Interesting strategy for avoiding leaked memos: leak them yourself by posting them to your company blog. Word's going to get out, so you may as well be the one telling the story. - Ed Kohler
Amazing -- they won't invest in their own productivity. - Dave Winer
Still, that means 42% DO use RSS which I suspect is much higher than average. - Andrew Smith
Most journalists don't read other people's pieces since they're only concerned with their own. Now bloggers on the otherhand... :P - Mona N.
It's strange that it's not higher. Does that mean that I could be a journalist, coz I read lots of blogs and use RSS? Not likely - Will Higgins
I know a few journalists, I should talk to them about how the use technology in their profession. - Will Higgins
Information Week's tech team should be the first to catch up. - just an observation. - Mona N.
I've been banging on to anyone that would listen about RSS for the last four years. Many tech friends of mine still don't use it or really know what it is, or else they're deliberately acting stupid (I can't believe they don't know) - Ian May
I bet journalists read more blogs than they realize are blogs. The RSS stats are the more appalling stat to me. - Ed Kohler
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I have a journalist friend who doesn't even use email... unbelievable... - Carsten Ullrich
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As Aaron points out, the press has been trying to figure out what the heck Norm Coleman's wife Laurie (an actress) was doing working for an insurance company in Minneapolis, and why they were being paid $75,000 by an off-shore oil company in Texas that happens to be owned by a big time donor (and apparent suit buyer for Norm) for consulting work. The lawsuit filed this week falls under "oooh, that's interesting" since it seems to build upon the path they were already heading. - Ed Kohler
Good tip: Kill the rats in vacant properties before demolishing them so the rats don't flee to neighboring properties. I've never considered that before. - Ed Kohler
Great stuff, Katie. I see that I've had a chance to dine with you at 4 out of your 5 top-5. Apparently, I'm not the person to call for a "Night Out." I get it. :-) - Ed Kohler
From March 9th, 2008 Bristol Palin (far right) appears pregnant in this picture but her mom (GOP VP hopeful) claimed the baby was her own. Why would anyone go this far? Perhaps because Mom is so religious and such an extremist that she is unwilling to accept that her own daughter had sex at such a young age, without protection, out of wedlock and was thus unable to justify having an abortion. - Andrew Baron
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From one publication: "According to comments from classmates and other members of the community, Bristol Palin was out of school during what would have been the last trimester of the governor's pregnany due to a bad case of mono. A case so severe, according to the Palin family, Bristol missed nearly 5 months of school." - http://www.postchronicle.com/n... - Andrew Baron
She does look pregnant - but that seems pretty effin' out there... - George Smith
I don't know. I feel like if they went to such great lengths to cover it up, they wouldn't have let their daughter be photographed in ANY way during her pregnancy. But it's a very odd story.... - Veronica
I just can't believe this is true. I don't like Palin's politics but ... this seems whackadoodle. - AJ Kohn
Very interesting! Will be interesting to see how this story develops. - Jeff P. Henderson
What petty little people you are. Instead of coming up with a real argument you use character assassination and unsubstantiated drivel written on the Daily Kos blog. - Chris Mayer
Not saying I think this is true or not, but you guys should realize that this is definitely not as "whacko" as one might think for families with certain beliefs. Even moreso for a family in the public eye. - ♫ Rahsheen™
people should be checking their skeletons in their closets before condeming *anyone* for what they have done in their personal life. Regardless of the fact that she is now in the public eye her beliefs - right or wrong - are her's. If you are going to find fault with the woman then do it based on her political career - as limited as it might be. - Steven Hodson
I would like to also state again that I understand this is a rumor and its an extremely far fetched one at that. But the story is so amazing due to several supposed facts or big 'ol coincidences. - Andrew Baron
Steven, this happened during her tenure as Governor of Alaska. - Ed Kohler
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So if true, will the child grow up not knowing his sister is actually his mom? - Rodfather
The real story is not the whacky rumor, but rather if how this baby is delivered is true, then she is a totally uncaring woman when it comes to having this child. She chose to fly when in a very late stage of pregnancy, which could have caused the premature delivery, she chose to go to the event after she was leaking amniotic fluid, she chose not to go to a Dr. after the event, but rather to get on another 8 hour flight with a stop, and then she drove to an out of the way hospital. Insane! - Brad Nickel
Oh, and now she's taking a job that will take all of her time away from her family and her new special needs baby. Hello? Family values? - Brad Nickel
Being as the baby has Down's Syndrome, and it's several orders of magnitude more likely in a 43 year old mother than a 16 year old, I'm thinking this is B.S., but hey, that's what people said about the National Enquirer stories about John Edwards last year. - Jason Carreira
