I don't believe the previous incidents negate Thomas' poor treatment by SFMOMA, but interesting to get another take - Duncan Riley from Bookmarklet

largely accurately written with the exception of the altercation between Alex the security guard and I. No words were exchanged before he came out of the building with his middle finger blazing. His hand is even still on the door as he exited the building to come confront me. http://www.flickr.com/photos... - Thomas Hawk

who is "destiny" and why I can't I find out more about the author of this article that is linkedin here ? Those who are behind a pseudonym and without a face are always suspicious in my eyes. AND those who dont take the time to do research and blindly just post a link without doing a little bit of 'due diligence' certainly lose creditablity in my eyes. Sorry, let the fact be known. Its not just about traffic and eyeballs. The community expects much more , in these type of character convos !! - Peter Dawson

You know, Blint sort of looks like John Malkovich - Mattb4rd

<cont> I see the problem and its us- failing to keep equilibrium amongst ourselves - Peter Dawson

The longer this story keeps rolling on without SF MOMA being involved in the conversation the worse it gets for them. Guess they should read my brother's book. You don't think that this sort of thing can have an impact? Ask Kryptonite how much of an impact a viral internet story can have on a business. - Alex Scoble

Yeah, Peter... people with psuedonyms like "Thomas Hawk"... @Alex... I guess the people of San Francisco will just have to get their fix of large collections of modern art elsewhere. It's such a competitive field. - Jason Carreira

@Sean, yeah, I hate people with Authority like Jill Greenberg. Good thing Thomas is here to protect us from artists whom he disagrees with or they might use their authority to force us to look at artwork. - Jason Carreira

Tom: It's ok to take a picture of a building... or a lake, or even a sculpture in a museum... of course!! But guess what? It is poor form to take someone's picture without their consent... and then to bully them when they tell you to stop... wow. I'm not impressed. Don't make it sound like you're some innocent photographer who gets blindsided... you antagonize human beings with your lens the same way security does with their badges and I think it's a shame so many smart people support you for it. - Matt Shaulis

I have mixed opinons on this. I want him to be able to take photographs of almost whatever he chooses, but it sounds like he's always looking for a fight. Its almost like this is his mission rather than the photography or maybe his photography is about making people uncomfortable with his photography. Either way, it feels too beligerent, but I used to be that beligerent too, so who am I to judge. - Brad Nickel

I shoot every single day of my life. hundreds of photos every single day. Inevitably I end up in conflicts from time to time. For every conflict I've blogged about there are dozens of others that were handled amicably. The vast majority are. I have no interest in creating conflict, I find it stressful and upsetting actually. Every so often though one of the conflicts becomes especially egregious and those I've tended to blog. - Thomas Hawk

If you want to read what a typical non-blogged conflict looks like you can read this article that Evan Ratcliff wrote on my photography for Wired Magazine. http://www.atavistic.org/evan... Evan witnessed one first hand while following me around shooting one day. Much less drama, nothing blogged, but typical of what I routinely run into while out and about shooting. - Thomas Hawk

@Brad That's my problem with "Thomas"... I want everyone to be able to take photographs too, but picking fights and being belligerent like this does more to harm the cause of photography than to help it. - Jason Carreira

@Thomas - Fair enough and thanks for replying. I have to say, that being out here on the periphery just kind of taking in pieces of the story in FriendFeed and blog snippet world, you come across as a bit angry in general. I think the behavior towards you has been ridiculous as well, but my impression definitely was a bit different than the explaination you just gave. Thanks for providing it, it helps. I suspect that maybe you have so much hassle, that you might give the impression you are ready for a fight - Brad Nickel

@Brad, I've been on Flickr for a long time and seen TH do this several times over different issues. I also know a lot of photographers who shoot street photography and somehow they aren't getting thrown out of places, getting people fired, etc. That's where I'm coming from, because that's specific to "Thomas", even though he likes to play it up as a war against photography. - Jason Carreira

I don't pick fights Jason, I hold my ground when I'm in the right. And in the most extreme cases I blog it. I'm never the one confronting them. It always starts with them telling me I can't photograph something that I feel that I can. How it escalates from there is largely up to them. As said before the vast majority never escalate and are worked out without any scene or drama whatsoever. - Thomas Hawk

Amazing how it just happens with you. Other street photographers aren't getting escorted out by security guards. - Jason Carreira

