
I have respect for Madalyn Murray O’Hair because she’s an honest atheist. She comes out and says what she believes and she doesn’t care what other people think. I like rationalists, materialists and relativists because they’re generally fairly intelligent and have written some interesting things…things that get inside my head and swirl around up there for a long time.
- Ron Henson
Fwd: Fwd: Because I am a lemming: (via http://friendfeed.com/barrywy...) (via http://friendfeed.com/barrywy...) #GLENMODE
Yolanda, Carmen wBabby, polymath22 and 32 other people liked this
Perfect!
- Josh Haley
As I said, I fear this will not end well. But you guys looked like you were having so much fun.
- MoTO Bott
This is my favorite one!
- I like big Botts
or singing a Radiohead song.
- Joe The Sausage
LOVE!!!
- LB so u no it's real
Yay Barry! haha! :)
- Carmen wBabby
There there Kaia
- MoTO Bott
(Image) - http://ajbatac.soup.io/post...
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Jerome Coloma, SAM, Kazutaka Ogaki and 16 other people liked this
Isn't that from "Who Am I?"
- Outsanity
Yus, it is. I always liked that car chase.
- Arlan K.
What is "Who Am I"?
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
A Jackie Chan Movie
- Outsanity
我是誰 - got it. :) thanks! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
Have You Ever Seen a Double Banana? - http://www.seriouseats.com/2010...
(dot)lizard kelly and Jennifer Dittrich liked this
I swear, in some universe, that is a really ribald pickup line.
- Jennifer Dittrich
Jen, I thought the same thing.
- Mary Carmen
I’m always looking for the loophole—especially when it comes to government institutions like the IRS. That’s why I like Machialvelli and his cohort Thomas Hobbes. Does the end ever justify the means? If the goal is considered beneficial, is it morally right to do anything—including individual acts that on their own would be considered wrong to...
(dot)lizard kelly liked this
Ahh, moral relativism. In dealing with things like the IRS it's a frighteningly complex ethical issue. Loopholes are, by their nature, legal and acceptable, but when it gets into the level of mega-corporations running amok with offshore banking, then the morality of the situation starts to make me quite angry. Do I think that ordinary folk with moderate incomes should do everything they...
more...
- (dot)lizard kelly
@lee @scobleizer If Apple disappoints with the tablet, they can blame Obama. It's trendy.
(dot)lizard kelly liked this
Does the end ever justify the means? If the goal is considered beneficial, is it morally right to do anything—including individual acts that on their own would be considered wrong to achieve that goal? Machialvelli would say “yes”.
(dot)lizard kelly liked this
popcorn 002a on Flickr - Photo Sharing! - http://www.flickr.com/photos...
Heather Solos, Michelle M and (dot)lizard kelly liked this
a simple food, but a food nonetheless. popped in a pan, the old fashion way
- Michael W. May
from Bookmarklet
Also, whilst I yearn for a good set of glass (pyrex) bowls, this cheap plastic thing is my favourite dish type item that I own; smooth and just right for mixing, etc.
- Michael W. May
the old-fashioned way is always best. mmm, with real butter.
- (dot)lizard kelly
@frogtosser lol, is that the issue here?a turnon factor? b/c if it were in reverse, we'd have the high fire of the holy right raining down
(dot)lizard kelly liked this
The Real sofarsoShawn to The's feed, Funny Pics and Videos, Get Fit - Be Active, Fun Stuff, Funny Funny
Wait just a minute...the ass isn't supposed to go there?!!??
Jenny R, Dave Richardson, (dot)lizard kelly and 6 other people liked this
This just made me spit out my coffee pretty much everywhere.
- Hookuh Tinypants
omg *dead of laughter*
- ωαřмaiden ☆TeamOtto☆
prostitution is always very conflicting for me. i want it legalized, so it happens safely. in the end though, it makes me very sad :
Eivind, Spidra Webster, Michael R. Bernstein and 2 other people liked this
To be honest, this is also how I feel about abortion and illicit drugs.
- Victor Ganata
Me too. But when I think of the terrible cost of prohibitions against any of these things, though, I get even sadder, because of all the lives ruined (or ended) by the very laws that are supposed to protect us. All three things are inevitable, part of human nature. "Safe, legal, and rare" is a compassionate and reasonable goal; yet instead of focusing on it, U.S. society seems to want to continue to pretend making human nature against the law is going to change it.
- (dot)lizard kelly
See-ming Lee 李思明 SML to See-ming's feed, SML Universe, Social Media, Friends of Mashable, TheNextWeb Forum, RWW: The Future of Tech, Twitter, Web & Teknoloji
Mashable: 64% Prefer Old Twitter Retweets to New Style #socialmedia #twitter #stats #data via @navidrockni - http://mashable.com/2009...
(dot)lizard kelly, Nach Richters, Chatsohbet and 6 other people liked this
"…old style text-based retweets rule the day! With a 1625 vote (64%) lead over the new style “official” retweets at 699 votes (27%), the old style “add commentary as you wish” version of amplifying someone else’s tweet took the victory by more than a 2 to 1 margin. Almost a tenth of you couldn’t decide between the two, with a 227 vote (9%) tie vote rounding out the poll."
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
from Bookmarklet
You could always still copy-paste the original tweet and add "RT" with your commentary, the new retweet to your followers is so handy and convenient to determine the origin of a particular tweet.
- TrafficBug
Agree. Though one annoying aspect that I've noticed is that I can no longer favorite (aka 'star') a RT if someone is RT my posts. Now I ended up fav'ing my own tweets - which is a bit odd. :)
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
Yep the new retweets don't appear under Mentions or seem to be imported into services like FriendFeed. I only use the new retweet when the tweet does not fit in the 140 character limit - but I rather not use it at all.