Brad - "Since she has a chance to change the world it is ok to leave the family" Micheal Medvid. - Russellreno
Steven - when she is trading on the child to gain votes, it's not a personal issue any longer. Not that I particularly think much of the rumor in the first place. - Alix Whitmire ƸӜƷ
Wow, just reading up on the water breaking and then flying thing. I mean, it's medical, it's personal stuff. I wouldn't want *my* medical stuff dragged into the open. Yet ... it does seem rather reckless. I'm hoping we just don't know the whole story - maybe she did it all under doctor's orders. Maybe she *needed* to get to a specific doctor. All that said, I remember my Kaiser classes - water breaks - you get to the hospital ASAP. *sigh* - AJ Kohn
@Steven - Her career is based on those beliefs. - Brad Nickel
Sarah Palin Conspiracy right up there with 911Truth? keep it up lefties. We won't need to worry about McCain.... you are going to scare the American public so badly with your rumors that they will be ready to have Dick Cheney for president. - ⓃⓄⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂⓄⓃ
Why would people need to make up rumors about someone like Palin? She is as well known outside of Alaska as I am. (she might have me beat out on looks though) - jerry
I'd rather ask my wife on substance - she recognizes pregnancy much better by external look than me... - silpol
If this nonsense is the best you can do in the way of criticism of Palin, then it proves she's a great pick for VP. - Charles LePage
Compare the discussion on this on Daily Kos with the discussion here on Friendfeed: hit-and-run opinions on FF; a thorough discussion and analysis of the facts and evidence on DK. I wonder: is there something about the format of FF which encourages shallow banter rather than in-depth discussions? Regarding the pregnancy: in my opinion it's the business of the family, not my business. But before dismissing the story too hastily, recall what just happened with John Edwards. Any way you cut it, this is a strange story. The much more important issue, of course, is John McCain's poor judgment in selecting a VP who is unqualified to serve as president. - Sean McBride
Oh, no, there's plenty of good policy things to criticize her for, as well as her experience, or lack thereof. - Jason Carreira
AJ -- making a speech and taking a long flight after one's water breaks, combined with all the other peculiar facts, doesn't prove anything -- but it sure does sound strange as hell. Perhaps there is a reasonable explanation. I've never heard of a similar situation before. - Sean McBride
BTW - I feel very sorry for Bristol. She certainly never asked to have her name dragged around like this. I don't like Palin's politics but lets keep our humanity. - AJ Kohn
Noah -- just think how crazy it would be to claim that the 9/11 anthrax attacks were a false flag attack which came from within the American government. Wait a minute: that's what the crazy conspiracy theorists at the FBI are claiming. - Sean McBride
I hate conspiracy theories. That said, as far as I've seen, the evidence lines up in a way that allows this to be possibly true. And I'm one of those odd libertarian types. I'll let the media dig into this. - Ben Parr
@Sean, I think it proves she has poor judgment whatever the reason she used for endangering her child's life. This is the woman that could be a heartbeat away.... Poor judgment by McCain and by her. One big bundle of irresponsibility. - Brad Nickel
Ben, you articulated my thoughts exactly. - Sarah Austin
That's really grasping at straws. Very silly. - Dave Roth
Personally, I think this would have to rank of the highest order of conspiracy to be true. Not even taking into account the sheer craziness of someone trying to go through with such a cover-up. Lastly, I don't know about where everyone else lives, but I see plenty of high school girls here that certainly have a similar look...and they ARE NOT pregnant. Just pudgy in the middle high school girls who don't know how to dress well enough to compliment their figures. - JA Castillo
Brad -- if the current published stories hold up about the speech and long plane flight which followed the breaking of water, not only did she display poor judgment -- she is reckless to the point of insanity. Yet one more of dozens of reasons why I couldn't possibly vote for her and McCain. - Sean McBride
How the heck does this give any credible information to the issues surrounding the election? Give me a break! I'm sick of this "because she's a Republican we can't like her" stuff - whatever happened to looking at the issues she supports and doesn't support, her reasoning behind them, and then criticizing in true analytical fashion if she's wrong. These guys are politicians - they can't afford to change their opinion. We can. - Jesse Stay
My wife says that from what it looks like (photos, etc) author is right about who had delivered baby. Also she said *too many* factors which should make her visibly pregnant were not, and hence IF she were pregnant at the time any _average_ woman with 2-3 deliveries experience near her (she is governor) would notice. That said, I think she will get share of female voters who gone trough similar or supportive for "mom covering daughter" scenario. - silpol
@Jesse: This is soap opera stuff. And I don't like Palin because of her politics, and her use of power as governor. However, politicians do change their opinion. Both candidates have done that. 'Flip-flopping' isn't necessarily bad. I'm okay if they stand up and say, I got it wrong before, I've learned. Has 8 years of 'admit no fault' inured us to this learning concept? I hope not. - AJ Kohn
