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More arrogance from Twitter. "Normal people," huh? Here's why what @ev said is stupid: - http://www.techcrunch.com/2009...

March 4, 2009 from Bookmarklet - Comment - Like - Share

Rod Stewart, Rodney Rumford, Rob Schieber and 92 other people liked this

Saying "normal people" will be on the service in five years is stupid. Why? Because it's calling current customers who are on the service "not normal." I find I'm hearing more and more arrogance toward Twitter's existing user base from its management. That arrogance is stupid. Facebook already has normal people, as Ev puts it, and is far more "sticky" than Twitter is. Twitter is actually becoming harder to follow as more "normal users" come on the service. - Robert Scoble from Bookmarklet

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Here's a tweet on my screen right now: "Back from the Quizno's breakfast run." Is that really more interesting to follow than photos and videos from your closest friends, which is what my wife shows me every night on facebook? No way. And friendfeed has better noise filtering mechanisms than Twitter does BY FAR. - Robert Scoble

For months now I have felt that twitter should be run be more involved users of the service rather than Ev. I'm happy to see that you too feel this way. It makes me feel less prejudical about the subject at hand. - Richard A.

"Normal people" will soon figure out that Twitter isn't all that great. Already I'm seeing engagement go down on twitter. As I go around startups I'm seeing more and more addicted people who are trying to escape from Twitter because watching Tweetdeck all day long keeps them from getting anything done. - Robert Scoble

I'm not sure that I would see that statement as arrogant. The fact that you say more "normal" people are already on Facebook kind of illustrates the fact that Twitter is not in the norm...yet. It's steadily rising to that position, but the truth is, at least from my meager perspective, Twitter is full of those who are NOT in the norm. - Carlton Hackett

One thing I'm hearing from a lot of users is that they don't feel like there's a real community on Twitter. Here I really feel there are people I know. Mona, for instance. Or Louis Gray. Plus the employees of friendfeed are ALWAYS here. That's something that I never felt from Twitter's founders/employees. Go read @ev -- is he doing anything to build a community? No, he's always on Charlie Rose or at TED bragging about how many users he has. That will backfire. - Robert Scoble

I'm normal, and I was on Twitter early on, 2 years ago or so. I don't see what all the fuss is about tho Robert. Just unfollow the Quizno breakfast guy and find a less noisy one. FF isn't stick to me because there's too many accordion folds of comments to follow. Twitter plus Search key word is enough. - Prokofy Neva

I believe that by saying "normal" he means people that are not early adopters, and if that happen and Twitter becomes more crowded, are you going to stop using Twitter? - Ahmed

Carlton: I don't agree and I agree at the same time. That's the problem with using terms like "normal." There is no "normal" in human beings. That term is arrogant. - Robert Scoble

Prokofy: find me a single Twitter user who isn't noisy some of the time. I've looked. Even TimOreilly is noisy some of the time. - Robert Scoble

Ahmed: early adopters have already moved to other services. They are on Twitter less and less. - Robert Scoble

Jim: late adopters don't engage. Sorry, but they don't. At least not at the level that early adopters do. Want to prove this to yourself? Go look at the followers that @ev has. Look at how many Tweets they make. Most have zero!!! Now compare to my followers. Almost every one of my followers has many many Tweets. Especially when you compare to @ev's (Ev is a recommended Twitterer so he's getting a LOT more "recent" Twitterers). - Robert Scoble

Well I think that he meant "normal" like in "mainstream", which I, for one, find elitist too, because imho: Being an early adopter doesn't mean you're smarter enough to use a product. Or smarter than others that don't use it yet. http://friendfeed.com/e... - directeur

directeur: exactly. - Robert Scoble

Robert this is so true! Facebook and Twitter get worse when more people join. I also love the noise filters on Friendfeed. But above all I love it that they don't force their users to use this or that site or services. This is great while I am slowly removing myself from twitter. - Bart LePoole

"Normal" people will not use Twitter anymore, if their support can't/doesn't want to answer to a "normal" help request. Mine, after more than one month, is not assigned to an operator yet (my timeline is empty!). Perhaps because I am not a V.I.P: I have seen tweets by "non-normal" twitterers about similar problems, fixed in few hours... - PaperDoll

