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Eivind › Comments
God's Cartoonist: The Comic Crusade of Jack Chick - Watch Full Length Episode of Documentary Features on The Documentary Channel - http://www.sling.com/video...
Eric Logan, Christopher Harley, Rob Haas and Eph Zero liked this
Looks like it's been pulled down :(
- Ken Morley
It's still there for me.
- Eph Zero
Hmmm, I see the 30 sec. ad, but then get an "error connecting" message. I know Ed is in Canada so I'm assuming that's not the issue. The 1st comment is a request for removal, so I jumped to that conclusion :P
- Ken Morley
I get that same error, Ken.
- Eivind
Jack Chick!!!!
- David (slumrig)
But same error - what a disappointment. :(
- David (slumrig)
Still no problem for me, except not having time to watch it right now. :) It loads and starts playing after the commercial just fine.
- Eph Zero
Playing for me just fine...
- Christopher A Carr
Won't play for me in Vancouver
- Neil de Haan
Has it played outside the US?
- Eivind
Doesn't play for me in Australia
- Mark
Ed, WTF?
- Eivind
I believe it's available via bit torrent.
- Edward Zwart
works for me over an hour long
- Chris Heath
Works for me too
- Eric Logan
Slashdot Technology Story | Best Man Rigs Newlyweds' Bed To Tweet During Sex - http://tech.slashdot.org/story...
Neil de Haan and Jenny Morman liked this
"When an UK man was asked to be the best man at a friend's wedding he agreed that he would not pull any pranks before or during the ceremony. Now the groom wishes he had extended the agreement to after the blessed occasion as well. The best man snuck into the newlyweds' house while they were away on their honeymoon and placed a pressure-sensitive device under their mattress. The device now automatically tweets when the couple have sex. The updates include the length of activity and how vigorous the act was on a scale of 1-10."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
Official Godless Heathen Bastard Christopher vs. Nutbag Evangelist Melanie Argument Thread:
Alexander Kruel and Eph Zero liked this
In order to avoid soiling other people's threads..
- Christopher A Carr
O.K
- Shane Abernathy
Wow. I just read that thread. I really wish I DID live in her world. It would make me feel better about the insane world we live in. But there is no point. She will continue the standard angry at god, dissatisfied with life, not answering questions approach that's pretty standard. Just remember what those sorts of people will do when they find out there is no sky daddy. Lock your doors!
- Shane Abernathy
Nothing? I was hoping for a good laugh this morning.
- Eivind
Great title :-)
- Alexander Kruel
Check back. She's become quite a persistent stalker, and I'll do my best to direct her here next time she hunts me down.
- Christopher A Carr
It's always puzzling why they need to list it's an artificial tree... on the box it comes in... from the department store...
Beau Liening, Mathew A. Koeneker, Chatsohbet and 2 other people liked this
They don't want you thinking it might be a real tree... that looks pink... inside that box with no water, or real tree smell... or something like that?
- Bette Cooper
I see you went with a #7 this year.
- Eivind
لی جیان پنگ 45 ساله دارد. او مدت 17 سال است که ناخن انگشتان دست چپش را کوتاه نکرده است!
yozpalangh موسوی, Mehrshad, fatima and 4 other people liked this
درود. من چندتا عکس دیگه هم از این جریان ناخن بلند کردن دیدم ولی نمی دونم چطوری ممکنه که در طول 17 سال نشکسته باشه؟ مگر اینکه یه چیزی تو مایه های سم چهارپا باشه اون ناخن.
- اردی خان
فک کنم اصفهانیه, ناخونگیر شو گم کرده.
- eynollah
Be jahanam ke nakardeh
- کاکا
ترسناکه هاید
- Haedeh
حالا خیلی افتخاره الان؟ مرتیکه چرک
- ѕнαнιη
که چی بشه حالا! - بعضی ها دل خجسته دارن به خدا
- M∂s♥ud
Why?!
- Eivind
Turkish people and their crazy GIFs... :-)
Çağatay Öztürk, Itachi and Kurt Starnes liked this
:) teşekkür ederim
- Eivind
You're welcome, I guess.
- Christopher A Carr
It was either 'thank you' or 'one beer'. Just showing off my excellent Turkish skills.
- Eivind
Google translate failed to give "one beer."
- Christopher A Carr
bir bira, teşekkür ederim. (That gives the desired result in Istanbul at least).
- Eivind
Lütfen, yeterince animasyonlu gif ile!
- Eivind
Excellent! I'll use that. *passes Eivind a beer*
- Christopher A Carr
Yeah, what is up with that, anyway?
- Eph Zero
I know youtube is/(was this summer) blocked there. Maybe other video sites are blocked as well, leaving them with crappy animated GIFs when they crave moving pictures? :)
- Eivind
What a lame conversation :-)
- Onur Gündüz
Are you not enjoying our deep dig into Turkish society and language, Onur? :-P
- Eivind
I enjoy a lot indeed :-) There is nothing more amusing than watching two guys having fun about my race. That kind of wisdom has always turned me on :) But crazy animated gifs might not be a good choice to start with. I guess you are subscribed to a crazy gif posting guy who is a Turk. That explains it all. If you wanna dig deeper into our society and language, you should have posted a...
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- Onur Gündüz
Plus, we were not craving youtube too much really. The ever-present Turkish attitude towards law and restrictions is not to question and possibly change the source, but to take it as a personal challenge to overcome. Thus pretty much everyone who uses internet in Turkey now knows about alternate DNSes and tunneling and so forth. I was apalled at the proficency and speed at which those pieces of information propagated. Youtube is still blocked by the way... (to my knowledge. it is right?)
- Onur Babacan
Before the blocking issue YouTube was the 15th most visited site according to Alexa, now it is 5th :D And according to YouTube Turks are the 4th most visiting and sharing users. No we don't crave for nothing you .. .!! :pp
- Onur Gündüz
Well Chris, if we talk about turkish, i have to introduce you with my friend "ucan adam sabri bey". You really need to check out this. http://www.youtube.com/watch.... here is the real spirit. "gifs" are not a good start point for getting to know turkish culture.
- Emre Yılmaz
Of course I meant no disrespect to GIFophile Turkish folks. ;-)
- Christopher A Carr
How shellfish saved the human race - http://www.boingboing.net/2009...
Alistair (alpinefolk), Tristan Hambling, Iván Abrego and 6 other people liked this
"Turns out, somewhere between 130,000 to 190,000 years ago, the human species was reduced to less than 1000 breeding individuals--just a few thousand people in total. Ancient, naturally driven climate change pushed our species to the brink, said Curtis Marean, Ph.D., a professor with the Institute of Human Origins and the School of Human Evolution and Social Change at Arizona State University. What saved us? According to Marean, the answer may be "shellfish"."
- Alexander Kruel
from Bookmarklet
Wow, thank you, forefathers for risking eternal damnation to save the human race. That's taking a bullet for the team.
- Eivind
Yeah, what did they not understand about "it is an abomination?"
- Christopher A Carr
Elaine Morgan says we evolved from aquatic apes http://www.youtube.com/watch... P.S. Watching this soon. Curtis Marean lecture http://gustavus.edu/events...
- Thomas Page
Not much support for the AAT.
- Christopher A Carr
having to resist writing a blog post about free will, how ironic
ZN Moment, Damien Franco, james reilly and 19 other people liked this
As you said the other day, it's not science. Or do you have a philosophy blog?
- Alexander Kruel
My blog is a little bit of everything but nevermind, the point is that free will IS entering the scientific language. It's not the free will we're used to (it's not necessarily conscious, it's fully brain based etc) but it's certainly getting in: on the brain science podcast just the other day they embraced it, and a paper I read this weekend is full of intentional concepts despite...
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- Christopher Harris
Yeah, it IS entering the scientific language. But wait, it's not what you think it is. It's really banana juice. Sorry people for the deception. Well, I'm not going to read it. Up next: the reintroduction of evil into the legal system. Again, not what you think, it's just free people doing bad things. Phew...
