Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

I'm really hoping this isn't the post that writes me out of the script, so to speak. That's my biggest fear when broaching this topic. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

I doubt it will, Mark. At least you were honest in your approach about it. - Bradley McSpinn

I don't see how it could. That was a fairly neutral post and very well-written. You got your point across and, there was no way that could be considered offensive. - Candace Holly

Write you out of the script? More like get you signed up for another season and the christmas special. Well reasoned and well written - we have to realise that bigger forces are at work, details can be nasty but focus too narrow and we lose the ability to target the whole picture. - Colin Walker via fftogo

I'm glad - sometimes my "over-the-line-o-meter" isn't too sensitive. I deliberately avoided using many illustrative metaphor or analogy so as to not be misconstrued. Thanks for the positive feedback. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

As to the point of the matter, though, I am curious as to whether or not we'll see much in the way ideas on how to better prevent this stuff short of governmental regulation. I'd prefer to not see us go the route of the EU on this in America... when you start legislating what sort of speech is legal or not, it's a slippery slope. Still it's a very important matter to address somehow. I have some ideas, but no silver bullets. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

@rizzn: There is no thing on Earth that government intervention cannot make worse. But let's do something truly ballsy, let's challenge the central assumption: "This speech is bad." It's not bad. Loren saying whatever he wants, satire or not, is not bad. The cover of the New Yorker is dumb, stupid, even, but it's not bad. Me saying so is not bad. And, frankly, pedophiles hanging out on Facebook, Orkut, or UseNet *is not bad*. Speech, of any kind, nature, or content is not bad. A lot of people who've bought into the proviso that wrongthink hurts other people are in the wrong world. The first and best step to controlling what you do, who you are, and what you think is to control what you say. I don't want you to control what I say, and I don't want to control what you say. Ultimately, I just want people to accept that saying things has consequence in what others say. - Alexander Williams via NoiseRiver

@rizzn: But that's all. We don't need to police ourselves, we definitely don't need government policing us. We just need to say MORE. If you don't like what you're hearing, say something. And everyone else can make up their own minds. I don't care if you're Jesse Jackson, Prussian Blue, Hugo Chavez, or the Dali Lama; there's no such thing as hate speech. There's just speech. And I'd rather you say it, they say it, everyone say it so I can hear and decide with my own perfectly good brain than being told what someone else thinks is good for me. As George Carlin would say, "Fuck them." - Alexander Williams via NoiseRiver

Fair point - I don't encourage speech control either. The thing that causes my reticence on the topic is a form of control that I abhor - a mob mentality that rushes to form a judgement to brand a racist. My question is whether anyone is working to combat the propaganda of Islamic extremists in the manner it's being propagated. Is anyone at YouTube looking at either enforcing the no-hate-speech policy against Arab extremists, or allowing alternative views to be presented? - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

@rizzn: I'm white, roughly middle class, and have no patience for a culture of victimization. Before I've said anything more than that, I'm a racist according to the measure used today. Me and Bill Cosby. Funny thing about YouTube, they don't care much about Islamic-rooted recruitment, images of violence, or propoganda but put something up that counters any of that and gets eyes and you'll be pulled for "hate speech" in short order. So, yes, people are trying and YouTube is enforcing ... but not as expected or desired. Moreover though, the West doesn't need to try and win the propoganda war on YouTube. If living well, safely, in a country where the biggest concern of the poor is OBESITY doesn't convince someone we're onto something, 3min of me showing a Starbuck's surely won't. - Alexander Williams via NoiseRiver

I don't imagine many home grown US islamic terrorists are being recruited via YouTube (though Jonathan Walker Lindh (sp?) was recruited via Usenet and a local terror cell)... the idea that the propaganda from the other side goes unchallenged or even lacks proper competitive messages is what floors me. In America, we have a well oiled machine when it comes to political debate - when will we start to use that in a manner that might "win hearts and minds abroad?" - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