- Kol Tregaskes
RT @furthamucka Gov't monitoring FB & Twitter for tax delinquents, copyright infringers & political protesters http://www.nytimes.com/2009...
(dot)lizard kelly liked this
I'll be making some exciting announcements today 3pm PST on @TheDrilldown w/ @MrBabyMan! http://www.ustream.tv/channel... RT please! =) /via @mikeprasad
(dot)lizard kelly liked this
I love how Budweiser acts like it tastes good.
(dot)lizard kelly, Michael W. May, tehKenny and 2 other people liked this
For real.
- Michelle M
Never found any noticeable difference between Budweiser and tap water, so I drink the latter, as it's much less expensive, and save my money for beer instead!
- Ian May
Amen, Ian.
- Mary Carmen
Why is Budweiser like having sex in a canoe? Because they're both fucking close to water!
- (dot)lizard kelly
I got nothing to say....yet! Just signed up, will get some stuff set up soon.
(dot)lizard kelly and Rochelle liked this
Welcome! :) Come join the FF Beginners Group: http://friendfeed.com/friendf...
- Rochelle
Excellent suggestion!
- Dennis Jernberg
Hey buddy - Dennis! :)
- Mo Moore
Thanks, Rochelle - I'm working on it!
- Mo Moore
rt @SaraMazur Did you know that smoking around your Apple computer can void your warranty? http://consumerist.com/5408885... #wtf
(dot)lizard kelly liked this
Any good #iphone #friendfeed apps out there that's worth checking out? tried a couple (paid for them!) and didn't like either... #smlask
(dot)lizard kelly and Mike Chelen liked this
Depends on what you want to do with it...
- Kimber Scott
@Kimber.Scott and so I realized that the safari UI for iphone appears to be best...!
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
fftogo.com also works pretty nicely, though it isn't a standalone app
- Mike Chelen
@Mike.Chelen Thanks. Will definitely check it out :) #smlthankyou
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
@stevefarnworth I think Twitter has major security problems. I'm hearing from a lot of people who say they didn't do anything and got hacked
Mert Erkal and (dot)lizard kelly liked this
How the wolf ended up on the Falklands (he walked) - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...
(dot)lizard kelly liked this
I need help. Trying to compile list of top 20 atheists, by no. of twitter followers. PZ and et.al are obvious. Who else?
Crispy Sea and (dot)lizard kelly liked this
twitter, you can't be serious. filtering retweets one person at a time? GMAFB
ursi and (dot)lizard kelly liked this
wait, what?
- (dot)lizard kelly
theyr'e rolling out the new retweet which discourages all conversation. you can choose which rts you want to see, by toggling the switch on each user. LOL
- Karoli
that works for me some peeps too spammy
- Mark Forman
Having to set the setting for each user is annoying. Seems like it's just like their device notification settings.
- Rah-PM 2012
well is there anything keeping us from using the old-fashioned DIY retweet?
- (dot)lizard kelly
Mark, if you don't like spam you'll hate the new retweet. HATE IT.
- Karoli
dotlizard, I suppose it depends on whether the twitter police are listening. but think about tweetmeme and the other RT metric measurements. If we don't play on twitter's playground, metrics go nuts.
- Karoli
dunno haven't seen yet???
- Mark Forman
How're the twitter police gonna stop us from doing it however we want?
- TxVoodoo
Sure, the early adopters will blaze the trails into the future, but it's the next wave of people who will lay down the actual roadbed. Leaders ain't nothing without followers.
Scoble, Alex Scoble and (dot)lizard kelly liked this
Didn't someone describe the four stages of a trend? leaders, early adopters, mainstream, and the trailing edge? One of the things I remember from that was that there were lots of cases where the bleeding edge types went that no one else ever followed them to.
- Andrew C (✓)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... ... apparently the mainstream ("majority") is big enough it deserves being split into early majority and late majority.
- Andrew C (✓)
See-ming Lee 李思明 SML to See-ming's feed, SML Universe, Ideas & Inspiration, Web & Teknoloji, RWW: The Future of Tech, OpenSourceWorld, TheNextWeb Forum
Using an open licence #video ie #creativecommons vs #copyright #open #law by @zeroinfluencer - http://www.youtube.com/watch...
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Véronique Rabuteau, atner, Michael W. May and (dot)lizard kelly liked this
"A lecture I gave about Creative Commons whilst at Channel4 TV. The audio was then remixed with animations from Ben Cormack. Note how C4 added a copyright notice at the very end. Sigh. The video is licenced by myself and Ben under CC-BY-SA. Feel free to rework it.. 'Original' version is available here: http://www.channel4.com/music......"
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
from Bookmarklet
Красиво! (CC)
- atner
@atner Красиво! fyi Zeroinfluencer is also on FriendFeed. Subscribe to his feed at http://friendfeed.com/zeroinf... :)
- See-ming Lee 李思明 SML
ok
- atner
"Blue Cross sent me a postage-prepaid postcard to send to my Senator opposing a Public Option" (PICS) - Democratic Underground - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss...
Laura (hear me raura?), Michael Muller, Jay Cuthrell and 92 other people liked this
"So I'm using Blue Cross's postage to send MY message. Thanks Blue Cross for the postage."
- April Buchheit
from Bookmarklet
The postcard says "Postage will be paid by addressee", which implies it's the senator who will be paying the postage. Of course, the senator's franking privileges may make it so that the taxpayers pay the postage.