- Alexander Kruel
I think I know why you're so adamant about this. I was raised Christian too and the stress of spending many young years realizing how much of what I'd been told was false and irrational still to this day predisposes me to attack anything that smells like scientifically naive, wishful thinking. Free will used to be a prime target of this anger and frustration as late as a few years ago....
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- Christopher Harris
Seriously, scientists are also just humans. I've been amazed lately of how dumb educated people can be. Ever heard of Nassim Taleb? What a crank. Anyway, it's really sad to hear this. Free will is the creationism of neuroscience. And if it's true what you're saying, then woo is winning in that field. It's also not ignorance not to read some mathematical musings you may provide underpinning your notion of free will. I don't do it for the same reasons that I don't read papers by Jehovah's Witnesses.
- Alexander Kruel
It's not just religious opposition. I'm saying the same when it comes to all the bullshit about consciousness. Or take Roger Penrose, I'd tell him he's making up bs there any time. It's dancing around rainbows end. You don't need expertise for this stuff. It's just flawed reasoning. An oxymoron. Of course, that there is something rather than nothing is a problem that also conflicts with...
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- Alexander Kruel
Well, sometimes there ARE reasons to assume things. For instance we don't know that other people are conscious but the way they talk and act make us assume they are. With recent advances in brain imaging we're starting to be able to distinguish conscious from unconscious brain states which gives us more reason to assume other people are conscious, even though the evidence is not...
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- Christopher Harris
What I meant about bs regarding consciousness is the opinion of some that we cannot tackle this concept with science. The sacrosanct of subjectivity and the first-person perspective. I've written something on topic here: http://friendfeed.com/minds...
- Alexander Kruel
"If I cut my throat I may disover that I was dreaming or that I have been playing some advanced virtual reality game all along. Everything is possible. But right now there are safer and more promising options of gaining knowledge. How can I be sure? I can't, but there is evidence which proved to be reliable so far. I have to suspect that it will continue to be reliable based on...
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- Alexander Kruel
Assume free will? No reason. It's a concept that should at best be examined by psychology or the social sciences. It's a cultural idea.
- Alexander Kruel
Hey don't despair about free will being studied by scientists, consider this: Even if science truly incorporates free will, such that there are centers for The Neuroscientific Study of Free Will popping up everywhere the way they do around consciousness studies at the moment, then we may still get to a point were we understand the operation of free will in human brains so thoroughly as to be able to predict free decisions. At that point science will truly have killed any traditional notions of free will.
- Christopher Harris
I don't despair. I'm just worried about the underlying reasons people have to introduce it in the first place. Suspicious. And it may slow down discovery. It highlights a fundamental error in reasoning in that field. That is bad. At the very least, it will always act as a semantic obfuscation for calling randomness, unpredictability and spontaneous behaviour 'free will' when there obviously exist other, more descriptive terms.
- Alexander Kruel
blah..."for calling" not not ;-)
- Alexander Kruel
We can't know whether there "obviously exist other, more descriptive terms" until we know more about the phenomenon we're naming. 'Random' doesn't cut it, that was the point of Brembs' 2008 paper. 'Spontaneous' doesn't cut it because behaviour is spontaneous even in disease states where autonomous agency is impaired. This is why I want to write a blog post, to list the similarities and...
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- Christopher Harris
Well, nobody can stake a claim to natural language. If you actually want to create your own definition of 'free will', I'll refer to "'free will' as defined by Harris" (or "Free Harris") thenceforward. But what do you say isn't 'cutting it'? What phenomenon? I know that randomness is poriferous. Spontaneous is fatuitous. I commited the mistake to name those terms for the ease of not...
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- Alexander Kruel
Oh no no, I've gone along with trying to articulate and defend the new free will here but I haven't yet decided what I really think about it and it's certainly not my idea.
- Christopher Harris
The phenomenon is the generation of will and behaviour by nervous systems
- Christopher Harris
I think you're confusing a naive mind over matter attitude with a dynamical systems attitude where emergent properties are important
- Christopher Harris
Just forget what I said. Was maybe all bs. A blog post on emergent properties would be cool. Sorry. Thanks.
- Alexander Kruel
I think you should write a blog post about free will after all. I'd like you to unravel the following points: 1. To what does the word 'free' in 'free will' apply? 2. What would be the difference between a being (i.e. fruit fly) which posses free will and one that doesn't? 3. Does free will apply to a certain entity or behavior? 4. Is there a borderline between free and not free? 5. How...
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- Alexander Kruel
well I'll have to so something, just got this comment on my 'What is dopamine?' video: "i love this video. i too think that we're just one big chemical machine with no free will. just the playing out of molecules in a bigger scale."
- Christopher Harris
those are good questions though, hope I can address some of them when i'm done reading (still going through the papers Bjorn Brems recommended.. this Vladimir Brezina guy is vicious on the maths, hard to keep up)
- Christopher Harris
Well, that's completely obvious to me since I first thought about it when being much younger. That's why I'm commenting here and elsewhere. Out of sheer incredulity that anybody in his right mind could contemplate about free will for long. I don't want to be derogatory here. I could be wrong, I could suffer some neurological deficit. As I said above, I can't wrap my mind around the...
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- Alexander Kruel
And about math, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Alexander Kruel
You can show all kind of stuff with math. Just take string theory. If you want to prove 'free will' with math, simple answer: 'Not even wrong'
- Alexander Kruel
On the other hand: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/margina... - That would rock, I'd love that to be the case.
- Alexander Kruel
I don't actually care about the philosophical/semantic arguments around free will all that much. what matters to me are the cases where free will most obviously breaks down. how can we learn to control ourselves better? that's my real concern.
- Christopher Harris
Where 'free will' breaks down is really when volition breaks down. Anyway, self-control is the enemy of diversity. I'm here, doing this for a lack of control. If I had enough control I'd still be religious today, ignoring everything that might shatter my desire to believe. -- Always reminds of this quote: “If we could deliberately seize control of our pleasure systems, we could...
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- Alexander Kruel
This is just in: When Situations Not Personality Dictate Our Behaviour - http://www.spring.org.uk/2009... "Contrary to our instincts, however, studies such as this one demonstrate that it is frequently the situation that controls our actions more strongly than personality."
- Alexander Kruel
Full list of publications by Vladimir Brezina http://146.203.52.26/Neurosc...
- Alexander Kruel
That's something for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Alexander Kruel
Just Exactly What Is Determinism? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... / Forget free will and get on with empirical psychology. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog... / Free will is not a question for science. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...
- Alexander Kruel
Good question: "The will is thought to be free if a person manages to overcome a short-term temptation for the sake of a greater, but later, value. Self-regulation raises a final asymmetry. Suppose you have a choice between slapping a misbehaving child and patiently discussing her behavior. Will you get free-will credit only for patient self-regulation?"
- Alexander Kruel
How would one differentiate between a system with "genuine" free-will, and a deterministic system whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system?
- Christopher A Carr
@Christopher: What's 'genuine' free will? The last serious thinkers to take dualism seriously probably were Popper and Eccles in the 1970s. Since then, dualism has been dead. I don't see any professional neuroscientist claiming that anything other than the brain is everything we are, as people, identities, self. So apart from a ghost in our heads, what's 'genuine' free will?
- Björn Brembs
@Christopher You'd better ask him if a fruit fly without spontaneous variations in its behavior would be in any meaningful way different, from one which possess a spontaneous variation generator, regarding the notion of free will. To me it is a laughable resurrection of a obsolete concept by twisting its meaning beyond recognition. In other words, a "free will of the gaps" approach....
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- Alexander Kruel
By the way, Brembs' paper is very good and important work. Something I admire. I'm just calling bullshit on its interpretation. Just so that is clear, some people are easily upset :-)
- Alexander Kruel
The brain as system that 'transforms sensory input into motor output' is a working defintion but has nothing to do with the reality of physical interactions. It cannot be used to call willful action free contrary to deliberate acts that are purely deterministic. In no meaningful way, regarding the concept of free will, are internal interactions within a brain different from interactions...
