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Editorchat
Please visit http://www.editorchat.net for transcripts and discussion. Here, we'll post relevant news stories that may inform future chats.
We're on hiatus for December to make improvements here and at the blog. Read all about it: http://timbeyers.com/2009... #editorchat
Fascinating piece by @theatavist: http://www.wired.com/vanish... Good storytelling still sells #editorchat
Well, it's that time. Please reintroduce yourselves and give us a link as you go. #editorchat
Thanks for coming all. Lydia Dishman, your co-host and fellow in freelancedom :)
- Lydia Dishman
Suzi Steffen, performing and visual arts editor at the Eugene Weekly and adjunct instructor at the University of Oregon's J-school. @suzisteffen on Twitter. LinkedIn, Skype, etc. http://blogs.eugeneweekly.com/suzi and my students are doing local blogging at http://reporting1blog.wordpress.com. Thanks, Lydia and Tim! You rock!
- Suzi Steffen
Thanks for holding this, Lydia and Tim. We appreciate you both and value this discussion. http://www.meryl.net/ @merylkevans
- Meryl K. Evans
Charles Bohannan of http://wordful.com, out of Waimea, Hawaii on the Big Island. Mahalo and Aloha to Tim and Lydia and everyone else here!
- Charles
Once more, you were terrific. Tim Beyers, Motley Fool tech contributor and freelancer covering tech, business, finance, and culture. http://timbeyers.com
- Tim Beyers
Thanks for another great chat, Lydia & Tim! Over & out. :) ~ Becky, Iowa, Deep Muck Big Rake, @BeckyDMBR
- Becky
Tom Feyer, letters editor of The New York Times. Please follow me on Twitter -- @tomfeyer -- where I highlight the day's letters and other items of interest. Also: www.nytimes.com/opinion
- Thomas Feyer
We've been brainstorming ways to make #editorchat better but we'd like to hear from you. What do we not do either here, on Twitter, or at the blog that we should be doing?
The blog needs updating, preferably at a few days before our discussion. Please.
- Charles
I'm referring to editorchat.net, that is.
- Charles
I think you're doing a wonderful job.
- Becky
Should we do more with it, Charles? Or are you just referring to posting the questions?
- Tim Beyers
Oh come on, Becky. We could be doing *something*, right?
- Tim Beyers
I second Becky's motion. You guys are great.
- Thomas Feyer
Recruit more people, but I think that's something we participants need to do.
- Suzi Steffen
Spread the word, Suzi!
- Tim Beyers
I appreciated Lydia's DM to me on Twitter this afternoon!
- Suzi Steffen
Promotion -- bring in more people. That's the only disadvantage about this outside of twitter --- people don't see it.
- Meryl K. Evans
I think when we finish up, we should say we'll keep talking about it on the blog?
- Suzi Steffen
I try to DM people the day of, but frankly, am not always able to capture everyone
- Lydia Dishman
I do have one question. Is Wednesday night -- a school night -- the best time for #editorchat? As you know, I'm often off dealing with the kids and their homework.
- Thomas Feyer
Is there a place to add links, etc? (Is that here?)
- Suzi Steffen
Hey, maybe a Facebook page? Then we could promote there, too?
- Meryl K. Evans
Suzi, we've done that with the blog and no one really comes around after the chat.
- Lydia Dishman
Now you're rolling. Keep going for four min. and then we'll move on to reintros.
- Tim Beyers
Tom, we have talked about timing but really, no time is a good time if you think about it. If it's not family, it's work.. Or the weekend.
- Lydia Dishman
How about a button? Or a link to quickly invite people to participate? Gah. Have I been using Facebook too much? ;)
- Becky
Lydia and I see this as a community, and correspondingly as a community effort. We want to make it the most attractive and engaging experience it can be.
- Tim Beyers
Let me back up, Tim. I LOVE Editorchat, and think we have a great community here. So thanks to you and Lydia for everything. The blog: post questions earlier would be helpful. I think a Facebook page is a wonderful idea (credit to Meryl for the suggestion).
- Charles
Understood, Lydia. Beside, eventually my kids will grow up and leave me! :-(
- Thomas Feyer
Thanks for those comments. We'll collect 'em all and talk through what makes sense. We're open any further promotional ideas you have.
- Tim Beyers
Hmmm.
- Suzi Steffen
Reintros coming at the top.
- Tim Beyers
Mine too, Tom - meantime, you should see the eye-rolls here on Wed. nights. But I tell them doing w/o me for 90 minutes builds character ;-)
- Lydia Dishman
Yes, I echo what Charles said. This is one of the better chats out there -- I think being in Friendfeed (and I love it) makes it harder for it to get noticed.
- Meryl K. Evans
I would join a Facebook page.
- Becky
Me, too, Becky.
- Thomas Feyer
I assume no chat next week -- turkey day.
- Meryl K. Evans
Good call, Meryl. Enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday everyone. We're certainly thankful for this group.
- Tim Beyers
Yes, Meryl - hiatus next week
- Lydia Dishman
Thanks for the DM reminders, Lydia.
- Thomas Feyer
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
- Becky
My pleasure Tom. And let me second Tim - I am grateful for all 'yous' as they say back in da Bronx.
- Lydia Dishman
I'm thankful for Tim, Lydia, Becky, Meryl, Charles, Suzi, Jen and everyone else for these 90 minutes -- give or take an hour!
- Thomas Feyer
We're thankful to Tim and Lydia for this. And I am thankful for you, you, yes you, and you for making me exercise my brain with seriously good discussion.
- Meryl K. Evans
Right, Meryl. It's a pleasure to be with such smart, engaging people :-)
- Thomas Feyer
So why are the #journalism and #publishing industries so obsessed with content? Is this just the buzzword du jour, or does it really mean something? #editorchat
With as often as I see "content" bandied about, I think a lot of times, it's just used as the buzzword of the moment. Heck, most of the time I think I know what is being discussed and it can confuse me anyway. *s*
- Jen Nipps
The obsession is driven by the internet marketing craze. Too many marketers and so-called marketers selling a scarcity of products, including "great content." This should settle down in time.
- Charles
Yeah, what Jen and Charles said. :)
- Meryl K. Evans
Charles, I hope you're right. And I also hope it doesn't take too long. lol
- Jen Nipps
Often, new content is a driver to look at a web site, whether via RSS, or subscription, or email digest, etc. Eyeballs = clicks which translate to $
- Lydia Dishman
I'm sick of it. It's made me feel worthless at times.
- Charles
Will it really, Charles? I mean, I want to believe you're right, but hasn't publishing reached the point where pay-for-performance -- as in: risk-shifting to writers and "paying for great content" -- is one of the few remaining strategies for operating profitably?
- Tim Beyers
"Eyeballs = clicks which translate to $" This is what I heard from AC, Lydia. Clicks are *the* currency in AC's world.
- Tim Beyers
I hope there's a pendulum shift. When people stop reading / buying a publication because it's mostly crap? Then maybe it's time to invest in more depth. ???
- Becky
Well, Tim, I imagine some innovative publishing business models will emerge and new companies/brands will rise to the top.
- Charles
I wonder Becky. Look at TV. Give the people what they want has turned networks and cable to reality crap.
- Lydia Dishman
Hey, some is good reality... Top Chef for one. Amazing Race takes us around the world.
- Meryl K. Evans
Actually, Lydia, for the first time in *I swear* a decade, there's some quality on TV again. When I discovered that, I figured they were finally paying writers again.
- Becky
You are right Meryl -some is good. I was thinking of Real Housewives, Wife Swap, etc.
- Lydia Dishman
Becky, absolutely right. I am noticing some good stuff on TV this season -- at long last.
- Meryl K. Evans
What would that innovator look like? Gets back to the intrinsic value question. Perhaps Rachel has it best: connections are currency. Seems we heard something like that from @JohnAByrne some time ago, when we were still on Twitter.
- Tim Beyers
And that may be the pendulum finally swinging back. We've had enough Springer and bored housewives. Bring on the real writing and great stories!
- Lydia Dishman
I'm enjoying television this year for the first time in a long time. Have you seen The Good Wife, Mad Men, Damages? Heck, I'm even taken in by Glee. Whee! Somebody had to write that. ;)
- Becky
"Bring on the real writing and great stories!" Amen.
- Tim Beyers
I second that, Tim!
- Charles
True. Storytelling has made a comeback in some circles. Bored to Death? That's just a big juicy slice of awesome.
- Tim Beyers
Even network TV has some good stuff. Look at Glee and Modern Family.
- Lydia Dishman
TV is making a comeback, but what about great stories/writing on the web and elsewhere?
- Charles
Have you guys looked at online magazines, etc.? I am thinking of this Texas arts mag called Glasstire (http://glasstire.org) that just won an award at the National Arts Journalism Summit. I think there's room for storytelling, but I also think the funding is an issue. (Grants are awesome! Except then you have to report to the granting agencies, and you don't want to rely on them entirely ... )
- Suzi Steffen
Elsewhere? Yipes. That's harder. I read tons of magazines, though. Anyone read The Sun?
- Becky
Back to the original question before we move on. Why the obsession with "content" if storytelling is making a comeback?
- Tim Beyers
Wish @jkwill10 was here, he's gotten a Knight grant for his new endeavor
- Lydia Dishman
Second that. Where are you @jkwill10?
- Tim Beyers
Did Suzi just say "Texas"?? Was not familiar with Glasstire.
- Meryl K. Evans
I've got to duck out. I'm behind on my Nano project and need to get some done on that since the first two books in that series are currently under consideration with a publisher.