- Gabe
True. But why is it that the Senator Hagan/taxpayers should be paying for Blue Cross' message?
- Christopher Chung
My friend did this, too. I hope I get one in the mail.
- Ayşe E.
They haven't sent me one of these, but when they do, I'll be sure to mail it in unmodified (or with a big "NO ON PUBLIC OPTION" written on it, perhaps). The very notion of government run health insurance is a travesty that will end up bankrupting this country.
- Otto
So you don't think Medicare or the Veterans Health Administration is going to pan out, even after all these years?
- Mark Trapp
Medicare and the VA system are living proof of my statements. They offer crappy service and are continually costing more and more as time goes on. They are unsustainable in the long term, and basically expanding these failures to cover everybody is only going to accelerate the problem.
- Otto
What's long term? The VA system has been going since 1778, and Medicare since 1965. Are you thinking at the 300 year mark, they'll finally collapse?
- Mark Trapp
Right on! Good for you! That's a great idea
- Ciaoenrico
Our Canadian single-payer health care has been going strong for some time now with no risk of bankruptcy. I'd like to see some evidence that our system is unsustainable.
- Matt M (inactive)
The VA system is garbage, ask any veteran who has to use it on a regular basis. And medicare is on the verge of bankruptcy, and has been for at least decade now. Last I checked, medicare was the biggest drain of tax revenue that exists. Predictions I've seen give it 10 more years, tops, even with restructuring.
- Otto
What Matt said.
- Nathalie
That's awesome!
- Jan Ole Peek
Of course, the assertion that government-run health insurance is unsustainable (whether Medicare, the VA, the Canadian system, or any other) raises the question of what system is more sustainable than government-run insurance. It's certainly not the current American one. ... I love April's use of the mailer.
- John (bird whisperer)
Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of health care reform... But insurance reform is unnecessary. The problem is not the insurance companies, their reactions and bad-behaviors are created by the high cost of medical care to begin with. Fix the health care system to not cost so damn much, and the problems with insurance will solve themselves. Strike at the source of the problems, not at the consequences of them.
- Otto
Otto: Insurance causes high prices of medical care. Since you don't pay, the hospital can set its prices arbitrarily high and the insurance company pays whatever its maximum is. Since the insurance company pays so much, they have to have high insurance rates, which makes insurance expensive to buy. If the government had their own insurance, they would be big enough to demand low prices,...
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- Gabe
That's insane. The existence of insurance does not cause the high price of medial care. You have it exactly backwards. Furthermore, the idea of a government-run-insurance plan would not solve that problem, if it was at all the truth, because you're dealing with a supply demand situation. The government run plan could say they weren't going to pay above $X, at which point the medical...
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- Otto
The truth is that most of the waste in medical costs comes from two places: administrative overhead and fraud. Both of these are primarily caused by Medicare and the bureaucracy surrounding it.
- Otto
Otto: Why is that you keep ignoring all the evidence from other countries that support national health care (e.g. http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues...) and you also keep ignoring the facts that show that medicare has lower costs that private insurance (e.g. http://www.cms.hhs.gov/Nationa... )
- Robert Felty
@Otto - why do you think there is so much administrative overhead? To deal with all the different insurance companies and the reems of paperwork to get a claim approved and avoid malpractice suits. That means more people have to be hired and trained just to deal with all that stuff and more systems and processes have to be put in place to handle it all. Insurance companies make more...
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- Lindsay
@Lindsay: I know several people who work in administrative roles in hospitals. Not one of them agrees with you. The problem isn't the insurance forms and such, those are fairly standard. Almost all of the administrative overhead is due specifically to Medicare. And no, I do not work in the health insurance industry, so your ad-hominem attack makes no sense whatsoever. Why is it that...
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- Otto
@Robert: I'm not ignoring evidence from other countries, I'm discounting most of it based on facts that contradict the ones you are linking to. And Medicare has lower costs than private insurance because it rarely pays for anything. How many people who have medicare must also have their own insurance in order to get proper medical treatment? Have you looked up the numbers on that?
- Otto
Otto, how does limiting the pricing result in providers refusing service? In Canada, the Federal Government sets the pricing schedule, but the private providers are still here, providing us good service for a set fee. More info on our system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... I would say that our health care system is an excellent counterpoint to "if you fix the fees at a certain point, providers will stop providing service".
- Matt M (inactive)
Otto - would you care to share some references which contain the facts that contradict those which I shared? I am open-minded, but I need to see actual data from credible sources to form my opinions.
- Robert Felty
How does Otto make the claim that insurance isn't even part of the problem when medical loss ratios in the health insurance business have dropped from 95% to 80% in just 15 years? (and if you don't know what that means, you don't have an informed opinion about health care reform.)
- Andrew C (✓)
I am always amazed at the ignorance of those arguing against public health care services when practically the entire world is doing it and they always have their facts wrong about Medicare and every other system. They'll become advocates when they or their loved ones are being evicted or foreclosed upon while they are dying an excruciating and untreated death.
- Brad Nickel
Otto, just exactly how many veterans have you actually talked to? The VA definitely has flaws, but all the veterans I've talked to seem to like the service provided, and often compare it favorably to the private sector. And why are all those people out there so opposed to changing Medicare if it's so terrible? Since you've stated you haven't seen a doctor in decades, how could you possibly have any experience with any health care system whatsoever?