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- Alexander Kruel
Possibility and Could-ness http://lesswrong.com/lw... - "The statement, "I could jump off the cliff, if I chose to" is entirely compatible with "It is physically impossible that I will jump off that cliff". It need only be physically impossible for you to choose to jump off a cliff - not physically impossible for any simple reason, perhaps, just a complex fact about what your brain will and will not choose."
- Alexander Kruel
Didn't know about this: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki...
- Alexander Kruel
One of the easiest hard questions, as millennia-old philosophical dilemmas go. Though this impossible question is fully and completely dissolved on Less Wrong... http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki...
- Alexander Kruel
@Christopher many chaotic systems in nature (e.g. the weather) are deterministic systems whose future states cannot (as far as we know) be predicted/calculated short of running the system, but we don't think of them as having will; we don't think of them as agents. even a willful agent might not be considered capable of free will however if his/her/its will expresses itself merely as...
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- Christopher Harris
@Alex "The notion of free will has a lot to do with choice and control, neither of which can be used to describe how your brain processes its decisions." This is simply incorrect: choice and control are the subjects of countless rigorous investigations, the terms are used in the neuroscientific litterature every day. Stop saying these things cannot be studied scientifically, they can,...
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- Christopher Harris
OK, Christopher, let me rephrase that: How would one differentiate between a brain with "genuine" free-will, and a deterministic brain whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system?
- Christopher A Carr
Björn: Indeed. So why is the term "free-will" used?
- Christopher A Carr
@Christopher (awesome name by the way) I'm not sure what you mean by "genuine", people have always struggled with the definiotion of free will, from Hume's compatibilism to Kant's transcendental freedom. I'm interested in this new intepretation of free will because it may finally give us something more solid to work with, something I can study in the lab and do statistics on. I think...
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- Christopher Harris
I only use the term "genuine" (and in quotes) to note that one can't tell the difference between the two cases I offered, at least as I understand the meaning of "free-will." I guess I'm with Alex in not comprehending why you bother with the term at all.
- Christopher A Carr
What is your definition of Free Will, Christopher A. Carr? Apart from any philosopher's interpretation, what do you say it is or rather, what would you like it to be?
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: You would be the only one in the thread now to define it as that thing which is beamed into heads by Yahweh, the Semitic mountain deity. Your inclusion in the discussion can only effect a hijacking of the thread.
- Christopher A Carr
That is not for you to judge. I asked a question. It is pertinent to the subject matter. It is your choice (free will) to answer it.
- Melanie Reed
Christopher, my reason for considering using that term is that most people have an experience of free will, and it may be that the process underlying that experience is very interesting and important. I'd like to understand the workings of that process in a small neural network and maybe one day reproduce it computationally. Also, people stress about free will with regards to the iPlant and dopamine in general, so this re-intepretation may be fruitful to that side of what I do too.
- Christopher Harris
Melanie: Actually, I think it would have to be accounted for by some metaphysical woo-woo along those lines, which is why I think it's nonsense. Were we to talk about the subject, it would devolve into the omniscient creator, pre-determination/self-determination paradox, which is not the subject of this thread.
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: How would the subjective experience differ between those two options I offered?
- Christopher A Carr
Thou mayest, Christopher. Not a microbe. Not quark. Thou.
- Melanie Reed
Christopher Carr: I think you're right, you can't really tell if we actually have free will, or if it's just an illusion due to the underlying mechanisms of consciousness. But, the sensation of free-will--the feeling that we have to make choices--is surely something we've all experienced, and if it's something we experience, then the underlying mechanisms can be elucidated.
- Victor Ganata
Victor: I agree. I'm all for the study of neural correlates of the sensation of free-will, or however you might want to phrase that...
- Christopher A Carr
Melanie: "Thou" is a second person singular pronoun. So? Appealing to those texts you worship cuts no ice with me.
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: It comes from a very famous quote out of John Steinbeck's novel East of Eden. The main character of the Chinese Housekeeper, Lee, who despite his position is a meticulous researcher of language. He explains to Cal at the end the fruit of his lifetime research which covers the main theme of Steinbeck's novel: Choice: “Don’t you see? . . . The American Standard translation...
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- Melanie Reed
Melanie: Is any of that supposed to constitute evidence of anything?
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: Prove to me that you love someone. Show me some evidence.
- Melanie Reed
Yeah, I saw _Contact_ too.
- Eph Zero
Melanie: In fact -- and Christopher H could speak to this -- I bet it's possible to recognize romantic love in patterns of activity shown via fMRI.
- Christopher A Carr
Ah, I get it now. The discussion regarding the existence of free will is just another insult to you, Melanie. It took me a few minutes to understand your presence in this thread.
- Eivind
Christopher: How then did people recognize love before there was MRI? How could they be sure? There was no evidence, if evidence is only obtained from technology. Can you name anything that is self-evident?
- Melanie Reed
Not at all, Elvind. I just want to make sure you have been given the opportunity to consider all the evidence. We can become "prisoners of one idea." The concept of Free Will was not originated from the scientific field.
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: Having a sense of self doesn't mean that the brain is not a deterministic system. ...as to your reply to Eivind, since when are you concerned with "evidence?"
- Christopher A Carr
"We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: I suggest that if you would like to contribute to this thread, go back through and read it all in order to understand what it is that's being discussed. If you would like to talk about something else, feel free to start your own thread.
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher, If you want to study something that did not come from your field, I agree with the originator of this thread that it is helpful to listen to those who espouse what you are trying to gain knowledge about. There is a connective tissue, indeed, a fabric that is essential to your pursuit.
- Melanie Reed
If someone said they loved me but didn't show me "evidence" of such (e.g., treating me well, showing affection, etc.), the word itself would be meaningless. In fact, it's a very vague term to begin with. What exactly do you mean by it, anyway?
- Eph Zero
Wait, no need to answer that and go further off-topic.
- Eph Zero
Determinism in the fundamental sense has ceased to be a viable concept with the discovery of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Determinism in the sense of predictability has ceased to be a viable concept since our understanding of deterministic chaos started happening. Dualism (aka 'genuine' free will, magic-man-done-it, or ghost in my head) has ceased to be a viable concept since...
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- Björn Brembs
Our sense of free will, the personal experience of it - much of this is usually referred to as agency - is an entirely different matter, although there is some tentative evidence that the brain functions subserving both may overlap.
- Björn Brembs
@Christopher Harris You are incorrect. You don't control how you think or when you are thinking. I don't know how you understood what I said, but it's a simple fact backed by such rigorous proves as Gödel's incompleteness theorems.
- Alexander Kruel
Brembs doesn't get that just by adding complexity and uncertainty you do not verify freedom :-(
- Alexander Kruel
As I said above (nobody replied), endogenous processes generating behavioral variability and thus non-linearity are working-definitions. This has nothing to do with the overall physical reality of causal chains. At no point the freedom of a system, in itself or from the environment in which it is embedded, can be derived from any conclusion that was attained in reference to that...
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- Alexander Kruel
I might have to clarify what exactly I mean by 'working definitions'. Every system and its boundaries are arbitrary or biased definitions. You can extent the variables of any open system beyond its defined boundaries. Thus it is just unreasonable to talk about freedom in open systems. Endogenous actions are ultimately depend on outside factors. And talking about the freedom of a closed...
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- Alexander Kruel
Christopher: I don't know how to discuss that difference if by "genuine" free will you mean a dualistic, magical power endowed to the souls of men by God Almighty. Like Bjorn said, no scientist would argue for the kind of dualistic, supracausal free will you and Alex seem to be refering to. If however you're asking about the subjective difference between a person with free will and a...
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- Christopher Harris
As regards abulia, free-will is merely the ability to initiate a behavior? Free-will is that which exist in agents who aren't suffering from particular sorts of DDM?
- Christopher A Carr
Aboulia is characterized by a lack of will, not a lack of free will. And it is not an ability to 'initiate' action. This would imply that you perceive your ability to 'initiate' action but not the initiative itself, which would mean that your thoughts are perceived as non-actions. That's where the free in free will collides with reality. We do not perceive freedom of choice, we think about options on an intellectual level and confuse ability with possiblity.