AJ, that's an excellent response - I'm tired of the soap opera stuff. As an independant I'm trying to learn the facts - this stuff just makes the side that's promoting it look bad. (I would say the same thing if it were the Republicans attacking Biden in a similar manner) - Jesse Stay
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In another article on a related topic, her stance on abortion was pressed and apparently she believes that even someone who is raped, must have the child. This is a very extreme view for most people who are pro-life. Usually they feel there are certain situations that would make it morally okay to have an abortion. http://www.dailykos.com/storyo... - Andrew Baron
@Jesse: Well, each party has these nasty elements unfortunately. I personally feel the right is more vicious, but then again, I lean left so I could be biased. And because I'm pro-choice (particularly for rape and incest) and anti-gun Palin doesn't mesh with me right off the bat. The use of her power for the dairy plant and in the firing of Monegan and severance for Kopp all worry me. These things, coupled with her inexperience and McCain's age make me far too nervous. - AJ Kohn
The Amazing thing is Rush Limbaugh predicted exactly this kind of attack the day Palin was announced. Is he smarter than he gets credit for, or is the Left that predictable? - Robert Hafer
AJ, Andrew, those were both great responses - now we're getting down to the raw positions and where we can have an opinion on the subject. AJ, personally, I'm with you - I put it in just the opposite way though. I'm pro-life, except in the case of rape or abuse or extreme circumstance. - Jesse Stay
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Robert - I understand what you're saying, but his "predictions" were the same type of thing I'm critiquing these guys on. Let's stick to the raw issues, and stop the attacks and rumors. - Jesse Stay
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Wow, here daughter does look pregnant in those photos. - Mike Reynolds
Lefties are so damn predictable. Big tent my ass. - David Risley
@Sean - you keep walking right into the brick wall that is the "experience / qualification" issue, seemingly impervious to the damage it will do the Democrats. If McCain is a fool for selecting a running mate light on qualifications and experience, what does it say about the Presidential candidate with inarguably LESS experience and arguably FEWER qualifications for the highest office in the land. - Forrest Cox
And if I'm a Democrat, I find myself in a bit of a quandry if I choose to pay close attention to stories such as these about the opposition's VP candidate while ignoring the equally outlandish-but-seem's-to-bear-some-truth-type character assassination stories about my own Presidential pick (Wright, Ayers, etc., etc.). Remember how far the "murder lists" and similar Clinton-related urban legends got the Republicans? There ain't no gold in them thar hills m'friend. Only pain, for everyone involved. - Forrest Cox
Better to win on the battlefield of ideas - that goes for both sides. - Forrest Cox
My favorite part of this thread is the right winger who said "HIDE" as if that will make this all go away. The republicans would have had million dollar graphics spinning up on Faux News about this if it were a Democrat and all the facts they'd need to justify the decision would be third hand at best. I'm not saying this stuff should matter, but it ALWAYS matters when it's Democrats that are the "evil-doers." Republicans always want to shift to talk of "issues" when they prove the moral majority is neither! - ScottBourne
I read this yesterday, as much as it sounds far fetched, look at the pics of her at 7mths and 8 mths. Look at the flight she took from Texas to Alaska while allegedly leaking embryonic fluid. If this story isn't true, then she's borderline negligent in the actions she took while pregnant. - Duncan Riley
@Jesse: I would likely make a 'pro-life' decision myself but still think folks should have the right to choose. It does make me a little nutty when a pro-life proponent is against contraception eduction and gay adoption. Seems a bit cake-and-eat-it-too to me. - AJ Kohn
@Forrest: McCain has seniority and length of service. Experience is subjective. As Senator Obama sits on more committees then McCain, they have similar absent voting records if you factor in campaigning, and Obama has been quite active in sponsoring bills. - AJ Kohn
AJ, I agree - the whole "Pro-Life/Pro-Choice" issue isn't exactly cut and dry. I hate the terms, myself because it's as if there are only 2 positions to choose from. - Jesse Stay
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@AJ - Philosophically speaking this may not be the case, but in practice the notion that "experience" is purely subjective is patently absurd. If interpretation isn't ultimately subject to right & wrong, why all the fuss? The only time you try to interpret experience in purely subjective fashion is when you dislike associated objective evidence that would otherwise color your decision. To then try to present such a judgment in an objective manner gives us ridiculous statements like your comparison above. - Forrest Cox
It also explains a great deal about the left's infatuation with Obama. - Forrest Cox
so far, who knows? post-labor day papers will be interesting to read - Gregory Lent