To prove the engagement point, visit http://twitter.com/ev... -- click on 100 followers. Almost all have no tweets. Most have no photos. Now visit http://twitter.com/scoblei... and compare. Late adopters, er, "normal people" are lame. I don't wish ANY service gets those! - Robert Scoble

I think there is something missing in the early adopter/follower conversation (not going to touch "normal") which is am examination of the world of twitter from inside the perspective of the social media in-crowd, vs. that of digitally engaged folks at large. An examination of this dynamic and what it means would be particularly fruitful, as in the end, the success or failure of Twitter for 1,500 social media experts is one thing, and adoption by a significant slice of the population at large is another. - Robert Davis

"normal" can also mean...not having superpowers gang. "normal" is a reference to people without extraordinary technical knowhow...and they are 80% of the population... so in anyone's definition normal that would be. In fact by "normal" he means "less than"... meaning people who have less than tech savvy...oy c'mon people don't be so sensitive. - davidlee

Ryo: "normal" people that @ev is attracting are people who do not participate and who have vapid tweet streams. Is that who Twitter is going to build a business around? Really? - Robert Scoble

I didn't experience this the same way. What you took to mean that Ev was saying we were stupid, I just took as meaning the current Twitterbase is more the early adopters and later it will be more mainstream. And yeah, it is harder to use as more people come on board, which is why filtering apps like TweetDeck are becoming critical for anyone following more than a hundred or so people. - Lisa Creech Bledsoe

Lisa: and that belief is bullshit. Why would mainstream join in Twitter? Look at Ev's own follower base. That is "mainstream." They do not participate. Now compare to Facebook! I bet that the average time spent on facebook by "normal" people is 100x more than on Twitter. Twitter is going to need engaged users to build a business. - Robert Scoble

Scoble... you are just mad that Twitter is gonna take off and leave FreindFeed in the dust. :) You put your chips on FriendFeed and it's a bet you are losing... it's okay... you just have to get your head around the fact that when it comes to websites you (and most of your thousands of followers) are not "normal". And you have got to stop being so sensitive about being called out as the exception rather than the rule. Time to face the facts: we are not "normal people". :) - Matt Shaulis

Robert: What services would you say the early adopters have moved onto? And I agree with you that the people that will sign up now as Twitter hits "mainstream" are more apt to tweet much less, if at all. They will sign up to see what the fuss is about and fall off the radar quickly. - Jason Kane

Ev has no idea what twitter is about. None of those at twitter really understand how twitter is used, and how strong it is. Best example is SMS in Europe and how they removed that. - Richard A.

i have been known to say Facebook is for civilians. does that make me evil? twitter was initially used by geeks, not "normal people". Robert- you, for example, are clearly not "normal". think about the terms like a graph- a normal distribution..... twitter isn't normal in terms of adoption yet. far from it. we're still living in the future. - James

Maybe it depends on your community, where I live facebook is now mainstream, twitter is not yet. I do think that twitter will become 'mainstream' though, the main advantage being the ease of use. Maybe some of the 'mainstream' users will tweet less, but there are many different ways to use Twitter as a tool (none more right or wrong than others) and one of those is to receive information, which does not require a profile pic or posting tweets. - Angela

Angela; twitter can't become mainstream until the technology is ready (mobile wise) and ideologicaly, when people don't feel sitting at a computer is geeky. - Richard A.

I hardly think EV's statements are arrogant. I actually think it's pretty accurate. Current Twitter users aren't "normal" they are internet savvy, early adopters, and people that have a general interest in being public. It isn't a slant towards the user base. It isn't a slant towards people who don't use it either. To me, it seems your statements are just shamelessly plugging friend feed. However, there are some substantial differences between Twitter and FriendFeed to market before the offensive. - Eric Moretti

about what @ev said...twitter existence, 5 years from now sounds very pretentious for me. People still has a sense of time very last century, they think things change every 50 years. - Sarah