- Jen Nipps
Tim - because in the midst of flux and before a new model is established clicks actually are currency. New content is a driver of revenue.
- Lydia Dishman
"Content" is something sites can slap up quickly and pay little or nothing for, promising writers a percentage of ad revenue (ha, ha) or a few bucks a post. Traffic is what matters most there.
- Becky
I think the obsession is at the management level more than anything, a way to try and productize the publishing business into something less esoteric. Disagree?
- Tim Beyers
I know, Meryl, but I did!
- Suzi Steffen
See ya, Jen!
- Becky
Content includes storytelling. It's an umbrella term for anything that gets published and has the potential to be commodofied (if that's even a word)
- Charles
I just don't get how those content mills make money. If I arrive on a site that produces cwap -- I leave. I am not sticking around.
- Meryl K. Evans
Oh, don't get me started, Meryl.
- Becky
Mostly I agree, Becky. But this isn't always true. Is a great recipe content? I suppose so, but even a recipe can have a story.
- Tim Beyers
@Tim I thnk it's a belief that somehow driving clicks will definitely drive advertising, but I'm not sure that actually works ... still, I like sites like Gawker, Jezebel, etc. They have both "content" and storytelling. Oh, and ads. But don't they pay by click rate?
- Suzi Steffen
Suzi -- you're fault! I am now getting another email newsletter ;) Just subscribed to Glassware's DFW edition. Looks fabulous.
- Meryl K. Evans
I don;t understand why content is getting a totally bad rap here. Sure, there's terrible content, but there's also good content. I consider it a neutral term.
- Charles
Yeah... why y'all knocking this content maven, eh? :)
- Meryl K. Evans
Yes, but does one tell a story with a great recipe? Some do. Some don't.
- Becky
Also true. So the term content is being misused. Should we be more indignant about this? I want to be in the content business, but not in the content mill business.
- Tim Beyers
True, Charles. Content is a neutral word. However, when a site is getting "content" from someone (or stealing it) to make money off of it, it's not necessarily quality.
- Becky
Storytelling with recipes, right here: http://www.101cookbooks.com/
- Charles
Ah, see, there you go, Tim. Adding context (and a word) that makes it clearer. ;)
- Becky
I love that site, Charles. Thanks for sharing it.
- Meryl K. Evans
I'm here all week, Becky. Well, okay, only for a few more minutes. (Grins.)
- Tim Beyers
Yeah, Meryl, great storytelling and sharing, and wonderful recipes.
- Charles
Oh... you mean I have to make 'em myself? They don't just appear on my table? Phooey.
- Meryl K. Evans
I'm back -- for now at least. I propose cutting down on the jargon like "content" and "product" and asking in simple English: Is the story interesting? Compelling? Do you want to read on? Does it make you see things in a new way? And so on.
- Thomas Feyer
That's a good way to think of it, Tom. Frankly, I wasn't seeing the difference between content and story before this discussion. Felt like a wrong-headed marketing term.
- Tim Beyers
Excellent point, Thomas.
- Becky
Any last comments on this? Lydia and I have a favor to ask before we close.
- Tim Beyers
Yeah, Tim, "content" is way overused. And great insight, Thomas.
- Charles
Ask away, Tim.
- Thomas Feyer
Alright, last question coming. Look up.
- Tim Beyers
New question above -- dig in.
- Tim Beyers
Looking up ...
- Suzi Steffen
We've been hearing a lot about "content," as if somehow productizing stories is the solution to the #publishing world's problems. Is there a material difference between content and story? If so, what is it?
Uh-oh. Here come the crickets. Maybe our "content maven" will chime in here? (Grins.)
- Tim Beyers
I think there is. The person writing it cares about a story where a lot of times they crank out as much "content" as they can. There are, of course, exceptions to that.
- Jen Nipps
I think Meryl is a very good case-in-point about there being exceptions to that.
- Jen Nipps
Anyone (almost) can gather content. And lots of people do -- for free. Not everyone can tell a good story.
- Becky
Content is churned or canned - stories are original, whether reporting or analysis.
- Lydia Dishman
Where are you, FriendFeed retweet button? CURSE YOU! (Good point, Becky.)
- Tim Beyers
There is never one solution to the world's problems and that includes publishing. Lots of great content don't undergo story-izing.
- Meryl K. Evans
Content is a commodity, stories aren't. But stories can be part of content.
- Charles
So are service pieces nothing but content? How-to do X?
- Tim Beyers
Not necessarily.
- Jen Nipps
Not at all, Tim. I work with a professional services business and email newsletter. We've told stories. But we've also told non-stories. Both successful.
- Meryl K. Evans
Getting specific on this, I'm thinking of content as something that can be posted and measured. Something defined by actions -- which makes it all the more attractive to advertisers. Fair?
- Tim Beyers
Tim - very fair. Content is a commodity and the pay scale offered to those creating it is very much in line with its devaluation.
- Lydia Dishman
Yeah. I think that's probably pretty accurate. (Blasted phone keeps ringing.)
- Jen Nipps
There was a fascinating point in my conversation with Luke at AC in which I asked whether there was an intrinsic value to stories. He didn't really have an answer, asserting instead that -- from here on -- clicks are what drive value. I find this to be both frightening and understandable.
- Tim Beyers
That kind of mindset is what keeps me away from places like AC, CC, and (sometimes) DS, unless I need a quick paycheck and there's something I can write to that won't take long.
- Jen Nipps
It is, Tim. As if we must promote our content like crazy... but that turns off people. Some great content never gets seen simply because it hasn't spread as it deserves to be.
- Meryl K. Evans
I wonder if the idea of nonprofit funding or some longer-term sponsorship would work for stories over content clicks.
- Suzi Steffen
BUt, you're right. It is frightening. People get to used to thinking that it's nothing to do an article, even a how-to. In the class I just finished teaching, I tried to emphasize that it's not easy and it's not a get-rich-quick scheme.
- Jen Nipps
I think "deserves" is the key word there, Meryl. By using that word, you assert that there *is* an intrinsic value to some content, perhaps content that is a great narrative.
- Tim Beyers
(I think I made that point effectively because 2 of the 4 people enrolled in the class never came back.)
- Jen Nipps
LOL Jen.
- Suzi Steffen
Nice inferring there, Tim. Ha -- Jen.
- Meryl K. Evans
Case in point. I had a post that several people found months after it went live... then it spread and got a lot of notice. But if several had never seen it, it'd be sitting there making me think it was not good enough... when it actually was... and needed some word of mouth love.
- Meryl K. Evans
My problem is that, like Jen, many writers are pushed to produce content just for that quick paycheck. I think it is not good for writers and just grows an audience for the french fries of feature writing/reporting.
- Lydia Dishman
How about a show of hands regarding the original question. Who says stories *dont* posses an intrinsic value? (As in how we've always operated in publishing -- writers are paid to produce some story that we assign a price, assuming that as fair value for the editorial team's time and commensurate work required.)
- Tim Beyers
I've heard a lot recently about retweeting and Facebook links becoming more of the new valuation and some turning away from SEO. (As an alt-weekly arts editor, I can say that none of us every thinks about that at all. Maybe I do a little in my online headlines now, but that's it.)
- Suzi Steffen
I'm hesitant to say that stories don't have intrinsic value, though.
- Jen Nipps
Oops, ever.
- Suzi Steffen
Lydia, thankfully I don't have to do it very often. I feel bad, like I'm contributing to the idea that low pay is acceptable for writing of any kind/quality.
- Jen Nipps
stories do have value - but if we, the writers, don't continue to stand up for their intrinsic value (and our own worth as professionals) it will all go away.
- Lydia Dishman
I wrote for one of those write lots of content, sacrifice quality sites. But didn't realize it right away because it was not known like the others. Once I realized it, I slow down my contribution and haven't contributed in a while.
- Meryl K. Evans
"French fries of feature writing/reporting." I love that, Lydia! :)
- Becky
So presuming stories carry an intrinsic value, how do we measure it?
- Tim Beyers
How did we ever measure it, Tim?
- Becky
I don't know. But not everything that has valuable is measurable.
- Jen Nipps
I missed that. Thanks, Jen. Love the "French fries" analogy. Agree with Jen -- we can't put a value or measure everything that's valuable.
- Meryl K. Evans
I don't know that you can measure value in terms of price, but more in the amount of people the story touches, as opposed to how many read it.
- Rachel Hergett
Becky -- I think in the past we measured it by what advertisers were willing to pay after subtracting general corporate expenses and so on.
- Tim Beyers
Jen, and all, I don't mean to knock anyone for writing for a content producer like AC, I know we all need to make a buck, but to me it is like committing to buying local food. Great in theory, but in practice ie: real life, it is sometimes more challenging to make it work.
- Lydia Dishman
I didn't take it as knocking me/anyone. :) I just added my extra 2-cents' worth. lol
- Jen Nipps
measurement is difficult. I agree with Rachel, it is more valuable to touch readers than to get clicks. But how will you ever really know who's affected? Comments are not a good gauge.
- Lydia Dishman
What I'm hearing -- or do I have this wrong? -- is that there may be a disconnect between market and intrinsic value, especially if we go by Rachel' definition: "the amount of people the story touches, as opposed to how many read it."
- Tim Beyers
Unfortunately, I think stories are being considered as literary. It seems even a lot of monthly magazines go the content direction more often than not. So since a lot of people don't value literary works...
- Jen Nipps
"Story" just isn't rainbows & unicorns and touchy-feely stuff. It's context. And it's missing A LOT. For example, WSJ just ran an article about the new guidelines for mammograms. While it provided "content" (info about said guidelines & some quotes), it failed to ask any more questions or provide context or depth.
