@scobleizer hate links that push you through... - Dwight Silverman

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@scobleizer hate links that push you through Friendfeed in order to get to an article you like. very unfriendly to have to click 2x.

April 15 from Twitter - Comment - Like - Share

Steve Chou, James Michael Mike DuPont, Thomas Hawk and 60 other people liked this

Hah, I'm going to click like on this, which will cause the link to come to here. Here's why I do it: the conversation is important, not just the link (often). 2. clicking "like" in friendfeed is a LOT better than RT'ing for many reasons (easier to search, it spreads news to my friendfeeders, etc). 3. I want you to come to friendfeed because friendfeed is a better place to talk about the news than Twitter is. - Robert Scoble

I provide this service for free to everyone so I will continue doing it in this way. - Robert Scoble

Now that we have real time chat on items it's even more important to come over to friiendfeed, by the way. - Robert Scoble

I don't mind that...what I hate is when someone posts stuff from Digg or whatever making me do extra work with no value add. - Alex Scoble

Here's the real time chat about this item, by the way: http://beta.friendfeed.com/dsilver... - Robert Scoble

I agree with you but I do know that Dwight is adamant about using Twitter over FF. - Trish R

Trish: well when Dwight insists on using an inferior conversation tool he has no right to complain. - Robert Scoble

May be we need a friendfeed bar that will frame the actual source and show the real time conversations on the top :) - Kiran Patchigolla

We should post this link on his technology page on the Chronicle website, LOL. - Trish R

I understand his frustration. It can be ridiculous sometimes. - Michael Fidler

Interesting that Dwight hasn't shown up here yet. Heheh. - Robert Scoble

I find it annoying, but I completely understand why you do it. It makes sense to point someone towards the entire story (comments included) and not just the link, because that's what FriendFeed is all about. - Lee Ingram

"inferior conversation tool?" maybe the value you get is different from the value he gets. that doesn't make one better than the other. It's easy for you to link a small URL to the source and another to the discussion. Maybe we don't all get paid by our sponsors to converse on the real live web. Some of us get paid to work the shoe leather and find the news that is discussed here. - Andrew Feinberg

Yeah but how hard is it to ignore the comments and click the second link to the actual story? Takes an extra second or two? Bill it! ;) - Lee Ingram

Here's a link to the conversation I was thinking of re: Dwight's view of FF vs Twitter: http://beta.friendfeed.com/dsilver... - Trish R

Andrew: friendfeed does not make it easy to do that. I have one choice: either link to friendfeed or link to the source URL. I've decided that because it's me doing the work I'm going to link to friendfeed first. The conversation is more important many times than the source material. - Robert Scoble

w/ friendfeed's send to twitter capability it's easy to "nudge" someone to come participate in a thread they initiated ;) - mike "glemak" dunn

Mike: yeah. Dwight really needs to see how much better this is for conversations than Twitter. Dwight is a professional journalist, which is why I responded to his complaint. - Robert Scoble

Could be worse, Friendfeed could do a diggbar-esque kind of deal. - Andrew Leahey

Gad, don't even think such things @Andrew - ɐ ɯıʞ sıɹɥɔ

lol - yes he is robert, though not typical of traditional journalist, he is participating - and he's a co-worker of mine ;) - mike "glemak" dunn

Got to agree with Robert on this one. Have been getting lots of value by visiting friendfeed and catch the conversation around link & tweet all in one place. Brilliant tool. Going to use this more often! - Peter du Toit (S.Africa)

I like Dwight a lot, too, and he DOES participate. He just prefers to participate through Twitter than FF. - Trish R

Robert: I meant take the time to insert a tinyurl-type link to each in your tweetstream. - Andrew Feinberg

Why should he take the time to do that? - Michael McKean

I had the same discussion with a twitter follower (a couple of them actually) and so I turned off the friendfeed comments posting to twitter by default, but like Robert, I click like on the FF item so that my twitter followers will come and participate in the discussion here. So, I felt obligated to "like" this item as well. I also don't care if people don't like to look through two links. If I didn't want you to come to the discussion, I would just post the link to twitter. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