- Alexander Kruel
Christopher: Something like that. Patrick Haggardd writes an excellent review of the distinct brain systems that mediate volontary and non-volontary behaviour http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed... and then there's the controlled variability, the adaptivity, the intentionality and the relative independence from environmental stimuli.
- Christopher Harris
What is it that does possess free will then, the entity or the 'distinct brain systems that mediate volontary and non-volontary behaviour'? That's exactly the point, relative independence from the environment is as good as no independence when it comes to freedom. It ignores the fact that we are part of the environment, an environment that includes other supposedly free agents that are...
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- Alexander Kruel
Alex: no one here argues for a free will that implies that things 'could have been otherwise' or that the causal chain stretching back to the Big Bang can be subverted. the claim here is simply that the processes by which the brain makes different decisions in the same situation can be thought of as free will.
- Christopher Harris
Making different decisions in similar situations is the difference between 'mechanical' and intelligent systems. It is the difference between static systems and the flexibility of adaptive systems due to feedback and learning that allows for situational variability. I argue that it is not reasonable to use free will to describe anything physical as long as you are not willing to...
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- Alexander Kruel
Given that the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is a valid interpretation of reality, I don't think the idea of choice has been completely ruled out. The equations really do allow other events than what have already occurred. But I also realize this doesn't necessarily require free-will either.
- Victor Ganata
"This universe is constantly splitting into a stupendous number of branches, all resulting from the measurementlike interactions between its myriads of components. Moreover, every quantum transition taking place on every star, in every galaxy, in every corner of the universe is splitting our local world into myriads of copies of itself." (Bryce De Witt, 1970)
- Alexander Kruel
Even if that was the case. "Doing everything", or a Permutation City approach, does not account for free will. Although I guess we'll be a bit closer to something you could call freedom... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki... / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Alexander Kruel
@cristophder carr; if we grant for a moment that it is not possible to distinguish between a system with 'genuine' free will and a deterministic system whose future states can not be predicted/calculated short of running the system, why is making the difference important? If suppose that subjectively we cannot conclude either way, that is no proof in support of wither way too. So that...
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- Sandeep Gautam
@Alexender human or animal agents that are believed to have free will are not closed systems. all living beings are open systems and thus by your own admission can be free and have free will. Free will is important when thinking about agents and living things and a whole theory of mind or folk psychology module that is different from mechansistic or folk physics module has evolved in...
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- Sandeep Gautam
"Maybe the sum total of universe is not free or has a free will or a will at all; but a single organism (an open system) definetly has will, moreover will that is not tightly constrained, but relatively free and endowing with choice and control." +++ Sandeep Gautam This is a closer explication of what can be stated from other disciplines, if you will, couched in terms other than scientific ones, yet saying the same thing. In these areas it takes cross-discipline understanding,
- Melanie Reed
For example take Sandeep's first posit: "Maybe the sum total of universe is not free or has a free will or a will at all;" keeping in mind the following statement allows for the exception to it "..but a single organism (an open system) definetly has will,.." This is exactly what this statement is referring to: "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose [will] that prevails." Proverbs 19:21 It allows for what Sandeep's possiblity has hit upon: a lesser will within a larger context.
- Melanie Reed
@Sandeep Gautam: Huh? When have I said that? I said it doesn't matter, either way there is no free will.
- Alexander Kruel
Is there no concept that a greater will can set up deterministic systems (for safety purposes) that allow for the fluidity of lesser free wills in which to act?
- Melanie Reed
You're not going to get a hearing here for your "Yahweh did it" hypothesis, Melanie.
- Christopher A Carr
Then with all due respect to you Christopher, you're not being very scientific. You cannot disprove it and so you must allow for it. There is a danger in not allowing for thinking and possibilities that are beyond our measure of intelligence. We will go round in circles or continue to arrive at imperfect destinations. A good scientist listens and is open to possibilities.
- Melanie Reed
@Melanie Reed: Sandeep Gautam already made that point, sadly it's false. Read up on falsifiability and Occam's razor. Maybe some Wittgenstein would be good too.
- Alexander Kruel
To take the analogy with open systems further, everyone knows the second law of thermodynamics that the entropy increases as time flies theorem; but that is applicable to closed systems. One cannot argue that open systems like living beings would not exist that sort of defy the entropy principle (move towards more organization) as long as they live. Living beings , that are open...
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- Sandeep Gautam
"You cannot disprove it and so you must allow for it." That is not at all correct. I can't disprove that free-will derives from an invisible pixie dust-farting homunculus in my head. Supernatural explanations are methodologically excluded...
- Christopher A Carr
Alex: In Melanie's case, entertaining contrary beliefs is a slippery slope to a firey pit. ...it's the genius of the memeplex.
- Christopher A Carr
@xixidiu @cristopher that is what Melaine is saying that if you cannot prove it , allow it; that is not my position. My position is that given two non-falsifiable/non-provable alternatives, believe in one that is good for everyone.
- Sandeep Gautam
One can't (at least I can't) simply choose to believe the more implausible of two explanations.
- Christopher A Carr
@crsitopher you are on slippery grounds here...to most of people free will is intuitive and not implausible...of course intuitiveness and folk concepts doesn't count as scientific proof,; but it is pertinent to what is plausible to believe and what is not.
- Sandeep Gautam
At any rate, Christopher H's definition of free-will just sounds like "intelligence" to me. I continue to fail to see what's useful about employing a term with so much philosophical baggage. @Sandeep From whence derives this "freedom?" I can't figure that out, hence it seems implausible.
- Christopher A Carr
No Christopher. I started not believing. I simply arrived (and I did not get there by one dull and morbid route) at the discovery that there was no other alternative. "I continue to fail to see what's useful about employing a term with so much philosophical baggage", Because Christopher, you are more than what you think you are. Connect the dots. They are there.
- Melanie Reed
well freedom from immediate environmental influences or past learning history. room for behavior variability (bot operant behavior and conditioned behavior)
- Sandeep Gautam
All interpretations of quantum mechanics describe an indeterministic universe, though. Again, this doesn't prove free-will, but arguing for a deterministic universe defies our current understanding of reality.
- Victor Ganata
Victor: You aren't suggesting that the brain taps into that foundational indeterminacy via quantum computing in the microtubules? :-)
- Christopher A Carr
Melanie: You're the only one here who is trying to talk about Jesus. And just making vague assertions ("you are more than what you think you are"..."connect the dots...they are there") is not even remotely persuasive.
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: heh, I'll leave that to a certain renowned physicist to argue. But once you remove determinism from the discussion, I think it does become useful to examine the phenomenon of free-will. Sure, it's not the same thing as what we intuit free-will to be, and it doesn't meet the classical philosophical definitions, but there's still something there to study.
- Victor Ganata
Christopher, I wasn't hoping that you would make the connection today. ;) First, the anger must go. But I think one day you will. And on that day, the click of machinery will be one of relief.
- Melanie Reed
Victor: I can think of one renowned physicist/cosmologist who argues persuasively against the possibility, or perhaps that's what you meant.
- Christopher A Carr
Melanie: People with agendas as constant as yours are not pleasant people to interact with, particularly when the agenda is to infect others with a memeplex as nasty as Christianity. You might as well be chasing me around with a syringe full of smallpox.
- Christopher A Carr
Melanie: What do you think I'm angry at?
- Christopher A Carr
I think the term "free-will" is nothing more than short-hand for an ill-defined phenomenon that we all have some vague intuition about, but which appears distinct from sentience, and perhaps even from consciousness. I think it's unnecessarily confusing to just fold it into other neurological phenomenon. As Christopher H points out, the phenomenon of volition is something that has...
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- Victor Ganata
And what of the evidence for the preparation of decisions prior to one becoming conscious of the decision?
- Christopher A Carr
@Christopher yea this new free will isn't necessarily conscious, big change from the traditional version
- Christopher Harris
@cristopher I concur, the new free will need not be conscious; it can , and most probably is to a large extent unconscious.