- Victor Ganata
FFS... @Matt: Canada has a lower doctor to patient ratio than anybody else does, and it's decreasing all the time. @Robert: You have Google. Use it. I wouldn't believe links you provide me, so why should you believe links I provide you? Do your own research and make up your own mind. I'm not trying to convince you or anybody else, and I frankly don't care what you believe. @Andrew C:...
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- Otto
*shrug* I'm supposed to be swayed by second-hand anecdotal evidence from someone who doesn't have any recent direct experience with any health care system? If you don't care, why do you continue to post?
- Victor Ganata
*shrug* I'm supposed to be swayed by somebody who actually has a vested interest in the health care system (ie, a doctor)? See, I can use fallacious arguments as well as you can, Victor! ;) Also, I post to express my opinions and ideas. Why else would anybody post anything?
- Otto
Otto, your facts on doctor:patient ratio are incorrect. Our ratio is 2.2 per 1000, versus 2.4 per 1000 in the USA. In fact, our ratio has improved from 2.1 in the 1990s. While our doctor:patient ratio is not as high as other public health care systems, it isn't far off that of the USA.
- Matt M (inactive)
Here's my reference: http://www.oecd.org/dataoec... "Between 1990 and 2007, the number of doctors per capita remained relatively stable in Canada"
- Matt M (inactive)
Otto, but, fair is fair, so long as you don't pretend your anecdotes are generalizable truth, I won't pretend mine are either. It is clear that you do have quite a grasp on fallacious arguments. :) And I do agree that it's important to consider the source of your evidence.
- Victor Ganata
Otto, the dropping medical loss ratio specifically means an increasing share of premiums isn't going towards paying for health care; that is /by itself/ inherently bad! In an actual working market, advances in efficiency, if any, would be passed along to the consumers in the form of lower premiums. Instead, prices are getting jacked up even faster than health care inflation because the health care insurance industry exploits monopoly power.
- Andrew C (✓)
@Matt: According to the WHO: http://nofearsingapore.blogspot.com/2007... the numbers are slightly different. Close, admittedly. However, the important thing to note is that Canada's ratio is the lowest among almost all industrialized countries, which was my point. I was not comparing to the US, specifically.
- Otto
@Andrew C: I understand what "medical loss ratio" means. I understand what "profit" and "premiums" are. What I don't understand is why you think a company should not be allowed to make a legitimate profit? Insurance is gambling. If you don't like the bet, then don't gamble. Or, if you really want to see the loss ratios decrease, then ALLOW COMPETITION. Currently there is virtually no...
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- Otto
You make no sense. A company should certainly be allowed to make a legitimate profit, but indefinitely extracting rent at this level is a clear symptom of market-setting power. Trying to call one the other doesn't actually make them the same thing. Also, people can only reasonably get it from their employer _because that's the only affordable option_. Individual insurance exists; it's...
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- Andrew C (✓)
I find it pretty funny BTW that you have implicitly agreed with the rest of us that the health care _insurance_ industry actually is part of the problem.
- Andrew C (✓)
"Insurance is gambling. If you don't like the bet, then don't gamble." It shouldn't have to be a game. Everyone is going to need medical attention at some point in their life. It's a matter of how you will be able to afford to pay for it. People pay for insurance because it's the only way they can afford to ensure that their health will be taken care of. It's not really an option if you...
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- Lindsay
It's the conservative message: You're On Your Own.
- Andrew C (✓)
For the record, I'm not a conservative. I'm also not a liberal. I'm a person, with my own opinions and ideas. Labeling people only means that you're not paying attention to what they're saying.
- Otto
@Andrew C: Individual insurance is priced out of the market because of regulations limiting what kinds of plans can be offered. Why can I not a health insurance plan for, say, emergencies only? I'm healthy, I don't have any need to go to the doctor much, I never get sick, the only reason I'd need to do so would be an accident. So why can't I buy that insurance? State regulations...
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- Otto
@Lindsay: Your statements are provably false. Not everyone is going to need medical attention at some point in their lives. Furthermore, if your statement was true, health insurance would not work at all, since the entire point of "insurance" is to spread risk. If risk was 100%, as you claim, then there's nothing to spread. For the record, I do not currently have, nor need, health...
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- Otto
Everyone has some chance of getting hit by a bus or eating E.coli tainted food or having a tree branch fall on them. {shrug}
- Andrew C (✓)
Except for the winners who have somehow divined ways not to do so, I guess.
- Andrew C (✓)
@Otto, your claim about emergencies-only plans being ruled out seems incorrect to me: http://www.insurance.com/health-...
- Andrew C (✓)
Otto is completely right. Insurance, not having insurance, it's all gambling. What's relevant is regulation limits choices; or forces one person's judgement and preferences on another. Big government healthcare won't work because the government can't do anything well because unlike a market it doesn't have distributed knowlege and I don't think the incentives are right. Witness the UK's...
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- Rob Fisher
While I don't know if we're using the word catastrophe in the same way, clearly there are policies that have very high deductibles where realistically, the only time they would pay benefits would be if you ended up hospitalized. And there are plenty of policies that don't cover preventative care at all. Even these types of policies are out of the reach of quite a few Americans.
- Victor Ganata
What a silly response Otto. Its all emotional. Why do you think the argument here is so passionate? The fact that you would even dismiss it that way tells me everything I need to know about your point of view and existence. Sad.
- Brad Nickel
from email
If "the government can't do anything well" why do they even exist? Unless you're an anarchist, I can't see how it makes sense.
- Victor Ganata
There are limited things governments might be good at. Defense of the realm; keeping the peace. They are not good at providing goods and services. When they try to provide (or control the supply of) food, for example, you get famine. That's because you need market signals to stimulate [the right amount of] supply [and demand<delete], and that information is not centralised. The same problem affects government supplied healthcare. Hence waiting lists.