And to prove the effectiveness of the Friendfeed links, I had 2 comments on twitter before I finished typing the above comment. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Rob: what's funny is I started the friendfeed to Twitter thing as a protest against Twitter. Since doing that I've gotten 15,000 more followers. Why? People who post good content get followed. My friendfeed likes are the best content on the web right now http://beta.friendfeed.com/scoblei... - Robert Scoble

Andrew: if you pay me $1 each, I'll do that. There's no way I'm taking the time to do that otherwise. Sorry. - Robert Scoble

It would be nice if we could choose which likes get sent to Twitter. - Michael McKean

Michael: I'd like that too. I'd also like to customize the message that gets sent through too. - Robert Scoble

Having to click on two links to get the article annoyed me at first, too, until I started checking out the conversation on FF. It can and often does add value. Thanks, Robert! - Dan Walters

Dan Walters, I totally agree, and think of it this way... if you're coming from friendfeed you only need to click once to get to the article, and the conversation's right in front of you... the two clicks is only an inconvenience for those coming from twitter (and who in their right mind would be doing that anyways?) - Chris Heath

i agree that conversation if often at least as important as the link. that's what motivated us to create amplify.com. hate to plug my own service like this, but it seemed so relevant to the conversation that i thought it would be appropriate. - eric goldstein

Robert: That IS funny. It's certainly worked. The "Liked" & "via FriendFeed" plus the video you made on how to use FF & Tweetdeck together to watch gajillions of tweets are what got me here in the first place. It's taken a little bit to get ramped up to really use FF (still not quite there) but the more I use it, the more valuable it is to me. And the less value I see in twitter as an "end" - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Michael & Robert: There's been a couple of discussions about both the word "Liked" (I don't always actually like it, and I'm sick of the twitter people flaming me for liking horrible things) and there's also been some discussion on putting a "per Like" option on the post to twitter. Would be nice if likes and comments could go out to identi.ca too :) Would love to see both of those on the comments. I would post more comments outbound that way -Twits get upset during fast multi-comment discussions. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Chris: The twitter people think it's an inconvenience because they don't understand how to do anything but mindlessly click links. There's such a big crowd there that are trying to game their twitter stats, and game other services like digg -so they just want fast links that they can quick see if they can/want to reshare or retweet. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

guruvan, the 'liked' issue is something that i'm pretty sure friendfeed is aware of as an issue (not sure how far up in priority it is) - and all those people you mention 'gaming' and playing the system(s) ... well F-em - i could care less what they care about... there's value in sending someone here instead of directly to a link .... if they can't see that then why should i care what they have to say about it... (i realize we're in agreement here, just ranting at the end of the day) - :-) - Chris Heath

Chris: Rant Away. I had to like this item just to piss off a few twits ;) heh. And we are in agreement. There's MORE value in sending someone here than directly. A) I like conversation better than just reading article after article, and B) FF may get another user. And that, I think, make us all happy - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Robert: I am from the make-things-as-easy-for-the-user-as-possible. When I see a link in Twitter (or anywhere, actually), I expect to click on it and get what I want, not have to go through some gateway. Yeah, there may be a conversation going on here, but guess what: That very likely is not what I'm interested in when I click that link. I want the info that was promised. And, if I want a conversation, I likely am going to find it at the source, providing the source is two-way (and most are, these days). - Dwight Silverman

Dwight: sorry I totally disagree and because I am quite consistent you will know what you are getting. - Robert Scoble

Sorry, hit return too fast... This is a major reason why I find Friendfeed far more irritating than Twitter. It adds an unnecessary layer of complexity - sometimes multiple layers. My time and attention is valuable. Let me direct both DIRECTLY, rather than through some middleman. - Dwight Silverman

I know you disagree, Robert. You've become quite the FFF (Friendfeed Fanboy), and that's fine. But don't presume you're doing everyone a favor by directing them through FF, because you're not. Sometimes, it just gets in folks' way. - Dwight Silverman