@Forrest: Sorry. But it's not philosophical. There are plenty of folks who have more time on the job who clearly don't have more experience. Let's be clear, I'm giving McCain the tenure and seniority. For time served, he wins. But I believe many of us have personally had experiences where we've accumulated a wealth of experience in a short time. Perhaps you have not been so lucky. - AJ Kohn
@Jesse: Yes, it's a sticky issue. Folks like me who support the right to choose are often painted as anti-life. I struggle with the issue and, as I've said, likely wouldn't choose it myself. - AJ Kohn
@Forrest: BTW - I'll even give you that McCain has more 'experience'. I simply believe Obama has enough experience to be President and that his platform is the best one for this country. - AJ Kohn
What a biased load of BULLSHIT! If it was Obama's daughter or Biden's daughter, would you even THINK of posting such a wacko load of CRAP? I'm guessing not! I don't know who I'm voting for yet but it sure as hell ISN'T a child of the VP nominees - leave the girl alone! - Jeff Garlick
The Daily Kos case is looking more and more solid -- see the latest updates. I'm waiting now for the Palin camp to respond with evidence to shoot down the story -- this should be a very easy matter to clear up. A failure to respond will be interpreted by most people as confirmation of the truth of DK's charges. - Sean McBride
The Daily Kos story is probably true -- if it is not true, it should be easy for Sarah Palin to refute. - Sean McBride
Can I "hide" individual entries in beta.FriendFeed? - Jesse Stay
Right Wing Response: http://townhall.com/blog/g/9b3... (The most important point: The picture is said to be from 2006, and it's hard to carry a baby for two years, unless you're an elephant) - Louis Gray
The story has already gone mainstream -- Andrew Sullivan at The Atlantic: http://tinyurl.com/5ss2wv I'm surprised that quite a few people in this thread didn't immediately recognize that the Daily Kos story had legs -- the facts and reasoning were solid. Of course Palin can easily knock down the story by releasing the relevant medical records. - Sean McBride
Sean, if that were my daughter I wouldn't want to bring any more attention to the story and to my daughter. The story's ridiculous, unfounded, and I sincerely hope my evening news isn't spoiled with news like this. Now, is there a way to "hide" this article? This has been around too long. - Jesse Stay
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I'm sorry but no 72 year old men like McCain have the energy needed to run this country. Tell me when you saw a Fortune 500 company run out and hire a 72 year old CEO... and tell the shareholders about all the wonderful experience he has? - Indio Apache
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Jesse -- if the Palin camp doesn't produce medical records to refute the story within the next few days, it is probably going to go huge -- as big as the John Edwards story at least. Based on what I've read so far at Daily Kos, probably no refutation is available, I would prefer that the mainstream pay little attention to all stories of this nature, but I don't own and control the mainstream media. - Sean McBride
Jesse -- you are completely missing the point. I have kids. I wish stories like this received much less attention. But there is a good chance that this story is going to go huge in the MSM unless Palin is able to knock it down immediately with the relevant medical records. Take up your complaints with the MSM, not me. - Sean McBride
Its ugly, but the record shows the Republicans leading by far the race to the bottom in this dirty campaign. That's pretty common. What is news though is McCain's reckless pop decision without consulting anyone or doing a proper background check for skeleton's in Palin's closet. And this is the "experienced" candidate? Reckless, desperate, and amateurish is the word I'd use. - Indio Apache
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If this rumor turns out to be false, I would like to personally apologize to Bristol for saying that she looks pregnant. But also, just wanted to note that there is some more info from Kos here that include more coincidences or possible arrows that point in the direction of this being true: http://www.dailykos.com/story/... - Andrew Baron
BTW, this is proaably *too much inoformation* but Sarah Palin says she eats "a healthy diet of wild Alaskan seafood, moose, caribou, and fresh fruit." She reportedly hunts the moose and caribou herself, too." - http://www.wnd.com/index.php?f... - Andrew Baron
I think it sounds delicious, but I'm probably in the minority here. ;) The question now becomes - who would win in a shooting match - Palin or Cheney? - Jesse Stay
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you people are on crack. AD HOMINAMINIMINUMINUMINATTI - ⓃⓄⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂⓄⓃ
If the Reuters story is true, so much for the rumors. This is a stronger rebuttal to the rumors than official papers of any kind. - Sean McBride
@Sean, why is this a rebuttal? Why couldnt this be Bristol's second daughter? - Andrew Baron
Andrew - I guess the key issue is "five months." Everything hinges on the number of months. - Sean McBride
Andrew -- and, even if the rumors were true, I think getting into this story is only going to do great harm to the Democrats and the Obama campaign. Most Americans will sympathize with the Palin family over this issue, and with good reason. There are other issues on which Palin is legitimately vulnerable. - Sean McBride
Finally, maybe this story can go away. It has nothing to do with the issues, other than further solidify the family's pro-life stance. - Jesse Stay
