Jason Dettbarn

And: I've read a large mountain of their internal writings -- I think I have a handle on them. - Sean McBride

And: the target list of the neocons often seems to be unlimited, and includes China, Russia, Europe and traditional liberals and conservatives in the United States. We are looking here at a messianic and totalitarian cult, not a traditional American political movement of any kind. The cult dimension of neoconservatism explains why the neocons are so cozy with Christian Armageddonists like John Hagee. - Sean McBride

When the NYTimes rejected McCain's OpEd piece, one of the reasons they gave is that he wrote that the US needed to win, but never defined winning. The advocates of this war have been cagey, slippery, and ultimately deceptive about defining the win. Occasionally, it peeks through. For the neocons, winning is staying. For the rest of us winning is leaving. - Michael Markman

Michael: for the neocons, "winning" means crushing more than one billion Muslims worldwide -- it's a message that comes through loud and clear in their internal writings. Crushing Islam globally also means crushing any Europeans and Americans who get in the way of their holy crusade -- thus their perpetual barrage of hate speech against traditional liberals and conservatives in both America and Europe, and their relentless efforts to develop a police state culture domestically. McCain has put himself and his reputation at the disposal of this cult. - Sean McBride

@Dave: Thought provoking but I don't think it's that simple. Blog response at http://tinyurl.com/5jw4zs - James Joyner

@Dave: Thought provoking but I don't think it's that simple. Blog response at http://tinyurl.com/5jw4zs - James Joyner

James Joyner relies on an official Bush speech to define the supposed and deceptive objectives of the Iraq War, rather than on the internal documents within the neoconservative community which define their real strategic plan and agenda. It barely scratches the surface of the issue. By the way, Iraq was not involved in 9/11 (as the neocons claimed), possessed no WMDs (as the neocons claimed), and was never involved in terrorism against Americans. The chief effect of the war has been to greatly increase the power of Iran and Muslim fundamentalists in the region. - Sean McBride

On the real objectives of neocons in Iraq and the Mideast: Read the writings of Benjamin Netanyahu, Daniel Pipes, David Frum, David Horowitz, David Wurmser, Dore Gold, Douglas Feith, John Podhoretz, Joshua Muravchik, Mark Steyn, Michael Ledeen, Norman Podhoretz, Pamela Geller, Richard Perle, William Kristol, etc. Joyner referenced none of these authors in his analysis. They were the chief architects of the Iraq War. - Sean McBride

"There is no such thing as winning an occupation. You either continue to occupy or withdraw. It's semantic nonsense to apply the verb "win" to the noun "occupation."" exactly! now lets take this even further. how about holding the people responsible behind this unjust war? http://www.prosecutionofbush.c... let's take the Iraq War debate back into first principles. - ~C4Chaos

Lol, Jesse Jackson is one crazy ass mofo. - Andrew Fielding

Keith Olbermann had a good one on Obama and FISA. In case you missed it: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25... - Alexei Tolkachev

What's next on Obama's agenda over the next four or eight years, after the FISA thing -- inquiring minds want to know. - Sean McBride

Turley had some great words about it on MSNBC last night... in my recent feed. - Anthony Citrano

Jesse doesn't do cowering either. ;) - Jay Tannenbaum

america needs more chaos before enough energy for change gets created, obama is our man for that - Gregory Lent

you're joking, of course - however don't be surprised if you're contacted by secret service for this "threat"... :-) - Andy Green

Anyone who has seen the content of the unwarranted wiretaps has fully supported them.... not saying that makes it right but it does make them necessary. - Aaron deMello

Aaron -- can you document your statement about the content of unwarranted wiretaps? - Sean McBride

Nothing makes them "necessary". What's happening now is exactly the type of oppression the sons of liberty revolted against. - Adam Turetzky

Even if _everyone_ "supported" the wiretaps based on the content, Aaron...the point is that it's not good enough. We have laws. - Ken Kennedy

@Sean McBride - the tricky part is getting into specifics, which I can't. I am in the surveillance biz (or was, rather) and the ugly aspect for law enforcement is that the 'bad guys' (for lack of a better term) are better armed - with PGP, HushMail, stenography, casual SecondLife or Habbo meetups, etc. Makes it almost impossible to trace their convos. For all the $ in the world I would not want the job of an analyst following up on a FISA warrant. - Aaron deMello