... I don't think simply our videoed consumerism is going to be enough to convince the disenfranchised Muslim youth that we don't deserve suicide bombings. I think there might need to be a more concerted effort than that. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

@rizzn: My suspicion, and here I verge over into "racist hate speech" territory because I'm gutsy like that, is that the essential assumption we'd have to accept to believe something like that would work is missing. We are NOT dealing with either rational people or a rational culture. What's to win? "Hey, unlike your country, we don't live in a stinking shitehole! Democracy and freedom are good!" "Your success just proves you are in league with Shaitan!" "But -- that's stupid. And irrational." "See!" This is why rational debate doesn't win any headway with the PC crowd, incidently; they aren't responding rationally. Modern "polite" society frowns on leveraging the irrational to succeed, even to save itself. - Alexander Williams via NoiseRiver

Well, when the morning readers pile in to check out the article and leave their comments, it'll be the true test as to whether I'm barking up the wrong tree and you're right, or if I've somehow found the magical combination of topics and words to convince everyone that this is something we ought to think and do something about. I'd make a prediction, but the predictions I make about how my posts will be received are almost uniformly incorrect. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

@rizzn: You should start predicting which direction they'll be incorrect. I figure the world needs people like me, who're willing to burn, destroy, smash, obviate, at every level from the least reified thought to the guy next to him for some ends, and those of less completist aims. Early warning of the Bad Idea Bears being inbound is when someone suggests removing such people rather than internalizing them. But that's just my stance. I'm sure it'll blow up into a nightmare thread by the time I wake up. :) - Alexander Williams via NoiseRiver

His videos were racist, and his followup rant was so much bullshit. "Sorry black people, it just turned out to be you I picked on," as if it was out of his hands or something. "Mistakes were made." Whatever. And now you're buying into his fantasy as some kind of misunderstood prophet, NOoooo it's really about free speech! NOooo it's really about what if the Rand Corporation started gaming social media! And you're buying into it, which is sad. - Karim

I saw a Dateline NBC show about pedophiles who solicit underage girls online. They show up to a house and instead of some 15-year-old girl, there's the police and a bunch of cameras. Sometimes the pedophiles say, "NOoooo, I was just here to provide a WARNING to the girl, she shouldn't be meeting strange men on the Internet. I was going to do something good!" Same argument. - Karim

You want to warn people about bad guys, then WARN people about bad guys. Don't BE a bad guy and then claim you were all misunderstood, you were just trying to deliver a "message." - Karim

Compare anyone to frickin' Bin Laden and they're an angel Mark. Did you write this before or after you saw Loren's latest video? - Shey

@yesthatkarim: babyGooGooVoice{I'm so sowwy that black people are so fragile and soft that they can be wounded by some random guy on the Internets. That's tewwible! Absolutely wight, let's stop anyone saying bad, bad things! Even if they just parody, reference, or outright mimic what everyone sees.} Thank you, Karim, for definitively and directly proving my point. Here's your $20. - Alexander Williams via NoiseRiver

@Alexander Free speech is a wonderful thing man. It allows you to show everyone how you really feel and really exposes who you really are. - Shey

Alexander, and your point is? Who said anything about being wounded? Feldman can be an unfunny jerk all day long; it doesn't affect me. I *am* a little disappointed when otherwise intelligent people buy into his "oh my 'message' is just misunderstood" bullshit. And if someone *is* wounded, don't they have as much right to express their feelings as Feldman has to be an asshole? - Karim

I think the general point is being missed here. From what I got out of that post, the writer was saying there are bigger fish to fry. Despite what you (or I) personally think about Loren Feldman's video...it doesn't make a huge difference. In the long run, there are much larger issues at hand than a video someone published that people may have found offensive. - Candace Holly

@yesthatkarim: I thought Feldman was marginally amusing, but I don't object to him being called an unfunny jerk. I object to the rush to "racist," and ensuing crazy rampage of stupidity. And if someone is wounded, I absolutely support their ability and right to express themselves as Feldman has. I also support the right to mock them openly for it. - Alexander Williams via NoiseRiver