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I dont mean to be playful here, and Im still not advocating the rumor, but I still think this new news does nothing to dispel the rumor. - Andrew Baron
I'm really asking. With creationism, who made the dinosaurs? Or are those bones all fakes? Not being facetious either. - Jim Kukral
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The same who created anything else. For my part, I believe that God created them but even if it was another being, etc... I don't deny the existence of dinosaurs if thats what you are asking. - Aaron Brazell
I think there are many variations of 'creationism' -- for example, not all believe the world is 6000 years old. - Shey
Man... I grew up in the post-Bakker era. I'll never forget bringing up dinosaurs in my Southern Baptist Sunday school class as a wee 6 years old. I'm of course prepared for my eternal damnation but I just found the dinosaur books to be much more enjoyable reading. It's the first muxing of cartoons and /science/ I can recall. And by science I mean that which explains and predicts. Hence, the /science/ vs. science. Dinosaur theory has been altered greatly over the past 30 years. - qthrul
I'm going to have to agree with you here. Except I will point out that evolution is religion neutral where creationism is religion specific. Since we have a separation of church and state, evolution has more of a right to be in schools than creationism does. - Lindsey
Separation of church and state simply means there is not a state sponsored or endorsed religion, not that religious topics of all variety can't be discussed as they pertain to existing course matter in schools. Personally, I think a look at the creation mythology of religions around the world is extremely fascinating. - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)
Agreed . . . but it does seem like only Christian values and ideals are shared within school walls - Lindsey
i gotta be honest on this one - personal beliefs aside, I could care less what they teach in schools. the day i leave it to any other person or institution to reinforce the ideas or values I think are most important is the day I cede that ability. my faith is important to me but i am not exactly sure what forcing my kid or anyone else's to go through the motions of it will accomplish - guess I should add that i dont necessarily see the harm in teaching creationism purely as a theory many hold to along side - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
This is a much tamer thread than the one I mistakenly jumped in on. Good approach . Let each other have their theory. - Josh Haley
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@Lindsay But in the way evolution is taught, it's it inherently anti-religious seeing as most religions believe in a Creator? - Shey
Several notes: (1) Evolution is a fact. Microbiologists witness it happening on a viral level every day. (2) Evolution-the-fact suggests a theory pertaining to the origin of species. This is often referred to as "evolution", but the fact and theory are not one and the same. (3) Creationism is not a theory; it is a philosophy. It cannot be tested via the scientific method. (4) Even if Creationism did contain a theory, all theories are not created equal, and cannot be taught as if they are. - Roger Benningfield
Evolution may be a "fact," but I also believe we have more "facts" missing from that "fact." - l0ckergn0me
Keep it to private schools or college courses. We're bad enough at science as it is to waste time on teaching anything else. I thought it was bad enough to say '..under God' everyday as a kid. This is going backwards. - Rodfather
I think way too many people get hung up on the word theory. Evolution both explains the mechanics of biological diversity and, this is the real power of it, makes predictive claims as to what will happen in the future. To this second point, it's as accurate as all the other scientific principles we call laws. The reason it's called a theory is that it's not 100% fleshed out yet: some of the details need to be worked out or experimentally observed. The problem with elevating creationism to the level of evolution is that it fails the rigor test: it does not make verifiable predictable claims, nor does it provide any way to empirically observe any of the claims it makes. Because of this, creationism ought not to be taught in schools, not because of establishment clause, but because any relation it has to the content of evolutionary and biological sciences is purely superficial: they're not even in the same realm of inquiry. - Mark Trapp
Some of the details such as, oh say, everything left itself progresses toward a state of disorder? (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) - Kind of insists that if an organization is taking place, i.e. evolution, it must be because of some external properties/forces. Right? Or does that scientific principle not apply when it contradicts evolutionary theory? ;-) - Aaron Brazell
One is a theory, while the other is a fairytale. - Chantal
I disagree and the reason is very simple: Creationism is far too open - you'd have to cover every single religion's take on it. In a classroom setting there simply isn't enough time so it's best to go with the one that, thus far, has the most supporting (and testable) evidence. However, I'm supportive of research projects for exploring creationism. In terms of priority, I'd say its fact (e.g. math), theory (e.g. some evidence) then research. And in university there's much more room for research. - trextor