- Becky
I think that's an excellent point/illustration, Becky.
- Jen Nipps
Becky, agreed. However, I think many editors just throw ideas around thick and fast and expect reporter to provide context with just a few links.
- Lydia Dishman
Exactly, Lydia. And the layers that used to be there (reporters, copy editors, desk editors, MEs, etc., etc.) are gone.
- Becky
Very true, Becky. What good is content without context?
- Charles
I've been noticing places like WSJ having some lesser quality articles. Disappointing.
- Meryl K. Evans
Charles, it's like Lydia said ... it's French fries. ;)
- Becky
Great stuff. Keep going while I post a new question above.
- Tim Beyers
Look up! New question above! (Grins.)
- Tim Beyers
"Would you like fries with that?" --ugh
- Charles
If the WSJ reporter had several layers of editors, perhaps more information would have been required. WHY did they change the guidelines? What research did they use? Who's on the panel? Where do they work / what are their professional ties? (The one panelist quoted works for Kaiser Permanente.) And what does that mean to the whole story?
- Becky
Becky, it seems to me that there's a lot more room online for that kind of context! Through links, sidebars, etc. (And I'll move up to the other question.)
- Suzi Steffen
Suzi, yeah, there's room online for it, but that doesn't mean it should be totally neglected in print.
- Jen Nipps
'Evening all. We're talking about stories tonight. Do they have intrinsic value? Or should clicks and other Webby metrics be how we measure the true worth of a published piece? #editorchat
Please introduce yourselves as you join. I'm your co-host, Tim Beyers. Motley Fool tech contributor and freelancer covering tech, finance, business, and culture.
- Tim Beyers
Hi, all! Sorry I was late & missed last week. Jen Nipps, fl writer in south Oklahoma, soon to have a book of devotions out, possibly around Christmas.
- Jen Nipps
Glad you could make it, Tom. You too, Jen.
- Tim Beyers
Tom Feyer, letters editor of The New York Times. The opinions expressed here are solely my own. If I have to leave the chat, it's because the kids need the computer to do homework and our other computers are down.
- Thomas Feyer
Meryl K Evans, content maven aka writer who makes a living playing with words for clients and editors.
- Meryl K. Evans
We'll allow a few more minutes for intros and then dig in. Some background in the meantime: this topic is partly inspired by a conversation I had with Luke Beatty, founder of Associated Content, at the Defrag show in Denver last week.
- Tim Beyers
Charles Bohannan, part-time Associate Editor, blogger at Wordful
- Charles
Got me to wondering: Why do we always say "content?" Aren't we really talking about stories?
- Tim Beyers
Hi, Meryl & Tom. Good to see you all.
- Jen Nipps
Thanks for joining us, Meryl and Charles.
- Tim Beyers
Oh, btw...I forgot. If you're also on Twitter, I'm @jennipps.
- Jen Nipps
Story Maven just doesn't work for me, Tim. :) I think people will think I'm a storyteller ... for children... not businesses.
- Meryl K. Evans
"Content" and "product" -- bad. "Stories'' -- good.
- Thomas Feyer
I'm going to grab the rules. Keep introducing yourselves and then we'll dig in.
- Tim Beyers
Hey, hey, hey! It's Becky from Iow-ay!
- Becky
Hi ya, Becky. :)
- Jen Nipps
Rachel Hergett, editor and reporter at the Bozeman Daily Chronicle. I may be in and out tonight because I'm on the desk.
- Rachel Hergett
Hey, Jen! ;)
- Becky
Hi, all. On Twitter, I'm @tomfeyer. Uh-oh, Kid 2 just got home and has to do homework on this computer! Will try to come back later.
- Thomas Feyer
Glad you all could be here. Not sure where Lydia is but let's dig in. I'm sure she'll join us when she can.
- Tim Beyers
Well that was fast. Hopefully we'll see ya later, Tom.
- Jen Nipps
Thanks, Tom.We'll be here.
- Tim Beyers
Me @merylkevans on twitter...
- Meryl K. Evans
First question is up. Scroll to the top, friends.
- Tim Beyers
Hey all, Suzi Steffen from Eugene, Ore., here. Arts editor at an alt-weekly.
- Suzi Steffen
Hey all, finally here
- Lydia Dishman
Time for the rules. Tweeps, we're on FriendFeed at http://friendfeed.com/editorc... #editorchat
Rule No. 1 Observers welcome but #editorchat is for those who are, or those who work with, editors
- Tim Beyers
Rule No. 2 Stay on topic. #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
Rule No. 3. Courteous comments, please. (Thank you, sir. Ma’am.) #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
And everyone’s favorite rule — Rule No. 4. Spammers will be electrocuted. (Your computer *is* wired, pal.) #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
Rule No. 5 No crickets. We're here to chat; come join us. #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
Good evening all, welcome to #editorchat. I'm your co-host Lydia Dishman hoping that power doesn't go out because of all the wind we're having in our neck of SC.
Your other co-host here. Tim Beyers, Motley Fool tech contributor and freelancer covering tech, finance, business, and culture. Chatting from outside the exhibit area at the #defrag conference in Denver.
- Tim Beyers
Hi, Charles of Wordful LLC here in Hawaii
- Charles
Hey Charles. Good to see you here. Very light crowd. Hoping it picks up soon.
- Tim Beyers
from IM
Hi Charles:)
- Lydia Dishman
Hi Lydia and Tim, and others...?
- Charles
Guess we didn't get the crowd tonight, Charles. We'll close up shop early and promise to be too compelling to ignore next week.
- Tim Beyers
Fair enough. I really appreciate what both of you are doing here. 'See' you next week!
- Charles
Aw... I'm sorry not enough. Next week, then!
- Meryl K. Evans
Guess I'm too late.
- Rachel Hergett
Me too. Sorry.
- Jen Nipps
Disappointed we didn't get a crowd for #editorchat tonight. Please check back in next week, 8:30 pm eastern. @LydiaBreakfast and I will be here as always.
Well, it's that time. Please reintroduce yourselves and add a link if you'd like. #editorchat
Jen Nipps (@jennipps on Twitter), freelance writer in south Oklahoma specializing in creativity, writing, plus-size issues, and health. Main blog at http://jensorganizedwriter.wordpress.com. Too bad I came late to the party, but I'm glad I got to be in on it tonight. :)
- Jen Nipps
You all were great tonight, as you always are. Tim Beyers, Motley Fool tech contributor, freelancer covering tech, business, finance, and culture. Find me at http://timbeyers.com
- Tim Beyers
As always, thanks to Tim & Lydia. (Jane - publisher of Writer's Digest - my blog is at http://blog.writersdigest.com/norules.
- Jane Friedman
Folks, it has been a pleasure as usual. I'm Lydia Dishman, your co-host and the last general assignment reporter standing according to yet another one of my editors at Fast Company. I'm off to watch the Yankees - g-nite!
- Lydia Dishman
Erin Slattery (@efslattery on Twitter; good thinking, Jen), managing editor, Channel V Books. Personal blog is here: http://theghostinthepantry.wordpress.com. Thanks for a lively discussion, and to Tim and Lydia for organizing. :)
- E.F. Slattery
Timberly aka @willowbottom (more to do with a LOTR interest than a self-description): IT project manager by day; freelance writer the rest of the time normally in social media/networking/IT trends/research. Thanks to the Dynamic Lydia & Tim Duo for an always worthwhile time.
- Willowbottom
Charles Bohannan of Wordful in Hawaii (no I'm not on permanent vacation!), http://wordful.com, currently a part-time Associate Editor for a small local publishing company, seeking to realize the great things we talk about here on Editor Chat. Thanks Tim and Lydia as always!
- Charles
Great chat tonight, Tim and Lydia...as always. I'm Dee. Learn more and find me online here. http://www.google.com/profile...
- dee
Freelance journalist in Iowa. You can find me at Deep Muck Big Rake or huddled in front of my fireplace waiting for the moustrap to snap. Thanks for a great chat, Lydia & Tim!
- Becky
If the new model question begins and ends with what readers will pay for, should editors and writers be more invested in biz dev than they have been traditionally? #editorchat
If by biz dev you mean taking the time to draw up a business plan, mission, and long- and short-term goals, it'd be a darn good idea. (I've got part of that done, but not all.)
- Jen Nipps
I think everyone involved in all aspects of publishing need to be more invested in biz dev. A new model demands that everyone be pulling to make it work.
- Lydia Dishman
If you mean developing followings/readership, then yes, definitely.
- Jen Nipps
There is no such thing as a "pure" editor any more. If an editor isn't involved/invested in every dimension of the business they work in -- and that includes marketing and new business planning -- then they have no future in publishing.
- Jane Friedman
yes. this past weekend i had a discussion with the EIC for a mag I edit about leveraging the mag since some of the industry(gospel) giants had dropped print for online. she wasn't aware of the potential she had.
- dee
Writers should be doing more of the business-side of things than they have in the past. While some may have been entrepreneurial, many have not. I think it'll become the standard way of having a career as a writer unless you're James Patterson or Malcolm Gladwell.
- Meryl K. Evans
Jane, I've noticed/understood that from several editors I've heard at conferences recently, so I would have to agree.
- Jen Nipps
Of course. I call them (us?) Editor-Entrepreneurs. It shall go without saying henceforth :)
- Charles
If your question is whether writers should have a stake in defining their target market and cultivating that market, I totally agree.
- Willowbottom
I mean the whole process, as Jane specifies. I don't see how any writer can be entrepreneurial without fully understanding the economics of the business.
