Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

A group of San Francisco first-graders took an unusual field trip to City Hall on Friday to toss rose petals on their just-married lesbian teacher - putting the public school children at the center of a fierce election battle over the fate of same-sex marriage. I'm drawing the line on this as WRONG! http://digg.com/political_opin... - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ via Bookmarklet

I'm guessing you missed the part about this being a charter school? - Alex Scoble CISSP

The only thing that's wrong is that this is newsworthy. I am happy to see that the young generations are not nearly as homophobic (or racist for that matter) as the old ones. Gives me hope for the future. - Bora Zivkovic

If this had been a public school teacher, then I could see where the furor would be justified , but this was a charter school. - Alex Scoble CISSP

Seems very cute to me. and didn't make any news-blogs or otherwise really- in SF as far as I can see. - anna

Yeah, I really don't see the problem here... - Evan Sims

...there's nothing wrong with that. - heather ♥s fauns on mars.

Alex it is true... I did not give the type of school any consideration... now that I have considered that.... it is still wrong. the type of school doesn't change the fact that these are kids. leave them alone with this crap. This is not the type of things kids should learn. a class going to any marriage is inappropriate... in my opinion the whole make out thing with public displays of affection shouldn't be with kids. but to do it to push an agenda is just plain ignorant & repulsive. http://digg.com/political_opin... - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

i thought it was beautiful, and a very thoughtful thing to do for one's teacher - Trent Olson

Maybe there is hope for the world after all. Now I'm thinking of a Whitney Houston song. - Victor Ganata

I wouldn't want my kid's class going to any marriage at that age. http://digg.com/political_opin... - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

I don't think it was done to "push an agenda". - heather ♥s fauns on mars.

@another noah, kids can't go to marriages? what about ring bearers and flower girls? - anna

not as a class. if you are going to give one on one explanations... it is different. these people are using children as pawns - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

I didn't get the sense that the parents of the kids did this to push an agenda. The thing that is missed here is that (if I'm reading the article right) this was a bunch of parents and kids showing their appreciation of their teacher on their wedding day. Again, not a thing that would be allowed for a public school teacher (for liability reasons they have to be professionally detached from their kids), but I think it's kind of cool. Oh and considering that this happened in San Francisco? Completely not news - Alex Scoble CISSP

Weddings and funerals are part of life. Why shield the kids from it? Why such an unease with the facts of life like birth, love, sex and death? Is it about denying we are animals and have bodies? How Puritan! - Bora Zivkovic

Bora... do you have a kid? there are many things that take more effort then just throwing them into the game. some day they will have sex... yes? does that mean you watch porn with ur kids? - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

I have two kids and I am raising them to deal with the world as it is, not a sterilized, unrealistic fairy-tale version of the world. They are teens now, and emotionally healthy, intellectually curious, and they are critical readers of the media. - Bora Zivkovic

@Bora you should write a book on parenting, I'd read it! - anna

Only people squeamish about their own sexuality equate a wedding with sex - dirty minds? Wedding is a celebration of love. Kids understand love. Only old pervs are reminded of sex when they attend a wedding. - Bora Zivkovic

and Bora there is a huge difference between you teaching sex and a person with 20 or 30 kids teaching it. sex should be taught one on one. not in public. sex education is a cruel joke on kids. @Bora well I guess Obama is ur man... he loves teaching sex ed to five year olds. these kids are going 2b more messed up then Generation X - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

But they're not teaching sex by bringing them to a wedding... it's not like the women had sex during the ceremony. - heather ♥s fauns on mars.

Only a perverse mind would equate a wedding with sex education. And yes, Obama is my man because that bill you are referring to is a bill that would protect small kids from sexual perverts, from people who are so sick and depraved they see sex in everything, even in the most beautiful events in a person's life. - Bora Zivkovic

public displays of affection... the kids will emulate it. there is little explaination for these kids. look at the faces... they don't know what to make of it when they aren't being trained - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Just to be clear on two things: (1) a charter school is a public school; it just has a charter that relaxes certain educational requirements. (2) from the article: "As is the case with all field trips, parents had to give their permission and could choose to opt out of the trip. Two families did. Those children spent the duration of the 90-minute field trip back at school with another first-grade class, the interim director said." - Glen Campbell