Eric: that was true a year ago. It no longer is true. Twitter is being talked about on CNN and BBC many times a day some days. The user base is WILDLY switching. Go to @ev's follower list to see how. Really really bad trends for Twitter are there. No engagement. Vapid tweets. Focus on celebrity or getting on TV. Not on discussing ideas. Those are NOT good trends! - Robert Scoble

3 'normal' people asked me what Twitter was today. I explained the history and the application of it. The response was, and I quote, "Oh, that's intresting. So it's like SMS. Why would I want hundreds of SMS's". 'Normals' will come, realize how useless it is, and never come back... - Johnny

Johnny: bingo! - Robert Scoble

The antonyms of normal are peculiar, abnormal and deviant. I don't find it that arrogant but it is a word that should be used carefully in any context when describing people. - M F

Wildly switching to what? Vapid tweets/comments/profiles etc are going to exist across all social networking outlets. I think what we are seeing now is a steep curve to ambiguous use by all of them, some will fall from grace as media darlings (MySpace) will others will see a drop in user base, but maintain a substantial following (Facebook). To me social networking is still in its infancy so it's hard to make any assumption of what will fail and what will succeed. - Eric Moretti

Eric: Myspace is popular though, for music lovers. Hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, use it to find lot's of music. It's just part of a sub-culture rather than mainstream. Means the user base is more engaged as a result. - Richard A.

Eric: you are missing what goes on here on friendfeed. Here we have a way to hide noise and accentuate the signal through liking and commenting. On Twitter you do not have those mechanisms. Clicking "like" for instance does a TON behind the scenes and makes that much more searchable, for instance. It also shows that item to all your followers. Which makes it more likely everyone in the system sees some signal instead of vapid tweets flowing by. - Robert Scoble

Richard: hundreds of millions of people use MySpace. But that service is stagnating. Other music discovery services, particularly on facebook, are starting to eat away at its dominance. - Robert Scoble

@Rich: This might be true. I personally can't stand MySpace. Too messy in terms of advertisements and user controlled pages. It gives me a headache, which is why I think the general public over 30 won't stick with it. - Eric Moretti

Twitter is the Post-It-Note, FriendFeed is the Memo Envelope... I scribble things down on Twitter, I get stuff done here. - Johnny

I enjoy the analogy :) but FF is more then a Memo Envolpe - abdellah

Robert, Twitter is going to turn into the myspace of microblogging. By that I mean that myspace has one purpose whereas facebook has many. People jumped to FB as a result. We'll find the same with Friendfeed, once it gets easier to use. It offers more value to the user. - Richard A.

I agree... But since it's midnight here, my analogy generator is defragging :) - Johnny

Richard: bing! - Robert Scoble

oh it is still working, what could it generate for the facebook case :) - abdellah

Robert: Well, hey give me time, I just joined. I'm not arguing Twitter vs. FriendFeed. I think the comment was more directed being over reactionary. For the record, I like it, but working full time, school full time leaves very little time. Does Friend Feed have an Android App? - Eric Moretti

Depends on what he meant by 'normal people' - Moses Kpetigo

Eric, on Android just use http://fftogo.com/ - Bruce Lewis from fftogo

But am I a normal person or just stupid to want a direct message feature in friendfeed? - Bart LePoole

Anyone who really knows me (not those who just know me through Twitter) will agree that I am not normal. I guess if it was possible they would describe me as "clinically" not normal. Perhaps what the issue is too many people, many of those I follow, are just using Twitter to market their goods, website or new shows.I don't particularly find people who do this "engaging" .The good news is that the unfollow button is easy to find. - Keith James Designs

Bart: stupid. You already have direct messaging in friendfeed. It's called Gmail. (Seriously: the worst feature of Twitter is DM'ing. It's a horrid feature. I wish it had never been implemented). - Robert Scoble

no you aren't, but what make me in trouble is the fact that there is so many way to be in a direct relation with some one :) comment like and damn there is email too :) - abdellah

Robert: DM is stupid, I will give you that. Why limit a DM to 140 characters? Moreover, the people who I would actually DM, I have their email address. - Eric Moretti

Damian: good point. Facebook is five years old. They got 175 million users already and are growing 700,000 every day. Facebook is the Silicon Valley success story of the year. - Robert Scoble