- Tim Beyers
And that can be intimidating as all get-out. lol. But it poses a challenge and I don't often back down from those. :)
- Jen Nipps
This a fine line, of course. If you're a journalist, helping to devise a plan to win more advertisers could create a serious conflict of interest, yes?
- Tim Beyers
It really could. I think it could cause some to have to choose which route to go, writing or advertising.
- Jen Nipps
(Applause.) That's for our friend, Willowbottom, who we haven't seen in an #editorchat for some time. Welcome back. (Plays Kotter theme.)
- Tim Beyers
Tim: Would it be a conflict of interest if you're going after a broad enough segment? But I still see courting the advertisers as a different question than understanding the business drivers.
- Willowbottom
It doesn't necessarily mean writers have to get advertisers, but they can drive traffic.
- Lydia Dishman
Actually, today's environment requires many of us to market ourselves and learn some business smarts. So it's not just writers and editors.
- Meryl K. Evans
I can see how it would apply if, as part of an assignment, writers have to develop/encourage some advertising.
- Jen Nipps
i feel it's a slippery slope when writers get involved in advertising. a conflict of interest definitely happens, but we can assist in the retention of our subscribers.
- dee
That's a good point. Understanding the business drivers -- and writing to the broad strokes -- may simply be smart business, and smart journalism.
- Tim Beyers
Yes. And where this leaves agents makes interesting food for thought...
- E.F. Slattery
*mini bow* My contributions are not worthy of the acclaim. But to the topic, writers can (and should) understand the economics of it all and writers can (and shouldn't they?) leverage their related networks for the sake of gaining visibility.
- Willowbottom
I think more creative thinking is needed on how to help advertisers reach an audience (they're having a tough time too) -- sometimes editorial people are the best ones to contribute good ideas. I didn't go to J-school, but some of the old thinking about editorial vs. advertising can be a barrier to innovative solutions that could help everyone.
- Jane Friedman
Willowbottom, agreed. I feel it is as much my responsibility as the magazines I'm published in to get my stories in front of readers.
- Lydia Dishman
Certainly so. I'll briefly plug for the Fool here. Had a conversation with one of my editors today about an aspect of our business that needs some attention right now. Increases my confidence in this business, which is my oldest and most important client.
- Tim Beyers
exactly, Tim. It's good to know that editors are listening to contributing editors.
- dee
I think perhaps advertisers need to be re-inventing their model alongside the media.
- Lydia Dishman
Jane, you're an editor. Would you go so far as to share financial data with one of your authors for the sake of building a better model? How open would you be?
- Tim Beyers
Lydia, so right. Publishing, for instance, shifted more of their marketing dollars toward PR last year than advertising.
- dee
Time to settle in for the night. Have a great night all. Thanks for another thought-provoker.
- Meryl K. Evans
Good to see you, Meryl. Have a good one.
- Jen Nipps
Tim, I was just thinking that I need to do a blog post revealing some financial data - on both the mag side and book side. It would definitely be eye-opening. As far as revealing that info to specific authors, I certainly would if I trusted them. Everyone needs to understand the challenges, and sometimes the numbers speak loudest.
- Jane Friedman
Thanks, Meryl. Glad you could be here.
- Tim Beyers
Thanks Meryl!
- Lydia Dishman
Night, Meryl. Good to meet you.
- dee
Maybe I'm naive here, but I see this as a one hand washing the other situation: writers learn the business pressures which can broaden their perspective plus help them self-promote. Likewise, the publishers can leverage the credibility and industry-specific network of their writers to better target.
- Willowbottom
i see what you see, willowbottom
- dee
Jane, I've always met with hesitation on the editors' parts when I've asked about the economics of their publication. Some clearly don't know, but others I believe, fear letting me know too much.
- Lydia Dishman
Lydia, and what is behind the fear in letting you know too much do you think? Is it that they fear loose lips sink ships? Just curious.
- Willowbottom
Lydia - Yes, there's a great deal of hesitation/fear, but I have no idea why. I tend to just distribute info freely, and expect people to use the information responsibly, and to trust them. We're in this together, after all.
- Jane Friedman
That could be, Willow. Also, perhaps they think writers have no business knowing any of "that stuff."
- Jen Nipps
I don't think that's naive, Willow. But I'll also say that I've only seen this pattern among the most enlightened editors I work with.
- Tim Beyers
The fear/hesitation may be related to: thinking authors will suddenly feel mistreated -- or that secrets are getting out to competitors.
- Jane Friedman
Loose lips, I think on the local level, as well as fear that if things weren't totally solid financially, that writers would stop writing. For national mags, I know one case where the editor really had no idea.
- Lydia Dishman
Jane, I'd like to work for you ;-)
- Lydia Dishman
Lydia, I know many cases when the editors had no idea
- dee
Can't believe I have to say this -- because this has been soooo good, thank you all -- but I have to hit the killjoy button. Leaving space for reintros and a link in the next post, coming above.
- Tim Beyers
Party pooper. ;)
- Jen Nipps
--> Jane, I'd like to work for you ;-) (Raises hand.) Me, too.
- Tim Beyers
Totally frustrates me when editors/staffers don't know the financial situation of their publication! Grr. I share this information constantly. It's essential to know. Livelihoods are on the line. (And thanks, Lydia.)
- Jane Friedman
And Tim :)
- Jane Friedman
Good evening all and welcome to the first #editorchat of November. I'm your co-host Lydia Dishman, freelance features writer for print and web.
Your other co-host here. Tim Beyers, tech contributor for The Motley Fool and freelancer covering tech, business, finance, and culture.
- Tim Beyers
hi, all
- dee
Please introduce yourselves as you join in.
- Lydia Dishman
Hey! Freezing in 28 degrees & killing varmints in Iow-ay!
- Becky
Suzi Steffen here. Arts editor at Eugene, OR's alt-weekly and adjunct instructor at U of Oregon's J-school (and about to live-blog an event, so will be popping in and out; West Coast timing issues ... ). My students are especially interested in this kind of discussion!
- Suzi Steffen
Jane Friedman - Publisher of Writer's Digest - Cincinnati
- Jane Friedman
Charles Bohannan here of Wordful LLC in Kamuela, Hawaii. Happy to be here again!
- Charles
Dee, Becky, Suzi -- glad you could all make it. And Suzi, thanks for the offer last week. We should talk more about using that resource as a back-up.
- Tim Beyers
Erin here (Channel V Books)... Are we the only people not watching the game? ;)
- E.F. Slattery
There's a game? ;-)
- Jane Friedman
Game? ;-)
- Suzi Steffen
Who said we weren't watching ;-)
- Lydia Dishman
Who says I'm not watching the game? (On DVR -- only in the top of the second here.)
- Tim Beyers
Glad you could make it, Jane and Erin. Should be an interesting conversation tonight.
- Tim Beyers
Game six of the World Series is on right now - Yanks and Phillies (Tim and I are both ex-NYers)
- Lydia Dishman
And big Yankees fans.
- Tim Beyers
Please nobody talk about the game I'm on Hawaii time and an recording it. Thanks!
- Charles
Who else is with us this evening? Please don't be shy :)
- Lydia Dishman
Dee Stewart. Hybrid: Editor, Blogger, PR firm owner. Atlanta. Edit for mainly Christian publications: Christian Entertainment. How are you all?
- dee
The article that is the basis of tonight's discussion is interesting.
- dee
Rules above. We'l get to the question shortly. And don't worry, Charles: I won't spill.
- Tim Beyers
Okay all, follow me up to the next box where we'll being the discussion thread.
- Lydia Dishman
Hi, all. Sorry I'm late. Jen (@jennipps on Twitter), freelance writer in south Oklahoma.
- Jen Nipps
Late to post on this thread and new to friendfeed. Willowbottom in Portland, OR - project manager by day, IT market research freelancer by night with family members rooting for both teams - so I'm neutral :)
- Willowbottom
Does the oft-expressed need for writers to see a better revenue split really necessitate a new business model? #editorchat
No doubt it varies for each publishing house, but I think most publishers are scrutinizing the strength of the old model in a rapidly changing climate. (And if you're a writer, the answer has to be yes.)
- E.F. Slattery
My guess is "abso-freaking-lutely." Revenue models are at the core of all biz models. How do you not change the publishing business without blowing up the revenue model?
- Tim Beyers
Yes, but I'm not sure of the specifics.
- Charles
not really. understandably, we've grown accustomed to our current and dying pay model. (i.e., publication pay us to write.)
- dee
Right, Erin. This is one of those crisis moments where everything is on the table. Also, if we accept that Jarvis is right -- he may not be, interested in hearing from dissenters -- entrepreneurs are hard-wired for disruption.
- Tim Beyers
How about this: writers get a base pay + commission based on page or site performance from ad or affiliate revenue (some sort of algorithm).
- Charles
I've seen this, Charles. How willing would the writers in this crowd be to operate under a pay-for-performance model? Maybe that's a better question for Harper Collins -- wonder how many top-tier authors are excited about risk-taking.
- Tim Beyers
[You'll have to excuse me...the time change (which we don't observe here in HI) has got me double timing with my "day job," thus I'm a little flighty on the responses/discussion]
- Charles
I hate to say it, but no matter what model we end up with, my gut says that writers will either be earning about the same as they do today, or maybe less. Looking at book publishing in particular, there just isn't the same money to go around, and authors, even with a 50-50 split, may never make the same kind of money as when they received a strong 5- or 6-figure advance. Especially if...
more...
- Jane Friedman
That's the fear, Jane, and I suspect your're right. Increasingly, publishing has become a volume game. I'm not sure how much more I can write.