I guarantee Noah that no one is teaching sex education to 6 year olds. - Alex Scoble CISSP

you can't opt out of all the kids talking about it. this is hypocrisy on so many levels http://digg.com/political_opin... - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Again, equating this with sex education is completely bogus. - Alex Scoble CISSP

Maybe Noah's imagination was going wild- if they kiss, what else happens... orgy ensues. Sorry I'm getting silly. Except for a school's questionable "school activities" - going to a gay or straight wedding seems a stretch for me as a 'teachable moment in civil rights." But hey- charter schools are like that. - anna

Humans are beautiful. Human bodies are beautiful. Sex is beautiful. Love is beautiful. Marriage is beautiful. Weddings are beautiful. Being a living, breathing, thinking, mortal animal is beautiful. Why deprive the kids from beauty? Everything at the correct time - weddings are fine at any age, sex later as they get more mature and presented as beautiful, not sinful. - Bora Zivkovic

And he also missed the part where the students were waiting outside of City Hall, so they wouldn't have seen the newlyweds kiss anyhow...at least not as part of the ceremony. - Alex Scoble CISSP

The first thing a newborn experiences is Mom's kiss. How is a kiss something to hide from kids? - Bora Zivkovic

Alex... we don't know where the kids are standing. no imagination... just the video facts. don't want my kid there. don't want my kid in that school where the kids are talking about it http://digg.com/political_opin... I DRAW THE LINE... the fact that 2 children opted out also tells you something - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

And even if the kids are talking about it, unless they already HAVE had some sort of talking-to about sex, their minds just aren't going to go there. I have a sister in *third* grade who wouldn't equate "marriage" with "oh my god, SEX!" - heather ♥s fauns on mars.

Parents were able to opt out, as the article reads. A parent came up with the idea. None of the children were forced. The idea that gay marriage, and gay couples as something "we don't want our kids to learn" is completely homophobic. I mean I don't get a choice about my kids being taught that marriage between a man and a woman is "normal". If I'm not careful, they'll get exposed to heterosexuality. I don't know what I'd do if my son decides to start experimenting with girls!! - Orphan Spinster Librarian

It's sad that you draw the line there. It stunts your kids emotional development. I hope they recover later with a help of peers and other responsible adults who are not squeamish about naturalness of human life. - Bora Zivkovic

My "liking" of this applies to the article, not the attached pro-Prop8 rhetoric. Teaching children that people who love each other enough to commit for life is a reality is NEVER a bad thing. As Bora said, love is never a bad thing. - Dana Franks via twhirl

We do KNOW where the kids are standing since it says so in the article. And if you had your kid in this teacher's class (I can just imagine the consternation this would cause you) you could have opted out from them attending. - Alex Scoble CISSP

so parents of children opted out... this makes your point moot. obviously there was contention in a "CHARTER SCHOOL" ... http://digg.com/political_opin... I DRAW THE LINE - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Two children opted out, out of how many? They weren't a majority here... - heather ♥s fauns on mars.

enough to let you know that this is not what the parents signed their kids up for http://digg.com/political_opin... I DRAW THE LINE - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Or maybe just to let you know they're homophobic. - heather ♥s fauns on mars.

you obviously don't remember class field trips Alex. so as long as they stand outside of Hooters all is good? "Marriage is more complicated then UR right2use a public park. Marriage is designed4creating relationships 4human reproduction(which*IS*important).When U demand gay marriage UR asking 4the same benefits as people who need government assistance because they have no choice over their functions(in the same respect U can't help being gay) Children R expensive. Please take sympathy on straight people. I don't hate U! Obama doesn't support GAY MARRIAGE!" http://digg.com/political_opin... I DRAW THE LINE - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Marriage is not about procreation, except in the pamphlets from fundie churches: http://scienceblogs.com/clock/... and http://scienceblogs.com/clock/... and http://scienceblogs.com/clock/... - Bora Zivkovic

you assume form doesn't follow function. you would fail any design school. there is discrepancy in good patterns, but in general cultural norms develop out of need. you might not want to believe it because of denial... but marriage is a functional element of society. Obama doesn't support GAY MARRIAGE! http://digg.com/political_opin... I DRAW THE LINE - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

How many times are you going to say "I draw the line"? We get it. - heather ♥s fauns on mars.

