Sign in or Join FriendFeed
FriendFeed is the easiest way to share online. Learn more »


Please visit for transcripts, topics, and other goodies. This room is where we chat weekly. We also post relevant news stories here.
Tim Beyers
A crowdsourced newswire that isn't Twitter. Love the spirit behind the idea, but can it work? #editorchat #journalism
Tim Beyers
Publishers take in between $4.56 and $5.54 per #ebook sale: (via @nytimes and @mediabistro) #editorchat
Tim Beyers
Only one-third of magazine Web sites turn a profit, reports a CJR survey: (via @nytimes and @mediabistro) #editorchat
Tim Beyers
The BBC tells its reporters to embrace social media: Did anyone tell @bbc to follow its own advice? Hellllooooooo, empty Twitter feed #editorchat
Tim Beyers
Just a reminder that we're no longer hosting #editorchat live. Please continue checking in on the #editorchat hashtag on Twitter and this room for semi-regular comment about developments in the #journalism and #publishing industries. We'll also be posting commentary and interviews at the blog:
Tim Beyers
Does Demand Media disrespect content? Read Tony Silber's rant and let us know: #editorchat
Tim Beyers
Tim Beyers
Can @nytimes succeed with a paywall? Two interviews published through Wharton examine what's possible: #editorchat
Lydia Dishman
If "cheap, down-and-dirty ‘journalism’ is the intellectual equivalent of empty calories" we want to know: doesn’t all media fulfill an emotional need? How do you determine the best way to fill readers’ desire to connect as well as the need for intellectual stimulation? How much is engaging content worth? #editorchat
well, I think first that you must be able to separate the two. Not all readers want to connect – they want knowledge (intellectual stimulation). and vice versa. And where the heck did that quote come from? :) - Jordana Megonigal
the post that inspired the topic from Alan Mutter's Newsosaur blog - Lydia Dishman
ahh...yes... - Jordana Megonigal
what do you think of that jordana? you like that one - Greg T. Spielberg
Part of me thinks the pay issue, and the flight of quality from daily journalism, has always been this way. Hemingway, etc....I'd say *breaking* news is the "cheap, down and dirty journalism," and the deeper quality stuff will flee to the few places that can pay well; and those places might have pay walls or high subscription fees. Where will people get the civic or investigative reporting that everyone *should* pay attention to? Dunno. Maybe foundations. - Andria Krewson
well, while I agree with the basis of Alan's post in general, I think this one piece is a little off base.. - Jordana Megonigal
Just because I may write something for free doesn't mean that it's any less quality than if I was making $5/word. So to call it "empty calories" I think is a little unjust. - Jordana Megonigal
And off topic, Greg: A friend of my daughter's loved Bowdoin. Daniel Clark, ended up at that school that starts with an "H" instead. But his older brother played hockey, I think, for Bowdoin. - Andria Krewson
But to the industry as a whole, yes, I completely agree with what he's saying. - Jordana Megonigal
haverford? - Greg T. Spielberg
good place but very small (bowdoin) ... i'm under the impression that journalists were never paid very well but that low-quality is being monetized in ways that were never possible. - Greg T. Spielberg
What's awesome to me about the Internet now is that when a writer just *has* to write something because of an emotional need, they can find a place to publish it. And sometimes, that emotionalism connects with readers, if it's written well. Suspect that's the basis for lots of the networking among mombloggers. - Andria Krewson
Absolutely, Andria. I myself have a personal blog, and a professional one, as well as numerous Social Media accounts for *both* of my personalities. :) - Jordana Megonigal
Greg: Hahaha. Haverford. Yeah, right. Daughter actually flew up last spring break to Cambridge and crashed on his dorm floor. I'm probably a very bad mom for letting that happen. But she actually saw students with their noses in books *all the time.* - Andria Krewson
for the record, I invited eZine articles representatives to participate - never heard back from them - Lydia Dishman
Jordana, since you come from a publishing point of view, is it the words that have the most value or the institution/org publishing them? Do you need a publishing infrastructure to create value is what I mean. - Greg T. Spielberg
I suppose the emotion can connect with readers even if it's not well-written, Andria, but of course we editors prefer well-written :) - Charles
Absolutely not. But in full disclosure, I was *bred* as a journalist, first and foremost. So while I see MUCH value in the people who were trained in journalism and understand the ethical, legal, and professional ins-and-outs of the industry, I also know that value is determined by the reader, not necessarily the corporation/organization/person that puts out the product. - Jordana Megonigal
For example, Greg, when I write editor's letters and blog posts, I write exactly as I speak – with cues and nuances that are OBSCENE in journalism. It allows me to connect with my readers on a more personal level. BUT, I'm also a magazine, so it allows for more flexibility than the daily or weekly, I think. - Jordana Megonigal
I do know that the organization adds credibility to the writer, as well as distribution capabilities. - Andria Krewson
That's a big question, Greg and Jordana: do we even need publishers? Self-publishing seems to have much promise, but it's not totally taken off. - Charles
Self-publishing? IMHO, it's for the optimistic and out-of-touch-with-reality. :) Says the woman who started a mag during the worst economic time in the past 3 generations. :) - Jordana Megonigal
Jordana, that tactic makes me think of Salinger, who has obviously been in the news a lot lately. He connected so well because of his raw, coloquial language, no? - Greg T. Spielberg
I actually tend to side with you, Jordana. But we need major innovation, something to electrify the industry. - Charles
Absolutely. I think people are tired of the media and the politicians and everything else because they dont feel connected anymore. If you can connect with them on their level in their interests, you'll have them forever. - Jordana Megonigal
What do you mean, Charles? Electrify in what way? - Jordana Megonigal
I think about that topic a lot these days, Charles. If a blogger can connect to readers without an editorial infrastructure, it seems realistic to think that they can do the same with advertisers. - Greg T. Spielberg
I'd love to go further into ethics at some point, since Jordana brought it up. But back to self publishing: the science bloggers produce a book with a curated collection of blog posts, using Raleigh based Lulu. Unclear whether the book makes money. To the point Charles made about innovation, I think online aggregation with real people behind it can help with the distribution problem, if one doesn't have a big institutional name behind them. - Andria Krewson
To Greg's point on advertisers: Definite movement there in big business trying to find ways to help hyperlocal bloggers handle/get/manage ads better. Big hole in the market that traditional media hasn't done well in a long time. - Andria Krewson
That's great for bloggers...but obsolete in print. Self-publishing won't work in print, I dont think... - Jordana Megonigal
Yes, and Wordpress apps are making progress for automated ads at a rapid pace. (Andria) - Greg T. Spielberg
Electrify in the way that synthesizes books, blogging, magazines, maybe even newspapers into a solid high margin business model that people rave about. Yeah easier said than done. - Charles
What about self publishing for niche, targeted white papers? Large consultancies sell those for $250 a pop or so, when sometimes folks *not* at the consultancies could do as good of a job or better. But without the institutional name, I don't think they can get the bucks... - Andria Krewson
I can't speak much for online, because that's not my gig, but I think print will see a MAJOR overhaul in the next 5-10 years in how they are run. They have to, but it's not as hard as everyone wants to think...meaning, it won't take all these innovative measures. The skeleton is already in place in Europe. - Jordana Megonigal
What should we check out in Europe? Who seems to be doing it right? - Greg T. Spielberg
Europe? - Charles
European and Asian mags are run off of subscription revenue, not advertising. I think once the U.S. picks up on that model you'll see an entire shift (and progress) within the print world - Jordana Megonigal
Hm. I can see that; print as purely paid just like every other physical good. That makes a lot of sense. Do they run yearly subscriptions or pay-per-issue? - Greg T. Spielberg
If a mag is financially supported by the same people who emotionally support it, you have a structure that rarely fails. If it is then financially successful, the writers (and all other staff) will soon reap the rewards as well. - Jordana Megonigal
Folks, I'd usually have posted the killjoy warning by now, but if you want to keep going please do. I have to deal with the kiddos and finish a story before midnight. Thanks Greg, and feel free to keep chatting. - Lydia Dishman
Greg, from what I've seen, it can be either, but you'll have a high rate on a yearly subscription. - Jordana Megonigal
'Nite, Lydia! Good to see you. I'll have to bolt in a minute too. New baby is yelling at me. :) - Jordana Megonigal
I'm taking off now. Sorry I didn't comment much, but I was keeping up with all the comments. Thanks, Lydia & Greg for a great chat! - Becky
Jordana, can you tap me on Twitter? Couldn't find your name. I should have everyone else. Is that right? - Greg T. Spielberg
And the European papers and mags are kicking a** when it comes to design. Same for Latin America. Let's hope, Jordana, for the U.S. And goodnight, Lydia. Thank you! - Andria Krewson
I'm at @JMegonigal and my mag site is - Jordana Megonigal
This was a great time. Hope to join again next week. Thanks! - Greg T. Spielberg
Thanks, y'all. I'm @underoak on Twitter. Also @akrewson, but that's inactive for now... - Andria Krewson
'Night all! Fun times! - Jordana Megonigal
Whew, that was exciting. Thanks Lydia. Charles Bohannan @wordful - Charles
And Lydia: Thanks for the @rww link.... - Andria Krewson
Lydia Dishman
We're talking fair pay on #editorchat, especially in light of Alan Mutter's (Newsosaur) urgent message to writers not to sell themselves short and accept low pay for their work.