I've always thought that 'normal' people, when talked about in these terms, are people who aren't like you. Everyone thinks they are a little different, so normals are everyone else - Rachel Clarke

Robert my desire for DM is to keep one conversation thread and not to have to move to another platform. I want one conversation bundled as one conversation. This you have pointed out is one of those great features of FF. - Bart LePoole

Robert, thanks to you, I'll never strive to be "normal" again :) - MiaD

There is a big push to get these services "mainstream". And maybe Ev was tired of saying the word mainstream over and over, so "normal" fit the bill. :-) - Louis Gray

Robert, I'm not a twitter-fan but I'm not sure you're right. I believe you should follow less people on twitter than you follow here on FF or on Facebook, just because you have less filter tools on Twitter, and because you should be interested in what your friends are doing, not anybody wherever he is. And that's what "normal" people would do, if they ever get there. - Markingegno - Donato

Perhaps a poor choice of words, but valid point that the masses (normal people) have not yet latched onto Twitter. - David Lanning

By the time "normal" people figure out Twitter, the rest of us will be onto something else. - The Way Things Are

I signed up for twitter a week ago and I still don't see any reason why I'd use it for anything that facebook or friendfeed don't already provide me in a way that's much easier to use. It really seems like facebook status updates that don't have comment threads. So, I feel like I'm missing the whole point of twitter. - Steve Koch

Plus: I hate birds. - Steve Koch

one makes the world "idiot" proof and then the world will make a better idiot !! If your not living life on the fringe or the edge, then you are taking too much room on the this planet :)- - Peter Dawson

@scoble: thanks for starting this thread. I thought @bart's comment was the best line here: "...Facebook and Twitter get worse when more people join..." Ironically, those are exactly the conditions FB and TT need in order to become viable businesses... but from a user experience pov, it's a race to the bottom as more people get on. <sigh> - .LAG liked that

Twitter isn't built for 'normal' people. All my real friends hate me because I refuse to add them... but I talk to them via IM. I don't need to know if they bought a new pair of shoes or if they're sick - AGAIN. What I don't understand is why Twitter gets as much fuss and attention as it does. - Mona Nomura

@scoble I really think you are blowing the word "normal" out of proportion. He's clearly referring to non-early adopters. Goes back to the common "my parents" metaphor all consumer internet folks refer to. It's flawed, but quite pervasive. - Clay Newton

@Mona: +200! Seriously, Twitter wins for most over hyped site. I frankly contribute to that through stomping around about how much attention it gets for so little added value. The sands are shifting under Twitter and I'm not sure they get that. People are on overload, they're shifting to trusted networks. And Twitter is now overflowing with affiliate, spam and black hat SEO. Not a peep (or chirp) out of Twitter on how they're dealing with that and the very quick backlash it will likely get from users. - AJ Kohn

Jason - that doesn't really describe why it's getting buzz. What a lot of the Twitter early adopters (I wasn't) were saying about the usefulness and versatility of Twitter has finally been recognized by...uh..."normal people". Well, as normal as Shaq and Jimmy Fallon and Karl Rove are. - Hutch Carpenter

Shouldn't it get recognized once it is finally stable (FailWhale after it was mentioned on The View by Barbara Walters? Still?) and monetizing? What kind of standard does this set for start-ups across the board? - Mona Nomura

2.0 is to Twitter and 1.0 is to Pets.com ???? - AJ Kohn

Mona - monetization is not something the average user obsesses about. You think the news guys that are getting on Twitter spend a lot of time worrying about that? Fail Whale is an issue, it nearly brought the service to its knees last year. It's better, but needs improvement still. - Hutch Carpenter

Robert, I'm advising for a company that is doing an amazing alternative for Twitter, targeted just at Moms. I'd love to give you and Maryam a demo some time. (I think Maryam would really love it). I'll e-mail you some more details shortly if you're interested. - Jesse Stay

Oh, perhaps I was misunderstood. Why is this service (Twitter) garnering as much attention as it does when there is no guarantee it would even last? It just heightens its worth for a buy-out. What kind of standard is this setting for products and services moving forward? - Mona Nomura