- Rob Fisher
We have waiting lists now. In what way are the NHS's waiting lists worse than the delays caused by having to argue with insurance companies to get coverage for diagnostic tests, procedures, and specialist referrals?
- Victor Ganata
Because the latter involves the invisible hand somehow!
- Andrew C (✓)
It's hard to say. I'm not arguing that you don't have a problem, just that more government isn't the solution. E.g. on the NHS you often end up paying for your own treatment anyway just so you get it in time. This is not an improvement.
- Rob Fisher
So that's not really different from the current system we have now: you can always pay cash. I think "more government isn't the solution" is a bare assertion that needs a fair amount of evidence to actually prove.
- Victor Ganata
Medicare and the VHA have waiting lists? Really? I haven't ever heard anyone waiting for Medicare, and it's single payer. I haven't heard of anyone in England (or Canada, or any other developed country) put on a waiting list. Do you have evidence to support that? You would write off education, food safety, the highway system, firemen, and air safety as well? Seems like you're asking for a very extreme form of government that isn't very much like what developed countries are or what they provide.
- Mark Trapp
Otto: The way that discourse works in research-based journals is that one person makes a claim, and backs that up with either data, and/or references to other research. I would happily read any references you give. I don't understand why you wouldn't look at references that I give.
- Robert Felty
Rob Fisher: if government controlled healthcare doesn't work, then why does Canada spend less on health care per person, but have lower infant mortality rates, and longer life expectancy? In addition, these numbers have improved since they started their single payer system, while our numbers have basically remained flat. http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues...
- Robert Felty
Victor: What can I say? You probably won't be impressed by my Austrian economics theory. You could come and live in the UK and get sick, and see what it's like. :) I do hope the USA manages to avoid the worst of it. Maybe look around at what many other countries do; I don't think anyone gets it quite right. Singapore seems to have good healthcare; but their statistics look good partly...
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- Rob Fisher
I also think it's fallacious to believe we're actually arguing about a completely government controlled system. The public option is not even close to a true single-payer system, and nowhere near a nationalized health care system. It is quite similar to Medicare, except with different eligibility criteria, and as far as I can tell, Medicare doesn't seem to have destroyed the private health insurance industry, no matter how many people try to argue that slippery slope.
- Victor Ganata
Part of the reason all healthcare isn't like that is because not all health procedures and exams are as simple as eye exams.
- Andrew C (✓)
@Rob Fisher - the number of Canadians who seek treatment in the US is not very large: http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi...
- Andrew C (✓)
You probably can't get a new liver in an hour and expect to have a good outcome no matter where you go.
- Victor Ganata
But you should be able to get simple scans and tests quickly and cheaply. You can't on the NHS. The point about this not being about an NHS-like system is taken, though.
- Rob Fisher
If you are insured by a private insurer in the US your health fate is decided by insurance underwriters and doctor panels whose sole mandate is to save and make money for the company- not to keep you healthy or prevent you from getting sick or sicker. A doctor's intuition on what a patient may need, even in terms of preventative/investigative testing is hooey as far as they are...
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- Karma Martell
How do we get to a point where you can make money by keeping people healthy? People want to be healthy, so it must be doable.
- Rob Fisher
The prescription drug cos would fold, Rob. That is not what they want.
- Karma Martell
i wish i could do more than "like" this. oh, and while i'm here loving this, @Rob Fisher -- my answer is, make money doing something other than "keeping people healthy" -- putting profit and human life in the same objective is bound to have some horrifying conflicts of interest, no matter how pure the "health" motivation is. and with $$ involved, it will never even be close to approximating pure.
- (dot)lizard kelly
@Rob - you can make money by keeping people healthy, but as (dot)lizard kelly just said, you can make _more_ money by not... for example, by collecting premiums from healthy people and denying coverage to your sick customers.
- Andrew C (✓)
@kelly - I wouldn't mind people profiting by keeping people healthy. Hospitals and doctors do that. The trouble with insurance companies is that they profit by denying people care.
- John (bird whisperer)
Karma: As long as *someone* can make money at it, doesn't matter who. (dot)lizard kelly: food is important to be healthy; people make money at providing food; no conflict of interest there. I'm not convinced there's anything so different about healthcare. I'll sleep on it and let you know if I have thought of an amazing business plan in the morning. And if it doesn't work, I'll be looking for regulations that stop it working.
- Rob Fisher
(I suspect the reason is you can't switch insurance companies easily.)
- Rob Fisher
Simple scans and tests frequently lead to incidental findings that are almost always benign but lead to literal million dollar workups. I actually don't think easy access to everything is always the right answer.
- Victor Ganata
The food example may not be a good counter-argument here in the U.S., where farmers have actually been paid not to grow things in order to artificially keep prices up.
- Victor Ganata
Evidently you and others that spout this free market gobbldy gook have never worked for corporate America and the absolute incompetence in those organizations. Hello , can you say mortgage, banking, savings and loan, energy, etc etc etc. It is a lie and a myth and you folks have gotten away with it for far too long! Thanks, Brad
- Brad Nickel
from email
I have worked for corp America. As Brad says, free market is never free. The wealth is not distributed. There needs to be accountability and standards. As Obama says, an insurance co should not be able to come between a decision made by you and your doctor. And Victor, it's about fair access, not just access if you have the money and you can override the system.
- Karma Martell
The problem is that access is controlled by two forces: actual medical need, and the need to generate a profit, and lots of times these forces end up opposing each other. As the costs of medical care continue to increase, I think we're going to have to decide as a society which is actually more important.