- Sandeep Gautam
Christopher, I have no agenda where you (or anyone else) are/is concerned that is in the least bit as violent as your metaphor proposes. :) Quite the opposite. It is and will always be your choice to act upon it or not. I am not a virus nor is what I am telling you a virus or memplex. Indeed, if you want to pursue that thinking, you might as well turn it around and ask yourself if...
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- Melanie Reed
Melanie: Pascal's wager is bullshit.
- Christopher A Carr
Consciousness seems to me a necessary condition. Without it, what does the "free" mean in "free-will?"
- Christopher A Carr
I don't think the evidence that some decisions are made before your consciousness perceives them necessarily precludes free-will, though. I'd like to see them test other scenarios other than just giving a volunteer an instruction, and watching how the brain processes that instruction.
- Victor Ganata
If we're thinking of the same study, it just shows that there's a lot of unconscious activity when an instruction from another person gets processed by your brain. There's no indication that the consciousness can or can't override the unconscious activity. That leaves room for another experiment.
- Victor Ganata
@christopher I have already answered that. freedom from immediacy. freedom from histrory
- Sandeep Gautam
After all, it at least appears we can temporarily override certain otherwise involuntary functions of the body.
- Victor Ganata
Would a p-zombie have free will?
- Christopher A Carr
yes, if it (p-zombie) was acting as an agent showing behavioral flexibility and variability, our minds would model it as an agent and grant it free will . It might not be conscious but is both willful and without being sentient free in the sense that its unconscious could still have chosen otherwise
- Sandeep Gautam
Sandeep: Wait, one's theory of mind bequeaths to other ostensible agents free-will?
- Christopher A Carr
to elaborate on p-zombie, supposing that intoxication (inhaling alcohol) makes you a p-zombie momentarily, you would still be held accountable in thtis real world as the prior decision to take alcohol was perhaps mistaken and lead to the outcome. To use analogy of Jon Haidt, if you train your unconscious (elephant) incorrectly your conscious (the rider/trainer / mahout) is also equally...
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- Sandeep Gautam
People on a black-out drunk have free-will?
- Christopher A Carr
not on a black out, but supposing that their conscious is overtaken by unconscious and they cannot remember what they are doing, law and I would still hold them accountable and having free will (as they had freely decided to enter into that state)
- Sandeep Gautam
Legality is a separate issue.
- Christopher A Carr
to take further the case of drunkenness, a drunken person does not just react, he/.she acts by loosening of inhibitions, free rein of impulses ..and acts freely
- Sandeep Gautam
Impulsivity is an increase in free-will?
- Christopher A Carr
I guess free will has two parts...impulsivity contributes to freeness...freedom from history or immediacy...wilfulnness comes from ability to keep impulsivity in check.
- Sandeep Gautam
ok to better rephrase it ...impulsivity - freedom from immediacy....impluses not driven by stimulus necessarily; willfulness - freedom from history- actions not governed by past operant rewards necessarily.
- Sandeep Gautam
Regarding "could have," does Google Voice's speech-to-text algorithm have free-will? ...well, I guess Google Voice uses lots of statistical analysis. Suppose you have a speech-to-text algorithm that attempts to assign phonemes to acoustic data segments. If a section is ambiguous between a /p/ and a /b/, and the algorithm assigns /b/, do we say it "could have" assigned /p/?
- Christopher A Carr
"could have" is not my position. counterfactuls do not prove the point of free will in my opinion. I think more of given the same conditions different responses at different times that are goal-directed, spontaneous, exhibit choice of form and timing and procedure; google algo doesn't choose when to substitute /ba/ as /pa/; whether to substitue or not and if so when to substitute and why? It doesn't pass the volition test
- Sandeep Gautam
Christopher: Your last emphatic vulgarism answered your own question about anger. I may persuade with my arguments. I may plead with my heart. But getting angry undermines your stand. What is left is that marvel for something that to many appears a standard of intelligence and perception to which they must attain. You want the answer couched only in the terms which you have defined. Your stance would lock out the very thing you claim to pursue. Even Richard Feynman didn't do that.
- Melanie Reed
Sandeep: I'm hearing something like Ben Goertzel's definition of intelligence. Is free-will necessary to effect "..the ability to achieve complex goals in complex environments?"
- Christopher A Carr
Melanie: Feynman also thought that Pascal's Wager was bullshit.
- Christopher A Carr
to take the google voice algo example further, if the algo had hidden urges that would spontaneously and in unambiguous situations too, tweak the translation so as to favor /ba/ over /da/ sometimes and /da/ over /ba/ other times, then I would grant it willfulness or some freedom (it is not constrained by the text, but can decide on its own to translate a given text to sound; if it...
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- Sandeep Gautam
We're talking sound-to-text here. Text-to-speech is becoming trivial, except for things like prosody.
- Christopher A Carr
ok whatever, you get the idea...
- Sandeep Gautam
basically if after hearing ba correctly, if google algo still mischeveiously decidedtro code it as p or d, I owuld grant it some freedom.
- Sandeep Gautam
Melanie: "I may plead with my heart." You would be better off pleading with your information processing organ.
- Christopher A Carr
actually our folk notions may be appropriate here...we do attribute intentionality to products like google voice when they consistently f**k up in a particular way...we say what an idiot that application is and grant it sort of agency and purpose.
- Sandeep Gautam
Sandeep: Indeed. Humans suffer from hyperactive agency detection, Melanie being a case in point. :-)
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: You're right. I am a very poor example of a robot. I am to the depth, to the last, human.
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: High levels of rationality do not make one a "robot," in the sense of the word you're using.
- Christopher A Carr
Ben's definition of intelligence (on a cursory read) to me seems wide ranging ...his 'task independent pragmatic understanding of itself and the world' borders on sentience, so not surprised if he takes volition also in its stride. BTW, its 3 am in morning india, time to signoff. will continue discussion tomorrow:-)
- Sandeep Gautam
Been lovely conversing with you Sandeep. Good evening.
- Christopher A Carr
my pleasure too!
- Sandeep Gautam
Christopher: No, they make one increasingly intolerant of the sum of what you are. You are dissatisfied. Your path to satisfaction has one route and it is always to run round in that circle. But do you plan to arrive anywhere? Or is it to find pleasure in the game of the circular? If so, I can understand that. But it still doesn't solve the problem of dissatisfaction. It is just a higher level of pleasurable distraction.
- Melanie Reed
Melanie: With what do you suppose I'm dissatisfied?
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: You want to know rather just believe.If you are presented with a situation requiring belief in the gap where knowledge leaves off, that makes you dissatisfied. I can understand that. We all have that. It's what we do with that space that makes all the difference in the world
- Melanie Reed
"There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." <--- Why do you not believe that?
- Christopher A Carr
With respect, Mohammed did not come to come to make dead people live. He did not come to die for their sins and make a way out for them so that their relationship with God could be restored to what it was. Only Jesus did this. And I am grateful for what He did.
- Melanie Reed
"Only Jesus did this." No he didn't.
- Christopher A Carr
Tell me, had you been born in Saudi Arabia, to what religion do you suppose you would adhere? That you are a Christian is an arbitrary matter of having been born in a predominately Christian part of the world.
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: Again, with respect, it is not arbitrary. I have brothers and sisters ( in Christ) who are in Saudi Arabia, indeed, in every part of the world. I have brothers (in Christ) who grew up in SA and later through a chain of events moved elsewhere and then became Christians.
- Melanie Reed
Suppose you were born in a small tribe in the Amazon basin which has yet to interact with missionaries. You think you would be Christian?
- Christopher A Carr
Christopher: Christ is there, too. Though some of our brothers have given their lives in that mission. Of recent note (in this century) with the Waodani tribe.One tribe member in particular killed 4 missionaries, but later became our brother.
- Melanie Reed
You've no ethical qualms with destroying these cultures? None at all?
- Christopher A Carr
Of course you avoided the question.
