"It's looking to be a good install. Since I activated this AM, 225 attempts caught. No spam got through yet...
We'll see, if this doesn't solve the problem I may move back to Textpattern." - Jason Dettbarn
"Sorry about that, Marge. I've changed the commenting system to the one I use on my blog. Have gotten a bunch of 'site ate my comments' complaints over the last few months. Hopefully this helps." - Jason Dettbarn
"OK, so maybe the points were valid for the 5% of small business owners (or what ever extreme minority it is) that it applies to, but why keep on this 'Joe the Plumber' guy if his story isn't true? Two dozen times. McCain dug his own grave on this one... Why? Because 'Joe the Plumber''s "story" is more compelling than saying a (wealthy) small percentage of you will have your taxes go up under Obama's plan. That doesn't sell the issue to the majority of middle class (or 90-something percent who will get a tax cut under Obama) viewers... but "hey, if you work hard and get to a point where you can become an entrepreneur, you are going to be penalized for your hard work." does (or at least more so)... why not come out and say that, instead of keeping on this fake life story? Or, how about this... even easier: find a guy (or gal) that it really applies to and make them the centerpiece of your debate? That would have been too easy, huh? To me, it just seems as if the McCain campaign has..." - Jason Dettbarn
"Sour grapes, you're right... but it's the McSame campaign saying "I'm taking my ball and going home," because they don't like their VP being vetted in public. Saw a recent poll -- over 65% of Americans have no clue about Palin's past performance, her credentials as a 'reformer', or the scandals she is involved in... but almost 70% know about her daughter's pregnancy. Are those the kind of priorities Repubs value? The tabloid, half truth, spin-it-to-death stories? It sure seems like those are the ones they are pushing, because they have no where to stand on the real issues. I mean, what excites you about McCain? If you make under $250k per year, you'll get a better tax break; some kind of universal health care; more focus on the environment and alternative, renewable energies; focus on actually improving education (rather than a policy with a snappy name that doesn't do anything, like Bush); someone who actually understands the constitution and defends it; and someone who acknowledges..." - Jason Dettbarn
Dave - what's going on here: the neocons have long plotted to establish American military bases in the Mideast -- not just Iraq -- for virtually forever. They were never interested in merely winning a conventional victory in Iraq. Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are also on their target list. Their deceptive public rhetoric is completely disjunct from their internal writings, which expose the real agenda. - Sean McBride
And: I've read a large mountain of their internal writings -- I think I have a handle on them. - Sean McBride
And: the target list of the neocons often seems to be unlimited, and includes China, Russia, Europe and traditional liberals and conservatives in the United States. We are looking here at a messianic and totalitarian cult, not a traditional American political movement of any kind. The cult dimension of neoconservatism explains why the neocons are so cozy with Christian Armageddonists like John Hagee. - Sean McBride
When the NYTimes rejected McCain's OpEd piece, one of the reasons they gave is that he wrote that the US needed to win, but never defined winning. The advocates of this war have been cagey, slippery, and ultimately deceptive about defining the win. Occasionally, it peeks through. For the neocons, winning is staying. For the rest of us winning is leaving. - Michael Markman
Michael: for the neocons, "winning" means crushing more than one billion Muslims worldwide -- it's a message that comes through loud and clear in their internal writings. Crushing Islam globally also means crushing any Europeans and Americans who get in the way of their holy crusade -- thus their perpetual barrage of hate speech against traditional liberals and conservatives in both America and Europe, and their relentless efforts to develop a police state culture domestically. McCain has put himself and his reputation at the disposal of this cult. - Sean McBride
James Joyner relies on an official Bush speech to define the supposed and deceptive objectives of the Iraq War, rather than on the internal documents within the neoconservative community which define their real strategic plan and agenda. It barely scratches the surface of the issue. By the way, Iraq was not involved in 9/11 (as the neocons claimed), possessed no WMDs (as the neocons claimed), and was never involved in terrorism against Americans. The chief effect of the war has been to greatly increase the power of Iran and Muslim fundamentalists in the region. - Sean McBride
On the real objectives of neocons in Iraq and the Mideast: Read the writings of Benjamin Netanyahu, Daniel Pipes, David Frum, David Horowitz, David Wurmser, Dore Gold, Douglas Feith, John Podhoretz, Joshua Muravchik, Mark Steyn, Michael Ledeen, Norman Podhoretz, Pamela Geller, Richard Perle, William Kristol, etc. Joyner referenced none of these authors in his analysis. They were the chief architects of the Iraq War. - Sean McBride