- Victor Ganata
This is not to say that I don't think people who actually provide the care shouldn't be compensated for their labor. (In my case, that's just self-interest.) But there's a huge difference between fair compensation and outright profiteering.
- Victor Ganata
So who is paying for the "Public Option"?
- Brett Veenstra
And who here does not know Blue Cross is a private company.
- ۳۰ مرغ Loves Y'ALLLLL
If you go by what's in the House bill, the public option will initially be financed by seed money from the federal government that is supposed to be paid back in 10 years. In the long run, it's supposed to be funded entirely by the premiums of people who choose to participate in the plan.
- Victor Ganata
Otto: it is not the existence of insurance companies that keep prices high (auto insurance's existence doesn't make auto repairs artificially inflated), it is how the system works. If I am a healthcare provider and you are a patient who will only pay $100 no matter how expensive the treatment is, I can set the price as high as I want. Your insurance might only cover $500, but somebody else's might cover $1000 or $5000, so there's no reason I shouldn't set my price at $5000 for the treatment.
- Gabe
Furthermore, let's say that there's a 1% chance that you'll need another $5000 test (an MRI perhaps). If you do need it and I don't give it to you, there's a chance you'll sue me and my malpractice insurance goes way up. If I give it to you and you don't need it, you don't care because you're not paying for it. You end up getting lots unnecessary tests just so I don't get sued. In...
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- Gabe
I dunno, didn't Japan solve the MRI problem by providing lots of them and driving the cost-per-exam down? ( http://www.pbs.org/wgbh... )
- Andrew C (✓)
And besides, the insurance companies in the States deal with that problem by denying procedures.
- Andrew C (✓)
It might be instructive to look at the US airline industry before and after deregulation. It used to be that prices were fixed, so airlines competed on service. This meant that service was good, and profits were built-in so airlines weren't constantly in bankruptcy. It also meant that flying was a luxury that most people could not afford, which made it not so crowded either. After...
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- Gabe
Unless you intend on repealing EMTALA, access to emergency care regardless of ability to pay is in fact a guaranteed right in the U.S.
- Victor Ganata
Hmmmm... Unless Crutis you think they fall within Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness! Thanks, Brad
- Brad Nickel
from email
What of someone is happiest if they choose not to acquire health care insurance? It would seem to me that the imposition would thwart their pursuit and remove their liberty.
- Mattb4rd
When are we going to learn that the cake really is a lie? Re: Washington D.C. - I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
- Mattb4rd
Civilization is impossible without some form of government. The idea that we can live without it is the lie.
- Victor Ganata
No, the lie is that government is somehow required in all aspects of daily life. Civilization does need government, but mostly it needs it to stay as small as possible and leave people alone as much as possible. You are not a child. Grow up and deal with your own problems instead of expecting the rest of society to take care of you.
- Otto
BTW, a "public option" doesn't actually bother me provided you use absolutely zero tax money to pay for it. Make it paid for entirely by the premiums of the people who opt-in to it, and I have no further argument against it whatsoever. (Also, eliminate the part of the current plan that imposes tax penalties on those of us who choose to not have health insurance, as that is simply flat-out wrong. If I choose to cover my own risk, then that is my business, not the governments.)
- Otto
Yeah Otto, that works well. For example banks, mortgage companies, savings and loans, toys from China, Enron.... The naive Libertarian view of the world that somehow everything will work out in the end and all will be well makes me laugh every time I hear it. Greed, perversion, violence, and chaos don't go away when the government goes away. Human run institutions are all equally flawed...
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- Brad Nickel
from email
Brad: I don't know what world you're living in, but it's not the same one I am. Government has done very little good in the world, and is in fact responsible for the vast majority of evil in it. Perhaps you forget who's waging wars, eh? A few people inconvenienced by a bank or who signed bad mortgages doesn't really much compare to millions and millions of dead people. Also, "this...
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- Otto
Sure, because the US Department of Defense had absolutely nothing to do with the Internet whatsoever. But I agree. To believe that the government is either completely virtuous or always evil is delusional.
- Victor Ganata
Actually Otto, religion and greed are responsible for most of the wars. Whether a government fights them or not is irrelevant and these days its private corporations that are fighting much of our wars and doing a piss poor job of it as evidenced by the debacle that is Iraq. That there is a fine example of where we should have let government run things, but we had to privatize things at...
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- Brad Nickel
from email
@Victor: The DoD had very little to do with creating the internet, short of funding it. They paid for it in order to connect universities together (whom they were funding for other projects as well). It's not like they sent over a bunch of engineers to lay some cables or actually wrote any of the protocols or anything. Vint Cerf didn't actually go work for DARPA until 1976. The first pipes were laid when he was still in school.
- Otto
@Brad: It's amazing to me that anybody can espouse a philosophy like yours, which enables governments to control the population and do basically anything they like, including killing millions of innocent people through senseless wars and immoral legislation. Corporations didn't bomb Iraq and Afghanistan, the federal government did. Corporations didn't lie to us about the non-existent...
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- Otto
Yes, because ordinary people with no funding or government backing whatsoever can always complete large scale worldwide projects if they just work hard enough, without any assistance. Rugged individualism FTW.
- Victor Ganata
@Victor: Why must everything come down to "large scale" and "worldwide" in your view? Are you so incapable of taking care of your own problems that you want to a) take care of everybody else's and b) have yours taken care of by everybody else? We're talking about health care. Why must "health" be a worldwide problem, to the extent that you want to take away individual rights in favor of...