- Christopher A Carr
That culture still exists, Christopher. They only difference is that they exist knowing the promise of Christ.
- Melanie Reed
These cultures are surely doomed anyway, but it strikes me as a despicable that you're so happy to be the executioner.
- Christopher A Carr
I agree with you that as globalization progress (through technology and big business) many cultures and lives will be uprooted. But it is not Christ who is destroying people. It is people and their greed who are doing these things to each other.
- Melanie Reed
I also wanted to make clear in case there was confusion: the missionaries were attacked by the tribe and 4 were killed. The missionaries did not fight back. They allowed themselves to be killed. It was this that made an impression on the tribe member and he later became a Christian
- Melanie Reed
We should move it over here so Christopher can clean up this thread: http://friendfeed.com/cacarr...
- Christopher A Carr
I'd be interested to know how you would describe the reason for your participation in this discussion: 1. "I came across this debate and felt compelled to respond..." 2. "Of several competing actions/options I have deliberately chosen to respond to this thread..." 3. "I never consciously decided to take part in this debate for a special reason, it just happened / I just did..." 4. "Because of / God / made me do it..."
- Alexander Kruel
@Sandeep Gautam: If you define free will as freedom from immediacy, how does one achieve this? Every stimulus must be processed immediately. You don't have the option to ignore it. To restrain an urge is as much a response to stimulus as motor output. Influence is always reciprocal. Non-actions do not exist. Besides, how many people would be happy to define free will as the unconscious...
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- Alexander Kruel
Alexander, I made an assumption that you might be addressing me since you invoked God in your question. This thread is in a "public" room. It infers general participation by that alone. The concept of Free Will, regardless of what it has come to mean or might come to mean, within the scientific discipline originated as concept with God and therefore has been the immediate concern of...
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- Melanie Reed
@Melanie Reed: Seen me arguing against your participation in this discussion? I actually agree with you in one point. It's a theological concept. Sadly some people don't get it, or try to sneak it into neuroscience.
- Alexander Kruel
@Alexander Kruel My apologies for misunderstanding who your comment was aimed at. I do understand the desire to pursue the concept from the scientific discipline. Strangely, (as it might seem to some of the participants on this thread) others have wanted to look through this lens but from a different direction: this is what we know. Now how does it work from here. Curiosity is only...
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- Melanie Reed
Do you think your god possess free will given its omniscience and thus prior knowledge of its own actions? Just curious :-)
- Alexander Kruel
One seemingly innocuous passage declares that "His thinking is higher" meaning that He is not constrained by the same constraints that we experience within our lesser wills of choice. But here is the kicker: He chooses to work within the constraints He asks of us. In short: he "obeys" His own moral laws but allows for a stepping outside the natural (what we perceive as scientific) law...
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- Melanie Reed
Seen that coming. You can't win a theological debate. Never mind, just trying to fathom if it is worth talking about this topic with you any further. I would, but I don't have the time.
- Alexander Kruel
I wasn't debating. :) And I don't mind at all appearing foolish. I thank you for listening.
- Melanie Reed
I don't mind appearing foolish either. Otherwise I wouldn't comment on such topics at all. But I have nothing to lose, contrary to some educated scientists that should know better. Anyway, if you haven't been debating, what then, preaching? I consider that as spam.
- Alexander Kruel
I have told you the truth. Spam, when I began in technology, was defined as repeatedly sending the same email message to a recipients mailbox, flooding it so that nothing else could be sent out or received. Thus, it was incapacitating the recipient's ability to communicate. That hasn't happened here. That definition hasn't changed that I know of and I have been in the tech field for a...
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- Melanie Reed
It was an analogy. Unsolicited advertisement for something I'm not interested in. I wasn't writing a scientific paper and thought a lack of preciseness in my word choice would be permitted. Nevertheless, I grant you a points win on this one. P.S. I'm off for today...
- Alexander Kruel
Just to clarify a few points in this meandering thread. Determinism, even macroscopically, is about as antiquated as that of what people in this thread call 'genuine' free will. Of course, anybody is entitled to their opinions, but of course anybody is free to ridicule flat-earthers, too. Free will is composed of two things. If we get too free (e.g. by drugs), we question the will. If...
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- Björn Brembs
I've had Tourette syndrome/impulse control disorder for many years during my childhood. I still suffer from other psychological disorders/problems, such as medical anxiety or having feelings/perceptions of things being venomed. I've never been able to focus myself on certain tasks. I also grew up in a very religious surrounding where people believe into libertarian free will. Thus I'm...
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- Alexander Kruel
@Xixidu not every stimulus is processed ; if that was the case we would get mad; be paralyzed analyzing the incoming stimulations. A lot of the stimulus is ignored and never reaches consciousness, so it is wrong to say every stimulus is attended to. Most are ignored and ignoring a stimulus need not be a conscious decisions; it can be an unconscious decisions. to say that ignoring a stimulus is also responding to it is clearly twisting definitions. .
- Sandeep Gautam
A decision is a decision. No need to twist definitions here. If you come up with loaded and loose concepts such as free will, what do you expect? Your volition is the sum of all stimulus, internal and external, conscious and ignored. Where is the freedom? The word surely needs to have some meaning beyond the fuzziness of unpredictability? If not, why do you introduce it, what is its use in science? How does it enrich our comprehension of natural phenomena?
- Alexander Kruel
why do you keep harping on unpredictability. Free will is not about unpredictability. Its not about randomness either. It si about freedom (from immediacy, from history). for eg, If I resolve not to reply to your posts in ana acrimonous manner , no matter how acrimonous you become, than though by stating it explicitly, I become highly predictable; I am still exercising my free will,...
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- Sandeep Gautam
Why are we attracted to Andromeda? Because every bit of matter attracts one another. The infinitesimals forces of nature exert their pull infinitely. I'm not arguing against libertarian free will here, although I know you believe into it. I'm arguing against the term in general. If you propose the existence of a will that is free, as implied by the combinatorial term free will, then what is the nature of will? Do people either act deliberately or genuine deliberate? Show me why you need to add free to will.
- Alexander Kruel
+++ Sandeep Gautam
- Melanie Reed
let me get this straight. you believe that 'will' exists but is not 'free' and we create an oxymoron by adding free; can you define what your 'will' is?
- Sandeep Gautam
Because the gravity between people and the gravity between celestial bodies are not the same thing. It seems that there is a blurring between what you are saying (influenced by experience from your condition as a variable) and what Sandeep is saying. Needs sorting out
- Melanie Reed
You can express gravity between people as that of emotional attraction or repulsion based on characteristics not the force between galaxies
- Melanie Reed
Yes I can: My will is the unfolding of a highly complex process, a sub-system of the universe, as defined by this system itself, into actions perceived to be shaped by itself. I tried to define free will here: http://xixidu.tumblr.com/post... - Just remove free and you got my definition of 'volition'...
- Alexander Kruel
[INSERT PROFOUND STATEMENT HERE]
Joe Silence is not Santa, Haggis (Sean Loyless), Head Ov Metal and 14 other people liked this
That is so DEEP! You've completely changed the way I think about [ABSTRACT ISSUE]!
- josh neff, geek at large
[INSERT SYCOPHANTIC DROOLING RESPONSE HERE]
- Jeremy (cropmarks)
[INSERT COMMENT THAT HAS 85% CHANCE OF KILLING THREAD STONE DEAD HERE]
- Mark H
Hey - that's my job!
- Jeremy (cropmarks)
I'm not able to insert anything between any of the square brackets :(
- Eivind
That's what she said?
- Johnny Worthington
I KNOW, hence the sad face.
- Eivind
Damnit!