@Jason, Sure seemed that way to me too, but hopefully this will be a lesson for everyone involved to step back when things heat up, unless they like what came out of it. - Brad Nickel

so a man with a history of self importance and employee harassment who routinely violates museum rules now wants us to all rally around him and become part of his new lynch mob? To hell with that. I said it before - we have NO idea what actually happened and no reason to believe Thomas was not a beligerant jerk when approached. - Soulhuntre from twhirl

However when I'm physically assaulted, flipped the bird, called a public pervert in a crowded atrium and without being given a chance to show my innocence when I have proof, etc. I don't just stand there and take it. They drew first blood. I blog those most egregious cases. You want to see an example of a positive interaction? Check out this link here: http://www.flickr.com/photos... - Thomas Hawk

Thomas - itsimply doesn't matter even a little tiny bit. If someone asks you (or even TELLS you) to not take their picture you need to respect that. - Matt Shaulis

Anyone who deal in security deals with this stuff. It used to be "I'll write a letter to the newspaper" then became "I'll sue you!" now it's "I'll blog about you" which is the same thing as yelling "I'll tell Scoble" ( kidding ).. Everyone who is ever tossed out of someplace starts yelling about being assaulted. The guy has a history of picking fights and being belligerent... why should we assume he wasn't doing that here? - Soulhuntre

Jason: I'd suggest you read up on WinExtra for Steven's run down on how Thomas was "late to the party" here - folks getting tossed out for all sorts of innocent documentations of life that end up on the internet is pretty commonplace. I don't get why some people are so "offended" by this incident. Not every issue needs a devil's advocate. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

Last comment - it takes more than a blog and a digital camera to make someone a "hero", ya know? This guy wasn't risking his life for free speech or fighting "the man". - Soulhuntre

Matt, the argument here is law vs. common courtesy. The law says you have no reasonable expectation of privacy on the street. Common courtesy dictates that if someone asks you to stop doing something that makes them uncomfortable, you do so. - Cyndy

@Thomas the description I read from a non-involved employee was that you were asked many times (as many as 10 times) to stop taking pictures. The employees do not have an option to leave to escape your camera lens, so what were they supposed to do? Of course Blint wasn't going to look at your pictures. At the point they'd asked you to stop more than once and you'd continued, you were being kicked out for your behavior, not your pictures. - Jason Carreira

@Thomas - If the path so far to reaching 1M photos is any indication of what future conflict will escalate to then retaining counsel is probably in order... and a healthy insurance policy on your photo gear. Most of the gonzo videos of photographers in police states do not end well for the gear. Physical assault of a person over a photo seems to be relegated to paparazzi -- but that's something to keep in mind if a variety of less civil people creep into your works even if you are 100% "in the right". - Jay Cuthrell

@Mark, I'd suggest you do some research on "Thomas"'s past before you jump to his defense. Why do the other photographers I know who do a LOT of street photography not get kicked out of places repeatedly? Oh, yeah, it's because they're courteous and they aren't looking to cause an incident. - Jason Carreira

Cyncy.... you are incorrect. The law in over 1/2 the states in the US explicity PROTECTS my right to expectation of privacy and publicity... even (and especially) in public. Posting my picture on the web without my permission violates my rights of publicity. SO it's both law and courtesy. (and in some cases personal safety... one day someone is going to beat his ass.) - Matt Shaulis

Soulhuntre, I don't claim to be a hero. I'm just doing my thing -- doing what I do. 99% of the time this is without altercation, but it happens. And Mark's right it happens *all the time* and not just to me. And for every other incident that's blogged about by Carlos Miller or Jeremy Brooks or Andy Carvin or hundreds of others that have written about it much of it goes unreported or photographers simply blindly obey an authority figure and walk the other way. - Thomas Hawk

I could fill this thread with links to at least 100 other examples of it happening to other people not named Thomas Hawk. - Thomas Hawk

Individual incidents != pattern of behavior - Jason Carreira

How many is this for you now "Thomas"? 4? 5? Do we count Jill Greenberg? Do we count your rants about censorship on Flickr? - Jason Carreira

Thomas Hawk: So just because you are not alone in your harassment of others makes it ok? 99% of the time bullies in school get the nerds lunch money, does that make it ok? - Matt Shaulis

@Thomas, I know you think you're doing a good thing... If I say "Thanks for protecting the rights of photographers. You've done your job, leave it to someone else now", will you stop harassing people on our behalf? kthxbai - Jason Carreira

Jason I'm allowed to blog about anything I want. Jill Greenberg and censorship on Flickr have nothing to do with my photography nor was I the only person expressing strong opinions in either case. Hell, the BBC covered the Flickr censorship story as did dozens of other publications. Same with Greenberg. Are you suggesting that because I can be opinionated that I shouldn't be allowed to blog about problems I run into with abusive security guards? - Thomas Hawk

