Science Progress is amazing. I subscribe to only the best posts via AideRSS, which I can't recommend highly enough for those of us without enough time: http://www.aiderss.com/rss/gre... - Donnie Berkholz
"Like" as in "I like that someone noticed this and is still pushing the issue". - Andrew Perry
Well, if it's tre that the odds of someone getting a tenure track position by 35 are only 7%, there's only one solution: make PhD programs a mandatory two decade ordeal! That should get most people past 35! - Todd Harris via twhirl
"In 2007, two hundred scientists received six or more NIH grants, and a single investigator won 32 grants, while many others got close to ten." This sounds ridiculous. It is clear that this investigator cannot be coordinating closely all those projects. - Pedro Beltrao
It's a classic catch-22. Increasingly, funding consists of large grants to established researchers with stellar track records. However, to become established and build a track record, you need funding - which you can't get. I'd actually like to see postdocs desert academia en masse; let's see where the big bosses would be without their slave labour. - Neil Saunders
I've always wondered how science would work with a more active 'union' for PhD students and/or PostDocs .... if they went on strike how would things pan out ... it's not like public transport employees or a big building project with tight deadlines ... the 'general public' probably wouldn't notice for years. Hence the level of exploitation that occurs (not saying every student/postdoc is exploited, but many are, and I think the lack of any power in a stop-work is a large part of it). - Andrew Perry
I still get a little bugged by the assumption that PhD = career in academia - Deepak
Yeah, I've often wondered how long it would take for anyone to notice if academic researchers went on strike :) - Neil Saunders
Thing is, the rules are different in academia. Basically, if you're not independently-funded, you don't count and are not free to pursue your own agenda. So we end up working for successful group leaders and furthering their careers, rather than our own. I personally think it's wrong that senior researchers get credit for minimal input, solely because they hold the grant, but that's how it is. - Neil Saunders
Neil ... one of the many reasons I wasn't interested in academia. In a good company, you get recognized (as does your manager) when you do well. In academia, it seems like the managers (PIs) get undue credit ... nothing wrong with academic science. I quite envy the freedom from time to time, but there's a lot more - Deepak
@Neil: don't disagree with you, but just to play DA: it's brutal to get and hold onto a lab as a PI, and once you're there it takes all your time and energy just to hang on. (Unless you're one of the silver-spoon Big Shots, but there are a lot more small, struggling labs than big fat ones.) So there's a PI catch-22 as well: you have to take credit for what your lab does, or you get no credit at all. I keep wondering whether Pawel and his freelancing ideas might not be a viable alternative model... - Bill Hooker
@Bill - don't disagree with you either. In theory, a PI is rewarded for their previous hard work, skills in organisation, directing research, mentoring and so on. Sometimes, it even works out like that :) However, I do think we've entered an era where the system actively favours established researchers and actively discriminates against young, early-career scientists. I think it's untenable and would like to see it proved so by people voting with their feet and getting out. - Neil Saunders
I think there's definitely a "rich-get-richer" thing going on. I also think that competition has reached the point -- 7%! -- where we might as well draw names out of a hat. (Sneaky self link: http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/...) There's not much correlation any more between smarts+hard work and success. Something's gotta give. - Bill Hooker
@deepak: One problem is that academic training is done by academics. That's all they know. They aren't prepared to train people for careers in other environments. And as for grad students striking, it's been done, and doesn't really work for reasons mentioned below. Besides, aren't we all in it for the love of discovery? Are you really going to go on strike when your killer experiment you've spent a year setting up is coming to fruition, your bunnies need a bleed, or you need to read galleys? - Todd Harris via twhirl
Todd, I wouldn't disagree with that, but there are more than enough PhDs who move on to industry, where quite frankly I enjoyed the science I did. I think the stike that Neil refers to is people choosing industry over academia - Deepak
That is indeed the action I meant. The whole notion of striking PhDs/postdocs is ridiculous! If your job (any job) is really making you so unhappy, then look elsewhere. I'm acutely aware of "whinging postdoc" syndrome when we explore these issues. I have no time for those "life is so hard in academia" style of blogs. It really isn't. - Neil Saunders
Well, the strike I was referring to was a real strike, not a shift out of academia, but for reasons Todd (and I) have already stated, it wouldn't work, it would have to be a pretty bad situation before things came to that, and despite problems overall most junior scientists do love their work to much to do it. Because of this, it's one less bargaining chip that they have to improve their situation, unlike some other industries. So in reality, I guess a move to industry is a good alternative to a strike ... - Andrew Perry
Especially since it's often a pretty good alternative, and you get to build stuff and often, esp in a small company, get to do some very interesting research - Deepak
I came to this discussion late (ironically because I'm writing yet another grant) but thought I add anyway. I train people in my lab for academics or industry. Most have gone on to industry as it turns out. Since I've worked in both settings its easy for me to make the training fit either option. I try to give the person the chops for either and then let them pick. - Maureen
Since we are talking about alternative career paths it could be worth mentioning that scientific publishing is still growing at a strong pace. I think if I was not happy with research in academia publishing would be the place I would look for an alternative. - Pedro Beltrao
Postdocs: A 1960s invention because they didn't have enough professorships. Lame. Lame. Lame. - Mitchell Tsai
Comments came back today for a .au funding round. A comment directed at a senior researcher with 10 000+ citations was "very good track record but very no recent first author papers". Also last year the Platypus was not exciting, this year the reviewers are so excited they are creaming their pants. Two questions. Who are the idiots who review these grants (I hope it isn’t those who hold 10+ grants)? Are the only things that get funded something that's been big in the media? It appears very short-term hype focused vs long term vision - Mitchell J Stanton-Cook
This is the logical outcome of poorly synchronized boom-bust cycles in funding, training and the availability of scientific careers in any given place. On top of this, since science is now a transnational career possibility, problems are being exacerbated by even more short-sighted policies in other countries. Some interesting comments here: http://bigpicture.typepad.com/... - Heather
Reading this has rather put me off continuing in academia. I like doing research, but I'm not sure if I fancy spending most of my time writing grants if I become successful. Success in research = do less research ? - Michael Barton
Michael, I do think that to an extent it's a choice. I know a few PIs who still write their own code. Even in industry you can choose your track (technical vs. management). Most of my friends are still in the technical track and at least managing large projects if not right in the middle of them. - Deepak
"Success in research = do less research?" Depends in part on the field. A few years ago I started going to occasional math and philosophy meetings (I'm a physicist). I noticed the senior mathematicians and philosophers were a much more interesting and happy bunch than the senior physicists, on average. My eventual theory was that the relatively low level of funding in mathematics and philosophy was actually a boon for these people. Most senior physicists are machines for turning coffee into grants. - Michael Nielsen
@Pedro – yep, I can recommend publishing :-) BTW, we (=Mol Syst Biol) are still looking for a second editor... - Thomas Lemberger
@pedro re: one investigator with 32 grants - I think I read in a follow-up article in Science or Nature a few months ago that they didn't distinguish between types of grants, so that individual actually had a slew of conference grants and not research grants (he is the main organizer for a major series of conferences), so he was an outlier. Still, there are a distinct minority with the majority of research grants, so I don't disagree that the system needs to change.. - Shirley Wu
Nature had that article (Pubmed ID#: 18354436): 32 grants to Andy Robertson, Chief Scientific Officer of the Keystone Symposia; those 32 grants averaged $15,312 a piece. - dsbreak