So the first question courtesy of our special guest Greg, Writers: When have you felt exposure to be fairly compensated for your work? - Lydia Dishman
You mean "writing for the exposure" is worth it as "pay"? - Becky
hi! sorry about that - Greg T. Spielberg
I must run off (shocking, I know), but I think when I was a book review blogger, that was great. Oh, as an intern, also fine. Otherwise, not so great. Thanks for the topic, Lydia, and I'll be looking at it later! - Suzi Steffen
Yes, so Andria, when would exposure for Under Oak or Crossroads be worth standing in for pay? - Greg T. Spielberg
If ever - Greg T. Spielberg
For me...When breaking into a new market after being pigeon holed. My first piece for a pregnancy mag was free. But after that I felt more confident pitching other preg/parenting mags b/c I could say I'd been published there before. But in general, I would never "donate" my services :) - Lisa Maxbauer
One thing Michelle Goodman addresses in her book Anti 9-5 Guide is to avoid being compensated in P.I.E (paid in exposure) - Lydia Dishman
Greg, Underoak's a labor of love and a civic contribution to my neighborhood. Crossroads Charlotte pays, a little bit. $50 for a post less than 400 words, $25 more for a snapshot/photo. I write too for PBS Mediashift, definitely for exposure, and it has paid off well in contacts and exposure and a resume line. What's ironic is that one of the editors retweeted Mutter's piece the other day; they're not the only site online these days getting content from folks wanting exposure online. - Andria Krewson
IMO, "exposure" is never acceptable as pay. There are a couple freebies I do as a sort of charitable contribution to an organization, but other than that, nope. This is actually a topic we talked about in the class I'm teaching last night. - Jen Nipps
How bout you, Charles? Is pay higher in Hawaii than in the highly-competitive lower 48 states? - Greg T. Spielberg
It depends on the medium, too. Many bloggers do guest post for exposure (which works very well), but the blogs they're writing for don't have pay-for-content revenue model. I guess we're talking about journalism, here, a little different - Charles
I still have people asking me to do stuff for free, both editing and writing. I've gotten very good at saying no ;-) - Lydia Dishman
Pay seems always lower here, but that's also because everything is so expensive. But sadly yes, pay is lower. - Charles
Lydia, You're an inspiration. I guess my question is how do you "convert," in advertising terms? When do you tell someone, "Sorry, it ain't free anymore." - Andria Krewson
Ah, now, see, I hadn't thought of blogs as writing for exposure. I guess in part because the blogs I guest for are maintained by friends who are also writers. - Jen Nipps
Jen, that's interesting. So you are contributing out of a sense of community & friendship. - Greg T. Spielberg
Thanks Andria :) It's easy, when I reach the end of the month and have that hefty mortgage bill staring at me, it is time to demand a check for time spent haggling over words. - Lydia Dishman
In a sense, I guess so. It's kind of like you-scratch-my-back-and-I'll-scratch-yours. A favor for a favor, whether it be help, contact info that I can't find, or some such. It works both ways. - Jen Nipps
Yes, Lydia, mortgage bills have a tendency to stare like that. - Charles
I'll stay mostly quiet, but will mention that even with her *crazy* demands to get paid, Lydia is one of the most respected writers in the area...speaking personally... - Jordana Megonigal
I see nothing wrong with writing for exposure as long as there's strategic value in it for the writer. - Charles
Greg made an interesting observation in an earlier email exchange. Greg, tell them about the changing threshold of designers' fees. - Lydia Dishman
Strategy is everything. I think low-paying assignments should be a stepping stone to better assignments. - Lisa Maxbauer
Awww shucks, Ms. J, I didn't know you were on :) Ladies and gents, one of my fine editors, Jordana - Lydia Dishman
It's interesting because Web designers are garnering more pay each year. Higher per project and per hour, while freelance writers don't seem to be. Are they communicating their value in a more effective way than we are? - Greg T. Spielberg
It should be that way Lisa, have you found a way to successfully leverage the low-paying ones? - Lydia Dishman
I work with many designers and they get more money because they make no bones about how much they deserve. I wonder why we as writers (and editors) feel like we must be so modest... - Jordana Megonigal
Greg: And meanwhile, print designers are seeing their jobs (and their pay rate) go through the floor. As are others as print papers. So that was a factor for me in judging places like Demand Studios: When compared to what legacy print companies have become, Demand Studios doesn't look that bad. - Andria Krewson
Greg, that's surprising about designers. I wasn't aware they're were pulling in more money. - Charles
For web designers: They're also vocal and profess a little solidarity. They yell loudly at spec pieces or design "contests" when one is expected to put in the work with only a chance for a payoff. - Andria Krewson
Maybe I need to become a web designer. (Just jokes! Been there, done that. I don't have the patience for the tedious bits of it.) - Jen Nipps
When an editor gets a great piece, they'll come back with more work and better pay. I'm lucky now that I have all the work I need and don't have to spend as much time pitching ideas. - Lisa Maxbauer
I think there is also an expertise factor with designers. Most people think anyone can write, but are less likely to think that about layout. And code is a foreign language. - Lydia Dishman
I need to take php class. And more Photoshop... - Andria Krewson
Lisa, I would *love* to get to that point. I'm still pitching. - Jen Nipps
Very good point, Lydia - Jordana Megonigal
Well we can't argue that the internet and all its free content (both good and garbage) has sent the perceived value of good writing down. It's a little different than design -- bad design rarely gets attention but bad content can. - Charles
Charles, if you go to, basic designers in NYC average out at around $55,000 while reporters go for $37k or so - Greg T. Spielberg
Video appears to be doing well also: There's a barrier of having decent equipment, but that gets lower every day. - Andria Krewson
IMHO, the skill level is the same, writing and designing is equally complex. - Lydia Dishman
True, Lydia. But I'm accustomed to the one but not the other. :) - Jen Nipps
Jordana, that's interesting. So you're saying that designers have a better business sense than journalists. They're better bargainers (or salespeople)? - Greg T. Spielberg
Hear, hear, Lydia (from a design team leader for many years). What's interesting is that it seems there's always demand for content, of any quality, while the higher paying design gigs are tougher to find. - Andria Krewson
Yes, Lydia, but words drive the web. There are so many words on the web and I can see why pay for good writers have plummeted. - Charles
I think they've been cultivated to (at least) think that they are worth more. Meanwhile, I was told in J-school that I'd probably have to write for free for a few years (or few clips) to get bylines, and THEN i'd get paying jobs. It's hard to make that transition mentally, but we expect the general public to expect more out of us? - Jordana Megonigal
And writers now have to include photos in many of their online features. - Lydia Dishman
Andria, did you use pictures for your Demand stories? - Greg T. Spielberg
And if we don't have our own stock photos, we have to pay to use a service. - Jen Nipps
Question: Are writers expected to exploit their social networks and be available to respond to all comments as part of their exisiting fee these days? Or are folks saying that work requires additional pay? - Andria Krewson
As part of the freelance fee? - Greg T. Spielberg
I keep track of my own comments, no extra pay. - Lydia Dishman
when I started out in NYC, the pay for mag writers was seemed people were willing to work for practically nothing just to be associated with these glamorous brands. It affects pay throughout - Lisa Maxbauer
All the social media marketing, self-branding, conversation stuff seems to be own our own. But that's not a bad thing. - Charles
I don't think it's any different than getting fan mail/reader questions. Would you expect to be paid extra for that? - Jen Nipps
Greg, Demand's CMS actually integrates with a search engine that allows (or requires) you to find photos with your posts. Sometimes it works, I haven't done enough lately to identify which kind of posts actually require it. It integrates with Flickr, it appears, and a Creative Commons search. So if you put Flickr photos up and do NOT mark them all rights reserved, Lord knows where they'll turn up. - Andria Krewson