@shey: I'd rather deal with someone who openly says what they think even if (maybe especially if) I disagree than someone who takes the craven groupthink and groupspeak path. Better an honest opposition than a mealy-mouthed supporter. - Alexander Williams via NoiseRiver

+1 Shey. "exposes who you really are." Like Arrington, who apparently *couldn't tell* if the videos were racist and suggested that Shel Israel was the secret mastermind behind a Muslim organization. As far as I know, Kara Swisher still thinks Feldman makes "just the kind of innovative original material that is a key part of creating a whole new genre online" -- 'cause, you know, racist bile is so avant-garde. Others crawled out of the woodwork to cheer him on. More free speech = more exposure. - Karim

Alexander, for someone who believes that there's nothing wrong with pedophiles on MySpace and that there's no such thing as hate speech, you seemed to be a little quick to mock someone before you understood their point of view :-) - Karim

This didn't take long. I walk away from the computer for six hours and we're back to the same thing. Karim, Shey, this is a bit bigger than Loren. Like it or not, he made a very valid point at the end of the series of videos that makes you think him a racist. That's the point that I wrote about. There are bigger fish to fry, and it's more important to concentrate on that than whether Loren's a racist, or anyone in this conversation supports hate speech. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

Mark, refresh my memory, please, that was a long rant of Feldman's, and he was going on about the evils of the Rand Corporation being on Twitter, or something, so I'm not sure I *got* his "very valid point." Was it that social media can be used for evil as well as good? Well DUH. Pretty much EVERY TECHNOLOGY since the rock has been used for good and ill, and here's the Great Prophet Feldman trying to make us all understand Terrorists and Pedophiles Can Use Twitter Too? Wow! - Karim

My, that was certainly worth repeatedly slandering the entire black race! - Karim

Mark, whether or not Loren can be branded a racist is not main the issue here, you're right. That can be debated till kingdom come. Let's talk about the behaviour. http://www.1938media.com/affir... . But please, don't tell me to ignore a problem because Big Bad Bin Laden is out there trolling the internet. - Shey

I don't think you have to ignore a problem..especially if it's something you feel is an issue. But, one of the best things about the internet is there are plenty of places to talk about and, address issues. It looks like Mark's post on Mashable is adressing a completely different issue. He just used Loren Feldman's video as an example before going into the larger issue at hand. I'm sure there's plenty of places to talk about the problem you have (and rightly so)...but, maybe here we ought to focus a bit more on what Mark was talking about and, how to address this specific issue. - Candace Holly

Shey, especially considering the manner in which this was handled. Nobody was calling for government regulation here. Nobody was even talking about it: this was handled entirely in the private sector. Verizon, a privately owned company, weighed the risks to its revenue base in keeping 1938 Media on V-Cast, and decided it wasn't worth it due to the public (again, not government backed) outcry about Loren's past work. What can be more mom and apple pie than that? - Mark Trapp

Candace, this is a distraction from the actual issue. It's negating an actual, concrete problem and replacing it with a nebulous "the government is here to take our liberties because Loren Feldman isn't a racist because he thinks the government is out to get us too" argument. - Mark Trapp

@MarkT, you're absolutely right. The first problem is, we aren't even admitting there's a problem! - Shey

+1 Mark Trapp. I never understood the fearmongering behind the article anyway. "It’s been speculated publicly by Hillary Clinton herself that America isn’t ready for a black president, and that he may not survive his term in office. Do you think the tools that aid communication and organization might be used to facilitate that?" I'm no student of history, but I'm pretty sure Lincoln was assassinated without the aid of cellphones and email. - Karim

But it's probably better linkbait to say "Loren Feldman wuz right, the terrorists has social media, oh noes!" - Karim

I can appreciate that this was difficult to publish, Mark, but you did a good job of trying to look long term at some possibly disturbing trends, as did Chris Brogan. Your effort is commendable and appreciated, at least by me. - Mark Dykeman