I find on long threads it is good to repeat the main point, with each comment. it draws the line http://digg.com/political_opin... and I will not draw a line on how many times I repeat that. It is a device that politicians use very effectively. that way when you get a sample of the main point. since 'yall ain't commenting anymore... guess the line was drawn - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Oh, I see, the Rove style of politics: a lie repeated enough times becomes the truth. If you read the linked post, it is not about design - it is about organic evolution of the society, including its institutions, including marriage, to fit the people's need. Design imposed by a 'designer' is always flawed. Design that evolves to fit a need usually is much more optimal. If you are an engineer - FAIL: - Bora Zivkovic

http://scienceblogs.com/clock/... "The conservative architect believed that there is no design without a Designer and that his years in design school make him the perfect person to CONTROL how the other people will utilize the park. He plays God. He scorns the proles. The liberal architect is wiser: she understands that the wisdom of the community is greater than anything she may have learned in school." - Bora Zivkovic

@Bora ++ I think that it's a homophobic thing Another Noah is saying, that witnessing two women kiss is "sex education." It's an expression of feeling. And hooters != marriage. You keep conflating pornography and exploitation of women in businesses with commitment ceremonies and rituals of our society, like funerals. That, to me, is more disturbing than your fears of seeing homosexuals express their feelings. - anna

Anna I don't want children experiencing sexuality at a young age. Hetero or Homo. I don't want it. gay marriage evolves into nothing but a win for a Conservative. Bora, It is not engineering, it is masturbation when there is no effect but one's loss of DNA to the next generation or at best a weak link to succession. this isn't rhetoric... this is the reality of our society. whenever GAY MARRIAGE is brought up a Conservative wins the election. so maybe it is good design after all. natural selection - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

...but I don't celebrate weakness of others. I don't encourage it. I like pornography, but I don't celebrate it as a productive element of my life. it is means to survival. certainly homosexuality is part of life. it is part of the pattern... it isn't the winning solution. it is part of our culture. it is the pattern... but it is not where we should encourage our goals. marriage is in fact a goal. it is an initiation of the cycle of life - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Why are homophobes so obsessed with sex and also think there is something wrong with sex? Sex is natural, and beautiful and a part of life. I hope Another NOAH gets to experience it that way at some point in the future - trust me, it is really good! - Bora Zivkovic

nothing wrong with gay sex Bora... you said that. not me. it doesn't hurt me unless I am not monogamous and then I might be concerned with how easily illness spreads through anal sex. but it is not something that I would pass a law against because the responsibility is partly on me for having multiple sex partners - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

What? I said what? Of course there is nothing wrong with gay sex. Or gay marriage. Or kids attending a wedding. It is you who has problems with all of that, seeing sex everywhere and seeing sex as something dirty and to be ashamed of. - Bora Zivkovic

This discussion is devolving because for some reason sex got conflated with the ceremonial kiss at weddings. Can we all agree on how this discussion has derailed? - anna

you assumed I'm homophobic. that isn't true. I ask GAYs to respect difference. In the same way you expect me to respect your difference. taking away the protections our society has for people who get each other pregnant is not respect - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Homophobia is the ONLY reason for being against gay marriage. Prove me wrong. Yes, AnotherNOAH has derailed this thread from the very beginning, by the way he started it in the first place. - Bora Zivkovic

for you that kiss has no meaning. you don't deserve to be married if you think a kiss is marriage - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Why should gays respect outdated societal norms that make them pariahs and people who try to enforce those norms? The onus is on the straights to respect gays, not the other way round. - Bora Zivkovic

That kiss has a lot of meaning. Except that this meaning is not sexual, but you are incapable of seeing it as you see sex everywhere and feel heebie-jeebies when you think about it. - Bora Zivkovic

obviously if you don't care about the needs of kids then I can't convince you of anything - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

This is like debating a Creationist! Or a Republican. Can't nail them in one place to stay on one topic for a second. You talk about A, they ask "how about B" - a game a whack-a-mole. They win arguments by attrition, not reason, facts or logic. - Bora Zivkovic

I assure you that I'm not a Creationist. I'm arguing using your semiotics. you are just so brain washed by your own rhetoric that you are in shock that it has no logic - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