Dwight: if you want to go direct just read my friendfeed like feed at http://beta.friendfeed.com/scoblei... --everything there goes directly to source. I will never understand why you insist reading me on an inferior service. - Robert Scoble

"an inferior service"? Hopefully you're yanking my chain. Either that, or you just descended into a bad parody of the Mac vs. PC ads. - Dwight Silverman

Dwight: Furthermore, certainly someone on Twitter has posted a link to most of the same articles...you could follow them and get right to the source. Just like some of my followers don't care for the links from FF, I personally don't care for the constant noise-tweets from blip.fm. Twitter is a free place. Listen to and post what you want. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Dwight: I am NOT yanking your chain. Twitter is a totally inferior service for a whole lot of reasons. I am getting fail whales every 20 refreshes lately. Inferior. The search doesn't work nearly as well. Inferior. I can permalink to conversations here, not on Twitter. Inferior. I can search JUST your stuff you've liked, not on Twitter. Inferior. I can see your comments in live time, not on Twitter. Inferior. Your comments are threaded here, not on Twitter. Inferior. - Robert Scoble

I can retweet here (we call that "liking") in one click here, on Twitter a retweet takes four to six clicks unless you use a tool. Inferior. - Robert Scoble

I can click to a database of all my likes, er, retweets here, and you can see all the commentary about those likes here. You can't do that on Twitter. Twitter is INFERIOR and anyone who says it is better is just plain misinformed. - Robert Scoble

And if that gets me marked as a "friend feed fanboy" well, then, tough. Are you a journalist or a Twitter fanboy? - Robert Scoble

The conversation here is FAR MORE important than the original link in many cases. In many cases I click "like" to make sure that a conversation happens. If you don't like that, tough. When you pay me for my "work" here online you can complain. Until then, just unfollow or follow. Those are your two choices. - Robert Scoble

You can like it in one click, and two whole networks of people found out about it. THAT is superior IMO - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Rob: exactly. It's hyper efficient. Anyone who asks me to do more work without paying me is a jerk, IMO. Especially when doing that additional work results in less utility. By the way, since adding my friendfeed "likes" to Twitter I have gotten 15,000 new followers. So, the followers have spoken. - Robert Scoble

I think you do plenty for free as it is ;) Many of us in your debt I imagine (If for no other reason that the food for thought which creates our blog articles, and potentially software dev projects and so on - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Excellent point all! Thanks for pointing all that out Robert. - BASEnet

Ah, I see I have wandered into church. Forgive me for disturbing y'all's worship. I'll head back to the bar. Later. - Dwight Silverman

I am debating turning the "Twitter to --> FF instead of source link" button soon. This is an interesting conversation. When I get home and on a non-IE6 computer I can check out the live convo. - Amani

Dwight: someday you'll see the light. :-) By the way, THIS is the bar. You just left the church. I use the service that is technically superior and provably so. YOU are the one who is sticking with religion and calling ME a "fan boy." Geesh. Twitter fanboy, I guess. - Robert Scoble

I love how people stick with inferior technology despite all the facts. Thanks afterDARK. I could keep going, too. Friendfeed has filters. Neither Facebook or Twitter do. Friendfeed has decentralized moderation of conversation and is very spam resistant. Something that no other online service has cloned yet. Friendfeed has rooms, er, feeds, that can be private. The DM features here are far superior to Twitter's too, and provably so. But, no, I guess I just got schooled by a "TwitterFanboy." - Robert Scoble

Personally I would rather come to friendfeed through a link to get to a story because then I can talk to people about the story o Friendfeed. I think Dwight is just lazy. - Mathew™ one of a kind

Robert: I haven't really engaged in whether one is better than the other. What I AM is a fanboy of simplicity. I believe in making things as simple for the user as possible. When I offer a link (on any service), it's directly to the source. I would consider it an imposition to send them through a gateway. All I'd like is a simple link. Anyway, I am behind on a project. Nice chatting with you folks. Later. - Dwight Silverman