- Jordi Soler
[GENERAL DISAGREEMENT]
- Morgan Haley
[INSERT REMARK GUARANTEED TO GENERATE LOL @MIKE]
- Mike Nencetti
[INSERT FAWNING ADORATION OF J. WORTHINGTON AND HEATED CONDEMNATION OF DISAGREEMENT HERE]
- Bette Cooper
[INSERT A 1UP OR +++ FOR CLEVER PERSON I LIKED IN THE COMMENTS]
- aden
[MORGAN IS CUTE AND A VERY GOOD KISSER]
- Morgan Haley
[pedantic nitpicking of word that appears minor but in my mind markedly affects the meaning of the post]
- Andrew C
[INSERT THREAD HIJACKING CLAIM @MORGAN HERE, FOR TRYING TO DETRACT FROM THE WISDOM OF THE JOHNNY]
- Bette Cooper
[INSERT PROFANE STATEMENT HERE]
- not making you smarter
LOL@LB
- Jeremy (cropmarks)
I find this to be [SNARKY PUN] LOL
- Glen Mistletoe
[ACRONYM TO SHOW I AM LAUGHING...OUT LOUD]
- Josh Haley
I can't fit .........
- VAL D. Zone
[INSERT MESSAGE EXPRESSING LOVE FOR ALL THREAD PARTICIPANTS]
- Johnny Worthington
from iPhone
[INSERT ONOMATOPOEIA EXPRESSING TENDER EMOTIONS]
- Eivind
[INSERT EMPTY INSINCERE APOLOGY FOR HIJACK ATTEMPT HERE]
- Morgan Haley
[INSERT FOOT IN MOUTH. PROCEED TO SUCK TOES INAPPROPRIATELY]
- Morgan Haley
[INSERT STATEMENT ON CONDITION OF FEET] [INSERT EDIT] [INSERT APOLOGIES FOR POSTING TO THE WRONG THREAD]
- Glen Mistletoe
[INSERT PENIS INTO SHEEP'S BUTT] oops, wrong thread....
- Morgan Haley
[INSERT TAB A INTO SLOT B]
- josh neff, geek at large
that trick never works!
- Morgan Haley
[MORGAN IS SINGLE, HETEROSEXUAL AND CAN TOUCH HIS NOSE WITH HIS TONGUE]
- Morgan Haley
[INSERT COMPLIMENT OF JOHNNY HERE "Johnny Rocks Like A Hair Band on Speed!"]
- Morgan Haley
[insert small lettered compliment of Jeremy's use of the word 'Sycophantic']
- Morgan Haley
lawl@morgan X 3
- Jeremy (cropmarks)
[INSERT EXPRESSION OF SHOCK AT DIRECTION THREAD HAS TAKEN HERE with appropriate emoticon]
- Bette Cooper
X+1
- Mo Kargas
[ADD QUAINT COLLOQUIALISM HERE]
- Joe Pierce
Word.
- Mark "DerBingle" J
[RETURNS THREAD TO IT'S ORIGINS - COMPLIMENTARY STATEMENT REGARDING JOHNNY HERE]
- Morgan Haley
[MAKES REMARK ABOUT PARLEY P. PRATT AND SOMEHOW WORKS IN REFERENCE TO LEGO]
- Joe Silence is not Santa
Christians outraged by poster showing Mary and Joseph after sex - Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news...
Neil de Haan, ultraehsan, Janice and 4 other people liked this
"The large poster depicts a dejected-looking Joseph lying next to Mary, whose eyes are turned heavenwards, under the words: "Poor Joseph. God was a hard act to follow.""
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
"Within hours of the billboard being erected outside the Anglican church of St Matthew's in the City, in central Auckland, it had been attacked by a man who clambered on to the roof of his car to smear brown paint over it. As a result it was almost obliterated and the church, which describes itself as "progressive", is seeking a replacement. Archdeacon Glynn Cardy said the billboard was...
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- Eivind
They could always use the apocryphal story from Josephs perspective in the Protoevangelium of James. It has always been much more believable to me than the conventional version most religious practitioners are familiar with. "My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things."
- Eric Logan
Blasphemy! There are only four gospels, twelve disciples and ONE Christ!
- Eivind
Amusing - but to St. Matthew's: why not throw the baby out with the bathwater?
- David (slumrig)
Sexual Terrorism and Tiger | Psychology Today - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...
Eric Logan liked this
"Despite all the macho posturing, American culture seems to be increasingly paralyzed by fear. Tea-baggers fear Obama is a secret Muslim Nazi planning to kill old people. Republicans tremble at the thought of housing illegally-detained, unconvicted, suspected terrorists in ultra super-max prisons in Indiana. The thought of trying a few more in Manhattan sets spines a-shiver across the nation. But perhaps even more than terrorists or socialism, Americans are terrified of out-of-control sex. Tiger Woods' principal offense is his having betrayed the increasingly untenable American ideal of utterly domesticated sexuality. America loved Tiger cause he seemed to prove that even a guy who looks chocolate on the outside can be utterly vanilla on the inside. I'm reminded of Chris Rock's line about the tiger that attacked his trainer in Las Vegas: "That Tiger ain't gone crazy. That tiger went tiger!""
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
"Men are fascinated by sex with novel women. Is this still news? Does anyone still dispute this? Many, if not most men in positions of plentiful sexual opportunity will take advantage of that opportunity -- at least occasionally. Many women will find this offensive, but what's really offensive is our collective inability (or unwillingness) to face reality. By saying that, I don't mean...
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- Eivind
Crime as a brain disorder | Psychology Today - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...
""His brain made him do it" is a familiar legal defense. The possibility of neuro-chemical abnormality is floated in the press every time an unmotivated shooting takes innocent life as in Fort Bragg and Virginia Tech. Judges and jurors rarely buy the neural defense, however, so it is little used. Who is right? Can morality be pinpointed in the human brain? Is crime caused by brain malfunction? Perhaps the most dramatic evidence that morality is localized in the brain concerns Phineas Gage, a railroad foreman. Gage had been squeaky clean until the subject of a blasting accident in 1848. The explosion drove a tamping iron right through his brain. The bar evidently severed connections between the left frontal lobe and lower-lying structures involved in regulating aggression and other emotions. The frontal lobe plays a pivotal role in decision-making and seems key to moral action Following his accident, Gage embarrassed his friends and associates by making socially inappropriate sexual...
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- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
Hello, I’m Jim Donnelly from the Internet! [PIC] - http://www.zee.me/blog...
![Hello, I’m Jim Donnelly from the Internet! [PIC]](http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/zee/HauglvsIJsfoABjDlrumDJvHzomoABhjIvrglnHJsGtqdiAiboHoqafvFBhG/media_httpsbuzzfedcomstaticimagebuzzterminal012009121517helloimjimdonnellyfromtheinternet3064212609159692jpg_snCnrDdBtvCbnuD.jpg.scaled500.jpg "Hello, I’m Jim Donnelly from the Internet! [PIC]") |
cyb, Eivind, Batu and 3 other people liked this
Creepy perv is creepy.
- Nick Martin
That is just great
- M F
Oh, you're _that_ Jim Donnelly.
- Eivind
For Bicyclists Needing a Boost, This Wheel May Help - NYTimes.com - http://www.nytimes.com/2009...
Onur Gündüz, Jenny Morman, خرچنگ زاده and Eivind liked this
"The Senseable City Laboratory at M.I.T. has designed a wheel that captures the kinetic energy released when a rider brakes and saves it for when the rider needs a boost."
- Janice
from Bookmarklet
Looks cool, but i wonder how that big lump of tech in the middle of the back wheel fares under a crosswind.
- Slappy Line
I'm more worried it will suddenly decide I need a boost (throwing me in front of a bus) :)
- Eivind
A scientist is QUOTE MINED on a Discovery dinosaur documentary : Tetrapod Zoology - http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapo...
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"You're being interviewed for a TV documentary, and that documentary will focus on your special area of expertise. For the purposes of this article, let's pretend that you're an expert on sauropod dinosaurs. While being interviewed, you're asked about the possible function of a peculiar and enigmatic structure: the cavernous expansion present in the sauropod sacral region. As everyone knows, the idea that the sacral expansion might have functioned as a sort of 'second brain' was once mooted in the literature, and - because it was a fun idea that jived well with the well-known fact that sauropods have small brains - it became rapidly absorbed into the popular literature."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
"The 'second brain' idea is crap, though there is the caveat that the spinal cords of all animals are involved in motion control that occurs somewhat independently of the brain. Sacral expansions just like those of sauropods are also seen in birds. They're nothing to do with 'second brains'; rather, an organ called the glycogen body is housed here (astonishingly, we're still not exactly...