@scoble I think this is totally blown out of proportion. He clearly meant, "not tech obsessed" or cutting-edge. Like Clay said, he meant people like my parents. My only disagreement is that it'll take 5 years -- it's already happening. Of course, how long people stay or use the service is always the big question, but people who aren't plugged in (like my sister) are already trying it out. - Christina Warren

Mona - YouTube - Hutch Carpenter

Here's what I don't get - why would anyone keep working there? With all the new financing they've been getting, normal employee stock has got to be mostly diluted at the moment. I wonder if they realize that. It's no longer worth working there as a "startup environment". - Jesse Stay

Hutch - Indeed. As well as many others. But seriously, is Twitter *that* useful? - Mona Nomura

Mona - I think it is, because of its relative simplicity. Ultimately, of course, "useful" is a market call. Right now, the market says "yes". - Hutch Carpenter

I just think it's a good example of how not everybody was meant to do press junkets and interviews with Charlie Rose. Time to invest in a PR person - Dave Powell from twhirl

Robert, do you think the language is a call back to the days when developers used the terminology "dumb user"? It seems that way to me as well..just the "lite" version of the arrogance that sadly has been endemic in developer culture since at least when I came on board in the late 90's. I'm even ashamed to admit that our university allowed instructors to use this "geek-speak" in the classroom as part of the curriculum. Esoterica often provides its own set of "ear-muffs" to its users. - Melanie Reed

I think we contribute greatly to the market saying it is useful, by hyping up a service that is still missing many rudimentary features. I truly don't see why Twitter is a great marketing tool. Supplementary, yes but it certainly doesn't deserve all the attention it gets as a service since it's the people on Twitter, not the tool itself that makes it 'useful'. - Mona Nomura

@Mona is on fire. + 1MM. - AJ Kohn

Mona - I hear the argument about how easy Twitter is to build, nothing special to it. The *concept* was special. The early adoption was critical. The community is the barrier to entry. Twitter hit 'escape velocity' while others failed to do so. - Hutch Carpenter

Matthew - I don't see the correlation. Interstates are a necessity. Twitter isn't. And Aaron? The mainstream is bigger than Twitter AND FriendFeed. - Mona Nomura

I thought by not being into sports I would get out of this my ___ is better than yours thing. Guess not. - Stephan Miller from Friend Deck

Evan Williams says "normal people" and the ones who are offended are the geeks on the social networks. I rest my case. - Shawn Farner

@Aaron: I use Rogers' Diffusion of Innovation. - AJ Kohn

I always love the Twitter bashing on FF...especially from Scoble. We all know that 'normal' is mainstream and we also know that most of us are far from mainstream. Twitter is entering that sphere and as many people that think Twitter is useless there will be 2 more saying, 'Whoa! this is cool'. I'm far from a tech guru and love being able to keep in touch with friends and family via Twitter and SMS. It is the broadcast aspect that beats out plain old SMS. - Sidney

Shawn - maybe that's why I call my blog "I'm not actually a geek". :-p - Hutch Carpenter

Why be normal? - Thomas Hawk

It's like Pepsi or Coke. Preferences only. And people start a war. I don't care unless I own the company, lol. But I guess it's a good time waster. - Stephan Miller from Friend Deck

Nonsense? Blasphemy Aaron! There is nothing more important than discussing services and measurements that clearly have no resolute answers!! ;) - Mona Nomura

Mona - that's why I tend to be market-oriented in a lot of my opinions. Probably the closest approximation of the "answer". - Hutch Carpenter

Hutch - indeed. Only time will tell. @Matthew - I still do not see the correlation with Interstates to Twitter. But it's me, not you. :) - Mona Nomura

FF is futureproof. FF acknowledges that other services exist and encourages you to not be centralized. FF provides a platform for integration. Twitter wants you to use only twitter. This is what causes vapid content on twitter, it offers nothing, and doesn't have the potential to offer anything other than what you see in front of you. Twitter is a talking platform, FF is an integration... more... - Andy Bakun

I agree with Andy, except to say, perhaps FF will go away (noooo!), but something that does the same thing should rise to take its place if that happens. - Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)