"There is no such thing as winning an occupation. You either continue to occupy or withdraw. It's semantic nonsense to apply the verb "win" to the noun "occupation."" exactly! now lets take this even further. how about holding the people responsible behind this unjust war? http://www.prosecutionofbush.c... let's take the Iraq War debate back into first principles. - ~C4Chaos
Chaos: defenders of the war, because they are running a con game and are disingenous in their public statements about their real objectives, want to circumscribe and narrow our vision of the big picture in discussing the war -- that's how all con games work. There is no conceivable way we can "win" the war in Iraq, based on a rational cost/benefit analysis. We have already suffered an enormous loss in Iraq, based on squandered wealth, resources and reputation -- trillions of dollars down the drain with the effect of enhancing the power of Iran and Muslim fundamentalists. - Sean McBride
@Sean McBride: "circumscribe and narrow our vision of the big picture in discussing the war -- that's how all con games work." exactly. the sad thing is that the mainstream media (or at least the powerful people that run them) seem to be heavily influenced by these con games too. that said, i hope Obama would stick it to Bush/McCain when it comes to debating the Iraq war by taking it back to first principles. Bugliosi is right. there are lots of talk but he's someone *doing* something about it. - ~C4Chaos
at every stage of our two boys lives my wife and i have commented "that'll be one for their therapist" whenever we've done something that tormented or traumatized them - usually its us embarrassing them in some way - nice to see that someone is helping this along w/ these cool products ;) - mike "glemak" dunn
i actually like the baby burger idea -- comfortable, secure, etc -- the third photo not so much.. - Cee Bee
The child on the left may grow up to be a vegetarian... - Abby Martin
Congratulations... What's with all the cute baby pics today, my wife things I'm up to no good when I keep turning the monitor off. I've got 3, I can't let her get all broody - Chris Wright
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I'm guessing not - with two words "US" "only"... As I say, I'm guessing, but just take a look at the difference between what's available to US Xbox users on Video Marketplace vs. what UK/European users get. When iTunes started doing movie rentals in the UK, their catalogue blew the longer established XBVM away overnight. (I'm not aiming my criticism at MS or Netflix - I realise there are licensing implications; I'm simply pointing out that there is an audience on this side of the Atlantic just gagging for a large, *legitimate* content library; Netflix/XB have a long way to go before they can dominate Apple TV - and it's all down to content availability) - Andrew Terry
McCain's people think that a) nobody will bother to look this shit up or b) even if they do it will not backfire to essentially say McCain has become the kind of man he's always hated. Man, why would anyone want this job....oh, that's right...the power to destroy the earth. - Patrick Berry
Boo...No Sarah Perez or Corvida. But congrats to the ones I do follow: Veronica Belmont, Gina Trapani, Emily Chang, Leah Culver, & Justine Ezarik. - Mark Krynsky
There's always a few missing on these lists (especially niche bloggers including the above ... Ann Smarty, and Shana Albert) but this is an incredibly good list (with descriptions). Well worth exploring! - Charlie Anzman
Ditto Mark, plus congrats to our Tamar, and Amber MacArthur as well (fan of her stuff as well) - finally a list of females in tech and blogging that doesn't involve "sexiest" or "nakedest." - Mark "Rizzn" Hopkins
No Natali Del Conte either. Seems more like a "Female Bloggers Influential To Other Females" list. Not so much a list of bloggers that have appeal to men and women, except for some like Gina, Veronica, Cali, etc. - Jim Bergman
Well Female bloggers usually gets 'popularity' faster...but nice list. - Saad Kamal
This reminds me that had I not given up on the first blog I started back in 98, maybe I'd be on this list. But I don't have the drive and passion these very worthy women have! Congrats to you, Veronica and all on the list! More importantly, keep doing what you do, because it is important and valuable. - Shawna Benson
What an impressive list! Quite a few I follow already, but nice to have some more to check out. - Sally Church
ok which one s/we get Playboy to cover ? Remember TC's post of late ? - Peter Dawson
Why does there have to be a separate list for most influential male/female bloggers? Why not just a list for the 50 or 100 most influential bloggers? Why the gender distinction? - Michael Tefft
After posting about the bikinibloggers of Urlesque & the wish for naked bloggers of Playboy at http://www.aboutblank.nl it was worthwile to pay some attention to influential female bloggers. Really influential, I'm talking about. But why do all these American sites pay so much atttention female bloggers, I wonder. So sudden, I mean. - Ton Zijp
whole story is suspect due to claim that blogging pair coined term "fugly" - WTF! :-) - Deva Hazarika