I'm actually laughing now. - anna

The needs of kids are to be raised in the world as it is, appreciating life and naturalness of it, warts and all, beauty and all. Needs of kids are not met if they are shielded or lied to or indoctrinated into bigotry. Lying to kids is bad for parents as well - when the Real World hits them on the head, kids come back and ask you "why did you lie to me?" - Bora Zivkovic

even your language is coded from San Francisco. EXAMPLE: two definitions of attrition (1) sorrow for one's sins that arises from a motive other than that of the love of God (2) the act of weakening or exhausting by constant harassment, abuse, or attack ...you assume it is definition two, but in fact it is your code that is holding you back from seeing the truth. children need to see the truth... sure. but that truth has limitations. your coded language assumes pure transparency. you are hypocrites - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Oh, just a reminder that projection is a known psychological problem of conservatives. If you listen carefully, whatever they impugn on people they dislike, it is exactly the trait they do not like in themselves. - Bora Zivkovic

What God? My kids have never been lied about its (or Santa Clause's) existence, thus they can grow up to be emotionally healthy. Your language was coded by James Dobson, apparently. Thus, definition (1) does not exist, only (2) does. - Bora Zivkovic

personal attacks when the paradox is exposed... Tu Queque... - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Christianits have the inability to distinguish between person and idea. Love the sinner, hate the sin? Attack on the idea is not a personal attack unless you are so identifying with the idea that your own personhood is hidden even from yourself. - Bora Zivkovic

Bora... I am neither a Christian or Cartesian. projection indeed. your label of conservative is only as good as it's relativity. my world was NYC and LA. conservative would be socialism. btw Marx believed in gender - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Now you're incoherent. There is no paradox and the only paradox you exposed is your stopping at the Piegatian stage of emotional development somewhere at the age of 7 or so, before being capable of distinguishing one's person from one's belonging to a bigger group - initially the family, later the religion, ideology, party, sports team or nation. Thus, criticism of the group's ideas are perceived as personal attacks. - Bora Zivkovic

And, due to projection, attacks on others are done in the form of attacks on groups, with a silly notion that the other will be offended. How could I possibly be offended by your gibbersih about Marx or socialism or NYC and LA? Those were intended to make me defensive, but they only make me laugh. In order to make me huffy, you need to find something factually true about myself that I personally do not like about myself and pounce on that. Otherwise, attacks on groups you think I belong to have no power - Bora Zivkovic

my dog got attacked. had to leave the argument to skunk bath. but stinking is not just a canine quality: it reeks around here of paradox. you speak projection when you call basic Marxist knowledge gibberish. you've been drinking the KOOLAID for so long that you don't even know the artificial flavor of it. I'm not attacking behavior... I'm defending lives. you have a right to do whatever you want, but when you effect others with tax dollars, they have a right to ask for different categorization. - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

now address my points and stop the nonsense of names. it just discredits you with an impartial observer. the reason you attack me by labeling me a Christian Conservative is that you think you understand where I am coming from. you obviously don't. Christians for sure have studied these issues more then any other cannon, so their knowledge in sexuality is to be seriously respected. the fact that you so easily blow it off shows how insecure u r. your arguments against Christianity could easily be applied on any other logic. I leave my personal bias vague and you don't have a leg to stand on. - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

the only thing you know is that I oppose gay marriage. this could be for myriad of reasons. it is you who are projecting. because I never gave any moral reasons against this besides the survival of the species. the details of this are pointless to go into. children are important. their natural environment is essential. - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

There is no other reason to oppose gay marriage but homophobic bigotry. And, Christian knowledge is not something to be respected - on any topic whatsoever. If it is possible to get something wrong, Christians get it wrong. Two millennia of idiocy collected a lot of crap which they are incapable of ridding themselves of. And, of all the topics in the world, they got sexuality the worst - they are the most sexually hung-up and perverse group in history (and various other religions as well). - Bora Zivkovic

Finally, as you use typical rhetoric of the Right (particularly Christian right) and the typical illogical debating practices of the Right, I think I successfully placed you in the Right. If you don't like it, leave it. - Bora Zivkovic

freedom only comes with restraint. you are so full of labels... it is obvious you can't hold back anything. Life did not create any social contracts, People in life do to protect themselves from destruction. you are so willing to kill the label of gay and straight that you have objectified everything else. this is not skin color this is behavior we are talking about. I'm not condemning your behavior, I'm asking you to respect other people's behavior. "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you." Friedrich Nietzsche "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" Albert Einstein - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Bullshit. Sexual orientation is inborn and heritable, just like skin color. Only pervs think of it as behavior (as it implies choice), because the thought of gay sex makes them uncomfortable. Grow up. - Bora Zivkovic

maybe 40 years from now homophobia will be as taboo as racism is now. Oh wait. Seriously, only homophobes are against gay marriage. Bans are just like the anti-miscegenation laws of old. - Victor Ganata