I am trying to understand everyone's POV. After reading this article, I'm coming away with the following: 1) Feldman said potentially bad things but we shouldn't rag on him for it. 2) Especially because Al Qaeda is out there using YouTube. Is that right? Someone please educate this ignoramous... I didn't quite get the Obama and Clinton drops either. - Yolanda

lol Yolanda. I think you are missing Alexander's point, which I think was, 1) free speech is good, anybody should be able to say anything, anywhere, at any time, unless of course someone calls Feldman a "racist," in which case they should be mocked. Mocked, I say! ;-) - Karim

@yesthatkarim: Actually, yeah. That pretty much sums up my position. Except it's not "unless," it's "AND." Mockery is a side-product of good thinking! - Alexander Williams via NoiseRiver

Geez... I guess I got lost then. I don't know. If Loren has the right to perpetuate stereotypes about black folks, then, he better have his big boy underoos on. - Yolanda

I appreciate that some of you are trying to understand the larger point here, but I'm on the verge of simply ignoring Karim, who seems to want to be antagonistic simply for the sake of it. Loren was demonstrating how social media can be easily abused to manipulate its users towards a certain end or behavior pattern. He was also pointing towards a future where that abuse would be in the hands of folks with much more malicious intent than stirring a discussion on racism. The distracting punditry of .... - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

... this week's New Yorker cover is an echo of what our punditry all resembled last week. Folks with real racist motivations can use the same tools to a much more effective end - either ending the Obama candidacy or ending his life. So far it hasn't been done in America, but overseas terrorists are doing this quite effectively for their own purposes. That's the short version of my article. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

Well Mark... I really didn't get that vibe from Feldman. I just don't feel like he put that much thought into it and the Technigga video. It doesn't seem like a commentary on our society. It seems like Feldman is really just a juvenile and doesn't know what is and isn't appropriate. And if he really was trying to say something... he needs some help expressing himself. - Yolanda

Mark, I'm not antagonistic for the sake of it, whatever that means. I'm antagonistic to the ideas that a) Feldman gave us any lessons that don't fall into the DUH category, b) he needed to repeatedly disrespect black people to get his point across, c) we should laud such things, and d) invoking terrorist bogeymen and fearmongering are things we should encourage. I'm a little more concerned about terrorists getting their hands on plutonium than Plurk. - Karim

I hope I can *disagree* with you on these points without being branded uppity or "antagonistic simply for the sake of it." - Karim

@Yolanda And there's where the stereotyping comes in. @MarkH: I don't care what his "altruistic" purposes are; propagating FALSE NEGATIVE STEREOTYPES (in caps because I really want folks to grasp this) does NOTHING to help ANY race. - Shey

Not to be rude, Karim and Shey, then maybe this isn't the conversation for you to participate in. It's been hashed out over and over again your particular opinions on the topic, and frankly that is exactly type of thing I think we need to get past. There are more important fish to fry, and if being upset about someone propagating a stereotype is the only thing you choose to focus on, you're missing not only Loren's point, but life impacting things more damaging than hurt feelings over misunderstood satire. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

@Yolanda: It isn't commentary about society. It's commentary about tools. My post was *documenting* the use of these tools as predicted by Loren. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

"Not to be rude," but STFU and GTFO? Nice. You know, the irony is, in the post-9/11 world, we need to hang together more than ever before. We need to be ONE nation. ONE America. Feldman did nothing but drive a wedge between people, and you are telling the two black guys in this thread to get lost. Way to celebrate diversity of opinion. Way to bring us together. - Karim

Interesting quotes from your blog, Mark H. "Although no one has explicitly asked the question, I'm pretty perceptive, and I'm sure a lot of the folks who know me and read the site often wonder why I take my articles the direction that I do (that direction being usually politically unpopular positions, and technically unorthodox statements)." - Karim

Your blog also says: "'I'm the whetstone that sharpens others' knives. Sometimes I pick a position that I don't necessarily agree with and defend it because I want the reverse position to come out on top." - Karim