@Ken Kennedy - great name, btw - I agree in principle but data is like fishing - you catch it when its there in front of you, or you kiss it goodbye. The sons of liberty have a very hard time trying to find the balance between protecting our rights and exploiting technology for their goals - which protect our way of life. The FISA laws worked well in the past but today - rest assured that the guys we are looking for are far more adept at exploiting the tools than we allow our boys to be. - Aaron deMello

@Aaron...don't take this the wrong way, but spare me. If it's against the law, you kiss it goodbye. You and I both know that the FISA law as (it was at the time) written allows for "catching it when it's there"...it's just more of a pain. It's DESIGNED to be a pain. We're not /supposed/ to be spying on people without warrants. Once upon a time, we (rightly) condemned other countries for doing this. *sigh* - Ken Kennedy

And please, no movie plots. kthx. *grin* And thanks for chatting, btw. Seriously. We need to have these discussions out in the open; it's important for our society. - Ken Kennedy

@Ken Kennedy - sure, they are designed to be a pain. I just don't think its fair that we have to play the very same game under extremely different rules. Should our lofty ideals be preserved in the name of security? That is the question that will be debated for the next few generations but personally I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those charged with tackling the problem, rather than us - the peanut gallery. - Aaron deMello

@Aaron...you laid that out rather well, thanks. And we disagree (which is ok) on alot. *grin* Probably the most important difference to me is actually at the end there; the peanut gallery comment. We're not the peanut gallery, Aaron...we are where those "charged with tackling the problem" derive their power from. This is no divine right monarchy; we're a cantankerous republic where the people ultimately run the show. Good questions, though! - Ken Kennedy

OMG, what a dumb-ass thing to do for a seasoned media guy like Jesse. FAIL! - John McCrea

If it was a Republican folks woudl be screaming racism. Apparently Jesse gets a pass. - Soulhuntre via twhirl

Had a flash on Obama and FISA. When he's elected Pres he uses FISA authority to legally eavesdrop on George Dubya Bush without court oversight, Private Citizen and ex-president, and leaks the juiciest bits to Olbermann. Puts him on the terror watch list, and while you're at it puts him in Guantanamo. Gives paparzzi full access. - Dave Winer

@Ken Kennedy - agreed. I believe in the end, perhaps not the means. - Aaron deMello

Aaron: How many terrorists have been convicted of terrorist activities in the United States as the result of warrantless wiretapping? How many cases against alleged terrorists have fallen part? How many times have neoconservatives accused their political opponents of being "terrorists"? How many despotic and state terrorist regimes throughout history have used the threat of "terrorism" to acquire and protect their power? So many interesting questions on this issue. - Sean McBride

@Sean - all those are very interesting questions and there are many more. My sentiment is that we are severely outclassed in the war on terror given all the legal restrictions that are not shared by the enemy. Even the simple act of getting a warrant to expose the phone calls of a unidentified pre-paid SIM card can be a living nightmare. How can one get a warrant when you don't even know if the subscriber is a suspect? These and other complex issues are the ones facing the intelligence community today. - Aaron deMello

Dave, I owe you an apology. I was sure you had made up that comment about what Jesse Jackson said. I think Jesse just threw himself under the bus. When is the last time he was relevant? - ha3rvey

I thought the fact that Obama voted for the FISA would be indicative that he was already neutered? - Vidar Andersen

Aaron: history proves that the most dangerous terrorists in the world are state terrorists, like the Nazi, Stalinist and Maoist regimes, which collectively murdered more than 100 million people in the 20th century. State terrorists typically define all their political opponents as "terrorists," and then proceed to spy on them, torture them and murder them without any legal restraints. The values of the neoconservatives who have dominated the Bush administration are directly antithetical to those of the visionaries who created the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. - Sean McBride

Aaron: If I don't break into your house to find the dismembered bodies, how can I prove that you're an axe murderer? - David Worrell

Dave, Obama's vot eon FISA was simply a political consideration. Need to get him elected, then fix the FISA problem. - ron k jeffries