I thought all this was taught in Sunday school? Or do kids don't go to service and have class afterwards anymore? - Rodfather
Mark put this more eloquently, but - Creationism is not science because it fails validation by the Scientific Method. A "theory" is not science unless it can be validated by the Scientific Method. Therefore Creationism should not be taught in Science class. Scientific theories are acceptable to be taught in Science class. If it's not science it belongs somewhere else. In the case of Creationism, it would be more appropriate to discuss in Religion or Literature class (under comparative mythology) maybe. - Lindsay Donaghe
must say i am impressed with the civility and intellectualism of this debate - from my perspective +1 l0ckergn0me - I'll admit my faith is just that as long as everyone else admits that the same science claiming evolution as fact is the same one that said eggs were good, no - bad, no - good for you. +1 for trapp semantics are a bitch - evolution is far too broad a word to clarify the debate +1 aaron 2nd law, 1st law, biogenisis - at the end of the day there are alot of unknowns - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
Aaron, you're adding a value judgement to evolution which does not exist, and equivocating that value judgement to what the second law of thermodynamics states. Evolution doesn't predict going from disorder to order: merely that species adapt to the conditions they find themselves in. This is an experimentally verifiable claim: and this is as far as science goes. Whether or not the end results of evolution are inherently more ordered or better than what existed in the past is not a scientific claim. - Mark Trapp
Aaron, In terms of the second law of thermodynamics, it states that in an *isolated* system (evolution is not an isolated system), the entropy (not order) will *tend* to increase over time. Entropy is the inability of an isolated system to do work. What does this mean in plain terms? The second law of thermodynamics states that isolated systems become more inefficient over time. Not that they go from order to disorder. So even if evolution *was* an isolated system subject to the second law, it would not preclude evolutionary processes over any period of time. - Mark Trapp
I'm fire with adding creationism, as long as they touch on about five or six different theories from other religions, as well. I'm not fine with it if Christians want only their beliefs added. - MiɳiMagɘ (Sexy Scimitar)
@Mark thank you... that's a much more civil description than I was going to go into, mostly because I'm too lazy to type all that. Let me just say that people who don't understand science shouldn't use the word "theory" to try to prove or equate anything. - Jason Carreira
Thank you, Jason. The "theory" of Creationism is not a SCIENTIFIC theory. - Lindsay Donaghe
are you serious? Creationism is not a "theory", it is simply a way to get the Bible into the classroom. - Dave Hodson
Why not teach creationism in Sunday school? I don't want my children being taught a religious belief in Science class. - PC Easy
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Like Marco, I personally don't necessarily care if creationism is taught in the classroom or not. My problem is that if someone doesn't buy into the theory of evolution, they are automatically labeled luddites, crazy, idiotic, etc. y'all know what I mean. When in fact, there are some very intelligent, reasonable, rational people who don't fully accept evolution..... - Shey
Yet everyone holds it up as a standard because there is no other "alternative" when there are so many unanswered questions that most evolution-believers either dismiss or guess away at. - Shey
I'll admit, it's not all false, there has to be some truth to it, but the evidence against it should not be so easily discarded and scoffed at. - Shey
When scientific research produces conclusions which contradict a creationist interpretation of scripture, the strict creationist approach is either to reject the conclusions of the research, its underlying scientific theories, and/or its methodology. For this reason, both creation science and intelligent design have been labeled as pseudoscience by the mainstream scientific community. [http://bit.ly/sdrKC] - MikeAmundsen
Shey: what types of questions do you think are not sufficiently answered by evolutionary processes? - Mark Trapp
@Mark We can have a discussion on that at later time -- Aaron wished not to get into an evolution / creationism debate, and that's the only reason I'm even commenting. My real point is the ostracizing and ridiculing that takes place when one doesn't choose the evolution side of this issue. I think I'm an intelligent person, I've proven that to the people around me, so if people think I'm a fool for not buying into evolution, then so be it. - Shey
Judge rules against ‘intelligent design’ - A six-week trial over the issue yielded “overwhelming evidence” establishing that intelligent design “is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory,” said Jones, a Republican and a churchgoer appointed to the federal bench three years ago. [http://bit.ly/vGnjI] - MikeAmundsen
With the preponderance of evidence supporting evolution, and the lack of any credible counter-evidence, yes, I tend to think negatively about the critical thinking capacities of those who reject it. - Jason Carreira