I agree, Charles. - Jen Nipps
Scary - Lisa Maxbauer
Right, Greg, as part of the fee. And I agree, it should be like fan mail/reader questions, Jen, but then not everyone's networks are equal. So does that mean the hiring folks will hire people with bigger networks (and thus be buying the networks?) Interesting thought... - Andria Krewson
I've never considered attaching comment moderation to the freelance responsibility. You totally blew up my old-model image, Andria - Greg T. Spielberg
Just based on anecdotal experience, none of my editors seem to care that I have a social media presence. - Lydia Dishman
Andria, while I'd like to say that the network size wouldn't matter, but -- realistically -- a bigger network means more potential readers, so it really might be a factor in the overall decision. - Jen Nipps
Lydia, I think they probably prefer it. :) - Jordana Megonigal
Lydia, do you not use your Twitter/FB/FF/Blog following as bargaining cache? - Greg T. Spielberg
Jordana, do you think many readers of the print Biz Black Box know that I'm such a twitter-holic ;-) - Lydia Dishman
If you've got it, use it! - Lisa Maxbauer
What I fear is that promotional idea turns those networks into a bunch of spam, and we end up "selling" our real friends. It's a careful, careful balance. Luckily, Charlotte's Twitter community has had lots of discussion from PR/marketing people along that line. - Andria Krewson
Greg: No, no one ever asked. I supply the link when I pitch, but I'm never sure if they see how many followers I have, or when I posted last. - Lydia Dishman
That's what I'm thinking, Lisa. I might redo my bio paragraph in queries to include networks. lol - Jen Nipps
Lydia, I don't think they have a clue to the extent of your Twit-tastic presence. - Jordana Megonigal
See, that's what I mean! - Lydia Dishman
It cant hurt Jen - Lisa Maxbauer
We like for our writers to have a social media presence, and for that matter, be building their own personal brand. It serves us better to be able to say that "so-and-so writes for us" than to have to provide the platform for them to grow... - Jordana Megonigal
True. And it could help, which is a good thing. :) - Jen Nipps
So going forward, I will be sure to point that out when I pitch to new editors. - Lydia Dishman
Jordana, I love that approach. I've known some places where "personal brand" becomes an institutional threat. - Andria Krewson
I would love to come across a publication that pays freelance writers for community moderation - Greg T. Spielberg
In this economy I get the sense that editors are happy when you're willing to help promote an article - Lisa Maxbauer
I guess it could be seen as such, Andria, but for me, that just seems tedious and counter-productive - Jordana Megonigal
That's true Lisa, and some really encourage it. - Lydia Dishman
Absolutely, Lisa. - Jordana Megonigal
Andria, where have you seen that happen? - Greg T. Spielberg
I will say MediaShift is awesome in helping with "personal branding." They tweet stories from their contributors like crazy, and provide those contributors with leads to PR or industry people to help deepen their "beats." - Andria Krewson
I'm very curious about how the Economist's community efforts will work since their writers "don't" have a name. - Greg T. Spielberg
Greg, I think I can't comment further. - Andria Krewson
(btw, andria, I wrote two stories for demand last week and didn't ad pictures ... ) - Greg T. Spielberg
okay folks let's move to the next question - Lydia Dishman
An interesting case study in social media from a book author comes from Joe Menn, or Joseph Menn, (an old newspaper buddy) who just finished a book on cybercrime. He's using Facebook and Twitter much more than he ever did as part of his "book tour." And Rebecca Skloot, book author, is working it quite well, building the network before the book launched. - Andria Krewson
Not bad to get a Susan Orlean quote on the cover either! - Greg T. Spielberg
Sorry, all. I'm going to take this break between Q's to bow out. It's been a long day and puppy duty is calling loudly. - Jen Nipps
To me, I think it becomes a question of infrastructure-building. Menn and Skloot are building their own publishing businesses as well as owning the product - Greg T. Spielberg
Good point. - Andria Krewson
Exactly. (I also have to step away......thanks). - Lisa Maxbauer
If we take Jen's idea of contributing to a blog or site because of friendship and combine it with a hard-business publishing model, I think we'd start to see serious results. Imagine Skloot or Men paired with five or six other authors who ride each others' waves. Same thing, I think, goes for journalists. - Greg T. Spielberg
New question up above - Lydia Dishman
Lydia Dishman
Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of #editorchat. Please say hello to special guest Greg Spielberg joining to discuss pay models.
And remember to introduce yourselves as you join in :) I'm your co-host Lydia Dishman, freelance features writer for BNET, Entrepreneur, Fast Company and others. - Lydia Dishman
Becky, Jen and Suzi; good to be here. And Lydia, thanks for bringing us together - Greg T. Spielberg
Hi Greg! I'm an arts editor at the Eugene Weekly, and I teach a beginning reporting class each quarter at the U of Oregon as well. In my free time, I have freelanced before and hope to again someday! - Suzi Steffen
Hi, all! Jen Nipps (@JenNipps on Twitter) here. I'm a freelance writer in south Oklahoma specializing in creativity, writing, health, and plus-size issues. I apologize in advance for glaring typos. It's been a long day. - Jen Nipps
Thanks for being here with us, Greg. - Jen Nipps
A friend of mine works for the St. Helens Chronicle; just starting out after freelancing for a bit! - Greg T. Spielberg
Charles Bohannan out here in Hawaii, @wordful on Twitter, part-time editor, blogger and publishing entrepreneur. Thanks for coming, Greg, and to our hosts Lydia and Tim - Charles
Hello all. Lisa Maxbauer here. Women's mag writer. @FIRSTmagLISA - Lisa Maxbauer
Tim won't be joining us this evening, just so you all know. - Lydia Dishman
Howdy, howdy! I'm a freelance journalist in Iowa, missing Florida winters something fierce. You can find me at my blog, Deep Muck Big Rake, or @BeckyDMBR on the twitters. - Becky
Hi Charles and Lisa - thanks for coming! - Lydia Dishman
Greg, you're so making me Google map St. Helens, Oregon. Who knew? - Suzi Steffen
Ooh, and as a quick aside, since I forgot to mention this in my intro...I should have the galley for my upcoming book, DEVOTED TO CREATING, "in a couple days" (per the editor's e-mail). - Jen Nipps
Hi all, Andria Krewson from Charlotte, freelancer and consultant and recovering print designer. @underoak on Twitter. - Andria Krewson
Haha, Oregon's been on fire lately. First Facebook decides to build a data center in Prineville. Now this ;) - Greg T. Spielberg
Hi Andria - don't know if you noticed but I linked to your RWW piece on the editorchat blog. - Lydia Dishman
Jen, how cool! Greg, HAHAHAH, um, "on fire" in the pouring rain. Andria, fascinating post! Thanks for linking, Lydia! - Suzi Steffen
So while we wait for latecomers to join, I'll do da rulz: Rule No. 1 Observers welcome but #editorchat is for those who are, or those who work with, editors. - Lydia Dishman
Rule No. 2 Stay on topic - Lydia Dishman
Rule No. 3. Courteous comments, please. (Thank you, sir. Ma’am.) - Lydia Dishman
And everyone’s favorite rule — Rule No. 4. Spammers will be electrocuted. (Your computer *is* wired, pal.) - Lydia Dishman
Bzzzt! - Becky
hee hee - Lydia Dishman
MOST IMPORTANT: Rule No. 5 No crickets. We're here to chat; come join us. - Lydia Dishman
Okay, please follow me up to the box above for the first question. - Lydia Dishman
Thanks, Suzi. :) I sent my cover copy, bio, and pic in earlier this week, so I'm thinking I'll be getting the (e-)galley pretty soon from the way it sounded. - Jen Nipps
sorry, i can't see the conversation yet - Greg T. Spielberg
one box down - Lydia Dishman
Lydia Dishman
We're starting in just a few minutes folks, please join in to talk fair pay on #editorchat with special guest @gregtspielberg
stepping into the #editorchat lions den - Greg T. Spielberg
Rawr! - Becky
Can't say as I've thought of us as a lion's den. :) - Jen Nipps
Hi Jen and Becky, thanks for coming I'll post the official greeting in a couple of minutes - Lydia Dishman
Hey y'all, Suzi from (rainy) Eugene here for a few minutes. Dinner with a freelance tech writer in half an hour; bet he'll have something to say about this, too! - Suzi Steffen
What is Fair Pay for Writers (and how to make sure you get what your worth) -
The Media Equation - To Deliver, iPad Needs Content Providers on Board ... -
David Carr expresses enthusiasm for the iPad, but we're still waiting for the business model breakthrough that will make the device the winner we want it to be.