What does it have to do with America, Ton Zijp? - Andy DeSoto
Andy, just that the attention is there so suddenly, in such a way that they all make a list (20 bloggers Urlesque wants to see in bikini, 9 Playboy wants to see naked, 50 really influential according to N x E). I follow news about weblogs worldwide, I publish about it daily, so for me it's really surprising that in just a few days all these sites are concentrating at female bloggers. I don't take conclusions on that, but it really surprises me. July = bikinimonth? Like Urlesque said? - Ton Zijp
I know a few, and have a few others in my rss reader. But this blog post is screaming for an OPML. - Laura Scott
via Alert Thingy
The term fugly is as old as beauty (or lack there of) it's self. - Brian Norwood
nice resource, re: formatteddad's comment- as long as there is no bias or exclussion. anything that brings more voices to the conversation- the better! sometimes we need to identify the voices that might not be getting the BIG exposure. - Nice Fish Films
perl helped me to dump a quick opml of the blogs. i won't host it myself. instead this link gives you a netvibes startpage where you can read the blogs and export them to opml: http://is.gd/QH7 - now i'm busy reading. - igor
Save the waterboarding for Cheney, Woo, Rummy, etc. - Michael Markman
lol... that would be fab, him rove and condi, nice orange jumpsuits ... but that is only for totalitarian states, lose and election, go to jail ... could it be coming to a counry near you? - Gregory Lent
If we could still stone people to death, that would be better. - The Kid
"The truck driver told police they weren’t “dealing with normal cows.” They made their escape after pushing a release button.“He said that they were smart cows and they must have been planning this for a while,” Suitor said. The two cows remained on the lam late Wednesday night." -- Cheers to my Dad who sent me this breaking news from back home. - Christopher Sacca
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america needs more chaos before enough energy for change gets created, obama is our man for that - Gregory Lent
you're joking, of course - however don't be surprised if you're contacted by secret service for this "threat"... :-) - Andy Green
Anyone who has seen the content of the unwarranted wiretaps has fully supported them.... not saying that makes it right but it does make them necessary. - Aaron deMello
Aaron -- can you document your statement about the content of unwarranted wiretaps? - Sean McBride
Nothing makes them "necessary". What's happening now is exactly the type of oppression the sons of liberty revolted against. - Adam Turetzky
Even if _everyone_ "supported" the wiretaps based on the content, Aaron...the point is that it's not good enough. We have laws. - Ken Kennedy
@Sean McBride - the tricky part is getting into specifics, which I can't. I am in the surveillance biz (or was, rather) and the ugly aspect for law enforcement is that the 'bad guys' (for lack of a better term) are better armed - with PGP, HushMail, stenography, casual SecondLife or Habbo meetups, etc. Makes it almost impossible to trace their convos. For all the $ in the world I would not want the job of an analyst following up on a FISA warrant. - Aaron deMello
@Ken Kennedy - great name, btw - I agree in principle but data is like fishing - you catch it when its there in front of you, or you kiss it goodbye. The sons of liberty have a very hard time trying to find the balance between protecting our rights and exploiting technology for their goals - which protect our way of life. The FISA laws worked well in the past but today - rest assured that the guys we are looking for are far more adept at exploiting the tools than we allow our boys to be. - Aaron deMello
@Aaron...don't take this the wrong way, but spare me. If it's against the law, you kiss it goodbye. You and I both know that the FISA law as (it was at the time) written allows for "catching it when it's there"...it's just more of a pain. It's DESIGNED to be a pain. We're not /supposed/ to be spying on people without warrants. Once upon a time, we (rightly) condemned other countries for doing this. *sigh* - Ken Kennedy
And please, no movie plots. kthx. *grin* And thanks for chatting, btw. Seriously. We need to have these discussions out in the open; it's important for our society. - Ken Kennedy
@Ken Kennedy - sure, they are designed to be a pain. I just don't think its fair that we have to play the very same game under extremely different rules. Should our lofty ideals be preserved in the name of security? That is the question that will be debated for the next few generations but personally I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those charged with tackling the problem, rather than us - the peanut gallery. - Aaron deMello
@Aaron...you laid that out rather well, thanks. And we disagree (which is ok) on alot. *grin* Probably the most important difference to me is actually at the end there; the peanut gallery comment. We're not the peanut gallery, Aaron...we are where those "charged with tackling the problem" derive their power from. This is no divine right monarchy; we're a cantankerous republic where the people ultimately run the show. Good questions, though! - Ken Kennedy