RE: 2nd Law... The sun (a low-entropy entity) radiates energy to this planet. Most of that energy is radiated back into space, and the total entropy of the universe increases. Meanwhile, the leftovers are gobbled up by our biosphere and turned into fuel in a process that increases entropy at every step of biomechanical conversion. - Roger Benningfield
Right. I don't particularly care to discuss Creation/Evolution BECAUSE I'm labelled an idiot and not worthy of having an opinion. Also, at what point did I bring religion into this or insinuate I wanted religion taught in schools? (Crickets) - Aaron Brazell
Additionally, I can sign on to the idea of micro-evolution. I fully believe that species adapt. I have a problem with a big-bang style theories of creation though. I can't grok, nor will I simply through brainiacs waving flags of science and proclaiming unproven fact, that everything we see in this world simply "happened" through some coincidental happenstance. I can sign on to a hybrid theory of creation + evolution though. My faith can support that. But so can my intellect. - Aaron Brazell
Shey: fair enough. Aaron: would you mind explaining the version of creationism that doesn't include a divine instigator? - Mark Trapp
I believe in a divine instigator. That's me. - Aaron Brazell
Furthermore, I don't think I'm crazy. I'd appreciate that that inane bridge is not crossed. - Aaron Brazell
Aaron, so you're implying that you created yourself and every other biological process in the world? - Mark Trapp
Dude... I'm not God. WTF (Oh I get it... bud dum dum) - Aaron Brazell
belief in a divine instigator is your right. however your belief is not a theory and should not be taught as such. - MikeAmundsen
Sure it's a theory. It may not be a theory you like or want taught, but it's certainly a theory. - Aaron Brazell
No, one theory has a basis in science, the other is a fairy tale that most sane Christians (ie outside of the United States) don't believe either. - Duncan Riley
Shey & Aaron: Calling someone an idiot for not "getting" evolutionary theory would be like calling someone an idiot for not "getting" relativity... 99% of the planet would promptly fall into the "idiot" bucket. And you're right, that's not fair. - Roger Benningfield
Aaron, again, evolution and science as a whole does not involve value judgements regarding the processes they explain. Science, and by extension, evolution and cosmology, makes explanatory and predictive claims that are experimentally verified. That's it. To make sense of the world requires something else, whether or not it's religion or a belief that the world is randomly generated or that the Fonz created everything. I'm all for teaching philosophy in public schools, but it can't be disguised as an alternative to scientific inquiry. It's two different and distinct modes of inquiry that require each other to complete a worldview: they are not in competition. - Mark Trapp
This is always a heated topic. It truly boils down to definitions. The philosophical terms used to clarify the point are primary and secondary efficient causality. Explained in the analogy of the sculptor. Primary efficient causality defines the "who" behind the sculpture and can have discussions about the "person". Secondary efficient causality can only discuss the tools and how they were used. Science is the study of "processes". Biology (Greek Bio-logos) literally means "(logos) words about (bios) life" - James Herbert
Duncan: most Christians in the United States believe evolution is scientifically sound, too. The minority is especially vocal about it, though. The Christian worldview is wholly compatible with the science of evolution. - Mark Trapp
my mistake. belief in a divine instigator _is_ a theory. however, by any definition i find, it is not a *scientific* theory. - MikeAmundsen
@Aaron, again, if you don't understand science, don't use the term "theory" because you're just wrong. Creationism or anything involving God taking some action is not a theory because it is not falsifiable. The end. - Jason Carreira
Jason, I do understand science and you're not the end. Bye. - Aaron Brazell
@Mark Re: most Christians. Can you show me some numbers on that? - Shey
It's pretty dang simple. If you can't validate it through the Scientific Method, it's not Science! If it's not Science, it shouldn't be taught in Science class. Why is that even a debate? - Lindsay Donaghe
With that translation biology becomes the "studies about life" or "studies of the processes about life" Science is concerned about processes: The How or How to of things. Creationism/Intelligent Design begin with a universe creatio ex nihilo. There are no processes to study thus no Science in either the manner of Sir Thomas Bacon or more modern definition. - James Herbert
@lindsay, because people who argue for creationism like to intentionally conflate the vernacular use of the word theory with the strictly defined scientific concept of Theory. They think any idea they can come up with is a "theory" and is on equal footing with Evolution, Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics. It's galling, really. - Jason Carreira
On the other hand there are a number of real zingers thrown out there. My personal favorite (not a value statement but just because I find it humorous) is: "Evolution is just a theory. So is Gravity." - James Herbert
My final comment: Not fully accepting evolution is not a complete dismissal of ALL science. Get that. - Shey
Yes, Evolution is a SCIENTIFIC theory and so is the theory of Gravity. They're not facts... if someone comes up with a better theory that can be validated by the Scientific Method then those will be replaced. Creationism is not a SCIENTIFIC theory and therefore has no comparison to either Evolution or Gravity. - Lindsay Donaghe