Since I represent a news magazine show on a public access station and online, I need to remain, "fair & balanced" cough-cough, in my comments. I use and like all the services, just like Robert, but since using ff most often, I have certainly come to appreciate its "pro's" over the competition. - BASEnet

Dwight, you're missing the point. We DON'T WANT to link you directly to the site. If we did, we would share the link through another service. The Like to direct you to here is the simplest way to get the twitter users to engage in the full conversation. If you don't like the ff.im links, DON'T CLICK THEM. It's an imposition on US to listen to you bitching. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Well, I can actually see where Dwight is coming from and I like both FF and Twitter. Sometimes though, you have to go with where the convos you're most interested in are at, irrespective of the service. For tech geeks, FF wins hands down, but for others that may not be the case. - Sally Church

Sally: here is the rub. I am most interested in talking with early adopter geeks who care about using the best tools. So, someone who thinks Twitter is better than friendfeed? Not for me, thank you. And anyway I have gained 15,000 Twitter followers since sending my like stream over there. So I will go with them. - Robert Scoble

You can see from my feed here, and my tweetstream that I spend plenty of time on both. I have both open pretty much all day long. But honestly, I usually share things in such a way that they get the most views from my friends as possible. So, when I discover an item, I tend to "Share on Facebook" then it goes there, here, and out to twitter. If I could have FF posting outbound to FB I would share it here so that the FB people would come here too. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Liked for the comments. You know, this wouldn't be such an issue if FriendFeed had their own bar frame showing number of comments, number of likes, and the latest comment, updating in real-time. Then the ff.im link could bring someone straight to the linked content, with the bar keeping the person in-touch with the conversation. - Chris, Taskerrific Guy

When you're reading thousands of pieces of information the last thing you want to do is click a link. Slows down information filtering quite a bit. - Richard A.

Robert: I can see and appreciate that, I'm just saying that for others their definition may be different, either in terms of the types of people they interact with or the topics of conversation. I love the science and tech stuff here, for example, but my Pharma and real life friends prefer Twitter and Facebook. Drives me up the wall cos your points on ease of convo are bang on. - Sally Church

Sally: My point still remains: It's not our "duty" to provide other people with the links they want. It's our "duty" to provide them with the links WE want. If they don't like the links, don't click on 'em. On twitter, if you follow the right people it's only going to be a few minutes until someone posts a different link to the same information. At least that's what I see.But then, Dwight has some 5000+ fans and doesn't follow but 650 people. Not a surplus of wealth of information in his timeline. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

Rob: Agreed but I wasn't talking about links. I get frustrated because I can't convince more friends to use FF over Twitter or FB. They get bewildered by FF for some reason, I get ratty because they force me to engage with them in a suboptimal environment (for me). C'est la vie. - Sally Church

Well, I think there's no question about it: Friendfeed is fairly complex, and somewhat overwhelming to the first-time users. One of the things to do is have a pile of useful example filters that look at more than just the tech-news. If/when we can have "shareable" filters (in a way other than a link) especially ones that have the realtime update, the value will become readily apparent, and help to negate some of the "first time user fear" - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

AND: If we could just have the "import the rest of my twitter friends as invisible users" tool then it would be all over. They could easily just start with FriendFeed as a really useful twitter client, and grow their usage from that point. - guruvan (Rob Nelson)

liking that dwight dropped by to converse, understand his perspective even though i too am a huge ff fanboy - its not for everyone and lots of folks love the simplicity of twitter, which is also not for everyone - especially me ;) - mike "glemak" dunn

i can see dwight's point, but i don't agree with it. and Robert, are you going to turn those posts into an "inferior" blog post? i think you should ... it would be a great post! -- remember controversy is good for ratings ;-) - Chris Heath

Blog? What is that? Not sure I need to do anything else to get my point of view across. - Robert Scoble

well if you don't then i just might... off to bed for now tho... c u 2moro kthxbai! - Chris Heath