Andy's right. - Thomas Hawk

@Andy I would disagree to a point. It would be rude of me to walk up to a group of people and go, "I'm heading to the movies" and walking away. They'd expect me to sit around and wait for a comment from them. With Twitter I can say it and be gone. If someone wants to comment they can and I can get said comment on the go. Phone, generally one on one. Email, you can broadcast but again, no sms integration which is vital to reach people mobile. not everyone has email on their phone. Twitter does it all - Sidney

agree w/ thomas - andy nailed it, exactly my pov too :) - mike "glemak" dunn

Arent all humans noisy?? Prokofy: find me a single Twitter user who isn't noisy some of the time. I've looked. Even TimOreilly is noisy some of the time." Scoble???? - Francisco Kemeny

The reason why Twitter works is because of the number of people who use it. Yesterday I was having issues with Better Gmail 2, I did a quick twitter search and realized other people are having the same issue at the same time, I replied to them and we talked about it. Can't do that on Google or FriendFeed. I love FF but bottom line is most people I follow on twitter are not on FF, so I have to manually enter these people as imaginary friends to filter the twitter noise - this is a pain. - Kelly Johns

Robert: I am completely amazed by the way people use Twitter and I think the possibilities are endless. I just hope these boys at Twitter don't invest all their time and money trying to make this all about celebrities. Cause then it becomes very lame. - PC Easy from twhirl

I was helping somebody set up a new Twitter account today and noticed that during the sign up process they bring up a list of recommended people on Twitter to follow with the check marks already highlighted so you have to actually uncheck them to not follow them. Among various brands such as Dell the number 2 recommendation was a blogger, @dooce. Some of her tweets are very explicit. She refers to herself on her blog as a Sh*t A** H* M*****r F*****r (dooce.com). Interesting pick for #2 - Mike Elliott

Another thing to consider is how twitter could change their feature list or UI such that anything new wouldn't seem "bolted on". I don't think they can. If they added the ability to "browse" tweets and show threads (in the right order), something I think it desperately needs, rather than just a list of obviously ephemeral and no longer relevant entries with the most recent at the top,... more... - Andy Bakun

Mike Elliott: +100. Insightful observation. - Robert Scoble

I am new to FF, but I like the context and conversation I can get from FF. Twitter seems masturbatory. - Rick Cogley

Naturally he says normal people. Robert, I hate to break it to you, you are far from normal! I am certainly not normal either. Early adopters are, as a general rule, not the norm. That's fine. - Daniel W. Crompton

I believe both FF and Twitter serve a purpose. FriendFeed, for me, is much like a university library whereas Twitter is much like the university cafeteria. It depends on 'type' of conversation one wants/needs at a particular moment. - ka3drr

lol - no not library, twitter is like the roxbury (full of posers) and friendfeed is like a park outside a library on a sunny spring day (chilling with friends and having interesting conversations) imho of course :) - mike "glemak" dunn

Scoble is wrong on this one, normal people are on email not twitter - imran

Hmmmm, I'm normal, or at least, I THINK I'm normal... I use Twitter to communicate with people I normally wouldn't be able to find with any other means. I use it for information gathering too. And, bouncing ideas off of people. I don't know, I like it, and I am pretty sure that I am normal. I use Facebook for my real life friends and family, and that's it. Facebook I have locked down, so I can be more at ease there. - Danielle Closs

My mom is on twitter - she's pretty normal - Antonio Altamirano

this thread with the amount of quality comments back and forth illustrates the viability of FF as a great medium for debate! IMO: As busy as Mr. Scoble is, he should get mad props for starting and maintaining the discussion. - shayne catrett

This is a nonissue. Evan's point is that like blogging was 5 years ago, twitter today seems a little offputting. To technological optimists, twitter will always be awesome, but to joe sixpack (or joe-who-has-no-blog) it may be sometime before twitter does not incite: "Well who the hell would want to know what I'm doing all the time?" The idea of 'normal' does cannot be so quickly reversed into "Evan just called me a freak." Grow up. - Daniel Morgan

Guess I was not so stupid after all... Friendfeed implements DM ! - Bart LePoole

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