The Media Equation - To Deliver, iPad Needs Content Providers on Board ... -
David Carr expresses enthusiasm for the iPad, but we're still waiting for the business model breakthrough that will make the device the winner we want it to be.
The Public Editor - Secondhand Sources - Op-Ed - -
Calrk Hoyt raises interesting questions about sourcing. Do the standards change for format and subject? Should they?
The Public Editor - Secondhand Sources - Op-Ed - -
Calrk Hoyt raises interesting questions about sourcing. Do the standards change for format and subject? Should they?
Lydia Dishman
Many thanks to Debbie Stier of HarperStudio for joining us tonight, and thanks to all who participated in such a valuable chat about the future of our business. I'm Lydia Dishman, your co-host, see you all next week!
Thanks so much for another great chat, Lydia & Tim. I'm Becky. Freelance journalist in Iowa. You can find me at Deep Muck Big Rake or @BeckyDMBR. See you next week! - Becky
It's been a great chat, everyone. Thanks, Debbie, for joining us! Jen Nipps (@JenNipps on Twitter) here. - Jen Nipps
If we're doing re-intros: I'm Charles Bohannan (@wordful) in Hawaii; part-time associate editor to pay the bills but really working on Wordful, my indie startup. Loving #editorchat all the way - Charles
Tim Beyers, your other co-host. Thanks, Debbie. Find me at and daily at The Motley Fool. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Lydia Dishman
We have a good opportunity to open the floor for Debbie to take questions about her experience at HarperStudio. Please feel free to say what's on your mind.
Is it true what I read... that most non-fiction writers have to have a platform to get their book published? - LisaGemini
No crickets, people. What questions do you have for Debbie? #editorchat - Tim Beyers
To go with Lisa's question, how do you evaluate an effective platform? How extensive does it need to be? - Jen Nipps
Lisa: YES - debbiestier
The more extensive the better. I gave a talk today and I said that I don't know how to publish an author anymore that won't engage in some way online - debbiestier
It's like trying to catch a falling knife. I'd rather bet on winning the lottery. That said -- it's SO POSSIBLE now for all authors (or would be authors) - debbiestier
So the social media is like currency? If an author has an online following they are more likely to be signed? - Lydia Dishman
to build their own platform because the gatekeepers are not holding all the cards anymore. The cost of entry is near zero. - debbiestier
So what's a platform include? is it just personal branding? Wondering who's platform you really admire. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
One thing I learned on Twitter is that the quality of your followers matters more than quantity. - LisaGemini
Yeah, what are the platform standards? - Charles
Lydia -- absolutely. The question publishers always asked, that they used to judge value of an author was "what's your platform." But now the authors (potential authors) aren't dependent on having been on the today show. They can build their own audience. The playing field has been completely leveled and now the one's with the good content and passion can win. - debbiestier
Lisa: Totally agree - debbiestier
I just signed up Melanie Notkin @savvyauntie and Baratunde Thurston @baratundethurston - debbiestier
Debbie, what do you think about microblasting some of your book on Twitter or Facebook? - LisaGemini
Debbie: I've been following Melanie since she started. She knows social media. She's EVERYWHERE. - Becky
and Ryan Tate from Gawker @ryantate I admire all of their platforms. They ALL engage online with their communities. They're not sitting there waiting for the publisher to make them famous (or, for the Today show to call back the publisher). They're taking charge and taking matters into their own hands. - debbiestier
Lisa: Not into microblasting anyting. - debbiestier
Well, there's two new follows for me. This thread makes me wonder if the traditional book tour is dead. Now, you want a Twitter tour. Yes? No? #editorchat - Tim Beyers
I'm into making a connection - debbiestier
I'd like to ask something else: HarperStudio is pioneering the 50-50 model for authors. Debbie is that working better than royalties? - Lydia Dishman
Tim: Traditional book tour is not dead. But it's been altered and now there's MORE possiblity to make it successful because you can reach out to your community before you get there. - debbiestier
Lydia: YES YES YES! - debbiestier
I've missed something, I think. What's the 50-50 model? - Jen Nipps
Lydia: creates a partnership with the authors instead of them pushing us to do this and that without any financial accountability. - debbiestier
HarperStudio offers $100,000 or less as an advance, BUT, we offer a 50/50 profit share as opposed to a traditional 15% royalty for a hardcover and 7% on a paperback. - debbiestier
That sounds much, much better for authors! - LisaGemini
all revenues and costs go into a big pot and we split the profit at the end. So all decisions (i.e. should we do an ad, should we send you on a tour, should we buy this or that store placement) are JOINT decisions because it's half the atuhor's money (though we put up the costs). - debbiestier
It certainly does! - Jen Nipps
Lisa: I know! It's CRAZY that more people aren't doing it. There are others who do, certainly.....but not a ton. - debbiestier
I've got a follow-up, Debbie. What do agents think of the model? Do they like it as well? I'm not familiar with how well or poorly the old model was working for them. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
It certainly gives authors more control over marketing and selling. - LisaGemini
Jen and Lisa: Ask an agent who wants to get the most money they can UP FRONT with no risk if they think it sounds better. Most will say no. - debbiestier
Lisa: yes - debbiestier
Tim: About 90% (or more) of books LOSE money for the publisher in old model - debbiestier
That being said, Debbie, how often does HarperStudio rely on agents to bring in new authors? - LisaGemini
Most agents I know would prefer to get more money up front and not take on the risk of having to profit share. They'd rather take the money and let it be the publisher's problem if it doesn't work out. - debbiestier
Lisa: rarely. Most of our books were initiated on our end. Many went to agents and/or lawyers after we agreed on terms. - debbiestier
just to have the contract done. - debbiestier
That's a lot different from the traditional model, right? - LisaGemini
The other thing is that the publishers sell books returnably to accounts, and about 40% on average are returned to the publisher at the publisher's expense. CRAZY - debbiestier
So then how does HarperStudio handle returns? Do the author & HS split the cost for that? - Jen Nipps
No wonder publishers are drowning. - LisaGemini
Debbie: So agents don't factor in much, and you go seek authors rather than vice versa. Do you see that changing? Are more authors pitching you? #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Lisa: yes. It changes everything from the whole ebook pricing question (because in our equation, it all goes into the same shared pot as opposed to "what royalty will the author get for an ebook") and the dynamic is much more collaborative - debbiestier
Tim: We are pitching authors more. There are still some agents that we are in touch with, but we're not "pitched" and we aren't in the auctions. - debbiestier
I shouldn't say never, but not often. - debbiestier
Do you meet authors online or face to face? - LisaGemini
Debbie: Interesting. So I shouldn't pitch you book my idea? (Grins.) #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Jen: We tried to sell non-returnably. I can't really go into details because the accounts have told us they do not want us to speak about it. We were moderately successful.....but the reason we weren't is so big I can't explain it here and has to do with the meat and potatoes of how this industry works. - debbiestier
I'm learning a lot here...folks...just listening :) - Charles