Aaron: focusing on the first question: to the best of my knowledge, no one has been convicted of being a terrorist or being involved in terrorist activities as a result of warrantless wiretapping. Do you agree? I don't think it's worth trashing the Constitution and Bill of Rights to promote police state methods that were pioneered by Stalin and Hitler and that have produced such meager results. - Sean McBride

Ron: Obama's position on FISA demonstrates that he is politically tone deaf and may well not get elected. What made him a viable candidate was the enthusiasm of his base, which he has now destroyed. Most Americans do not support the FISA bill -- it's not even a "center" issue. It's a hard right neoconservative issue. Check out the discussion of this controversy on On Point Radio today <http://tinyurl.com/6crxv6> and especially note the exchanges between Tom Ashbrook and Glenn Greenwald. - Sean McBride

Ron, respectfully: I don't think it's right to 'play politics' with a bill that undercuts the constitutional balance of power itself. I'll still vote for him. But this makes him just another 'lesser evil' to me. - Madsimian

Dave Winer makes an important point: once a police state machine and culture is installed in any government, it will be used by any political faction that acquires control of it to destroy the political opposition. The American Founding Fathers were acutely aware of this problem, and that is why they created the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. Bush 43 and the neocons are perhaps the most anti-American and anti-democratic political movement ever to arise to a position of commanding power in the United States. - Sean McBride

Harvey, he's relevant to the companies he's shaken down for money and donations for percieved abuses. - Jason Shultz via twhirl

Sean: we will never know the answer to that question, which is the entire purpose of the warrant-less wire-tapping program. The results of the program were never going to be used as evidence, at least not in a public court. Like I said before, there are always challenges in a democracy where the need to balance public safety with personal privacy becomes a very gray area. As to the effectiveness of the program, this is something else we will never know, since we have no idea how many attacks were prevented. - Aaron deMello

Aaron: any totalitarian dictator anywhere in the world, following in the footsteps of Stalin, Hitler and Mao, could use some of the arguments we have seen here to construct a terrorist police state that is completely unaccountable. Neocons like John Yoo, David Addington and Alberto Gonzales really don't get America and the thinking of the American Founding Fathers, in my opinion. They are paranoid authoritarians by temperament who fear a free and open society which encourages political dissent. - Sean McBride

some say Jackson has a point?! not! http://www.slate.com/id/219490... - ~C4Chaos

Sean: Paranoia does play a part in it, and some paranoia can be healthy. At the same time, I'd rather have hawks than doves protecting my freedoms, and will grant them the wiggle room necessary to do what they feel must be done. What did you think of the voting numbers? 69 to 28? - Aaron deMello

Aaron: any political movement which thinks nothing of trashing the Constitution, while labeling its mainstream American political opponents as "terrorists" and "traitors" (yes, the neocons have done this repeatedly -- check out the log of these events on Media Matters for America), is only interested in destroying our freedoms, not protecting them. The neocons are the last people in the world who should be trusted with any control over police state technologies and institutions in the United States. (Are you aware that Nazis rose to power in Germany under the pretext of protecting Germans from "the terrorists"?) - Sean McBride

As has been pointed out to me, it's not the fault of the telcos that Bush and company failed to get the necessary warrants (which they can legally do after the fact). So there's good reason to protect the telcos from civil trials. Remember, it was Bush who broke the law. Don't make this about Obama. He didn't violate the 4th Amendment. That was the President, who's sworn to protect and uphold the Constitution. - phil.gs

Based on the FISA vote, there's nothing to cut. - Michael Markman

Like Sacca :) - Paul Buchheit

Yeah, news feed too. Thanks. - Sam Pullara

Photos are the biggest thing. Facebook is to a large extent a photo sharing site, but their TOS prohibit you from doing anything interesting with the photos -- they're trapped inside FB. - Paul Buchheit

Yes, Mr. Morin. Tear. Down. This. Wall. - MG Siegler

I also want photos to flow into Facebook from other repositories. Display my Flickr photos in Facebook and let people tag them please. - Benjamin Golub

Man with all the hypocrisy, it really stinks in here. - Gavin

does not gov have the same exact motivation for not opening up as facebook? - Fred Grott

These guys are making headway: http://www.everyblock.com/ - Andy Wibbels

I agree.... Tear Down This Wall! - Stefan Hayden

@sacca's point is fun, but it's a fact that the gov's data is ours, and debatable that FB's is. Both would be great, but the Gov's should happen yesterday. - Nate Koechley