So Thomas, are you contending that he did not talk to you, nor did you snap his photo until after he came out of the rear of the building got in an argument and he flipped you off? You didn't even point the camera in his general direction until he came flying out the building middle finger a'blazin? - Adam Weiss

Matt, actually the law does not. In every state in the U.S. the rule is simple, if you are in public then there is no expectation of privacy. When Photographer Philip-Lorca diCorcia used a *hidden* camera to take a photo of Hasidic Erno Nussenzweig it went all the way to the NY Supreme Court but the judgment was clear. Anyone can be photographed in public. http://www.nyc24.org/2006... - Thomas Hawk

Geeze, this is still going? Why? The Museum made a comment, they said they aren't saying anymore. Thomas posted what he felt and everyone else got in their 0.02 as well. Hopefully, people learned something from both parties involved on how not to handle a situation...how not to handle a situation with a patron in public and not to write about your experience when you're still angry. It's over now. - Candace

and for what it's worth 99% of the time someone asks me not to photograph them I don't. And I've deleted dozens of photos after the fact that people have asked me to on Flickr simply because they asked -- I have no problem with that. I have no problem respecting people's desire not to be photographed. But once they are a prick, like I said, they drew first blood. - Thomas Hawk

And also for what it's worth in all this I do regret using Simon Blint's name in my post. If I had it to do over again I wouldn't have done that. I was angry and mad and I could have blogged about it more responsibly. - Thomas Hawk

Adam that is *exactly* what I'm saying. I was shooting the exterior of the building and before any words were exchanged he came out of the building flipping me off *immediately*. Look at his hand, he's coming out the door. How could we have a conversation when he was inside and I was outside. We couldn't and we didn't. He saw me shooting the building, he came out flipping me off and the conflict emerged from there. - Thomas Hawk

@TH "because I can be opinionated that I shouldn't be allowed to blog " - yes thats what the wolves r saying.. which part is thick in the skull ..right or left ? The more you interact, the less you will get out of it. IMO, drop the convo, move on. There are too many opinion's that will be rendered. You have won a battle on this round, there is very little that you can still contribute within this incident. The war between right vs wrong still looms . conserve your energy for the next round, wherever !! - Peter Dawson

The photostream shows another photo from a few minutes earlier with him flipping your camera off from inside the building. Are you honestly contending that he was flipping you off, rather than responding to having a camera be pointed at him? - Adam Weiss

Thomas: that is a New York case... not a US Supreme Court case... so in NY the rule is clear... i said over 1/2 the states... not ALL of the states. Besides the fact is that ruling is unethical and just waiting to be overturned by the US Supreme Court, which will make it officially illegal in all 50 states... he lost his appeal only because he did not file his initial complaint in a timely enough fashion... i would be very careful if you are planning on using it in your legal defense when you are sued. ;) - Matt Shaulis

It's pretty simple folks. If you don't like what Thomas has to say, then don't read it. No one is forcing anyone to read his blog, nor is anyone forcing you to follow him on any social network. I think many people just like conflict. - Jeff P. Henderson

Jeff... i think people just like to stand on the side of justice when they feel a fellow citizen has been violated... people are all over the web calling Tom a hero and a freedom fighter... for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction... right? - Matt Shaulis

@jeff: Some people may like conflict. Others may just get really pissed off when they see their friends lose their jobs due to his actions. - Adam Weiss

Adam, that is what I'm saying. Look at the photo from earlier. http://www.flickr.com/photos... What am I shooting there. I'm shooting a pair of revolving doors that I've arranged in symmetry -- again, from the outside of the building. What is he doing? He's getting in my photo and flipping me off. He didn't need to be standing right there. He didn't show up in my photo until after I'd started shooting it. I can show you versions of that shot without him in it. - Thomas Hawk

and then after flipping me off from inside the building, he comes out and flips me off as he's coming out of the building to tell me I can't take photos of the building. He may not have liked me taking photos of the building. He may have thought I was taking photos of him in the building, whatever. I'm allowed to take photos of the exterior of a building. It was his confrontational attitude as evidenced by the finger that brought on the blog post in that case. - Thomas Hawk

I used to work in that building. They station guards there in the afternoon when the exit doors get heavy traffic. - Adam Weiss

Matt, I'm not a lawyer but I stand by my contention that you can shoot anyone you like in public and I'll happily take my chances in court with anyone who wishes to contest it. Here is an opinion from an actual lawyer though. http://www.krages.com/ThePhot... - Thomas Hawk