Also, what's your prospecting process? Do you decide on topic or theme and then see who's writing or tweeting about it? #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Lisa: both. I often meet people online and try to meet them in the real world too. - debbiestier
Are you based in New York, Debbie? - LisaGemini
Tim: Sometimes it's that (Bob and I dreamt up the Skunkworks book and found @ryantate from gawker to write it) -- and sometimes we find the person (i.e. Baratunde Thurston and figure out what his book could be). - debbiestier
Lisa: yes -- but I try to get out and about too! - debbiestier
What categories are you interested in? - LisaGemini
you can check out what we've acquired at : Mostly non-fiction (2 fiction) - debbiestier
I've been looking at the site off & on through this chat. Haven't been able to do a lot yet, though. - Jen Nipps
Debbie: Do you like this model for the long term? To borrow a sports metaphor, it seems like you're acting as talent scouts who have known holes to fill. So, you fly to Cuba and look the second baseman with the vacuum-cleaner glove. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Crap, I meant "look for." Sorry about that. - Tim Beyers from IM
ha! Tim, I prefer to think that we have to be more creative than the rest of them!!! I think the tide is turning though. - debbiestier
The whole profit share model is definitely part that works and I do see it long term and I bet more publishers are going to go that way. No question. Especially with Amazon now publishing and changing the traditional model too. 15% royalty might not look so good in a year. - debbiestier
IMO, anyone who thinks more creatively is at least half a step, often more, ahead of the rest of the game. :) - Jen Nipps
Thanks Jen! - debbiestier
We're about 15 minutes from reintros, folks. What other questions do you have for Debbie? Or should we talk more technology? #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Creativity and tech/design savvy - Charles
Agreed, Charles. :) - Jen Nipps
Charles: that's it! - debbiestier
Jen; Agreed. I'm a huge fan of the model, Debbie. I think it changes the game for writers as much as it does for HarperStudio as a publisher. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Debbie do you see any start-up publishing companies going purely online with any potential? - Charles
Tim: thanks. Agreed. - debbiestier
Charles: Sure. I think there will be lots of different start up models in the very near future. Some just online (there already are some, but there will be more) and other stuff too. I think it's the heyday for the indie entrepreneur. - debbiestier
Good to hear it. Do you know any specific ones? - Charles
I'm blanking on names right now -- but there's a big-ish one in CA. And Amazon was doing that b/f they started "publsihing" in print editions too (a week ago?) - debbiestier
Well I have to be honest I'm very drawn to this evolving model myself - Charles
cool - debbiestier
me too :) - debbiestier
It's very intriguing! :) - Jen Nipps
how refreshing! thanks for being here, Debbie - Charles
"I think it's the heyday for the indie entrepreneur." Interesting that we heard something similar from John Byrne when he guest hosted here. Now he's left BusinessWeek and is a media entrepreneur. Telling? #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
I LOVE JOHN BYRNE! - debbiestier
I think it's *very* telling. - Jen Nipps
I've been a huge fan for years - debbiestier
And I agree that it's very telling that he left Biz week - debbiestier
More cool people are going to leave the old institutions to do cool new stuff - debbiestier
me? (jk) - debbiestier
That's a big reason I'm here at editorchat. Iit's kind of like meeting at a street corner with some comrades to plan a revolution. - Charles
Love that! - debbiestier
Hahahahahaha. No! Don't go anywhere! (Grins.) - Tim Beyers from IM
I'm coming back. is it a regular thing? Every week? - debbiestier
Yes, it's fun being an indie! - LisaGemini
We are here every Wednesday night at 8:30 - Lydia Dishman
Yes, Debbie. Every week. Personally, I'd love to see you come back. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. - Jen Nipps
Charles: I absolutely believe there's a rebellion underway. Editorchat was designed to find co-conspirators. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
I'm such an indie girl at heart. it makes no sense that i've been in corporate america for nearly 25 yeras - debbiestier
Jen: thanks. Charles: agree agree agree - debbiestier
That's why Skunkworks was near and dear to my heart - debbiestier
I am excited about the changes in the publishing world. I think it levels the playing field considerably. Glad you stopped by, Debbie. I hope you return. - LisaGemini
I dream up books to address my "issues." - debbiestier
Thanks Lisa. - debbiestier
You've been waiting for your chance to initiate a revolution. lol - Jen Nipps
NICE MEETING YOU ALL. - debbiestier
I will be back. Putting it in my calendar now - debbiestier
Aloha and Mahalo, Debbie - Charles
Don't you have to be an indie spirit to want to be a part of the writing world? It's a must. I'm hooked on the indie life. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Jen: absolutely. - debbiestier
I agree, Tim. Plus we are always looking for the next gig. - LisaGemini
Aloha and Mahalo Charles - debbiestier
Tim: To a degree, definitely. But in this day and age corporate America (even the media co's) can be pretty "corporate." Luckily I'm in the Indie wing of a big corp. - debbiestier
Okay folks we'll wrap it here - thanks for joining us Debbie :) - Lydia Dishman
Debbie: You were terrific. Thanks *so* much for joining us -- we're thrilled that you want to come back. Please do, anytime. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Thank you for coming. - debbiestier
Putting on my calendar now for future wed's. - debbiestier
Thanks for the inside tips, Debbie! - LisaGemini
Thank you, Debbie! - Becky
Lydia Dishman
No matter that the name is bad, the iPad is a game changer. How much will it and other technologies change the way editors and writers work together?
Nevermind on the rules we all know 'em anyway, right? - Tim Beyers
Actually, let's just do one. Rule No. 4. Spammers will be electrocuted. (Your computer *is* wired, pal.) #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Bzzzzt! - Lydia Dishman
It's a game changer! - debbiestier
the question is, can the editors who are editors today change it. Some will. Some can. But it may be other people who come in - debbiestier
I hesitate to say it's revolutionary because I've seen it so often today, but it certainly appears to be. Especially considering the video we saw of it as the iSlate. - Jen Nipps
I'll be curious to see if it changes magazines and newspapers, saving them from some bankruptcies. - LisaGemini
Makes me wonder if editors are going to need to be coders. We talked about writers learning more technology. With platforms like this, I think eds. are in the same boat. - Tim Beyers
I know authors who are starting to think differently. In general, authors seem more open to the possibilities than I see the majority of publishers -- but there are def some people are are going to do things we haven't even dreamed of yet. I think it's a whole different medium - debbiestier
I always say, a little html is not a bad thing to know. In fact, - debbiestier
it's one of the q's I ask during an interview - debbiestier
I am very intrigued, actually. - Jen Nipps
I do believe it will require editors to make a crossroads decision -- either embrace technology and survive/thrive or don't a fizzle out - Charles
I agree, Debbie, every writer and editor should know some HTML. - LisaGemini
Lisa: I think that creative people can definitely think of new ways to use the medium that can absolutely *save* the industry. Or maybe grow it into a new industry. - debbiestier
What would *you* do with the iPad, Debbie? How would you push the medium? #editorchat - Tim Beyers
I don't think we need to know HTML, really. We just need someone nearby who does. - Charles
I'm of the independent mindset, Charles. The more of a generalist you can be, the better your chances of survival in the brave new world. - LisaGemini