First, government data is created through taxpayer dollars and since we all kinda have an ownership stake in the gov, we should have access to its data. FB data is FB's, per their TOS. Second, FB has data that is more valuable than other services -- it's a big business decision for them to be more open or not, and imho it's not clear if being more open is worth it to them at this point. Update: I see Nate already said basically the same thing. Anyway..... - Eric Eldon

Unfortunately most government organizations get the lowest-bidding contractors to build their content which usually means lock-in to proprietary data and clunky 'net applications. Just check out some of their intranets. IE6-only VBscript running on 10-year old proprietary multimillion dollar software - Glenn Batuyong via twhirl

I've seen a lot of agencies just mirror "what works at other government offices" which tends to perpetuate this cycle of technical stagnation. Some orgs do get the message and it's usually because of some introduction of Web 2.0 technology into certain facets. However, it needs to be internally evangelized and pushed up the ladder to the decision-making personnel (who usually don't understand the need). - Glenn Batuyong via twhirl

oof, this discussion ended up a news item. http://venturebeat.com/2008/07... - David Weekly

Bumping my follow up Twitter comment to FriendFeed comments: Back to my comment on the government. Wouldn't it be awesome to get updates on new laws and programs through the various social feeds? My thoughts on this come from the new cellular phone law in California. I think many people are probably finding out about this for the first time by seeing the blinking signs above the highway. It would be amazing if a notification for a new law came in through twitter, or friendfeed, or facebook (or all of them). - Dave Morin

Yes but Dave you missed everyone's point the value proposition is not in opening up as you would hoped but holding back. Politicians hide info to keep power, corps hide information to keep customers locked in..when users finally have away to route around than that info-lock in has NO POWER..that day is coming Dave very soon - Fred Grott

My comment was intended as a prod between pals. I make it a habit to tease Dave and other friends at FB about the relatively closed nature of some of their platform. I was by no means attempting to jump into the fray regarding OpenSocial/FriendConnect. That said, as a FB user, while I was thrilled to see them start passing full text emails to me, it does bum me out that I can't reply back to the thread from my regular email inbox. It is an annoyance, and Dave has heard this from me before. This seemed like a fun opportunity to remind him of my #1 feature request. More importantly, for the record, I am particularly impressed by Dave Morin when I see him participate candidly in public discussions regarding issues like these despite his high profile. Having been in a big company and knowing the effort that it takes to manage internal PR in parallel with community expectations, my hat goes off to him. It is very clear that Dave cares deeply about users and works hard to make them happy. - Christopher Sacca

outstanding idea - john conroy

@fred gott. i'm sure dave would like to know how soon that day is, since you seem to have such a clear idea. - Eric Eldon

WRT the lowest bidding contractor theory, hows about some of the more financially comfortable devs offer up their services in the form of govt contracts with outrageously low bids. Put your money where your mouth is so to speak. - Erica Baker

@eric listen to Gillmor Gang its closer than u think - Fred Grott

@Fred we agree on a lot of this. i was put off, however, by your antagonistic language towards dave, who has been at the forefront of opening up social network data to third parties for quite some time now. - Eric Eldon

@eric users wanting their data as free as possible has none of the tone you subscribe to me - Fred Grott

@Fred how many Facebook users want their data free right now? - Eric Eldon

Better if govs give access to the raw data. In my experience, trying to get a decent api from a gov department is kind of tricky. If you get the raw data there are plenty of companies & non-profits who are willing & able to build decent APIs around it. - Nick Lothian

@eric its not free part as u imply we want useful data that can only come about by full data-portability no user will ask for free or data portability because they do not know it as that. - Fred Grott

have u seen http://opencongress.org ? it's pretty hot! - Marshall Kirkpatrick via fftogo

@fred i fundamentally agree with you. i just think facebook gets too much shit for "not going far enough" even though it has been the (social networking) industry leader in data-sharing. just look at how myspace was treating third party developers in previous years. this is a process. - Eric Eldon

Whoa! Hot guys are going even hotter ;) http://sexyseo.blogspot.com/20... - Lora Lufark

This is what will happen more often with FriendFeed - items that appear and are discussed here will become news more and more. Expect this to happen more often. - Ben Parr