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- Otto
Otto, where are we talking about taking away individual rights? I'm talking about HR 3200, not some fantastical single payer system or some nationalized health care system from your paranoid nightmares. Don't be a fool. Look around you right now. Clearly health can be a worldwide problem. And it's disingenuous to believe the Internet would have been built if some government hadn't been around to provide funding.
- Victor Ganata
Silly Otto... Its obvious that an informed conversation with you is impossible, since you are unable to defend your actual philosophy or arguments and rely upon distortions and extremely silly exaggerations to try and make a point when the question being asked can not be answered with the truth. This happens every single time I debate a Libertarian. They can't explain themselves or how...
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- Brad Nickel
from email
Because we'll have to pay for your silly self to keep you alive when you are sick and dying and don't have coverage.
- Brad Nickel
from email
@Victor: HR3200 takes away my right to choose my own health insurance (in my case, none) by imposing additional taxation and penalties for my choice. It also uses tax money to finance the "public option", which I'm firmly opposed to. And it's disingenuous to believe that the internet would have NOT been built if the government had not provided the funding. It would have happened...
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- Otto
@Brad: I'm tired of listening to your socialist and communist rhetoric. (See? I can apply incorrect labels just as well as you can! I'm not a "Libertarian".) Anyway, if you want the government to control your life, keep it to yourself, I'm not interested. Also, if you can find anywhere I called you anything other than "Brad", I'd be very interested. Note: Saying your ideas amount to "totalitarianism" isn't name-calling when it's true.
- Otto
You are a funny guy Otto and I mean that in all the ways it can be interpreted.
- Brad Nickel
Fine. Welcome to my block list, Brad. If you ever grow up and decide that you want to have a real conversation instead of trolling, then I'll be happy to oblige you. Until then, just rant incoherently to somebody else, eh?
- Otto
LOL. See what I mean. You are funny.
- Brad Nickel
Are you kidding me about the Internet, Otto? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... Note that 2 of the original nodes were UC schools--government funded public schools. With HR 3200, it's obviously going to take money to get the public option up and running, but it's supposed to be paid back in 10 years. As for the mandate, it's not ideal, but I don't see how else it will work. Otherwise,...
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- Victor Ganata
No, I think they are supposed to let him die.
- Brad Nickel
@Victor: No, I'm not kidding, and that link backs up every word I just said about it. As for the public option paying for itself, are you joking? Medicare is continuously in the red (average benefit per person in Medicare is $11,000 per year!) , and you think making a bigger version will somehow magically work? As for the mandate, that's an absolute deal-breaker, because it it is...
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- Otto
That's how government projects almost always work: they award private companies contracts to do the work. Even HR 3200 is structured that way.
- Victor Ganata
If you actually look at it, HR 3200 isn't structured like Medicare. And why is it that state laws that mandate you to carry auto insurance if you drive haven't been struck down by the Supreme Court if it's so unconstitutional? If you're totally healthy there are policies with $10,000 annual deductibles that cost like $50 a month. Obviously, the health insurance companies would rather you pay for a more expensive plan if they can get you to.
- Victor Ganata
Why in the world is a high deductible insurance plan not what you want, Otto?
- Andrew C (✓)
"Medicare is continuously in the red" - regular people who aren't on Medicare either lose benefits or coverage entirely or get outrageous rate hikes, so I'm not sure why you seem to keep claiming private insurance is any better...
- Andrew C (✓)
My goodness, a single-payer plan in BC costs ~$54/person/month and the deductible is way lower than $10K. And what I lose in 'freedom', I gain back in peace of mind and more money in my pocket overall. (and isn't the glibertarian definition of freedom money?) (Amazingly, the US actually spends as much _government_ money on health care per capita as Canada, and then of course far more in private money on top.)
- Andrew C (✓)
@Victor: a) State laws don't require you to carry auto insurance. They require you to carry auto insurance *OR* post a bond for some fixed amount, in case you hit somebody else. and b) Auto insurance is about liability (protecting other people from you), while health insurance is not (it's about about protecting you from other things, people included).
- Otto
@Andrew C: I fail to understand the question. A high deductible insurance plan is not what I want, because it is not what I want. What I want is a health insurance plan that will only cover me from, say, accident. Something that doesn't cover routine crap which I won't be needing anyway, or which I can pay for myself. In cases where there is an accident, I don't want *any* deductible,...
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- Otto
A high deductible plan effectively only covers you for catastrophes, because you're on your own for the first $5K or $10K, so all "routine crap" will be out of pocket.
- Andrew C (✓)
BTW, not seeing a doctor even for routine checkups is also gambling. Good luck with that.
- Andrew C (✓)
"Effectively" is not the same thing as actually. And if there was some kind of major incident, I'd still be on the hook for the $10k, which is still problematic. Basically, a high deductible means that you're getting no real coverage at all, it's not disaster coverage.
- Otto
The $10k outlay doesn't sound problematic to me; you've been investing your money, right?
- Andrew C (✓)
Andrew C: No, it's not. There is no actual need for "routine checkups" in a healthy human being. You'd free to disagree, but I'm just going to say you're wrong, and that is that, so there's no point in arguing it. And whether I can afford $10k or not is beside the point, it's still not the type of coverage I actually need or want.
- Otto
Otto - You have a valid point that insurance is designed to cover catastrophes. It turns out that preventative medicine helps to avoid catastrophes though. So it is in the best interest of insurance companies to encourage their customers to get preventative care. One way to do that is to pay fot it. Another way to do it would be to give people discounts for getting regular checkups, just like you get discounts on auto insurance for having a good driving record.