- Tim Beyers
Tim: sure, it's a risk writers will have to be willing to take if they want to get in on the ground level of what could be a revolutionary publishing business model. Where else are they going to go?
- Charles
That's another reason why authors, especially those who have a decent fan base (10K + sales annual) to consider becoming independent, then they will get more of the money for their work.
- dee
Ian Paul here, freelance contributor to PC World. I like Arrington's idea for the New New York Times, it's essentially a leaner business model doing the same work, just cutting out the printing part and focusing on journalism. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009... I think most concepts for the future have to evolve from what's already out there. If you...
more...
- Ian Paul
Allow me to add yet another wrinkle here. Going by the "ideal models" below, the key to publishing profits -- as we see it -- isn't so different from the key to freelancing profits: repurposing content for profit. Yes? No?
- Tim Beyers
Yes, Tim, absolutely, and marketing/measuring it with great precision.
- Charles
Here. Catching up. Been a heckuva day.
- Meryl K. Evans
When it comes to publishing profits, I know I probably won't see the same volume as before (not the same circ levels, not the same book sales levels). So to make the same money/profits, I'm looking at: new types of products that usually involve repurposing of content, all new content (online sub models, events, digital products, education), raising prices when appropriate, and cutting all the fat.
- Jane Friedman
if there was a new business model that would be beneficial to writers, what would it look like?
- dee
Thanks for being here, Ian. We appreciate the comment. Arrington's riff is reminiscent of what Jarvis argues -- the top reporters are entrepreneurial anyway. What I think he misses is the value of the exclusive content that the NYT produces. Or maybe he just doesn't explicitly call it out.
- Tim Beyers
Or perhaps since the NYT has been around so long and has had some...issues, he discounts it?
- Jen Nipps
My thinking is the same as Jane's... no matter the model, it won't turn out better for writers.
- Meryl K. Evans
If so, Jen, I think that would be a mistake. The Times Book Review is still essential reading for many. Local restaurant reviews, etc.
- Tim Beyers
It seems to me that even magazines started by writers to pay writers better don't turn out that well, Meryl.
- Jen Nipps
I agree, Tim. I definitely agree. :) I'm just guess-timating.
- Jen Nipps
Because the revenue stream hasn't caught up with the pay roll. Ads don't work, subscrips don't work, so what to use to pay?
- Lydia Dishman
Why won't it turn out better for writers, Meryl? There are hundreds of opportunities to publish (ebooks or print) that didn't exist five years ago, let alone ten or twenty. My instinct is that if writers started to think of themselves as entrepreneurs (or if those who weren't already, did), they would seek out a model and publishing process that they have more control over.
- E.F. Slattery
Erin, I think it boils down to the cost of doing business regardless of how they try to keep overhead costs down.
- Jen Nipps
Just a quick insert here, and for the record: We've had entrepreneurial writers for years. We call them freelancers. (Many of them, anyway.)
- Tim Beyers
Very good point, Tim. :) Even with freelancers though, there are some who are definitely more entrepreneurial than others.
- Jen Nipps
Hear hear!
- Lydia Dishman
Underpaying writers is a problem that needs to be a the forefront of solutions. I can see why writers have incentive to strike out on their own, but the technology and marketing is already a full-time job.
- Charles
that's a hard one, lydia. I had someone email me this weekend. They asked me if I could tell them for free how to make money online for free? i emailed them back and told them i make money by charging a fee for my service. They didn't respond. In short many expect free content. they don't see that these free content providers are searching for ways to monetize some of this content.
- dee
Much depends on how much money readers will pay for content (because readers pay writers either directly or indirectly). Which publishers are going to produce content that is so irresistible, people won't think twice about paying for it? Few of such publishers exist nowadays, IMHO. But a good example? McSweeney's.
- Jane Friedman
The other question is what kind of credibility will these new models have in the eyes of the reader/consumer? Will they value books, for example, that come from self-publishing writers? They don't now, do they? Even if you take a mainstream writer with a big following, Stephen King or someone like that, would future books succeed without a "stamp of authority" from a third-party aka the publisher?
- Ian Paul
Erin, I agree that writers need to think of themselves as entrepreneurs. But so much is coming out and we can only buy and read so much. Then there are the content mills they pay piddly. It could beget more.
- Meryl K. Evans
Charles, so true. And for indie writers there is more risk and investment, so the bottom line may be close to someone writing for a publisher.
- dee
As far as self-publishing goes, the stigma against it is because there is so much unedited drivel out there. I've recently been coming across more professional, edited self-pub'd books, but they're still pretty scarce.
- Jen Nipps
Exactly, Dee, which comes back to the today's original question about a new publishing business model...it's badly needed.
- Charles
I'm not so sure about that, Ian. Social media is a leveler. When publishers can no longer control the channel that tells us what to read, quality storytelling -- irrespective of publisher -- gets the nod. A following is more important than a seal, I think.
- Tim Beyers
And conversely Tim, it tells people that they can (and should) get content for free.
- Lydia Dishman
Good point, Jane. The new model question begins and ends with what the reader will buy.
- Tim Beyers
Yes, Tim, that's been a fundamental change worth noting.
- Charles
When PW's list of the year's top novels is all male, I think the gatekeeping system can stand to be shaken up...
- E.F. Slattery
Byron Krystad here from Seattle, checking in late. On the self-publishing theme that Jen continues, are writer/editor partnerships without traditional publishers a new model? Join quality product with social media distribution? Not sure about the "should be free" assumption by readers, though.
- Byron Krystad
Is it normal for PW to release the year's top books when we have two months left of the year? I don't recall this.
- Meryl K. Evans
Or do they go by a fiscal calendar instead of the yearly calendar?
- Jen Nipps
Great question, Tim. What will the reader buy?
- dee
Last question coming. Scroll to the top in 30 seconds.
- Tim Beyers
It seems to me that if there were to be an innovation in the writer compensaton business model, any individual gains would be offset by unanticipated costs unless some kind of related value-add was incorporated with.
- Willowbottom
You may have read the @jeffjarvis piece on entrepreneurs being the future of journalism so the main question is this: What publishing business would you start today --and how would you do it?
Here's the article for those who haven't seen it: http://seekingalpha.com/article...
- Tim Beyers
I'll float an idea to get us started. I think the publishing business is moving towards confederations. Confederations of writers serving thinly-staffed magazines, confederations of authors and book editors working with book publishers or even self-publishing, and so on. Comments?
- Tim Beyers
that's already happening
- dee
The confederation model could definitely be a key model. There's now a "collective" of writers who are doing pretty much exactly what you describe to self-publish and distribute books, within a specific interest area/genre (Le Guin oriented).
- Jane Friedman
Can you give us some examples of confederations, Dee?
- Tim Beyers
Ones you like or admire, I mean?
- Tim Beyers
Taking Jarvis's metaphor, I think it's absolutely true that publishers have to be entrepreneurs (and I
- E.F. Slattery
to a certain extend Dee, it is, but I think people are still not willing to give it a name and make it "official" business.
- Lydia Dishman
I've seen that headline several times, but I haven't read the article yet. Going to look now ...
- Becky
true. it has happened organically in my experience
- dee
Link to sci-fi publishing collective: http://www.thebookseller.com/news...
- Jane Friedman
Jane, do you think there's a movement to organize the collective into a confederation ... or whatever we want to call it?
- Tim Beyers
Taking a cue from Jarvis, writers and publishers are going to have to become entrepreneurs--which means shaking up the traditional model, a la HarperStudio's 50-50 split with authors, or (as you mentioned) self-pubbing.
- E.F. Slattery
Authors do most of the legwork anymore anyway ... even WITH big publishing houses.
- Becky
I like what I'm hearing about Harper Studio, Erin. I'm not a book author (yet), so I can't speak to their business. Can anyone here give a better perspective on their model?
- Tim Beyers
I tend to think along the lines of Mike Shatzkin: big publishers who are more mass-market (general audience) oriented will continue to consolidate and focus on the bestsellers, then small presses and collectives that have niche orientations will develop to support works that aren't of bestseller stature.
- Jane Friedman
I'd start a niche content publishing business that produces small but powerful websites i.e. Big Island of Hawaii site (with excellent content, of course) monetized with hotel, tour affiliate links and maybe an ebook that offers "insider secrets" or something to that effect
- Charles
Harper Studio does not pay a heavy advance, but gives the author marketing money and a better payout on the back end from what I gathered
- dee
As far as I know (and I'm not affiliated w/ HS), they offer a 50-50 profit share, Tim, rather than the traditional royalties.
- E.F. Slattery
I'd like to deal with neighborhood blogging and iPhones, Blackberries, etc - maybe apps for other smart phones that aren't served yet. (But this is not about books.)
- Suzi Steffen
HarperStudio offers a partnership model that theoretically eliminates really large advances, and incentivizes authors to market/promote through significant royalties. I have to question whether it's really 50-50, though. As someone who negotiates contracts on behalf of a book publisher, that's a tough model to make work.
- Jane Friedman
Interesting, Suzi. There is a publisher whose name I can't remember that is solely focused on publishing content for iPhones and other smartphones. Audio reporting.
- Tim Beyers
Thanks to Charles and Suzi for reminding us of the original question. What would your ideal publishing business look like were you to start it today?
- Tim Beyers
Definitely--if I had to pick five people to watch as publishing evolves, Mike Shatzkin would be at the top of the list, along with Andrew Savikas, Cory Doctorow, and others...
- E.F. Slattery
Let's not forget that AOL is quietly amassing a huge number of freelance journalists to provide content for their Web site.