I disagree. lol. But then, that could be in part because I taught myself some basic HTML. - Jen Nipps
I think Jobs wants to see the industry grow. That was the whole point of iTunes, to try something entirely new -- $0.99 buy-by-the-track in that case. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Charles: right :) I have "Kathryn the Great" (aka @kratlee) But I did take an html class! - debbiestier
In fact, now more than ever editors should drill down more into their craft and remain aware that technology is just a colleague away - Charles
I know HTML, but it doesn't make me a better editor - Charles
Charles: Do you know how many editors realize this? - debbiestier
Not sure what you're asking, Deb - Charles
I'm not so sure I agree. Doesn't good design improve readability? I know design isn't necessarily part of the editor's job, but it helps know what looks awful to the reader, yes? #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
For editors of smaller publications, design is part of the job. - LisaGemini
I'm late, I'm late! Sorry. What's up? I hear Apple's got some new doohickey out? - Becky
I never got to finish the thought. Sorry. Had to go kill bug in daughter's room. There were shreeks coming. Very very few people, in my experience, in the publishing industry realize the possiblities. Some.....but not most. - debbiestier
Hi, Becky. Yes, it's the iPad. Try not to laugh. - LisaGemini
Beck-ay! Say hi to Debbie Stier, associate publisher of HarperStudio - Lydia Dishman
Hey Becky. Yup, the iPad. Can'r wait to hear what you have to say about that name. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Hello, Debbie! - Becky
right. The smaller places can move and groove way more than the bigger places (from what I can see). Hi Becky! - debbiestier
let me correct my stance, here: it's totally imperative that editors know the function and importance of good design, HTML, CSS, SEO, even some marketing, etc., but they should more than ever take the lead producing a high quality publication. - Charles
Well, I've been hearing rumblings all day. I wonder if Twitter is the "test market" for them. - Becky
Tim: Yes good design improves readability! Ask Liza Dawson. But also, there are things that haven't even been done yet that we need to imagine. Vook is a huge step in that direction. - debbiestier
In fact, I spent years "lost" trying to be a designer, programmer, marketer, only to realize I'm an editor and my skills are in demand, now more than ever - Charles
Ah, yes, the video book. - LisaGemini
Agreed, Charles. So let's ask the crowd: What's the one thing you'd do with the iPad? You're an editor and you get to choose. Dream big. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Becky -- what do you mean? They're too much the early adopters? - debbiestier
well maybe not now but soon (hehe) - Charles
It seems to me that since the smaller publications are more ... adaptable, you could say, they will benefit more from the technology of the iPad than larger ones. That might work to their advantage to change the paradigm/power structure in general. - Jen Nipps
With the iPad, I'd start testing "live" publications that have content that's updated, with video, social connectivity, etc. See - Charles
Charles: right. That's what I'm thinking. and Jen: Yup - debbiestier
whoops, not voom, but *sorry*! - Charles
It's an unfortunate pick for the name. - Becky
Even if I don't get to buy one, I'm itching to get my hands on one just to try it out. Alas, not possible in podunk Oklahoma at the moment. - Jen Nipps
Becky: yes, if you mean vook. Sounds horrible, like iPad - Charles
No, I was talking about iPad. But, yes, vook is ... weird. - Becky
i'm ok with vook :) Ipad makes me feel icky every time i see it - debbiestier
you don't want your ipod apple things mixed with visions of maxi pads - debbiestier
Beyond the obvious comparison to tampons, iPad is too easily confused w/ iPod! - LisaGemini
I feel sort of like a disinterested party. I couldn't have an iPhone if I wanted one. I live in the hinterlands where service doesn't exist. But, anyway. - Becky
I'd try content-by-the-slice, a la iTunes music tracks. Buy only the stories you want. For books, I'd even allow buy-by-chapter. How cool would it be to recreate the Dickens experience of buy bit-by-bit, digitally? #editorchat - Tim Beyers
that changes the revenue model for sure - Lydia Dishman
I know publsihers are doing that Tim. In fact, I believe Harvard announced - debbiestier
Becky, that's pretty much how it used to be here until ... maybe a year & a half to 2 years ago re: iPhone service. - Jen Nipps
Didn't Stephen King do that buy by the chapter online? - LisaGemini
Lisa: yup - debbiestier
Actually, though, I think he did it for free, once. - LisaGemini
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think it changes things at all for newspapers. MAYBE it does for magazines (maybe). To me it looked like a glorified iMac. The economics of information isn't changed because the screen is now smaller and can be held in your hand. - David Cohn
Lisa: Yes, I think he did. Debbie: Didn't know that. Did they announce specifically for the iPad, or a buy-by-the-chapter deal? #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Lisa: yes, but I hear it failed and b/c nobody actually read the book - Charles
Really Dave? Because I think the content by the slice model Tim speaks about would apply to newspapers - Lydia Dishman
It's hard to believe peeps wouldn't read a free Stephen King book. - LisaGemini
David: The economics of info don't change because of the device, but I believe the device allows newspapers and publishers to experiment with new delivery models. Pay-per-story, for example. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Yes, Stephen King STARTED the chapter thing. But ended it abruptly and never picked it up again. - Becky
Have any other authors done it? - LisaGemini
@Tim Beyers: What is to stop people from doing pay-per-story right now? - David Cohn
Lisa, I think it might have something to do with the idea of You Get What You Pay For. I know it did for some people I know. Yeah, it's SK, but if it's free, it can't be any good kind of thing. - Jen Nipps
i'm sure they have, but i'm too tired to think of who they are right now. I know Harvard Biz review does this a lot - debbiestier
Stephen King's experiment wasn't free. - Becky
Dave, the portability goes along with the increasing lack of time we have to sit down, turn on a computer, use a mouse, etc. iPad is all about all the digital content you'll need any place any time - Charles
Dave: Nothing, but I think the iPad makes the potential experience more attractive. The back-end is more seamless. The store is in place. The payment mechanisms established. Etc. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Tim -- excellent point - Charles
You know, I don't even have a Kindle or a Nook. I really SHOULD just so I can, you know, NOT be such a Luddite. Right? - Becky
No worries, Becky. I really have no interest in either. LOL - LisaGemini
Only if you want to, IMO. I really like my Kindle, but I'm not one of those that thinks EVERYone needs one. - Jen Nipps
Speaking of names, I'm sorry, but I can't help but think nooky every time I see "Nook." What were they thinking? - Becky
But if I were, I'd endorse the the Kindle. In part of what you just said about the Nook, Becky. lol - Jen Nipps
Maybe it's a marketing gimmick. LOL - LisaGemini
I got a Kindle for Christmas and I love it - Charles
Stephen King had a really weird metric - he refused to continue unless x% of people paid, rather than setting a cash target - Kevin Marks
And Kindle? I sort of think about kindling and burning, which isn't the best thing to think about when thinking about books. But ... oh, well. - Becky
Neil Gaiman, Paolo Coelho and Cory Doctorow have all done smart things mixing free and paid - Kevin Marks
Kinda reminds me of Farenheit 451. - LisaGemini
My Mom makes frequent candle jokes about the Kindle. I can just imagine what she'd say about the iPad! - Jen Nipps