You were traumatized by a security guard as a kid or something... clearly... ;) just kiddin'... hehehe. - Matt Shaulis

And no, you're not allowed to take photos from there. That park is private property. I find it incredible to this day that you still pretend to be ignorant to that fact. Yes, it's poorly marked. But so are all the other psuedo-public parks attached to office buildings in the financial district. I knew about them when I used to take pictures of buildings, and this was even in the pre-9/11 era when getting hassled was rare. - Adam Weiss

Some people just go looking for conflict. They love complaining to supervisors, they live for their ability to write letters to editors and "fight the good fight". Outrage and playing the victim gives them the moral authority to act any way they wish. Now, I don't know TH from Adam and he might be mister temperance. but that's the point, I don't know and he could easily be a jerk. Frankly "social networking" needs to be more than an instant outrage machine if it is ever going to really effect change. - Soulhuntre

Adam, I'm not sure what to say to you. I could upload a photo of the doors without Alex in it but I still don't think that this would change your opinion. But for argument's sake, let's just say he was stationed there. I'm just saying if it were me and some guy outside was shooting the exterior of the building and I didn't want to be in the shot, I'd turn around and have my back to him, not flip him off for the camera and then come outside and hassle him. - Thomas Hawk

@soulhuntre: I look at it this way: One day a highly sophisticated alien race will visit and suck down and review the whole Internet in about ten minutes. During the first five, they'll decide we're actually alright. During the second five, they'll have scrolled down to the comments, found the blogs and read the mailing lists. During the third five... well there wouldn't be a third five, for us anyway... - Adam Weiss

Opinons from lawyers, cool... here is another: http://www.photosecrets.com/tips... it is my understanding that taking the photo is not a problem, publishing it is. (even though, forget the law, it's morally wrong to shoot first and ask questions later... am i right?) - Matt Shaulis

Adam, it doesn't matter that it's private property. It's *public space* This issue was more recently addressed by Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton when bloggers like Andy Carvin were being kicked out of DC's Union Station, also private property, but *public space*. When a property owner designates an area as *public space* they lose their ability to restrict general public activity there. This has been upheld in court as well. Watch this video. http://www.myfoxdc.com/myfox... - Thomas Hawk

Well Thomas, you're a photographer! Of course you're not going to mind so much. Don't you think having that same expectation of others is unreasonable? I wish I was able to construct an abstract analogy that would help you to understand what it would be like to have someone show up at your workplace and engage in an activity that makes you feel uncomfortable. - Adam Weiss

It is become more and more likely, I think, that TH is a far from innocent participant in this altercation. - Soulhuntre from twhirl

Matt, you are certainly entitled to your opinion that "it's morally wrong to shoot first and ask questions later." But as you note, it's not illegal and this "moral" certainly contradicts many of the finest photographers who have ever lived. Henri Cartier-Bresson, considered by many as the finest photographer who ever lived (and who's photos hang in the SF MOMA) shot thousands of people without ever asking their permission. A whole canon of street photography is based on this. - Thomas Hawk

Thomas... never heard of him. Considered by me to be a prick, it sounds like. - Matt Shaulis

And I'm not even going to get into Bruce Gilden, who shoots for Magnum, generally regarded as the most highly regarded photography agency in the world (also founded by Cartier-Bresson). http://thomashawk.com/2008... Your morals may say that you ought not shoot someone without permission, but mine do not, nor does the established photographic community recognize your "morality." - Thomas Hawk

Matt, you are mistaken. While you are not allowed to publish someone's likeness *commercially* (for instance I can't take a photo of you and then publish it next to an ad that says Matt endorses Crest toothpase or sell it for stock photography without a model release), both the arts and journalism have been given editorial exemption, hence Philip-Lorca diCorcia's ability to sell a print of his photo for thousands of dollars without his subjects permission or desire. - Thomas Hawk

that's it guys. I'm out. I told myself that I wasn't even going to get into any of this if it had to do with Simon Blint anymore. I turned down an interview request for ABC TV, etc. over it. I'm done with it. I probably shouldn't have even chimed in here tonight. But I'm now going to put down the internet and go spend time with my wife. This is all from me on the Simon Blint case. As far as I'm concerned it's done. On to other things. - Thomas Hawk