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- Eivind
Football | My[confined]Space - http://www.myconfinedspace.com/...
Creative Photography, Zahra HB, نیکی and 9 other people liked this
I rest my case.
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
good one
- Chris Heath
Excellent proof.
- Itachi
Nope.
- Eric @ CSTechcast.com
from iPhone
Do you have a picture to back that up? ;)
- Eivind
I'm convinced. I could never make much sense of hangegg anyway, neither the game nor the name
- نیکی
I refuse to believe that this is anything but satirical :-) (from soberinanightclub) - http://www.soberinanightclub.com/2009...
Will Higgins™ and Tsali, The Native of FF liked this
On the other hand: if everything is determined by a god, then anyone can do anything as it is inevitable due to the "fate".... and if someone sins due to that fate, (s)he'll be held accountable for it (at least in Christian religion), anyway.
- Jemm
poe?
- Eivind
I like how there's a typo in the first sentence, and the second paragraph makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That sums it up pretty well.
- Will Higgins™
Scientists Find Oddball Right-Side-Up Bat in Madagascar | Discoblog | Discover Magazine - http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/discobl...
Lo is not learning, Iván Abrego and Jenny Morman liked this
"You know the prevailing posture of a bat in repose—hanging upside down. All but six of the known 1,200 bat species in the world roost with their heads down, but now naturalists have had the chance to study a Madagascar bat that not only roots right-side-up, it hangs onto surfaces in a totally unexpected way. Myzopoda aurita is endangered and listed as vulnerable to extinction. But a team lead by Brown University’s Daniel Riskin got to travel to Madagascar and found colonies of the bat in newly grown forests. There they found that the bat roots right side up by deploying a kind of liquid adhesive."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
Banned 18th century pornographic cartoons to go on display | ABlogAboutHistory.com - http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/2009...
Onur Gündüz and Daniela Blanco liked this
"Forty images by James Gillray, a leading caricaturist of the late 1700s, were discovered recently by workers at the Ministry of Justice during an office move. A museum spokesman said the album featured ”explicitly sexual, scatological and politically outrageous” subject matter. David Pearson, an official in the MoJ’s Criminal Law Policy Unit, found the folio during an office move. “The folio was carefully wrapped up alongside a collection of seized material that had been handed to the old obscene publications unit over the years,” he said. “That material is fairly tame by today’s standards, but when I uncovered the folio it was clear that it was something a little out of the ordinary."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
'Out West' at the Autry examines the history of homosexuals and transgender people in the Old West -- latimes.com - http://www.latimes.com/enterta...
"Say the words "gay cowboy" and chances are the conversation will turn to "Brokeback Mountain," the 2005 film starring Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, and based on the Annie Proulx short story. The Oscar-winning drama, which is set in the 1960s to '80s, highlighted a long-submerged facet of frontier culture. But as a new series at the Autry National Center shows, the presence of homosexuals and transgender individuals in the American West is much older than the movie might lead you to think. It is, in fact, almost as old as the West itself."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
It amuses me when Americans talk of giving eggnog or cider to their children. Here in blighty, those are alcoholic drinks. I know, I know, you have "hard" cider too, but, well, it still amuses me.
Jim Is Not Smart, Mark H, VAL D. Zone and 5 other people liked this
and what's wrong with likkering up the kids? They're so much easier to watch then.
- anna sauce
But you can get eggnog without the "kick". :-D
- Paulette Garcia Morris
We amuse you? OK, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little f**ked up maybe, but we Americans are funny how, I mean funny like we're clowns, we amuse you? We make you laugh, We're here to f**kin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How are we funny?
- Morgan Haley
Americans are so cute. </condescending voice>
- Eivind
*blushes* thank you!
- Morgan Haley
lol, nice one Morgan. And that's what makes you guys so amusing :-)
- Slappy Line
Storm, by Tim Minchin - http://berto-meister.blogspot.com/2009...
Still good.
- Eivind
Carendar 2010 : HEIDI
Hehe, I used to watch a different adaption of 'Heidi' when I was a kid :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Eivind
Hi, Eivind!
- Keiko Yamada
Hi, Keiko :)
- Eivind
Stopped to roll around in the prettiest leaves. I wanted to pick them all up and keep them with me. Why not?
Wietz, Steven Perez, VAL D. Zone and 12 other people liked this
85% sure no one saw me.
- Lo is not learning
But 5 minutes after you left, one tree breathed a sigh of relief and said "Thank God that creepy stalker girl left. Have you seen the way she looks at us? It makes me feel so... dirty."
- Brad Greer
HA! I do try to only hit on the trees that seem interested. It's a bit hard to tell.
- Lo is not learning
Look for wood... (oh no, sorry)
- Eivind
I love that you actually took time to roll around in leaves today.
- cecily
Gotta enjoy them while I can! The fall leaves here are remarkable, considering we don't really have seasons. (and it happens in December!)
- Lo is not learning
Oh man, Eivind, I just got that. First good hard laugh of the day, and an excellent stress relief - you did give me a tip after all :)
- Lo is not learning
" when you are HIGH you can do everything you normally do just as well...you just realize it's not worth a fucking effort! " - Bill Hicks
IΞhsan, rezaraz59, UHU and 3 other people liked this
PHOTOS: Somalian Stoned To Death By Extremists For Adultery - http://despardes.com/?p=10823
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mohammadk, میر "مسعود" موسوی, Itachi and 3 other people liked this
"New York: GRAPHIC PHOTOS of a Somali man being stoned to death for adultery in a village close to Somalia’s capital Mogadishu have surfaced. Somalian Islamic extremists and militants on Sunday stoned a man to death for adultery in front of hundreds of local residents. A second man, Ahmed Mohamoud Awale, 61, who was accused of murder, was shot to death. Hundreds of villagers were forced to watch the stoning by the militants."
- Eivind
from Bookmarklet
Somehow I don't think secular humanists would have the same approach - but we know how 'immoral' we would all become without 'God'.
- David (slumrig)
توحش قانونی مان به یاد آمد
- hedayat
I suspect you are right, David, and in any case it would be easier for people to speak up locally if the punishment wasn't prescribed by a "holy book". As it is now it is blasphemy to suggest it is barbaric to throw stones at this poor guys head :(
- Eivind
:((((((((((((((((((((
- AJ Batac
Every anti-irritation muscle & fiber of my being is strained to the max, but I'm starting to worry it won't be enough for three and a half more hours.
rowlikeagirl, Penguin It's Cold Outside, Alex Scoble and John (a.k.a. dendroica) liked this
It seems that "Aunt Irma" is about to come to town.
- Lo is not learning
Ouch.
- John (a.k.a. dendroica)
breathe deep
- VAL D. Zone
now let it out..........
- VAL D. Zone
Okay, breathing and so far have not exploded. Three more hours!
- Lo is not learning
There should be a venting room on FF (if it isn't already). I know there is something called Bitchfest, but I'm not sure that covers it all.
- Eivind
Oh, I thought this was a venting room :)
- Lo is not learning
I can see where you got that impression :-P
- Eivind
There's a "hide" button on all my posts for a reason. Sweet atheist nothing, I am considering meds to alter my hormones, b/c this is ridiculous.
- Lo is not learning
I love you, Lo, and don't mind your posts at all. I'm just helping you get rid of some of that aggression.
- Eivind
Don't worry, while my angst is intense and radiates outward generally in all directions, it's not particularly directed at you! :) You hit the nail on the head, though, it's crystal clear that I need a much better outlet for intense feelings (anger, sadness, and more). I'm grasping at straws, running seems to help but I'm not in good enough shape yet to run as long as I'm angry. Venting...
more...
- Lo is not learning
The good news is, I made it. Just 15 more minutes and even if I can't go home, at least everyone else will leave. Huzzah!
- Lo is not learning
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