@Shey, Evolution is one of the most rigorously tested and verified of all scientific theories. Denying it is, in effect, denying the scientific process. - Jason Carreira
Shey & Aaron: There's a flipside to that unfairness, though. My wife builds large networks for a living, and I (like most geeks) only understand about 1/100th of what she does. The average person, meanwhile, probably doesn't even grasp 1/1000th of it. And yet they depend on their networks to Get Stuff Done, creating a situation where dependency is married to helplessness. The result is a lot of defensiveness, misdirected anger, and magical thinking. Evolution is just networking x1,000,000. - Roger Benningfield
Teach all the creationism you want -- in a humanities class, along with the Hindu creation myth, the Hopi creation myth, the Egyptian creation myth, the Babylonian creation myth (here you'll find the foundations for the Judeo-Christian myth), and the creation myths of every other culture on earth. But in science classes, teach science. Evolution is science, creationism is myth. - William Harryman
On Usenet (or the Google version of it at least...) there are 15427 threads over at alt.talk.creationism. Can FriendFeed keep up? :) - qthrul
What I find most disappointing is the tendency to throw darts and daggers instead of a well thought out interesting argument. I mean argument in a manner after Aristotle's Logic rather than the knock down drag out this becomes. It is a truly fascinating topic for discussion. Unfortunately it divides most and in the divide the silence of wisdom is defining. - James Herbert
@Shey - Science has nothing to do with Religion... They shouldn't mix. You could be the most religious person in the world and still accept Science. Whether you accept Evolution or not is not the point... it's whether it's a Scientific theory or not. Why teach something that's not a scientific theory in Science class? Would you want Science taught in Religion class? Why not? Because they're two different things.... - Lindsay Donaghe
Shey, evolution as guided by the Father is accepted by Roman Catholics, Lutherans, the LDS, Greek Orthodox, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Anglicans/Episcopalians; this constitutes 66.1% of the Christian population of the US, according to the American Religious Identification Survey conducted by City University of New York: http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty... - Mark Trapp
Never thought I'd "Hide" my own conversation, but to be honest... it's become hurtful and depressing. So... "Hide" - Aaron Brazell
Too bad I can't hide my own conversation. Meh. - Aaron Brazell
Personally, I think if you reject one facet of science you should reject the whole thing... how can you accept the benefits of Science (brought to us by adhering to the Scientific Method) if you reject what it predicts as a reasonable and verifiable assessment of how the world works? We couldn't have made the advances in medicine and technologies we have if we hadn't used the Scientific Method the way we have. - Lindsay Donaghe
i would not agree with creationism being taught in a scientific context. it's not scientific. there's nothing wrong with creationism, people who believe it are not stupid for so doing, but it's not science. this was a pretty hot topic when i was in school, as well. my opinion as a child was: i'd be happy to learn all about creationism (not specifically Christian creationism, personally, but i wouldn't exclude it from a group of such things in a proper context), but ... - idnan
the attempt to force creationism to masquerade as science makes it a less viable perspective for me. part of why i learned atheism at such a young age was theism's attempt to impose on science, which seemed indicative of theism's inability to stand on its own confidently. that view is somewhat revised in adulthood ... - idnan
@Roger Benningfield Well said! Well Done! You've got it. That is exactly why discussions about this topic break down. It would have taken me the rest of the night to say that. Too much Philosophy major in me I guess. Again, Well Said! - James Herbert
That being said, because Evolution is a theory and not a fact that means that there is room for it being adjusted or replaced when new data comes to light. It's the fact that a SCIENTIFIC theory CAN change in the face of new evidence that makes it so powerful. - Lindsay Donaghe
One day, through science, we will achieve god-like power, shall we say, and then we will create our own worlds, new life forms, and more, and then we will no longer have use for myth because we have become our own creators. No one, not even historians, will ever again misinterpret our achievements, as has been done in the past through "church" and "institutions." - David
Aaron: I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm bummed that you find this hurtful. A couple folks have been a touch excited in their replies, but it seems exceptionally restrained given that this is, after all, the web. :-) - Roger Benningfield
I think it is pretty obvious that evolution through natural selection is fact, but if you boil it back to the beginning of life, something caused the first living organism to exist. It was either dumb luck, as the theory of evolution states, or an instigator/creator, "helped" the first organism to exist. Dumb luck vs. creator. I have no problem with a science teacher spending 15 minutes to bring up this point and state that as far a scientist are concerned we have no evidence to prove what happened. - Bryan Clark