I happen to be a Republican http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R... Republicanism always stands in opposition to any form of dictatorship or tyranny in the political realm. More broadly, it refers to a political system that protects liberty, especially by incorporating a rule of law that cannot be arbitrarily ignored by the government. As John Adams put it, “They define a republic to be a government of laws, and not of men.” Much of the literature deals with the issue of what sort of values and behavior by the citizens is necessary if the republic is to survive and flourish; the emphasis has been on widespread citizen participation, civic virtue, and opposition to corruption." - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

read this quote you said back up there "The liberal architect is wiser: she understands that the wisdom of the community is greater than anything she may have learned in school." ...the community of this country has REJECTED GAY MARRIAGE. Gerrymandering where the community begins and ends is more of the same type of argument. Gerrymandering what is religion and what is not is more of you deciding on poor design. It is not laissez faire at all. You assume it is understood where the boundaries begin and end and yet you recognize no boundary. This is tyranny. To recognize no boundary of the community unless it furthers your agenda is wrong on so many levels. - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

again I am not a Cartesian nor am I a Christian. This means I am not here to draw the line between where your free will begin and end in any issue. What I am concerned about is the REAL POLITICAL ramifications of encouraging and offering tax benefits to less beneficial environments for children. I realize that there are difficult situations that do come into reality... the fact that we have a man that lives with one leg does not mean we pass legislation encouraging people to chop the other leg off. as long as there is precedent and functional reasoning that allows us to discriminate functionally and legally as far as 'his' and 'her' public bathrooms, I believe to use personal accusations like "Homophobic" in each attack instead of detailing the objections to my points proves how brainwashed you are in your rhetoric. To insist for the sake of argument that gay sex is inherited is a faulty argument in that in precludes an evidence that is not apparent. it is heresay - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

you are so quick to preclude that being gay is a nature, and yet if I were to preclude that a woman's qualities are inherited you would again slander me. your arguments are so coded and pre established as being normalized that it is frightening that you consider other people's norm to be an issue. It is you who is demanding religion impede into the state... not the Christians. again I am not a Cartesian nor am I a Christian, http://digg.com/political_opin... there is moral precedent in our government. I am here to draw a moral line ,but a moral line is not neccessarily a religious one. We have agreed universal and secular moral codes that circumvent religious details. - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

OK Noah, you are against gay marriage as it doesn't produce kids. Did you know 5,000 children are being raised by gay parents, so by making it illegal you are putting kids in the foster system? Also- gay relationships have historical underpinnings, since Plato people have been having "Non-productive" relationships because they want to. Have you ever felt something with no productive, or practical feeling (like a gameboy or wii...) emotions aren't run on reason. - anna

More importantly, the govt. should never tell somebody who to love. - anna

Opponents of gay marriage have failed to demonstrate exactly how there is *any* harm. The benefits, on the other hand, are myriad. Face it, it's a dead-end position and despite the prolific spew of your pseudoscientific claims, you reveal yourself to be nothing but a bigot. - Victor Ganata

the point at which the mind & body dichotomy infringe on the basic constitutional rights of other citizens to live as productive a life as possible; that is where the line is drawn. No one is saying you can't live with who you love. the details of where and why consciousness, will, & desire begins & end is a religious issue. I am not here to argue a religious argument because it infringes on church and state. It is common precedent that the state can impede on a moral imperative in caring for it's citizens using religious institutions used by the people. but a moral imperative is not a religion governed by beginning & the end of consciousness or will. here is my blog post on the issue http://simonstudiotheatre.blog... - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

I am not putting any children at risk btw... because people who adopt could enjoy these benefits by going through a different system that is reflective of the choice that gay people enjoy about procreation that straight people don't have without murder. ...and yes there are many cases of pregnancy being detected late and being forced into partial birth abortion situations. (that is assuming you are for abortion).... yawn. - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

look like I won the argument by due process anyway (CALIFORNIA HAS REJECTED THIS MARRIAGE)... but I have another axe to grind. http://simonstudiotheatre.blog... MY DOG IS NOT HOMOPHOBIC http://www.seesmic.com/video/D... The Gay Marriage Ban is California does not mean California is Homophobic! - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