- Lydia Dishman
Jane, I agree. It's not 50/50 but the cost of publishing and gaining good distributors makes the unilateral partnership a bit more agreeable.Thomas Nelson is doing something similar with Waterbrook Press. You can independent publish, but have the backing of the company and their distributors. Distribution is a big deal/
- dee
Distribution and publicity, Dee. Getting authors PR is a big piece of the revenue puzzle, don't you think?
- Lydia Dishman
I would like to start a publishing business that looks at the writer as an information asset then just an author. I would want to take a story and turn it into a book, ebook, graphic novel if it can turnover into that and possible script, since movies aren't as expensive to make.
- dee
As a publicist, Lydia...for sure... but you can promote all day long, but if the book can't be found then it hurts business. Last summer I experienced something similar with a major publishing house at a national book event. We had to call around to all the bookstores in town just to get more books, because there was a problem with their Central Florida distributor.
- dee
Per my earlier entry: The smartphone publisher I referred to is Sniplits: http://www.sniplits.com/index...
- Tim Beyers
Ideal publishing model: has a distinct target (probably niche) audience that is easily reached via online methods. Print products are premium products. Authors make most of their money not on the sale of print books, but on a variety of content offerings and personalization efforts. See Cory Doctorow's experiment - http://www.publishersweekly.com/article... - I think that's one future I see for authors, at the very least.
- Jane Friedman
Jane -- that's exactly what I have in mind.
- Charles
If you want to scale the model that Jane and I are talking about, you can brand your content and build a large media company from that.
- Charles
Doctorow's experiment *is* interesting. Made me think of open source after I read it, perhaps because I cover tech. Open source publishing?
- Tim Beyers
Quietly amassing ... yes, but does AOL plan to PAY those freelance journalists?
- Becky
Going to a new question above.
- Tim Beyers
O'Reilly has done terrific stuff with open-source publishing, soliciting feedback from readers at every step of the way (for tech manuals). Interesting implications for other genres...
- E.F. Slattery
Becky- apparently yes, I know people who have written and been paid.
- Lydia Dishman
Doctorow had a pretty big name before he started the open source book writing, I think. But he's addressed that rather directly in a recent column for the Guardian. In any case, I think open source is fascinating - like musicians giving music away and making money from concerts.
- Suzi Steffen
Whoops, I see you're on the next question (going back and forth from a live blog for my job ;-) ).
- Suzi Steffen
Keep going on intros and anything else you want to discuss as I go to the rules. Tweeps, we're on FriendFeed at http://friendfeed.com/editorc... #editorchat
Rule No. 1 Observers welcome but #editorchat is for those who are, or those who work with, editor
- Tim Beyers
Rule No. 2 Stay on topic. #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
Rule No. 3. Courteous comments, please. (Thank you, sir. Ma’am.) #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
And everyone’s favorite rule — Rule No. 4. Spammers will be electrocuted. (Your computer *is* wired, pal.) #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
Rule No. 5 No crickets. We're here to chat; come join us. #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
Tonight's #editorchat is a brainstorm. Thanks to @jeffjarvis for inspiring this guiding question: If you were building a publishing biz today, what would it look like? More: http://seekingalpha.com/article...
Writing as I watch the snow and the World Series and wait for tonight's #editorchat. We're asking for your scary #publishing stories for tonight's Halloween edition.
Well, it's that time. Please reintroduce yourselves before you go and provide a link if you'd like. #editorchat
Becky, freelancing (and freezing) in Iowa. You can find me at Deep Muck Big Rake. Thanks, Lydia & Tim for another great chat!
- Becky
Tim Beyers, also freezing but nestled along the southern base of the Rockies in southwest Denver. Your co-host here and Motley Fool tech contributor. My latest rant about corporate malfeasance: http://www.fool.com/investi...
- Tim Beyers
Corporate malfeasance. Yum. Better go get some. :)
- Becky
Thanks to everyone who joined in tonight. Well done.
- Tim Beyers
How damaging is getting an erroneous scoop if you have to back-pedal because of a hoax? #editorchat
To the writer, the publication, or both?
- Jennifer Willis
Both.
- Tim Beyers
Not very. You just play up the hoax.
- Georganna Hancock
It doesn't seem to hurt news orgs that much anymore. Look at CBS, CNN and others -- Tailhook and the George W. Bush National Guard story before the 2004 election. It hurts the media org for a week or two, but life goes on.
- LisaGemini
I think it depends on how the error is handled.
- Jennifer Willis
And who the error hurt.
- Shelly Bowen
In my eyes? Very damaging. But I'm old & cranky.
- Becky
If you can admit the mistake -- possibly even come clean as to how precisely the mistake was made (e.g., we relied on this source when we shouldn't have) -- that will go a long way toward repairing credibility and trust.
- Jennifer Willis
Georganna, you're right. Most news orgs get obsessed with the hoax and covering every last angle for the 24-7 news cycle.
- LisaGemini
What's the ideal, Jennifer? For the rest: How have you handled errors in the past? Deceptions that burned you?
- Tim Beyers
It's almost as if nobody cares anymore. Although ... after Jon Stewart lambasted CNN for "let's just leave it there," I swear I saw one of the anchors flinch the next day. ;)
- Becky
Jennifer, what about cases like CBS, where they went on for weeks and weeks and wouldn't admit the National Guard story relied on fake evidence?
- LisaGemini
Admit the error, plain and simple. Covering it up can leave you looking incompetent and/or deceitful.
- Jennifer Willis
I'm so careful, I've never been taken it. I have been the one reporting a hoax, scam, flim-flam, etc.
- Georganna Hancock
LOL, Becky...That Jon Stewart show was priceless!
- LisaGemini
I also think the scope of the damage depends upon the reputation of the news org and its record for scoops. The one that's always right that gets one wrong will suffer because it's held to a high standard. TMZ? Not so much.
- Tim Beyers
Lisa, I think the longer an org relies on or pushes erroneous stories or facts, the worse they look. Just because you keep saying something over and over doesn't make it true, you know?
- Jennifer Willis
True, Tim. I think they count on that.
- Becky
Unless that #curecancer thing yesterday was a hoax. I participated because of (.)(.) cancer.
- Georganna Hancock
Tim, I write magazine features, not breaking news now. But even when I was writing news, I never had something bit me like that. I agree with Jennifer: Admit the error ASAP and put it on the front page or in a prominent place in the newscast. Don't bury it.
- LisaGemini
Time for me to sign off.... Thanks for the great discussion! :)
- Jennifer Willis
Great to have you, Jennifer. Please come again!
- LisaGemini
Media literacy. You won't get everyone / anyone to take journalism classes. But I'd like to see media literacy being taught to children AND adults.
- Becky
I agree, Becky, beginning with statistics. How to write and read them.
- Georganna Hancock
Becky, that would make my life so much easier! How can we get them interested?
- Shelly Bowen
Tim, don't you think that MSM like the Wall St. Journal are held to a higher standard than all Web sites/new media?
- LisaGemini
It's sort of painful. I now have to explain to my 7- and 5-year-olds that not everything they see on television is true.
- Becky
I think too often, people assume that WSJ and others are infallible, which makes it harder when they fall
- Lydia Dishman
I'll raise my hand, then. I'm a perfectly imperfect writer who has made *many* mistakes. I agree with Jennifer; admit the mistake, offer an apology, do better next time, and always be outstanding at disclosure.
- Tim Beyers
Oh, Lisa. Yeah, the WSJ *was* ... then Rupert Murdoch bought it.
- Becky
Agree with Becky to a degree, but yes Lisa: I do believe most of the MSM is held to a high standard, higher than blogs and most news reporting websites.
- Tim Beyers
I don't know, Shelly. Some news orgs are teaching media literacy in schools. Would be great to expand.
- Becky
They *should* be held to a higher standard, Tim.
- Becky
Let's close this Q on by refining the question: What do you do to suss out a scam before you report it? What steps do you take?
- Tim Beyers
Agree with that too, Becky. They've lost some cachet, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be held to a higher standard.
- Tim Beyers
That probably has a lot to do with how much experience the reporter and his editor have, Tim. The more experienced, the more likely they'll be skeptical and ask enough sources the right questions to verify every detail.
- LisaGemini
On scams, I participated, if necessary to discern the facts, and tried to discover the source, go after the big dogs. Name names.
- Georganna Hancock
If a fact sounds fishy, check it with another reliable source. And avoid using anonymous sources.
- LisaGemini
It's dinnertime in CA -- chat with ya all next week!
- Shelly Bowen
Good points. I'd add talk to outside sources, sources who can verify what you're hearing or allow you to challenge assumptions. I'd also avoid secondary research whenever possible.
- Tim Beyers
Invest in a good BS-o-meter.
- Becky
Lisa, I agree, but what if the only way to get the real deal is to allow the source to remain anonymous?
- Lydia Dishman
Heh, Becky. I can spot one a mile away.
- Georganna Hancock
It comes down to being a smart professional, Tim.
- LisaGemini
Lydia, you have a point. It depends on the source and whether he has an axe to grind. You have to check him out thoroughly, then use him if needed. But it's better to use someone with a name.
- LisaGemini
One story I was following had a lot of sticky info that could get people fired, so the only way I could get anything was to have them speak off the record.
- Lydia Dishman
Find another source. Or more.
- Becky
Lydia, it's like Wikipedia. An anonymous source can be a starting point.
- Becky
I agree, Becky. Often you can find a better source. Lydia, I don't get many stories like that. :) So, easier said than done.
- LisaGemini
Let's be more specific, Lisa. Don't disagree with anything you've said but what does "being a smart professional" look like? I'm asking because we have lurkers here, too. And we can all learn from each other. (That is why Lydia and I stared this forum in the first place.)