OMG, what a dumb-ass thing to do for a seasoned media guy like Jesse. FAIL! - John McCrea
If it was a Republican folks woudl be screaming racism. Apparently Jesse gets a pass. - Soulhuntre
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Had a flash on Obama and FISA. When he's elected Pres he uses FISA authority to legally eavesdrop on George Dubya Bush without court oversight, Private Citizen and ex-president, and leaks the juiciest bits to Olbermann. Puts him on the terror watch list, and while you're at it puts him in Guantanamo. Gives paparzzi full access. - Dave Winer
@Ken Kennedy - agreed. I believe in the end, perhaps not the means. - Aaron deMello
Aaron: How many terrorists have been convicted of terrorist activities in the United States as the result of warrantless wiretapping? How many cases against alleged terrorists have fallen part? How many times have neoconservatives accused their political opponents of being "terrorists"? How many despotic and state terrorist regimes throughout history have used the threat of "terrorism" to acquire and protect their power? So many interesting questions on this issue. - Sean McBride
@Sean - all those are very interesting questions and there are many more. My sentiment is that we are severely outclassed in the war on terror given all the legal restrictions that are not shared by the enemy. Even the simple act of getting a warrant to expose the phone calls of a unidentified pre-paid SIM card can be a living nightmare. How can one get a warrant when you don't even know if the subscriber is a suspect? These and other complex issues are the ones facing the intelligence community today. - Aaron deMello
Dave, I owe you an apology. I was sure you had made up that comment about what Jesse Jackson said. I think Jesse just threw himself under the bus. When is the last time he was relevant? - ha3rvey
I thought the fact that Obama voted for the FISA would be indicative that he was already neutered? - Vidar Andersen
Aaron: history proves that the most dangerous terrorists in the world are state terrorists, like the Nazi, Stalinist and Maoist regimes, which collectively murdered more than 100 million people in the 20th century. State terrorists typically define all their political opponents as "terrorists," and then proceed to spy on them, torture them and murder them without any legal restraints. The values of the neoconservatives who have dominated the Bush administration are directly antithetical to those of the visionaries who created the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. - Sean McBride
Aaron: If I don't break into your house to find the dismembered bodies, how can I prove that you're an axe murderer? - David Worrell
Dave, Obama's vot eon FISA was simply a political consideration. Need to get him elected, then fix the FISA problem. - ron k jeffries
Aaron: focusing on the first question: to the best of my knowledge, no one has been convicted of being a terrorist or being involved in terrorist activities as a result of warrantless wiretapping. Do you agree? I don't think it's worth trashing the Constitution and Bill of Rights to promote police state methods that were pioneered by Stalin and Hitler and that have produced such meager results. - Sean McBride
Ron: Obama's position on FISA demonstrates that he is politically tone deaf and may well not get elected. What made him a viable candidate was the enthusiasm of his base, which he has now destroyed. Most Americans do not support the FISA bill -- it's not even a "center" issue. It's a hard right neoconservative issue. Check out the discussion of this controversy on On Point Radio today <http://tinyurl.com/6crxv6> and especially note the exchanges between Tom Ashbrook and Glenn Greenwald. - Sean McBride
Ron, respectfully: I don't think it's right to 'play politics' with a bill that undercuts the constitutional balance of power itself. I'll still vote for him. But this makes him just another 'lesser evil' to me. - Madsimian
Dave Winer makes an important point: once a police state machine and culture is installed in any government, it will be used by any political faction that acquires control of it to destroy the political opposition. The American Founding Fathers were acutely aware of this problem, and that is why they created the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. Bush 43 and the neocons are perhaps the most anti-American and anti-democratic political movement ever to arise to a position of commanding power in the United States. - Sean McBride
Harvey, he's relevant to the companies he's shaken down for money and donations for percieved abuses. - Jason Shultz
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Sean: we will never know the answer to that question, which is the entire purpose of the warrant-less wire-tapping program. The results of the program were never going to be used as evidence, at least not in a public court. Like I said before, there are always challenges in a democracy where the need to balance public safety with personal privacy becomes a very gray area. As to the effectiveness of the program, this is something else we will never know, since we have no idea how many attacks were prevented. - Aaron deMello