Hey Kevin. Glad you stopped in. Didn't know that about King's metrics. Isn't the possibility of creating better metrics also an iPad advantage? Maybe that's just ePub. Good standards make measurement easier. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Follow up to the next thread for open forum questions. - Lydia Dishman
Kevin: I'm particularly fascinated by what Doctorow is trying. HarperStudio also fascinates me for what they'r doing. Treat the writer well and the readership will follow. I'm rooting hard for Debbie and her team. #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
love what have done by getting their writers blogging about books they love - it's got me buying lots of books. #editorchat - Kevin Marks
Lydia Dishman
Good evening everyone, welcome to our State of the Publishing Union edition of #editorchat with special Guest @debbiestier
I am your co-host Lydia Dishman, freelance features writer for Fast Company, BNET and others - Lydia Dishman
Hi, y'all. I'm Lisa Cunningham, a freelance writer and editor writing a biography and ghostwriting another book about the Holy Spirit. I live in Tampa, FL. - LisaGemini
hi. Debbie Stier from HarperStudio - debbiestier
and HarperCollins (I have 2 jobs :)) - debbiestier
hey Lisa - debbiestier
I made it! :) Hi, everyone! Jen Nipps, freelance writer based in southern Oklahoma specializing in creativity, writing, plus-size issues (including fashion), and health. You can find me on Twitter at @JenNipps. - Jen Nipps
Your other co-host, Tim Beyers, here. Motley Fool tech contributor and freelancer covering tech, business, and culture. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
hey Jen - debbiestier
Hello! - David Cohn
Hello, Debbie. Thanks for joining us tonight! - Jen Nipps
Hello, I'm here after surgery (don't worry I'll be okay): Charles Bohannan, editor in Hawaii. Very happy to be here - Charles
Hi Dave, glad you made it - Lydia Dishman
Hello Jen, Lisa and Charles - our faithful crew :) - Lydia Dishman
so what's everyone think of this ipad? - debbiestier
The name is a little funny - Charles
Sorry to hear about the surgery, Charles, but glad you're on the mend. - Jen Nipps
I think it looks cool - but I don't think it's a game changer. - David Cohn
but otherwise I'm excited - Charles
Oh, and just a reminder...I'm still on puppy duty, so I'll probably be in & out a bit. - Jen Nipps
oh teh puppeh! - Lydia Dishman
David -- agreed, not a total game changer, but certainly opening the doors. - Charles
Is this the same thing they were calling the iSlate that we talked about a couple weeks ago? THen on the Early Show the other day they were calling it the iTablet? Either of those would be a better name than iPad! lol - Jen Nipps
iTampon is trending on twitter - Lydia Dishman
I've heard it called the iSlate, too. Yes, iPad could be confused with iPod, not to mention... - LisaGemini
*funny* - Charles
Yes, this is the device formerly known as iSlate. No symbols for Jobs or Apple. - Tim Beyers from IM
I noticed that, Lydia! Gave me a laugh, that's for sure. - Jen Nipps
iTablet is the best one, but not great - Charles
Isn't it supposed to cost $1,000? - LisaGemini
I heard starting at $499 - Lydia Dishman
apparently they start at $499 - debbiestier
that seems like of doable - debbiestier
not a bad price - Charles
OK, but I still can't afford an iPhone. :) - LisaGemini
in a weak moment of excess - debbiestier
that's what credit cards are for Lisa ;) - debbiestier
I like it, agree with Dave that it's not an instant game-changer, but it has huge long-term potential. Remember the ridicule the iPod Touch got. "What? You're selling an iPhone ... without the phone? Yeah, wake me when that works." A few million unit sales later ... #editorchat - Tim Beyers from IM
Let's wait another minute and then we'll dig into the meet of the discussion and Debbie can take some questions - Lydia Dishman
Me neither, Lisa. But unlike -- it seems -- everyone around me, I don't want one. lol - Jen Nipps
right - debbiestier
Honestly, the iphone is too small for me to read happily on. I need something bigger. In a pinch, ok. But I need at least Kindle size - debbiestier
I do want an iPhone, but my one credit card is maxed out. Oh, well! :) - LisaGemini
I admit, I want one. It's a good testing bed to watch new publishing evolve - Charles
It will be interesting to see how Amazon deals with the iTablet. - LisaGemini
Debbie, I agree about the reading on an iPhone. I love my Kindle! I admit...I want an iPad, even if it *is* a bad name. lol - Jen Nipps
i want one too.......will see if I can convince those at work that I *need* one for my job (which is completely true :)) - debbiestier
Hi Debbie -- I just noticed Tim's announcement of you in the post below. How awesome you're here. - Charles
we'll see how awesome - debbiestier
I'm sure Oprah will spring for an iPad, Debbie. ;) - LisaGemini
okay, we'll see ;) - Charles
right! - debbiestier
I'm sorry......but I can't say ipad with a straight face. - debbiestier
Going to the rules in a sec and then we'll get right into it. Really happy to have you here tonight, Debbie. - Tim Beyers from IM
There clearly was not a woman in that decision making circle when they chose the name - debbiestier
thank u! - debbiestier
Amen to that, Debbie! - LisaGemini
it's just all wrong - debbiestier
i'm laughing - Charles
I have to agree with that! Though I have to think there *was* a high school kid involved there somewhere. :) - Jen Nipps
Or a middle school kid with acne and * happy * dreams. - LisaGemini
k folks, let's suppress the giggles (mine too) and follow up to the questions above - Lydia Dishman
Hi everyone - joining late - on Baby duty - Peta Andersen
rofl! - Jen Nipps
the lowest iPad price with phone is apparently $630 - Peta Andersen
At least you don't have sign your soul over to AT&T for it. - David Cohn
Peta and Dave, please follow us up to the next thread - Lydia Dishman
Tim Beyers
BREAKING NEWS: HarperStudio Associate Publisher Debbie Stier (@debbiestier) is our featured guest for tonight's #editorchat. Topic = the state of publishing's union with technology. Details at the blog: #DBW #scribechat #writing
testing testing - debbiestier
there you go - Lydia Dishman
State of the Publishing Union: A Conversation -
After Three Months, Only 35 Subscriptions for Newsday's Web Site | The ... -'s results don't augur well for the newspaper industry's attempts to implement paywalls.
After Three Months, Only 35 Subscriptions for Newsday's Web Site | The ... -'s results don't augur well for the newspaper industry's attempts to implement paywalls.
Tim Beyers
Well, folks, it's that time. Please reintroduce yourselves and give us a link if you'd like. Also, if you enjoy #editorchat, please consider nominating us for a Shorty Award, which you can do by clicking on the whale logo at #editorchat
Thank you, Lydia & Tim, for another great chat! I'm Becky, freezing freelance journalist in Icy Iowa. Find me at Deep Muck Big Rake or @BeckyDMBR. - Becky
Also, remember that you can sign the guestbook at and plug your sites and work. Get famous on our dime. Well, okay, maybe not *famous*, but you get the idea. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Once again, you were all great. Tim Beyers, your #editorchat co-host and Motley Fool tech contributor. I'm also freelancing for a new American Express business publication and cover business, tech, and culture elsewhere for outlets that pay. Find me at - Tim Beyers
Tim and Lydia thanks for having me. Laurie, web producer in NYC, and you can find me on Twitter @lauriemeisel and @ArchRecord. - Laurie Meisel
Thanks again, Lydia and Tim. I'm Andria Krewson, in beautiful Charlotte, N.C., where the temperature hit 70 today. I write once a month or so at on hyperlocal developments, so let me know if you have news there. And I'm coaching and consulting locally for newbie citizen journalists. I'm interested in whether any hyperlocal sites are considering paywalls, and what tech. they could use, to serve what paying audience. (Just an idea...) - Andria Krewson
Lydia Dishman
While the NYT tests their new(ish) revenue model, we were thinking a hybrid solution would work better. What do you all think about changing the rights model for writers?