I am still not sure if I like this or not but it does raise some points that have gotten quite a few to speak their opinion on it. I have been on both sides of the lens and just move my face out of the frame if I don't wish to be photographed. Yes, I was a doorman for a while at Tipitina's and the now defunct Muddy Waters. I am glad that Thomas' maturity won out over his ego and am pleased that he wishes that he didn't call someone out by name when he himself operates under a pseudonym. - Mathew A. Koeneker

Yes, I know that is for work reasons. I forgot the length of comment restrictions. - Mathew A. Koeneker

wow... i wonder how the established photographic community would feel about how you've represented them here this evening. - Matt Shaulis

I just love the idea of someone screaming "Don't move or I'll blog you". It ranks up there with all the "My brothers a lawyer" cops get all the time :) And no, I'm not saying this incident happened exactly like that... but it sure seems to be a possibility. - Soulhuntre

@Thomas, thanks for chiming in! I think your input and links were valuable to those who are interested in the topic. It's appalling how miss informed the general public is with respcet to the freedoms and laws regarding public photography. I think we have seen discussed here tonight at least the top 5 or so misconceptions most people have about public photography. (Hey I smell a topic for a future blog post.) - Jeff P. Henderson

@Matt, here is what John Harrington, a professional photographer and photo business expert had to say about the incident. http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/2008... - Jeff P. Henderson

@Matt, here's another http://www.photoattorney.com/2008... - Jeff P. Henderson

Thank you Thomas for sharing your opinion tonight. - Michael

@Jason If you are shooting on the street, it is just a matter of time before somebody sees you and thinks that they can tell you to stop. People confuse "I don't want you to do that" with "You can't do that". In the USA, in public, you can pretty much take a picture of whatever you can see. That's the way it is. I repsect Thomas for being willing to subject himself to ridicule by people that don't understand that. - Jeremy Brooks

@Jeff - Harrington lost my respect at this line..."decides that he is going to call in the museum's private Gestapo". The second link once again simply assumes TH's account is complete and accurate and piles on with the "hero" thing. - Soulhuntre

What I love about this conversation is watching people complain about lynch mobs while doing their best impression of one. It's like ironic street theater with lots of sarcastic quotation marks. - Roger Benningfield

@Thomas, I think it's pretty cool of you to link to that article on your blog, because it has BALANCE, which I often find lacking on the blogosphere. - Owen Byrne

He had no right to throw Hawk out without looking at his photos at the very least. I hope that guys life has been hell since this all happened. - Mathew™ one of a kind

I'm disappointed the point that TH has allowed the personal information of Mr. Blint to be released to the mob while hiding behind a false name seems to have been lost on most people commenting on this story. Either TH does not require his approval for each comment posted on his site or he approves each and every comment that is posted. Either way it is irresponsible for him to allow the personal information of Mr. Blint to be released when it should have been immediately deleted or edited removing the information before the comment was even posted. Better yet after seeing the comment TH should have stated that this type of behavior is not acceptable which would have helped prevent the spread of Mr Blint's personal information to other sites. Instead he allowed the information to spread and then deletes the comment after the fact. - Michael Biven

@MichaelBiven- I see some TLC from Lane Hartwell has you feeling better. - Mrsth

I personally see the behavior -- no matter what the actual circumstances were -- being counter-productive for photography rights. There are surely many museums (and other orgs) contemplating opening up their no photography policies who will look at this kind of thing and say, you know what, it's easier to not allow photography at all. The policy is obvious, easy to understand, and easy to enforce. - HelloThere

Another aspect of this is no matter how much of a jerk Blint might have been, no one deserves to have an internet mob sicked on them to the point they can't use their phone and are literally concerned about their personal safety and having their home accosted. I wonder how that might feel for Andrew Peterson, and his wife and kids, if that kind of thing were happening to him. EVEN IF Blint had it coming. - HelloThere

We've all seen this kind of power-trip behavior from security guards before, and it sucks to be the recipient of it. But Andrew Peterson also wields quite a bit of power/influence himself, which is proven by his threat to blog about the incident. It seems to me that he's suffering from the same power-trippiness that pisses him off so much. And yes, I know there is a difference when the other person started it, but there's also a way to be a bigger man than that, and to wield power proportionately. - HelloThere

Another really interesting aspect of this is the real possibility of affecting SFMOMA revenue. Now some might argue that they deserved it, but as someone who appreciates art and understands what a struggle it can be for artists and art institutions today, I would think that the possibility of inflicting damage on the institution isn't something a fellow artist would condone. I feel this is true REGARDLESS of what actually happened that day. - HelloThere

Dang. I think I just saw someone get "outed" on FF. - Mathew A. Koeneker