- Robert Felty
Yeah, there really is no point in arguing with you, not when you just make statements and "that is that". (Good thing cancer never starts off growing in the body for years before becoming a major problem! And that arteries don't ever get clogged before they close up entirely.)
- Andrew C (✓)
Robert: Preventative medicine does help to avoid catastrophe, however, it's also far cheaper to cover your own costs there instead of relying on insurance coverage to pay for it for you. It makes no sense for insurance to cover basic care. You don't pay for gasoline with your auto insurance, do you? The fact that insurance covers basic care means added burdens to the administrative overhead, higher premiums, etc, etc. It's a bad system overall.
- Otto
OK, so you want catastrophic coverage that starts from dollar 1 for accidents, but no insurance for routine procedures. I think this is a little ridiculous, but you're right, I don't think insurance companies offer that.
- Andrew C (✓)
Insurance companies are actively prevented from offering it, is what you meant to say. Many state laws require certain minimum levels of coverage, so the plan I want/need is unavailable to me because of over-regulation.
- Otto
Preventative care isn't gasoline. Food is the analogy to gasoline. And no, health care insurance doesn't pay for food.
- Andrew C (✓)
@Andrew C: Okay then, if you don't like that metaphor... Does your auto insurance pay for oil changes? My point is that health care should not pay for routine stuff *unless I want it to*. I do not want it to, I'm perfectly capable of dealing with routine stuff on my own.
- Otto
Otto - this is not just about you though. It is mostly about the millions of people who don't have any insurance at all right now. Also, with the oil change analogy, that is not quite right either. Standard auto insurance does not pay for vehicle failure. It pays for vehicle damage due to accidents. There probably is a small correlation between frequency of oil changes and automobile accidents, but I bet that the correlation between regular colonoscopies and advanced colon cancer is much higher.
- Robert Felty
Robert: Auto insurance does indeed pay for vehicle failure, if you have comprehensive insurance. Depends on the type of failure. On the other hand, you can get liability insurance to only pay for accidents caused by you, if you so want. You have choice of what to get. And I'd venture to bet that the correlation between colonoscopies and colon cancer is indeed quite high, but in the...
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- Otto
Otto - my dad gets regular colonoscopies, because he has diverticulosis, and I am not ready for him to die just yet.
- Robert Felty
Robert: He has a medical condition. I'd hardly call that "routine maintenance", sort of thing.
- Otto
Sure. The reason why health insurance companies don't offer plans like that are completely because all 50 states have strict mandates, and certainly not because the health insurance companies don't think they're profitable and would prefer that you pay for more coverage. Of course it's always the government's fault, and never the invisible hand's.
- Victor Ganata
Victor: In this case, what I said was in fact true. All 50 states and even the federal government have tons of regulations on the health insurance industry. Rates, premiums, etc.. these are all fixed by the individual states. The insurance companies have to work within a very narrow window of guidelines, sort of thing. This is one reason that so many of them have tried hard to deny...
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- Otto
The only regulation I see that applies to all 50 states is that insurance companies have to be solvent, capable of paying claims, and able to process claims in timely fashion. Fact is, the insurance companies have continued to make record profits despite all these regulations, so I'm not exactly going to cry them a river.
- Victor Ganata
Switzerland gets by with strict regulation... Admittedly, I doubt they have the kind of catastrophe-only plans you like, but (1) the insurers there make it work, and (2) they achieve better coverage and outcomes than the current US system does.
- Andrew C (✓)
I just can't get over the rhetoric. It truly makes me laugh outloud. Slave labor. It's not worthy of further debate.
- Brad Nickel
from email
It's hardly slavery when health care professionals take oaths to serve society in exchange for the position of privilege it puts them in. And they provide care that isn't fully compensated quite frequently: it's part and parcel of many of the contracts they sign with insurance companies. Are you going to call that slavery too?
- Victor Ganata
It is impossible to be a physician without government interference, since license to practice is issued by the state. I'm not sure I'd want it otherwise, personally. Anyway, once again we're straying from the topic at hand: there's nothing in HR 3200 that says you have to accept gov't issued insurance, anymore than you have to accept Medicare or Medicaid. It will still be quite possible to have a nice little boutique practice without getting a paycheck from the gov't.
- Victor Ganata
I do medical billing for a nursing home. Those of you who are in favor of a public option obviously don't understand Medicare and Medicaid. We couldn't take care of anybody if we had to rely only on what the government pays. And doctors didn't go to school for all those years and incur all that debt just to be civil servants with tons of red tape and poor compensation. There will be a huge shortage of doctors within a decade. If the bill passes the Senate, we're in for a true disaster.
- Dawn
Screw you people who think that just because I'm going to get an increasing amount of my income from the government should the public option pass, I'm suddenly going to become a shitty doctor.
Spidra Webster, Rodfather, John (bird whisperer) and 7 other people liked this
If I become a shitty doctor, I guarantee it's not going to be because of the marginal increase in the proportion of payments I get from the government.
- Victor Ganata
They don't "think" that, per se. They "parrot" that because an insurance company lobbyist went on Fox News disguised as an expert and told them what to say. The insurance company lobbyist doesn't think that either, it's just a convenient fiction to scare the masses.
- (dot)lizard kelly
Isn't "gastroenterologist" the preferred term?
- Jim Norris
LOL
- Victor Ganata
"There's a lot of money in shit" -- The Fat Man, senior resident from The House of God by Samuel Shem http://www.amazon.com/House-G...
- Victor Ganata
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