Aaron: any totalitarian dictator anywhere in the world, following in the footsteps of Stalin, Hitler and Mao, could use some of the arguments we have seen here to construct a terrorist police state that is completely unaccountable. Neocons like John Yoo, David Addington and Alberto Gonzales really don't get America and the thinking of the American Founding Fathers, in my opinion. They are paranoid authoritarians by temperament who fear a free and open society which encourages political dissent. - Sean McBride
Sean: Paranoia does play a part in it, and some paranoia can be healthy. At the same time, I'd rather have hawks than doves protecting my freedoms, and will grant them the wiggle room necessary to do what they feel must be done. What did you think of the voting numbers? 69 to 28? - Aaron deMello
Aaron: any political movement which thinks nothing of trashing the Constitution, while labeling its mainstream American political opponents as "terrorists" and "traitors" (yes, the neocons have done this repeatedly -- check out the log of these events on Media Matters for America), is only interested in destroying our freedoms, not protecting them. The neocons are the last people in the world who should be trusted with any control over police state technologies and institutions in the United States. (Are you aware that Nazis rose to power in Germany under the pretext of protecting Germans from "the terrorists"?) - Sean McBride
As has been pointed out to me, it's not the fault of the telcos that Bush and company failed to get the necessary warrants (which they can legally do after the fact). So there's good reason to protect the telcos from civil trials. Remember, it was Bush who broke the law. Don't make this about Obama. He didn't violate the 4th Amendment. That was the President, who's sworn to protect and uphold the Constitution. - phil.gs
Based on the FISA vote, there's nothing to cut. - Michael Markman
The main effect of Lessig's annoying taunt will be to further alienate what was once Obama's base. Lessig just doesn't get it. On the other hand, McCain is such a weak candidate that there is very little Obama could do at this point to lose the election. Word is that the McCain campaign is seriously demoralized. - Sean McBride
Photos are the biggest thing. Facebook is to a large extent a photo sharing site, but their TOS prohibit you from doing anything interesting with the photos -- they're trapped inside FB. - Paul Buchheit
Yes, Mr. Morin. Tear. Down. This. Wall. - MG Siegler
I also want photos to flow into Facebook from other repositories. Display my Flickr photos in Facebook and let people tag them please. - Benjamin Golub
Man with all the hypocrisy, it really stinks in here. - Gavin
does not gov have the same exact motivation for not opening up as facebook? - Fred Grott
@sacca's point is fun, but it's a fact that the gov's data is ours, and debatable that FB's is. Both would be great, but the Gov's should happen yesterday. - Nate Koechley
First, government data is created through taxpayer dollars and since we all kinda have an ownership stake in the gov, we should have access to its data. FB data is FB's, per their TOS. Second, FB has data that is more valuable than other services -- it's a big business decision for them to be more open or not, and imho it's not clear if being more open is worth it to them at this point. Update: I see Nate already said basically the same thing. Anyway..... - Eric Eldon
Unfortunately most government organizations get the lowest-bidding contractors to build their content which usually means lock-in to proprietary data and clunky 'net applications. Just check out some of their intranets. IE6-only VBscript running on 10-year old proprietary multimillion dollar software - Glenn Batuyong
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I've seen a lot of agencies just mirror "what works at other government offices" which tends to perpetuate this cycle of technical stagnation. Some orgs do get the message and it's usually because of some introduction of Web 2.0 technology into certain facets. However, it needs to be internally evangelized and pushed up the ladder to the decision-making personnel (who usually don't understand the need). - Glenn Batuyong
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Bumping my follow up Twitter comment to FriendFeed comments: Back to my comment on the government. Wouldn't it be awesome to get updates on new laws and programs through the various social feeds? My thoughts on this come from the new cellular phone law in California. I think many people are probably finding out about this for the first time by seeing the blinking signs above the highway. It would be amazing if a notification for a new law came in through twitter, or friendfeed, or facebook (or all of them). - Dave Morin
Yes but Dave you missed everyone's point the value proposition is not in opening up as you would hoped but holding back. Politicians hide info to keep power, corps hide information to keep customers locked in..when users finally have away to route around than that info-lock in has NO POWER..that day is coming Dave very soon - Fred Grott
My comment was intended as a prod between pals. I make it a habit to tease Dave and other friends at FB about the relatively closed nature of some of their platform. I was by no means attempting to jump into the fray regarding OpenSocial/FriendConnect.