- Tim Beyers
Agreed. I recently turned down a pitch because the source wouldn't go on the record. Story made no sense using Jane Doe, as it were.
- Tim Beyers
I mean -- be skeptical of everyone and his hidden agenda. Remember to ask yourself: What's his motive? Does he have an axe to grind? What happens if we don't get a scoop on this story? Is it more important to be right, not first? You have to know what your org considers important, and how to ask your editor what he wants.
- LisaGemini
Any thoughts on secondary research? Does it matter? Or are your editors demanding primary research when citing statistics and the like. (Big for me, since I'm writing about stocks.)
- Tim Beyers
Excellent, Lisa. Thank you.
- Tim Beyers
Ultimately, it comes down to knowing your beat and good communication with your sources.
- LisaGemini
I feel better with primary stuff, and will continue digging until I get it myself. Takes longer but at least I am covered.
- Lydia Dishman
Keep going here while I issue the killjoy warning in the box above.
- Tim Beyers
Sometimes sniffing out the hoax is simple if you just stick to the basics. Try to answer the Ws & H. If you have trouble, there's probably a good reason.
- Becky
Also, you need a lot of curiosity to be good in journalism. Always think of new questions and take questions from your editor and other writers to heart. Most important: listen and observe. You might miss something major if you don't.
- LisaGemini
Amen, Lisa!
- Becky
Yes, I'd add that the best among us -- and I'm not including myself in this group, not by a long shot -- tend to follow interviews wherever they lead, often to places unexpected and illuminating. The more a source talks, the more you learn.
- Tim Beyers
And there's the killjoy alarm. Space for reintroductions and a link in the box above. (Great group here tonight.)
- Tim Beyers
Aw, Tim, you're too modest. I'm sure that you do exactly that, if you know so much about it. :)
- LisaGemini
I'm going to duck out, y'all. Great editorchat tonight. I learned a lot. Good night!
- LisaGemini
Very kind of you, Lisa. Thanks. But I am serious; my career is built from the time and tolerance of others far better at this than I.
- Tim Beyers
Five minutes to reintros. Post your final thoughts and then we'll close up shop in five. #editorchat
Already? Waaaaaaaah!
- Becky
I've got to sign off early to be sociable to my house guest. G'night all and thanks for coming, I'm your co-host Lydia Dishman, freelance writer and contributor to Entrepreneur, Fast Company, etc. See you next week!
- Lydia Dishman
Does accuracy suffer at the altar of speed? Should writers wait for the events to unfold before rushing to report? #editorchat
I think a lot of times, accuracy *does* suffer. Unless it's a national emergency, nothing will hurt for anyone to wait a bit to make sure they've got it right first.
- Jen Nipps
Can I just say yes? The 24-hour news cycle is killing accuracy. I am probably old-fashioned, but I'd rather the news be right than super fast. Where is Walter Cronkite when we need him?
- LisaGemini
Outlets want breaking news to increase readership. Even after it was discovered there was no boy in that balloon, the anchors and commentators kept on yakking -- often speculating wildly about what may have happened to that boy, just to keep viewers tuned in (= market share and increased advertising revenues). Accuracy definitely suffers when your aim is titillation and keeping eyeballs on your channel/screen/page.
- Jennifer Willis
Lisa, if that makes you old-fashioned, then so am I. :)
- Jen Nipps
With Twitter and bloggers, the news never really gets the scoop, so why not wait and report something correctly?
- Lydia Dishman
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
- Becky
And ... yes.
- Becky
I guess Beck-ay agrees? ;-)
- Lydia Dishman
I suppose the real question becomes, do you want to report it first, or do you want to report it right?
- Jennifer Willis
I for one, think there is value in waiting. But I'm kinda old school :)
- Lydia Dishman
Jennifer, I agree! The publicity stunt was a ratings scoop for cable news. I also agree with you, Lydia. Once again, accuracy is getting lost in the equation.
- LisaGemini
It's all about being first and keeping the ratings. I think this will continue until someone comes along and makes "accuracy" as valuable. I think that day is coming sooner rather than later.
- littlebrownpen
Too bad we don't have our friends from the NYT or WSJ here but I think they'd answer that you strive for both because you have to. Scoops still matter. They just used to matter more, or maybe they still matter just as much?
- Tim Beyers
Lydia, it's not old school to want your facts correct. In fact, when I was in J-school, ppl who got a fact error got a big, fat "F." :) Reporters who constantly mess up should be fired.
- LisaGemini
Also, whatever happened to fact checkers? Do they work in newsrooms or have they been cut like the other jobs?
- LisaGemini
For me, the question is whether the breaking news model is broken. Has Twitter killed it?
- Tim Beyers
Lisa, I think the majority of them have been cut.
- Jen Nipps
I am responsible for checking my facts on all my stories: local, regional and national
- Lydia Dishman
Yeah, but it's not a scoop anymore when it's on Twitter & CNN.
- Becky
I think fact checkers are among the sacrificed
- littlebrownpen
I don't think Twitter has helped, Tim. Though it has been a boon to the spreading of rumor and urban legend. ;)
- Jennifer Willis
Wish there were more fact checkers, Lisa. But I think most of them went out with the beverage carts.
- Tim Beyers
Nah, not yet. You still have to check out what you read on Twitter. Citizen journos are not always reliable.
- LisaGemini
Tim, I don't think Twitter killed it. I think it was dying long before Twitter became so popular/accepted.
- Jen Nipps
Fact-checkers are the first to go, Lisa.
- Becky
Yes, Tim. Twitter owns "breaking" news.
- Becky
Twitter does have a new feature that explains what the trending topic is, and they reported correctly that Kanye was indeed, still alive.
- Lydia Dishman
I almost wish there were some kind of required, basic journalism course in high school, since there are so many citizen journalists running around. Even in prep school, we were told to get multiple sources on facts before including information in academic papers.
- Jennifer Willis
And that's both sad and scary, Becky. Fact-checkers should have job security, IMO.
- Jen Nipps
It's a damn shame. Although, when I worked in newspapers, fact checkers were also known as EDITORS.
- LisaGemini
You have to check out what you read EVERYWHERE. But Twitter especially.
- Becky
I'd go further; I'd say citizens journos are often unreliable. Still, Nichole makes a fair point. Wasn't everyone racing to break the next fact in the balloon boy story? How does the cycle get broken? Can we writers help editors address this problem?
- Tim Beyers
Jennifer, so was I. I did take journalism in high school and then was stupid and didn't go that direction in college.
- Jen Nipps
Actually, I saw regular folks on Twitter "calling" it early on. "Oh, this can't be real. This is a hoax." A little healthy skepticism, maybe?
- Becky
Could be. And good for them, too. :)
- Jen Nipps
Jen Nipps: I didn't study journalism -- or work for the campus paper -- in college, either. Really wish I had now.... I'm glad I got the experience I did in prep school, and that I've always been conscientious. But most of my training was "on the job."
- Jennifer Willis
Tim, writers can help editors by making their stories as perfect and accurate as possible. But editors still have the responsibility to look for holes or errors in the story and ask the writer to clarify them.
- LisaGemini
I knew it was a hoax at the first clip. The parents weren't acting "right".
- Georganna Hancock
Agreed. If writers got their stories perfect all the time, would there be a need for editors?
- Jennifer Willis
Welcome, Georganna! Hope you're doing well.
- LisaGemini
Sorry to slip in late. Was out whooping it up for my birthday. Thanks Lisa
- Georganna Hancock
Well, perfection is in the eye of the beholder. Editors are there to have your back, in case the writer forgets something important.
- LisaGemini
Hi, Georganna! Good to see you. Happy birthday.
- Jen Nipps
What one thing would you commit to in breaking this cycle in your own reporting? Would you go so far as to refuse a breaking news assignment? Let's get specific.
- Tim Beyers
from IM
Yes, Jennifer. We can always find something good for editors to do. :)
- Becky
I wouldn't refuse, but I wouldn't put it out until I was sure I was square on all the details
- Lydia Dishman
Happy birthday, Georganna!
- Becky
No, I wouldn't refuse a breaking news assignment, but having one or two others on the story would help a lot.
- LisaGemini
If I were offered a breaking news assignment, I think I would actually take it at this point. But I'd darn sure do the best I could to get it as right as possible before turning it in.
- Jen Nipps
Thanks, Becky, et al. Say, you're not MY Becky, are you?
- Georganna Hancock
Of course, I realize having two ppl working one story is impossible in today's cost-cutting newsrooms. Best you can do is have someone else read the story and see what you might have missed.
- LisaGemini
RE breaking news assignments.... Maybe we can break the cycle of reporting on speculation (even when it's identified as such), and report only facts instead? Certainly makes for a less sexy story, but at least it would be more accurate.
- Jennifer Willis
Depends on the assignment, Tim. If it meant digging for information on the people involved, shooting photos or interviewing, yeah, I'd do that. If it meant going on air in 30 seconds? No.
- Becky
I would always take the opp to report breaking news, but I'm a stickler for accuracy.
- Georganna Hancock
Jennifer, you have gotten to the crux of it. Stop the speculating and analyzing on camera and just report the FACTS, ma'am. Nothing else. There's enough news happening to cut to another story.
- LisaGemini
Your Becky? Hmm. What did I do now? :)
- Becky
So let's take this further -- because, well, I'm in a worst-case-scenario sort of mood -- say you're halfway or three-quarters of the way done with the assignment, you still need to check facts, yet your editor is screaming for the story. What do you do? Turn it in? Refuse?
- Tim Beyers
You're right, Lisa. Speculation and sensationalism are for the tabloid shows, not for actual news. Sheesh.