Your blog continued: "I hope this is illuminating for those that happen across this - and to my naysayers shows that I'm a bit more than just a disagreeable jerk. Long ago I learned to love ideological conflict, but still don't want to put out the image that I'm completely inhuman." - Karim

Your blog continued: "On a personal level, I am targeting this post towards those I work with in the blogosphere who wonder why I'm such a muck-raker, but on a more wide-spread level, this is a bit of a peek into how to use controversy as a tool, rather than something to shy away from." Ah, so you and Feldman have that in common! Don't shy away from controversy! Unless of course you're telling people "this isn't the conversation for you." - Karim

And finally: "There's a complex consortium of motivations behind it. I'm conflicted whether or not I want to pull back the curtain on this. On the one hand, I only have about six or seven readers - but as we learned from Loren this week is that things you say can have a way of coming back to bite you much later. Fortunately for me, none of this could be construed as racism, so I should be fairly safe." <airquotes> "fairly" </airquotes> ;-) - Karim

http://rizzn.com/blog/2008/07/... - Karim

couple more choice quotes. i could not resist. you said: "...those same principals [sic] apply to whatever statements I make. If they're blatantly wrong are shakey [sic], their mettle is tested by the commenters." Looks like you originally typed "blatantly wrong" then self-edited to "shakey." Might want to fix that up. - Karim

and a last good quote from you: "As the blogosphere is a meritocracy, despite how much folks hate you during the debate, the rewards always come back to me in terms of increased attention." Ah, true! I would not have visited your blog had you not been such a Feldman sycophant. You both thrive on "increased attention," and will take up any idiotic position to get it, which is sad. - Karim

Mark -- "using controversy as a tool," "loving ideological conflict," "picking positions you don't agree with," choosing "unpopular positions" and "unorthodox statements" -- is this anything like, say, being "antagonistic simply for the sake of it?" Just curious, since you seem to be an expert at it. - Karim

No, it's a bit more like being off-topic. While I'm trying to start a discussion on the bigger issues, you're focused on the minutia still. You've earned a block from me Karim. I don't enjoy being called idiotic. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

First, I didn't call you "idiotic," Mark. I said self-professed "muck-rakers" who crave *attention*, like you and Feldman, will take up any idiotic position to get it. You admitted as much when you said you "pick positions [you] don't necessarily agree with" just for attention. Second, if I hurt your feelings, maybe you should just consider it SATIRE. Ha, ha, ha! Doesn't that make it all better now? Perhaps like Prophet Feldman, I am "demonstrating how social media can be easily abused to manipulate its users towards a certain end or behavior pattern" (YOUR words) -- i.e. "Block." - -Karim

Have you not considered the "larger fish to fry," that I might be trying to TEACH you something, or are you too busy being thin-skinned? "If being upset about someone propagating a stereotype is the only thing you choose to focus on, you're missing not only Loren's point, but life impacting things more damaging than hurt feelings over misunderstood satire." YOUR words, Mark -- maybe you should take them to heart? Or are YOURS the only hurt feelings that really matter? - -Karim

As for your whole, "Fortunately for me, none of this could be construed as racism, so I should be fairly safe" thing, you might want to stop only asking BLACK people to leave your conversations, because, just between you and me, that *could* be construed as racist. - -Karim

Karim - you really are a troll if you'll go so far as to create separate accounts to call me an idiot. I don't have hurt feelings, it's just that you hate me so much that it's become a distraction, and you've completely ruined what could have been a constructive conversation. I'm not censoring black people, I'm asking folks who are going off the topic I wanted to talk about to focus on the subject matter. You've been blocked (again) not because you're black, Karim, but because you're an ass. - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins

"...but I'm on the verge of simply ignoring Karim, who seems to want to be antagonistic simply for the sake of it." -- Hmmmm, sounds remarkably like a certain friend of yours who used to be funny. - jeneane 'the wink' sessum