That said, as a FB user, while I was thrilled to see them start passing full text emails to me, it does bum me out that I can't reply back to the thread from my regular email inbox. It is an annoyance, and Dave has heard this from me before. This seemed like a fun opportunity to remind him of my #1 feature request.
More importantly, for the record, I am particularly impressed by Dave Morin when I see him participate candidly in public discussions regarding issues like these despite his high profile. Having been in a big company and knowing the effort that it takes to manage internal PR in parallel with community expectations, my hat goes off to him. It is very clear that Dave cares deeply about users and works hard to make them happy. - Christopher Sacca
@fred gott. i'm sure dave would like to know how soon that day is, since you seem to have such a clear idea. - Eric Eldon
WRT the lowest bidding contractor theory, hows about some of the more financially comfortable devs offer up their services in the form of govt contracts with outrageously low bids. Put your money where your mouth is so to speak. - Erica Baker
@eric listen to Gillmor Gang its closer than u think - Fred Grott
@Fred we agree on a lot of this. i was put off, however, by your antagonistic language towards dave, who has been at the forefront of opening up social network data to third parties for quite some time now. - Eric Eldon
@eric users wanting their data as free as possible has none of the tone you subscribe to me - Fred Grott
@Fred how many Facebook users want their data free right now? - Eric Eldon
Better if govs give access to the raw data. In my experience, trying to get a decent api from a gov department is kind of tricky. If you get the raw data there are plenty of companies & non-profits who are willing & able to build decent APIs around it. - Nick Lothian
@eric its not free part as u imply we want useful data that can only come about by full data-portability no user will ask for free or data portability because they do not know it as that. - Fred Grott
@fred i fundamentally agree with you. i just think facebook gets too much shit for "not going far enough" even though it has been the (social networking) industry leader in data-sharing. just look at how myspace was treating third party developers in previous years. this is a process. - Eric Eldon
This is what will happen more often with FriendFeed - items that appear and are discussed here will become news more and more. Expect this to happen more often. - Ben Parr
agree with Eric Eldon's take on Dave's comment. facebook maybe deserves a little bit of shit for not always being transparent on the PR, but seriously they get waaaaaaay too much crap for being "proprietary" about their innovation & leadership. folks that really want new & cool stuff should also realize that there is a cost to risk-taking & research, and that is often recouped via proprietary measures. and if it ISN'T uniquely innovative, other competitors will take down their walls with better shit. - dave mcclure
“Now that the twins are here, it's obvious we won't fit in the Honda Civic or Mercury Tracer. Without breaking the budget (or slashing our MPGs), what car/SUV/wagon do you recommend?”
Toyota Camry Hybrid, maybe? Not as trendy as the Prius, but uses the same drivetrain. The Prius is pretty much sold out until next year, anyway. There's a hybrid Highlander if you really must ... - Chris Baskind
The goal here is to fit four people in, including 2 car seats, plus dragging along stroller, diaper bag, and groceries on occasion. That might rule out the Camry. - Louis Gray
minivans are tangible evidence of evil. - Hao Chen
leave the kids at home, i will babysit - Allen Stern
Allen, given one already works for you, I think I'm looking for someone who wouldn't already be around the kids 8 or so hours a day. But thanks! - Louis Gray
The Camry is roomy for a midsize sedan, and gas prices at the end of a 3 to 5 year note could be pretty shocking. But if you're really hankering for big, you might want to watch the Chevy Tahoe hybrid. GM only sold about a thousand of them in May, and I'd expect discounts soon on the order of $4500 plus plum financing. - Chris Baskind
I have been in love with my Honda CR-V since the day I got it 3 1/2 yrs ago. Hondas rock the family transport thing - as they tend to rank highest in child safety year after year. They were the first with curtain side-airbags standard. Nice to drive w/ great gas mileage and fantastic handling. Converted me away from Saturns. Definitely check out the CR-V. (geez, I sound like a cult member...sorry - but I love that car.) - Lucretia Pruitt
unfortunately, size does matter when it comes to MPG, hence increasing family is inevitably means longer gas bill and more CO2 into common air - silpol
I'd recommend Pilot over CRV; the new CRV is so sporty, it goes down on utility. - Parth Awasthi
I have three children so if we have anymore we are going to have to upgrade as well! - Joe Dawson (beta)
Whatever you pic, I recommend that it be very gas efficient. I predict a rise in gas prices ;) - Dustin McLaughlin