- Jen Nipps
But then, I don't even care to see the talking heads after the State of the Union address. Who cares what pundits think? I can always read that in the Washington Post or something; I don't need it on cable news.
- LisaGemini
LisaGemini -- exactly. Too many news programs and publications have started down the slippery slope toward entertainment rather than informing.
- Jennifer Willis
I'm an editor/web content strategist, not a journalist, but I'd say transparency is key here. If you don't *know*, say so.
- Shelly Bowen
That's excellent, Shelly!
- Jennifer Willis
Tough question, Tim. Ideally, I'd say check the facts. But at the same time, I'm not very confrontational and fear I would just turn it in,
- Jen Nipps
I think ppl would respect journos more if they admitted what they don't know. We had accuracy and credibility drummed into our heads in J-school. Without the first, you lose the latter.
- LisaGemini
Tim, are you positing reporting on rumors and the infamous unnamed source? Usually SOMEONE has said SOMETHING.
- Georganna Hancock
I would SO refuse, Tim. If they took what I had and ran with it, I would insist they remove my name from it. Then I'd probably quit. And go smoke & drink. Wait. This isn't 1982, is it? ;)
- Becky
But in that case, too, I wonder if it would be possible to stick something in that would say the "reporting" was preliminary and not all facts were in at press time?
- Jen Nipps
It seems that credibility isn't valued by news orgs like it used to be.
- LisaGemini
That's classic, Becky. Just freaking classic.
- Tim Beyers
I think "credibility" has been replaced by "market share"....
- Jennifer Willis
Isn't adding in speculative items and then going out to see if they are facts rather time-consuming and counterproductive?
- Georganna Hancock
Maybe not "replaced" Jennifer, but definitely influenced by market share. Got to get those eyeballs.
- Shelly Bowen
If you're on deadline, you go with what you know.
- Georganna Hancock
I'm asking this question because I know of at least one instance where an editor pressed for a story before all the facts were in. Also, Georganna: Yes, I am assuming something has been said, but that there's more story to report and what you have could very well be inaccurate or misleading if published as is.
- Tim Beyers
Yes, Georganna, it sure can be. But look at how the NY Times has lost so much credibility with reporters who made up stories and all. Once you lose your credibility, it can be almost impossible to regain it.
- LisaGemini
No one appears to be sanctioning speculative items, rather whether it is okay to go out with the bare minimum of facts and then update as more comes in.
- Lydia Dishman
Why not, Lydia? Broadcast journalism does it all the time.
- Georganna Hancock
Lydia, unless you can get an exclusive interview where you learn more facts, the best thing to do is update as more news comes in.
- LisaGemini
But isn't the report-in-process model *the* model nowadays? News orgs seemed built for speed, which is ironic -- so are all the wire services they spend money subscribing to.
- Tim Beyers
Yes, but just because it's the model doesn't always make it right. News orgs get obsessed with the breaking news, but there may be other more important stories to run while you're waiting for updates.
- LisaGemini
LisaGemini -- but that's a fine line, yes? Not quite prizing speed over accuracy, but damn close. The first iteration of the story could be wildly misleading, because not all the facts are in.
- Tim Beyers
Yes, Tim, but if the first iteration is wrong, you explain that and report the latest facts.
- LisaGemini
On the other hand, CNN is known for its live coverage. I didn't watch, so I don't really know how it went. But I'm guessing it was live feed and commentary. As much as I criticize ... they get it right more than they get it wrong. Whereas other "news" outlets get it wrong more than right. TMZ shoots craps and guesses at the outcome of a story. They get one or two right but trip up everywhere else. Twitter is loaded with false AMBER alerts and other questionable "breaking" news.
- Becky
Where we seem to be is that this is a fine line, and we'd all prefer to report with time on our side and accurately. On the other hand, I'd bet we're all used to compressed deadlines. I'd love to hear some best practices for toeing the line well, in a way that helps the editors we work with.
- Tim Beyers
Where CNN gets it wrong is when they actually used TMZ as a first source. *sigh*
- Becky
In the meantime, Q2 is going live above.
- Tim Beyers
That leads to our next question - please follow up to the next window.
- Lydia Dishman
As much as I'd love to stay and participate more, I have a couple deadlines I need to work on, speaking of.
- Jen Nipps
And we are live folks, welcome to the hoaxes and hold 'em edition of #editorchat.
With the Rocky Mountain snow in the background.
- Tim Beyers
How-day, how-day! Becky here from Iow-ay! And just rain, not snow, today. Yay.
- Becky
Please introduce yourself as you join. Who are, what you're writing or editing now.
- Tim Beyers
Hey Becky. Too juicy a topic to resist, eh?
- Tim Beyers
Intro time:Tim Beyers, your co-host, Motley Fool tech contributor, and freelancer covering tech, business, and culture.
- Tim Beyers
Oh, so many things to blog about recently, Tim. And this? Well. This is a peach that fell from the top of the tree. ;)
- Becky
Or from the UFO-shaped balloon :-)
- Tim Beyers
Lydia Dishman your other host, freelance features writer for online and print mags on biz, travel, food and style.
- Lydia Dishman
Okay, people, you're making me nervous. News bulletin: Tonight's #editorchat is NOT A HOAX. Get in the game! (Grins.)
- Tim Beyers
I'm here!
- Becky
Waiting for intros & questions. But even FF seems to get a bit hung up tonight.
- Becky
Grrrrr. Was very annoyed at Twitter today. Couldn't tweet at all b/c somebody posted the RIP Kanye West hoax. It sort of got my hopes up! Nah, seriously, I have nothing against the guy. He's just a jackass. LOL
- LisaGemini
Hey Lisa. Glad you could make it. We'd like to get at least a couple more people. I'll wait two more minutes for people to join, then go to the rules if we get a quorum.
- Tim Beyers
Hi, everyone. Sorry I'm late. Jen (@jennipps on Twitter), fl writer in south Oklahoma specializing in creativity, writing, health, and plus-size issues.
- Jen Nipps
Hey. I finally figured out friend feed. Totally late to the party.
- littlebrownpen
Comment: I laugh every time I see "breaking" on twitter. As if.
- Becky
Yeah, for you and a thousand other people. Gah.
- Becky
Let's get this breaking party started ;-)
- Lydia Dishman
Going to the rules now.
- Tim Beyers
Yeah ... I'm coming up. :)
- Becky
Aw, do we have to chat about #balloonboy?. That dad gets on my last nerve. LOL
- LisaGemini
it's not about him, it is about scooping a hoax, any hoax
- Lydia Dishman
I admit. I saw NONE of the live coverage. Only those tweeting about it. I still haven't read an entire story about it either.
- Becky
Me neither, Becky.
- Jen Nipps
Lucky you. I read the blog post, though. So I get what we're chatting about. Great idea.
- LisaGemini
(Raises hand.) Me, either. Ashamed to admit this but the most I heard of the story was from a) my parents and b) TMZ. Seriously.
- Tim Beyers
I'd like to say I smelled a rat from the beginning. But, really? I think I just had "reality-show" burnout. News resembles reality shows anymore.
- Becky
At least back in the day, they KNEW it was OJ in the white Bronco.
- Becky
Yes, the reality show mentality seems to be spilling over into other areas of society. I don't even watch any of them.
- LisaGemini
What MSM news needs to learn is ... ANYONE can tweet. Not everyone can do news.
- Becky
Agreed!
- Jen Nipps
roll down to the question box ladies and gents and let's keep going there
- Lydia Dishman
Keep going on intros and anything else you want to discuss as I go to the rules. Tweeps, we're on FriendFeed at http://friendfeed.com/editorc... #editorchat
Rule No. 1 Observers welcome but #editorchat is for those who are, or those who work with, editors
- Tim Beyers
Rule No. 2 Stay on topic. #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
Rule No. 3. Courteous comments, please. (Thank you, sir. Ma’am.) #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
And everyone’s favorite rule — Rule No. 4. Spammers will be electrocuted. (Your computer *is* wired, pal.) #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
Lisa Cunningham, freelance writer and editor with 20 years experience, at your service. Hi, y'all!
- LisaGemini
Rule No. 5 No crickets. We're here to chat; come join us. #editorchat
- Tim Beyers
Hey everyone. Freelance writer and friendfeed newbie.
- littlebrownpen
I'm late to the party.... Jennifer Willis here - Portland-based freelance writer and brand new to friendfeed.
- Jennifer Willis
Almost time for #editorchat, folks. Please check the blog post at http://www.editorchat.net/2009... for details. Yes, we are talking about #balloonboy, among other things.
Unnamed media outlet may have been in on balloon boy hoax: http://www.google.com/hostedn... #editorchat
We're on hiatus tonight, folks. Feel free to leave your reactions to the gag order story in the thread below, or suggest ideas for next week's topic if you're in the mood. See you back here next week, 8:30-10 pm eastern. #editorchat
Whoa. That's something! The fact that the Guardian can't even reveal why it is under gag order makes it harder to have an opinion on this. I can think of reasons why the US government could put a pub under gag order -- could mean the safety of the country, for one.
- Meryl K. Evans
Can a gag order really supress news in the age of social media? Read the Guardian UK story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media...
Whether you love or loathe Harvey Levin and TMZ, the L.A. Sherriff's department doesn't have the right to subpoena phone records to hunt down confidential sources, right? More: http://www.latimes.com/news... #editorchat
Some of last night's questions answered in this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009... Free speech experts say social media publishers -- i.e., all of us -- face the same issues journalists do when it comes to libel. Thanks to @tomfeyer for the find. #editorchat
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