Do you mean copyright law? - LisaGemini
I don't think so. I think it might be in terms of FNASR, electronic, etc. - Jen Nipps
I'm not good at discussing copyright laws. I take it on a case by case basis and keep listening. - Meryl K. Evans
I saw an article the other day that said the Web has killed copyright law, but I didn't keep the link. - LisaGemini
Hi Lydia, Tim and everybody. I'd love to see a day when markup and coding for print and online allow a writer or photographer to preserve, archive and even put behind a paywall all the stories they've ever done. But yes, that would require some renegotiation and change in rights to their work. - Andria Krewson
Not necessarily copyright law in-depth but how your contracts are worded - Lydia Dishman
Specifically, are publishers offering to buy first rights only? Might they pay more for all rights? - Lydia Dishman
Aren't most Web contracts handled on a case by case basis, by the clients? - LisaGemini
Wasn't this tried at one point at the beginning of newspaper archiving and web production, by some freelancers, to the loss of the freelancers? I'm thinking renegotiations happened about 1999 or 2000, and there might have even been some lawsuits. - Andria Krewson
Right. Think of it this way: What if the New York Times or any newspaper became more like Random House, or Simon & Schuster? They'd employ editors and buy rights to only what they wanted to sell. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
They would have to pay me more for all rights. Otherwise, it's not worth it to me. - LisaGemini
A smart freelancer can reprint articles or use portions of stories to spin them into related stories for other publications. - LisaGemini
Lisa: I'm not sure this is as feasible if you're a Web writer like me. Tim Shisler and I had a good conversation about this earlier in the week. The nut is that websites need control over trackback links -- exclusive control -- in order to move up in the search rankings and they need a high search score in order to command decent ad revenue. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Andria: I hadn't heard about that. Can you tell us what went wrong for the freelancers? #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Tim, it's vague in my memory, and I suspect the folks who would remember are newsroom librarians (if any still exist). I believe in my newsroom at The Charlotte Observer, they called and renegotiated contracts with freelancers. Not all, I'm sure, consented, to be archived or put on the web, but then they might not have had continuing work going forward. - Andria Krewson
Here's a timely poll by BlogHer, "Poll: Will You Pay to Read the New York Times Online, Facebook, or Twitter? - Becky
Going further on this: Why can't the book publishing model extend to all forms of publishing? Why does journalism have to be different? I recognize that it is, but why does it *have* to be? #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Wasn't there something about different media too? For some reason, I think that was photography. But still. Same concept. - Becky
No way did I stump this crowd. You guys are all smarter than I am. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
We had to change all of our photographers' contracts to include the web in addition to print as it wasn't always that way and many resisted at first. - Laurie Meisel
I think the lawsuit was freelancers vs. Vutext, and this might have some hints, though it's later than I expected: - Andria Krewson
Interesting poll, Becky! I would pay $5 a month to read my local newspaper, the St. Pete Times, online. However, the business model has always been that ads support the paper, not subscriptions. - LisaGemini
Just checked out the poll Becky posted as well, and it is interesting that even with so few votes that 25% selected "none of the above." - Laurie Meisel
Most of us are really hurting financially and can't afford Starbucks coffee any more. - LisaGemini
Is FF being incredibly slow tonight? Or is there ice in my computer too? ;) - Becky
Laurie: You had to change the contracts so that the publication controlled the Web content, right? Or wrong? What we're asking is why do papers or magazines have to also be content owners? Why can't they license, as book publishers do? - Tim Beyers
Tim: Do you know why it's different? - Becky
That makes a lot of sense, Tim. Which is why it hasn't been tried. LOL - LisaGemini
Becky: Which part? (Sorry, I know I'm rambling and FF is slow tonight for some reason.) - Tim Beyers
Tim: It makes sense, especially when most papers or mags haven't been able to monetize that long tail or archives very well. But I wonder if the NYT will try that with topic pages etc. when they do the pay wall..... - Andria Krewson
Why is there a difference ... content owners vs. license? - Becky
Ah, gotcha. The difference is that the writer controls the rights rather than publication. So, were we to use The Times as an example, they'd buy something for me for a specified price and distribution and I'd agree to limit my content accordingly. The Times pays less overall -- I'm not an employee -- and I get the opportunity to do more with what I write. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Isn't that the difference between being an employee & being a freelancer? - Becky
And look at all those damn typos. Sorry 'bout that. I meant, The Times would buy rights *from* me, not for me, as if I were a seven-year-old out for an ice cream. (Sigh.) #editorchat - Tim Beyers
We license images for use. For editorial content that has been ownership so the same article will not appear in a different pub. - Laurie Meisel
Which would give the writer more control over the revenue, and the ability to use something again once the rights expire if that is the way they are sold - Lydia Dishman
Using the NYT as an example has anything been publicized yet on how they are handling content from say freelancers or is this still speculation? - Laurie Meisel
Does the NYT even use freelancers? - LisaGemini
It absolutely is, Becky. But licensing versus ownership saves money for the publisher. Doesn't it? #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Good point, Laurie. We don't know if The Times is going to use a paywall. Really,we could be talking about any paper or magazine and make the same point. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
I know at least one news org. resells the rights to content to other websites. I'd be surprised if the NYT doesn't do the same, so negotiating an exception to their common contract might be difficult, because it would mean articles would have to be coded in a different way so computer feeds wouldn't automatically export them. - Andria Krewson
So that makes extra work for the Webmaster. Would the Times pay her more? - LisaGemini
Lisa, I wouldn't count on it! LOL - Laurie Meisel
On the other hand, I think hiring employee writers because of the need to have control over content might be passe. Content already appears everywhere once its published due to blogs. Or is that too sweeping a statement? Is there an inherent business advantage to maintaining exclusive control over content anywhere but the Web, where backlinks are currency? #editorchat - Tim Beyers
If there is a business advantage, I don't see it yet. - LisaGemini
Andria: I really don't see that as an issue. If the Times wants to license *and* own distribution, put that in the contract and pay for it. The technology for managing contracts is exceptional -- book publishers use it to deal with thousands of authors and dozens of geographies. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
I'm not sure everything appears online ... unless it's stolen. - Becky
you'd be surprised Becky - Lydia Dishman
Becky: Good point. And a lot does get stolen. A source recently told me of a story of mine that was cut and pasted at a blog with no backlink, no credit. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
I found the concept of a piece I did earlier this week - regurgitated as a musing on Associated Content - Lydia Dishman
Tim: I agree, and it's getting better all the time, based on stuff I saw recently at the Science Online 2010 convention, aimed primarily at academic publications. But I would say books and academic archiving and rights management is more advanced than newspapers (I don't know about magazines.). Except, perhaps, at the NYT, or soon at the NYT. - Andria Krewson
With typos! - Lydia Dishman
Yikes, I thought web sites were clamping down on plagiarism. I had no idea it was this bad. - LisaGemini
Copy and images are stolen all the time, sometimes blatantly mentioning the original source and other times just ripping and pasting as Tim mentioned. - Laurie Meisel
No, I'm not surprised at all. I see stolen stuff all the time, even though I don't even read HuffPo anymore. ;) - Becky
LOL about HuffPo. That site is so biased. - LisaGemini
(Laughs at Becky's post.) Well done. - Tim Beyers
This is what happens when you only pay writers $10-20 per article and you don't hire experienced writers who know plagiarism law. - LisaGemini
Of course, most people should know from high school and college not to steal other writers' work. - LisaGemini
So let's get a show of hands before we go to reintros at 9:55 pm. Who thinks the idea of tying content publishers via the ownership model still makes sense? Who thinks it's time we tried licensing? #editorchat - Tim Beyers
I think we should try licensing. - LisaGemini
I'd say licensing is worth a shot at this point. - Lydia Dishman
Actually, what a lot of it is? Sites that make money off ad revenue / hits / clicks / whathaveyou but do NOT pay for content. They steal it. Then make money off the stolen content. They tweet "breaking news," etc. - Becky
Ditto, licensing. - Becky
I agree, Becky. We keep seeing the same stories and mistakes over and over. - LisaGemini
Now that I have a better comprehension, I would go with trying licensing. - Laurie Meisel
Who will write the contracts? - Becky
Keep going with your thoughts on ownership vs. licensing. And here's your killjoy warning: Two minutes to reintros, which will be posted above. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Licensing, perhaps even for staffers. Or get rid of all staffers, have everyone freelance but let them sell their creations everywhere (and for some newspapers, we're not far away from that model now.) - Andria Krewson
I'm wondering if we want to continue on this topic next week with a guest if we can get one. Any editors or publishers in particular you'd like us to try and nab for an #editorchat? - Tim Beyers
Thanks for fleshing it out -- licensing sounds like a possibility. - Meryl K. Evans
Contracts should be an opportunity for negotiation. Could be virtual or in person, but that is where a good talk could add to the business model by setting up parameters, editorial expectations (read: conflict of interest details) etc. - Lydia Dishman
Could we have David Pogue as a guest? (I'm only half joking.) He's a NYT staffer, but makes lots on the side. - Andria Krewson
Tim: Since licensing is more of a publishing model, should one of the guests be someone in that biz? - Becky
Andria: We can always ask. Becky: We can also try one of the publishing houses. We tried to get two key former staffers from Editor & Publisher for tonight, but no luck. Yet. #editorchat - Tim Beyers
Definitely a hot topic and relevant as more publications are adopting the paywall. I would love to see where this goes. - Laurie Meisel
Head up top for reintros. Coming next. - Tim Beyers
E&P would be good. And, hey, their schedules should be freed up. OUCH. My bad. - Becky
Actually, Becky, they are probably desperate to find new gigs. Too busy for us! - LisaGemini
Heading to bed. Great day and another great conversation. Thanks, y'all! - Meryl K. Evans
Sneaking in one more, a link about archiving at the Public Library of Science: ...These folks are working on a way to code article authors, and then RANK the quality of the authors, so that universities etc. can judge how wonderful the authors are with ONE number. Imagine when that tech. filters out to other publishing venues, or to Google. And imagine being able to claim all your work with one piece of code. - Andria Krewson
Post for reintros now up at the top of your screen. Tell us who you are and give us a link. - Tim Beyers
Andria, thanks for the link. Will review it after this wraps. - Laurie Meisel
Other ways to read this feed:Feed readerFacebook